January 21, 2025 • 43 mins
The trucking industry could transition to a more robust environment after the freight recession of the past two years. A more probusiness Trump administration may spur domestic freight growth and be more sympathetic to the issues facing the trucking industry, according to Chris Spear, president and chief executive officer of the American Trucking Associations. In this Talking Transports podcast, Spear joins Lee Klaskow, Bloomberg Intelligence’s senior transportation and logistics analyst, to share his insights how a more common-sense approach to lower emissions could be better for the industry, environment and economy. Spear also discusses the driver shortage, legal reforms, autonomous trucking and hopes for a return to finding common ground in Washington.
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
I want to welcome to Bloomberg Intelligence Talking Transports Podcast.
I'm your host, Leek Glasgow, Senior Freight Transportation Logistic extend.
Let's at Bloomberg Intelligence, Bloomberg's in house research arm before
diving in a little public a service announcement. Your support
is instrumental to keep bringing great guests on the podcast,
like the one we have today. If you haven't already,
please do take a moment to follow, rate and share
(00:29):
the Talking Transports Podcast. We appreciate your support. I'm very
excited to have Chris Spear, President and Chief executive Officer
of the American Trucking Associations. He serves on the board
of directors for the American Transportation Research Institute, Trucking Cares Foundation,
and the Luisa Swain Foundation. Chris has held a number
of positions in government affairs at the ATA FUNDI Motor Company,
(00:53):
and Honeywell International. He also served in the US federal
government as Deputy Representative for the Coalition Provisional Authority in Iraq.
Prior to this, he was nominated by President George W.
Bush and unanimously confirmed by the US Senate as the
Assistant Secretary of Labor for Policy During his appointment, he
(01:14):
was the President's Senior Advisor the Iraqi Ministry of Labor,
commissioner on the President's Mental Health Commission, and Executive Committee.
Member of the US Architectural and Transportation Barriers Compliance Board.
Before his nomination, Chris worked as a professional staffer in
the US Senate. He's also a graduate of the Honeywell
(01:34):
Executive Development Program, a recipient of Honeywell's Premier Achievement Award,
and was awarded the US Department of Defense Joint Civilian
Service Medal. Heilt to master's and Boucher's degree from the
University of Wyoming. So, go Pokes. Is that right?
Speaker 2 (01:49):
All right?
Speaker 1 (01:50):
Go Pokes? Welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Chris, great to have you, Thanks Lee for having me on.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
Well, I know what the American Trucking Associations does. Could
you let our listener know what your organizations all about.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
Yeah, we're ninety two years in. I'm the ninth person
to lead it as the President and CEO, and it
really is a privilege to go to work each day
and give purpose and a voice to the thirty three
thousand plus members of the ATA and it's fifty state
Federation of State Trucking associations, and that voice is extraordinarily
(02:27):
important lee as we're moving seventy two and a half
percent of the domestic freight in the United States. One
in eighteen jobs in the US is trucking. The top
job in twenty nine states is trucking, and that stems
from eight to half million people supporting our industry and
everything that you and I eat drank where it came
(02:48):
off a truck. And there's a really hard working, patriotic
part of our person and part of our industry that
made that happen, and we give them a voice, We
give them the ability to to be taken into account
when big decisions are made, whether they be in the
House or Senate here in Washington, one of our regulatory agencies,
(03:09):
or in state houses by governors and elected state legislatures.
So we're very involved in shaping outcomes that are beneficial
not just to our industry and our customers, but the
economy as a whole. And when you're rood with that
much freightly, it makes a difference. We are generally the
first to feel it when inflation is a factor. You know,
(03:30):
these are these are indicators that our industry is very
familiar with. And so there are a number of issues
going into this new administration that are very very relevant
to us directly and indirectly. And ATA is there to
make certain that we're at the table and that those
outcomes are are forward leaning and not adversarial. Right.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
And I'd like to tip my hat to all the
men and women out there in the driving trucks right
now for us, because as you mentioned, Chris, they are
very important only to our economy, but to our to
our daily lives. So thank you for all the sacrifices
that you make because a lot of those folks don't
get to go home every night to see their family.
They're on the road for days and weeks at a time,
(04:11):
So appreciate that. So on the ATA, so you know,
we have a new administration coming into the office in
a couple of days here as we're reporting this, you know,
can you just talk about, you know, what are the
biggest priorities for the ATA with this new administration? Has
that changed, you know, maybe maybe let us know, you know,
(04:31):
what are the most important things the ATA is working
on behalf of the industry.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
Well, I think two things up front are important to
note is that we we regularly pulse our members to
ensure that we really have a real time understanding of
the pressures they face each and every day in the
real world. Washington, not unbelievably is the real world. We
do not have a general understanding of you know, those
folks that don't go home every night that you just mentioned.
(04:58):
We need to really take that perspective regularly into account
and prioritize those issues accordingly. And then second to that
is then it really becomes questioning not really what we want,
but what we can get, and that varies from administration
to administration. Who controls the House and Senate, these are
(05:20):
all factors that determine where those priorities are ranked, the
strategies we adopt and implement to create those outcomes. So
obviously a major shift from the Biden administration, you know,
to the Trump administration the second round here in Washington.
But also in addition to a Republican majority in the House,
(05:43):
you have a Republican majority in the Senate. So the
ability over the next two years to take a different
approach is something that at is going to be not
only mindful of, but very engaged in. So, yeah, a
landscape that has shifted dramatically in the last three months,
and I believe it is our responsibility to not only
(06:04):
understand that environment, to be able to navigate it successfully
is really key to our success.
Speaker 1 (06:10):
Now, are there certain policies that their Republican Party might
be a little more You know, I guess sympathetic to
the ata's positions.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
I think we're going to see a different approach taken
on several of our key issues. I'd say the leading
issue that we're going to spend the lion's share of
time on, the one that keeps me up mostly at night,
is the emissions. This mad dash to zero that the
Biden administration essentially four footed its jurisdiction nationally to California,
(06:46):
mainly the California Air Resources Board, unlected board of bureaucrats
that have never, in my opinion, worked a hard days
paying their life. They do not understand a cashalist statement.
They've never had to make a quarter, they never had
to hire and fire people. They do not understand business,
and more importantly, they do not understand where the everyday goods,
(07:09):
the things they eat, drink, the medications they take. They
don't seem to appreciate or understand that it is our
industry that serves as the glue of the economy and
providing consumers Californians, you know those essentials, and that's relevant
in every fifty state, not just California. But Biden administration
(07:31):
knew that California could go much faster and avoid a
lot of the entanglements that would occur if the EPA
were to lead nationally, and by handing California the keys,
we have compliance now on movement basically retirement of our
existing and future fleet of low A meeting diesel equipment
(07:52):
to electric commercial vehicles or alternative commercial vehicles, but mainly electric.
That's the emphasis, and a timeline and a target that
is simply unachievable. There is absolutely It's not whether we
want to do it, it's just not feasible. There are
not enough manufactured equipment available to service not just California,
(08:16):
the fourth largest economy in the world, but the entire country.
They're three times more expensive than a brand new diesel.
It takes six to eight hours to charge these vehicles
to go roughly two hundred miles. A diesel takes fifteen
minutes to go twelve hundred miles. By comparisons, the operational
(08:37):
parody is completely in disconnect. Obviously, the infrastructure is not
in place to charge the power on the grids not available.
Even if it were, we aren't sourcing these materials for
the batteries outside of China or the Congo. So these
are all major, major marketed peditents realities. It's not believe
(09:00):
that has to be addressed before you can move forward
with an industry like ours adopting that type of alternative equipment.
So that'll be in the forefront. I think the Trump
administration is going to take a very very different approach
to this, that's much more common sense driven timelines, targets
that are achievable, and in most instances they're they're they're
(09:24):
going to take the reins, they're going to lead, They're
they're not going to concede that to the state of California.
It's not the United States of California, it's American. I
really believe that the Trump administration will be very proactive
and not only you know, ushering in good environmental stewardship,
but doing it in a way that's achievable without not
only bankrupting our industry putting us out of business, but
(09:48):
you know, taking food and and essentials off the shell
for our consumers Americans around the country. So that's probably
number one. I'd say labor access to talent. We have
a driver shortage of around seventy thousand drivers. We really
need to shore that up to grow when you're serving
seventy two and a half percent of the domestic freight.
(10:09):
If you want to grow that, if you want to
move more freight, you're going to have to have more trucks.
More trucks need more drivers. That simple. So putting unnecessary
regulatory burdens the displace a ninety year old model of
independent contractors. That's been an assault not just in California
but by the current administration under acting Labor Secretary of
(10:32):
Julie Sue. So we need to see the Trump administration
change that environment, be more pro worker, pro choice, pro trucking,
and that helps the economy as a result. And I'd
say beyond that, the nuclear verdicts are an issue set
that will carry forward from a very very sympathetic Biden
administration to the point of spar to a Trump administration
(10:55):
that is less concerned about chasing ambulances than it is
to you know, owning our to any accidents that are
our fault. We own those, those are our responsibility to
make whole. But beyond that, purposely swaying juries on evidence
that had nothing to do with accidents involving our trucks.
This is a gainmanship that's been implemented purposefully by the
(11:17):
plane of spar verdicts. You know, in excess of one
hundred million dollars are putting companies in jeopardy, if not
out of business, and thousands of people out of work
as a result. That is not in the interests of
anyone but trial lawyers. So I think this administration coming
in Trump administration will be taking a much more common
(11:40):
sense approach to all three of these issues sets, and
we welcome that because I think that that will be
certainly good for the good for the economy as a whole.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
Right, And I guess on the you know, you were
talking about the emissions the EPA as news standards coming
in to affect twenty twenty seven. Do you think that
the Trump administration can and will maybe push those out?
Do they have the ability to do that?
Speaker 2 (12:09):
Yeah? I think a lot of these are driven by
California's timelines and within those requirements, targets that are unachievable.
Even our manufacturers say that these are completely you know,
the engineering capability, the innovation to hit these targets are impossible. Again,
you know, bureaucrats and cubicles that have never worked or
(12:29):
invented anything are are enforcing these without any discussions with
the industry, just basically saying, go do it. I think
the Trump administration will revoke those waivers given by five
DPA to California, isolate California, mainly carb California Air Resources Board,
and in doing so, I think California is going to
(12:52):
be under a tremendous amount of pressure to to you know,
curtail inflation to make certain that there are economy grows.
They're going to have to take their their their you know,
basically their foot off the industry's throat. They're having a
lot of problems economically, I think within the within the state,
(13:12):
you know, our ability to serve over eighty percent of
the communities in California alone depend on truck Putting trucks
off the road is not going to help their economy.
So I think they're going to have to issue a
lot of waivers to their requirements, but isolating them and
not letting it spread to other states that generally tend
to adopt California standards. Uh, that's an approach that I
(13:34):
could see the Trump administration taking and leading nationally. We
operate in all fifty states. It's not like we have
businesses that solely run in each state, crossing state lines
all the time, just like airplanes, just like rail just
like ships. And we need to be able to operate
seamlessly under one framework of regulatory requirements. And that harmony
(13:58):
is something that I think not like preserves what we've
enjoyed since the birth of the country is something that
the Trump administration will reinstate.
Speaker 1 (14:06):
Yeah, and just on the environmental aspect and the ev
aspect that I would recommend to our listeners you should
check out the first episode we ever did of the
Talking Transport. It's with the ata's old chairman, not old
because he's an old man, but he's past chairman, Andrew Boyle.
He talked about a lot about the differences and some
(14:27):
of the solutions in a very impassionate way. So I
would recommend that for anyone that wants to go back
and listen. So, you know, you mentioned, you know, driver
shortage earlier, what would the ATA like to see to
curtail the driver shortage or to get to increase that pool,
because at the end of the day, you know, as
we mentioned at the onset of this episode, you know,
(14:49):
trucking is.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
Not an easy job, and so there is a lot
of churn.
Speaker 1 (14:53):
When people get into the industry initially, you know, because
they come in and they have certain expectations and they
just the job to doesn't meet those expectations, and so,
you know, the first year there's a lot of churn.
So how do you guys propose increasing that pool of
perspective folks that are that are looking to join a
trade like trucking.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
Well, I think I think we we need to build
awareness in communities, particularly that aren't familiar with trucking. We
don't move fifty three foot trailers or twenty twenty eights
in major metropolitan areas, you know, like like Dallas, Atlanta, Houston,
even Baltimore. These places are are including a whole host
(15:35):
of you know, talent that could be you know, from
an early age to those that have you know, been unemployed, veterans,
exiting service people, women, Uh, there's a there's a whole
host of demographics within the workforce that we would like
to become more familiar with trucking, and I think urban
(15:57):
environments are an area where we were of lacked awareness.
So I really think building that is going to be
essential in drawing more minorities, more women, more people who
are unemployed. You can make you a very decent living
with full benefits in our industry without a college degree
and all the debt that comes with it. So I
(16:18):
think looking at all those demographics, starting with eighteen to
twenty year olds, where we're prohibited from recruiting those folks
to cross state lines by federal standards. Despite the fact
that forty nine out of fifty states allow an eighteen
year old to drive a Class eight, you just can't
cross state lines. That works pretty well in you know, Alaska, California, Texas,
(16:39):
but if you're in Rhode Island you could drive thirty
minutes in any direction and hit a state border. That's
not going to really help, right, So we need to
train young people properly, like we do in our military.
We send eighteen nineteen twenty year olds to go off
and detect our freedom and do the unthinkable. I'm pretty
sure we could teach him how to responsibly operate a
class eight across state lines. So training is key. Starting
(17:04):
I'm young is also essential in terms of keeping them
in the industry long term. They will make a really,
really good living, as I said, without that college degree
and all the debt that's ensued. I think anywhere where
we're working with veterans who are essentially in need of employment,
(17:24):
A lot of times when people exit the military, they're
lost in the etherarth we don't haven't made that connection already.
This is where where veterans generally turn to, you know,
substance abuse, homelessness. These are all things that are just
they're tragic, the tragedies people are served our country. So
we need to take care and make it certain that
we channel those folks toward good paying jobs. They can
(17:47):
look up by zip code where they're going to be,
you know, living when they exit. To ensure that they're
already connected with an HR department, with a company and
have a job as they severed. Make it certain that
they're not unemployed when they come out. These are all
things that we can and do collectively with Apartments of
Defense Veterans Affairs as well as the Apartment of Labor.
So we're going to be looking at that. I think women.
(18:08):
We have an eight percent participation rate for drivers that
are female. Why is that. If you talk to women,
they will tell you that, you know, secure well, that
truck parking is key. They don't feel safe getting out
of the truck. Who would blame them? I mean it
is a very very difficult job in certain segments and
(18:29):
for long haul, particularly when you're out there on your own.
We need truck parking. We have one on one space
for every eleven drivers. They spend an average of fifty
six minutes a day looking for a truck parking spot.
And that's lost wages of well over six thousand dollars
a year coming out of their pocket looking for truck parking.
(18:52):
And they're required by federal law to take that break.
So federal government, if they're going to do that, which
they should should rest, should also give them a place
to do it, not on on and off ramps, not
an insecure, poorly lit environments. And that will be a
huge benefit to women joining the workforce. So we're going
(19:14):
to be focused on that, and as I said, urban
environments as well, that you know, broaden the minority participation.
We really want to get people familiar with trucks. They
don't see them downtown. We need to find ways to
penetrate that that workforce pool, that talent pool. So these
are all things you have to do simultaneously to grow
the pool of talent long term within the industry. And
(19:37):
then remove the regulatory agenda that caters to union bosses.
And I stress union bosses, they're not representing the working class.
They're representing themselves and shedding the independent contractor model which
has been in place lead for ninety years. Talk to
an independent contractor, don't talk to me, don't talk to
(19:59):
a union boss. Go to the independent contractor and ask them,
why did you take this job? Well, I want seasonal work,
I want part time work, I have another job here,
whatever the reason, that's their choice. They decided that path.
Nobody put a gun to their head and forced them
to do that for less pay or no benefits. And
(20:20):
the California AB five rule, the Biden Department of Labor
rule is intentionally meant to rode that choice and channel
people into labor unions. Now, I'm not anti labor unions.
If you want to join a union, join a union,
you should also have the right not to join a union,
and that's because they are struggling to grow their membership,
(20:44):
so they're going to the federal government and states and
asking them to change the rules, basically the pro Act
that removes choice. So we got to get rid of
that agenda and stop listening to people that are self serving,
start listening to the actual people that are doing the work,
and you'll find a growing environment where people want to
be part of that. And that's, in my opinion, lead
(21:05):
how you grow a workforce?
Speaker 1 (21:07):
Right, just I don't know if you know the answer
to this, but you know you're mentioning the fact, you know,
which I always found interesting that to do interstate traffic
you have to be twenty one years or older in
the trucking industry. What has been the pushback of keeping
that age so high and is do you know why
(21:28):
they came up with that number originally?
Speaker 2 (21:31):
I really don't have a good answer for how it
was put in place. I can tell you that forty
nine out of fifty states. Obviously, why exclude it. You
can't drive interesting farmers there without getting wet. But for
the others, Alaska in the lower forty eight, you could
drive a Class eight at AJT, and I'd never heard
(21:52):
anyone who's opposed to it federally ever lobby or oppose
any of those forty eight nine states from implementing those laws.
Now here's what's interesting is that what we're asking for
to drive across state line is training. Actually four hundred
hours of training include two hundred forty hours with a
skilled driver season driver in the cab with the eighteen
(22:16):
to twenty year old, teaching them how to operate that
equipment safely and responsibly. There's not one of the forty
nine that has any training or technology attached to their requirement,
kind of loose, including California Clinting, you can drive from
Retting down to San Diego and back as an eighteen
year old, no training, no technology on the tractor required.
(22:41):
We're actually federally to cross state lines asking for four
hundred hours. That's a step toward safety, Lee, that's not
a step away. So we feel that we're more than
adequately addressing that shortfall that that claim in spades, And
not once did I hear those folks that are posing
it federally lobby against those date rules. They really want
(23:01):
to attack safety, you know, attached training and technology in
those fifty states. They're not doing that. We are, and
so I really believe that this is a sensible, responsible
approach to safety and getting young people engaged in our industry.
Long term, we're losing them to other trades. They're going
into other trades where there be you know, other skills,
(23:23):
and for those that wash out at twenty nine, thirty
thirty one years old, then they come to us. That's
not right. We should be able to compete for the
same people that the electricians do, the roofers, the plumbers,
all the others. We should be able to compete for
that same talent pool. And we believe this is a
law that Congress can put forward the dot and force
(23:44):
that will do just.
Speaker 1 (23:46):
You know, you mentioned maybe the more friendly environment that
a Trump administration might be for the trucking industry and
probably business as well. You know, some of the things
they talked about is being tough for an immigration with
that having impact on the trucking.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
Industry at all, it can Yeah, I mean that is
a viable source of talent. We would argue for legal
immigration purely, and if you did follow that, there are
some visa categories that could be very beneficial temporarily without
displacing And I would really want to stress that because
(24:22):
when you have a shortage of seventy thousand drivers bringing
in one year visa, which is currently available in the thousands,
not seventy thousand, but low thousands, maybe expanding that to
a two year that they can operate and then go
back home and reapply if they choose. But the two
(24:43):
year is better for us because once they get familiar
with the work, then they're sent back, so a year
goes by really quick. So a two year would be
a wonderful change that will temporarily shore up that shortage,
but more importantly, it wouldn't displace anyone. And that's been
an ongoing claim by the labor bosses. Oh you're putting
all these people out. No we're not, No, we're not
(25:05):
nowhere the autonomous vehicles. When you have a shortage of
that size, you're looking for solutions that chip away at it,
even if they're temporary like this would be, and it's
not displacing anybody. That is an absolute ridiculous argument. So
I think it's a very sensible approach. But you know,
suffice it to say, this is administration that's going to
(25:27):
take a very hard stand against illegal immigration, shoring up
the border, and I don't think they're going to get
to expanding legal immigration until a lot of that's put
in place. And yeah, I think after the first second
quarter of this year, we'll have a better opportunity to
sit down and talk about the legal immigration changes that
could be beneficial without putting any American workers out.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
Of work, right you know. Also, you know this is
somewhat driver related with the legalization of marijuana and a
lot of states, you know, the use of marijuana is
still illegal from a federal standpoint, and therefore it's it's
illegal for truck drivers to test positively for it. Do
you guys support relaxing that law at all, or you're
(26:15):
fine with the status quo, or would you rather like
to take it a step further and try to mandate
hair folical testing, which is a lot more rigorous than
your analysis.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
It may surprise some people because it runs a foul
of bringing more people into the industry, but we don't
want somebody that's impaired getting behind the wheel of an
eighty thousand pound bans period. We're just not going to
sacrifice safety for displacing the shortage so that's that's obviously
again ad burden is people want to use legally recreational
(26:52):
marijuana and a dozen plus states Canada. It's putting a
lot of pressure on industries like ours that are regulated
on substance abuse Federally. You cannot be impaired and operate
this equipment. And so there's this channel conflict between these
states Canada and our federal rules and it puts our
(27:15):
industry sort of in the middle of it. And so
what is it? We have to constantly go to this
administration and again with the Trump administration coming back in
as well as a new Congress, and really educate them
on that do you really want people impair it behind
the wheel of an eight thousand pounds vehicle. It's just
a matter of time for you know, a major accident occurs.
(27:36):
And I've made very clear to those that I've talked
to that one will be on you because we've been
up here asking for more tools, hair, follicle testing, things
that give you a better purview to opioids and dealing
with that crisis. You know, obviously beyond weed, you know,
drivers that want to drive longer, stay awake, they're going
(27:56):
to take something that's going to keep them awake, and
you know weed anstices doesn't do that, So they're going
to you know, go to things that are opioid based
that'll that'll provide that. And we just simply have got
to eradicate this from our industry in order to be safe.
Safety comes first and we're not going to compromise on that.
Speaker 1 (28:16):
Lee.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
I think we've been very clear beyond your analysis. We
should allow here follicle testing. We should be the safest
industry in America. It's good for the motor Republic, it's
good for insurance, liability, everything, all those nuclear verdicts. We
don't want anybody in pair being on the wheel, and
we're going to stand for them on this.
Speaker 1 (28:35):
Okay. Another regulatory thing that's going on at the Federal
Motor Carry Safety Administration or the f m SCA as
people know it, Do you have it? Does the AT
have a view on their broker transparency rules that are
that are working their way in Washington?
Speaker 2 (28:53):
Yeah? I do. I think what they put out there
exceeds their staff toy jurisdiction first and foremost. They'll find
that out when they try to enforce it, because it'll
get litigated maybe not by us, but certainly by somebody
impacted that's vested in that model. And our industry has
many companies within it that that provide those services, you know,
(29:17):
between shippers and and and so on to manage that segment.
And uh, they're going to be adversely impacted by these
rules if they go forward. So I wouldn't be too surprised.
First and foremost, if the agency has not exceeded their jurisdiction.
I'd also say that it's it's just an it's adding
more paperwork requirements that no one over there is going
(29:37):
to ever read lee, right, I mean, it's just it's
almost like self preservation for bureaucracy. It's like, oh, now
we need more people to read all this stuff. I mean,
they have trouble just getting through comments on rules. How
are they going to you know, read regular reporting requirements
under this regime when they have absolutely no structure and
and and staff there to do it. So it's almost
a justification for more bureaucrats. So that seems to go
(30:02):
counter to what this incoming administration is going to be posing.
So we'll see where it goes. The npr m's out.
The comments are up in a week's time. We are
not in favor of it, partly because we don't think
they have the jurisdiction to do it by law, and
they certainly don't have the budget and the staff to
oversee that kind of reporting requirement. And I really don't
(30:23):
think in the end it's going to have the impact
that they intended to.
Speaker 1 (30:26):
Okay, so just leaving Washington for a little bit, I
know you're going to be said to hear that. But
you know, outside of rates, what's kind of the biggest
challenge for the trucking industry outside of the regulatory sphere.
Speaker 2 (30:41):
Well, I think, you know, the last two years have
been extraordinarily difficult for our industry to grow capacities ted.
I think rates if fluctuated now just contract rates, spot rates.
It's just made it a very very difficult fuel prices
inflation at forty year highs. You know, people wonder why
President Trump won. That's it. Biden administration blew it. They
(31:03):
did not pay attention to the kitchen table economics in
this country. They completely ignored it. And you know, the
issues they did focus on didn't bring them any new voters.
And that's the contrast between Biden and Trump in this decision,
and I think it's prelude to where we're going to
go is a more you know, focus on on on economics,
(31:30):
lowering inflation, really bring the manufacturing back to the US,
really focusing on American workers, including pay, training, and so on.
And I truly believe these are the fundamentals that were
dismissed under the Biden administration will get a lot more
attention under Trump. So, you know, when I look at
the challenges we've had, particularly in the last two years,
(31:52):
we're very optimistic going forward that twenty five will be
a great transition year. We're starting to see you know,
an in client gradual It's not going to be anything
dramatic out of the gate, but I think by twenty
six that the fundamentals are put in place under this
incoming administration, twenty six beyond, it's going to be very
very good and productive for the industry, not just retail, housing, construction,
(32:16):
and manufacturing. Those are the three buckets that are economist
Bob Costella speaks to. And if we see all three,
you know, leaning favorably, that's going to have a very
very big, measurable impact on our industry success.
Speaker 1 (32:31):
All Right, I love Bob Costell hi above Castell's that, yeah,
we do doo. So, you know, fraud has become a
huge problem for the industry. What is the ATA doing
to help fight fraud or you know, maybe suggest new
legislation that can help fight fraud.
Speaker 2 (32:50):
Yeah, you know, I've taken a few I think much
deserve shots at the current administration, but I will say
there are there are a number of things that we've
worked proactically with them on, including truck parking. They've allocated
nearly five hundred million dollars truck parking out of discretionary funds.
People put. Judge has been phenomenal on that issue. It
resonates with him. We've had great events at the White
(33:12):
House on apprenticeship. I think I think, uh, you know,
I'm looking at theft and fraud. It really doesn't matter
if you're a deer and r. I don't know that
there is a constituency out there of electorate that that
believes that that's a good thing. So, you know, the
upshot here is that we try to understand the problem
(33:34):
not just by segment within our industry, but regionally, locally,
where it's occurring, how it's occurring. It takes on various degrees.
You have organized crime, you have some that is domestic,
but you have candidly a lot that's happening from abroad
through hacking. They're going into the bill laden, they're changing it,
they're changing the route on the delivery as far as
(33:57):
the driver knows he's going to a legitimate drop, legitim
and drop because that's what it says on the computer
and they reprogrammed it, sent that load there and then
it's gone. So that's very high tex sophisticated stuff that's
well beyond our border, and we need federal support for that,
not just state local. But there's a lot of random
stuff too that happens that that we need to attack.
(34:18):
And it's interesting because it's gotten so badly that, you know,
before I think a lot of carriers didn't want to
talk about it because it's embarrassing, right, you know, you
don't want your customers know that you got hit. That
disclosure may you know, determine from doing business with you.
It's so widespread now and it's not just us, it's rail,
it's others that are dealing with this problem. And everybody's
(34:42):
now talking about it. And once that happens, we begin
to understand where it is and we can help work
with law enforcement to target those problems specifically. So we're
just not throwing money out there left and right. We
all know it's a problem, but how do you focus
it on, you know, where it exist and enable law
enforcement to do its job. And we've had some really
(35:04):
good success federally, state and local through our Law Enforcement
Advisory Committee, who's made up of a lot of retired
and active law enforcement officials at all levels, of really
capturing this issue. And I think I think we're going
to make some progress. And I'm quick to applaud the
Biden administration for noting it. I think the Trump administration
will do the exact same thing. It benefits everybody to
(35:28):
attack fraud and cargo theft absolutely.
Speaker 1 (35:32):
You know, I was as curious, does the ATA have
a position on autonomous trucking? You guys like all for
it or are you wary of it? Where do you guys?
Where do you see that going? Well?
Speaker 2 (35:45):
I think we're in favor of innovation. I've always said
that we should never be afraid of technology. Technology, you know,
improves everything that we do. Where we are today versus
where we were ten years ago. It's remarkable, including and trucking,
so fleet management, telematics, the ability to see your fleet
(36:05):
where it's operating, where there's inclement weather, rerouting. There are
a whole host of factors that can make and streamline
our industry, carrier by carrier, much more safely and effectively
through technology, safety technology, from collision mitigation systems, you know,
governing speeds to analog breaks. These are all things that
(36:26):
are good for our industry and carriers down to the
driver drowned of the motoring public when it comes to
automation again, going back to the displacement, we've got seventy
thousand you know workers, we're short drivers. We're not going
to displace them with with autonomous vehicles. And you're not
going to see these running in all fifty states. My
state of Wyoming. Yeah, talking about inclement weather, we get
(36:49):
wins over one hundred miles an hour daily and parts
of I eighty or are very very treacherous in the
winter particularly, you're not going to be able to operate
that equipment and that kind of environments. So you're probably
going to see it more operating in the Southwest where
that's not an issue. Light them run lanes. If they're
safe and proven, they're not going to displace any drivers.
(37:10):
They'll move a little bit more freight, they'll chip away
at that shortage, and they'll allow us to grow from
seventy two and a half percent, you know, maybe seventy five.
So you know, I'm not intimidated by that. I think
I think levels one, two, three, even four are going
to make the driver more alert, more aware, more successful
in doing their job. And candidly, the more knowledgeable they
(37:33):
are on technology, the better paid and marketable they are.
So these are all beneficial to the existing driver pool
beyond fully autonomous level five. So no, I'm not concerned
about it.
Speaker 1 (37:45):
Right Is there is there anything else like on your
radar that's related to that's facing the freight transtation logistics industry.
Speaker 2 (37:53):
No, I think we really hit on them. The issues
we've been dealing with, environment, labor, and believe you know,
lawsuit abuse rampant in the States. Uh, these are three
primary issues that are going to spill over from the
Biden administration of the trop administration. Some of it will
attack on the Hill some of the Department's administration, and
(38:13):
I think the rest of it will be in the
state houses. I would just struct stress that the ATA
for ninety two years is put itself in a position
better than most associations in the country. H Our Federation
of fifty State Trucking Associations has reached. We've got presents
in every state and congressional district, every state house. We
(38:36):
know the governors. Uh, we can turn on a dime
and I don't have to spend millions, if not billions
of dollars on TV ads and you know by campaigns
that compete with you know, the trial lawyers or the
union bosses or the environmental lobby. We just roll up
our sleeves and do what we do and it resonates
with these and rs. So we just keep doing what
(38:57):
we're doing. League. I think our story sells regardless. It's
an American story. It's one that we all rely on,
doesn't matter what party affiliation you are. I always say,
roads and bridges aren't Democrat or republic and we all
drive on them. That's our shop floor. And we need
to talk about our issues in a way that removes
the political element and just makes it common sense. And
(39:20):
I think if we do that, this is an industry
that's going to continue to grow and be a place
that you know, people want to come and work for,
be proud of. And we are, and uh, I'm very
optimistic going forward. We're going to do just that, all right.
Speaker 1 (39:34):
And I'm just curious, how did you get into transportation
from you from your prior life.
Speaker 2 (39:39):
It's an interesting career path, to say the least. I did.
I did a few years not on the only on
the hill, in the Senate, the administration, various degrees. Learned
that I went in the private sector, worked on five continents.
Uh so you know, I understand I had P and
L and I ought to read a cash flow statement.
(40:00):
I know the impact that that business decisions markets have,
you know, on on on corporate decisions and how to govern,
how to steer through that in very very difficult, high
risk markets like the Middle East, Africa, Central Asia where
we talked about fraud. Oh my gosh, that takes it
to a whole other level. I learned that firsthand in
(40:22):
countries like Turkmenistan, who's Bekistan to Nigeria, Libya, Syria even
and certainly Iraqs. So I've done a lot of work
in those environments and when I come back to the
us and focus on an industry like ours that's been
around as long as it has with so many good,
hard working, patriotic people. It's very, very reassuring each day
(40:45):
that my team and I go to work. We really
are representing an amazing group of people put safety first,
put the interest of the customers and the country first.
And I'm just so so proud to be able to
rep present them as the ninth president and CEO. So
you know, I came out of Honeywell and I had
(41:06):
a knack for transportation, and they offered me the opportunity
to lead the Legislative Affairs Office for ATA. Did that
for two years, and then my predecessor retired in this
role and they said, we like what you were doing here.
Would you be interested in this? And I jumped on
it and I've been in it now ten years and
I loving it every bit of it.
Speaker 1 (41:27):
That's great. You know, I like to ask all my
guests this, do you have a favorite book about the
transportation industry or leadership that kind of is close to
your heart?
Speaker 2 (41:37):
Well, I have a book that I refer to regularly.
It's called the Death of Common Sense. I think it's
applicable to everything beyond Transportation, And I point to it
now because I think in many instances, if we don't
revive just common sense, we're going to be in real trouble.
And we've gotten so politically jaded's so divisive, so toxic,
(41:58):
so quick to not sit down with another person with
a different view find common ground. I'm so quick to
hit X and never even face that person. We're never
going to get the common sense if we don't get
back to the basics of we all are Americans, we all
have vested needs and interests that are shared, and if
(42:19):
we don't talk to one another, we're never gonna We're
never going to regain that footing. So I'm quick to
point to that book. I think it's a good one
that just you know, gets back to the fundamentals lead.
Speaker 1 (42:29):
All right, great, well, Chris, I really would thank you
for your time and appreciate all your insights and all
you guys do on behalf of the trucking industry.
Speaker 2 (42:38):
Thank you for having me on. I really enjoyed it all.
Speaker 1 (42:40):
Right, and I want to thank you for tuned again.
If you liked the episode, please subscribe and leave a review.
We've lined up a number of great guests for the podcast,
so check back to hear conversations with C speed executives, shippers, regulators,
and decision makers within the freight markets. Also, if you
have an idea for a future episode, please hit me
up on the Bloomberg terminal or on Twitter at logistics Late.
(43:01):
Thanks everyone and take care.
I want to welcome to Bloomberg Intelligence Talking Transports Podcast.
I'm your host, Leek Glasgow, Senior Freight Transportation Logistic extend.
Let's at Bloomberg Intelligence, Bloomberg's in house research arm before
diving in a little public a service announcement. Your support
is instrumental to keep bringing great guests on the podcast,
like the one we have today. If you haven't already,
please do take a moment to follow, rate and share
(00:29):
the Talking Transports Podcast. We appreciate your support. I'm very
excited to have Chris Spear, President and Chief executive Officer
of the American Trucking Associations. He serves on the board
of directors for the American Transportation Research Institute, Trucking Cares Foundation,
and the Luisa Swain Foundation. Chris has held a number
of positions in government affairs at the ATA FUNDI Motor Company,
(00:53):
and Honeywell International. He also served in the US federal
government as Deputy Representative for the Coalition Provisional Authority in Iraq.
Prior to this, he was nominated by President George W.
Bush and unanimously confirmed by the US Senate as the
Assistant Secretary of Labor for Policy During his appointment, he
(01:14):
was the President's Senior Advisor the Iraqi Ministry of Labor,
commissioner on the President's Mental Health Commission, and Executive Committee.
Member of the US Architectural and Transportation Barriers Compliance Board.
Before his nomination, Chris worked as a professional staffer in
the US Senate. He's also a graduate of the Honeywell
(01:34):
Executive Development Program, a recipient of Honeywell's Premier Achievement Award,
and was awarded the US Department of Defense Joint Civilian
Service Medal. Heilt to master's and Boucher's degree from the
University of Wyoming. So, go Pokes. Is that right?
Speaker 2 (01:49):
All right?
Speaker 1 (01:50):
Go Pokes? Welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Chris, great to have you, Thanks Lee for having me on.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
Well, I know what the American Trucking Associations does. Could
you let our listener know what your organizations all about.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
Yeah, we're ninety two years in. I'm the ninth person
to lead it as the President and CEO, and it
really is a privilege to go to work each day
and give purpose and a voice to the thirty three
thousand plus members of the ATA and it's fifty state
Federation of State Trucking associations, and that voice is extraordinarily
(02:27):
important lee as we're moving seventy two and a half
percent of the domestic freight in the United States. One
in eighteen jobs in the US is trucking. The top
job in twenty nine states is trucking, and that stems
from eight to half million people supporting our industry and
everything that you and I eat drank where it came
(02:48):
off a truck. And there's a really hard working, patriotic
part of our person and part of our industry that
made that happen, and we give them a voice, We
give them the ability to to be taken into account
when big decisions are made, whether they be in the
House or Senate here in Washington, one of our regulatory agencies,
(03:09):
or in state houses by governors and elected state legislatures.
So we're very involved in shaping outcomes that are beneficial
not just to our industry and our customers, but the
economy as a whole. And when you're rood with that
much freightly, it makes a difference. We are generally the
first to feel it when inflation is a factor. You know,
(03:30):
these are these are indicators that our industry is very
familiar with. And so there are a number of issues
going into this new administration that are very very relevant
to us directly and indirectly. And ATA is there to
make certain that we're at the table and that those
outcomes are are forward leaning and not adversarial. Right.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
And I'd like to tip my hat to all the
men and women out there in the driving trucks right
now for us, because as you mentioned, Chris, they are
very important only to our economy, but to our to
our daily lives. So thank you for all the sacrifices
that you make because a lot of those folks don't
get to go home every night to see their family.
They're on the road for days and weeks at a time,
(04:11):
So appreciate that. So on the ATA, so you know,
we have a new administration coming into the office in
a couple of days here as we're reporting this, you know,
can you just talk about, you know, what are the
biggest priorities for the ATA with this new administration? Has
that changed, you know, maybe maybe let us know, you know,
(04:31):
what are the most important things the ATA is working
on behalf of the industry.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
Well, I think two things up front are important to
note is that we we regularly pulse our members to
ensure that we really have a real time understanding of
the pressures they face each and every day in the
real world. Washington, not unbelievably is the real world. We
do not have a general understanding of you know, those
folks that don't go home every night that you just mentioned.
(04:58):
We need to really take that perspective regularly into account
and prioritize those issues accordingly. And then second to that
is then it really becomes questioning not really what we want,
but what we can get, and that varies from administration
to administration. Who controls the House and Senate, these are
(05:20):
all factors that determine where those priorities are ranked, the
strategies we adopt and implement to create those outcomes. So
obviously a major shift from the Biden administration, you know,
to the Trump administration the second round here in Washington.
But also in addition to a Republican majority in the House,
(05:43):
you have a Republican majority in the Senate. So the
ability over the next two years to take a different
approach is something that at is going to be not
only mindful of, but very engaged in. So, yeah, a
landscape that has shifted dramatically in the last three months,
and I believe it is our responsibility to not only
(06:04):
understand that environment, to be able to navigate it successfully
is really key to our success.
Speaker 1 (06:10):
Now, are there certain policies that their Republican Party might
be a little more You know, I guess sympathetic to
the ata's positions.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
I think we're going to see a different approach taken
on several of our key issues. I'd say the leading
issue that we're going to spend the lion's share of
time on, the one that keeps me up mostly at night,
is the emissions. This mad dash to zero that the
Biden administration essentially four footed its jurisdiction nationally to California,
(06:46):
mainly the California Air Resources Board, unlected board of bureaucrats
that have never, in my opinion, worked a hard days
paying their life. They do not understand a cashalist statement.
They've never had to make a quarter, they never had
to hire and fire people. They do not understand business,
and more importantly, they do not understand where the everyday goods,
(07:09):
the things they eat, drink, the medications they take. They
don't seem to appreciate or understand that it is our
industry that serves as the glue of the economy and
providing consumers Californians, you know those essentials, and that's relevant
in every fifty state, not just California. But Biden administration
(07:31):
knew that California could go much faster and avoid a
lot of the entanglements that would occur if the EPA
were to lead nationally, and by handing California the keys,
we have compliance now on movement basically retirement of our
existing and future fleet of low A meeting diesel equipment
(07:52):
to electric commercial vehicles or alternative commercial vehicles, but mainly electric.
That's the emphasis, and a timeline and a target that
is simply unachievable. There is absolutely It's not whether we
want to do it, it's just not feasible. There are
not enough manufactured equipment available to service not just California,
(08:16):
the fourth largest economy in the world, but the entire country.
They're three times more expensive than a brand new diesel.
It takes six to eight hours to charge these vehicles
to go roughly two hundred miles. A diesel takes fifteen
minutes to go twelve hundred miles. By comparisons, the operational
(08:37):
parody is completely in disconnect. Obviously, the infrastructure is not
in place to charge the power on the grids not available.
Even if it were, we aren't sourcing these materials for
the batteries outside of China or the Congo. So these
are all major, major marketed peditents realities. It's not believe
(09:00):
that has to be addressed before you can move forward
with an industry like ours adopting that type of alternative equipment.
So that'll be in the forefront. I think the Trump
administration is going to take a very very different approach
to this, that's much more common sense driven timelines, targets
that are achievable, and in most instances they're they're they're
(09:24):
going to take the reins, they're going to lead, They're
they're not going to concede that to the state of California.
It's not the United States of California, it's American. I
really believe that the Trump administration will be very proactive
and not only you know, ushering in good environmental stewardship,
but doing it in a way that's achievable without not
only bankrupting our industry putting us out of business, but
(09:48):
you know, taking food and and essentials off the shell
for our consumers Americans around the country. So that's probably
number one. I'd say labor access to talent. We have
a driver shortage of around seventy thousand drivers. We really
need to shore that up to grow when you're serving
seventy two and a half percent of the domestic freight.
(10:09):
If you want to grow that, if you want to
move more freight, you're going to have to have more trucks.
More trucks need more drivers. That simple. So putting unnecessary
regulatory burdens the displace a ninety year old model of
independent contractors. That's been an assault not just in California
but by the current administration under acting Labor Secretary of
(10:32):
Julie Sue. So we need to see the Trump administration
change that environment, be more pro worker, pro choice, pro trucking,
and that helps the economy as a result. And I'd
say beyond that, the nuclear verdicts are an issue set
that will carry forward from a very very sympathetic Biden
administration to the point of spar to a Trump administration
(10:55):
that is less concerned about chasing ambulances than it is
to you know, owning our to any accidents that are
our fault. We own those, those are our responsibility to
make whole. But beyond that, purposely swaying juries on evidence
that had nothing to do with accidents involving our trucks.
This is a gainmanship that's been implemented purposefully by the
(11:17):
plane of spar verdicts. You know, in excess of one
hundred million dollars are putting companies in jeopardy, if not
out of business, and thousands of people out of work
as a result. That is not in the interests of
anyone but trial lawyers. So I think this administration coming
in Trump administration will be taking a much more common
(11:40):
sense approach to all three of these issues sets, and
we welcome that because I think that that will be
certainly good for the good for the economy as a whole.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
Right, And I guess on the you know, you were
talking about the emissions the EPA as news standards coming
in to affect twenty twenty seven. Do you think that
the Trump administration can and will maybe push those out?
Do they have the ability to do that?
Speaker 2 (12:09):
Yeah? I think a lot of these are driven by
California's timelines and within those requirements, targets that are unachievable.
Even our manufacturers say that these are completely you know,
the engineering capability, the innovation to hit these targets are impossible. Again,
you know, bureaucrats and cubicles that have never worked or
(12:29):
invented anything are are enforcing these without any discussions with
the industry, just basically saying, go do it. I think
the Trump administration will revoke those waivers given by five
DPA to California, isolate California, mainly carb California Air Resources Board,
and in doing so, I think California is going to
(12:52):
be under a tremendous amount of pressure to to you know,
curtail inflation to make certain that there are economy grows.
They're going to have to take their their their you know,
basically their foot off the industry's throat. They're having a
lot of problems economically, I think within the within the state,
(13:12):
you know, our ability to serve over eighty percent of
the communities in California alone depend on truck Putting trucks
off the road is not going to help their economy.
So I think they're going to have to issue a
lot of waivers to their requirements, but isolating them and
not letting it spread to other states that generally tend
to adopt California standards. Uh, that's an approach that I
(13:34):
could see the Trump administration taking and leading nationally. We
operate in all fifty states. It's not like we have
businesses that solely run in each state, crossing state lines
all the time, just like airplanes, just like rail just
like ships. And we need to be able to operate
seamlessly under one framework of regulatory requirements. And that harmony
(13:58):
is something that I think not like preserves what we've
enjoyed since the birth of the country is something that
the Trump administration will reinstate.
Speaker 1 (14:06):
Yeah, and just on the environmental aspect and the ev
aspect that I would recommend to our listeners you should
check out the first episode we ever did of the
Talking Transport. It's with the ata's old chairman, not old
because he's an old man, but he's past chairman, Andrew Boyle.
He talked about a lot about the differences and some
(14:27):
of the solutions in a very impassionate way. So I
would recommend that for anyone that wants to go back
and listen. So, you know, you mentioned, you know, driver
shortage earlier, what would the ATA like to see to
curtail the driver shortage or to get to increase that pool,
because at the end of the day, you know, as
we mentioned at the onset of this episode, you know,
(14:49):
trucking is.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
Not an easy job, and so there is a lot
of churn.
Speaker 1 (14:53):
When people get into the industry initially, you know, because
they come in and they have certain expectations and they
just the job to doesn't meet those expectations, and so,
you know, the first year there's a lot of churn.
So how do you guys propose increasing that pool of
perspective folks that are that are looking to join a
trade like trucking.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
Well, I think I think we we need to build
awareness in communities, particularly that aren't familiar with trucking. We
don't move fifty three foot trailers or twenty twenty eights
in major metropolitan areas, you know, like like Dallas, Atlanta, Houston,
even Baltimore. These places are are including a whole host
(15:35):
of you know, talent that could be you know, from
an early age to those that have you know, been unemployed, veterans,
exiting service people, women, Uh, there's a there's a whole
host of demographics within the workforce that we would like
to become more familiar with trucking, and I think urban
(15:57):
environments are an area where we were of lacked awareness.
So I really think building that is going to be
essential in drawing more minorities, more women, more people who
are unemployed. You can make you a very decent living
with full benefits in our industry without a college degree
and all the debt that comes with it. So I
(16:18):
think looking at all those demographics, starting with eighteen to
twenty year olds, where we're prohibited from recruiting those folks
to cross state lines by federal standards. Despite the fact
that forty nine out of fifty states allow an eighteen
year old to drive a Class eight, you just can't
cross state lines. That works pretty well in you know, Alaska, California, Texas,
(16:39):
but if you're in Rhode Island you could drive thirty
minutes in any direction and hit a state border. That's
not going to really help, right, So we need to
train young people properly, like we do in our military.
We send eighteen nineteen twenty year olds to go off
and detect our freedom and do the unthinkable. I'm pretty
sure we could teach him how to responsibly operate a
class eight across state lines. So training is key. Starting
(17:04):
I'm young is also essential in terms of keeping them
in the industry long term. They will make a really,
really good living, as I said, without that college degree
and all the debt that's ensued. I think anywhere where
we're working with veterans who are essentially in need of employment,
(17:24):
A lot of times when people exit the military, they're
lost in the etherarth we don't haven't made that connection already.
This is where where veterans generally turn to, you know,
substance abuse, homelessness. These are all things that are just
they're tragic, the tragedies people are served our country. So
we need to take care and make it certain that
we channel those folks toward good paying jobs. They can
(17:47):
look up by zip code where they're going to be,
you know, living when they exit. To ensure that they're
already connected with an HR department, with a company and
have a job as they severed. Make it certain that
they're not unemployed when they come out. These are all
things that we can and do collectively with Apartments of
Defense Veterans Affairs as well as the Apartment of Labor.
So we're going to be looking at that. I think women.
(18:08):
We have an eight percent participation rate for drivers that
are female. Why is that. If you talk to women,
they will tell you that, you know, secure well, that
truck parking is key. They don't feel safe getting out
of the truck. Who would blame them? I mean it
is a very very difficult job in certain segments and
(18:29):
for long haul, particularly when you're out there on your own.
We need truck parking. We have one on one space
for every eleven drivers. They spend an average of fifty
six minutes a day looking for a truck parking spot.
And that's lost wages of well over six thousand dollars
a year coming out of their pocket looking for truck parking.
(18:52):
And they're required by federal law to take that break.
So federal government, if they're going to do that, which
they should should rest, should also give them a place
to do it, not on on and off ramps, not
an insecure, poorly lit environments. And that will be a
huge benefit to women joining the workforce. So we're going
(19:14):
to be focused on that, and as I said, urban
environments as well, that you know, broaden the minority participation.
We really want to get people familiar with trucks. They
don't see them downtown. We need to find ways to
penetrate that that workforce pool, that talent pool. So these
are all things you have to do simultaneously to grow
the pool of talent long term within the industry. And
(19:37):
then remove the regulatory agenda that caters to union bosses.
And I stress union bosses, they're not representing the working class.
They're representing themselves and shedding the independent contractor model which
has been in place lead for ninety years. Talk to
an independent contractor, don't talk to me, don't talk to
(19:59):
a union boss. Go to the independent contractor and ask them,
why did you take this job? Well, I want seasonal work,
I want part time work, I have another job here,
whatever the reason, that's their choice. They decided that path.
Nobody put a gun to their head and forced them
to do that for less pay or no benefits. And
(20:20):
the California AB five rule, the Biden Department of Labor
rule is intentionally meant to rode that choice and channel
people into labor unions. Now, I'm not anti labor unions.
If you want to join a union, join a union,
you should also have the right not to join a union,
and that's because they are struggling to grow their membership,
(20:44):
so they're going to the federal government and states and
asking them to change the rules, basically the pro Act
that removes choice. So we got to get rid of
that agenda and stop listening to people that are self serving,
start listening to the actual people that are doing the work,
and you'll find a growing environment where people want to
be part of that. And that's, in my opinion, lead
(21:05):
how you grow a workforce?
Speaker 1 (21:07):
Right, just I don't know if you know the answer
to this, but you know you're mentioning the fact, you know,
which I always found interesting that to do interstate traffic
you have to be twenty one years or older in
the trucking industry. What has been the pushback of keeping
that age so high and is do you know why
(21:28):
they came up with that number originally?
Speaker 2 (21:31):
I really don't have a good answer for how it
was put in place. I can tell you that forty
nine out of fifty states. Obviously, why exclude it. You
can't drive interesting farmers there without getting wet. But for
the others, Alaska in the lower forty eight, you could
drive a Class eight at AJT, and I'd never heard
(21:52):
anyone who's opposed to it federally ever lobby or oppose
any of those forty eight nine states from implementing those laws.
Now here's what's interesting is that what we're asking for
to drive across state line is training. Actually four hundred
hours of training include two hundred forty hours with a
skilled driver season driver in the cab with the eighteen
(22:16):
to twenty year old, teaching them how to operate that
equipment safely and responsibly. There's not one of the forty
nine that has any training or technology attached to their requirement,
kind of loose, including California Clinting, you can drive from
Retting down to San Diego and back as an eighteen
year old, no training, no technology on the tractor required.
(22:41):
We're actually federally to cross state lines asking for four
hundred hours. That's a step toward safety, Lee, that's not
a step away. So we feel that we're more than
adequately addressing that shortfall that that claim in spades, And
not once did I hear those folks that are posing
it federally lobby against those date rules. They really want
(23:01):
to attack safety, you know, attached training and technology in
those fifty states. They're not doing that. We are, and
so I really believe that this is a sensible, responsible
approach to safety and getting young people engaged in our industry.
Long term, we're losing them to other trades. They're going
into other trades where there be you know, other skills,
(23:23):
and for those that wash out at twenty nine, thirty
thirty one years old, then they come to us. That's
not right. We should be able to compete for the
same people that the electricians do, the roofers, the plumbers,
all the others. We should be able to compete for
that same talent pool. And we believe this is a
law that Congress can put forward the dot and force
(23:44):
that will do just.
Speaker 1 (23:46):
You know, you mentioned maybe the more friendly environment that
a Trump administration might be for the trucking industry and
probably business as well. You know, some of the things
they talked about is being tough for an immigration with
that having impact on the trucking.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
Industry at all, it can Yeah, I mean that is
a viable source of talent. We would argue for legal
immigration purely, and if you did follow that, there are
some visa categories that could be very beneficial temporarily without
displacing And I would really want to stress that because
(24:22):
when you have a shortage of seventy thousand drivers bringing
in one year visa, which is currently available in the thousands,
not seventy thousand, but low thousands, maybe expanding that to
a two year that they can operate and then go
back home and reapply if they choose. But the two
(24:43):
year is better for us because once they get familiar
with the work, then they're sent back, so a year
goes by really quick. So a two year would be
a wonderful change that will temporarily shore up that shortage,
but more importantly, it wouldn't displace anyone. And that's been
an ongoing claim by the labor bosses. Oh you're putting
all these people out. No we're not, No, we're not
(25:05):
nowhere the autonomous vehicles. When you have a shortage of
that size, you're looking for solutions that chip away at it,
even if they're temporary like this would be, and it's
not displacing anybody. That is an absolute ridiculous argument. So
I think it's a very sensible approach. But you know,
suffice it to say, this is administration that's going to
(25:27):
take a very hard stand against illegal immigration, shoring up
the border, and I don't think they're going to get
to expanding legal immigration until a lot of that's put
in place. And yeah, I think after the first second
quarter of this year, we'll have a better opportunity to
sit down and talk about the legal immigration changes that
could be beneficial without putting any American workers out.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
Of work, right you know. Also, you know this is
somewhat driver related with the legalization of marijuana and a
lot of states, you know, the use of marijuana is
still illegal from a federal standpoint, and therefore it's it's
illegal for truck drivers to test positively for it. Do
you guys support relaxing that law at all, or you're
(26:15):
fine with the status quo, or would you rather like
to take it a step further and try to mandate
hair folical testing, which is a lot more rigorous than
your analysis.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
It may surprise some people because it runs a foul
of bringing more people into the industry, but we don't
want somebody that's impaired getting behind the wheel of an
eighty thousand pound bans period. We're just not going to
sacrifice safety for displacing the shortage so that's that's obviously
again ad burden is people want to use legally recreational
(26:52):
marijuana and a dozen plus states Canada. It's putting a
lot of pressure on industries like ours that are regulated
on substance abuse Federally. You cannot be impaired and operate
this equipment. And so there's this channel conflict between these
states Canada and our federal rules and it puts our
(27:15):
industry sort of in the middle of it. And so
what is it? We have to constantly go to this
administration and again with the Trump administration coming back in
as well as a new Congress, and really educate them
on that do you really want people impair it behind
the wheel of an eight thousand pounds vehicle. It's just
a matter of time for you know, a major accident occurs.
(27:36):
And I've made very clear to those that I've talked
to that one will be on you because we've been
up here asking for more tools, hair, follicle testing, things
that give you a better purview to opioids and dealing
with that crisis. You know, obviously beyond weed, you know,
drivers that want to drive longer, stay awake, they're going
(27:56):
to take something that's going to keep them awake, and
you know weed anstices doesn't do that, So they're going
to you know, go to things that are opioid based
that'll that'll provide that. And we just simply have got
to eradicate this from our industry in order to be safe.
Safety comes first and we're not going to compromise on that.
Speaker 1 (28:16):
Lee.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
I think we've been very clear beyond your analysis. We
should allow here follicle testing. We should be the safest
industry in America. It's good for the motor Republic, it's
good for insurance, liability, everything, all those nuclear verdicts. We
don't want anybody in pair being on the wheel, and
we're going to stand for them on this.
Speaker 1 (28:35):
Okay. Another regulatory thing that's going on at the Federal
Motor Carry Safety Administration or the f m SCA as
people know it, Do you have it? Does the AT
have a view on their broker transparency rules that are
that are working their way in Washington?
Speaker 2 (28:53):
Yeah? I do. I think what they put out there
exceeds their staff toy jurisdiction first and foremost. They'll find
that out when they try to enforce it, because it'll
get litigated maybe not by us, but certainly by somebody
impacted that's vested in that model. And our industry has
many companies within it that that provide those services, you know,
(29:17):
between shippers and and and so on to manage that segment.
And uh, they're going to be adversely impacted by these
rules if they go forward. So I wouldn't be too surprised.
First and foremost, if the agency has not exceeded their jurisdiction.
I'd also say that it's it's just an it's adding
more paperwork requirements that no one over there is going
(29:37):
to ever read lee, right, I mean, it's just it's
almost like self preservation for bureaucracy. It's like, oh, now
we need more people to read all this stuff. I mean,
they have trouble just getting through comments on rules. How
are they going to you know, read regular reporting requirements
under this regime when they have absolutely no structure and
and and staff there to do it. So it's almost
a justification for more bureaucrats. So that seems to go
(30:02):
counter to what this incoming administration is going to be posing.
So we'll see where it goes. The npr m's out.
The comments are up in a week's time. We are
not in favor of it, partly because we don't think
they have the jurisdiction to do it by law, and
they certainly don't have the budget and the staff to
oversee that kind of reporting requirement. And I really don't
(30:23):
think in the end it's going to have the impact
that they intended to.
Speaker 1 (30:26):
Okay, so just leaving Washington for a little bit, I
know you're going to be said to hear that. But
you know, outside of rates, what's kind of the biggest
challenge for the trucking industry outside of the regulatory sphere.
Speaker 2 (30:41):
Well, I think, you know, the last two years have
been extraordinarily difficult for our industry to grow capacities ted.
I think rates if fluctuated now just contract rates, spot rates.
It's just made it a very very difficult fuel prices
inflation at forty year highs. You know, people wonder why
President Trump won. That's it. Biden administration blew it. They
(31:03):
did not pay attention to the kitchen table economics in
this country. They completely ignored it. And you know, the
issues they did focus on didn't bring them any new voters.
And that's the contrast between Biden and Trump in this decision,
and I think it's prelude to where we're going to
go is a more you know, focus on on on economics,
(31:30):
lowering inflation, really bring the manufacturing back to the US,
really focusing on American workers, including pay, training, and so on.
And I truly believe these are the fundamentals that were
dismissed under the Biden administration will get a lot more
attention under Trump. So, you know, when I look at
the challenges we've had, particularly in the last two years,
(31:52):
we're very optimistic going forward that twenty five will be
a great transition year. We're starting to see you know,
an in client gradual It's not going to be anything
dramatic out of the gate, but I think by twenty
six that the fundamentals are put in place under this
incoming administration, twenty six beyond, it's going to be very
very good and productive for the industry, not just retail, housing, construction,
(32:16):
and manufacturing. Those are the three buckets that are economist
Bob Costella speaks to. And if we see all three,
you know, leaning favorably, that's going to have a very
very big, measurable impact on our industry success.
Speaker 1 (32:31):
All Right, I love Bob Costell hi above Castell's that, yeah,
we do doo. So, you know, fraud has become a
huge problem for the industry. What is the ATA doing
to help fight fraud or you know, maybe suggest new
legislation that can help fight fraud.
Speaker 2 (32:50):
Yeah, you know, I've taken a few I think much
deserve shots at the current administration, but I will say
there are there are a number of things that we've
worked proactically with them on, including truck parking. They've allocated
nearly five hundred million dollars truck parking out of discretionary funds.
People put. Judge has been phenomenal on that issue. It
resonates with him. We've had great events at the White
(33:12):
House on apprenticeship. I think I think, uh, you know,
I'm looking at theft and fraud. It really doesn't matter
if you're a deer and r. I don't know that
there is a constituency out there of electorate that that
believes that that's a good thing. So, you know, the
upshot here is that we try to understand the problem
(33:34):
not just by segment within our industry, but regionally, locally,
where it's occurring, how it's occurring. It takes on various degrees.
You have organized crime, you have some that is domestic,
but you have candidly a lot that's happening from abroad
through hacking. They're going into the bill laden, they're changing it,
they're changing the route on the delivery as far as
(33:57):
the driver knows he's going to a legitimate drop, legitim
and drop because that's what it says on the computer
and they reprogrammed it, sent that load there and then
it's gone. So that's very high tex sophisticated stuff that's
well beyond our border, and we need federal support for that,
not just state local. But there's a lot of random
stuff too that happens that that we need to attack.
(34:18):
And it's interesting because it's gotten so badly that, you know,
before I think a lot of carriers didn't want to
talk about it because it's embarrassing, right, you know, you
don't want your customers know that you got hit. That
disclosure may you know, determine from doing business with you.
It's so widespread now and it's not just us, it's rail,
it's others that are dealing with this problem. And everybody's
(34:42):
now talking about it. And once that happens, we begin
to understand where it is and we can help work
with law enforcement to target those problems specifically. So we're
just not throwing money out there left and right. We
all know it's a problem, but how do you focus
it on, you know, where it exist and enable law
enforcement to do its job. And we've had some really
(35:04):
good success federally, state and local through our Law Enforcement
Advisory Committee, who's made up of a lot of retired
and active law enforcement officials at all levels, of really
capturing this issue. And I think I think we're going
to make some progress. And I'm quick to applaud the
Biden administration for noting it. I think the Trump administration
will do the exact same thing. It benefits everybody to
(35:28):
attack fraud and cargo theft absolutely.
Speaker 1 (35:32):
You know, I was as curious, does the ATA have
a position on autonomous trucking? You guys like all for
it or are you wary of it? Where do you guys?
Where do you see that going? Well?
Speaker 2 (35:45):
I think we're in favor of innovation. I've always said
that we should never be afraid of technology. Technology, you know,
improves everything that we do. Where we are today versus
where we were ten years ago. It's remarkable, including and trucking,
so fleet management, telematics, the ability to see your fleet
(36:05):
where it's operating, where there's inclement weather, rerouting. There are
a whole host of factors that can make and streamline
our industry, carrier by carrier, much more safely and effectively
through technology, safety technology, from collision mitigation systems, you know,
governing speeds to analog breaks. These are all things that
(36:26):
are good for our industry and carriers down to the
driver drowned of the motoring public when it comes to
automation again, going back to the displacement, we've got seventy
thousand you know workers, we're short drivers. We're not going
to displace them with with autonomous vehicles. And you're not
going to see these running in all fifty states. My
state of Wyoming. Yeah, talking about inclement weather, we get
(36:49):
wins over one hundred miles an hour daily and parts
of I eighty or are very very treacherous in the
winter particularly, you're not going to be able to operate
that equipment and that kind of environments. So you're probably
going to see it more operating in the Southwest where
that's not an issue. Light them run lanes. If they're
safe and proven, they're not going to displace any drivers.
(37:10):
They'll move a little bit more freight, they'll chip away
at that shortage, and they'll allow us to grow from
seventy two and a half percent, you know, maybe seventy five.
So you know, I'm not intimidated by that. I think
I think levels one, two, three, even four are going
to make the driver more alert, more aware, more successful
in doing their job. And candidly, the more knowledgeable they
(37:33):
are on technology, the better paid and marketable they are.
So these are all beneficial to the existing driver pool
beyond fully autonomous level five. So no, I'm not concerned
about it.
Speaker 1 (37:45):
Right Is there is there anything else like on your
radar that's related to that's facing the freight transtation logistics industry.
Speaker 2 (37:53):
No, I think we really hit on them. The issues
we've been dealing with, environment, labor, and believe you know,
lawsuit abuse rampant in the States. Uh, these are three
primary issues that are going to spill over from the
Biden administration of the trop administration. Some of it will
attack on the Hill some of the Department's administration, and
(38:13):
I think the rest of it will be in the
state houses. I would just struct stress that the ATA
for ninety two years is put itself in a position
better than most associations in the country. H Our Federation
of fifty State Trucking Associations has reached. We've got presents
in every state and congressional district, every state house. We
(38:36):
know the governors. Uh, we can turn on a dime
and I don't have to spend millions, if not billions
of dollars on TV ads and you know by campaigns
that compete with you know, the trial lawyers or the
union bosses or the environmental lobby. We just roll up
our sleeves and do what we do and it resonates
with these and rs. So we just keep doing what
(38:57):
we're doing. League. I think our story sells regardless. It's
an American story. It's one that we all rely on,
doesn't matter what party affiliation you are. I always say,
roads and bridges aren't Democrat or republic and we all
drive on them. That's our shop floor. And we need
to talk about our issues in a way that removes
the political element and just makes it common sense. And
(39:20):
I think if we do that, this is an industry
that's going to continue to grow and be a place
that you know, people want to come and work for,
be proud of. And we are, and uh, I'm very
optimistic going forward. We're going to do just that, all right.
Speaker 1 (39:34):
And I'm just curious, how did you get into transportation
from you from your prior life.
Speaker 2 (39:39):
It's an interesting career path, to say the least. I did.
I did a few years not on the only on
the hill, in the Senate, the administration, various degrees. Learned
that I went in the private sector, worked on five continents.
Uh so you know, I understand I had P and
L and I ought to read a cash flow statement.
(40:00):
I know the impact that that business decisions markets have,
you know, on on on corporate decisions and how to govern,
how to steer through that in very very difficult, high
risk markets like the Middle East, Africa, Central Asia where
we talked about fraud. Oh my gosh, that takes it
to a whole other level. I learned that firsthand in
(40:22):
countries like Turkmenistan, who's Bekistan to Nigeria, Libya, Syria even
and certainly Iraqs. So I've done a lot of work
in those environments and when I come back to the
us and focus on an industry like ours that's been
around as long as it has with so many good,
hard working, patriotic people. It's very, very reassuring each day
(40:45):
that my team and I go to work. We really
are representing an amazing group of people put safety first,
put the interest of the customers and the country first.
And I'm just so so proud to be able to
rep present them as the ninth president and CEO. So
you know, I came out of Honeywell and I had
(41:06):
a knack for transportation, and they offered me the opportunity
to lead the Legislative Affairs Office for ATA. Did that
for two years, and then my predecessor retired in this
role and they said, we like what you were doing here.
Would you be interested in this? And I jumped on
it and I've been in it now ten years and
I loving it every bit of it.
Speaker 1 (41:27):
That's great. You know, I like to ask all my
guests this, do you have a favorite book about the
transportation industry or leadership that kind of is close to
your heart?
Speaker 2 (41:37):
Well, I have a book that I refer to regularly.
It's called the Death of Common Sense. I think it's
applicable to everything beyond Transportation, And I point to it
now because I think in many instances, if we don't
revive just common sense, we're going to be in real trouble.
And we've gotten so politically jaded's so divisive, so toxic,
(41:58):
so quick to not sit down with another person with
a different view find common ground. I'm so quick to
hit X and never even face that person. We're never
going to get the common sense if we don't get
back to the basics of we all are Americans, we all
have vested needs and interests that are shared, and if
(42:19):
we don't talk to one another, we're never gonna We're
never going to regain that footing. So I'm quick to
point to that book. I think it's a good one
that just you know, gets back to the fundamentals lead.
Speaker 1 (42:29):
All right, great, well, Chris, I really would thank you
for your time and appreciate all your insights and all
you guys do on behalf of the trucking industry.
Speaker 2 (42:38):
Thank you for having me on. I really enjoyed it all.
Speaker 1 (42:40):
Right, and I want to thank you for tuned again.
If you liked the episode, please subscribe and leave a review.
We've lined up a number of great guests for the podcast,
so check back to hear conversations with C speed executives, shippers, regulators,
and decision makers within the freight markets. Also, if you
have an idea for a future episode, please hit me
up on the Bloomberg terminal or on Twitter at logistics Late.
(43:01):
Thanks everyone and take care.
Host
Lee Klaskow
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