October 9, 2025 • 23 mins
Arthur C. Brooks, a Harvard professor who teaches a popular course on happiness, explores the science behind what makes life fulfilling - defining happiness as a blend of enjoyment, satisfaction and meaning rather than just a fleeting feeling. Brooks also reflects on his unconventional path into academia, his book collaboration with Oprah Winfrey, and his personal philosophies on leadership, relationships and finding purpose. He spoke in an interview for "The David Rubenstein Show: Peer to Peer Conversations." This interview was recorded August 5 at the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg Center in Washington DC.
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
When one thinks of the Harvard Business School, one thinks
of strategy, investments, technology. But actually one of the most
popular professors of the Harvard Business School now is Arthur Brooks,
who teaches the course on Happiness. I had a chance
recently to sit down with Arthur to talk about how
he became a leading expert on happiness and how he
came to write a book on the subject with Oprah Winfrey.
(00:25):
So you are a professor at Harvard and you're teaching,
among other things, happiness. Can you really teach happiness? Because
this happiness something you kind were born with or maybe
you acquire in life. But in a course, can you
really learn how to be happy?
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Well, you can learn how to pursue happiness through basically
three mechanisms. Number One, you need to understand what it
is and what the science says about it, which is
contrary to a lot of what we hear growing up.
Most people have a lot of misconceptions about happiness. You
have to change some habits, change your life a little bit,
and then you have to teach it to other people
to become responsible for it, which is like anything else.
(01:00):
If you want to become a good golfer, you have
to understand golf. You have to play golf. And it's
even better if you explain golf to somebody and then
you that's the algorithm basically for getting better at any subject.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
I suppose I am a grumpy person by nature?
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Is this true?
Speaker 1 (01:14):
Well, I'm just just assume I'm a grumpy person by nature.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Find you lovely?
Speaker 1 (01:18):
Okay, And let's suppose I take your course. Am I
going to go from being grumpy to happy by virtual
of taking a course?
Speaker 2 (01:25):
No? And this is really not just about emotional transformation.
One of the things that my students learn is emotional
self management. Emotions are are misunderstood by almost everybody. They
think about good feelings and bad feelings. There are no
such thing. Emotions are nothing more than reactions to stimuli
that we have sensed by our primitive brains turned into
(01:46):
the universal language of emotions.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
Fear.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
Anger discussed sadness, interest, joy, etc. In the limbic system
of the brain to give us a signal about what's
going on. If you have particularly acute negative emotionality, which
is called negative aff high negative affect, and by the way,
people watching Bloomberg tend to have high negative affect. How
do I know this. Twenty five percent of the population
has especially high positive and negative effect. They're high affect people,
(02:12):
sixty five percent of CEOs and entrepreneurs. So this is
one of the things that a lot of people watching us. Yeah,
you're still going to be grumpy, but you're going to
understand the meaning of the grumpiness and use it to
learn and grow in life.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
Is there anything more important in the end than happiness?
Speaker 2 (02:27):
That's a debate that philosophers and scientists have been having
for millennia. As a matter of fact, him Aristotle talked
about that. Thomas Aquinas in twelve sixty five said, does
anybody desire anything other than happiness? I say that he
does not. But it depends on what happiness means. And
so if you're thinking about it as a positive feeling,
(02:48):
then there are lots of things that are more important
than that, if you define it correctly. Maybe not.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
In a sentence that's been called the most famous sentence
in the English language written by Thomas Jefferson and the
Declaration Deependance, he ends it by saying that what people
should want is life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
He didn't really define happiness. But are you surprised or
are you surprised that he would put pursuit of happiness
is among the most important things in the world.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
Is revolutionary. As a matter of fact, it's those words
were cribbed from the Virginia Declaration of Rights written by
George Mason some years earlier, and Mason talked about in
the Virginia Declaration about life, liberty, and the pursuit of property. Well,
almost certainly in a conversation with Benjamin Franklin. We don't
know for sure, but this is the supposition, because Benjamin
Franklin is behind all of this interesting and sort of
(03:34):
subversive language about the new American Republic. He's substituted in
this pursuit of happiness, in this idea that you are
the captain of your own destiny in this new nation.
You get to define what this means and then go
after it. And we're going to be about opportunity without
any guarantees. And by the way, that's the country I
still want to live in.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
One are the key elements to being happy? And I
suppose I'm a person who wants to be happy? What
are the key things that make somebody happy?
Speaker 2 (04:00):
Stop thinking it's a feeling. It's not a feeling. People
will define it as I can't quite put words to it,
but I know and I feel it. No, you can't.
Feelings are evidence that your limbic system is working properly,
and you can have a lot of negative emotions and
be a very happy person. In the same way, by
the way that the smell of your turkey is not
your Thanksgiving dinner. Feelings are evidence of happiness. They are
(04:23):
not happiness itself, and so stop looking for feelings number one.
Number two, figure out what happiness actually is. So if
I say, what is your Thanksgiving dinner? There's lots of
ways to define that, but one way is protein, carbohydrates,
and fat. Those are macro nutrients. That's a decomposition of
all food for better longevity and health, which is another
big interest in area of research of mine. So what
(04:44):
are the macro nutrients of happiness? They are enjoyment, satisfaction,
and meaning. Those are the three things to pursue go.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
Through each one. Enjoyment. What does enjoyment mean?
Speaker 2 (04:53):
Enjoyment is not pleasure. That's a big mistake that people
often make, which is just feeling good. That's a limbic phenomenon.
It's parts of your ventral tegmntal area and the ventral
stratum are tapped to make you feel good. That's not it.
If you're looking for that is your life's goal, you'll
wind up in rehab if you're lucky. What enjoyment is
is it takes pleasure. It adds two things to make
(05:15):
them fully conscious and mediated by the prefilled loal cortext
pleasure plus people plus memory. That's what you want, and
that's the kind of life you need. You need to
be able to manage your pleasures in a way that's
social and memorable so that you can have a life
that's in an ongoing way, something that you consider to
be enjoyable. That's the macroninturiant Number one, all right. Number
two is what satisfaction. Satisfaction is the joy that you
(05:38):
get from an accomplishment after struggle. You've struggled a lot.
I mean, you've had a lot of ups and downs
over the course of your career. But the great source
of satisfaction is after all that struggle. The sweetness came
with all the stuff that Carlisle's done, all the stuff
that this show has done. But if it actually had
been easy, it wouldn't be sweet, which is one of
the funny things about humanity. My dog doesn't want to
(05:58):
struggle for his rewards, eat lying down if he could.
We on the other hand, you know, when I go
to a great entrepreneur like you, and if I were
doing the interview and you were the interview e, and
I said, okay, tell me the secrets to all this,
you'd tell me hard things that had happened, and setbacks
that had happened, and disappointments that had happened. Because the hardness,
the difficulty, the suffering is actually part of the sweetness.
(06:18):
That's satisfaction.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
What's the third element, meaning, And that's the big one.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
That's the next book that I'm writing. It's called The
Meaning of Your Life, the Finding Purpose in an age
of emptiness, because that's the crisis of today for particularly
for adults hundred thirty five, is that their life feels
empty and meaningless. And this is what lies behind the
mental health crisis.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
Now you've written that younger people today are not as
happy as their parents were. That's part because of social
media and things like that makes people isolated.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
So it's a complicated thing. But there's basically a climate
and weather problem that we find and I don't mean
that literally. The climate of happiness is all about faith
and philosophy and life, about family, life, about friendship, and
about seeing your life as a calling. Your work is
a calling that is meaningful and serves other people, and
all of those have been in a client That's the
climate of happiness has been ticking down since about nineteen ninety.
(07:11):
Then the weather, the hurricanes, and happiness have been really threefold.
Number one was the advent of social media and screens
in everybody's lives in two thousand and eight, twenty nine,
twenty ten, which has done just raised absolute havoc in
the brains of everybody under thirty five years old. That's
what my New Meaning book is about, is about how
we use our brains differently, and it's vacating the parts
(07:33):
of our brain that we need to assess questions of meaning.
The second is polarization, where baby boomers have tried to
conscript young adults into their culture war, particularly on campuses.
You should feel aggrieved, You're a victim. Everybody's trying to
ruin the world. You need to be angry and afraid
and last but not least, of course, is what happened
with the really misbegotten reaction to the coronavirus epidemic, which
(07:55):
is to send everybody home, make sure that people don't
interact socially. And that was cat for happiness.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
And then you wrote a book on happiness.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
During the coronavirus epidemic. It was it was my it
was my COVID project.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
That was Strength to Strength, from strength to.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
Strength, which comes from the eighty fourth psalm Michel del
Kail and Hebrew, may you go from strength to strength,
which is an ancient Judaic blessing, of.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
Course, and it became a number one New York Times bestseller.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
Yeah, that was unexpected.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
So somebody calls you about this. She read the book
and said, why don't we do a book together. That
was Oprah Winfrey.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
That was Oprah Winfrey.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
Had you ever met her before?
Speaker 2 (08:31):
No? No, no. And what happened was that she was
reading my column during the coronavirus epidemic every Thursday in
the Atlantic and she never left her place in Montecita,
California for a couple of years. But she was learning
and reading. She's a voracious reader. And she said she
was learning a lot from it. She wanted to meet
that guy. So when the book came out from Strength
to Strength in February of twenty twenty two, she literally
(08:52):
read it on the first day and called me, hell, oh,
this is Oprah Winfrey. And I said and I said, yeah,
and this is Batman. I mean, turned out it was
Oprah Winfrey.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
The book came out, and it also was a number
one New York Times bestseller. Yeah, and its title is.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
It's Build the Life you want, The Art and Science
of getting Happier.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
So you have another book coming out very shortly, probably
by the time this airs, it'll be out The Happiness Files.
What is that about?
Speaker 2 (09:15):
That's an edited volume of my thirty five most popular
columns in the Atlantic about work and life. So the
whole idea it's being put out by the Harvard Business
Review Press, is that your life is a startup. That's
the most important enterprise. People think of a company as
a startup, but that's just an extension of who you
are as a person. It's a cultural phenomenon and a
behavioral phenomenon. As a matter of fact. The way to
(09:36):
think about it, if to live the best life, is
to say you, David incorporated your startup. The enterprise is
your life, and that means you need to take risk
appropriately and search and be in search of the true fortune,
which is love and happiness. If you treat it your
life like a startup, your life gets better and it
becomes more successful. And it's thirty five essays that talk
(09:57):
about exactly how to do that. Every chapter. It's intended
to be read over about a month, because it about
thirty five essays, and each chapter gives you the science,
the idea, and the science, and then it says, do
these three things, which is about behavioral change, all of them.
I have tried every column I write. I'm ten weeks
ahead on my Atlantic column, and I'm trying all the
things that I suggest to make sure that there's sound.
(10:18):
I'm my own guinea pig. And if it doesn't work,
I don't write it, I don't publish it.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
How does somebody who's an expert on happiness grow into that?
Let's talk about your background for a moment. So where
were you born?
Speaker 2 (10:29):
Spoke Anne Washington?
Speaker 1 (10:30):
And what did your parents do?
Speaker 2 (10:32):
My father was a lifelong college professor. He was a mathematician,
a PhD biostatistician, so he was a quant guy.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
And your mother what did she do?
Speaker 2 (10:40):
She was an artist. My mother was a good amateur
musician and serious about that, but really she was a
watercolorist of some renowned in the Pacific Northwest.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
And when you were growing up, did you say, I
want to be an expert on happiness or what did
you want to do as a boy?
Speaker 2 (10:54):
I wanted to be the world's greatest front shorn player.
That's what I wanted. I was naturally good at music,
and I learned this by about the age of four.
I learned to read music before I learned to read words,
and I had a natural aptitude for it. Started on
piano at four, after a little bit of violin, and
then by eight I started the French horn. I was
really good at it. I got a lot of acclamation,
I got some praise and appreciation from my parents, and
(11:16):
I realized I like getting attention from adults, positive attention
from adults. So I stuck with it.
Speaker 1 (11:20):
And did people say, this guy is going to be
one of the great French horn players of all time.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
Well, I certainly hoped so, and a lot of people
had a lot of faith that I had a tremendous
amount of potential so I was going to go to
conservatory and then go pro. That was the idea.
Speaker 1 (11:34):
So you graduate from high school and you said to
your parents, I guess I'm not going to college. I'm
going to go be a French horn player. What did
your academic father say.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
Well, I went to college for a year. I went
to the California Institute of the Arts. So I was
going to study with my teacher, somebody I had met
in previous summers, a great frenchhorn player, one of the
great soloists of the time. And it didn't really work out.
It turns out to the right strategy for college is
not to drop all your required classes. Tried to tell
my kids that at this point, but the result is
(12:02):
I was well dropped out, kicked out, splitting hairs at
this point. I made it ten months, all.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
Right, you made it ten months. Then need to say
to your parents, guess what, I'm going to be a
French worn player for life.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
Yeah. So I was actually transferring to the Curtis Institute
of Music in Philadelphia, which is sort of the elite
music conservatory, and I was very very lucky to get
a spot.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
Great place.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
It is a great place, and during the summer before
I was going to go there, I was playing at
the Marlborough Music Festival with Rudolph Serkin and some of
the great chamber musicians at the time, and I was
offered a job playing chamber music with a brass quintet
out of Maryland, and so I took the job instead
of going back to school and went pro nineteen.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
And then you ultimately moved to Spain.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
Yeah, so I was on tour. I did that for
about six years, making very little money but having a
great time and learning a lot. I also toured for
a couple of years during that time with a great
jazz guitar player named Charlie Bird, who was, you know,
the original American originator of the bossa nova style, et cetera.
So I was on a concert tour playing chamber music
in the Burgundy region of France in the summer of
nineteen eighty eight and I met a girl who was
(13:01):
also was studying music and actually at a concert. I
was playing the concert and there was a girl in
the front row smiling at me, and I thought, well,
that's not normal. I should check that out. So afterward
I introduced myself. Turned out she didn't speak a word
of English, and she wasn't French. Turns out she was
Spanish Catalan as a matter of fact, from Barcelona. I
learned that not a word of English, we didn't know
a word in common. So I did the right thing
(13:23):
and asked her out. And how did you know if
she said yes? I well, because I got a translator
said yeah, she'd love to have dinner with you. And
so that was an odd dinner, full of gesticulations and
hand gestures, etc. But we were twenty four years old.
And then I went home and I called my dad
and I said, I think I met the girl I'm
going to marry. And he said, really, that's great, can't
(13:44):
wait to meet her. I said, I have some difficulties here.
I mean, she doesn't speak a word of English, she
doesn't live in the United States, and she has no
idea we're going to get married. He said, well, you
better get a plan, son, and so I did. I
was living in New York at the time, barely making
against meet, and I started looking at different opportunities, and
through sheer serendipity, I was offered a couple of months
(14:04):
later a job in the Barcelona Symphony as the associate
principal French horn and I said, ah, sign from God.
I moved to Barcelona and worked on closing the deal. Still,
it took me two years to convince her though, David, So.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
Did you get married two years later or something? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (14:17):
Yeah, two years later. It took me. I was you know,
I had to work on it a long time. After all,
Europeans are very modern and they don't believe in marriage,
so it took it took a good deal of convincing.
Speaker 1 (14:26):
I should point out, you're still married to her. Yeah,
it is now married.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
Thirty four, thirty four or parents of three in a
couple of months, grandparents of four.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
Is having a relationship with another person more likely to
produce happiness or more likely to produce divorce?
Speaker 2 (14:43):
Well, it it depends on the relationship. Your results may vary.
As they say in the in the you know, the
ads for financial products and pharmaceuticals. The truth is that
a good marriage is the single biggest predictor of the
happiest possible life. But a bad marriage works in the
other direction, to be sure, and so that's why it's
that's the most important investment decision anybody watching us will
ever make.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
Where did you start teaching academically.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
I started in Georgia State. So I finished my PhD
in nineteen ninety eight, and Georgia State University in Atlanta
was the first place that hired me, and I did
three years there, and then I moved to Syracuse, which
was in public policy, was and arguably still as the
top school in public policy.
Speaker 1 (15:19):
In the company. Maxwell School, the Maxwell School exactly right,
So you teach there for ten years.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
I taught there for I taught it, Georgia State for
three and Syracuse for seven and a half.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
Seven okay, so ten years as an academic, ten and
a half years Maxwell. Then somebody decides to they want
you to be the head of AEI. But why would
you be qualified to be the head of the American
Enterprise SINS too?
Speaker 2 (15:39):
I was not qualified and I was clearly not qualified
for that job, and it was I was sort of
the last chance saloon, I think, for the board of
directors that the American enterprisingers to do. At the time,
I was a visiting scholar at AI, and I had
always aspired to do more. AI is the greatest thing
tank in America. It's based on the idea that the
free enterprise system has done more to lift people up
from the margins of society than any other single idea
(15:59):
in history, and that the United States at its best
is a gift to the world.
Speaker 1 (16:04):
All Right, So you took that job, you became the CEO,
and you stayed there for ten.
Speaker 2 (16:07):
Years eleven almost a lot of ten and a half.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
So after eleven years you say, Okay, I now want
to do something else. Why do you decide to do
something else after eleven years is going very well?
Speaker 2 (16:16):
I had figured out by that time that my career
is best when I take it down to the studs
every decade and start again. That's when I'm most interested.
That's when I can funge the skills that i've as
a leader, as a professional, as a person in my soul.
I can take them to the next thing and do
really well with a lot of inspiration.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
Most people, before they leave a job, they already have
another job lined up. Yeah, you left AI when you
were at the top of your game, but you didn't
have anything lined up.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
Not really. I mean I had some ideas, maybe I'll
go back to academia. But the whole point is basically this.
I had a heart to heart conversation one of my
best friends is your partner Dan Dan Yellow at Carlisle
and I said to him, look, I'm feeling a little
I'm mitching a little bit. I'm thinking about new things.
And how do you think about your career as a CEO?
How do you think about finishing your career as a CEO?
(17:00):
I was fifty five years old, fifty four years old
at the time. And he said he thought about it,
and he said something very wise to me that's probably
useful for people watching us right now. He says, when
it comes to ending, finishing up as a leader, especially
as a business leader, you've got two choices. You can
leave before you're ready, or you can leave on somebody
else's terms. You choose, choose wisely. And I thought to myself, Yep,
(17:22):
I'm not ready, and that means it's time to go.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
What did you teach initially at Harvard?
Speaker 2 (17:26):
So I came in and I taught in the first
semester of the Kennedy School nonprofit management, which is something
that I've taught a lot about. I've written a textbook
on that, and that's really about how to create societal change,
how to create a better society in the basis of
non governmental, nonprofit activity, but it's really about how you're
going to transform society outside of the world of government
or for profit businesses. And that went really well. But
(17:48):
then when I went over across the river to the
Business School for my first semester there in the spring,
I introduced I created a class called Leadership and Happiness,
and that really took off because that was where my
heart was.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
You're teaching this course and all of a sudden, people
by word of mouth say this guy is interesting and
maybe we can learn how to be happier, and so
the class goes from a few people to a lot
of people. Right.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
Yeah, we filled it the first time. I think we
had seventy two people as a full class the first time,
but it was clear that even by the second year
we could fill two sections of ninety even with a
waiting list, because it's a different kind of class than
what they typically get. On the first day of class,
I say, look, you think that if you have money, power, pleasure,
and fame, then you'll get happiness for free, and it's
a lie, and you know it. The right solution is
(18:31):
for you to search for happiness and then you'll have
the success that you truly crave. That's what this class
is all about.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
But if you are a person who's an expert on happiness,
you can't ever be grumpy. I mean, if you ever
get in fights with people because you're not in a
good mood, or you have to be happy all the time.
Speaker 2 (18:47):
Well, one of the reasons that I study happiness is
I want to lash myself to the mast. I want
to hold myself accountable to be the person that I
want to be. Not that I'll have to be happy
happy all the time, but it's not right for me
to display my own happiness in such a way that
brings other people down. That's an unethical thing to do. So,
you know, being a jerk in an airport. That's truly
off brand for me, and it's something that I try
(19:07):
to make sure that I never do. Well. Being is
a combination of happiness and unhappiness, and they're not opposites.
They're actually mediated in different parts of the brain because
they have different purposes. My problem is not low happiness.
My problem is high unhappiness, which is often the case
with people in my line of work. For that matter,
(19:28):
your line of work. So for me, my particular challenge
is making sure that I'm very serious about managing my
negative affect every single day, and I do that with
the science that I've been studying over the past well decades.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
At this point, do you ever get mad and somebody
just yell and lose your temper or you don't do that?
Speaker 2 (19:45):
Well, I don't do that very often, and part of
that is because I've learned how to manage my limbic
system so it doesn't manage me. That's getting as much
space as I can between what I feel and what
I do. That's called metacognition.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
Many people put themselves forward as leaders. Presumably they want
to be a leader because it makes them happy to
be a leader rather than a follower. But how do
you define leadership and as leadership if you have, it
make you happier than if you're a follower.
Speaker 2 (20:11):
So that's a good question, and it's a complicated question
because there are a lot of leaders in business who
are actually unhappier after they ascend to the corner office.
I see this constantly. The number one emotion that people
feel in the first two years as a brand new
CEO's anger, which is not what people expect. It's like,
you know, hey, man, if I get the CEO job,
I'm finally going to have achieved everything I've always wanted.
(20:33):
And it turns out that it's really really tough for
the most talented people in the country in the economy.
They will never be lifted to the level of incompetence.
There is no Peter principle. There's kind of a striver
Peter principle next to it, which is that they will
be if they let themselves be lifted up to the
level of unhappiness because they go beyond what they really
(20:55):
enjoy doing where they can get flow. And being a
leader is hard because there's rarely flow. It is a
service profession. Leadership is about lifting people up. That's what
it's all about, and earning it because you've lifted other
people up to become their best selves.
Speaker 1 (21:09):
So if I say to somebody, I've just interviewed Arthur Brooks,
I spend forty five minutes with him, and somebody says,
I don't have time to watch it. Give me the
one minute version. How can I be happy?
Speaker 2 (21:19):
So the world says that for you to be happy,
and this is based on mother nature. This is not capitalism.
Mother nature doesn't care if you're happy. So she imposes
this on you. She says, for you to have the
best life, you need to love things, get a lot
of them, use people. They're there for your advancement and comforts,
and worship yourself because you're the center of the universe.
That's what the world tells you. That's what your nature
tells you. That's wrong. Happiness comes from changing the verbs
(21:41):
and the nouns. The right happiness formula and this is
scientifically validated. But because we've talked about it in this show,
is number one. Love people, use things, and worship the
divine as you understand it. And if you do that,
you're on the right track.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
Why do you decide to go to Harvard among all
these things you probably had available to you.
Speaker 2 (21:58):
Well, you know, academia is my natural home. I wanted
to go back and do something that was going to
be really positive and meaningful for society, and so that
required what we Catholic people call discernment, and discernment is
this or discernment of spirits, is trying to figure out
what's what you're meant to do to actually find out
you're calling. And there's an ancient way of doing this.
There's a technique for doing this that people watching us
(22:20):
can can do whether they're Catholic or not religious or
not as a matter of fact, and that's called a pilgrimage.
So the whole idea is if you walk a long
way when you have a single question, you're more likely
to find it. There's actually science behind with this is sound.
I walk the community Santiago in the summer of twenty
nineteen after I left AI, and by the time I
finished walking a few hundred miles, I wrote a mission
(22:42):
statement for myself, which is, as a behavioral scientist, I'm
going to spend the rest of my life lifting people
up and bringing them together in bonds of happiness and
love using science and ideas. And so that's what I
decided to do at Harvard.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
What is next for you? What next world do you
want to conquer?
Speaker 2 (22:56):
So this is a good question, and at this point
in my life there's a little bit less central planning,
there's a lot more serendipity. I'm thinking about the opportunities
that come my way to live up to my mission.
My mission is to lift people up and bring them
together in bonds and happiness and love using my skills
science and ideas. So if there's an opportunity for me
to do that at scale, I want to do it.
I want a billion people to understand the happiness science.
(23:17):
That's what I want. That's what changes the world is
when people have aspirations for their own life, for something better.
The reason that the United States is such a great country,
is such a successful countries because people had personal aspiration
for something better for their own lives. And that's what
I want, that entrepreneurial notion that I can build a
life with greater happiness, and I have to find David,
this is my challenge. I have to find better and
(23:38):
better ways to scale this.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
Thanks for listening to hear more of my interviews. You
can subscribe and download my podcast on Spotify, Apple, or
wherever you listen.
When one thinks of the Harvard Business School, one thinks
of strategy, investments, technology. But actually one of the most
popular professors of the Harvard Business School now is Arthur Brooks,
who teaches the course on Happiness. I had a chance
recently to sit down with Arthur to talk about how
he became a leading expert on happiness and how he
came to write a book on the subject with Oprah Winfrey.
(00:25):
So you are a professor at Harvard and you're teaching,
among other things, happiness. Can you really teach happiness? Because
this happiness something you kind were born with or maybe
you acquire in life. But in a course, can you
really learn how to be happy?
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Well, you can learn how to pursue happiness through basically
three mechanisms. Number One, you need to understand what it
is and what the science says about it, which is
contrary to a lot of what we hear growing up.
Most people have a lot of misconceptions about happiness. You
have to change some habits, change your life a little bit,
and then you have to teach it to other people
to become responsible for it, which is like anything else.
(01:00):
If you want to become a good golfer, you have
to understand golf. You have to play golf. And it's
even better if you explain golf to somebody and then
you that's the algorithm basically for getting better at any subject.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
I suppose I am a grumpy person by nature?
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Is this true?
Speaker 1 (01:14):
Well, I'm just just assume I'm a grumpy person by nature.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Find you lovely?
Speaker 1 (01:18):
Okay, And let's suppose I take your course. Am I
going to go from being grumpy to happy by virtual
of taking a course?
Speaker 2 (01:25):
No? And this is really not just about emotional transformation.
One of the things that my students learn is emotional
self management. Emotions are are misunderstood by almost everybody. They
think about good feelings and bad feelings. There are no
such thing. Emotions are nothing more than reactions to stimuli
that we have sensed by our primitive brains turned into
(01:46):
the universal language of emotions.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
Fear.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
Anger discussed sadness, interest, joy, etc. In the limbic system
of the brain to give us a signal about what's
going on. If you have particularly acute negative emotionality, which
is called negative aff high negative affect, and by the way,
people watching Bloomberg tend to have high negative affect. How
do I know this. Twenty five percent of the population
has especially high positive and negative effect. They're high affect people,
(02:12):
sixty five percent of CEOs and entrepreneurs. So this is
one of the things that a lot of people watching us. Yeah,
you're still going to be grumpy, but you're going to
understand the meaning of the grumpiness and use it to
learn and grow in life.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
Is there anything more important in the end than happiness?
Speaker 2 (02:27):
That's a debate that philosophers and scientists have been having
for millennia. As a matter of fact, him Aristotle talked
about that. Thomas Aquinas in twelve sixty five said, does
anybody desire anything other than happiness? I say that he
does not. But it depends on what happiness means. And
so if you're thinking about it as a positive feeling,
(02:48):
then there are lots of things that are more important
than that, if you define it correctly. Maybe not.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
In a sentence that's been called the most famous sentence
in the English language written by Thomas Jefferson and the
Declaration Deependance, he ends it by saying that what people
should want is life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
He didn't really define happiness. But are you surprised or
are you surprised that he would put pursuit of happiness
is among the most important things in the world.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
Is revolutionary. As a matter of fact, it's those words
were cribbed from the Virginia Declaration of Rights written by
George Mason some years earlier, and Mason talked about in
the Virginia Declaration about life, liberty, and the pursuit of property. Well,
almost certainly in a conversation with Benjamin Franklin. We don't
know for sure, but this is the supposition, because Benjamin
Franklin is behind all of this interesting and sort of
(03:34):
subversive language about the new American Republic. He's substituted in
this pursuit of happiness, in this idea that you are
the captain of your own destiny in this new nation.
You get to define what this means and then go
after it. And we're going to be about opportunity without
any guarantees. And by the way, that's the country I
still want to live in.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
One are the key elements to being happy? And I
suppose I'm a person who wants to be happy? What
are the key things that make somebody happy?
Speaker 2 (04:00):
Stop thinking it's a feeling. It's not a feeling. People
will define it as I can't quite put words to it,
but I know and I feel it. No, you can't.
Feelings are evidence that your limbic system is working properly,
and you can have a lot of negative emotions and
be a very happy person. In the same way, by
the way that the smell of your turkey is not
your Thanksgiving dinner. Feelings are evidence of happiness. They are
(04:23):
not happiness itself, and so stop looking for feelings number one.
Number two, figure out what happiness actually is. So if
I say, what is your Thanksgiving dinner? There's lots of
ways to define that, but one way is protein, carbohydrates,
and fat. Those are macro nutrients. That's a decomposition of
all food for better longevity and health, which is another
big interest in area of research of mine. So what
(04:44):
are the macro nutrients of happiness? They are enjoyment, satisfaction,
and meaning. Those are the three things to pursue go.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
Through each one. Enjoyment. What does enjoyment mean?
Speaker 2 (04:53):
Enjoyment is not pleasure. That's a big mistake that people
often make, which is just feeling good. That's a limbic phenomenon.
It's parts of your ventral tegmntal area and the ventral
stratum are tapped to make you feel good. That's not it.
If you're looking for that is your life's goal, you'll
wind up in rehab if you're lucky. What enjoyment is
is it takes pleasure. It adds two things to make
(05:15):
them fully conscious and mediated by the prefilled loal cortext
pleasure plus people plus memory. That's what you want, and
that's the kind of life you need. You need to
be able to manage your pleasures in a way that's
social and memorable so that you can have a life
that's in an ongoing way, something that you consider to
be enjoyable. That's the macroninturiant Number one, all right. Number
two is what satisfaction. Satisfaction is the joy that you
(05:38):
get from an accomplishment after struggle. You've struggled a lot.
I mean, you've had a lot of ups and downs
over the course of your career. But the great source
of satisfaction is after all that struggle. The sweetness came
with all the stuff that Carlisle's done, all the stuff
that this show has done. But if it actually had
been easy, it wouldn't be sweet, which is one of
the funny things about humanity. My dog doesn't want to
(05:58):
struggle for his rewards, eat lying down if he could.
We on the other hand, you know, when I go
to a great entrepreneur like you, and if I were
doing the interview and you were the interview e, and
I said, okay, tell me the secrets to all this,
you'd tell me hard things that had happened, and setbacks
that had happened, and disappointments that had happened. Because the hardness,
the difficulty, the suffering is actually part of the sweetness.
(06:18):
That's satisfaction.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
What's the third element, meaning, And that's the big one.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
That's the next book that I'm writing. It's called The
Meaning of Your Life, the Finding Purpose in an age
of emptiness, because that's the crisis of today for particularly
for adults hundred thirty five, is that their life feels
empty and meaningless. And this is what lies behind the
mental health crisis.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
Now you've written that younger people today are not as
happy as their parents were. That's part because of social
media and things like that makes people isolated.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
So it's a complicated thing. But there's basically a climate
and weather problem that we find and I don't mean
that literally. The climate of happiness is all about faith
and philosophy and life, about family, life, about friendship, and
about seeing your life as a calling. Your work is
a calling that is meaningful and serves other people, and
all of those have been in a client That's the
climate of happiness has been ticking down since about nineteen ninety.
(07:11):
Then the weather, the hurricanes, and happiness have been really threefold.
Number one was the advent of social media and screens
in everybody's lives in two thousand and eight, twenty nine,
twenty ten, which has done just raised absolute havoc in
the brains of everybody under thirty five years old. That's
what my New Meaning book is about, is about how
we use our brains differently, and it's vacating the parts
(07:33):
of our brain that we need to assess questions of meaning.
The second is polarization, where baby boomers have tried to
conscript young adults into their culture war, particularly on campuses.
You should feel aggrieved, You're a victim. Everybody's trying to
ruin the world. You need to be angry and afraid
and last but not least, of course, is what happened
with the really misbegotten reaction to the coronavirus epidemic, which
(07:55):
is to send everybody home, make sure that people don't
interact socially. And that was cat for happiness.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
And then you wrote a book on happiness.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
During the coronavirus epidemic. It was it was my it
was my COVID project.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
That was Strength to Strength, from strength to.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
Strength, which comes from the eighty fourth psalm Michel del
Kail and Hebrew, may you go from strength to strength,
which is an ancient Judaic blessing, of.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
Course, and it became a number one New York Times bestseller.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
Yeah, that was unexpected.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
So somebody calls you about this. She read the book
and said, why don't we do a book together. That
was Oprah Winfrey.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
That was Oprah Winfrey.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
Had you ever met her before?
Speaker 2 (08:31):
No? No, no. And what happened was that she was
reading my column during the coronavirus epidemic every Thursday in
the Atlantic and she never left her place in Montecita,
California for a couple of years. But she was learning
and reading. She's a voracious reader. And she said she
was learning a lot from it. She wanted to meet
that guy. So when the book came out from Strength
to Strength in February of twenty twenty two, she literally
(08:52):
read it on the first day and called me, hell, oh,
this is Oprah Winfrey. And I said and I said, yeah,
and this is Batman. I mean, turned out it was
Oprah Winfrey.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
The book came out, and it also was a number
one New York Times bestseller. Yeah, and its title is.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
It's Build the Life you want, The Art and Science
of getting Happier.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
So you have another book coming out very shortly, probably
by the time this airs, it'll be out The Happiness Files.
What is that about?
Speaker 2 (09:15):
That's an edited volume of my thirty five most popular
columns in the Atlantic about work and life. So the
whole idea it's being put out by the Harvard Business
Review Press, is that your life is a startup. That's
the most important enterprise. People think of a company as
a startup, but that's just an extension of who you
are as a person. It's a cultural phenomenon and a
behavioral phenomenon. As a matter of fact. The way to
(09:36):
think about it, if to live the best life, is
to say you, David incorporated your startup. The enterprise is
your life, and that means you need to take risk
appropriately and search and be in search of the true fortune,
which is love and happiness. If you treat it your
life like a startup, your life gets better and it
becomes more successful. And it's thirty five essays that talk
(09:57):
about exactly how to do that. Every chapter. It's intended
to be read over about a month, because it about
thirty five essays, and each chapter gives you the science,
the idea, and the science, and then it says, do
these three things, which is about behavioral change, all of them.
I have tried every column I write. I'm ten weeks
ahead on my Atlantic column, and I'm trying all the
things that I suggest to make sure that there's sound.
(10:18):
I'm my own guinea pig. And if it doesn't work,
I don't write it, I don't publish it.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
How does somebody who's an expert on happiness grow into that?
Let's talk about your background for a moment. So where
were you born?
Speaker 2 (10:29):
Spoke Anne Washington?
Speaker 1 (10:30):
And what did your parents do?
Speaker 2 (10:32):
My father was a lifelong college professor. He was a mathematician,
a PhD biostatistician, so he was a quant guy.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
And your mother what did she do?
Speaker 2 (10:40):
She was an artist. My mother was a good amateur
musician and serious about that, but really she was a
watercolorist of some renowned in the Pacific Northwest.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
And when you were growing up, did you say, I
want to be an expert on happiness or what did
you want to do as a boy?
Speaker 2 (10:54):
I wanted to be the world's greatest front shorn player.
That's what I wanted. I was naturally good at music,
and I learned this by about the age of four.
I learned to read music before I learned to read words,
and I had a natural aptitude for it. Started on
piano at four, after a little bit of violin, and
then by eight I started the French horn. I was
really good at it. I got a lot of acclamation,
I got some praise and appreciation from my parents, and
(11:16):
I realized I like getting attention from adults, positive attention
from adults. So I stuck with it.
Speaker 1 (11:20):
And did people say, this guy is going to be
one of the great French horn players of all time.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
Well, I certainly hoped so, and a lot of people
had a lot of faith that I had a tremendous
amount of potential so I was going to go to
conservatory and then go pro. That was the idea.
Speaker 1 (11:34):
So you graduate from high school and you said to
your parents, I guess I'm not going to college. I'm
going to go be a French horn player. What did
your academic father say.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
Well, I went to college for a year. I went
to the California Institute of the Arts. So I was
going to study with my teacher, somebody I had met
in previous summers, a great frenchhorn player, one of the
great soloists of the time. And it didn't really work out.
It turns out to the right strategy for college is
not to drop all your required classes. Tried to tell
my kids that at this point, but the result is
(12:02):
I was well dropped out, kicked out, splitting hairs at
this point. I made it ten months, all.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
Right, you made it ten months. Then need to say
to your parents, guess what, I'm going to be a
French worn player for life.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
Yeah. So I was actually transferring to the Curtis Institute
of Music in Philadelphia, which is sort of the elite
music conservatory, and I was very very lucky to get
a spot.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
Great place.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
It is a great place, and during the summer before
I was going to go there, I was playing at
the Marlborough Music Festival with Rudolph Serkin and some of
the great chamber musicians at the time, and I was
offered a job playing chamber music with a brass quintet
out of Maryland, and so I took the job instead
of going back to school and went pro nineteen.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
And then you ultimately moved to Spain.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
Yeah, so I was on tour. I did that for
about six years, making very little money but having a
great time and learning a lot. I also toured for
a couple of years during that time with a great
jazz guitar player named Charlie Bird, who was, you know,
the original American originator of the bossa nova style, et cetera.
So I was on a concert tour playing chamber music
in the Burgundy region of France in the summer of
nineteen eighty eight and I met a girl who was
(13:01):
also was studying music and actually at a concert. I
was playing the concert and there was a girl in
the front row smiling at me, and I thought, well,
that's not normal. I should check that out. So afterward
I introduced myself. Turned out she didn't speak a word
of English, and she wasn't French. Turns out she was
Spanish Catalan as a matter of fact, from Barcelona. I
learned that not a word of English, we didn't know
a word in common. So I did the right thing
(13:23):
and asked her out. And how did you know if
she said yes? I well, because I got a translator
said yeah, she'd love to have dinner with you. And
so that was an odd dinner, full of gesticulations and
hand gestures, etc. But we were twenty four years old.
And then I went home and I called my dad
and I said, I think I met the girl I'm
going to marry. And he said, really, that's great, can't
(13:44):
wait to meet her. I said, I have some difficulties here.
I mean, she doesn't speak a word of English, she
doesn't live in the United States, and she has no
idea we're going to get married. He said, well, you
better get a plan, son, and so I did. I
was living in New York at the time, barely making
against meet, and I started looking at different opportunities, and
through sheer serendipity, I was offered a couple of months
(14:04):
later a job in the Barcelona Symphony as the associate
principal French horn and I said, ah, sign from God.
I moved to Barcelona and worked on closing the deal. Still,
it took me two years to convince her though, David, So.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
Did you get married two years later or something? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (14:17):
Yeah, two years later. It took me. I was you know,
I had to work on it a long time. After all,
Europeans are very modern and they don't believe in marriage,
so it took it took a good deal of convincing.
Speaker 1 (14:26):
I should point out, you're still married to her. Yeah,
it is now married.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
Thirty four, thirty four or parents of three in a
couple of months, grandparents of four.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
Is having a relationship with another person more likely to
produce happiness or more likely to produce divorce?
Speaker 2 (14:43):
Well, it it depends on the relationship. Your results may vary.
As they say in the in the you know, the
ads for financial products and pharmaceuticals. The truth is that
a good marriage is the single biggest predictor of the
happiest possible life. But a bad marriage works in the
other direction, to be sure, and so that's why it's
that's the most important investment decision anybody watching us will
ever make.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
Where did you start teaching academically.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
I started in Georgia State. So I finished my PhD
in nineteen ninety eight, and Georgia State University in Atlanta
was the first place that hired me, and I did
three years there, and then I moved to Syracuse, which
was in public policy, was and arguably still as the
top school in public policy.
Speaker 1 (15:19):
In the company. Maxwell School, the Maxwell School exactly right,
So you teach there for ten years.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
I taught there for I taught it, Georgia State for
three and Syracuse for seven and a half.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
Seven okay, so ten years as an academic, ten and
a half years Maxwell. Then somebody decides to they want
you to be the head of AEI. But why would
you be qualified to be the head of the American
Enterprise SINS too?
Speaker 2 (15:39):
I was not qualified and I was clearly not qualified
for that job, and it was I was sort of
the last chance saloon, I think, for the board of
directors that the American enterprisingers to do. At the time,
I was a visiting scholar at AI, and I had
always aspired to do more. AI is the greatest thing
tank in America. It's based on the idea that the
free enterprise system has done more to lift people up
from the margins of society than any other single idea
(15:59):
in history, and that the United States at its best
is a gift to the world.
Speaker 1 (16:04):
All Right, So you took that job, you became the CEO,
and you stayed there for ten.
Speaker 2 (16:07):
Years eleven almost a lot of ten and a half.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
So after eleven years you say, Okay, I now want
to do something else. Why do you decide to do
something else after eleven years is going very well?
Speaker 2 (16:16):
I had figured out by that time that my career
is best when I take it down to the studs
every decade and start again. That's when I'm most interested.
That's when I can funge the skills that i've as
a leader, as a professional, as a person in my soul.
I can take them to the next thing and do
really well with a lot of inspiration.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
Most people, before they leave a job, they already have
another job lined up. Yeah, you left AI when you
were at the top of your game, but you didn't
have anything lined up.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
Not really. I mean I had some ideas, maybe I'll
go back to academia. But the whole point is basically this.
I had a heart to heart conversation one of my
best friends is your partner Dan Dan Yellow at Carlisle
and I said to him, look, I'm feeling a little
I'm mitching a little bit. I'm thinking about new things.
And how do you think about your career as a CEO?
How do you think about finishing your career as a CEO?
(17:00):
I was fifty five years old, fifty four years old
at the time. And he said he thought about it,
and he said something very wise to me that's probably
useful for people watching us right now. He says, when
it comes to ending, finishing up as a leader, especially
as a business leader, you've got two choices. You can
leave before you're ready, or you can leave on somebody
else's terms. You choose, choose wisely. And I thought to myself, Yep,
(17:22):
I'm not ready, and that means it's time to go.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
What did you teach initially at Harvard?
Speaker 2 (17:26):
So I came in and I taught in the first
semester of the Kennedy School nonprofit management, which is something
that I've taught a lot about. I've written a textbook
on that, and that's really about how to create societal change,
how to create a better society in the basis of
non governmental, nonprofit activity, but it's really about how you're
going to transform society outside of the world of government
or for profit businesses. And that went really well. But
(17:48):
then when I went over across the river to the
Business School for my first semester there in the spring,
I introduced I created a class called Leadership and Happiness,
and that really took off because that was where my
heart was.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
You're teaching this course and all of a sudden, people
by word of mouth say this guy is interesting and
maybe we can learn how to be happier, and so
the class goes from a few people to a lot
of people. Right.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
Yeah, we filled it the first time. I think we
had seventy two people as a full class the first time,
but it was clear that even by the second year
we could fill two sections of ninety even with a
waiting list, because it's a different kind of class than
what they typically get. On the first day of class,
I say, look, you think that if you have money, power, pleasure,
and fame, then you'll get happiness for free, and it's
a lie, and you know it. The right solution is
(18:31):
for you to search for happiness and then you'll have
the success that you truly crave. That's what this class
is all about.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
But if you are a person who's an expert on happiness,
you can't ever be grumpy. I mean, if you ever
get in fights with people because you're not in a
good mood, or you have to be happy all the time.
Speaker 2 (18:47):
Well, one of the reasons that I study happiness is
I want to lash myself to the mast. I want
to hold myself accountable to be the person that I
want to be. Not that I'll have to be happy
happy all the time, but it's not right for me
to display my own happiness in such a way that
brings other people down. That's an unethical thing to do. So,
you know, being a jerk in an airport. That's truly
off brand for me, and it's something that I try
(19:07):
to make sure that I never do. Well. Being is
a combination of happiness and unhappiness, and they're not opposites.
They're actually mediated in different parts of the brain because
they have different purposes. My problem is not low happiness.
My problem is high unhappiness, which is often the case
with people in my line of work. For that matter,
(19:28):
your line of work. So for me, my particular challenge
is making sure that I'm very serious about managing my
negative affect every single day, and I do that with
the science that I've been studying over the past well decades.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
At this point, do you ever get mad and somebody
just yell and lose your temper or you don't do that?
Speaker 2 (19:45):
Well, I don't do that very often, and part of
that is because I've learned how to manage my limbic
system so it doesn't manage me. That's getting as much
space as I can between what I feel and what
I do. That's called metacognition.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
Many people put themselves forward as leaders. Presumably they want
to be a leader because it makes them happy to
be a leader rather than a follower. But how do
you define leadership and as leadership if you have, it
make you happier than if you're a follower.
Speaker 2 (20:11):
So that's a good question, and it's a complicated question
because there are a lot of leaders in business who
are actually unhappier after they ascend to the corner office.
I see this constantly. The number one emotion that people
feel in the first two years as a brand new
CEO's anger, which is not what people expect. It's like,
you know, hey, man, if I get the CEO job,
I'm finally going to have achieved everything I've always wanted.
(20:33):
And it turns out that it's really really tough for
the most talented people in the country in the economy.
They will never be lifted to the level of incompetence.
There is no Peter principle. There's kind of a striver
Peter principle next to it, which is that they will
be if they let themselves be lifted up to the
level of unhappiness because they go beyond what they really
(20:55):
enjoy doing where they can get flow. And being a
leader is hard because there's rarely flow. It is a
service profession. Leadership is about lifting people up. That's what
it's all about, and earning it because you've lifted other
people up to become their best selves.
Speaker 1 (21:09):
So if I say to somebody, I've just interviewed Arthur Brooks,
I spend forty five minutes with him, and somebody says,
I don't have time to watch it. Give me the
one minute version. How can I be happy?
Speaker 2 (21:19):
So the world says that for you to be happy,
and this is based on mother nature. This is not capitalism.
Mother nature doesn't care if you're happy. So she imposes
this on you. She says, for you to have the
best life, you need to love things, get a lot
of them, use people. They're there for your advancement and comforts,
and worship yourself because you're the center of the universe.
That's what the world tells you. That's what your nature
tells you. That's wrong. Happiness comes from changing the verbs
(21:41):
and the nouns. The right happiness formula and this is
scientifically validated. But because we've talked about it in this show,
is number one. Love people, use things, and worship the
divine as you understand it. And if you do that,
you're on the right track.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
Why do you decide to go to Harvard among all
these things you probably had available to you.
Speaker 2 (21:58):
Well, you know, academia is my natural home. I wanted
to go back and do something that was going to
be really positive and meaningful for society, and so that
required what we Catholic people call discernment, and discernment is
this or discernment of spirits, is trying to figure out
what's what you're meant to do to actually find out
you're calling. And there's an ancient way of doing this.
There's a technique for doing this that people watching us
(22:20):
can can do whether they're Catholic or not religious or
not as a matter of fact, and that's called a pilgrimage.
So the whole idea is if you walk a long
way when you have a single question, you're more likely
to find it. There's actually science behind with this is sound.
I walk the community Santiago in the summer of twenty
nineteen after I left AI, and by the time I
finished walking a few hundred miles, I wrote a mission
(22:42):
statement for myself, which is, as a behavioral scientist, I'm
going to spend the rest of my life lifting people
up and bringing them together in bonds of happiness and
love using science and ideas. And so that's what I
decided to do at Harvard.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
What is next for you? What next world do you
want to conquer?
Speaker 2 (22:56):
So this is a good question, and at this point
in my life there's a little bit less central planning,
there's a lot more serendipity. I'm thinking about the opportunities
that come my way to live up to my mission.
My mission is to lift people up and bring them
together in bonds and happiness and love using my skills
science and ideas. So if there's an opportunity for me
to do that at scale, I want to do it.
I want a billion people to understand the happiness science.
(23:17):
That's what I want. That's what changes the world is
when people have aspirations for their own life, for something better.
The reason that the United States is such a great country,
is such a successful countries because people had personal aspiration
for something better for their own lives. And that's what
I want, that entrepreneurial notion that I can build a
life with greater happiness, and I have to find David,
this is my challenge. I have to find better and
(23:38):
better ways to scale this.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
Thanks for listening to hear more of my interviews. You
can subscribe and download my podcast on Spotify, Apple, or
wherever you listen.
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