February 6, 2025 • 22 mins
Brandie Smith is the John and Adrienne Mars Director of the Smithsonian's National Zoo and Conservation Biology Institute. In an episode of "The David Rubenstein Show: Peer to Peer Conversations," she talks about the history of the giant pandas first arriving in the United States in the early 1970s as a state gift from China, the National Zoo's wider conservation efforts, and what it's like to oversee the return of the popular pandas to the capital. This interview was recorded January 13 in Washington DC.
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
There's a great deal of excitement in Washington these days,
but perhaps the greatest excitement is the arrival of two
pandas from China. I had a chance recently to sit
down with Brandy Smith, who oversees the National Zoo and
oversees the panda program as well, to talk to her
about the pandas. Now we're in the Panda house because
pandas have returned to the National Zoo. Why are pandas
(00:24):
so popular? I think I read that about eighty percent
of the people that come to the National Zoo come
because they want to see the pandas. I mean, they're
nice animals, but why are they that popular?
Speaker 2 (00:33):
I think there are a lot of reasons. I think,
first of all, they're cute. They're adorable. People just want
to see them. And the thing I love about pandas
is the way that they're built. It actually, we are
genetically designed to love pandas. They have these round features,
the round ears, the round eyes, these cute voices, and
what we ping when we see a baby is the
(00:54):
same thing that pings when we see a panda, and
so we're designed to think they're adorable. But they're also
they're rare so I think it's a matter of having
the opportunity to see them. You take the opportunity when
you can. And you know, pandas are a story of joy.
They're a story of hope and of happiness and success,
a successful program that everyone is a part of.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
When did you get the new pandas?
Speaker 2 (01:19):
So these pandas came in October of twenty four, so
just a few months ago.
Speaker 1 (01:24):
And how old are they.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
They're both three years old. The pandas are here not
just because they're adorable, but they're actually part of a
breeding program that's helping to save the species. And so
we wanted to get the most genetically valuable animals, and
we narrowed it down to a few pairs. But I
will say we sent a veterinarian to China just to
(01:46):
check the records of the different animals, and we did
ask them to pick the cutest pair.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
As I recall when Richard Nixon went to China when
the famous trip in the early nineteen seventies as a gift,
Malzi Tung said, here are to pandas, and they came
to the National Zoo, and at that time, I think
they were the only pandas in the United States they were.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
At that time. That was really the start of the
giant panda conservation program as we know it.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
They were gifts to the country. And subsequent to that, China,
as I understand it, began a program of lending pandas
or renting pandas to zoos around the world. And I
thought I read that there were like twenty seven zoos
or something like that around the world that have pandas.
Is that how it works.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
We received the first pandas they were a state gift,
and then there was the loan program that was to
other zoos, and as part of that program, there's a
conservation fee that zoos pay to China to the panda
breeding centers in China, and the pandas that we have
now are part of that breeding program.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Was it easy to get the pandas to come back
to Washington, d C. Did the Chinese say, we have
some extra pandas, we don't know what to do with them,
we're going to give them to you.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
Well, it was a little more difficult than that. It
probably took us. It was about over the course of
a year where we had conversations with our colleagues in
China and we were able to get pandas here very quickly.
I think it's a testament to the relationship we've built
over decades, to the conservation success that we've had here
with our pandas and our panda program. And so it
(03:13):
was a lot of conversations, but I think we always
knew in the end that we did want pandas at
the National Zoo.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
How big is the National Zoo? How many acres do
you have here?
Speaker 2 (03:22):
So we have two facilities. We have the zoo, which
is in Washington, d c. It's one hundred and seventy
five acres in Rock Creek Park. And then we also
have a facility called our Conservation Biology Institute, and that's
thirty two hundred acres and it's in front Royal, Virginia.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
Now, when I was a little boy growing up in Baltimore,
we had a zoo there and that still exists. But
the animals always seem to be in big cages. They
didn't seem to be able to roam around that much. Now,
my understanding is that people that are in charge of
zoos let animals have more freedom and more space than
they used to. But what about the argument that some
people say it's not nice to have zoos at all,
(03:57):
because let the animals stay in the wild. Wat should
we have people like me gawking at them all the time.
How do you respond to that?
Speaker 2 (04:02):
I love that question because it's asked by people who
care deeply about animals. And so I'll answer in two parts,
And one is the emotional part about about animals and zoos.
And I always, you know, I think about people who
have pets. Right, people get pets. The most of them
aren't trained to care for them. They don't know that much.
They bring them to their house, they have them in
their apartment, you know, go for walks every so often.
(04:26):
But they know those animals are cared for. They know
that those animals are happy. They know that they love them,
and they're loved back. Now imagine that, except imagine that
you have experts, hundreds of experts who are trained in
the care of animals. Right, people spend their entire lives
caring for these animals with the best nutrition, the best
(04:47):
veterinary medicine, you know, habitats, they're scientifically designed to meet
their behavioral biological needs. And that's animals and zoos. We
know they're happy, We love them. And we know their
loved pack.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
So what is other than pandas. Who are the biggest
attraction or what are the biggest attraction at the National Zoo?
Speaker 2 (05:07):
You know people, we call them the charismatic megafauna. People
love the big animals, the pandas, elephants, lions, tigers, cheetahs.
But one fact that I think is really funny, the
most searched animal on our website are snakes, and so
I don't know if people are searching them because they
want to see them or if they're searching them because
they're afraid to see them.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
Let's go back and talk about the pandas because they're
so popular and obviously you get a lot of visitors
because of that. So where do pandas come from? Why
is it only in one place, as I understand it,
where pandas are. You've got two hundred countries in the world,
Why only one country has pandas.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
So that's just the area they are indigenous to, kind
of the cool mountain forests in China, So that's the
habitat that sustains them the best. And pandas Actually they're
obligate bamboo eaters. If they don't eat bamboo they'll get sick.
So they're very heavily dependent upon having the appropriate habitat.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
Now, originally pandas, which were maybe a couple million years old,
we think they used to have a meat diet, as
I understand they were carnivores, but then maybe five hundred
thousand years ago they became herbivores. So I don't know
if that's easy to deal with your stomach. But because
they only eat vegetables or non meat, do they have
enough nutrition to get through the day.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
A lot of people don't realize this pandas are. They're
taxonomically their carnivores, and they are bears. They are true bears,
and they have evolved to take advantage of a more
plentiful resource. They don't have to chase down their food.
It pretty much just grows up around them as they
fit there. So they've evolved special adaptations to be able
to consume bamboo as quickly as possible. But what it
(06:47):
lacks in quality, they make up for in quantity. So
the pandas here at the National Zoo, we feed each
panda one hundred pounds of freshly cut bamboo every single day.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
And if you eat one hundred pounds of food, which
is bamboo every day, one hundred pounds a day. Doesn't
that take a lot of energy? And does that mean
that they sleep a lot? Because they use up a
lot of energy.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
Eating they do, they're digesting, so they spend their times.
I feel like a panda's life is eating, sleeping, and playing.
So I also think we love pandas because they're living
like our best lives. And so it's so fun to
watch them because sometimes you'll see a panda just, you know,
bowing through bamboo leaves and they'll actually stop for a second,
and you think it almost looks like they're taking a
(07:29):
little mini naps. They digest their bamboo before they just
keep eating more.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
Now when they pick up the bamboo, and you grow
your own bamboo, right, you don't bring it in from China.
You grow it somewhere in the National Zoo Area.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
We actually grow. So we have the facility in Virginia
thirty two hundred acres. We do a lot of our
research there. All of our labs are there for all
of the conservation and science work that we do, but
we also grow. We grow all of our own hey,
our own alfalfa, and our bamboo as well.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
Now panda bear has like we have fingers, Panda bear
seems to have like a six finger help them pick
up the bamboo. Is that an evolutionary trick or something
to help them pick up bamboo.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
It's not really a thumb. It's a modified wristbone that
actually almost it's a flexible wristbone that functions almost like
a thumb as they hold Think about as they hold
on to bamboo, because bamboo's circular, so if you watch them,
it looks like they're holding on and it's part of
that evolution from being instead of investing in being a
better predator right and being able to chase down their meat,
(08:28):
they invested evolutionarily and being the best bamboo eater you
can imagine.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
Now, there's a problem that pandas have in that there's
so few of them. It was for a long time
that panders were thought to be an endangered species. Now
they're called vulnerable. But how many pandas are there in
the entire world.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
So this is incredible because this is all due to
this panda program, and this is so important. So when
we started with giant pandas fifty years ago, there were
fewer than a thousand pandas in the world. Right, we're
talking in the wild and ze fewer than a thousand
and decades later, there are close to two thousand pandas
(09:06):
in the wild. Now, actually you think a little over
eighteen hundred. There are over seven hundred pandas in breeding centers.
So as part of this program, we have tripled the
number of pandas on the planet.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
It's still a small number of pandas, it's.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
A small number. But what we're also doing, and this
is what I love about the Panda program. People come here,
they see the pandas, they're cute, it's great. But when
they contribute, when they buy a stuffed panda or a
T shirt or something, they are actually funding our conservation efforts.
So not only are we breeding pandas, not only are
we learning more about giant pandas, but we're saving their
(09:40):
habitat in the wild. So when this started, there were
probably just ten about ten small little reserves where pandas
could live. There are panda reserves in China three times
the size of Yellowstone. So because of this program, there
are more pandas on the planet, more quality panda habitat
(10:02):
in the wild, and pandas have gone from being endangered
to being vulnerable.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
Now. One of the problems that pandas have and the
reason they're so few, is that their ability to reproduce
is the most limited, it seems, are the most challenging
in the entire animal world. So I think the female
panda can reproduce only a short period of time, maybe
one day a year or something like that. So the
male has to show up at the right time, right,
and how does that work?
Speaker 2 (10:25):
Well, it's actually really interesting. So the males. The female
has a very narrow window where she's reproductively viable, but
the males go through something called rut, so it's much longer.
So basically for months that could overlap multiple females estrus.
The males are basically they're looking for a mate, so
(10:46):
they are they're scent marking, they're patrolling, they're covering a
large territory. And what they're really doing is they're both
looking for a mate and they're advertising to females that
they would be a great father to their cubs.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
So many VIPs I soon call you up and say
I'd like to come bring my grandchildren, my children. I
want to come myself to see pantas. You get a
lot of that.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
So there are a lot of people who want to
see giant pandas. And the thing I love the most
is we are part of the Smithsonian and so everyone,
no matter how VIP you are, you can come here.
You can see giant pandas for free.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
Let me ask you how one becomes the head of
the National Zoo. Let's talk about your background.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
So where did you grow up in Indiana, Pennsylvania. It's
in western Pennsylvania, small town we had. I had a
rural delivery address and most of my relatives are coal miners.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
So when you were growing up and you're a little girl,
did you play with dolls or do you play with pandas?
Speaker 2 (11:41):
I didn't have pandas, so stuffed animals, and you know,
our neighbors had cows, so I'd always go over and
you know, you know, feed the cows, and you know,
see my friends who worked at who lived on farms.
Speaker 1 (11:53):
So you told your parents you want to be a
National Zoo director? How did you let your parents know
that you wanted to be are you? Are you trained
as a zoologist?
Speaker 2 (12:01):
So I actually I was a young girl interested in science,
you know, in the middle of nowhere in Pennsylvania, and
I thought that if you wanted to be a scientist,
that meant you were a doctor. And I thought that
was my only career path. And I actually got it.
My undergraduate degree is in biology, and you know, I
(12:22):
thought about it and I thought, this isn't what I
want to do. I want to work with animals. So
I was about to start an internship with an ophthalmologist
and I called the Pittsburgh Zoo and I just said,
I want to do what you do. Tell me, how
did you get this job? And because this was, you know,
back in the day, the guy said, he said, actually,
I'm on my way to interview for a summer intern
(12:45):
and I'll interview you right now, and if you do well,
I'll hire you. And so I got the job and
I went home and I told my mother that instead
of doing an internship with a doctor, I was going
to intern as a zoo keeper. And well, we were
driving at the time, so one is, she almost drove
(13:05):
the car off the road, but the other it was
the first time I ever heard my mother swear, and
she said, she's like, at least do something respectable with
your life. Be a lawyer.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
Okay, so you get this internship and you obviously must
have liked it. So then what happened?
Speaker 2 (13:19):
I always tell people I never made a smart career
choice in my life, so I always just kind of
followed my heart, and I did the internship at the zoo.
The thing I love about zoos is not just that
they educate and inspire people, but they are unique conservation organizations.
There are species that exist on the planet today because
of zoos, because we care for animals and can breathe them.
(13:41):
Blackfooted ferret, Panamaanian golden frog, simitar horned rigx, California conders.
The list goes on. And so I was really fascinated
with the idea of genetically managing how we manage these
species genetically so that they're saved for the wild. I
got a master's degree in zoology that focused on genetic management.
Then I got a job in another zoo, I did
(14:03):
more internships, I got my PhD, and eventually I ended
up here.
Speaker 1 (14:06):
All right, so you've got your PhD in zoology.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
It's a program at University of Maryland. It's called behavior, Ecology,
Evolution and Systematics.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
So and then you get a job immediately there after
at the National Zoo.
Speaker 2 (14:17):
Well, actually I had a job. I was the head
of conservation and science for an organization called the Association
of Zoos and Aquariums. So we set kind of conservation
goals for zoos, accredited zoos across the country. It's an office,
it's an association, and I just really missed. I missed
being in a zoo. I missed the animals. We create
magic for people on a daily basis, and I missed
(14:38):
being part of that.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
So how many zoos are there in the United States?
Speaker 2 (14:41):
So there are about twenty five hundred licensed animal exhibitors
in the United States, But then there's also an accrediting
program by the Association of Zoos and Aquariums, and I
think under two hundred and fifty zoos are accredited, So
less than ten percent of zoos in the country are accredited,
and those are the best of the best.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
So the most famous in the United States were the biggest.
I would think leaving the National Zoo a side is
the San Diego Zoo Is that the biggest? Actually?
Speaker 2 (15:06):
So, I do think it's the most well known zoo.
A lot of people are very familiar with that zoo.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
Over the years the National Zoo is not the only
zoo in the United States that's had pandas, right, and
so I thought there were at one point four San Diego, Memphis, Atlanta,
and Washington. They still have.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
Them now as part of the loan program started at
roughly the same time, so a lot of the pandas
were kind of moving through in cohorts, and so a
lot of zoos in the past two or three years
their pandas were older and returned to China. And so
right now only the National Zoo and the San Diego
Zoo have giant pandas.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
So go back and finish up on your career. So
you're working at this association and you now say, I
really want to be with animals directly. So then did
you apply to the National Zoo.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
Yeah, there was an opening for a general curator. It
was more of a curator of mammals, and it was
also the curator of giant pandas. And so my story
actually came full circle because when I got the job
here and I was in charge of the giant pandas,
my mother was so proud.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
Did she come to visit the pandas? Ever?
Speaker 2 (16:08):
Oh right away?
Speaker 1 (16:10):
So all right, So then you were the head of
the mammal program, including that the pandas. When did you
become the head of the National Zoo itself the whole head?
Speaker 2 (16:18):
At first I was essentially curator of mammals and curator
of giant pandas, and then after a few years I
became the head of Animal Care, so I saw all
of the animals, the veterinarians, nutrition, wrecords, behavior, all of
the departments. And then eventually I became deputy director, and
then a few years later I became director.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
So if you walk around and did she the pandas,
did they recognize you?
Speaker 2 (16:43):
It is one of the saddest movements of my life.
When I was curator of giant pandas and I was
here all of the time, the pandas knew who I was.
They recognized me or at least my voice, and I
could call their name and they would show an interest.
But as director, I don't. I'm not with them every day.
I'm not the ringer food and love and happiness.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
So today, how many different species do you have at
the National Zoo?
Speaker 2 (17:05):
We have about three thousand animals from about three hundred
different species.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
And how many professionals do you have working here.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
At both locations. We've got about four hundred people.
Speaker 1 (17:17):
And how many people come a year to the National Zoo.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
So just under two million people come every year. And
we actually we only had one year without Giant Pandas,
and what we noticed was that our attendants actually dropped
twenty percent when Giant pandas weren't here.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
What did you do when COVID came? Nobody showed up?
Speaker 2 (17:37):
Then, right, we didn't have any visitors, but we had
to keep working. So if we're responsible for the living collection,
I'll actually never forget that moment because the world is
closing down because of COVID. And our team gathered in
our line in Tiger Building and the offices there have
this kind of bunker like feel, and we were there
and we said, okay, what do we do? And everyone's concern.
(17:58):
The concern wasn't I can't go home. The concern was
what happens if I get sick and I can't take
care of my animals? And so we had animal care.
We had a team and b team that didn't cross,
so we could always have someone who could be there
to take care of the animals.
Speaker 1 (18:14):
Now does a China say if you have two pandas
that they've rented to you, and there's a baby panda
that they owned the baby panda, or do you own
the baby panda?
Speaker 2 (18:23):
So they own all pandas. But this is a good
thing because the majority of pandas live in China. And
so again we're not producing pandas just because we went
to although it's wonderful. These pandas are all part of
a conservation program. So if a cub was here and
it grew up here, it can't breed with its parents,
(18:43):
and so the cub returns to China so that it
can be part of the breeding program.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
When a baby is let's say, has some fur and
can see and hear, a human can pick that baby up, right,
I mean, let's say in a zoo or a control setting,
you're allowed to pick up a panda a small a size.
But is that right?
Speaker 2 (19:02):
We do wellness checks on the cubs soon after they're born,
so we do actually get hands on our giant pandas
just to make sure they're doing fine and they're healthy
and everything's okay.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
After a panda is what size? Is it not possible
for a zoo keeper to actually be in the cage
alone with them because they're bears and it could be dangerous.
Speaker 2 (19:20):
So it's actually usually when they're about a year old,
they hit about one hundred pounds, and that's the time
when they start to get they're not predators. They're not
going to see you as food, right, they don't see
you as a threat. But even if they just do right,
they've got strong jaws. They've got sharp claws, so an
animal could inadvertently hurt you even without trying.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
It probably went into a panda, you know place right now,
like here where the pandas are, and there they is
now weigh three hundred pounds. Would that be dangerous And it.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
Would be and not because again they're not predators, so
they wouldn't see you as food. It wouldn't look like
a tasty treat if you walked in, but they would think.
They could think that you're a toy. They could think
that we're something that we gave to them just to
play with their jaws. Their bite force actually equals that
of a lion or tiger. So if they wanted to
(20:13):
play with you, they've got the claws, they got the teeth,
they got the strength. They could do some damage.
Speaker 1 (20:17):
So let's talk about the pandacam for a moment. You
have a camera that watches pandas twenty four hours a day.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
I think people really enjoy watching the pandacam because they're
seeing them how we watch them. We decided we're going
to do something a little bit different this year because
it's not just people in the United States, but people
around the world are watching the pandacam. We want to
do it during the daytime, you know, during the twelve
hours during the day when people are when you know,
(20:45):
the pandas are awake, when keepers are interacting with them.
So what we're going to do is we'll have twelve
hours with the giant pandas and then replay at twelve
hours for the people on the other side of the
world who want to see giant pandas.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
Have you thought about selling advertising on your pandacam.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
We are Smithsonians Nationals Zoo, and so we receive about
sixty percent of our funding from the federal government, and
as such, we want to make sure that we are
open and available to every single person who wants to
see tiant pandas and not necessarily be assailed by by ads.
Speaker 1 (21:15):
So sixty percent of your funding comes from the federal government.
The other forty percent just falls out of the sky.
Where does that come from?
Speaker 2 (21:21):
Well, we're really fortunate, you know, we were talking about
the pandacam and so Boeing sponsors our pandacams their corporations
to help splonster us. We have some incredibly generous donors
who support us through philanthropy, and we also generate revenue.
And so when people come here, they come to the zoo,
and they come here for free because we're Smithsonian. But
(21:42):
when they buy a stuffed panda or a T shirt,
or they eat, you know, a hamburger or a hot dog here,
that money goes to support the zoo in all of
our conservation work.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
So if somebody wants to know something about the National Zoo,
and you've got two or three sentences, you can give them.
What is a summary of at the National Zoo, Why
is it so great? And why should somebody visit the
National Zoo.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
National Zoo is part of Smithsonian. We are free, we
are open and welcome to everyone. And when you come here,
you are not just seeing the animals, You are not
just having an incredible time that will stay with you
and your family, through the rest of your lives. You
are part of our conservation success.
Speaker 1 (22:23):
Thanks for listening to hear more of my interviews. You
can subscribe and download my podcast on Spotify, Apple, or
wherever you listen.
There's a great deal of excitement in Washington these days,
but perhaps the greatest excitement is the arrival of two
pandas from China. I had a chance recently to sit
down with Brandy Smith, who oversees the National Zoo and
oversees the panda program as well, to talk to her
about the pandas. Now we're in the Panda house because
pandas have returned to the National Zoo. Why are pandas
(00:24):
so popular? I think I read that about eighty percent
of the people that come to the National Zoo come
because they want to see the pandas. I mean, they're
nice animals, but why are they that popular?
Speaker 2 (00:33):
I think there are a lot of reasons. I think,
first of all, they're cute. They're adorable. People just want
to see them. And the thing I love about pandas
is the way that they're built. It actually, we are
genetically designed to love pandas. They have these round features,
the round ears, the round eyes, these cute voices, and
what we ping when we see a baby is the
(00:54):
same thing that pings when we see a panda, and
so we're designed to think they're adorable. But they're also
they're rare so I think it's a matter of having
the opportunity to see them. You take the opportunity when
you can. And you know, pandas are a story of joy.
They're a story of hope and of happiness and success,
a successful program that everyone is a part of.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
When did you get the new pandas?
Speaker 2 (01:19):
So these pandas came in October of twenty four, so
just a few months ago.
Speaker 1 (01:24):
And how old are they.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
They're both three years old. The pandas are here not
just because they're adorable, but they're actually part of a
breeding program that's helping to save the species. And so
we wanted to get the most genetically valuable animals, and
we narrowed it down to a few pairs. But I
will say we sent a veterinarian to China just to
(01:46):
check the records of the different animals, and we did
ask them to pick the cutest pair.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
As I recall when Richard Nixon went to China when
the famous trip in the early nineteen seventies as a gift,
Malzi Tung said, here are to pandas, and they came
to the National Zoo, and at that time, I think
they were the only pandas in the United States they were.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
At that time. That was really the start of the
giant panda conservation program as we know it.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
They were gifts to the country. And subsequent to that, China,
as I understand it, began a program of lending pandas
or renting pandas to zoos around the world. And I
thought I read that there were like twenty seven zoos
or something like that around the world that have pandas.
Is that how it works.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
We received the first pandas they were a state gift,
and then there was the loan program that was to
other zoos, and as part of that program, there's a
conservation fee that zoos pay to China to the panda
breeding centers in China, and the pandas that we have
now are part of that breeding program.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Was it easy to get the pandas to come back
to Washington, d C. Did the Chinese say, we have
some extra pandas, we don't know what to do with them,
we're going to give them to you.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
Well, it was a little more difficult than that. It
probably took us. It was about over the course of
a year where we had conversations with our colleagues in
China and we were able to get pandas here very quickly.
I think it's a testament to the relationship we've built
over decades, to the conservation success that we've had here
with our pandas and our panda program. And so it
(03:13):
was a lot of conversations, but I think we always
knew in the end that we did want pandas at
the National Zoo.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
How big is the National Zoo? How many acres do
you have here?
Speaker 2 (03:22):
So we have two facilities. We have the zoo, which
is in Washington, d c. It's one hundred and seventy
five acres in Rock Creek Park. And then we also
have a facility called our Conservation Biology Institute, and that's
thirty two hundred acres and it's in front Royal, Virginia.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
Now, when I was a little boy growing up in Baltimore,
we had a zoo there and that still exists. But
the animals always seem to be in big cages. They
didn't seem to be able to roam around that much. Now,
my understanding is that people that are in charge of
zoos let animals have more freedom and more space than
they used to. But what about the argument that some
people say it's not nice to have zoos at all,
(03:57):
because let the animals stay in the wild. Wat should
we have people like me gawking at them all the time.
How do you respond to that?
Speaker 2 (04:02):
I love that question because it's asked by people who
care deeply about animals. And so I'll answer in two parts,
And one is the emotional part about about animals and zoos.
And I always, you know, I think about people who
have pets. Right, people get pets. The most of them
aren't trained to care for them. They don't know that much.
They bring them to their house, they have them in
their apartment, you know, go for walks every so often.
(04:26):
But they know those animals are cared for. They know
that those animals are happy. They know that they love them,
and they're loved back. Now imagine that, except imagine that
you have experts, hundreds of experts who are trained in
the care of animals. Right, people spend their entire lives
caring for these animals with the best nutrition, the best
(04:47):
veterinary medicine, you know, habitats, they're scientifically designed to meet
their behavioral biological needs. And that's animals and zoos. We
know they're happy, We love them. And we know their
loved pack.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
So what is other than pandas. Who are the biggest
attraction or what are the biggest attraction at the National Zoo?
Speaker 2 (05:07):
You know people, we call them the charismatic megafauna. People
love the big animals, the pandas, elephants, lions, tigers, cheetahs.
But one fact that I think is really funny, the
most searched animal on our website are snakes, and so
I don't know if people are searching them because they
want to see them or if they're searching them because
they're afraid to see them.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
Let's go back and talk about the pandas because they're
so popular and obviously you get a lot of visitors
because of that. So where do pandas come from? Why
is it only in one place, as I understand it,
where pandas are. You've got two hundred countries in the world,
Why only one country has pandas.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
So that's just the area they are indigenous to, kind
of the cool mountain forests in China, So that's the
habitat that sustains them the best. And pandas Actually they're
obligate bamboo eaters. If they don't eat bamboo they'll get sick.
So they're very heavily dependent upon having the appropriate habitat.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
Now, originally pandas, which were maybe a couple million years old,
we think they used to have a meat diet, as
I understand they were carnivores, but then maybe five hundred
thousand years ago they became herbivores. So I don't know
if that's easy to deal with your stomach. But because
they only eat vegetables or non meat, do they have
enough nutrition to get through the day.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
A lot of people don't realize this pandas are. They're
taxonomically their carnivores, and they are bears. They are true bears,
and they have evolved to take advantage of a more
plentiful resource. They don't have to chase down their food.
It pretty much just grows up around them as they
fit there. So they've evolved special adaptations to be able
to consume bamboo as quickly as possible. But what it
(06:47):
lacks in quality, they make up for in quantity. So
the pandas here at the National Zoo, we feed each
panda one hundred pounds of freshly cut bamboo every single day.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
And if you eat one hundred pounds of food, which
is bamboo every day, one hundred pounds a day. Doesn't
that take a lot of energy? And does that mean
that they sleep a lot? Because they use up a
lot of energy.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
Eating they do, they're digesting, so they spend their times.
I feel like a panda's life is eating, sleeping, and playing.
So I also think we love pandas because they're living
like our best lives. And so it's so fun to
watch them because sometimes you'll see a panda just, you know,
bowing through bamboo leaves and they'll actually stop for a second,
and you think it almost looks like they're taking a
(07:29):
little mini naps. They digest their bamboo before they just
keep eating more.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
Now when they pick up the bamboo, and you grow
your own bamboo, right, you don't bring it in from China.
You grow it somewhere in the National Zoo Area.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
We actually grow. So we have the facility in Virginia
thirty two hundred acres. We do a lot of our
research there. All of our labs are there for all
of the conservation and science work that we do, but
we also grow. We grow all of our own hey,
our own alfalfa, and our bamboo as well.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
Now panda bear has like we have fingers, Panda bear
seems to have like a six finger help them pick
up the bamboo. Is that an evolutionary trick or something
to help them pick up bamboo.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
It's not really a thumb. It's a modified wristbone that
actually almost it's a flexible wristbone that functions almost like
a thumb as they hold Think about as they hold
on to bamboo, because bamboo's circular, so if you watch them,
it looks like they're holding on and it's part of
that evolution from being instead of investing in being a
better predator right and being able to chase down their meat,
(08:28):
they invested evolutionarily and being the best bamboo eater you
can imagine.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
Now, there's a problem that pandas have in that there's
so few of them. It was for a long time
that panders were thought to be an endangered species. Now
they're called vulnerable. But how many pandas are there in
the entire world.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
So this is incredible because this is all due to
this panda program, and this is so important. So when
we started with giant pandas fifty years ago, there were
fewer than a thousand pandas in the world. Right, we're
talking in the wild and ze fewer than a thousand
and decades later, there are close to two thousand pandas
(09:06):
in the wild. Now, actually you think a little over
eighteen hundred. There are over seven hundred pandas in breeding centers.
So as part of this program, we have tripled the
number of pandas on the planet.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
It's still a small number of pandas, it's.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
A small number. But what we're also doing, and this
is what I love about the Panda program. People come here,
they see the pandas, they're cute, it's great. But when
they contribute, when they buy a stuffed panda or a
T shirt or something, they are actually funding our conservation efforts.
So not only are we breeding pandas, not only are
we learning more about giant pandas, but we're saving their
(09:40):
habitat in the wild. So when this started, there were
probably just ten about ten small little reserves where pandas
could live. There are panda reserves in China three times
the size of Yellowstone. So because of this program, there
are more pandas on the planet, more quality panda habitat
(10:02):
in the wild, and pandas have gone from being endangered
to being vulnerable.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
Now. One of the problems that pandas have and the
reason they're so few, is that their ability to reproduce
is the most limited, it seems, are the most challenging
in the entire animal world. So I think the female
panda can reproduce only a short period of time, maybe
one day a year or something like that. So the
male has to show up at the right time, right,
and how does that work?
Speaker 2 (10:25):
Well, it's actually really interesting. So the males. The female
has a very narrow window where she's reproductively viable, but
the males go through something called rut, so it's much longer.
So basically for months that could overlap multiple females estrus.
The males are basically they're looking for a mate, so
(10:46):
they are they're scent marking, they're patrolling, they're covering a
large territory. And what they're really doing is they're both
looking for a mate and they're advertising to females that
they would be a great father to their cubs.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
So many VIPs I soon call you up and say
I'd like to come bring my grandchildren, my children. I
want to come myself to see pantas. You get a
lot of that.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
So there are a lot of people who want to
see giant pandas. And the thing I love the most
is we are part of the Smithsonian and so everyone,
no matter how VIP you are, you can come here.
You can see giant pandas for free.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
Let me ask you how one becomes the head of
the National Zoo. Let's talk about your background.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
So where did you grow up in Indiana, Pennsylvania. It's
in western Pennsylvania, small town we had. I had a
rural delivery address and most of my relatives are coal miners.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
So when you were growing up and you're a little girl,
did you play with dolls or do you play with pandas?
Speaker 2 (11:41):
I didn't have pandas, so stuffed animals, and you know,
our neighbors had cows, so I'd always go over and
you know, you know, feed the cows, and you know,
see my friends who worked at who lived on farms.
Speaker 1 (11:53):
So you told your parents you want to be a
National Zoo director? How did you let your parents know
that you wanted to be are you? Are you trained
as a zoologist?
Speaker 2 (12:01):
So I actually I was a young girl interested in science,
you know, in the middle of nowhere in Pennsylvania, and
I thought that if you wanted to be a scientist,
that meant you were a doctor. And I thought that
was my only career path. And I actually got it.
My undergraduate degree is in biology, and you know, I
(12:22):
thought about it and I thought, this isn't what I
want to do. I want to work with animals. So
I was about to start an internship with an ophthalmologist
and I called the Pittsburgh Zoo and I just said,
I want to do what you do. Tell me, how
did you get this job? And because this was, you know,
back in the day, the guy said, he said, actually,
I'm on my way to interview for a summer intern
(12:45):
and I'll interview you right now, and if you do well,
I'll hire you. And so I got the job and
I went home and I told my mother that instead
of doing an internship with a doctor, I was going
to intern as a zoo keeper. And well, we were
driving at the time, so one is, she almost drove
(13:05):
the car off the road, but the other it was
the first time I ever heard my mother swear, and
she said, she's like, at least do something respectable with
your life. Be a lawyer.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
Okay, so you get this internship and you obviously must
have liked it. So then what happened?
Speaker 2 (13:19):
I always tell people I never made a smart career
choice in my life, so I always just kind of
followed my heart, and I did the internship at the zoo.
The thing I love about zoos is not just that
they educate and inspire people, but they are unique conservation organizations.
There are species that exist on the planet today because
of zoos, because we care for animals and can breathe them.
(13:41):
Blackfooted ferret, Panamaanian golden frog, simitar horned rigx, California conders.
The list goes on. And so I was really fascinated
with the idea of genetically managing how we manage these
species genetically so that they're saved for the wild. I
got a master's degree in zoology that focused on genetic management.
Then I got a job in another zoo, I did
(14:03):
more internships, I got my PhD, and eventually I ended
up here.
Speaker 1 (14:06):
All right, so you've got your PhD in zoology.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
It's a program at University of Maryland. It's called behavior, Ecology,
Evolution and Systematics.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
So and then you get a job immediately there after
at the National Zoo.
Speaker 2 (14:17):
Well, actually I had a job. I was the head
of conservation and science for an organization called the Association
of Zoos and Aquariums. So we set kind of conservation
goals for zoos, accredited zoos across the country. It's an office,
it's an association, and I just really missed. I missed
being in a zoo. I missed the animals. We create
magic for people on a daily basis, and I missed
(14:38):
being part of that.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
So how many zoos are there in the United States?
Speaker 2 (14:41):
So there are about twenty five hundred licensed animal exhibitors
in the United States, But then there's also an accrediting
program by the Association of Zoos and Aquariums, and I
think under two hundred and fifty zoos are accredited, So
less than ten percent of zoos in the country are accredited,
and those are the best of the best.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
So the most famous in the United States were the biggest.
I would think leaving the National Zoo a side is
the San Diego Zoo Is that the biggest? Actually?
Speaker 2 (15:06):
So, I do think it's the most well known zoo.
A lot of people are very familiar with that zoo.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
Over the years the National Zoo is not the only
zoo in the United States that's had pandas, right, and
so I thought there were at one point four San Diego, Memphis, Atlanta,
and Washington. They still have.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
Them now as part of the loan program started at
roughly the same time, so a lot of the pandas
were kind of moving through in cohorts, and so a
lot of zoos in the past two or three years
their pandas were older and returned to China. And so
right now only the National Zoo and the San Diego
Zoo have giant pandas.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
So go back and finish up on your career. So
you're working at this association and you now say, I
really want to be with animals directly. So then did
you apply to the National Zoo.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
Yeah, there was an opening for a general curator. It
was more of a curator of mammals, and it was
also the curator of giant pandas. And so my story
actually came full circle because when I got the job
here and I was in charge of the giant pandas,
my mother was so proud.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
Did she come to visit the pandas? Ever?
Speaker 2 (16:08):
Oh right away?
Speaker 1 (16:10):
So all right, So then you were the head of
the mammal program, including that the pandas. When did you
become the head of the National Zoo itself the whole head?
Speaker 2 (16:18):
At first I was essentially curator of mammals and curator
of giant pandas, and then after a few years I
became the head of Animal Care, so I saw all
of the animals, the veterinarians, nutrition, wrecords, behavior, all of
the departments. And then eventually I became deputy director, and
then a few years later I became director.
Speaker 1 (16:38):
So if you walk around and did she the pandas,
did they recognize you?
Speaker 2 (16:43):
It is one of the saddest movements of my life.
When I was curator of giant pandas and I was
here all of the time, the pandas knew who I was.
They recognized me or at least my voice, and I
could call their name and they would show an interest.
But as director, I don't. I'm not with them every day.
I'm not the ringer food and love and happiness.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
So today, how many different species do you have at
the National Zoo?
Speaker 2 (17:05):
We have about three thousand animals from about three hundred
different species.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
And how many professionals do you have working here.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
At both locations. We've got about four hundred people.
Speaker 1 (17:17):
And how many people come a year to the National Zoo.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
So just under two million people come every year. And
we actually we only had one year without Giant Pandas,
and what we noticed was that our attendants actually dropped
twenty percent when Giant pandas weren't here.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
What did you do when COVID came? Nobody showed up?
Speaker 2 (17:37):
Then, right, we didn't have any visitors, but we had
to keep working. So if we're responsible for the living collection,
I'll actually never forget that moment because the world is
closing down because of COVID. And our team gathered in
our line in Tiger Building and the offices there have
this kind of bunker like feel, and we were there
and we said, okay, what do we do? And everyone's concern.
(17:58):
The concern wasn't I can't go home. The concern was
what happens if I get sick and I can't take
care of my animals? And so we had animal care.
We had a team and b team that didn't cross,
so we could always have someone who could be there
to take care of the animals.
Speaker 1 (18:14):
Now does a China say if you have two pandas
that they've rented to you, and there's a baby panda
that they owned the baby panda, or do you own
the baby panda?
Speaker 2 (18:23):
So they own all pandas. But this is a good
thing because the majority of pandas live in China. And
so again we're not producing pandas just because we went
to although it's wonderful. These pandas are all part of
a conservation program. So if a cub was here and
it grew up here, it can't breed with its parents,
(18:43):
and so the cub returns to China so that it
can be part of the breeding program.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
When a baby is let's say, has some fur and
can see and hear, a human can pick that baby up, right,
I mean, let's say in a zoo or a control setting,
you're allowed to pick up a panda a small a size.
But is that right?
Speaker 2 (19:02):
We do wellness checks on the cubs soon after they're born,
so we do actually get hands on our giant pandas
just to make sure they're doing fine and they're healthy
and everything's okay.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
After a panda is what size? Is it not possible
for a zoo keeper to actually be in the cage
alone with them because they're bears and it could be dangerous.
Speaker 2 (19:20):
So it's actually usually when they're about a year old,
they hit about one hundred pounds, and that's the time
when they start to get they're not predators. They're not
going to see you as food, right, they don't see
you as a threat. But even if they just do right,
they've got strong jaws. They've got sharp claws, so an
animal could inadvertently hurt you even without trying.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
It probably went into a panda, you know place right now,
like here where the pandas are, and there they is
now weigh three hundred pounds. Would that be dangerous And it.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
Would be and not because again they're not predators, so
they wouldn't see you as food. It wouldn't look like
a tasty treat if you walked in, but they would think.
They could think that you're a toy. They could think
that we're something that we gave to them just to
play with their jaws. Their bite force actually equals that
of a lion or tiger. So if they wanted to
(20:13):
play with you, they've got the claws, they got the teeth,
they got the strength. They could do some damage.
Speaker 1 (20:17):
So let's talk about the pandacam for a moment. You
have a camera that watches pandas twenty four hours a day.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
I think people really enjoy watching the pandacam because they're
seeing them how we watch them. We decided we're going
to do something a little bit different this year because
it's not just people in the United States, but people
around the world are watching the pandacam. We want to
do it during the daytime, you know, during the twelve
hours during the day when people are when you know,
(20:45):
the pandas are awake, when keepers are interacting with them.
So what we're going to do is we'll have twelve
hours with the giant pandas and then replay at twelve
hours for the people on the other side of the
world who want to see giant pandas.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
Have you thought about selling advertising on your pandacam.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
We are Smithsonians Nationals Zoo, and so we receive about
sixty percent of our funding from the federal government, and
as such, we want to make sure that we are
open and available to every single person who wants to
see tiant pandas and not necessarily be assailed by by ads.
Speaker 1 (21:15):
So sixty percent of your funding comes from the federal government.
The other forty percent just falls out of the sky.
Where does that come from?
Speaker 2 (21:21):
Well, we're really fortunate, you know, we were talking about
the pandacam and so Boeing sponsors our pandacams their corporations
to help splonster us. We have some incredibly generous donors
who support us through philanthropy, and we also generate revenue.
And so when people come here, they come to the zoo,
and they come here for free because we're Smithsonian. But
(21:42):
when they buy a stuffed panda or a T shirt,
or they eat, you know, a hamburger or a hot dog here,
that money goes to support the zoo in all of
our conservation work.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
So if somebody wants to know something about the National Zoo,
and you've got two or three sentences, you can give them.
What is a summary of at the National Zoo, Why
is it so great? And why should somebody visit the
National Zoo.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
National Zoo is part of Smithsonian. We are free, we
are open and welcome to everyone. And when you come here,
you are not just seeing the animals, You are not
just having an incredible time that will stay with you
and your family, through the rest of your lives. You
are part of our conservation success.
Speaker 1 (22:23):
Thanks for listening to hear more of my interviews. You
can subscribe and download my podcast on Spotify, Apple, or
wherever you listen.
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