March 13, 2025 • 22 mins
Bank of America Chairman & CEO Brian Moynihan says over-regulation of lenders is the main driver of customers being shut out of the US banking system and not political bias, “We bank everybody. The real question was about over-regulation frankly,” he said in an interview on "The David Rubenstein Show: Peer to Peer Conversations." This as President Trump publicly rebuked Moynihan at the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland, accusing the bank of limiting business with certain clients. Moynihan also talked about his inflation expectations, working with the current administration and the company being a bank of opportunity. This interview was recorded February 25 at the Economic Club of Washington, DC.
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
One of the largest and most respective banks in the
world is Bank of America. For the past fifteen years,
it's been led by its CEO, Brian and Mornihan. I
had a chance to sit down with him recently to
talk about the new environment in Washington, lower interest rates
and the impact on the banking community and.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Davos, you were asking.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
A question of President Trump and he didn't quite answer
the question that he asked you a question. So the
question he asked you was something like, why are you
not banking certain groups? What is the answer? I don't
think he gave you a chance to really answer that question.
But what is the answer to that question?
Speaker 3 (00:40):
Well, first off, the Bank of America has seventy million
consumer customers and millions of small businesses all over the country,
all over the world, and so we bank everybody. But
the real question was about over regulation, frankly, and so
as you look at what's happened is because the interpretations
aml any money laundering BSA, Bank Secrecy Act KYC, Know
(01:04):
your customer, know your customer's customer. You know, there's a
lot of burden upon the banking system to both report
suspicious activity reports and do a lot of analysis, and
we have to close accounts, so we can't tell people
why we did it, and often we're told by authorities
of close accounts.
Speaker 4 (01:21):
That creates confusion.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
Another area comes up in this discussions in a crypto area,
where the regulator said you can't bank crypto operating companies,
employees of crypto companies, et cetera. We bank everybody. So
at the end of the day, it's about getting these
regulations right now. I think it opens a dialogue about
how to get these regulations correct.
Speaker 4 (01:37):
And the end of the day, we were open for everybody.
Speaker 3 (01:40):
We serve millions and millions of Americans trallions and transactions
a year.
Speaker 4 (01:44):
And we continue to do so.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
Okay, So when this administration was elected, there was a
lot of i would say jubilation in the streets the
banking where all the people thought that the banking regulation
had been too tough under President Biden, and some people
thought that regulation be more amenable to banks. Has that
turned out to be the case, shed or is it
still too early to know and is the Banking Committee
(02:07):
happy with the direction that the current administration is going
or you just don't know yet.
Speaker 3 (02:11):
If you think about the Great Financial Crisis, and Dodd
Frank and a lot of capital rules and quity rules
and all that stafe came in. There was a reason
for the world ri at large to be really not happy
with banks and non banks that became banks, Golden Sacks, Morgan, Stanley, Maryland,
et cetera. So you could understand that when you go
fast forward through the fifteen years hence plus, you go
(02:31):
through the pandemic and the banking system stands up and
stabilizes the economy.
Speaker 4 (02:35):
You go through the.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
Regional banking crisis, the banking system steps up and stabilize it,
and they keep adding capital and liquidier, sort of saying,
wait a second, we are a source of strength. And
by the way, the Berican bank industry is really a
source of strength. So the Penland kept just swinging, even
though the reason why it had swung had stopped, and
so our industry was say, wait a second, why are
we have twenty percent more capital we did during the pandemic.
(02:59):
The risk is the same, it's just by mathematical creep
of calculations.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
So many people when they talk about the Federal Reserve,
they wonder whether the Fed are going to increase interest
rates or decrease interest rates. But in the banking community,
you're often worried about the stress tests. And do you
think the FED has pushed stress tests to two tough
a limit on banks? Are you okay with the current
stress tests?
Speaker 3 (03:21):
It's so the stress tests are publicly available were I
think the first one was twenty ten and then picked
up an earnest eleven or twelve, and so every year
you can see this report card in the bank industry's health,
and every year the bank industry has great health.
Speaker 4 (03:36):
The rules kept changing.
Speaker 3 (03:37):
The test, so you if you think of the last
four or five years, you had volatility and capital requirements
that were you went from fifty to seventy five basis
points up and down a year with basically tests said
ten percent employment, fifty downturn in the equity markets, thirty
percent drop in housing, thirty to forty percent drop in
commercial real estate, highield spreads blown out by a thousand,
(04:01):
two thousand basis points, whatever it was. You look at
all it the same test produced as different results. It
didn't make sense. So behind the scenes, the transparency wasn't there,
and that's what we end up suing them on. So
the stress tests are a very good thing. Frankly gives
a state of health for thirty one banks, which cover
most the industry. The way the United States run was
far superior. We do stress tests every quarter, multiple scenarios,
(04:22):
and our trading book.
Speaker 4 (04:24):
Is stressed every day.
Speaker 3 (04:25):
So if you think about it's a good thing, it's
just that behind the scenes, what was happening is that
dials are being turned on us and the numbers were
becoming irrational to the market, and we have investors and
we have to raise capital and have capital available for
the industry.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
So there was somebody there's a vice chairman of the
Federal Reserve who's in charge of regulating the banks and
so forth. That person has given up that position recently,
and was that something in the banking community was happy
with that he stepped aside or you didn't really care
whether he stepped aside or not.
Speaker 3 (04:54):
Well, the ind of the day is, I think he
had a year left on his term, and the new
administrative president would point someone for that BASI.
Speaker 4 (05:01):
We'll get it today.
Speaker 3 (05:03):
As when people always ask me, do you have different
approaches for different administrations, and you say, well, in the
long term, we've been around since Washington as president. So
if we geared ourselves up for this president, not that presdent.
Speaker 4 (05:15):
We'd have to change forty five times whatever it is.
Speaker 3 (05:18):
And if you think even in the foreign soil, think
how many different prime ministers there's been in.
Speaker 4 (05:21):
England or so even in my tenure CEO.
Speaker 3 (05:25):
So the end of the day, you run the company
the right way, and what we're trying to say is
get us to rational.
Speaker 4 (05:28):
Gatory structure that and have it stick to the ribs.
Speaker 3 (05:33):
If you keep swinging like this, our clients can't be
as it can't depend on us when adias.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
So recently, another banker you probably heard of, Jamie Diamond,
and he testified on Capitol Hill that maybe the regulators
and Congress should get together and say, let's just start
afresh and take a look at all the banking regulations
from a fresh perspective, building from scratch.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
Do you have a comment on that. Is that a
good idea?
Speaker 4 (05:59):
Or just take Consumer Bureau.
Speaker 3 (06:01):
In twenty ten with Dot Frank ten or eleven, they
set up the Consumer Bureau. The theory was that all
the consumer regulatory activity would move to a new agency.
Guess what we still have the occ regulars consumer activity
start of the federal regulars consumer activity stud the FTC
will hit consumer activity on occasion, and you have the
Consumer Bureau.
Speaker 4 (06:19):
And if you have the FDIC as regular you have
the FDIC.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
You're regulated by the Federal Reserve. The FDIC the comptrol
of the currency. So do you spend a lot of
time with the regulators or you try to avoid that.
Speaker 3 (06:32):
I'd like to spend time when they're telling us we're
doing good stuff. We all spend a lot of time
on I have great chief risk officer and Jeff green
Or who organized that for the company. All my senior
executives spend time with them and look the day to
day regulators are help trying to help us be better.
And we understand that we are on the road to
perfection as a company. And as vincelent Party said, you
strive for perfection next since we found that's what we're
(06:53):
trying to do. If they've got ideas for all ears,
simplifying the organization will allow frankly, cost to be taken
out from the regatory side, and we pay fees to
support it.
Speaker 4 (07:04):
Uh And it wouldn't be the worst idea.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
Now, when interest rates go up, the theory is that
banks can charge more for loans and therefore their more profitable.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
And banks have been very profitable in recent years.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
When interest rates go down, is that a concern to
banks because you have less profitability or you really don't care?
Speaker 3 (07:21):
Well, The toughest time to be a bank with a
trillion two trillion dollars deposits is when interest rates are
zero because we have we can't charge people.
Speaker 4 (07:33):
To store their money.
Speaker 3 (07:35):
It's it's we're not like a self storage unit or
something like that. So at the end the day, you
have a floor on interest rates. And so when interest
rates came down, you started squeezing margins, so the loan
rates came down, But the deposit rates have a zero floor.
Speaker 4 (07:47):
When rates move up.
Speaker 3 (07:49):
That changes and so the zero interest checking accounts all
and stuff become worth more, and the loan rates go.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
Up because interest rates come down. Though you're not it's
not going to affect.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
Your profitability, not not a lot, because you have right
So you don't want Jaypale's job. It sounds like, but
suppose he called you and said, should I increase interest rates?
Speaker 2 (08:07):
Decrease? Interest rates are holding the same? What would your
advice be?
Speaker 3 (08:10):
Our team right now is basically says it would be
no further rate cuts through their forecast period, which is
this year next year. Inflation is coming down, but is
a bigger fight. An there's the dual mandate, employment, inflation, employment.
They're in great shape on inflation. It's been coming down,
it's working some way down. It takes multiple years of
(08:31):
squeeze inflation out and there's a drag on economy today.
And so you're seeing economic growth from three percent in
the last couple of quarters to two percent. We haven't
moved down to two percent our expectations.
Speaker 4 (08:42):
They won't cut rates.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
So let me ask you. The business that my firm
has been in is private equity. But now private equity
firms have become private credit firms as well. And private
credit firms they lend money, but they're not regulated quite
the way you are. So is that a source of
concern that we can lend money and we're not as
highly regulated as you are, And you're lending money but
you're highly regulated.
Speaker 4 (09:03):
You know, I think I care about your firm.
Speaker 3 (09:07):
But look in a day, the private capital has grown
because they can do something we can't.
Speaker 4 (09:18):
Along a couple dimensions.
Speaker 3 (09:19):
One is they can finance companies that may have more leverage,
and we are basically stopped out at six times leverage.
And that used to be a rule, then it was
taken back then it was a guidance, and then it
was like wait till we examine you so and we
do go above it for certain credits and stuff like that.
Speaker 4 (09:36):
So that's one thing.
Speaker 3 (09:37):
The second thing is the ability to bring the whole
capital structure, debt, equity, the mezzanine, whole nine yards. That's
hard for a bank because we don't engage.
Speaker 4 (09:45):
In the equity business.
Speaker 3 (09:45):
But on top of that, you know, we have a
trillion dollars a commercial loan commitments, a half a billion
plus of drawing loans. We don't fear any competitor, and
we work with those companies, including yours, to generate assets
for them.
Speaker 4 (09:56):
But it's just a different style.
Speaker 3 (09:59):
I think the the world should be concerned to make
sure that those enterprises making loans to you know, billion
dollar operating company, have the ability to work with him
times of stress. That that's going to be a interest question.
We haven't gone through a stress period with this practice
out there.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
Let's talk about in your background, I am an only child.
You have how many siblings?
Speaker 4 (10:19):
Seven?
Speaker 1 (10:19):
Seven, so you know, growing up with eight people in
a family, wasn't that crowd at a time.
Speaker 3 (10:26):
So I was set up to get my own bedroom
for the first time in my life from my younger
brother decided he wanted to move into the bedroom because
he was scared to sleep alone. Probably when I was
in college, his first time I ever had a bedroom
to myself.
Speaker 4 (10:38):
So, yes, it was grod.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
What did your father do to support eight children? See
him private equity or something.
Speaker 4 (10:44):
That he was He was a research chemist for DuPont
and so he spent his whole life on plastics.
Speaker 3 (10:54):
So the graduate, you know, plastics young man, my dad
was at So that's.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
What he grew up in Ohio.
Speaker 1 (10:59):
And then you went to college in the East Coast
and at Brown. Yes, and you were the co captain
of the rugby team.
Speaker 4 (11:06):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
And do you still play rugby or not so much?
Speaker 3 (11:09):
I played rugby at Brown, I played rugby at law school,
and I played rugby after. It's a great sport. It is,
in a way the most intense. It looks like this
organization out there is extreme, ill organized, but it's unique
in that it's.
Speaker 4 (11:21):
Physical and tackling, you kick, you run.
Speaker 3 (11:24):
Everybody gets to handle the ball and you run for
eighty minutes, and so it's a very demanding game.
Speaker 4 (11:29):
It was a lot of fun.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
So now you are the chancellor of Brown University, which
means the chairman of the board essentially.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
So how do you have time for that?
Speaker 3 (11:39):
I've been on the board for fifteen years and at
the end of the day, the chair of the board,
Chris Packson runs university, doesn't spect calcular job.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
After you graduated from Brown, you went to law schoo
at Notre Dame, Yes, sir. Then you went to practice
law back in Rhode Island. You're from Ohio. You went
to Notre Dame and the Midwest. Why did you go
back to Rhode Island?
Speaker 3 (11:57):
Well, none of the Boston law firms would hire a
person from Notre Dame in law school, so I had.
So I ended up in a great law firm and
had a great short.
Speaker 4 (12:05):
Legal career there.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
How did you escape from being a corporate lawyer? What
did you do?
Speaker 3 (12:09):
One of my mentors is named Terry Murray, who ran
Fleet and I was.
Speaker 4 (12:12):
I did corporate law.
Speaker 3 (12:14):
A lot of work I did for Fleet and then
Terry after we did a transaction called the bank Canoeing,
a transaction with KKR put money into the bank industry,
and we bought the Banknoeing and I mean you. Fleet
bought the Banknoeing And from the federal government in the
early nineties.
Speaker 4 (12:29):
After the real estate crisis.
Speaker 3 (12:32):
I'd structured that deal in a way that I'd structured
private equity eels for our bank private equity firm, which
was a thing called dual convertible per hered stock. It
converted into parent company stock or bank stock. Never been
done in the public array. Terry said to the General Council,
he's too smart to be a lawyer, which I never
figured out what the General Council thought about. He was
a brilliant guy, and he said, get him in here
(12:52):
and we'll figure out if he's gonna do something.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
Work at Fleet, which is headquartered in Rhode Island.
Speaker 3 (12:56):
I just went to work for Fleet, and I was
deputy general counsel for like three months, and I went
a special project to re engineer the company and came.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
And Fleet ultimately merged with Bank Boston.
Speaker 3 (13:05):
That was the last deal I did is I was
a head of M and A and strategy, and Terry
Murray and Chad Gifford put together that deal. Chad ultimately
took a liking to me as a great mentor and said,
you got to run a business, and put me in
running a business. And we were merging two companies together.
And I survived and ran the wealth management business for.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
If we ran the wealth manager business for the combined
Bank Boston Fleet, and then Bank Boston Fleet combined company
was sold to Bank of America.
Speaker 2 (13:33):
But then you became the general counsel.
Speaker 4 (13:35):
For forty days for.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
How long?
Speaker 4 (13:38):
Forty days and forty nights.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
All right, So we became the general counsel of the
combined Bank of America.
Speaker 3 (13:44):
Yeah, and then well then, so what happened was in
December of two thousand and eight, Remember we bought Marylyn
the Lehman Weekend and everything. So we were originally trying
to buy it Lehman. We said we couldn't do it
as a company. I was running that point the corporate
Investment Bank and other parts of Bank of America.
Speaker 4 (14:04):
We couldn't do that.
Speaker 3 (14:05):
And then over the weekend that's when the world became
very ugly, and so we bought Merrill. And then around
the time Merrill showed up without with a seven billion
dollar loss in the quarter, and with a lot less
capitainer's supposed to have, we started telling the government we
couldn't do the deal and stuff, and so Ken asked
me to be a general counsel because we were limiting
(14:27):
a lot of jobs, and I actually eliminated my job
and I was basically out of the company. Said you
know what, stay and become general counsel because we need somebody.
Speaker 4 (14:35):
And from December ninth to.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
Came the general counsel the Combined Bank of America.
Speaker 3 (14:39):
As we as we negotiate with the government to figure
out how to get the Meryl deal done.
Speaker 4 (14:43):
And then I went back in business right after.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
But then you left after that for a while.
Speaker 3 (14:47):
So then in early mid January of nine I took
over a bunch of the businesses after John Thane left
and went back into business.
Speaker 4 (14:55):
And then by the end of a nine MCU.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
Let's talk about the beginning of Bank of America. So
Bank America started as Bank of Italy. So who started
Bank of America and why did you name it after
Italy as opposed to America.
Speaker 3 (15:07):
Well, apg And who was Italian descent, started the Bank
of Italy when he came to the country in San
Francisco to help the local the Italian community that emigrated
to San Francisco, and he became famous in the San
Francisco earthquakes and fires in the early nineteen hundreds by
setting up a barrel and starting lend money. And then
(15:28):
fast forward to nineteen ninety nine when Nations Bank, which
was the North Carolina Bank which is the bank the
bank today, and the Bank of America merged. You had
two good names.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
Now on the personal side, you've been there fifteen years.
You haven't announced any time, and you might step back
and you're not prepared to announce that today, right, No,
I don't, so I'll tell you first, Okay, So have
you been able to convince your children to go in
the banking world.
Speaker 3 (15:58):
My oldest son's and investment b anchor for a different firm. Obviously,
in my uh, my middle child is a risk manager
for another for in financial services, and my youngers and
communications and other stuff. But they look, being a CEO's
child is not the easiest thing being a CEO's spouse.
Speaker 4 (16:15):
And they saw me work in different ways across the years.
Speaker 3 (16:19):
And ye, so it's their decision with their careers and
and it's it's nice.
Speaker 4 (16:24):
My son, he's a deal doer, he's an m and
a type of guy. So it's it's fun. Because I
used to do that, I haven't done that long time.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
So let's say ask i't ask you about this banking today.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
Why do we need all these bank facilities, bank branches, buildings,
financial centers because everything is done online, it seems do
you actually have a lot of buildings? You really need
all those buildings you have where you have your bank.
Speaker 3 (16:47):
This is this is the classic do as I do,
not as I say, Because in the day between this
morning when the banks open up to tomorrow morning, four
hundred thousand people come into a branch. So this idea
nobody goes to bank branch just is not true. The
idea nobody uses cash. We'll have about a quarter billion
dollars and we'll go out of our ATM machines in
(17:08):
the next twenty four hours, the idea, but nobody writes checks.
Speaker 4 (17:12):
There were one hundred millions.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
How many How many banks do you have around the
country an hour?
Speaker 4 (17:16):
You have three thy seven hundred.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
What about ATMs? You have a lot of them, We.
Speaker 4 (17:19):
Have about fourteen thousand of them.
Speaker 3 (17:21):
At the high point, you had eighteen thousand, and that's technology.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
How has the world of technology affected the banking world?
So right now so called fintech. Has fintech dramatically changed
the way Bank of America operates.
Speaker 3 (17:34):
It's so we invest about four billion dollars in new
code every year. Every weekend, we'll have a couple million
lines of code go in to amend our systems and
change our systems or add new technology that's not to
run the systems. That's another eight or nine billion dollars
that is just new activity.
Speaker 4 (17:53):
So the impacts have been unbelievable.
Speaker 3 (17:54):
So in the mid nineties, when I was the head
of strategy to the company, I remember, you know, consultants
coming in saying twenty years will be no bank branches.
Well it's thirty years and guess what we still have
thirty seven hundred. And the reality is people wanted all
the ways.
Speaker 4 (18:07):
So but the.
Speaker 3 (18:07):
Impact of the phone iPhone in particular was so different,
and we were the first app available on the iPhone.
You now have forty million consumers who bank digitally with
us all the time.
Speaker 4 (18:21):
Last year we had about you know, about ninety.
Speaker 3 (18:26):
Plus percent of our interactions with consumers are digital.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
So if I want to go to using ATM and
I have a Bank of America ATM CAR, but I
don't see any Bank of America ATMs. I go to
some other bank ATM, I pay a fee.
Speaker 3 (18:40):
Is that you wouldn't, David, Because you're right, you wouldn't
that other people might.
Speaker 1 (18:45):
I thought that to pay a fee pray fee? I mean,
is that a profit center for banks? Those fees are?
Speaker 3 (18:51):
You know, at the end of the day, we get
fifty five percent of our revenue or one hundred million
dollars of revenue last year, fifty five percent came from
interest five percent fees. The dominant part of those fees
are trading revenue and asset management fees and things like that.
We have consumer fees, but they've come down dramatically because
(19:11):
basically you said that the consumers, you keep changing your behavior,
We keep driving on the cost to serve, and we'll
give that back by low and lower fee structure.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
And do you think we will have in our collective
lifetime no more currency, Everything will be digital or you
think that's.
Speaker 4 (19:26):
Not likely, not in our lifetime?
Speaker 2 (19:28):
What about a.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
Digital currency which doesn't preclude other things, but a digital currency.
Speaker 3 (19:33):
It's pretty clear there's going to be a stable coin,
which is going to be a full of dollar backed
type of thing, which is no different than a money
market fund, a check access is no different than a
bank account really, and so if they if they make
that legal, we'll go into that business. So you'll have
a be a Bank of America coin a and a
US dollar deposit, and we'll be able to move them
(19:53):
back and forth, because now it hasn't been legal for
us to do it, but it's just then like another
foreign currency. The question of it's useful for it's going
to be interesting.
Speaker 1 (20:01):
So if I wanted to buy and make an investment
in a bank stock, would you say it's a good
idea to invest in bank stocks?
Speaker 3 (20:09):
Now our valuation difference to the SMP is lower than
it's been, and I think our company is a great
value and US the banks are pretty good value.
Speaker 4 (20:18):
Hey.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
So now there's an acronym today that some people in
Washington don't like, called DEI.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
Do you have a DEI policy or not? Anymore?
Speaker 3 (20:30):
We've always been as a bank of opportunity, So we
think about creating an opportunity for our teammates, and.
Speaker 4 (20:36):
How do we do that. We go out and.
Speaker 3 (20:38):
Hire from all areas and bring people into our companies.
Speaker 4 (20:42):
So we go to four hundred different schools to recruit kids.
We go. We have a path program we called Pathways.
Speaker 3 (20:48):
So Pathways we announced in twenty eighteen we said we'd
hire ten thousand people from low and modern income neighborhoods
to come work in our company. So once we have
a very diverse company in terms of representation from all
economic status, all races as, once they get in, the
opportunity is.
Speaker 4 (21:02):
There of a lifetime.
Speaker 3 (21:04):
We equal pay for equal work, the ability to promote,
and so the idea is just great opportunity. So we
have a diverse team. We stress inclusion, so when you're
at our company, you can be who you want to
be and be successful. Including we have three hundred thousand
memberships in our employee resource groups, of which about sixty
percent of people are in one.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
A young professional, young person's graduate in college. Why should
they go into the banking profession as opposed to private
equity investment, banking, healthcare?
Speaker 2 (21:33):
What's the appeal of working in a bank?
Speaker 3 (21:35):
Well, when we bring the two thousand kids in and
I talked to them, I always say the same thing,
you can make a lot of money doing a lot
of things. You can have a great career, do a
lot of things, but if you're going to come to
our company, you really want to help people.
Speaker 4 (21:50):
Our market position is what would you like the power
to do?
Speaker 3 (21:53):
And I said, your job at this company is to
help people answer that question, whether it's a customer, whether
it's a teammate, whether it's a shareholder, whether it's a community, And.
Speaker 4 (22:02):
You've got to come and want to do that.
Speaker 3 (22:04):
You want to deliver a lot of profits done the
right way, with the purpose around it.
Speaker 1 (22:11):
Thanks for listening to hear more of my interviews. You
can subscribe and download my podcast on Spotify, Apple, or
wherever you listen.
One of the largest and most respective banks in the
world is Bank of America. For the past fifteen years,
it's been led by its CEO, Brian and Mornihan. I
had a chance to sit down with him recently to
talk about the new environment in Washington, lower interest rates
and the impact on the banking community and.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Davos, you were asking.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
A question of President Trump and he didn't quite answer
the question that he asked you a question. So the
question he asked you was something like, why are you
not banking certain groups? What is the answer? I don't
think he gave you a chance to really answer that question.
But what is the answer to that question?
Speaker 3 (00:40):
Well, first off, the Bank of America has seventy million
consumer customers and millions of small businesses all over the country,
all over the world, and so we bank everybody. But
the real question was about over regulation, frankly, and so
as you look at what's happened is because the interpretations
aml any money laundering BSA, Bank Secrecy Act KYC, Know
(01:04):
your customer, know your customer's customer. You know, there's a
lot of burden upon the banking system to both report
suspicious activity reports and do a lot of analysis, and
we have to close accounts, so we can't tell people
why we did it, and often we're told by authorities
of close accounts.
Speaker 4 (01:21):
That creates confusion.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
Another area comes up in this discussions in a crypto area,
where the regulator said you can't bank crypto operating companies,
employees of crypto companies, et cetera. We bank everybody. So
at the end of the day, it's about getting these
regulations right now. I think it opens a dialogue about
how to get these regulations correct.
Speaker 4 (01:37):
And the end of the day, we were open for everybody.
Speaker 3 (01:40):
We serve millions and millions of Americans trallions and transactions
a year.
Speaker 4 (01:44):
And we continue to do so.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
Okay, So when this administration was elected, there was a
lot of i would say jubilation in the streets the
banking where all the people thought that the banking regulation
had been too tough under President Biden, and some people
thought that regulation be more amenable to banks. Has that
turned out to be the case, shed or is it
still too early to know and is the Banking Committee
(02:07):
happy with the direction that the current administration is going
or you just don't know yet.
Speaker 3 (02:11):
If you think about the Great Financial Crisis, and Dodd
Frank and a lot of capital rules and quity rules
and all that stafe came in. There was a reason
for the world ri at large to be really not happy
with banks and non banks that became banks, Golden Sacks, Morgan, Stanley, Maryland,
et cetera. So you could understand that when you go
fast forward through the fifteen years hence plus, you go
(02:31):
through the pandemic and the banking system stands up and
stabilizes the economy.
Speaker 4 (02:35):
You go through the.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
Regional banking crisis, the banking system steps up and stabilize it,
and they keep adding capital and liquidier, sort of saying,
wait a second, we are a source of strength. And
by the way, the Berican bank industry is really a
source of strength. So the Penland kept just swinging, even
though the reason why it had swung had stopped, and
so our industry was say, wait a second, why are
we have twenty percent more capital we did during the pandemic.
(02:59):
The risk is the same, it's just by mathematical creep
of calculations.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
So many people when they talk about the Federal Reserve,
they wonder whether the Fed are going to increase interest
rates or decrease interest rates. But in the banking community,
you're often worried about the stress tests. And do you
think the FED has pushed stress tests to two tough
a limit on banks? Are you okay with the current
stress tests?
Speaker 3 (03:21):
It's so the stress tests are publicly available were I
think the first one was twenty ten and then picked
up an earnest eleven or twelve, and so every year
you can see this report card in the bank industry's health,
and every year the bank industry has great health.
Speaker 4 (03:36):
The rules kept changing.
Speaker 3 (03:37):
The test, so you if you think of the last
four or five years, you had volatility and capital requirements
that were you went from fifty to seventy five basis
points up and down a year with basically tests said
ten percent employment, fifty downturn in the equity markets, thirty
percent drop in housing, thirty to forty percent drop in
commercial real estate, highield spreads blown out by a thousand,
(04:01):
two thousand basis points, whatever it was. You look at
all it the same test produced as different results. It
didn't make sense. So behind the scenes, the transparency wasn't there,
and that's what we end up suing them on. So
the stress tests are a very good thing. Frankly gives
a state of health for thirty one banks, which cover
most the industry. The way the United States run was
far superior. We do stress tests every quarter, multiple scenarios,
(04:22):
and our trading book.
Speaker 4 (04:24):
Is stressed every day.
Speaker 3 (04:25):
So if you think about it's a good thing, it's
just that behind the scenes, what was happening is that
dials are being turned on us and the numbers were
becoming irrational to the market, and we have investors and
we have to raise capital and have capital available for
the industry.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
So there was somebody there's a vice chairman of the
Federal Reserve who's in charge of regulating the banks and
so forth. That person has given up that position recently,
and was that something in the banking community was happy
with that he stepped aside or you didn't really care
whether he stepped aside or not.
Speaker 3 (04:54):
Well, the ind of the day is, I think he
had a year left on his term, and the new
administrative president would point someone for that BASI.
Speaker 4 (05:01):
We'll get it today.
Speaker 3 (05:03):
As when people always ask me, do you have different
approaches for different administrations, and you say, well, in the
long term, we've been around since Washington as president. So
if we geared ourselves up for this president, not that presdent.
Speaker 4 (05:15):
We'd have to change forty five times whatever it is.
Speaker 3 (05:18):
And if you think even in the foreign soil, think
how many different prime ministers there's been in.
Speaker 4 (05:21):
England or so even in my tenure CEO.
Speaker 3 (05:25):
So the end of the day, you run the company
the right way, and what we're trying to say is
get us to rational.
Speaker 4 (05:28):
Gatory structure that and have it stick to the ribs.
Speaker 3 (05:33):
If you keep swinging like this, our clients can't be
as it can't depend on us when adias.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
So recently, another banker you probably heard of, Jamie Diamond,
and he testified on Capitol Hill that maybe the regulators
and Congress should get together and say, let's just start
afresh and take a look at all the banking regulations
from a fresh perspective, building from scratch.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
Do you have a comment on that. Is that a
good idea?
Speaker 4 (05:59):
Or just take Consumer Bureau.
Speaker 3 (06:01):
In twenty ten with Dot Frank ten or eleven, they
set up the Consumer Bureau. The theory was that all
the consumer regulatory activity would move to a new agency.
Guess what we still have the occ regulars consumer activity
start of the federal regulars consumer activity stud the FTC
will hit consumer activity on occasion, and you have the
Consumer Bureau.
Speaker 4 (06:19):
And if you have the FDIC as regular you have
the FDIC.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
You're regulated by the Federal Reserve. The FDIC the comptrol
of the currency. So do you spend a lot of
time with the regulators or you try to avoid that.
Speaker 3 (06:32):
I'd like to spend time when they're telling us we're
doing good stuff. We all spend a lot of time
on I have great chief risk officer and Jeff green
Or who organized that for the company. All my senior
executives spend time with them and look the day to
day regulators are help trying to help us be better.
And we understand that we are on the road to
perfection as a company. And as vincelent Party said, you
strive for perfection next since we found that's what we're
(06:53):
trying to do. If they've got ideas for all ears,
simplifying the organization will allow frankly, cost to be taken
out from the regatory side, and we pay fees to
support it.
Speaker 4 (07:04):
Uh And it wouldn't be the worst idea.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
Now, when interest rates go up, the theory is that
banks can charge more for loans and therefore their more profitable.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
And banks have been very profitable in recent years.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
When interest rates go down, is that a concern to
banks because you have less profitability or you really don't care?
Speaker 3 (07:21):
Well, The toughest time to be a bank with a
trillion two trillion dollars deposits is when interest rates are
zero because we have we can't charge people.
Speaker 4 (07:33):
To store their money.
Speaker 3 (07:35):
It's it's we're not like a self storage unit or
something like that. So at the end the day, you
have a floor on interest rates. And so when interest
rates came down, you started squeezing margins, so the loan
rates came down, But the deposit rates have a zero floor.
Speaker 4 (07:47):
When rates move up.
Speaker 3 (07:49):
That changes and so the zero interest checking accounts all
and stuff become worth more, and the loan rates go.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
Up because interest rates come down. Though you're not it's
not going to affect.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
Your profitability, not not a lot, because you have right
So you don't want Jaypale's job. It sounds like, but
suppose he called you and said, should I increase interest rates?
Speaker 2 (08:07):
Decrease? Interest rates are holding the same? What would your
advice be?
Speaker 3 (08:10):
Our team right now is basically says it would be
no further rate cuts through their forecast period, which is
this year next year. Inflation is coming down, but is
a bigger fight. An there's the dual mandate, employment, inflation, employment.
They're in great shape on inflation. It's been coming down,
it's working some way down. It takes multiple years of
(08:31):
squeeze inflation out and there's a drag on economy today.
And so you're seeing economic growth from three percent in
the last couple of quarters to two percent. We haven't
moved down to two percent our expectations.
Speaker 4 (08:42):
They won't cut rates.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
So let me ask you. The business that my firm
has been in is private equity. But now private equity
firms have become private credit firms as well. And private
credit firms they lend money, but they're not regulated quite
the way you are. So is that a source of
concern that we can lend money and we're not as
highly regulated as you are, And you're lending money but
you're highly regulated.
Speaker 4 (09:03):
You know, I think I care about your firm.
Speaker 3 (09:07):
But look in a day, the private capital has grown
because they can do something we can't.
Speaker 4 (09:18):
Along a couple dimensions.
Speaker 3 (09:19):
One is they can finance companies that may have more leverage,
and we are basically stopped out at six times leverage.
And that used to be a rule, then it was
taken back then it was a guidance, and then it
was like wait till we examine you so and we
do go above it for certain credits and stuff like that.
Speaker 4 (09:36):
So that's one thing.
Speaker 3 (09:37):
The second thing is the ability to bring the whole
capital structure, debt, equity, the mezzanine, whole nine yards. That's
hard for a bank because we don't engage.
Speaker 4 (09:45):
In the equity business.
Speaker 3 (09:45):
But on top of that, you know, we have a
trillion dollars a commercial loan commitments, a half a billion
plus of drawing loans. We don't fear any competitor, and
we work with those companies, including yours, to generate assets
for them.
Speaker 4 (09:56):
But it's just a different style.
Speaker 3 (09:59):
I think the the world should be concerned to make
sure that those enterprises making loans to you know, billion
dollar operating company, have the ability to work with him
times of stress. That that's going to be a interest question.
We haven't gone through a stress period with this practice
out there.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
Let's talk about in your background, I am an only child.
You have how many siblings?
Speaker 4 (10:19):
Seven?
Speaker 1 (10:19):
Seven, so you know, growing up with eight people in
a family, wasn't that crowd at a time.
Speaker 3 (10:26):
So I was set up to get my own bedroom
for the first time in my life from my younger
brother decided he wanted to move into the bedroom because
he was scared to sleep alone. Probably when I was
in college, his first time I ever had a bedroom
to myself.
Speaker 4 (10:38):
So, yes, it was grod.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
What did your father do to support eight children? See
him private equity or something.
Speaker 4 (10:44):
That he was He was a research chemist for DuPont
and so he spent his whole life on plastics.
Speaker 3 (10:54):
So the graduate, you know, plastics young man, my dad
was at So that's.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
What he grew up in Ohio.
Speaker 1 (10:59):
And then you went to college in the East Coast
and at Brown. Yes, and you were the co captain
of the rugby team.
Speaker 4 (11:06):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
And do you still play rugby or not so much?
Speaker 3 (11:09):
I played rugby at Brown, I played rugby at law school,
and I played rugby after. It's a great sport. It is,
in a way the most intense. It looks like this
organization out there is extreme, ill organized, but it's unique
in that it's.
Speaker 4 (11:21):
Physical and tackling, you kick, you run.
Speaker 3 (11:24):
Everybody gets to handle the ball and you run for
eighty minutes, and so it's a very demanding game.
Speaker 4 (11:29):
It was a lot of fun.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
So now you are the chancellor of Brown University, which
means the chairman of the board essentially.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
So how do you have time for that?
Speaker 3 (11:39):
I've been on the board for fifteen years and at
the end of the day, the chair of the board,
Chris Packson runs university, doesn't spect calcular job.
Speaker 1 (11:47):
After you graduated from Brown, you went to law schoo
at Notre Dame, Yes, sir. Then you went to practice
law back in Rhode Island. You're from Ohio. You went
to Notre Dame and the Midwest. Why did you go
back to Rhode Island?
Speaker 3 (11:57):
Well, none of the Boston law firms would hire a
person from Notre Dame in law school, so I had.
So I ended up in a great law firm and
had a great short.
Speaker 4 (12:05):
Legal career there.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
How did you escape from being a corporate lawyer? What
did you do?
Speaker 3 (12:09):
One of my mentors is named Terry Murray, who ran
Fleet and I was.
Speaker 4 (12:12):
I did corporate law.
Speaker 3 (12:14):
A lot of work I did for Fleet and then
Terry after we did a transaction called the bank Canoeing,
a transaction with KKR put money into the bank industry,
and we bought the Banknoeing and I mean you. Fleet
bought the Banknoeing And from the federal government in the
early nineties.
Speaker 4 (12:29):
After the real estate crisis.
Speaker 3 (12:32):
I'd structured that deal in a way that I'd structured
private equity eels for our bank private equity firm, which
was a thing called dual convertible per hered stock. It
converted into parent company stock or bank stock. Never been
done in the public array. Terry said to the General Council,
he's too smart to be a lawyer, which I never
figured out what the General Council thought about. He was
a brilliant guy, and he said, get him in here
(12:52):
and we'll figure out if he's gonna do something.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
Work at Fleet, which is headquartered in Rhode Island.
Speaker 3 (12:56):
I just went to work for Fleet, and I was
deputy general counsel for like three months, and I went
a special project to re engineer the company and came.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
And Fleet ultimately merged with Bank Boston.
Speaker 3 (13:05):
That was the last deal I did is I was
a head of M and A and strategy, and Terry
Murray and Chad Gifford put together that deal. Chad ultimately
took a liking to me as a great mentor and said,
you got to run a business, and put me in
running a business. And we were merging two companies together.
And I survived and ran the wealth management business for.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
If we ran the wealth manager business for the combined
Bank Boston Fleet, and then Bank Boston Fleet combined company
was sold to Bank of America.
Speaker 2 (13:33):
But then you became the general counsel.
Speaker 4 (13:35):
For forty days for.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
How long?
Speaker 4 (13:38):
Forty days and forty nights.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
All right, So we became the general counsel of the
combined Bank of America.
Speaker 3 (13:44):
Yeah, and then well then, so what happened was in
December of two thousand and eight, Remember we bought Marylyn
the Lehman Weekend and everything. So we were originally trying
to buy it Lehman. We said we couldn't do it
as a company. I was running that point the corporate
Investment Bank and other parts of Bank of America.
Speaker 4 (14:04):
We couldn't do that.
Speaker 3 (14:05):
And then over the weekend that's when the world became
very ugly, and so we bought Merrill. And then around
the time Merrill showed up without with a seven billion
dollar loss in the quarter, and with a lot less
capitainer's supposed to have, we started telling the government we
couldn't do the deal and stuff, and so Ken asked
me to be a general counsel because we were limiting
(14:27):
a lot of jobs, and I actually eliminated my job
and I was basically out of the company. Said you
know what, stay and become general counsel because we need somebody.
Speaker 4 (14:35):
And from December ninth to.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
Came the general counsel the Combined Bank of America.
Speaker 3 (14:39):
As we as we negotiate with the government to figure
out how to get the Meryl deal done.
Speaker 4 (14:43):
And then I went back in business right after.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
But then you left after that for a while.
Speaker 3 (14:47):
So then in early mid January of nine I took
over a bunch of the businesses after John Thane left
and went back into business.
Speaker 4 (14:55):
And then by the end of a nine MCU.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
Let's talk about the beginning of Bank of America. So
Bank America started as Bank of Italy. So who started
Bank of America and why did you name it after
Italy as opposed to America.
Speaker 3 (15:07):
Well, apg And who was Italian descent, started the Bank
of Italy when he came to the country in San
Francisco to help the local the Italian community that emigrated
to San Francisco, and he became famous in the San
Francisco earthquakes and fires in the early nineteen hundreds by
setting up a barrel and starting lend money. And then
(15:28):
fast forward to nineteen ninety nine when Nations Bank, which
was the North Carolina Bank which is the bank the
bank today, and the Bank of America merged. You had
two good names.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
Now on the personal side, you've been there fifteen years.
You haven't announced any time, and you might step back
and you're not prepared to announce that today, right, No,
I don't, so I'll tell you first, Okay, So have
you been able to convince your children to go in
the banking world.
Speaker 3 (15:58):
My oldest son's and investment b anchor for a different firm. Obviously,
in my uh, my middle child is a risk manager
for another for in financial services, and my youngers and
communications and other stuff. But they look, being a CEO's
child is not the easiest thing being a CEO's spouse.
Speaker 4 (16:15):
And they saw me work in different ways across the years.
Speaker 3 (16:19):
And ye, so it's their decision with their careers and
and it's it's nice.
Speaker 4 (16:24):
My son, he's a deal doer, he's an m and
a type of guy. So it's it's fun. Because I
used to do that, I haven't done that long time.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
So let's say ask i't ask you about this banking today.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
Why do we need all these bank facilities, bank branches, buildings,
financial centers because everything is done online, it seems do
you actually have a lot of buildings? You really need
all those buildings you have where you have your bank.
Speaker 3 (16:47):
This is this is the classic do as I do,
not as I say, Because in the day between this
morning when the banks open up to tomorrow morning, four
hundred thousand people come into a branch. So this idea
nobody goes to bank branch just is not true. The
idea nobody uses cash. We'll have about a quarter billion
dollars and we'll go out of our ATM machines in
(17:08):
the next twenty four hours, the idea, but nobody writes checks.
Speaker 4 (17:12):
There were one hundred millions.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
How many How many banks do you have around the
country an hour?
Speaker 4 (17:16):
You have three thy seven hundred.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
What about ATMs? You have a lot of them, We.
Speaker 4 (17:19):
Have about fourteen thousand of them.
Speaker 3 (17:21):
At the high point, you had eighteen thousand, and that's technology.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
How has the world of technology affected the banking world?
So right now so called fintech. Has fintech dramatically changed
the way Bank of America operates.
Speaker 3 (17:34):
It's so we invest about four billion dollars in new
code every year. Every weekend, we'll have a couple million
lines of code go in to amend our systems and
change our systems or add new technology that's not to
run the systems. That's another eight or nine billion dollars
that is just new activity.
Speaker 4 (17:53):
So the impacts have been unbelievable.
Speaker 3 (17:54):
So in the mid nineties, when I was the head
of strategy to the company, I remember, you know, consultants
coming in saying twenty years will be no bank branches.
Well it's thirty years and guess what we still have
thirty seven hundred. And the reality is people wanted all
the ways.
Speaker 4 (18:07):
So but the.
Speaker 3 (18:07):
Impact of the phone iPhone in particular was so different,
and we were the first app available on the iPhone.
You now have forty million consumers who bank digitally with
us all the time.
Speaker 4 (18:21):
Last year we had about you know, about ninety.
Speaker 3 (18:26):
Plus percent of our interactions with consumers are digital.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
So if I want to go to using ATM and
I have a Bank of America ATM CAR, but I
don't see any Bank of America ATMs. I go to
some other bank ATM, I pay a fee.
Speaker 3 (18:40):
Is that you wouldn't, David, Because you're right, you wouldn't
that other people might.
Speaker 1 (18:45):
I thought that to pay a fee pray fee? I mean,
is that a profit center for banks? Those fees are?
Speaker 3 (18:51):
You know, at the end of the day, we get
fifty five percent of our revenue or one hundred million
dollars of revenue last year, fifty five percent came from
interest five percent fees. The dominant part of those fees
are trading revenue and asset management fees and things like that.
We have consumer fees, but they've come down dramatically because
(19:11):
basically you said that the consumers, you keep changing your behavior,
We keep driving on the cost to serve, and we'll
give that back by low and lower fee structure.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
And do you think we will have in our collective
lifetime no more currency, Everything will be digital or you
think that's.
Speaker 4 (19:26):
Not likely, not in our lifetime?
Speaker 2 (19:28):
What about a.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
Digital currency which doesn't preclude other things, but a digital currency.
Speaker 3 (19:33):
It's pretty clear there's going to be a stable coin,
which is going to be a full of dollar backed
type of thing, which is no different than a money
market fund, a check access is no different than a
bank account really, and so if they if they make
that legal, we'll go into that business. So you'll have
a be a Bank of America coin a and a
US dollar deposit, and we'll be able to move them
(19:53):
back and forth, because now it hasn't been legal for
us to do it, but it's just then like another
foreign currency. The question of it's useful for it's going
to be interesting.
Speaker 1 (20:01):
So if I wanted to buy and make an investment
in a bank stock, would you say it's a good
idea to invest in bank stocks?
Speaker 3 (20:09):
Now our valuation difference to the SMP is lower than
it's been, and I think our company is a great
value and US the banks are pretty good value.
Speaker 4 (20:18):
Hey.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
So now there's an acronym today that some people in
Washington don't like, called DEI.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
Do you have a DEI policy or not? Anymore?
Speaker 3 (20:30):
We've always been as a bank of opportunity, So we
think about creating an opportunity for our teammates, and.
Speaker 4 (20:36):
How do we do that. We go out and.
Speaker 3 (20:38):
Hire from all areas and bring people into our companies.
Speaker 4 (20:42):
So we go to four hundred different schools to recruit kids.
We go. We have a path program we called Pathways.
Speaker 3 (20:48):
So Pathways we announced in twenty eighteen we said we'd
hire ten thousand people from low and modern income neighborhoods
to come work in our company. So once we have
a very diverse company in terms of representation from all
economic status, all races as, once they get in, the
opportunity is.
Speaker 4 (21:02):
There of a lifetime.
Speaker 3 (21:04):
We equal pay for equal work, the ability to promote,
and so the idea is just great opportunity. So we
have a diverse team. We stress inclusion, so when you're
at our company, you can be who you want to
be and be successful. Including we have three hundred thousand
memberships in our employee resource groups, of which about sixty
percent of people are in one.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
A young professional, young person's graduate in college. Why should
they go into the banking profession as opposed to private
equity investment, banking, healthcare?
Speaker 2 (21:33):
What's the appeal of working in a bank?
Speaker 3 (21:35):
Well, when we bring the two thousand kids in and
I talked to them, I always say the same thing,
you can make a lot of money doing a lot
of things. You can have a great career, do a
lot of things, but if you're going to come to
our company, you really want to help people.
Speaker 4 (21:50):
Our market position is what would you like the power
to do?
Speaker 3 (21:53):
And I said, your job at this company is to
help people answer that question, whether it's a customer, whether
it's a teammate, whether it's a shareholder, whether it's a community, And.
Speaker 4 (22:02):
You've got to come and want to do that.
Speaker 3 (22:04):
You want to deliver a lot of profits done the
right way, with the purpose around it.
Speaker 1 (22:11):
Thanks for listening to hear more of my interviews. You
can subscribe and download my podcast on Spotify, Apple, or
wherever you listen.
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