December 12, 2024 • 23 mins
Carla Hayden is the first female and only the 14th Librarian of Congress in history since the Library of Congress was established in 1800. In an episode of "The David Rubenstein Show: Peer to Peer Conversations," she talks about the library's history; how it's evolved into the largest library in the world with 178 million items, as well as the challenges our society faces in the digital world. She also discusses her efforts to make the library and its unique collections more accessible to the public. Hayden was nominated to the position by Former President Barack Obama in 2016 and was confirmed by the US Senate that summer. This interview was recorded on August 23 in Washington DC.
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
The Library of Congress is the largest library in the world.
It's led by Carla Hayden, the Librarian of Congress. She's
unique because she's the first woman to be library in Congress,
the first African American to be Library in Congress, and
also one of the first librarians to be library in Congress.
I had a chance to sit down with her recently
to hear her story and how she's trying to open
up the Library of Congress to all Americans. So why
(00:25):
does Congress need a library? Can't they just use the
regular library other people have. Why do they need their
own library?
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Well, Congress, and think about this. In eighteen hundred, a
new nation, a new legislative body, there was the thought
that they needed some reference books, and they were mainly
law books. The first books that were purchased about six
hundred books. And that's how the Library of Congress really started.
(00:54):
Think of the name the Library of Congress. So it
is a reference and research tool for Congress. And they
knew that because they have parliamentary libraries and they knew
about those types of things, so they knew that as
legislators they might have to refer.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
Now in twenty twenty four. The Library of Congress is
much bigger than it was when we first started eighteen hundred.
But is it really properly named the Library of Congress
now because it isn't more than just a library for
congressmen and women.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Well, it's evolved, and over time it evolved into not
only the reference tool for Congress. And there's still about
five hundred experts in just about every field that are
dedicated to being the researchers and nonpartisan experts for Congress.
(01:47):
And that's still there, but the library has expanded to
serve the people that Congress serves.
Speaker 3 (01:54):
So now it is.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
The largest library in the world, with one hundred and
seventy eight million items, and it serves everyone.
Speaker 3 (02:04):
Now.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
The only people who can actually check out materials in
the traditional sense are members of Congress and their staff members.
But members of the public, the general public, can come
into the Library of Congress's facilities and use materials on site.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
Let's suppose I am a person who wants to use
the Library Congress for research and I need some books
I want to take home to read them at home.
I cannot do that if I'm a regular, you.
Speaker 3 (02:32):
Could not do that.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
What you could do and what many libraries, public libraries,
and university and college libraries throughout the United States and
even in some international facilities. The Library of Congress will
loan materials to another library and a patron could look
at the materials right there, but they couldn't take them home,
(02:54):
but they could look at them in their own library.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
Okay, so what does the Library Congress actually do?
Speaker 3 (03:02):
Now?
Speaker 2 (03:02):
The Library and of Congress is basically the CEO of
the entire enterprise, and that includes the US Copyright Office.
The Library of Congress in eighteen seventy became the administrative
operation and really the main manager of the US copyright system.
(03:25):
That's also how the library collection grew because when you
register for copyright whatever it is, you are required to
deposit too copies of whatever it is now that could
be wallpaper, video games, but books. And when the Library
of Congress became the administrator of the copyright system, they
(03:49):
were able to then select from deposits and the collection
really grew.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
So we've had the Library of Congress who started in
eighteen hundred. Many women have been librarians of Congress before you.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
I'm their first female Library of Congress since eighteen oh two.
So the library itself was established the law books in
eighteen hundred, and then in eighteen oh two there was
a thought, well, we need somebody to manage this, and
that's when the first Librarian of Congress was appointed.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
How many African Americans have been Library of Congress before you?
Speaker 2 (04:25):
That's also me and so I'm a twofer in terms
of that. So there haven't been any people of color
or females, And it's interesting the most one of the
most unusual parts of being in the position is the
fact that I'm a female, because librarianship is one of
(04:46):
what they call the four feminized professions, where eighty five
to ninety percent of the people who work in the
institution are female, but the top management doesn't reflect that.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
So is there a library that's bigger than the Library
of Congress anywhere in the world? Does any country have
a bigger collection of books than the Library of Congress.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
We've just been designated in the Guinness Book of World
Records as the largest library in the world, and our
closest competitor, and it's really not a competition, is the
British Library. That's the National Library of Great Britain, and
we have a friendly kind of rivalry, but in terms
of number of items, and we definitely are the largest.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
So you have more than books. You have regular books,
you have comic books, you have maps, you have manuscripts, so.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
Photographs, film, all types, any format.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
Let me ask you today, almost everything is digitized, it seems,
so why do we really need libraries since you can
just go on a computer and get everything. Do you
really need to keep all these books? Why not just
digitize them and then say thank you?
Speaker 2 (05:55):
There are so many items that have not been digitized
and might not ever be digitized. When you think about
the diaries of Theodore Roosevelt. The Library Congress has the
papers of twenty three presidents from George Washington to Coolidge.
There will still be analog materials that could be digitized,
(06:20):
but will be in analog form and books. Even though
you can get things in digital form, there are still
people and there still will be an appetite for a
physical item. But the future is definitely digital, and so
(06:40):
libraries like the Library Congress, British Library, all libraries are
making sure that they have the infrastructure to be able
to get materials that are born digital. And so we
have quite a bit of materials that are coming in.
They never are in analog form. They're coming straight in
digital film and we're able to circulate.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
Them as we talk. Now, what do you think you
have done in your period of time eight years or
so to open up the library to the average citizen
more than was done before, specifically with respective children. What
have you done well?
Speaker 2 (07:16):
We've started to be a card member to use the
eighteen reading rooms of the library.
Speaker 3 (07:23):
Cards will have to be sixteen. It's a card.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
It's a reader's card to give you access to the materials,
to say that you're responsible in that even though you
can't check them out. It's to have a record of
who's coming in and to do that. What we've done, though,
is to expand the offerings that we have for young people.
We have a Young People's Ambassador for Literature, We have
(07:47):
literacy programs.
Speaker 3 (07:49):
And you've been involved in.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
Giving actual awards to literacy groups that help young people
learn how to read. And so the offerings that we
have for young people people have expanded greatly.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
Literacy is a big problem in the United States. I
think fourteen percent of adults are functioning illiterate, which means
they can't read past the fourth grade. Level, that's a
large percentage of the population. Nothing the Library of Congress
can do can completely solve that problem. But are you
surprised at how many people still cannot read in this country?
And how many people have another problem called illiteracy or
(08:23):
literacy which means they can read, but they don't choose
to read. They don't and is that a growing problem?
Speaker 2 (08:29):
And that's it's a challenge with the digital age because
people are they're reading on tablet, so we do count
that as reading. If you have an ebook, you're reading
the book. And I've been often asked if I'm listening
to a book, are you reading?
Speaker 3 (08:45):
Does that count?
Speaker 2 (08:47):
But there is a concern that the amount of reading
actual texts that people are doing is diminishing. And so
how do you work with other organizations? So the Library
Congress connects to public library school libraries and we do
joint programming with them because there is an opportunity for
(09:11):
us to let people know and to make reading more interesting.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
So literacy is a challenge for sure, But in the
libraries around the country, our libraries being used more and
more because people can't afford to buy books, or are
they being used because it's a good place to gather
where it's quiet. Why don't we actually have all these
thousands of libraries anymore? When people are often doing things
digitally and they don't need to go to a physical
place to get a book.
Speaker 2 (09:37):
People are using public libraries as and someone is it
as opportunity centers. They use the high speed computers to
fill out job applications, to interact with government.
Speaker 3 (09:50):
They hold e government aspect.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
They are using libraries as places to register to vote, to.
Speaker 3 (09:58):
Vote and all types of things.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
And libraries are offering collections that are beyond books. So
libraries are circulating and responding to communities in so many ways.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
So let's talk a bit about your background, how you
became a librarian. So where were you born?
Speaker 2 (10:17):
I was born on the campus of Florida A and
M University, historically Black college in Tallahassee, Florida.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
And were your parents' teachers there?
Speaker 2 (10:29):
Yes, My father had been recruited to start the string
department at that school. He was a classically trained violinist
and string instruments and so he was there. And then
my mom was a pianist. She was as a companists
many times, and so they went down there.
Speaker 3 (10:50):
They'd never been to Florida.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
They had never been to a historically back college and
they were from Springfield, Illinois, my dad and Champagne or
my mom, so it was just a totally different experience
for them.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
So let me ask you how you got out of
Florida because you were born there, you're raised there. But
then where did you go to college?
Speaker 3 (11:12):
Well, there was a little byway there.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
My dad got bitten by the Jazz Book and we
moved to New York City so we could pursue that
parents got divorced because my mom did not get bitten
by that book. So then we returned to their home
states of Illinois. So I ended up going to high
(11:34):
school and then college in Chicago.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
And you went to college ultimately.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
Where Roosevelt University and University of Chicago.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
Right, So you got a PhD in Library Sciences at
the University Coago. Yes, So are there many library schools anymore?
Because I thought some of them, that one of the
U in Chicago no longer exists. But are there still
a lot of library schools around the United States?
Speaker 2 (11:57):
They're about fifty six library schools, but now they're mainly
called information science schools, Schools of information science or information management.
The University of Chicago school closed and the Columbia University
closed because their programs were deemed a little too academic.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
So after you got your PhD from the University of
Chicago and library Sciences, what did you do well?
Speaker 2 (12:26):
I went off to teach at the Library School and
University of Pittsburgh. And that school was really before its time.
The dean there was Tony Carbel, really wanted to make
sure that there was a merger with information science computer science.
She brought in technology companies and it was really an
(12:49):
innovative library school.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
And then did you go back to Chicago from there?
Speaker 2 (12:54):
I went back, and I went back because one of
my students that I had sent off with all this
knowledge is power and go and work in these libraries
and help people and everything. He came back and said,
I'm going to get a PhD and.
Speaker 3 (13:13):
I want to teach.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
And I said, but you were doing so well, I
thought at this big urban library, and he said, well,
you told me to bring my ideas up. And I
saw the director of the library and I went up
to him and he I was trying to tell him
some of the things that I was interested in, and
he blew me off, and I thought, oh, okay, this
(13:36):
isn't and so I'm coming back to academ.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
So what did you do? You joined the Chicago.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
Chicago Public Library and you rose up to be the
chief librarian. I went back to Chicago also did a
stint at the Museum of Science and Industry, and that
was really helpful because I worked more with the curators,
but also opening up a public library in a museum.
Speaker 1 (14:03):
So we're in Chicago. You met two people. Did they
borrow a lot of books of Barack and Michelle Obama?
Where they did they ever have overdue fines or anything?
Speaker 2 (14:12):
Well, we could never tell if they did. But what
happened was when I went back, the person that was
the administrator for the city of Chicago that had in
her portfolio the public library was Michelle Robinson, and I
got to know her because she was responsible as a
(14:34):
deputy mayor type of position. And then she got engaged
to this gentleman who had an interesting name. And I
was recruited to head up the Baltimore Library. And so
in that July I missed the wedding.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
Oh whatever happened to him, he did well.
Speaker 2 (14:53):
It was so interesting too that years later I would
be sitting almost like this in the Oval Office being
interviewed by the President of the United States, because that's
the person who nominates the library to Congress.
Speaker 3 (15:11):
And it's that.
Speaker 1 (15:13):
So you already knew them. But let's talk about Baltimore.
You went to my hometown in Baltimore, where the library
system is called the inocaprat Free Library System, and you
became the head library and there for twenty two years.
Speaker 3 (15:24):
Twenty two years.
Speaker 1 (15:25):
Hey, so you're the head library for twenty two years
in Baltimore. And then the President of the United States
has the responsibility to nominate for Senate confirmation the Library
of Congress. I went members of Congress nominate the Library
of Congress since it's a Congress thing.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
Believe it started with Lincoln, and that it would be
a position that the President would nominate similar to a
Supreme Court justice, and that it was that type of position,
and so you still have to be confirmed by the Senate.
Speaker 3 (16:03):
And I went through that process.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
So you interviewed with President Obama and he said, do
you want to be Library of Congress? And I guess
you said you were interested.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
I was concerned about what I could bring to the
position because I had been so involved with public libraries
public access all of that career, but I never thought
of actually being part of the Library Congress because of
what the perception was that it was mainly for scholars.
(16:33):
It was that, And so what President Obama asked me
was he started it out with telling me that he
had seen the contents of Abraham Lincoln's pockets the night
he was assassinated. He had seen the first the draft
reading copy of the Gettysburg Address at lincoln Ton. But
he said at the Library of Congress. But he said,
(16:54):
I think that's because of my position, And he said,
what could you do with your background to open up
the Library of Congress to everyone? And that's what I
thought and said to him, I think I can do that.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
So the government of the United States pays for the
Library of Congress. But do you take donations or you
do not interested in donations?
Speaker 2 (17:17):
Well, we have wonderful philanthropic support the James Madison Council.
You've definitely have been the leader of that, and that's
the philanthropic arm of the library. And so there are
actual donations of cash that but also grants. The Mellon
(17:37):
Foundation gave the library one of its largest grants ever
to work with communities about their histories. And also we
just started a friends group. The Library of Congress had
never had a friends group. And so at a certain
level you can be a friend of the Library of
Congress and then people give actual collectictions and collection items,
(18:02):
and that's truly wonderful because we wouldn't be able to
purchase some of the things that people have given us.
Speaker 1 (18:09):
So let me ask you about the library itself today.
How many employees do you have?
Speaker 2 (18:19):
Roughly thirty five hundred are They're not all librarians. Those
are the people that you have, copyright lawyers, all types
of people that work at the library.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
Car Now very often when I've seen Library of Congress employees,
I asked them how long they've been here, and they
sipicly say, oh, thirty five years. That's a long time.
They say, no, somebody here is forty years. Somebody here
is forty five years. Why don't people stay so long
at the Library of Congress.
Speaker 3 (18:42):
They love it. One of the joys.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
It's like being in a university. They're like faculty members,
and there are subject experts in whatever subject you have.
The Library of Congress there collects in four hundred and
seventy languages. Half of the collection is in languages other
than English, and so the Middle Eastern division, you're going
(19:05):
to have experts from the region who are from the
region and speak.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
So today you've got thirty five hundred employees. Where do
you get your money from? To library finds? I assume
are not that big a part of your business.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
And this is where the accessibility for everyone comes into play,
because eighty five to ninety percent of the library's operating
budget is from an appropriation from Congress, and that's taxpayer money.
And so that's another reason why we're really just devoted
(19:42):
to making sure people know that this is their library too.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
So it was a joint committee on the Library.
Speaker 2 (19:48):
For the library budget goes through the appropriations committees on
both sides Senate and House, and then there are pol
committees that help with the direction of the library itself,
though budgeting gives you direction as well.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
What do you do when you're not being a library
in a Congress?
Speaker 2 (20:11):
I always love to read, and so when I get
some spare time, I can look at old New Yorkers
and you know how they poll up. I could read
a mystery. I love mysteries and biographies.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
But you don't go to any bookstores because you don't
need to buy books too.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
You go to books to the Ivory Bookstore in Baltimore.
And it's funny because now people are watching what I'm buying,
so you have to be careful.
Speaker 1 (20:40):
So as we talk, this weekend is the National Book
Festival Weekend. This has been going off for about twenty
plus years or so. What actually happens at the National
Book Festival.
Speaker 3 (20:51):
Oh, and it is a festival.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
It's a one day event with over ninety authors now
and it was started by first Lady Laura Bush, when
my predecessor, when she came to Washington, she had started
the Texas Book Festival. That's one of still one of
the largest book festivals in the country. And they started
it about twenty four years ago. And it when you
(21:16):
think about what we have for young people and what
we do for young people. There's an entire section that
is going to feature interactive activities and authors for young people.
Famous authors that we all know, Doris Currents, Goodwin, James McBride,
James Patterson will be there. You'll be there, and it's
(21:37):
just heartening when you we've just talked about illiteracy, and
when you see all of these book lovers that are gathered,
thousands and thousands of people.
Speaker 1 (21:49):
Who presidents of the United States have will come up
and borrow a book, or they don't they're too busy
to do that. They don't call you and say do
you have this book or something.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
Well, we have had some good relations with the White
House in terms of putting books on display for certain things,
and we've been doing more of that recently.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
So what kind of books do you like to read?
Are you non fiction.
Speaker 3 (22:10):
Or I mentioned mysteries.
Speaker 2 (22:12):
A big mystery fan because you feel some sense of satisfaction.
Speaker 3 (22:18):
With it.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
Someone usually gets killed, nobody cares, but and then it's solved.
Speaker 3 (22:25):
So that's very reassuring.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
So let's talk about the Library of Congress in the future.
Let's say ten, twenty thirty years from now. Do you
expect libraries like the Library Congress to be more relevant,
less relevant, more technologically savvy, or about the same as now.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
They're going to be more technologically savvy, but they're also
going to be and we're seeing it now. Even though
there are some challenges in terms of what public libraries
and school libraries offer They're going to be even more relevant.
Speaker 3 (22:57):
Because there's still trusted source of.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
Information and in the world of misinformation, who can you trust?
What are those trusted sources? Libraries are still going to
be places that people look to.
Speaker 1 (23:11):
Thanks for listening to hear more of my interviews. You
can subscribe and download my podcast on Spotify, Apple, or
wherever you listen.
The Library of Congress is the largest library in the world.
It's led by Carla Hayden, the Librarian of Congress. She's
unique because she's the first woman to be library in Congress,
the first African American to be Library in Congress, and
also one of the first librarians to be library in Congress.
I had a chance to sit down with her recently
to hear her story and how she's trying to open
up the Library of Congress to all Americans. So why
(00:25):
does Congress need a library? Can't they just use the
regular library other people have. Why do they need their
own library?
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Well, Congress, and think about this. In eighteen hundred, a
new nation, a new legislative body, there was the thought
that they needed some reference books, and they were mainly
law books. The first books that were purchased about six
hundred books. And that's how the Library of Congress really started.
(00:54):
Think of the name the Library of Congress. So it
is a reference and research tool for Congress. And they
knew that because they have parliamentary libraries and they knew
about those types of things, so they knew that as
legislators they might have to refer.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
Now in twenty twenty four. The Library of Congress is
much bigger than it was when we first started eighteen hundred.
But is it really properly named the Library of Congress
now because it isn't more than just a library for
congressmen and women.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Well, it's evolved, and over time it evolved into not
only the reference tool for Congress. And there's still about
five hundred experts in just about every field that are
dedicated to being the researchers and nonpartisan experts for Congress.
(01:47):
And that's still there, but the library has expanded to
serve the people that Congress serves.
Speaker 3 (01:54):
So now it is.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
The largest library in the world, with one hundred and
seventy eight million items, and it serves everyone.
Speaker 3 (02:04):
Now.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
The only people who can actually check out materials in
the traditional sense are members of Congress and their staff members.
But members of the public, the general public, can come
into the Library of Congress's facilities and use materials on site.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
Let's suppose I am a person who wants to use
the Library Congress for research and I need some books
I want to take home to read them at home.
I cannot do that if I'm a regular, you.
Speaker 3 (02:32):
Could not do that.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
What you could do and what many libraries, public libraries,
and university and college libraries throughout the United States and
even in some international facilities. The Library of Congress will
loan materials to another library and a patron could look
at the materials right there, but they couldn't take them home,
(02:54):
but they could look at them in their own library.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
Okay, so what does the Library Congress actually do?
Speaker 3 (03:02):
Now?
Speaker 2 (03:02):
The Library and of Congress is basically the CEO of
the entire enterprise, and that includes the US Copyright Office.
The Library of Congress in eighteen seventy became the administrative
operation and really the main manager of the US copyright system.
(03:25):
That's also how the library collection grew because when you
register for copyright whatever it is, you are required to
deposit too copies of whatever it is now that could
be wallpaper, video games, but books. And when the Library
of Congress became the administrator of the copyright system, they
(03:49):
were able to then select from deposits and the collection
really grew.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
So we've had the Library of Congress who started in
eighteen hundred. Many women have been librarians of Congress before you.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
I'm their first female Library of Congress since eighteen oh two.
So the library itself was established the law books in
eighteen hundred, and then in eighteen oh two there was
a thought, well, we need somebody to manage this, and
that's when the first Librarian of Congress was appointed.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
How many African Americans have been Library of Congress before you?
Speaker 2 (04:25):
That's also me and so I'm a twofer in terms
of that. So there haven't been any people of color
or females, And it's interesting the most one of the
most unusual parts of being in the position is the
fact that I'm a female, because librarianship is one of
(04:46):
what they call the four feminized professions, where eighty five
to ninety percent of the people who work in the
institution are female, but the top management doesn't reflect that.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
So is there a library that's bigger than the Library
of Congress anywhere in the world? Does any country have
a bigger collection of books than the Library of Congress.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
We've just been designated in the Guinness Book of World
Records as the largest library in the world, and our
closest competitor, and it's really not a competition, is the
British Library. That's the National Library of Great Britain, and
we have a friendly kind of rivalry, but in terms
of number of items, and we definitely are the largest.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
So you have more than books. You have regular books,
you have comic books, you have maps, you have manuscripts, so.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
Photographs, film, all types, any format.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
Let me ask you today, almost everything is digitized, it seems,
so why do we really need libraries since you can
just go on a computer and get everything. Do you
really need to keep all these books? Why not just
digitize them and then say thank you?
Speaker 2 (05:55):
There are so many items that have not been digitized
and might not ever be digitized. When you think about
the diaries of Theodore Roosevelt. The Library Congress has the
papers of twenty three presidents from George Washington to Coolidge.
There will still be analog materials that could be digitized,
(06:20):
but will be in analog form and books. Even though
you can get things in digital form, there are still
people and there still will be an appetite for a
physical item. But the future is definitely digital, and so
(06:40):
libraries like the Library Congress, British Library, all libraries are
making sure that they have the infrastructure to be able
to get materials that are born digital. And so we
have quite a bit of materials that are coming in.
They never are in analog form. They're coming straight in
digital film and we're able to circulate.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
Them as we talk. Now, what do you think you
have done in your period of time eight years or
so to open up the library to the average citizen
more than was done before, specifically with respective children. What
have you done well?
Speaker 2 (07:16):
We've started to be a card member to use the
eighteen reading rooms of the library.
Speaker 3 (07:23):
Cards will have to be sixteen. It's a card.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
It's a reader's card to give you access to the materials,
to say that you're responsible in that even though you
can't check them out. It's to have a record of
who's coming in and to do that. What we've done, though,
is to expand the offerings that we have for young people.
We have a Young People's Ambassador for Literature, We have
(07:47):
literacy programs.
Speaker 3 (07:49):
And you've been involved in.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
Giving actual awards to literacy groups that help young people
learn how to read. And so the offerings that we
have for young people people have expanded greatly.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
Literacy is a big problem in the United States. I
think fourteen percent of adults are functioning illiterate, which means
they can't read past the fourth grade. Level, that's a
large percentage of the population. Nothing the Library of Congress
can do can completely solve that problem. But are you
surprised at how many people still cannot read in this country?
And how many people have another problem called illiteracy or
(08:23):
literacy which means they can read, but they don't choose
to read. They don't and is that a growing problem?
Speaker 2 (08:29):
And that's it's a challenge with the digital age because
people are they're reading on tablet, so we do count
that as reading. If you have an ebook, you're reading
the book. And I've been often asked if I'm listening
to a book, are you reading?
Speaker 3 (08:45):
Does that count?
Speaker 2 (08:47):
But there is a concern that the amount of reading
actual texts that people are doing is diminishing. And so
how do you work with other organizations? So the Library
Congress connects to public library school libraries and we do
joint programming with them because there is an opportunity for
(09:11):
us to let people know and to make reading more interesting.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
So literacy is a challenge for sure, But in the
libraries around the country, our libraries being used more and
more because people can't afford to buy books, or are
they being used because it's a good place to gather
where it's quiet. Why don't we actually have all these
thousands of libraries anymore? When people are often doing things
digitally and they don't need to go to a physical
place to get a book.
Speaker 2 (09:37):
People are using public libraries as and someone is it
as opportunity centers. They use the high speed computers to
fill out job applications, to interact with government.
Speaker 3 (09:50):
They hold e government aspect.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
They are using libraries as places to register to vote, to.
Speaker 3 (09:58):
Vote and all types of things.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
And libraries are offering collections that are beyond books. So
libraries are circulating and responding to communities in so many ways.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
So let's talk a bit about your background, how you
became a librarian. So where were you born?
Speaker 2 (10:17):
I was born on the campus of Florida A and
M University, historically Black college in Tallahassee, Florida.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
And were your parents' teachers there?
Speaker 2 (10:29):
Yes, My father had been recruited to start the string
department at that school. He was a classically trained violinist
and string instruments and so he was there. And then
my mom was a pianist. She was as a companists
many times, and so they went down there.
Speaker 3 (10:50):
They'd never been to Florida.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
They had never been to a historically back college and
they were from Springfield, Illinois, my dad and Champagne or
my mom, so it was just a totally different experience
for them.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
So let me ask you how you got out of
Florida because you were born there, you're raised there. But
then where did you go to college?
Speaker 3 (11:12):
Well, there was a little byway there.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
My dad got bitten by the Jazz Book and we
moved to New York City so we could pursue that
parents got divorced because my mom did not get bitten
by that book. So then we returned to their home
states of Illinois. So I ended up going to high
(11:34):
school and then college in Chicago.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
And you went to college ultimately.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
Where Roosevelt University and University of Chicago.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
Right, So you got a PhD in Library Sciences at
the University Coago. Yes, So are there many library schools anymore?
Because I thought some of them, that one of the
U in Chicago no longer exists. But are there still
a lot of library schools around the United States?
Speaker 2 (11:57):
They're about fifty six library schools, but now they're mainly
called information science schools, Schools of information science or information management.
The University of Chicago school closed and the Columbia University
closed because their programs were deemed a little too academic.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
So after you got your PhD from the University of
Chicago and library Sciences, what did you do well?
Speaker 2 (12:26):
I went off to teach at the Library School and
University of Pittsburgh. And that school was really before its time.
The dean there was Tony Carbel, really wanted to make
sure that there was a merger with information science computer science.
She brought in technology companies and it was really an
(12:49):
innovative library school.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
And then did you go back to Chicago from there?
Speaker 2 (12:54):
I went back, and I went back because one of
my students that I had sent off with all this
knowledge is power and go and work in these libraries
and help people and everything. He came back and said,
I'm going to get a PhD and.
Speaker 3 (13:13):
I want to teach.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
And I said, but you were doing so well, I
thought at this big urban library, and he said, well,
you told me to bring my ideas up. And I
saw the director of the library and I went up
to him and he I was trying to tell him
some of the things that I was interested in, and
he blew me off, and I thought, oh, okay, this
(13:36):
isn't and so I'm coming back to academ.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
So what did you do? You joined the Chicago.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
Chicago Public Library and you rose up to be the
chief librarian. I went back to Chicago also did a
stint at the Museum of Science and Industry, and that
was really helpful because I worked more with the curators,
but also opening up a public library in a museum.
Speaker 1 (14:03):
So we're in Chicago. You met two people. Did they
borrow a lot of books of Barack and Michelle Obama?
Where they did they ever have overdue fines or anything?
Speaker 2 (14:12):
Well, we could never tell if they did. But what
happened was when I went back, the person that was
the administrator for the city of Chicago that had in
her portfolio the public library was Michelle Robinson, and I
got to know her because she was responsible as a
(14:34):
deputy mayor type of position. And then she got engaged
to this gentleman who had an interesting name. And I
was recruited to head up the Baltimore Library. And so
in that July I missed the wedding.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
Oh whatever happened to him, he did well.
Speaker 2 (14:53):
It was so interesting too that years later I would
be sitting almost like this in the Oval Office being
interviewed by the President of the United States, because that's
the person who nominates the library to Congress.
Speaker 3 (15:11):
And it's that.
Speaker 1 (15:13):
So you already knew them. But let's talk about Baltimore.
You went to my hometown in Baltimore, where the library
system is called the inocaprat Free Library System, and you
became the head library and there for twenty two years.
Speaker 3 (15:24):
Twenty two years.
Speaker 1 (15:25):
Hey, so you're the head library for twenty two years
in Baltimore. And then the President of the United States
has the responsibility to nominate for Senate confirmation the Library
of Congress. I went members of Congress nominate the Library
of Congress since it's a Congress thing.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
Believe it started with Lincoln, and that it would be
a position that the President would nominate similar to a
Supreme Court justice, and that it was that type of position,
and so you still have to be confirmed by the Senate.
Speaker 3 (16:03):
And I went through that process.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
So you interviewed with President Obama and he said, do
you want to be Library of Congress? And I guess
you said you were interested.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
I was concerned about what I could bring to the
position because I had been so involved with public libraries
public access all of that career, but I never thought
of actually being part of the Library Congress because of
what the perception was that it was mainly for scholars.
(16:33):
It was that, And so what President Obama asked me
was he started it out with telling me that he
had seen the contents of Abraham Lincoln's pockets the night
he was assassinated. He had seen the first the draft
reading copy of the Gettysburg Address at lincoln Ton. But
he said at the Library of Congress. But he said,
(16:54):
I think that's because of my position, And he said,
what could you do with your background to open up
the Library of Congress to everyone? And that's what I
thought and said to him, I think I can do that.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
So the government of the United States pays for the
Library of Congress. But do you take donations or you
do not interested in donations?
Speaker 2 (17:17):
Well, we have wonderful philanthropic support the James Madison Council.
You've definitely have been the leader of that, and that's
the philanthropic arm of the library. And so there are
actual donations of cash that but also grants. The Mellon
(17:37):
Foundation gave the library one of its largest grants ever
to work with communities about their histories. And also we
just started a friends group. The Library of Congress had
never had a friends group. And so at a certain
level you can be a friend of the Library of
Congress and then people give actual collectictions and collection items,
(18:02):
and that's truly wonderful because we wouldn't be able to
purchase some of the things that people have given us.
Speaker 1 (18:09):
So let me ask you about the library itself today.
How many employees do you have?
Speaker 2 (18:19):
Roughly thirty five hundred are They're not all librarians. Those
are the people that you have, copyright lawyers, all types
of people that work at the library.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
Car Now very often when I've seen Library of Congress employees,
I asked them how long they've been here, and they
sipicly say, oh, thirty five years. That's a long time.
They say, no, somebody here is forty years. Somebody here
is forty five years. Why don't people stay so long
at the Library of Congress.
Speaker 3 (18:42):
They love it. One of the joys.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
It's like being in a university. They're like faculty members,
and there are subject experts in whatever subject you have.
The Library of Congress there collects in four hundred and
seventy languages. Half of the collection is in languages other
than English, and so the Middle Eastern division, you're going
(19:05):
to have experts from the region who are from the
region and speak.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
So today you've got thirty five hundred employees. Where do
you get your money from? To library finds? I assume
are not that big a part of your business.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
And this is where the accessibility for everyone comes into play,
because eighty five to ninety percent of the library's operating
budget is from an appropriation from Congress, and that's taxpayer money.
And so that's another reason why we're really just devoted
(19:42):
to making sure people know that this is their library too.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
So it was a joint committee on the Library.
Speaker 2 (19:48):
For the library budget goes through the appropriations committees on
both sides Senate and House, and then there are pol
committees that help with the direction of the library itself,
though budgeting gives you direction as well.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
What do you do when you're not being a library
in a Congress?
Speaker 2 (20:11):
I always love to read, and so when I get
some spare time, I can look at old New Yorkers
and you know how they poll up. I could read
a mystery. I love mysteries and biographies.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
But you don't go to any bookstores because you don't
need to buy books too.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
You go to books to the Ivory Bookstore in Baltimore.
And it's funny because now people are watching what I'm buying,
so you have to be careful.
Speaker 1 (20:40):
So as we talk, this weekend is the National Book
Festival Weekend. This has been going off for about twenty
plus years or so. What actually happens at the National
Book Festival.
Speaker 3 (20:51):
Oh, and it is a festival.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
It's a one day event with over ninety authors now
and it was started by first Lady Laura Bush, when
my predecessor, when she came to Washington, she had started
the Texas Book Festival. That's one of still one of
the largest book festivals in the country. And they started
it about twenty four years ago. And it when you
(21:16):
think about what we have for young people and what
we do for young people. There's an entire section that
is going to feature interactive activities and authors for young people.
Famous authors that we all know, Doris Currents, Goodwin, James McBride,
James Patterson will be there. You'll be there, and it's
(21:37):
just heartening when you we've just talked about illiteracy, and
when you see all of these book lovers that are gathered,
thousands and thousands of people.
Speaker 1 (21:49):
Who presidents of the United States have will come up
and borrow a book, or they don't they're too busy
to do that. They don't call you and say do
you have this book or something.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
Well, we have had some good relations with the White
House in terms of putting books on display for certain things,
and we've been doing more of that recently.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
So what kind of books do you like to read?
Are you non fiction.
Speaker 3 (22:10):
Or I mentioned mysteries.
Speaker 2 (22:12):
A big mystery fan because you feel some sense of satisfaction.
Speaker 3 (22:18):
With it.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
Someone usually gets killed, nobody cares, but and then it's solved.
Speaker 3 (22:25):
So that's very reassuring.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
So let's talk about the Library of Congress in the future.
Let's say ten, twenty thirty years from now. Do you
expect libraries like the Library Congress to be more relevant,
less relevant, more technologically savvy, or about the same as now.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
They're going to be more technologically savvy, but they're also
going to be and we're seeing it now. Even though
there are some challenges in terms of what public libraries
and school libraries offer They're going to be even more relevant.
Speaker 3 (22:57):
Because there's still trusted source of.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
Information and in the world of misinformation, who can you trust?
What are those trusted sources? Libraries are still going to
be places that people look to.
Speaker 1 (23:11):
Thanks for listening to hear more of my interviews. You
can subscribe and download my podcast on Spotify, Apple, or
wherever you listen.
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