June 10, 2024 • 27 mins
Crypto funds are at the beginning of their development journey, with a long way to go until global adoption, says crypto veteran Ophelia Snyder, Co-founder and President of 21Shares. Snyder shares her insights with hosts David Ingles and Rebecca Sin into the crypto markets, where they’re going and why investors should care, in our third instalment of Tiger Money.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
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Speaker 2 (00:18):
Good morning, good afternoon, good evening, and good nights wherever
you're joining us in this vast, beautiful planets.
Speaker 3 (00:26):
Thank you for joining us today.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Welcome to Tiger Money, a Bloomberg podcast about investing stocks, commodities, bonds,
crypto and everything in between, with a focus on ETFs
in Asia and beyond. I'm your host, David Inglass, Sloomberg's
non award winning journalist, chief market editor for the Asia Pacific,
anchor of The China Show, and many many more. I'm
(00:49):
joined by my co pilot, Rebecca Sin She's head of
Asia Pacific ETF Research at Bloomberg Intelligence. Of course, a
prop research department, five hundred analysts working across the world,
covering more more than two thousand companies, ninety industries, and
one hundred market measures. And of course is a kind
reminder for everyone, because this is Tiger Money, this conversation
(01:11):
is strictly non confidential, so if you like what you hear,
don't forget to subscribe, like and of course to share.
Speaker 3 (01:17):
And at this point let me bring in my copilot Rebecca.
Speaker 4 (01:21):
Thank you David. Today we have Ophelia Snyder, who is
the co founder and president of twenty one shares, the
world's leader in providing access to crypto through simple and
easy to use products like ETFs and ETPs. She's won
numerous awards, including Forbes thirty Under thirty and was nominated
as one as Bilan's Top one hundred bankers of Switzerland.
(01:41):
She was born and raised in Italy and the United
States and is fluent in both Italian and French. She
has a degree in marine biology from Stanford and used
to be a documentary filmmaker. Welcome Ophelia, and we're so
excited to have you on Tiger Money.
Speaker 5 (01:56):
Thank you so much for having me. And I have
to say it's quite an introd.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
Yeah, and we noticed Italian and French. That's what half
of the Swiss languages you got there.
Speaker 5 (02:06):
Yes, I'm missing German and Ramach working on the other two.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Okay, Well glass is always half full, right, so I
just had a glance at my screens right now I'm
just looking at prices across the crypto market.
Speaker 3 (02:17):
You guys must be swimming in success.
Speaker 5 (02:20):
Things are going very well. We've seen a lot of
interest and engagement in our products on a global basis,
the US, Europe, Australia. It's been really quite wonderful to
see we hit a all time high in terms of
assets under management for the business. Quite recently. We've passed
(02:40):
seven and a half billion in assets globally, So things
have been going very well.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Okay, so seven and a half billion, what's the hot take?
The short term outlook on the market, and also aum.
Speaker 5 (02:50):
Short term outlook is that we're still really early, which
is something I think people are forgetting right now. They're
seeing the massive assets coming into us product. You know,
some of the most successful ETF launches of all time
individually and certainly the most successful ETF launch of all
time when taken and aggregate. It's still really early. Most
(03:11):
institutions still not in this space, most intermediaries still not
investing in this space. This is a lot of early
adopter money still, which means that the market has quite
a way to run still and we're still in quite
early innings from a market perspective.
Speaker 4 (03:27):
So if we shift geared to the product offering that
you have, you are, if not the only one that
really has a global offering from funds in North America
to Europe to Asia. And so you mentioned you have
more than seven billion in the US. Walk us through
your product offering because I know you guys have everything
from bitcoin, ether, Solana Ripple to even Stellar. You've partnered
(03:48):
up with global Xit in Australia, you have ARC in
the US. So walk us through your product offering because
you do have a very diverse mix and you're one
of the first to this space.
Speaker 5 (03:58):
Yeah, so each market is a little bit We started
our business in Europe. That's by far the broadest product offering,
largely because there's flexibility from regulatory perspective to do so
when we run about forty different products in the European market,
covering single assets, staked assets, index products, shorts. We even
(04:19):
run a product that that's bitcoin and gold in that market.
And what we've really seen there that's been interesting is
they've had these products for quite a bit longer, but
there's a lot more interest in that long tail of
alternatives than you might think. Like, for example, we run
a when I checked this yesterday, nine hundred and forty
million dollars salon a product which is surprising for people,
but there's actually a lot of interest beyond those sort
(04:40):
of top two names. Our first product that we have
a Breck to market hit was actually an index product,
and so I think that's really what we see in
Europe is really a lot of depth of bench, a
lot of interests sort of across the line, and quite
a bit of appetite for alts that may come as
a surprise to people. In the US market, we're managing
just over three and a half billion in assets that
(05:01):
we have six products in market today in the US,
and we obviously have a spot bitcoin product under the
name air KB, but we also offer a digital asset
suite of actively managed crypto products that are futures based
both bitcoin and ethereum, as well as a multi asset strategy,
and then we're obviously working on bringing a spot etherorium
(05:23):
product to market in the US. In Australia we operate
two products, physical Bitcoin and physical ethereum, which we've had
for actually quite a number of years.
Speaker 4 (05:34):
It's definitely a very broad and diverse product offering based
on your global product offering, do you find different investor
demand based on the region, So for instance, there's different
demand coming out of Asia versus Europe versus US, and
do you see any arbitrage between that? So, for instance,
one of the things we try and promote in Hong Kong,
we just launched spot Bitcoin BTF and spot Ethereum BTF
(05:55):
and so a lot of people can now trade that
during Asian hours. But based on your product offering, have
you found any difference in behavior in investors?
Speaker 5 (06:03):
So there are a few differences actually across the board.
It hasn't been as much of a hegemony as you
might think. I think the US market is interesting in
certain in terms of how it's changed the landscape, and
it's not the way most people think from what we've
seen on a global basis. What the US did is
it removed a form of regulatory overhang on the underlying asset.
(06:28):
So the question was what is the US going to
do about bitcoin question mark? And that was an outstanding
issue for a very long time and formed part of
how investors were coming up with their thesis in the sector. Right.
That was a material risk factor in terms of how
they were allocating, how they were thinking about it, what
pricing looked like, how confident they felt in that pricing,
(06:48):
And you should have always had this outstanding risk somewhere
in the part of the pun somewhere in the ether.
And I think that's changed, and now that's also changed
for ethereum, and it's shifting the way we see investor
behavior in other markets, not necessarily purely on it from
a trading perspective, because quite frankly, a lot of people
(07:09):
trade on a lot of different markets, and the market
makers that are offering liquidity in these products have a
tendency to serve out of a global desk, which means
pricing is pretty consistent. It's certainly helpful to have assets
in your local time zone, but you very clearly see
people trading, you know, Asian investors trading US products, American
investors trading products offshore, especially as you get to more
(07:30):
sort of sophisticated investors versus retail. I think the biggest
change has really been that regulatory shift, because now that's
not part of the equation, and it changes what people's
appetite is. What does the size of allocation look like?
How much risk are you really willing to take on? Here.
Speaker 4 (07:44):
So if we touch upon the regulatory framework, do you
think there's any differences between Europe US, Asia? And are
there any feed differences?
Speaker 5 (07:53):
It's night and day different. The European market has a
lot more regulatory clarity for crypto assets than quite frankly,
either than most of Asia and certainly the United States.
And they've had it for years, which means there's a
very well established precedent, like Switzerland has had roles about
what crypto assets are and how to tax them how
I think about them. The arrival of MEKA is really
(08:13):
important from that perspective. There's a certain level of comprehensiveness
that comes with that which is really exciting. The US
is still quite far from that. I think at least
having some clear definitions for bitcoin and now also a
little bit more clarity on ethereum is helpful, but we're
still quite a ways away from something comprehensive. As you
start to look towards Asia, I think Japan has done
a particularly interesting job with how they've done regulations for
(08:34):
crypto assets, and they've done quite a bit of work
around how crypto assets can be offered and managed in country.
It's quite a different setup than other jurisdictions, but there
is something and it's meaningful. I think Hong Kong has
now also really moved in that direction, not just in
the context of btfs, but also virtual asset provider infrastructure
and sort of registration and regulation within Hong Kong is
(08:57):
actually quite interesting from that perspective, step forward in terms
of providing clarity to people who are operating in these spaces,
and I think that's really exciting. I'm hopeful that we're
going to see more of that, especially as you're seeing
some of these big financial centers start to have a
bit more clarity.
Speaker 2 (09:15):
Right, Do we now have a better idea what kind
of asset crypto is simply in terms of how it
price reacts to certain things. And simply the reason I
ask you that is you mentioned earlier adoption. Earlier, there's
a lot more money coming in and I'm wondering what
correlations look like to other financial securities. Right, So, some
of the pushback I get, for example, on our shows
(09:36):
when I talk to your typical byside manager would be
I don't know how to model it. I don't know
if it's a hedge, I don't know if it's a
risk assets and I'm wondering whether this inflow of money
has somewhat helped or hampered that sort of discussion.
Speaker 5 (09:51):
I think it's helped. I think the level of education
is a lot higher, so people are developing like a
specific thesis for the space. I think that's something we
pride ourselves on, is doing a a lot of research
and giving it all away for free, specifically to help
people get a handle on how to think about valuation,
how to think about portfolio allocation, how to think about
how does a sas that behave and what does it mean.
And I think that's something we've been doing since we
(10:13):
started the company. It was actually one of our really
like founding principles, was this idea of education and of
welcoming people into a space that they might not feel
super comfortable with upfront. We've seen a couple of interesting
things in the last few years, like, for example, there
was a correlation between bitcoin and regional bank stocks, actually
in an inverse correlation between bitcoin and regional bank stocks
(10:33):
during the regional banking crisis. That's really interesting. It's actually
actively being used as a hedge in the US. I
think we've seen depending on what's happening with tech. You
can sometimes see some correlation there, but it's not super strong,
and I think one of the interesting things is that
correlation does shift over time. One of the things that
I am seeing in particular, which is really interesting from
that perspective, is that people are starting to understand how
(10:57):
crypto actually works because crypto isn't one thing. Maybe that's
part of where people confused and get lost. If you
take crypto, you should actually split it into three things.
That's a mental model that I use. You've got currencies
like Bitcoin, which are basically a supply and demand function,
and that's drove all currencies. They are valued with a
supply and demand function, and this is obviously a supply
(11:18):
constrained currency model, right. If you think about ethereum, there's
sort of a different category there, and it's actually a
very different product. These look a lot more like commodities,
and you can basically lump all smart contracts, platforms into
this category. And the reason they're commodities, they're actually a
primary input in the production of something else. The best
analogy I've come up with so far is ethereum is
(11:39):
like buying a prepaid phone card, except instead of using
a phone line you're actually using a supercomputer to do
a specific thing and produce a specific thing for you. Now,
what that capacity looks like, How constrained is that capacity?
There's an economy that underlies that, right, which is how
many transactions are people doing? What does utilization look like?
How valuable is that amount of time of the supercomputer's
(12:03):
processing power, How valuable is the network and the economy
that surrounds that. It's sort of like imagine if you
could have purchased a piece of HTTP and like the
protocol level of the Internet. And so what you're saying is,
as Internet utilization goes up, you actually need more units
of what essentially amount to compute. What causes more transactions
to happen. Well, that's actually more final products being used
(12:24):
and more final services being used, right, I mean you
use ethereum to toplay a smart contract. That smart contract
could be used in a video game, it could be
used in a financial process, it could be used for
file storage, which actually brings us to the third category,
which is actual finished products, which is really what people
should be thinking about when they think about tokens.
Speaker 4 (12:42):
Right.
Speaker 5 (12:42):
That is where you get chain link and the use
of on chain data that's where you get everything you've
ever heard of in DeFi, that's where you get gaming
cell phone plans that use decentralized networks. You get, quite
frankly like a very broad range of final products, by
the way, including NFTs. You can buy a bord ap
(13:04):
or a pudge penguin and that's a similar type of
final product in some way. And so once you start
dividing the world like this becomes a lot easier to model,
because actually what you're modeling is either monetary policy and
supply and demand dynamics for a currency, or you're modeling
essentially sublime demand dynamics for a commodity. I think once
you start thinking about things in that context, for me,
(13:25):
it's been probably the easiest mental model for how to
think about these different assets and how to value them.
Speaker 4 (13:30):
So I like how you divided it into three buckets,
so currency, commodities, and the final products. Is that correct?
Speaker 5 (13:36):
Yes?
Speaker 4 (13:37):
So if we focus on the US market, only a
handful of people have filed for a spot ether ETF,
so I guess that goes into your commodity buckets. In
terms of demand, it's ultimately a much smaller market. The
ether market's only four hundred and sixty billion versus the
bitcoin market which is one point four trillion. What do
you expect the demand to be? And do you see
the fee compression happening so similar to when spot bitcoin launch,
(14:00):
you know, there was a few war where do you
see that going.
Speaker 5 (14:03):
Demand for ethereum will look different for a variety of reasons.
And I think the first one which people forget and
they're all holding it up of like, how's it going
to perform relative to bitcoin? But the bitcoin products are
the most successful ETF launch of all time on a
standalone basis. The all four of the top four performing
tickers in terms of asset gathering are all in the
(14:24):
top twenty launches of all time in the ETF space,
four of them that is, including ours, including air canbeen
And that's wonderful, But that is a completely not realistic
bar for an EYTF launch. That is not a thing, right,
that is.
Speaker 3 (14:39):
Not ruined it to some extent.
Speaker 5 (14:43):
This is this is not a real comparison, right, And
I think that's something that the market's just not understanding yet. Yes,
it's going to in all likelihood be less than the
most successful ETF launch of all time by a really
healthy margin. By the way, despite the fact that there
were so many names that launched right so even if
you individually, it's still some of the best launches of
(15:05):
all time, and aggregate, it blows everything out of the water.
That cannot possibly be the bar for success, and I
think that's something that we just need to kind of
move away from as a concept.
Speaker 4 (15:14):
Just to add some color for our audience. There were
eleven ETFs that launched on the exact same time in
January this year, and so to Ophelia's point, it was
one of the most successful launches because of the share,
hype and demand for this product and when the first
filing occurred. It took almost ten years from the first
filing to when the ETF actually launched, so huge demand,
(15:37):
huge interest, and then a lot of people compared that
to the Hong Kong market, and in Hong Kong when
we launched spot bitcoin and ether ETF and was like, oh,
it's not going to be as big as the US
and from a scale perspective, there's still both around one
percent of the etfaum that we have. So for instance,
in Hong Kong, we expected to reach roughly one billion
in assets in the next one to two years, we're
(16:00):
at roughly five hundred million, and so when you compare
different regions, you have to scale it back to the
size of that ETF or ETP market. But it was
one of the most successful launches. And to put that
into comparison, the largest ETF launch globally ever occurred this
year in Taiwan with Yuenta High Dividend ETF that got
five point five billion on the first day, and so
(16:22):
that's a record amount. The second one next to that
is only in the one billion, and so this was
a very successful launch.
Speaker 5 (16:30):
And I think it's hard right, Like there's not a
real comparison. That's part of the issue. So do I
think ETH is going to be less successful than that, Yes.
I would also say that every equity ATF that's going
to launch for the next eighteen to twenty four months
will also be less successful than that. Tell you a lot.
I think Ether is a bit more complicated. I think
one of the other things that's different about Ethereum is
(16:50):
that there's been a lot less investor education people. I'm
talking about bitcoin for a long time, and they've been
doing education with investors for a long time. Ether is
both more complicated to explain, more complicated to understand, and
also just less effort has gone into doing that over
the last five to ten years, and so I think
there's a bigger educational gap, so it's going to take longer.
(17:11):
I think it will be a very successful launch. We
have a very successful European ETHERETF. We also have an
Australian E three ETF. We do see investor demand for
them and quite a bit of a fixcitement and engagement
around that. But it is more complicated because actually what
you're talking about then is really a primary input in
building a new version of the Internet. And then you
get into like, well, why do we need a new
version of the Internet, and what does that look like
and what is the real vision here? And I think
(17:33):
that's a much more complicated discussion. Then we should have
a global currency and a digital version of cold It's
a naturally just more complex discussion. I think it will
all to me be very very good for the crypto industry,
and I also think it will be very very good
for the long term development of this technology to go
through that process and do that education. But we spent
years doing education in Europe before that was something that
(17:54):
really started to resonate, and I think it will take
a bit longer. I still suspect it will do quite well,
but I think it will look very, very different than
the bitcoin launchers.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
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Speaker 2 (18:19):
I guess I said, reminder Troyal listeners, you're listening to
Tiger Money, of course, don't forget to subscribe, like and share.
Speaking of the timing, then is it the right time
to then launch the product or is it a case
of chicken in the egg where it simply will build
the momentum ones that product becomes available and then people
are forced to learn about it just for the lack
(18:40):
of I gets more a better term.
Speaker 5 (18:43):
I think it is the right time for the product
because essentially, you have bitcoin, you have real interest in
crypto assets, you have real development on ethereum networks. There's
really interesting things happening there. So it's also the right
time from an ecosystem perspective of saying, okay, now we're
in a position and to start having that conversation. I
think it's also been a very overall the crypto market
(19:07):
has matured in a really interesting way. It's matured infrastructurally,
it's matured in terms of who the players are. There's
been the leaders of the industry are, you know, speaking
in of a very different way. The types of customers
that we interact with are very different. And I think
that is a product of institutionalization, okay, and sort of
(19:27):
a general leveling up of the space. And I think
that's ultimately a very good thing both for the space
and for investors. And I think it makes it the
right moment in time for that, especially for the US market.
I think, you know, the European market is quite a
bit further ahead, as is the Australian market in terms
of that educational process, but I think it is the
right time for the US oh feeling.
Speaker 3 (19:47):
What else is in is cooking in the kitchen.
Speaker 5 (19:49):
So I think from a product innovation perspective, we're going
to see more products. I think we're going to see
more underlyings, We're going to see leverage and in verse,
we're going to see more sophisticated strategies that We're going
to see more purpose built product for different clients in
different markets. And I think one of the things that
is a real trend here is you're seeing some very
(20:12):
nice global momentum. Right, we're talking about the US spot either,
we're talking about the UK with the first listings of
bitcoin and ether. We're talking about Australia right and ASX
is coming online and you know, we've been managing products
there for years, but this is really exciting. You're seeing
Hong Kong and that was you know, just at the
end of April, you're seeing considerations of adding crypto assets
(20:35):
to use its products in Europe. Right, That global wave
of change to me means normalization in a really interesting way.
You're going to bring crypto assets to normalize and look
a lot like other financial markets, whether they're for commodities
or for currencies or for finished products. You're going to
see more participants, more solutions available to people to access
(20:59):
these products. Access will start to look a lot more
like buying a stock, a bond or anything else. I
think that's really exciting.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
And somehow we keep going back and you know, I
hear you when you keep mentioning here in Europe it's
just a different ballgame. We keep going back to the
fact that I guess regulation determines the size of the playground,
and certainly best practices well established it. And do you
get a sense globally because you mentioned we're now in
a phase where you are getting more places adopting best practices.
Speaker 3 (21:28):
Let's put it that way. Have we reached well first
part of the question. Have we reached as cape trajectory?
You think?
Speaker 2 (21:34):
Is it easier when you deal with different regulators, how
open they seem, the education level of the understanding and
comprehension from regulators, for example about what is about to come.
Do you get as much friction or do you get
less friction this time around?
Speaker 5 (21:50):
I think the friction is going down. I think the
understanding is going up, and I think the realization that
these assets are here to stay, people are using them,
people care about them, that's not going to change. So
I have a very weird little claim to fame, which
is that my mom is the one who actually introduced
me to crypto in twenty thirteen. Usually that interaction goes
the other way. And the reason my mom introduced me
(22:10):
to crypto is because we're watching a documentary about something,
and she told me, you know, MERK spends too much
money hedging. Globalization is here to stay, but geopolitical stability
at this level and everybody getting along on every topic
is a historical anomaly. That is not a stable status quo.
That's not the way the world works. So how do
we keep the benefits of globalization and global trade without
(22:32):
a structural monetary system that everybody can participate in, and
we need one that makes sense. We should have that.
Have you heard of a thing called bitcoin? And I'm like, no,
I have no idea what you're talking about. And we've
gone a very long way from that from it being
this concept of people who have that kind of vision
and understanding to really this being part of everyday dialogue.
And what's interesting with the arrival of all of these
(22:53):
ETFs is my mom totally got the story that makes
perfect sense. That is the story when you listen to
people talk about bitcoin, that is what they talk about today,
and just we're talking about something that had conversation that
happened a decade ago. And the reason my mom she
didn't make an investment at the time because she didn't
feel like the infrastructure was made for her you can't
talk to your wealth manager. You can't you know your
tax filings are going to be different and special, and
(23:16):
you need to open a special kind of account with
a company that you don't have an existing relationship with
and you probably never heard of. Like, that's a very
very fairy high bar for people. The bar of user
existing infrastructure come into the space in a way that
feels friendly and feels normal to you is a very
different proposition. And I think that that shift is actually
changing the way not just regulators, but really everybody interacts
(23:38):
with this space. It makes it just a lot more
friendly and a lot easier and a lot more welcoming.
And that's changing the way these dialogues are happening across
the board.
Speaker 3 (23:46):
I just have a follow up there.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
So, how long after or how soon after did your
mom eventually pull the trigger and buy her first bitcoin?
Speaker 5 (23:53):
My mom bought her first bitcoin when there were products
that would allow her to do so. Okay, and it
took a few year. Yeah, she missed out on quite
a hefty return as a result of that because she
just the infrastructure wasn't meant for her.
Speaker 3 (24:05):
There we go, Well, she.
Speaker 5 (24:06):
Is now in she's now a crypto investor.
Speaker 3 (24:09):
She's okay now, Yeah.
Speaker 5 (24:10):
She's okay now, and actually it's doing okay. She's the
one who inspired me to build the whole company. Me
and my co founder built this company for our moms
who wanted to build products that they would feel comfortable
with and feel good about. So that's actually why twenty
one Chuars exists in the first place.
Speaker 3 (24:24):
Now, that's a way to make your mom proud in
more ways than.
Speaker 4 (24:26):
Why her mom is actually in a lot of the
advertisement of twenty one shares that there's videos on what
is bitcoin and her mom is featured in it.
Speaker 5 (24:36):
Yes, So if you have any interest in I hearing
my mom talk about her experiences coming into crypto and
why she did the things she did, she can tell
you in her own words. She was kind enough to
come and actually talk to us about all of these
things and how she conceives it this market.
Speaker 4 (24:51):
So, what level do you think bitcoin will end at
this year, five years, ten years? Moving on to the
fun stuff.
Speaker 5 (24:56):
Now, ooh. I try to not make price predictions usually,
but my view is we're so early in the adoption cycle. There'
essentially no intermediaries in the space. There's no solicit demand.
Everything is unsolicited today. You are missing still like accessibility
for a few key geographies. You're missing accessibility on a
few key platforms still today, it's just so early, and
(25:20):
it's also very early in the impact of the having.
The impact of that having is similar to a rate
cut or a rate increase in regular economy. It takes
a while for those things to be reflected. So I
think we're still quite early in this market cycle and
have a ways to go.
Speaker 3 (25:35):
We noticed that the stuff you studied in school.
Speaker 2 (25:38):
I would say, well, on paper, it doesn't seem to
be anything related to what you do, but I mean
marine biology.
Speaker 3 (25:44):
You know, we know more about space that we know
more about what goes on underneath the oceans, And in
any ways, you are pushing the envelope really of the
unknown in what you do best.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
Career advice, Is there anything you learned in school that
is applicable right now? Just give us what's in your
head right now?
Speaker 5 (25:59):
Actually is yes, a lot. I think what I learned
in school that was of value as systems based thinking,
any kind of interdisciplinary science like what I studied. What
you end up with is you need to be able
to connect disparate systems and think about things that way,
and that to me was the most useful thing I
learned in school was how to think and how to
(26:20):
organize information. And I think that I use that every
single day.
Speaker 4 (26:26):
And with that, thank you so much, Ophelia for your
time today. Thank you for sharing your wonderful insights. You
gave us a lot to ponderize. Especially liked how you
sorted the virtual assets space into three buckets and how
they're all different products.
Speaker 5 (26:39):
Well, thank you so much for having me. This is fun.
Speaker 3 (26:42):
Thank you all right, So thank you to everyone who
joined us today.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
Are listening, of course to the Tiger Money podcast all
things investing, funds, financial markets in Asia and beyond.
Speaker 3 (26:52):
Literally we went under the ocean and up in disguise
just there.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
If you like what you hear, do not forget to subscribe,
please like, please share, not with your friends, with your mom,
or otherwise.
Speaker 3 (27:02):
Until next time.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
Of course, you can find us inside the Bloomberg terminal
or on LinkedIn.
Speaker 3 (27:07):
We look forward forward to hearing from all of you.
This podcast was produced by Clara Chan
This podcast is brought to you by HKX, Asia's ETF marketplace. Well,
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Speaker 2 (00:18):
Good morning, good afternoon, good evening, and good nights wherever
you're joining us in this vast, beautiful planets.
Speaker 3 (00:26):
Thank you for joining us today.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Welcome to Tiger Money, a Bloomberg podcast about investing stocks, commodities, bonds,
crypto and everything in between, with a focus on ETFs
in Asia and beyond. I'm your host, David Inglass, Sloomberg's
non award winning journalist, chief market editor for the Asia Pacific,
anchor of The China Show, and many many more. I'm
(00:49):
joined by my co pilot, Rebecca Sin She's head of
Asia Pacific ETF Research at Bloomberg Intelligence. Of course, a
prop research department, five hundred analysts working across the world,
covering more more than two thousand companies, ninety industries, and
one hundred market measures. And of course is a kind
reminder for everyone, because this is Tiger Money, this conversation
(01:11):
is strictly non confidential, so if you like what you hear,
don't forget to subscribe, like and of course to share.
Speaker 3 (01:17):
And at this point let me bring in my copilot Rebecca.
Speaker 4 (01:21):
Thank you David. Today we have Ophelia Snyder, who is
the co founder and president of twenty one shares, the
world's leader in providing access to crypto through simple and
easy to use products like ETFs and ETPs. She's won
numerous awards, including Forbes thirty Under thirty and was nominated
as one as Bilan's Top one hundred bankers of Switzerland.
(01:41):
She was born and raised in Italy and the United
States and is fluent in both Italian and French. She
has a degree in marine biology from Stanford and used
to be a documentary filmmaker. Welcome Ophelia, and we're so
excited to have you on Tiger Money.
Speaker 5 (01:56):
Thank you so much for having me. And I have
to say it's quite an introd.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
Yeah, and we noticed Italian and French. That's what half
of the Swiss languages you got there.
Speaker 5 (02:06):
Yes, I'm missing German and Ramach working on the other two.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
Okay, Well glass is always half full, right, so I
just had a glance at my screens right now I'm
just looking at prices across the crypto market.
Speaker 3 (02:17):
You guys must be swimming in success.
Speaker 5 (02:20):
Things are going very well. We've seen a lot of
interest and engagement in our products on a global basis,
the US, Europe, Australia. It's been really quite wonderful to
see we hit a all time high in terms of
assets under management for the business. Quite recently. We've passed
(02:40):
seven and a half billion in assets globally, So things
have been going very well.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Okay, so seven and a half billion, what's the hot take?
The short term outlook on the market, and also aum.
Speaker 5 (02:50):
Short term outlook is that we're still really early, which
is something I think people are forgetting right now. They're
seeing the massive assets coming into us product. You know,
some of the most successful ETF launches of all time
individually and certainly the most successful ETF launch of all
time when taken and aggregate. It's still really early. Most
(03:11):
institutions still not in this space, most intermediaries still not
investing in this space. This is a lot of early
adopter money still, which means that the market has quite
a way to run still and we're still in quite
early innings from a market perspective.
Speaker 4 (03:27):
So if we shift geared to the product offering that
you have, you are, if not the only one that
really has a global offering from funds in North America
to Europe to Asia. And so you mentioned you have
more than seven billion in the US. Walk us through
your product offering because I know you guys have everything
from bitcoin, ether, Solana Ripple to even Stellar. You've partnered
(03:48):
up with global Xit in Australia, you have ARC in
the US. So walk us through your product offering because
you do have a very diverse mix and you're one
of the first to this space.
Speaker 5 (03:58):
Yeah, so each market is a little bit We started
our business in Europe. That's by far the broadest product offering,
largely because there's flexibility from regulatory perspective to do so
when we run about forty different products in the European market,
covering single assets, staked assets, index products, shorts. We even
(04:19):
run a product that that's bitcoin and gold in that market.
And what we've really seen there that's been interesting is
they've had these products for quite a bit longer, but
there's a lot more interest in that long tail of
alternatives than you might think. Like, for example, we run
a when I checked this yesterday, nine hundred and forty
million dollars salon a product which is surprising for people,
but there's actually a lot of interest beyond those sort
(04:40):
of top two names. Our first product that we have
a Breck to market hit was actually an index product,
and so I think that's really what we see in
Europe is really a lot of depth of bench, a
lot of interests sort of across the line, and quite
a bit of appetite for alts that may come as
a surprise to people. In the US market, we're managing
just over three and a half billion in assets that
(05:01):
we have six products in market today in the US,
and we obviously have a spot bitcoin product under the
name air KB, but we also offer a digital asset
suite of actively managed crypto products that are futures based
both bitcoin and ethereum, as well as a multi asset strategy,
and then we're obviously working on bringing a spot etherorium
(05:23):
product to market in the US. In Australia we operate
two products, physical Bitcoin and physical ethereum, which we've had
for actually quite a number of years.
Speaker 4 (05:34):
It's definitely a very broad and diverse product offering based
on your global product offering, do you find different investor
demand based on the region, So for instance, there's different
demand coming out of Asia versus Europe versus US, and
do you see any arbitrage between that? So, for instance,
one of the things we try and promote in Hong Kong,
we just launched spot Bitcoin BTF and spot Ethereum BTF
(05:55):
and so a lot of people can now trade that
during Asian hours. But based on your product offering, have
you found any difference in behavior in investors?
Speaker 5 (06:03):
So there are a few differences actually across the board.
It hasn't been as much of a hegemony as you
might think. I think the US market is interesting in
certain in terms of how it's changed the landscape, and
it's not the way most people think from what we've
seen on a global basis. What the US did is
it removed a form of regulatory overhang on the underlying asset.
(06:28):
So the question was what is the US going to
do about bitcoin question mark? And that was an outstanding
issue for a very long time and formed part of
how investors were coming up with their thesis in the sector. Right.
That was a material risk factor in terms of how
they were allocating, how they were thinking about it, what
pricing looked like, how confident they felt in that pricing,
(06:48):
And you should have always had this outstanding risk somewhere
in the part of the pun somewhere in the ether.
And I think that's changed, and now that's also changed
for ethereum, and it's shifting the way we see investor
behavior in other markets, not necessarily purely on it from
a trading perspective, because quite frankly, a lot of people
(07:09):
trade on a lot of different markets, and the market
makers that are offering liquidity in these products have a
tendency to serve out of a global desk, which means
pricing is pretty consistent. It's certainly helpful to have assets
in your local time zone, but you very clearly see
people trading, you know, Asian investors trading US products, American
investors trading products offshore, especially as you get to more
(07:30):
sort of sophisticated investors versus retail. I think the biggest
change has really been that regulatory shift, because now that's
not part of the equation, and it changes what people's
appetite is. What does the size of allocation look like?
How much risk are you really willing to take on? Here.
Speaker 4 (07:44):
So if we touch upon the regulatory framework, do you
think there's any differences between Europe US, Asia? And are
there any feed differences?
Speaker 5 (07:53):
It's night and day different. The European market has a
lot more regulatory clarity for crypto assets than quite frankly,
either than most of Asia and certainly the United States.
And they've had it for years, which means there's a
very well established precedent, like Switzerland has had roles about
what crypto assets are and how to tax them how
I think about them. The arrival of MEKA is really
(08:13):
important from that perspective. There's a certain level of comprehensiveness
that comes with that which is really exciting. The US
is still quite far from that. I think at least
having some clear definitions for bitcoin and now also a
little bit more clarity on ethereum is helpful, but we're
still quite a ways away from something comprehensive. As you
start to look towards Asia, I think Japan has done
a particularly interesting job with how they've done regulations for
(08:34):
crypto assets, and they've done quite a bit of work
around how crypto assets can be offered and managed in country.
It's quite a different setup than other jurisdictions, but there
is something and it's meaningful. I think Hong Kong has
now also really moved in that direction, not just in
the context of btfs, but also virtual asset provider infrastructure
and sort of registration and regulation within Hong Kong is
(08:57):
actually quite interesting from that perspective, step forward in terms
of providing clarity to people who are operating in these spaces,
and I think that's really exciting. I'm hopeful that we're
going to see more of that, especially as you're seeing
some of these big financial centers start to have a
bit more clarity.
Speaker 2 (09:15):
Right, Do we now have a better idea what kind
of asset crypto is simply in terms of how it
price reacts to certain things. And simply the reason I
ask you that is you mentioned earlier adoption. Earlier, there's
a lot more money coming in and I'm wondering what
correlations look like to other financial securities. Right, So, some
of the pushback I get, for example, on our shows
(09:36):
when I talk to your typical byside manager would be
I don't know how to model it. I don't know
if it's a hedge, I don't know if it's a
risk assets and I'm wondering whether this inflow of money
has somewhat helped or hampered that sort of discussion.
Speaker 5 (09:51):
I think it's helped. I think the level of education
is a lot higher, so people are developing like a
specific thesis for the space. I think that's something we
pride ourselves on, is doing a a lot of research
and giving it all away for free, specifically to help
people get a handle on how to think about valuation,
how to think about portfolio allocation, how to think about
how does a sas that behave and what does it mean.
And I think that's something we've been doing since we
(10:13):
started the company. It was actually one of our really
like founding principles, was this idea of education and of
welcoming people into a space that they might not feel
super comfortable with upfront. We've seen a couple of interesting
things in the last few years, like, for example, there
was a correlation between bitcoin and regional bank stocks, actually
in an inverse correlation between bitcoin and regional bank stocks
(10:33):
during the regional banking crisis. That's really interesting. It's actually
actively being used as a hedge in the US. I
think we've seen depending on what's happening with tech. You
can sometimes see some correlation there, but it's not super strong,
and I think one of the interesting things is that
correlation does shift over time. One of the things that
I am seeing in particular, which is really interesting from
that perspective, is that people are starting to understand how
(10:57):
crypto actually works because crypto isn't one thing. Maybe that's
part of where people confused and get lost. If you
take crypto, you should actually split it into three things.
That's a mental model that I use. You've got currencies
like Bitcoin, which are basically a supply and demand function,
and that's drove all currencies. They are valued with a
supply and demand function, and this is obviously a supply
(11:18):
constrained currency model, right. If you think about ethereum, there's
sort of a different category there, and it's actually a
very different product. These look a lot more like commodities,
and you can basically lump all smart contracts, platforms into
this category. And the reason they're commodities, they're actually a
primary input in the production of something else. The best
analogy I've come up with so far is ethereum is
(11:39):
like buying a prepaid phone card, except instead of using
a phone line you're actually using a supercomputer to do
a specific thing and produce a specific thing for you. Now,
what that capacity looks like, How constrained is that capacity?
There's an economy that underlies that, right, which is how
many transactions are people doing? What does utilization look like?
How valuable is that amount of time of the supercomputer's
(12:03):
processing power, How valuable is the network and the economy
that surrounds that. It's sort of like imagine if you
could have purchased a piece of HTTP and like the
protocol level of the Internet. And so what you're saying is,
as Internet utilization goes up, you actually need more units
of what essentially amount to compute. What causes more transactions
to happen. Well, that's actually more final products being used
(12:24):
and more final services being used, right, I mean you
use ethereum to toplay a smart contract. That smart contract
could be used in a video game, it could be
used in a financial process, it could be used for
file storage, which actually brings us to the third category,
which is actual finished products, which is really what people
should be thinking about when they think about tokens.
Speaker 4 (12:42):
Right.
Speaker 5 (12:42):
That is where you get chain link and the use
of on chain data that's where you get everything you've
ever heard of in DeFi, that's where you get gaming
cell phone plans that use decentralized networks. You get, quite
frankly like a very broad range of final products, by
the way, including NFTs. You can buy a bord ap
(13:04):
or a pudge penguin and that's a similar type of
final product in some way. And so once you start
dividing the world like this becomes a lot easier to model,
because actually what you're modeling is either monetary policy and
supply and demand dynamics for a currency, or you're modeling
essentially sublime demand dynamics for a commodity. I think once
you start thinking about things in that context, for me,
(13:25):
it's been probably the easiest mental model for how to
think about these different assets and how to value them.
Speaker 4 (13:30):
So I like how you divided it into three buckets,
so currency, commodities, and the final products. Is that correct?
Speaker 5 (13:36):
Yes?
Speaker 4 (13:37):
So if we focus on the US market, only a
handful of people have filed for a spot ether ETF,
so I guess that goes into your commodity buckets. In
terms of demand, it's ultimately a much smaller market. The
ether market's only four hundred and sixty billion versus the
bitcoin market which is one point four trillion. What do
you expect the demand to be? And do you see
the fee compression happening so similar to when spot bitcoin launch,
(14:00):
you know, there was a few war where do you
see that going.
Speaker 5 (14:03):
Demand for ethereum will look different for a variety of reasons.
And I think the first one which people forget and
they're all holding it up of like, how's it going
to perform relative to bitcoin? But the bitcoin products are
the most successful ETF launch of all time on a
standalone basis. The all four of the top four performing
tickers in terms of asset gathering are all in the
(14:24):
top twenty launches of all time in the ETF space,
four of them that is, including ours, including air canbeen
And that's wonderful, But that is a completely not realistic
bar for an EYTF launch. That is not a thing, right,
that is.
Speaker 3 (14:39):
Not ruined it to some extent.
Speaker 5 (14:43):
This is this is not a real comparison, right, And
I think that's something that the market's just not understanding yet. Yes,
it's going to in all likelihood be less than the
most successful ETF launch of all time by a really
healthy margin. By the way, despite the fact that there
were so many names that launched right so even if
you individually, it's still some of the best launches of
(15:05):
all time, and aggregate, it blows everything out of the water.
That cannot possibly be the bar for success, and I
think that's something that we just need to kind of
move away from as a concept.
Speaker 4 (15:14):
Just to add some color for our audience. There were
eleven ETFs that launched on the exact same time in
January this year, and so to Ophelia's point, it was
one of the most successful launches because of the share,
hype and demand for this product and when the first
filing occurred. It took almost ten years from the first
filing to when the ETF actually launched, so huge demand,
(15:37):
huge interest, and then a lot of people compared that
to the Hong Kong market, and in Hong Kong when
we launched spot bitcoin and ether ETF and was like, oh,
it's not going to be as big as the US
and from a scale perspective, there's still both around one
percent of the etfaum that we have. So for instance,
in Hong Kong, we expected to reach roughly one billion
in assets in the next one to two years, we're
(16:00):
at roughly five hundred million, and so when you compare
different regions, you have to scale it back to the
size of that ETF or ETP market. But it was
one of the most successful launches. And to put that
into comparison, the largest ETF launch globally ever occurred this
year in Taiwan with Yuenta High Dividend ETF that got
five point five billion on the first day, and so
(16:22):
that's a record amount. The second one next to that
is only in the one billion, and so this was
a very successful launch.
Speaker 5 (16:30):
And I think it's hard right, Like there's not a
real comparison. That's part of the issue. So do I
think ETH is going to be less successful than that, Yes.
I would also say that every equity ATF that's going
to launch for the next eighteen to twenty four months
will also be less successful than that. Tell you a lot.
I think Ether is a bit more complicated. I think
one of the other things that's different about Ethereum is
(16:50):
that there's been a lot less investor education people. I'm
talking about bitcoin for a long time, and they've been
doing education with investors for a long time. Ether is
both more complicated to explain, more complicated to understand, and
also just less effort has gone into doing that over
the last five to ten years, and so I think
there's a bigger educational gap, so it's going to take longer.
(17:11):
I think it will be a very successful launch. We
have a very successful European ETHERETF. We also have an
Australian E three ETF. We do see investor demand for
them and quite a bit of a fixcitement and engagement
around that. But it is more complicated because actually what
you're talking about then is really a primary input in
building a new version of the Internet. And then you
get into like, well, why do we need a new
version of the Internet, and what does that look like
and what is the real vision here? And I think
(17:33):
that's a much more complicated discussion. Then we should have
a global currency and a digital version of cold It's
a naturally just more complex discussion. I think it will
all to me be very very good for the crypto industry,
and I also think it will be very very good
for the long term development of this technology to go
through that process and do that education. But we spent
years doing education in Europe before that was something that
(17:54):
really started to resonate, and I think it will take
a bit longer. I still suspect it will do quite well,
but I think it will look very, very different than
the bitcoin launchers.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
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Speaker 2 (18:19):
I guess I said, reminder Troyal listeners, you're listening to
Tiger Money, of course, don't forget to subscribe, like and share.
Speaking of the timing, then is it the right time
to then launch the product or is it a case
of chicken in the egg where it simply will build
the momentum ones that product becomes available and then people
are forced to learn about it just for the lack
(18:40):
of I gets more a better term.
Speaker 5 (18:43):
I think it is the right time for the product
because essentially, you have bitcoin, you have real interest in
crypto assets, you have real development on ethereum networks. There's
really interesting things happening there. So it's also the right
time from an ecosystem perspective of saying, okay, now we're
in a position and to start having that conversation. I
think it's also been a very overall the crypto market
(19:07):
has matured in a really interesting way. It's matured infrastructurally,
it's matured in terms of who the players are. There's
been the leaders of the industry are, you know, speaking
in of a very different way. The types of customers
that we interact with are very different. And I think
that is a product of institutionalization, okay, and sort of
(19:27):
a general leveling up of the space. And I think
that's ultimately a very good thing both for the space
and for investors. And I think it makes it the
right moment in time for that, especially for the US market.
I think, you know, the European market is quite a
bit further ahead, as is the Australian market in terms
of that educational process, but I think it is the
right time for the US oh feeling.
Speaker 3 (19:47):
What else is in is cooking in the kitchen.
Speaker 5 (19:49):
So I think from a product innovation perspective, we're going
to see more products. I think we're going to see
more underlyings, We're going to see leverage and in verse,
we're going to see more sophisticated strategies that We're going
to see more purpose built product for different clients in
different markets. And I think one of the things that
is a real trend here is you're seeing some very
(20:12):
nice global momentum. Right, we're talking about the US spot either,
we're talking about the UK with the first listings of
bitcoin and ether. We're talking about Australia right and ASX
is coming online and you know, we've been managing products
there for years, but this is really exciting. You're seeing
Hong Kong and that was you know, just at the
end of April, you're seeing considerations of adding crypto assets
(20:35):
to use its products in Europe. Right, That global wave
of change to me means normalization in a really interesting way.
You're going to bring crypto assets to normalize and look
a lot like other financial markets, whether they're for commodities
or for currencies or for finished products. You're going to
see more participants, more solutions available to people to access
(20:59):
these products. Access will start to look a lot more
like buying a stock, a bond or anything else. I
think that's really exciting.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
And somehow we keep going back and you know, I
hear you when you keep mentioning here in Europe it's
just a different ballgame. We keep going back to the
fact that I guess regulation determines the size of the playground,
and certainly best practices well established it. And do you
get a sense globally because you mentioned we're now in
a phase where you are getting more places adopting best practices.
Speaker 3 (21:28):
Let's put it that way. Have we reached well first
part of the question. Have we reached as cape trajectory?
You think?
Speaker 2 (21:34):
Is it easier when you deal with different regulators, how
open they seem, the education level of the understanding and
comprehension from regulators, for example about what is about to come.
Do you get as much friction or do you get
less friction this time around?
Speaker 5 (21:50):
I think the friction is going down. I think the
understanding is going up, and I think the realization that
these assets are here to stay, people are using them,
people care about them, that's not going to change. So
I have a very weird little claim to fame, which
is that my mom is the one who actually introduced
me to crypto in twenty thirteen. Usually that interaction goes
the other way. And the reason my mom introduced me
(22:10):
to crypto is because we're watching a documentary about something,
and she told me, you know, MERK spends too much
money hedging. Globalization is here to stay, but geopolitical stability
at this level and everybody getting along on every topic
is a historical anomaly. That is not a stable status quo.
That's not the way the world works. So how do
we keep the benefits of globalization and global trade without
(22:32):
a structural monetary system that everybody can participate in, and
we need one that makes sense. We should have that.
Have you heard of a thing called bitcoin? And I'm like, no,
I have no idea what you're talking about. And we've
gone a very long way from that from it being
this concept of people who have that kind of vision
and understanding to really this being part of everyday dialogue.
And what's interesting with the arrival of all of these
(22:53):
ETFs is my mom totally got the story that makes
perfect sense. That is the story when you listen to
people talk about bitcoin, that is what they talk about today,
and just we're talking about something that had conversation that
happened a decade ago. And the reason my mom she
didn't make an investment at the time because she didn't
feel like the infrastructure was made for her you can't
talk to your wealth manager. You can't you know your
tax filings are going to be different and special, and
(23:16):
you need to open a special kind of account with
a company that you don't have an existing relationship with
and you probably never heard of. Like, that's a very
very fairy high bar for people. The bar of user
existing infrastructure come into the space in a way that
feels friendly and feels normal to you is a very
different proposition. And I think that that shift is actually
changing the way not just regulators, but really everybody interacts
(23:38):
with this space. It makes it just a lot more
friendly and a lot easier and a lot more welcoming.
And that's changing the way these dialogues are happening across
the board.
Speaker 3 (23:46):
I just have a follow up there.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
So, how long after or how soon after did your
mom eventually pull the trigger and buy her first bitcoin?
Speaker 5 (23:53):
My mom bought her first bitcoin when there were products
that would allow her to do so. Okay, and it
took a few year. Yeah, she missed out on quite
a hefty return as a result of that because she
just the infrastructure wasn't meant for her.
Speaker 3 (24:05):
There we go, Well, she.
Speaker 5 (24:06):
Is now in she's now a crypto investor.
Speaker 3 (24:09):
She's okay now, Yeah.
Speaker 5 (24:10):
She's okay now, and actually it's doing okay. She's the
one who inspired me to build the whole company. Me
and my co founder built this company for our moms
who wanted to build products that they would feel comfortable
with and feel good about. So that's actually why twenty
one Chuars exists in the first place.
Speaker 3 (24:24):
Now, that's a way to make your mom proud in
more ways than.
Speaker 4 (24:26):
Why her mom is actually in a lot of the
advertisement of twenty one shares that there's videos on what
is bitcoin and her mom is featured in it.
Speaker 5 (24:36):
Yes, So if you have any interest in I hearing
my mom talk about her experiences coming into crypto and
why she did the things she did, she can tell
you in her own words. She was kind enough to
come and actually talk to us about all of these
things and how she conceives it this market.
Speaker 4 (24:51):
So, what level do you think bitcoin will end at
this year, five years, ten years? Moving on to the
fun stuff.
Speaker 5 (24:56):
Now, ooh. I try to not make price predictions usually,
but my view is we're so early in the adoption cycle. There'
essentially no intermediaries in the space. There's no solicit demand.
Everything is unsolicited today. You are missing still like accessibility
for a few key geographies. You're missing accessibility on a
few key platforms still today, it's just so early, and
(25:20):
it's also very early in the impact of the having.
The impact of that having is similar to a rate
cut or a rate increase in regular economy. It takes
a while for those things to be reflected. So I
think we're still quite early in this market cycle and
have a ways to go.
Speaker 3 (25:35):
We noticed that the stuff you studied in school.
Speaker 2 (25:38):
I would say, well, on paper, it doesn't seem to
be anything related to what you do, but I mean
marine biology.
Speaker 3 (25:44):
You know, we know more about space that we know
more about what goes on underneath the oceans, And in
any ways, you are pushing the envelope really of the
unknown in what you do best.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
Career advice, Is there anything you learned in school that
is applicable right now? Just give us what's in your
head right now?
Speaker 5 (25:59):
Actually is yes, a lot. I think what I learned
in school that was of value as systems based thinking,
any kind of interdisciplinary science like what I studied. What
you end up with is you need to be able
to connect disparate systems and think about things that way,
and that to me was the most useful thing I
learned in school was how to think and how to
(26:20):
organize information. And I think that I use that every
single day.
Speaker 4 (26:26):
And with that, thank you so much, Ophelia for your
time today. Thank you for sharing your wonderful insights. You
gave us a lot to ponderize. Especially liked how you
sorted the virtual assets space into three buckets and how
they're all different products.
Speaker 5 (26:39):
Well, thank you so much for having me. This is fun.
Speaker 3 (26:42):
Thank you all right, So thank you to everyone who
joined us today.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
Are listening, of course to the Tiger Money podcast all
things investing, funds, financial markets in Asia and beyond.
Speaker 3 (26:52):
Literally we went under the ocean and up in disguise
just there.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
If you like what you hear, do not forget to subscribe,
please like, please share, not with your friends, with your mom,
or otherwise.
Speaker 3 (27:02):
Until next time.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
Of course, you can find us inside the Bloomberg terminal
or on LinkedIn.
Speaker 3 (27:07):
We look forward forward to hearing from all of you.
This podcast was produced by Clara Chan
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