February 24, 2025 • 15 mins
The results in the latest Closing the Gap report are grim.
Only five of the 19 targets are on track, and Indigenous incarceration rates are rising. But is the policy itself part of the problem?
Critics like independent senator Lidia Thorpe argue that Closing the Gap hasn’t delivered change and should be scrapped.
Meanwhile, the government has announced hundreds of millions in new spending, including major investments in remote communities and initiatives to reduce grocery prices in the Northern Territory.
Today, Minister for Indigenous Australians Malarndirri McCarthy on whether Closing the Gap is still working.
Socials: Stay in touch with us on Twitter and Instagram
Guest: Minister for Indigenous Australians, Malarndirri McCarthy.
Photo: AAP Image/Amanda Parkinson
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
From Sworts Media. I'm Daniel James. This is seven am.
When the latest report on Closing the Gap was released.
The results were grim. Only five of the nineteen targets
are on track and Indigenous incarceration rates are rising. But
it's the policy itself part of the problem. Critics like
(00:24):
Senator Lydia Thorpe say Closing the Gap hasn't delivered change
and should be scrapped. Meanwhile, Minister for Indigenous Australians Mellendarie
McCarthy has announced hundreds of millions in new spending, including
major investments in remote communities and cheaper grocery prices in
the Northern Territory. Today, Minister Melandary McCarthy on whether Closing
(00:45):
the Gap is still working. It's Tuesday, February twenty five. Minister,
welcome to seven am.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Hello Daniel, lovely to be here and hello to all
your listeners.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
You took on the Indigenous Affairs portfolio in July last
year when your predecessor, Linda Bernie stepped down, and this
was of course not long after the country voted resemblingly
against a Voice to Parliament. What was it like for
you to step into that role at that particular moment.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Well, it was certainly an absolute honor to be able
to step into the role Daniel, especially when I'd worked
so closely with Linda Bernie. It's of course was difficult
with the outcome of the referendum, that I was fairly
realistic in the sense that the Australian people have voted
and their decision was no as disappointing as that might be.
(01:40):
We accept the decision and my role was to actually
move us on and forward and to keep reaching out
to our communities and our First Nations families and remind
ourselves so we're resilient people. We've had many disappointments over
many centuries and we're still here and we're still very strong.
And the first thing I wanted to do when I
(02:02):
became Minister was to reach out to my opponents, especially
those who were vehemently against the Yes vote, to invite
them to rise above using Indigenous affairs as a political football.
And that was a real focus for me and continues
to be.
Speaker 3 (02:20):
Of you when you're supposed to hear about how Australia
is closing the gap between the experiences and livelihoods of
Indigenous and non Indigenous Australians. But you're here today that
only five closing the Gap targets are on track.
Speaker 4 (02:34):
One target is to reduce the rate of Indigenous Australians
held in incarceration by fifteen percent. Instead, that number is
growing and experts say there needs to be greater focus
on alternative justice.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
Minister, most of the closed the Gap targets are not
on track. The rate of suicide amongst Indigenous Australians is increasing,
the rate of children and out of home care is increasing.
More Indigenous people are being sent to prison, and Indigenous
Australians don't well before our time. You've been a member
of Parliament in the territory, you've been a senator since
twenty sixteen. You spent time in these communities where these
(03:09):
facts and figures are played out in real life. Why
aren't we seeing change?
Speaker 2 (03:14):
We are seeing change, Daniel, We're just not seeing it
at the pace that we'd like to see it at.
And I do commend the Aboriginal community organizations across the
country who are working with me to implement that change.
In particular, the Aboriginal community medical services across the country
have led the way in terms of local empowerment self
(03:36):
determination to try and improve the lives of First Nations families.
So we've got through the closing the gap. We have
eighty members of the Coalition of Peaks who represent eight
hundred Aboriginal and trrostrate or organizations across the country. That's
a phenomenal number. They want the governments of each state
(03:57):
and territory and the Commonwealth to move more quickly on
assisting with the areas that they have already identified. The
problems exactly what you've mentioned with the high rates of suicide.
So our plan for twenty twenty five is to see
more psychologists, Aboriginal trained psychologists in that area to be
(04:19):
able to assist in subsidizing that. We've been able to
put out five hundred Aboriginal health workers across the country
and offer that in traineeships. There are over three hundred
who've accepted that. We've been able to look at the
First Nation's Children's Commissional role and establish that and that
(04:39):
person is going to be very responsible for interacting with
state and territories about the high rates of removal of
our kids. It's just not good enough.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
What's it like to dedicate your life to this work
and see some of these outcomes actually go backwards.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
I'm a very passionate person in terms of wanting to
see the improvement for people whose lives are in poverty,
and it largely happens to be First Nations families, but
I'm mindful that there are ordinary strayans who are in
exactly that same sense of poverty and wanting to rise
above the despair. What I've found, Daniel, is a lot
(05:18):
of this is working with the people where there are
pockets of such goodness and hope and energy and enthusiasm.
And I am determined to work with people where I
can see we have got the runs on the board.
I find often as I travel across the country that
those people who are achieving, they are not recognized for
(05:40):
the work they're doing. And if we can get behind
the people who do have the answers, and they are
largely our Aboriginal community organizations, largely our Aboriginal elders, they
know the answers and the solutions to a lot of
these problems and we must get behind them. And that
is the approach I take in wanting to improve the
lives for First Nations families across Australia.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
Is the disadvantage that original people are facing across the country.
Is that a class issue as much as it is
a race issue.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
Well, it's a poverty issue, isn't it. Really If you
look at the issues that people ask for. They want
good homes, they want houses to live in. They want
to be able to have a job that they can
get up and go to and feel respected, that there's
dignity in the work that they do, and that they're
paid at a rate that they can afford to look
after their families, that they have long service leave, superannuation,
(06:32):
holiday pay. This is important to me and I have
been trying to roll out a thousand jobs in the
ranger space, seven hundred and seventy identify positions for First
Nations women. But I want to see through the remote
jobs program Daniel, the rolling out of three thousand jobs.
I've been talking to workers in Kunnanarah, the is Kimberly
(06:56):
and then in Central Australia around the town camps. They
have been really really pleased with the rise in their
pay and the fact that they have dignity in the
workspace and the fact that they can look after their families.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
After the break. Why the Minister is spending hundreds of
millions of dollars on more police.
Speaker 5 (07:31):
So this is about doing better. This funding will deliver
essential services for remote communities, including policing, women's safety, children's health,
education and alcohol harm reduction.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
Minsty you just announced a big package for remote communities
eight hundred and forty two million dollars, but two hundred
and five million of that is ear marked for policing
in remote Northern Territory communities. The territory already has more
police per capita than anywhere else in the Why do
those communities need more police?
Speaker 2 (08:03):
I would look at that statistic in terms of more
policing per capita. What I would say is this, Daniel,
that when we have the largest case of family and
domestic violence, largely here in the Northern Territory, the one
thing I do get when I travel our communities is
where are the police? Where is the support for our
women and families? So I beg to differ there in
(08:27):
terms of those statistics. And I know that there's been
a large injection of police to Alice Springs. We've also
had people from the police force in South Australia come
up under the call of the Chief Minister of the
Northern Territory. So I would say that the safety of
women and children is paramount. But at the same time,
the Commissioner of Police who at Gama last year apologized
(08:51):
to First Nations families for the history of the police
force relationship with Aboriginal people in the Northern Territory. Now
I trust that that is a beginning, a new beginning
under the Police Commissioner in terms of wanting to see
more Aberiginal tristraight on the people in the police force
to have a better understanding in terms of the many
(09:13):
languages we have. It's an imperfect system and often a
system that disappoints, but we cannot give up and we
must not give up on wanting to ensure the safety
of our families in the Northern Territory.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
What do you think is a good outcome from that
investment and what do you think it's a good idea well.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
Community policing is something that I think has always been
talked about when you do it at the local level,
and there are many good examples across the country, not
just here in the Northern Territory. When you do have
community policing at the local level, where you have Aboriginal community,
police officers involved, Aboriginal elders involved, working in a constructive way,
(09:54):
then they make big differences in our community.
Speaker 1 (09:57):
I guess the concerned Minister is sort of in a
recent Productivity Commission report and closing the gap is that
there is a rise in the number of Indigenous children
being jailed around the country. Are you concerned that more
policing will lead to more children being locked up?
Speaker 2 (10:12):
I'm certainly concerned that we are seeing more youth going
into correction centers across the country. I visited banks here
in Western Australia in Perth to listen to the kids
themselves and talk to me. You know, I've requested to
go into the corrections here in the Northern Territory. It's
(10:34):
important to me to work within our justice system and
the Attorney General on how week of traveling with the
Justice Reinvestment Section Daniel, I don't want to see the
high incarceration rates keep rising. But when you have pieces
of legislation in different jurisdictions, especially like here in the
(10:54):
Northern Territory, that only have the outcome of prison, it
is it's an incredibly, incredibly deeply worrying position. Yes, I
am worried about that.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
You mentioned the Coalition of Peaks earlier on, which represents
aboriginal organizations around the country, some eight hundred. They've stated
that they're concerned that states and territories aren't taking closing
the games seriously. Do you agree with that assessment.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
I had my first meeting with all the Indigenous Affairs
ministers plus the Coalition of Peaks Daniel and we met
in Perth in November. But I did raise, along with
Pat Turner in Perth, that we had to look at
the issue of remand and I task the Indigenous Affairs
ministers to go back to their cabinets and look at
(11:40):
the issue of remand in their jurisdictions. There were too
many and still too many First Nations families individuals use
in our remand, let alone in the corrections centers themselves.
So that was one thing. And I would say that
I've heard, to answer your question, heard what the Coalition
(12:01):
of Peaks have said about the state and territory governments,
which is why I've now begun my work closely with them.
Speaker 1 (12:09):
So since that meeting, though some states have passed more
regressive policy when it comes to youth justice and holding
more children in remand I mean, is that an alarming
thing for you to hear? As Minister for Indigenous Australians.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
I'm very aware of the fact that each state and
territory parliament makes their laws. What I can do in
the purview that I have as Indigenous Affairs Minister is
continually remind Indigenous Affairs ministers of their roles and responsibilities,
but at the same time talk to my cabinet colleagues
because Indigenous Affairs and the issue of closing the gap
(12:46):
isn't just on Indigenous ministers. This has to be a
collective responsibility of every single cabinet in every single Parliament
of Australia, and I am very determined to make sure
that every single cabinet in this country knows that.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
We recently had Senator Lydia Thorpe on the podcast and
she argued that closing the gap targets should be scrapped altogether,
that there are distraction and that nothing ever changes. What's
your response to that.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
As I said, when I first came in as Minister,
I invited across the Parliament as senators and members to
join me to work on closing the gap. Senator Thorpe's
been invited on those three occasions that we've held those
meetings and has not attended. So it's disappointing that when
there's an opportunity to actually be involved, to work collectively
(13:38):
to put the pressure collectively on others, that that has
not occurred. I still encourage Senator Thorpe to do that,
but I certainly don't agree with dismissing eight hundred at
least aboriginal organizations across this country and their request for
us to get this right.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
Thank you so much for your time.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
Thank you, Daniel.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
Also in the news today, Opposition leader Peter Dunnan says
the coalition will match Labour's pledge of an eight point
five billion dollar boost to Medicare should they win the election,
and revealed where he intends on getting the funds. A
depressed conference in Brisbane yesterday, Dunton said he would cut
thirty six thousand jobs from the public service and use
the savings to boost medicare. The opposition leader expressed skepticism
(14:40):
as to whether the plan would improve bulk billing rates,
and the messaging app Telegram has been hit with a
fine of nearly one million dollars from Australia's E Safety Commissioner.
The platform failed to answer questions about how it is
addressing child abuse and violent. Extremist material shared on the
ecrypted messaging app Telegram was singled out by ASIO and
(15:00):
the AFP for its use by young people looking to
access extremist content. This has been seven a m. Thanks
for listening.
From Sworts Media. I'm Daniel James. This is seven am.
When the latest report on Closing the Gap was released.
The results were grim. Only five of the nineteen targets
are on track and Indigenous incarceration rates are rising. But
it's the policy itself part of the problem. Critics like
(00:24):
Senator Lydia Thorpe say Closing the Gap hasn't delivered change
and should be scrapped. Meanwhile, Minister for Indigenous Australians Mellendarie
McCarthy has announced hundreds of millions in new spending, including
major investments in remote communities and cheaper grocery prices in
the Northern Territory. Today, Minister Melandary McCarthy on whether Closing
(00:45):
the Gap is still working. It's Tuesday, February twenty five. Minister,
welcome to seven am.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Hello Daniel, lovely to be here and hello to all
your listeners.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
You took on the Indigenous Affairs portfolio in July last
year when your predecessor, Linda Bernie stepped down, and this
was of course not long after the country voted resemblingly
against a Voice to Parliament. What was it like for
you to step into that role at that particular moment.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Well, it was certainly an absolute honor to be able
to step into the role Daniel, especially when I'd worked
so closely with Linda Bernie. It's of course was difficult
with the outcome of the referendum, that I was fairly
realistic in the sense that the Australian people have voted
and their decision was no as disappointing as that might be.
(01:40):
We accept the decision and my role was to actually
move us on and forward and to keep reaching out
to our communities and our First Nations families and remind
ourselves so we're resilient people. We've had many disappointments over
many centuries and we're still here and we're still very strong.
And the first thing I wanted to do when I
(02:02):
became Minister was to reach out to my opponents, especially
those who were vehemently against the Yes vote, to invite
them to rise above using Indigenous affairs as a political football.
And that was a real focus for me and continues
to be.
Speaker 3 (02:20):
Of you when you're supposed to hear about how Australia
is closing the gap between the experiences and livelihoods of
Indigenous and non Indigenous Australians. But you're here today that
only five closing the Gap targets are on track.
Speaker 4 (02:34):
One target is to reduce the rate of Indigenous Australians
held in incarceration by fifteen percent. Instead, that number is
growing and experts say there needs to be greater focus
on alternative justice.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
Minister, most of the closed the Gap targets are not
on track. The rate of suicide amongst Indigenous Australians is increasing,
the rate of children and out of home care is increasing.
More Indigenous people are being sent to prison, and Indigenous
Australians don't well before our time. You've been a member
of Parliament in the territory, you've been a senator since
twenty sixteen. You spent time in these communities where these
(03:09):
facts and figures are played out in real life. Why
aren't we seeing change?
Speaker 2 (03:14):
We are seeing change, Daniel, We're just not seeing it
at the pace that we'd like to see it at.
And I do commend the Aboriginal community organizations across the
country who are working with me to implement that change.
In particular, the Aboriginal community medical services across the country
have led the way in terms of local empowerment self
(03:36):
determination to try and improve the lives of First Nations families.
So we've got through the closing the gap. We have
eighty members of the Coalition of Peaks who represent eight
hundred Aboriginal and trrostrate or organizations across the country. That's
a phenomenal number. They want the governments of each state
(03:57):
and territory and the Commonwealth to move more quickly on
assisting with the areas that they have already identified. The
problems exactly what you've mentioned with the high rates of suicide.
So our plan for twenty twenty five is to see
more psychologists, Aboriginal trained psychologists in that area to be
(04:19):
able to assist in subsidizing that. We've been able to
put out five hundred Aboriginal health workers across the country
and offer that in traineeships. There are over three hundred
who've accepted that. We've been able to look at the
First Nation's Children's Commissional role and establish that and that
(04:39):
person is going to be very responsible for interacting with
state and territories about the high rates of removal of
our kids. It's just not good enough.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
What's it like to dedicate your life to this work
and see some of these outcomes actually go backwards.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
I'm a very passionate person in terms of wanting to
see the improvement for people whose lives are in poverty,
and it largely happens to be First Nations families, but
I'm mindful that there are ordinary strayans who are in
exactly that same sense of poverty and wanting to rise
above the despair. What I've found, Daniel, is a lot
(05:18):
of this is working with the people where there are
pockets of such goodness and hope and energy and enthusiasm.
And I am determined to work with people where I
can see we have got the runs on the board.
I find often as I travel across the country that
those people who are achieving, they are not recognized for
(05:40):
the work they're doing. And if we can get behind
the people who do have the answers, and they are
largely our Aboriginal community organizations, largely our Aboriginal elders, they
know the answers and the solutions to a lot of
these problems and we must get behind them. And that
is the approach I take in wanting to improve the
lives for First Nations families across Australia.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
Is the disadvantage that original people are facing across the country.
Is that a class issue as much as it is
a race issue.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
Well, it's a poverty issue, isn't it. Really If you
look at the issues that people ask for. They want
good homes, they want houses to live in. They want
to be able to have a job that they can
get up and go to and feel respected, that there's
dignity in the work that they do, and that they're
paid at a rate that they can afford to look
after their families, that they have long service leave, superannuation,
(06:32):
holiday pay. This is important to me and I have
been trying to roll out a thousand jobs in the
ranger space, seven hundred and seventy identify positions for First
Nations women. But I want to see through the remote
jobs program Daniel, the rolling out of three thousand jobs.
I've been talking to workers in Kunnanarah, the is Kimberly
(06:56):
and then in Central Australia around the town camps. They
have been really really pleased with the rise in their
pay and the fact that they have dignity in the
workspace and the fact that they can look after their families.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
After the break. Why the Minister is spending hundreds of
millions of dollars on more police.
Speaker 5 (07:31):
So this is about doing better. This funding will deliver
essential services for remote communities, including policing, women's safety, children's health,
education and alcohol harm reduction.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
Minsty you just announced a big package for remote communities
eight hundred and forty two million dollars, but two hundred
and five million of that is ear marked for policing
in remote Northern Territory communities. The territory already has more
police per capita than anywhere else in the Why do
those communities need more police?
Speaker 2 (08:03):
I would look at that statistic in terms of more
policing per capita. What I would say is this, Daniel,
that when we have the largest case of family and
domestic violence, largely here in the Northern Territory, the one
thing I do get when I travel our communities is
where are the police? Where is the support for our
women and families? So I beg to differ there in
(08:27):
terms of those statistics. And I know that there's been
a large injection of police to Alice Springs. We've also
had people from the police force in South Australia come
up under the call of the Chief Minister of the
Northern Territory. So I would say that the safety of
women and children is paramount. But at the same time,
the Commissioner of Police who at Gama last year apologized
(08:51):
to First Nations families for the history of the police
force relationship with Aboriginal people in the Northern Territory. Now
I trust that that is a beginning, a new beginning
under the Police Commissioner in terms of wanting to see
more Aberiginal tristraight on the people in the police force
to have a better understanding in terms of the many
(09:13):
languages we have. It's an imperfect system and often a
system that disappoints, but we cannot give up and we
must not give up on wanting to ensure the safety
of our families in the Northern Territory.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
What do you think is a good outcome from that
investment and what do you think it's a good idea well.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
Community policing is something that I think has always been
talked about when you do it at the local level,
and there are many good examples across the country, not
just here in the Northern Territory. When you do have
community policing at the local level, where you have Aboriginal community,
police officers involved, Aboriginal elders involved, working in a constructive way,
(09:54):
then they make big differences in our community.
Speaker 1 (09:57):
I guess the concerned Minister is sort of in a
recent Productivity Commission report and closing the gap is that
there is a rise in the number of Indigenous children
being jailed around the country. Are you concerned that more
policing will lead to more children being locked up?
Speaker 2 (10:12):
I'm certainly concerned that we are seeing more youth going
into correction centers across the country. I visited banks here
in Western Australia in Perth to listen to the kids
themselves and talk to me. You know, I've requested to
go into the corrections here in the Northern Territory. It's
(10:34):
important to me to work within our justice system and
the Attorney General on how week of traveling with the
Justice Reinvestment Section Daniel, I don't want to see the
high incarceration rates keep rising. But when you have pieces
of legislation in different jurisdictions, especially like here in the
(10:54):
Northern Territory, that only have the outcome of prison, it
is it's an incredibly, incredibly deeply worrying position. Yes, I
am worried about that.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
You mentioned the Coalition of Peaks earlier on, which represents
aboriginal organizations around the country, some eight hundred. They've stated
that they're concerned that states and territories aren't taking closing
the games seriously. Do you agree with that assessment.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
I had my first meeting with all the Indigenous Affairs
ministers plus the Coalition of Peaks Daniel and we met
in Perth in November. But I did raise, along with
Pat Turner in Perth, that we had to look at
the issue of remand and I task the Indigenous Affairs
ministers to go back to their cabinets and look at
(11:40):
the issue of remand in their jurisdictions. There were too
many and still too many First Nations families individuals use
in our remand, let alone in the corrections centers themselves.
So that was one thing. And I would say that
I've heard, to answer your question, heard what the Coalition
(12:01):
of Peaks have said about the state and territory governments,
which is why I've now begun my work closely with them.
Speaker 1 (12:09):
So since that meeting, though some states have passed more
regressive policy when it comes to youth justice and holding
more children in remand I mean, is that an alarming
thing for you to hear? As Minister for Indigenous Australians.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
I'm very aware of the fact that each state and
territory parliament makes their laws. What I can do in
the purview that I have as Indigenous Affairs Minister is
continually remind Indigenous Affairs ministers of their roles and responsibilities,
but at the same time talk to my cabinet colleagues
because Indigenous Affairs and the issue of closing the gap
(12:46):
isn't just on Indigenous ministers. This has to be a
collective responsibility of every single cabinet in every single Parliament
of Australia, and I am very determined to make sure
that every single cabinet in this country knows that.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
We recently had Senator Lydia Thorpe on the podcast and
she argued that closing the gap targets should be scrapped altogether,
that there are distraction and that nothing ever changes. What's
your response to that.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
As I said, when I first came in as Minister,
I invited across the Parliament as senators and members to
join me to work on closing the gap. Senator Thorpe's
been invited on those three occasions that we've held those
meetings and has not attended. So it's disappointing that when
there's an opportunity to actually be involved, to work collectively
(13:38):
to put the pressure collectively on others, that that has
not occurred. I still encourage Senator Thorpe to do that,
but I certainly don't agree with dismissing eight hundred at
least aboriginal organizations across this country and their request for
us to get this right.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
Thank you so much for your time.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
Thank you, Daniel.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
Also in the news today, Opposition leader Peter Dunnan says
the coalition will match Labour's pledge of an eight point
five billion dollar boost to Medicare should they win the election,
and revealed where he intends on getting the funds. A
depressed conference in Brisbane yesterday, Dunton said he would cut
thirty six thousand jobs from the public service and use
the savings to boost medicare. The opposition leader expressed skepticism
(14:40):
as to whether the plan would improve bulk billing rates,
and the messaging app Telegram has been hit with a
fine of nearly one million dollars from Australia's E Safety Commissioner.
The platform failed to answer questions about how it is
addressing child abuse and violent. Extremist material shared on the
ecrypted messaging app Telegram was singled out by ASIO and
(15:00):
the AFP for its use by young people looking to
access extremist content. This has been seven a m. Thanks
for listening.
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Cardiac Cowboys
The heart was always off-limits to surgeons. Cutting into it spelled instant death for the patient. That is, until a ragtag group of doctors scattered across the Midwest and Texas decided to throw out the rule book. Working in makeshift laboratories and home garages, using medical devices made from scavenged machine parts and beer tubes, these men and women invented the field of open heart surgery. Odds are, someone you know is alive because of them. So why has history left them behind? Presented by Chris Pine, CARDIAC COWBOYS tells the gripping true story behind the birth of heart surgery, and the young, Greatest Generation doctors who made it happen. For years, they competed and feuded, racing to be the first, the best, and the most prolific. Some appeared on the cover of Time Magazine, operated on kings and advised presidents. Others ended up disgraced, penniless, and convicted of felonies. Together, they ignited a revolution in medicine, and changed the world.