April 2, 2025 • 14 mins
Australian defence officials are preparing to choose whether to buy warships from Germany or Japan.
It’s an $11 billion decision – and is about far more than ship design and cost.
Given Japan describes Australia as its most important security partner after the United States, our decision will send a signal about whether the relationship is reciprocated.
These considerations have been sharpened by the recent appearance of the Chinese navy off our shores – and by the Trump administration's reshaping of American foreign policy.
Today, special correspondent for The Saturday Paper Jason Koutsoukis, on the frigate deal that could cement the Japan-Australia alliance, or sink it.
If you enjoy 7am, the best way you can support us is by making a contribution at 7ampodcast.com.au/support.
Socials: Stay in touch with us on Instagram
Guest: Special correspondent for The Saturday Paper, Jason Koutsoukis.
Photo: Connor Morrison / ADF
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
From Schwartz Media. I'm Ruby Jones. This is seven AM.
Australian defense officials are currently deciding whether to buy warships
off Germany or Japan. It's an eleven billion dollar decision
with consequences that go well beyond that. Given Japan describes
(00:22):
Australia as its most important security partner after the United States,
our decision on the warships will send a signal about
whether the relationship is reciprocated. These considerations have been sharpened
by the recent appearance of the Chinese navy off our
shores and by the Trump administration's reshaping of American foreign policy.
Today special correspondent for the Saturday Paper, Jason Kotsukus on
(00:46):
the frigate deal that could cement the Japan Australia Alliance
or sink it. It's Thursday, April three. So, Jason, you
lived and worked in Japan for several years, didn't you?
(01:07):
Can you tell me about it?
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Ruby, I did live there for three and a half years.
In fact, I was working for the Japanese media company Nike,
which most Australians probably know as having something to do
with the Nike Index. Nik does still own the index.
They also own a big newspaper there, and they've been
trying to expand overseas, so that's why they've been hiring
people like me to help them with their English language expansion.
(01:32):
And it was a fascinating experience.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
And so, as an Australian journalist working for a Japanese
media company, what did you observe about how Japan sees
its relationship with Australia.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
I think Japan does really still think of Australia the
way I thought of Australia in the nineteen eighties. Australia
is still very much just a tourist destination. It's also
a place where they buy their iron ore and their
natural gas, and it hasn't really, in the minds of
most Japanese people on the street, developed much beyond that.
(02:09):
But I do think since Australia signed a defense agreement
with Japan a few years ago under then Prime Minister
Scott Morrison, more Japanese are starting to take Australia more
seriously as a real kind of security partner.
Speaker 3 (02:23):
Talks are reportedly underway to arrange a four way somewhere
between the United States, Japan, Australia and India. The so
called Quad Framework, apparently to counter the influence of China
in the region.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Of course, Japan and Australia are both in this four
nation grouping known as the CORD and I think when
the Orcas Agreement was announced that also got a lot
more Japanese people sort of sitting up and taking Australia more.
Speaker 4 (02:49):
Seriously America by the DAYO.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Okay, well, can you tell me a bit more about that.
What we've heard from Japan about the way it sees
Australia and the signs that perhaps the relationship is deepening.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
Well, I think there's no better side of how Australia
is viewed by Japan than a speech last week given
by the Japanese Ambassador to Australia, Kazahiro Suzuki. He was
speaking at the eighth Annual Japan Symposium at the University
of Western Australia, and Ambassador Szuki did say in his
(03:32):
speech that the current security relationship between Japan, Australia and
the US is an Isosceles triangle where you've got two
equal sides and one shorter side. And I guess for him,
Japan and the US are two big, strong, influential players
when it comes to the Indo Pacific. So is Australia
(03:54):
ready to step up and start contributing as much to
the triangle as Japan and the.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
And so what is your view on that? Do we
think about Japan as much as it thinks about us?
Speaker 2 (04:07):
Well? I think Australia has said a lot of good
things about Japan in the past five to ten years.
It has aggressively courted Japan as a security partner. We
have the Quad and Australia signed a defense and security
partnership with Japan. It's the only partnership of its kind
that Japan has with any other nation except the United States.
(04:30):
And now Australian defense officials have established this new frigate
program called the C three thousand General Purpose Frigate Program,
and Japan has been shortlisted as one of two possible
designers for this new frigate. It's a program that will
eventually see eleven frigates built for the Royal Australian Navy. Frigates,
(04:53):
of course, are a smaller, more versatile kind of warship
and under this program, Australia and visitors that the first
three frigates will be built overseas. At a foreign shipyard
and then after that the remaining eight ships will be built,
probably in Western Australia. And the government is at the
(05:14):
stage where it's down to these two tenders for this
general purpose frigate. One is from Japan where the prime
contractor would be Mitsubishi Heavy Industries. The other design is
from Germany and the contractor there is Tissen Krup Marine System.
Speaker 4 (05:33):
Ordering of eleven new warships. They've got a ten billion
dollar purchase decision to make. It's come down to a
choice between Japanese or German built frigates for our navy.
Now the former Japanese ambassador to Australia is pushing the
PM to let Japan build the warships.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
Okay, so what would you say the main difference is
than Jason between the two proposals.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
Well, let's start with the German frigate, which is called
the Miko eight two hundred. It's one of the most
widely exported frigates in the world in its class. It's
used in multiple navies across the world, in South Africa, Algeria, Egypt, Poland.
It's approven design. These frigates are modular, so all the
important stuff like the weapons, sensors and combat systems are
(06:19):
in these discrete, self contained units that can be added
or moved around independently of the ship's structure. The German
design is also a bit more affordable. They're smaller, they
have a lighter weapons load. They're basically IKEA ships. On
the other hand, the Mgami class from Japan.
Speaker 5 (06:38):
I explain about a current status with the Mogama crass
constructions from twenty eighteenth. We have started contraction over mogam
class today.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
It's a new design. It's an upgrade on the Mcgami class,
I should say, and there's a bunch of new improvements
built into this ship design that will help the Australian
Navy respond to China's naval capabilities.
Speaker 5 (07:04):
This is a flexible modira design capabilities, so you can
modify this kind of a mast with a powerful lad
as a foreign countries or fording manufacturer Ladio systems.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
One defense official told me that in theory, the Magami
class is a better ship. The problem is it hasn't
been tested in the water yet. But what can't be
ignored in this decision is that the Japanese ships do
carry a lot more strategic weight. You know, Japan is
a crucial partner for Australia and they've shown that they're
(07:40):
very strategically invested in the outcome. And if Australia picked
the Japanese consortium, I think that would send a very
strong signal to Tokyo that Australia wants to deepen its partnership.
But we've come close to a deal like this with
Japan before and it didn't end well.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
Coming up after the break Tony Abbott and the handshake deal,
he denied.
Speaker 6 (08:09):
Hi, I'm Daniel James. Seven Am tells stories that need
to be told. Our journalism is founded on trust and independence,
and now we're increasing our coverage. Every Saturday until the election,
will bring you an extra episode to break down the
biggest political moments of the week. If you enjoy seven Am,
the best way you can support us is by making
a contribution at seven am podcast dot com dotu slash support.
(08:35):
Thanks for listening and supporting our work.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
Jason, you said that Australia and Japan have had a
deal similar to this one fall through in the past,
so tell me what happened.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
Well, it wasn't just that a potential defense deal between
our two countries fell through. It was a spectacular failure
that left a lot of bitterness in Japan.
Speaker 7 (09:01):
We want the best possible subs for the best possible price.
We want the world's best conventional submarines, and Madam Speaker,
who builds them and where they're built will depend upon
a competitive evaluation process. That is as it should be.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
It was back in twenty fourteen when Tony Abbott was
Prime Minister and he did a handshake deal with his
Japanese counterparit Shinzo Abe and promised him that Australia would
select Japan to build eight sorry you class submarines for
Australia to replace our Collins class submarines.
Speaker 8 (09:44):
Can the Prime Minister please advise the House as to
whether he or anyone acting on his behalf has entered
into an agreement with Prime Minister Abe and or the
Government of Japan concerning the future submarine project, and if so,
what is the nature of such an agreement.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
I call the Honorable the Prime Minister.
Speaker 5 (10:04):
Now Madeu Spuega.
Speaker 7 (10:07):
Of course, we are exploring the potential for defense cooperation
with Japan. Is another is this another outbreak of xenophobia ammers?
Speaker 2 (10:16):
As Abbot made the proposal without knowing which submarine would
actually best suit Australia both technically and strategically. He told
Chinzo Abe that he would award Japan the fifty billion
dollar contract without talking to any of his cabinet colleagues,
and this caused a lot of uproar in Australia and
serious pressure on his leadership.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
In Adelaide, the defense industry and state government are growing
increasingly frustrated with the submarine contract situation.
Speaker 2 (10:46):
And in order to survive a leadership challenge, he made
a promise to South Australian MBS that the new fleet
OF's submarines would be put on an open tender, and
he tried to deny that he ever made a secret
deal with Tokyo.
Speaker 7 (11:01):
So I've had discussions about submarine partnerships with Japan, I've
had discussions about submarine partnerships with the Germans, and I've
had discussions about submarine partnerships with the French. Now it's true,
it's true that those discussions up till now have been
more detailed with the Japanese because the Javanese and.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
By February twenty fifteen, Abbott had formerly reneged on this
deal with Shinzo Abe and eventually the contract was awarded
to France, and then.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
We famously backed out of that deal and signed up
to buy the US subs Right.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
That's right, So we didn't just dug the Japanese. We,
of course, perhaps even more notoriously went on to reneg
on our deal to buy new submarines from France. I
guess at least reneggie on the promise to Japan didn't
cost us anything. Backing out of the deal with France
cost Australian taxpayers are billion dollars.
Speaker 1 (11:58):
So I mean we have some form here, Jason, and
it seems like Japan they might be right to be
cautious when it comes to making any kind of security
or manufacturing deal with US. So what happens now at
this stage if the Australian government decides not to go
with Japan this time around.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
Well, As one person who's close to the Japanese bid
told me, the Japanese are pragmatic and if they lose,
they will say this is unfortunate and we're disappointed because
we had high hopes, and everyone in Australia will read
that as a sign that they are okay about not
winning the bid, but that will not be the case
(12:37):
behind the scenes, and I think that's pretty accurate. They
will definitely be very polite about it, but under the surface,
I think the Japanese would be very puzzled as to
the real reasoning behind Australia not investing in the partnership
with Japan, and it would take quite a bit of
time for Australia to really recover from that. Mitsubishi heavy
(13:03):
the company that's going to build these frigates, They've done
everything possible to make clear to the Australians that they
can meet every technical specification that they need in this ship,
and I think if Japan doesn't succeed this time, they'll
really start to wonder whether Australia does take it seriously
as a real kind of security and industrial partner.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
Jason, thank you so much for your time.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
Oh thanks Rby, thanks for having me on seven Am.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
Also in the news today, Shadow Treasurer Angus Taylor has
announced the Coalition will establish a new statutory body in
the Treasury aimed at fast tracking private sector investment if
a coalition government were elected. He says the proposed office,
called Investment Australia, report directly to the Treasurer and Cabinet,
and will have legislated powers to hold government agencies to
(14:05):
account for bureaucratic delays on major national projects. And the
Victorian Parliament has approved new anti vilification laws, which the
government says will protect more people from hate speech or
harmful conduct. The new laws extend anti vilification protections to
cover disability, gender and sexual identity, as well as those
(14:25):
who have a personal association with someone who has a
protected attribute. I'm Ruby Jones seven am will be back tomorrow.
From Schwartz Media. I'm Ruby Jones. This is seven AM.
Australian defense officials are currently deciding whether to buy warships
off Germany or Japan. It's an eleven billion dollar decision
with consequences that go well beyond that. Given Japan describes
(00:22):
Australia as its most important security partner after the United States,
our decision on the warships will send a signal about
whether the relationship is reciprocated. These considerations have been sharpened
by the recent appearance of the Chinese navy off our
shores and by the Trump administration's reshaping of American foreign policy.
Today special correspondent for the Saturday Paper, Jason Kotsukus on
(00:46):
the frigate deal that could cement the Japan Australia Alliance
or sink it. It's Thursday, April three. So, Jason, you
lived and worked in Japan for several years, didn't you?
(01:07):
Can you tell me about it?
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Ruby, I did live there for three and a half years.
In fact, I was working for the Japanese media company Nike,
which most Australians probably know as having something to do
with the Nike Index. Nik does still own the index.
They also own a big newspaper there, and they've been
trying to expand overseas, so that's why they've been hiring
people like me to help them with their English language expansion.
(01:32):
And it was a fascinating experience.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
And so, as an Australian journalist working for a Japanese
media company, what did you observe about how Japan sees
its relationship with Australia.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
I think Japan does really still think of Australia the
way I thought of Australia in the nineteen eighties. Australia
is still very much just a tourist destination. It's also
a place where they buy their iron ore and their
natural gas, and it hasn't really, in the minds of
most Japanese people on the street, developed much beyond that.
(02:09):
But I do think since Australia signed a defense agreement
with Japan a few years ago under then Prime Minister
Scott Morrison, more Japanese are starting to take Australia more
seriously as a real kind of security partner.
Speaker 3 (02:23):
Talks are reportedly underway to arrange a four way somewhere
between the United States, Japan, Australia and India. The so
called Quad Framework, apparently to counter the influence of China
in the region.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Of course, Japan and Australia are both in this four
nation grouping known as the CORD and I think when
the Orcas Agreement was announced that also got a lot
more Japanese people sort of sitting up and taking Australia more.
Speaker 4 (02:49):
Seriously America by the DAYO.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Okay, well, can you tell me a bit more about that.
What we've heard from Japan about the way it sees
Australia and the signs that perhaps the relationship is deepening.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
Well, I think there's no better side of how Australia
is viewed by Japan than a speech last week given
by the Japanese Ambassador to Australia, Kazahiro Suzuki. He was
speaking at the eighth Annual Japan Symposium at the University
of Western Australia, and Ambassador Szuki did say in his
(03:32):
speech that the current security relationship between Japan, Australia and
the US is an Isosceles triangle where you've got two
equal sides and one shorter side. And I guess for him,
Japan and the US are two big, strong, influential players
when it comes to the Indo Pacific. So is Australia
(03:54):
ready to step up and start contributing as much to
the triangle as Japan and the.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
And so what is your view on that? Do we
think about Japan as much as it thinks about us?
Speaker 2 (04:07):
Well? I think Australia has said a lot of good
things about Japan in the past five to ten years.
It has aggressively courted Japan as a security partner. We
have the Quad and Australia signed a defense and security
partnership with Japan. It's the only partnership of its kind
that Japan has with any other nation except the United States.
(04:30):
And now Australian defense officials have established this new frigate
program called the C three thousand General Purpose Frigate Program,
and Japan has been shortlisted as one of two possible
designers for this new frigate. It's a program that will
eventually see eleven frigates built for the Royal Australian Navy. Frigates,
(04:53):
of course, are a smaller, more versatile kind of warship
and under this program, Australia and visitors that the first
three frigates will be built overseas. At a foreign shipyard
and then after that the remaining eight ships will be built,
probably in Western Australia. And the government is at the
(05:14):
stage where it's down to these two tenders for this
general purpose frigate. One is from Japan where the prime
contractor would be Mitsubishi Heavy Industries. The other design is
from Germany and the contractor there is Tissen Krup Marine System.
Speaker 4 (05:33):
Ordering of eleven new warships. They've got a ten billion
dollar purchase decision to make. It's come down to a
choice between Japanese or German built frigates for our navy.
Now the former Japanese ambassador to Australia is pushing the
PM to let Japan build the warships.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
Okay, so what would you say the main difference is
than Jason between the two proposals.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
Well, let's start with the German frigate, which is called
the Miko eight two hundred. It's one of the most
widely exported frigates in the world in its class. It's
used in multiple navies across the world, in South Africa, Algeria, Egypt, Poland.
It's approven design. These frigates are modular, so all the
important stuff like the weapons, sensors and combat systems are
(06:19):
in these discrete, self contained units that can be added
or moved around independently of the ship's structure. The German
design is also a bit more affordable. They're smaller, they
have a lighter weapons load. They're basically IKEA ships. On
the other hand, the Mgami class from Japan.
Speaker 5 (06:38):
I explain about a current status with the Mogama crass
constructions from twenty eighteenth. We have started contraction over mogam
class today.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
It's a new design. It's an upgrade on the Mcgami class,
I should say, and there's a bunch of new improvements
built into this ship design that will help the Australian
Navy respond to China's naval capabilities.
Speaker 5 (07:04):
This is a flexible modira design capabilities, so you can
modify this kind of a mast with a powerful lad
as a foreign countries or fording manufacturer Ladio systems.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
One defense official told me that in theory, the Magami
class is a better ship. The problem is it hasn't
been tested in the water yet. But what can't be
ignored in this decision is that the Japanese ships do
carry a lot more strategic weight. You know, Japan is
a crucial partner for Australia and they've shown that they're
(07:40):
very strategically invested in the outcome. And if Australia picked
the Japanese consortium, I think that would send a very
strong signal to Tokyo that Australia wants to deepen its partnership.
But we've come close to a deal like this with
Japan before and it didn't end well.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
Coming up after the break Tony Abbott and the handshake deal,
he denied.
Speaker 6 (08:09):
Hi, I'm Daniel James. Seven Am tells stories that need
to be told. Our journalism is founded on trust and independence,
and now we're increasing our coverage. Every Saturday until the election,
will bring you an extra episode to break down the
biggest political moments of the week. If you enjoy seven Am,
the best way you can support us is by making
a contribution at seven am podcast dot com dotu slash support.
(08:35):
Thanks for listening and supporting our work.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
Jason, you said that Australia and Japan have had a
deal similar to this one fall through in the past,
so tell me what happened.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
Well, it wasn't just that a potential defense deal between
our two countries fell through. It was a spectacular failure
that left a lot of bitterness in Japan.
Speaker 7 (09:01):
We want the best possible subs for the best possible price.
We want the world's best conventional submarines, and Madam Speaker,
who builds them and where they're built will depend upon
a competitive evaluation process. That is as it should be.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
It was back in twenty fourteen when Tony Abbott was
Prime Minister and he did a handshake deal with his
Japanese counterparit Shinzo Abe and promised him that Australia would
select Japan to build eight sorry you class submarines for
Australia to replace our Collins class submarines.
Speaker 8 (09:44):
Can the Prime Minister please advise the House as to
whether he or anyone acting on his behalf has entered
into an agreement with Prime Minister Abe and or the
Government of Japan concerning the future submarine project, and if so,
what is the nature of such an agreement.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
I call the Honorable the Prime Minister.
Speaker 5 (10:04):
Now Madeu Spuega.
Speaker 7 (10:07):
Of course, we are exploring the potential for defense cooperation
with Japan. Is another is this another outbreak of xenophobia ammers?
Speaker 2 (10:16):
As Abbot made the proposal without knowing which submarine would
actually best suit Australia both technically and strategically. He told
Chinzo Abe that he would award Japan the fifty billion
dollar contract without talking to any of his cabinet colleagues,
and this caused a lot of uproar in Australia and
serious pressure on his leadership.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
In Adelaide, the defense industry and state government are growing
increasingly frustrated with the submarine contract situation.
Speaker 2 (10:46):
And in order to survive a leadership challenge, he made
a promise to South Australian MBS that the new fleet
OF's submarines would be put on an open tender, and
he tried to deny that he ever made a secret
deal with Tokyo.
Speaker 7 (11:01):
So I've had discussions about submarine partnerships with Japan, I've
had discussions about submarine partnerships with the Germans, and I've
had discussions about submarine partnerships with the French. Now it's true,
it's true that those discussions up till now have been
more detailed with the Japanese because the Javanese and.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
By February twenty fifteen, Abbott had formerly reneged on this
deal with Shinzo Abe and eventually the contract was awarded
to France, and then.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
We famously backed out of that deal and signed up
to buy the US subs Right.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
That's right, So we didn't just dug the Japanese. We,
of course, perhaps even more notoriously went on to reneg
on our deal to buy new submarines from France. I
guess at least reneggie on the promise to Japan didn't
cost us anything. Backing out of the deal with France
cost Australian taxpayers are billion dollars.
Speaker 1 (11:58):
So I mean we have some form here, Jason, and
it seems like Japan they might be right to be
cautious when it comes to making any kind of security
or manufacturing deal with US. So what happens now at
this stage if the Australian government decides not to go
with Japan this time around.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
Well, As one person who's close to the Japanese bid
told me, the Japanese are pragmatic and if they lose,
they will say this is unfortunate and we're disappointed because
we had high hopes, and everyone in Australia will read
that as a sign that they are okay about not
winning the bid, but that will not be the case
(12:37):
behind the scenes, and I think that's pretty accurate. They
will definitely be very polite about it, but under the surface,
I think the Japanese would be very puzzled as to
the real reasoning behind Australia not investing in the partnership
with Japan, and it would take quite a bit of
time for Australia to really recover from that. Mitsubishi heavy
(13:03):
the company that's going to build these frigates, They've done
everything possible to make clear to the Australians that they
can meet every technical specification that they need in this ship,
and I think if Japan doesn't succeed this time, they'll
really start to wonder whether Australia does take it seriously
as a real kind of security and industrial partner.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
Jason, thank you so much for your time.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
Oh thanks Rby, thanks for having me on seven Am.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
Also in the news today, Shadow Treasurer Angus Taylor has
announced the Coalition will establish a new statutory body in
the Treasury aimed at fast tracking private sector investment if
a coalition government were elected. He says the proposed office,
called Investment Australia, report directly to the Treasurer and Cabinet,
and will have legislated powers to hold government agencies to
(14:05):
account for bureaucratic delays on major national projects. And the
Victorian Parliament has approved new anti vilification laws, which the
government says will protect more people from hate speech or
harmful conduct. The new laws extend anti vilification protections to
cover disability, gender and sexual identity, as well as those
(14:25):
who have a personal association with someone who has a
protected attribute. I'm Ruby Jones seven am will be back tomorrow.
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