October 20, 2025 • 14 mins
When Donald Trump met Vladimir Putin in Alaska back in August, he rolled out the red carpet, talked up his ability to end the war, but ultimately came away with no deal.
Now, high off his recent Middle East peace deal, Trump is saying he’s “gotta get Russia done”. He met with Ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelensky last week – and he’s preparing another face-to-face with Putin.
So what would it take to end the war?
Today, associate professor of political science and international affairs at George Washington University David Szakonyi, on the offers Putin is making Trump and what they’ll mean for the people of Ukraine.
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Guest: Associate professor of political science and international affairs at George Washington University David Szakonyi
Photo: GRIGORY SYSOEV /SPUTNIK / KREMLIN POOL
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Russia's invasion of Ukraine has had devastating consequences. Tens of
thousands of people have been killed and millions of people
have been displaced. Entire communities, towns, and cities have been flattened,
and Russia now occupies significant sways of Ukrainian land. Nowifi's
recent Middle East peace steal, Trump is saying Russia's next.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
I think that President Putin wants to end the war,
or it wouldn't be talking this way. I spoke to
him yesterday for two and a half hours. We went
through a lot of details. He wants to get it ended.
I think that President Zelensky wants to get it ended.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
Now we have to get it done. So what would
it take to end the war? I'm Daniel James, and
you're listening to seven am today. Associate professor of Political
science and International Affairs at George Washington University David Saconi
on the office Putin is making Trump and what they'll
(00:56):
mean for the people of Ukraine. It's cheese day, ok,
Tiober twenty one. David, thanks for speaking with me. Let's
start with one of me. Zelensky's meeting with Trump last week.
What was Lensky's position going into this mating and what
(01:17):
did he hope to get out of it.
Speaker 3 (01:19):
I think Zelensky came to Washington with two main goals
in mind. First, he wanted the United States to provide
Tomahawk long range missiles and placed even greater pressure on
Vladimir Putin and forced them to the peace table. Secondly,
I think he was hoping to secure firm US security
guarantees to ensure that if they could reach a peace
(01:39):
dale in the future, Russia would actually be bound to
its terms and not.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
Defect shall only by speak at it.
Speaker 3 (01:47):
The mood in Kiev seemed quite optimistic I head of
Zelensky's trip to Washington. In fact, just before his plane
took off, the speaker of Ukraine's parliament, it was LANs
stefan Chuk, told the BBC that this was a very
important historical moment, and he said the meeting would make
clear that the world would see that Putin was not
trustworthy and that decisive action, specifically the delivery of these
(02:09):
Tomahawk missiles would be needed to end the war. Enforced
Russia to the negotiating table.
Speaker 4 (02:15):
We will not seize our struggle, for that would mean
the end of our existence. We will not give up
a single inch of land occupied by the enemy for
our judo.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
There was a real sense of hope that not only
would Trump agree to the tomahawk request, but this stronger
US backing for Ukraine's position would continue to develop, and
that more and more military and economic support would be
delivered from the West.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
Why do you think the Ukrainians were feeling confident that
I would get the tomahawks.
Speaker 3 (02:51):
It's been fascinating to watch US Ukrainan relations evolve since
that fateful February meeting back in the Oval Office, and
really surprising about how vocal Trump has been in his
support for Ukraine's interest over the last couple of months.
Speaker 5 (03:07):
Do they want to have tomahawks going in that direction?
Speaker 2 (03:10):
I don't think so.
Speaker 5 (03:11):
I think I might speak to Russia about that.
Speaker 3 (03:14):
Nor have he declared that Ukraine would receive the tomahawks
if Putin wouldn't agree to return to peace talks.
Speaker 4 (03:20):
Are you saying that you will speak to Putin first
about it?
Speaker 5 (03:24):
I might say, Look, if this war's not going to
get settled, I'm going to send him tomahawks. I may
say that tomahawk is an incredible weapon, very offensive weapon,
and honestly, Russia does not need that.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
They don't need that.
Speaker 3 (03:38):
Yeah, and this is a potentially game changing missile system.
So the fact that the United States was even discussing
providing with Ukraine signaled that this was an important step
forward in progressing and developing US military support for Ukraine.
Tomahawks would allow Ukraine to not just tip the war
(03:59):
in their favor, but target all sorts of critical military
sites across Russia, from aviation bases to the factories producing
the thousands of drones being sent into Ukraine and causing
so much damage. And the Kublin really understood the nature
of this system and how threatening would be for its
own ability to wage war.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
Walls and Winsky was on his white to the US though.
Putin cole Trump and talked to him one of the
fine for two and a half hours. So what's not
about that?
Speaker 3 (04:29):
Cool? Well, unfortunately we never get a full readout, and
I think there are still reports emerging about what was said.
Trump always portrays these calls with Putin as positive and productive,
but the specifics are just very unclear. We do know
that Putin is demanding Ukraine's surrendered territory, that Russia does
(04:49):
not control in the Dundassen parts of Donetsk region. So
Russia wants Zelensky to concede land that right now the
Ukrainians have under their purview, and what he's offering in
exchange is unattractive to Ukrainian's different parts of land that
Russia controls that are destroyed and just not a real
quid pro quo. But we also know that Putin warned
(05:12):
that it's the United States or its allies provided long
range missiles such as the Tomwawks Ukraine, that US Russian
relations would be harmed and that peace would not be
on the table. So the fact that Putin is bringing
this up in the call means that the missiles are
sitting in the front of his mind and he's concerned
that the United States and Ukraine would go down that path,
and his linking of the missile supply to this greater
(05:36):
security arrangement the future of US relations means that the
missiles are like a key bargaining chip. There were also
some trade opportunities that were brought up, and you know,
of course they Putin and Trump agreed to meet again
face to face, this time in Budapest. So that was
one outcome of the call, but those are the kind
of broad contours of what I imagine was a really
(05:58):
unwieldy conversation for chu Hi hours.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
The Ukrainian says. We said David had high hopes going
into the meeting with Trump. Ultimately, though, what came out
of it from a Ukrainian perspective.
Speaker 3 (06:11):
Very little in terms of concrete commitments. That leaves Ukraine
with much less leverage and a forthcoming peace talks. And
it seems like Trump is moving towards this transactional approach
to the Russian Ukraine conflict. He really wants to work
out a deal. I think he really cares about the
cameras catching him bringing peace to the world. He seems
(06:36):
to be obsessed with ending wars as a way of
winning respect from the international community for his unconventional foreign
policy approach. And as we all know, he cares deeply
about winning some future Nobel Peace prize and doesn't really
care how it gets done, who wins and who loses,
as long as fighting quote unquote stops. So I think
(07:00):
that optimism faded away, and now that there's even more
skepticism that we're going to redo a lot of the
same type of courtship that might not lead to any
fruition or any real new military support.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
And while these conversations and meetings were taking place, the
wall continued what's been happening on the ground, while the
leaders continued the negotiations.
Speaker 3 (07:20):
Well, I think the big development of the last couple
months is that both sides are targeting each other's critical infrastructure,
specifically in the energy sector. So Ukraine has had a
lot of success targeting refineries, especially those that are used
to create gasoline for domestic consumption, and that's put a
lot of pressure on supply for cars and basic transportation
within Russia. It's a very visible sign of the conflict
(07:43):
coming home for the average Russian citizen. At the same time,
Russia has been targeting many similar assets within Ukraine, especially
in electricity production and gas storage. Winter is coming in Ukraine,
and Russia wants Ukrainians to feel the pain of cold
winter with intermittent supplies and blackouts. So it's not just
(08:05):
the front lines that are hot right now. There are
other types of targeting and destruction going on to kind
of bring the war home, both in Ukraine and Russia.
And I think that maybe pushing both sides towards working
towards the peace agreement because they realize that their citizens
are desperate for a change, and desperate did not continue
(08:25):
the war. More and more it seems that both sides
are open to a ceasefire rather than fighting out the
comfort to the end.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
Coming up, the business deals being dangled by the Kremlin, David,
you mentioned Trump Imputin discussed trade opportunities during their marathon
phone call. We know that's the way Trump operates through
(08:55):
making deals. So what's known about what Russia is offering
the US what it wants in return.
Speaker 3 (09:01):
Well, it's toyed with a number of different entreats to
the Trump administration. Some are more military, such as extending
the New Start Treaty and doing some nuclear non polluiferation
and arms control, which Trump administration seems really keen on achieving.
And then there's this other business element to it, which
is Russia has floated giving US companies access to rare
(09:23):
earth and other mineral resources. And it also has toyed
with the idea of joint gas, oil and gas projects
in the Arctic, even trilaterally between Russia and China and
the United States. So the idea of making money by
going into business together has been proposed to Trump as
another carrot in terms of what a grand bargain could entail.
(09:45):
And then there's a frankly ridiculous proposition of building an
undersea or rail tunnel linking Russia and the United States,
Alaska and Siberia. I think Elon Musk's boring company was
even floated as one of the potential contractors to carry
out this mega project. The economic value of something like
this is just impossible to really fathom. I mean, these
(10:08):
are not in either country the most dynamic or innovative
or even trade linked regions, So why we would need
to invest billions of dollars beyond some kind of like
symbolic partnership or an opportunity for graft on both sides,
it's these economic opportunities are really designed to sweeten Trump's
(10:30):
appetite for peace rather than actually build long lasting cooperation
between the two countries.
Speaker 1 (10:36):
And side, what should we expect from the upcoming meaning
between Trump and Putin and Hungry?
Speaker 3 (10:40):
Honestly very little. Last time I was on your show,
I predicted that the trilateral meeting between Trump, Putin, and
Lensky would never happen, And I think my prediction was
born out. They have yet to meet in person, So
given what happened in August in Alaska and the back
and forth between Trump and Putin, I think Trump's team
is going to be just as unprepared and get it
walked over by Putin and his staff. So I think
(11:04):
it's going to be again a big photo app and
a lot of blustering and a lot of optimism on
Trump's part. But I'm doubtful that we're going to see
any kind of concrete agreement or back and forth between
Putin and Trump that would get us closer to ending
this war.
Speaker 1 (11:20):
So, Diavid, what do you think it would take to
win this war?
Speaker 3 (11:24):
I think the Tomahawks would be a first step. I
think they would really put pressure on the Russian side
and allow Ukraine to target some of the most destructive assets,
the drone factories and some of the airplanes and aviation bases.
I think would really help shield Ukrainian's domestic production and
allow it to focus on areas where it could reclaim
(11:46):
land from the Russian forces. I also think a stronger
US and European commitment and financially and militarily across the board,
whether it be intelligence or artillery shells or tanks. Russia
can be beaten, but it requires the worst to step
up even more than it already has, and a just
(12:06):
unclear whether or not the chumplemanstradition is willing to go
that far.
Speaker 1 (12:12):
David, thank you so much for your time.
Speaker 3 (12:14):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
Also with the news, British police are investigating claims that
Prince Andrew asked an officer to try and find negative
information about a woman who accused him of sexual assault.
The British paper The Mail Online reported that Prince Andrew
gave a police officer Virginia Guphra's date of birth and
social security number and asked him to dig up dirt
(12:47):
on her with a view to smearing her name. The
reporting comes after Prince Andrew gave up his royal duties
late last week following further revelations about his connections with
sex offender Jeffrey Epstein, and the Victorian Premier has blamed
a very small number of counterprotesters for violence in the
streets of Malbourne over the weekend. Two police officers were
(13:08):
hospitalized after trying to keep anti immigration protesters and counter
anti racism protesters apart. Meanwhile, counterprotesters accused Victoria police of violence,
which injured and hospitalized some attendees. Police say counterprotesters through
rotten fruit rocks and glass bottles to try and break
through barricades. In response, they said they used flash bangs,
(13:30):
pepper spray, and rubber bulls to keep the groups apart.
You can listen to our recent report about police and protests.
It's called Why Protests Are Getting More Dangerous and it's
in your feed right now. I'm Daniel James. This is
seven AM. Thanks for listening.
Speaker 4 (14:00):
O
Russia's invasion of Ukraine has had devastating consequences. Tens of
thousands of people have been killed and millions of people
have been displaced. Entire communities, towns, and cities have been flattened,
and Russia now occupies significant sways of Ukrainian land. Nowifi's
recent Middle East peace steal, Trump is saying Russia's next.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
I think that President Putin wants to end the war,
or it wouldn't be talking this way. I spoke to
him yesterday for two and a half hours. We went
through a lot of details. He wants to get it ended.
I think that President Zelensky wants to get it ended.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
Now we have to get it done. So what would
it take to end the war? I'm Daniel James, and
you're listening to seven am today. Associate professor of Political
science and International Affairs at George Washington University David Saconi
on the office Putin is making Trump and what they'll
(00:56):
mean for the people of Ukraine. It's cheese day, ok,
Tiober twenty one. David, thanks for speaking with me. Let's
start with one of me. Zelensky's meeting with Trump last week.
What was Lensky's position going into this mating and what
(01:17):
did he hope to get out of it.
Speaker 3 (01:19):
I think Zelensky came to Washington with two main goals
in mind. First, he wanted the United States to provide
Tomahawk long range missiles and placed even greater pressure on
Vladimir Putin and forced them to the peace table. Secondly,
I think he was hoping to secure firm US security
guarantees to ensure that if they could reach a peace
(01:39):
dale in the future, Russia would actually be bound to
its terms and not.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
Defect shall only by speak at it.
Speaker 3 (01:47):
The mood in Kiev seemed quite optimistic I head of
Zelensky's trip to Washington. In fact, just before his plane
took off, the speaker of Ukraine's parliament, it was LANs
stefan Chuk, told the BBC that this was a very
important historical moment, and he said the meeting would make
clear that the world would see that Putin was not
trustworthy and that decisive action, specifically the delivery of these
(02:09):
Tomahawk missiles would be needed to end the war. Enforced
Russia to the negotiating table.
Speaker 4 (02:15):
We will not seize our struggle, for that would mean
the end of our existence. We will not give up
a single inch of land occupied by the enemy for
our judo.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
There was a real sense of hope that not only
would Trump agree to the tomahawk request, but this stronger
US backing for Ukraine's position would continue to develop, and
that more and more military and economic support would be
delivered from the West.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
Why do you think the Ukrainians were feeling confident that
I would get the tomahawks.
Speaker 3 (02:51):
It's been fascinating to watch US Ukrainan relations evolve since
that fateful February meeting back in the Oval Office, and
really surprising about how vocal Trump has been in his
support for Ukraine's interest over the last couple of months.
Speaker 5 (03:07):
Do they want to have tomahawks going in that direction?
Speaker 2 (03:10):
I don't think so.
Speaker 5 (03:11):
I think I might speak to Russia about that.
Speaker 3 (03:14):
Nor have he declared that Ukraine would receive the tomahawks
if Putin wouldn't agree to return to peace talks.
Speaker 4 (03:20):
Are you saying that you will speak to Putin first
about it?
Speaker 5 (03:24):
I might say, Look, if this war's not going to
get settled, I'm going to send him tomahawks. I may
say that tomahawk is an incredible weapon, very offensive weapon,
and honestly, Russia does not need that.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
They don't need that.
Speaker 3 (03:38):
Yeah, and this is a potentially game changing missile system.
So the fact that the United States was even discussing
providing with Ukraine signaled that this was an important step
forward in progressing and developing US military support for Ukraine.
Tomahawks would allow Ukraine to not just tip the war
(03:59):
in their favor, but target all sorts of critical military
sites across Russia, from aviation bases to the factories producing
the thousands of drones being sent into Ukraine and causing
so much damage. And the Kublin really understood the nature
of this system and how threatening would be for its
own ability to wage war.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
Walls and Winsky was on his white to the US though.
Putin cole Trump and talked to him one of the
fine for two and a half hours. So what's not
about that?
Speaker 3 (04:29):
Cool? Well, unfortunately we never get a full readout, and
I think there are still reports emerging about what was said.
Trump always portrays these calls with Putin as positive and productive,
but the specifics are just very unclear. We do know
that Putin is demanding Ukraine's surrendered territory, that Russia does
(04:49):
not control in the Dundassen parts of Donetsk region. So
Russia wants Zelensky to concede land that right now the
Ukrainians have under their purview, and what he's offering in
exchange is unattractive to Ukrainian's different parts of land that
Russia controls that are destroyed and just not a real
quid pro quo. But we also know that Putin warned
(05:12):
that it's the United States or its allies provided long
range missiles such as the Tomwawks Ukraine, that US Russian
relations would be harmed and that peace would not be
on the table. So the fact that Putin is bringing
this up in the call means that the missiles are
sitting in the front of his mind and he's concerned
that the United States and Ukraine would go down that path,
and his linking of the missile supply to this greater
(05:36):
security arrangement the future of US relations means that the
missiles are like a key bargaining chip. There were also
some trade opportunities that were brought up, and you know,
of course they Putin and Trump agreed to meet again
face to face, this time in Budapest. So that was
one outcome of the call, but those are the kind
of broad contours of what I imagine was a really
(05:58):
unwieldy conversation for chu Hi hours.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
The Ukrainian says. We said David had high hopes going
into the meeting with Trump. Ultimately, though, what came out
of it from a Ukrainian perspective.
Speaker 3 (06:11):
Very little in terms of concrete commitments. That leaves Ukraine
with much less leverage and a forthcoming peace talks. And
it seems like Trump is moving towards this transactional approach
to the Russian Ukraine conflict. He really wants to work
out a deal. I think he really cares about the
cameras catching him bringing peace to the world. He seems
(06:36):
to be obsessed with ending wars as a way of
winning respect from the international community for his unconventional foreign
policy approach. And as we all know, he cares deeply
about winning some future Nobel Peace prize and doesn't really
care how it gets done, who wins and who loses,
as long as fighting quote unquote stops. So I think
(07:00):
that optimism faded away, and now that there's even more
skepticism that we're going to redo a lot of the
same type of courtship that might not lead to any
fruition or any real new military support.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
And while these conversations and meetings were taking place, the
wall continued what's been happening on the ground, while the
leaders continued the negotiations.
Speaker 3 (07:20):
Well, I think the big development of the last couple
months is that both sides are targeting each other's critical infrastructure,
specifically in the energy sector. So Ukraine has had a
lot of success targeting refineries, especially those that are used
to create gasoline for domestic consumption, and that's put a
lot of pressure on supply for cars and basic transportation
within Russia. It's a very visible sign of the conflict
(07:43):
coming home for the average Russian citizen. At the same time,
Russia has been targeting many similar assets within Ukraine, especially
in electricity production and gas storage. Winter is coming in Ukraine,
and Russia wants Ukrainians to feel the pain of cold
winter with intermittent supplies and blackouts. So it's not just
(08:05):
the front lines that are hot right now. There are
other types of targeting and destruction going on to kind
of bring the war home, both in Ukraine and Russia.
And I think that maybe pushing both sides towards working
towards the peace agreement because they realize that their citizens
are desperate for a change, and desperate did not continue
(08:25):
the war. More and more it seems that both sides
are open to a ceasefire rather than fighting out the
comfort to the end.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
Coming up, the business deals being dangled by the Kremlin, David,
you mentioned Trump Imputin discussed trade opportunities during their marathon
phone call. We know that's the way Trump operates through
(08:55):
making deals. So what's known about what Russia is offering
the US what it wants in return.
Speaker 3 (09:01):
Well, it's toyed with a number of different entreats to
the Trump administration. Some are more military, such as extending
the New Start Treaty and doing some nuclear non polluiferation
and arms control, which Trump administration seems really keen on achieving.
And then there's this other business element to it, which
is Russia has floated giving US companies access to rare
(09:23):
earth and other mineral resources. And it also has toyed
with the idea of joint gas, oil and gas projects
in the Arctic, even trilaterally between Russia and China and
the United States. So the idea of making money by
going into business together has been proposed to Trump as
another carrot in terms of what a grand bargain could entail.
(09:45):
And then there's a frankly ridiculous proposition of building an
undersea or rail tunnel linking Russia and the United States,
Alaska and Siberia. I think Elon Musk's boring company was
even floated as one of the potential contractors to carry
out this mega project. The economic value of something like
this is just impossible to really fathom. I mean, these
(10:08):
are not in either country the most dynamic or innovative
or even trade linked regions, So why we would need
to invest billions of dollars beyond some kind of like
symbolic partnership or an opportunity for graft on both sides,
it's these economic opportunities are really designed to sweeten Trump's
(10:30):
appetite for peace rather than actually build long lasting cooperation
between the two countries.
Speaker 1 (10:36):
And side, what should we expect from the upcoming meaning
between Trump and Putin and Hungry?
Speaker 3 (10:40):
Honestly very little. Last time I was on your show,
I predicted that the trilateral meeting between Trump, Putin, and
Lensky would never happen, And I think my prediction was
born out. They have yet to meet in person, So
given what happened in August in Alaska and the back
and forth between Trump and Putin, I think Trump's team
is going to be just as unprepared and get it
walked over by Putin and his staff. So I think
(11:04):
it's going to be again a big photo app and
a lot of blustering and a lot of optimism on
Trump's part. But I'm doubtful that we're going to see
any kind of concrete agreement or back and forth between
Putin and Trump that would get us closer to ending
this war.
Speaker 1 (11:20):
So, Diavid, what do you think it would take to
win this war?
Speaker 3 (11:24):
I think the Tomahawks would be a first step. I
think they would really put pressure on the Russian side
and allow Ukraine to target some of the most destructive assets,
the drone factories and some of the airplanes and aviation bases.
I think would really help shield Ukrainian's domestic production and
allow it to focus on areas where it could reclaim
(11:46):
land from the Russian forces. I also think a stronger
US and European commitment and financially and militarily across the board,
whether it be intelligence or artillery shells or tanks. Russia
can be beaten, but it requires the worst to step
up even more than it already has, and a just
(12:06):
unclear whether or not the chumplemanstradition is willing to go
that far.
Speaker 1 (12:12):
David, thank you so much for your time.
Speaker 3 (12:14):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
Also with the news, British police are investigating claims that
Prince Andrew asked an officer to try and find negative
information about a woman who accused him of sexual assault.
The British paper The Mail Online reported that Prince Andrew
gave a police officer Virginia Guphra's date of birth and
social security number and asked him to dig up dirt
(12:47):
on her with a view to smearing her name. The
reporting comes after Prince Andrew gave up his royal duties
late last week following further revelations about his connections with
sex offender Jeffrey Epstein, and the Victorian Premier has blamed
a very small number of counterprotesters for violence in the
streets of Malbourne over the weekend. Two police officers were
(13:08):
hospitalized after trying to keep anti immigration protesters and counter
anti racism protesters apart. Meanwhile, counterprotesters accused Victoria police of violence,
which injured and hospitalized some attendees. Police say counterprotesters through
rotten fruit rocks and glass bottles to try and break
through barricades. In response, they said they used flash bangs,
(13:30):
pepper spray, and rubber bulls to keep the groups apart.
You can listen to our recent report about police and protests.
It's called Why Protests Are Getting More Dangerous and it's
in your feed right now. I'm Daniel James. This is
seven AM. Thanks for listening.
Speaker 4 (14:00):
O
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