June 9, 2025 • 14 mins
When Anthony Albanese first became prime minister, he began dismantling the Home Affairs super-ministry, which had been overseen by Peter Dutton.
Labor had long opposed a model which saw such significant power contained within one portfolio – and removed ASIO and the AFP from Home Affairs.
Now, in a spectacular reversal, and without explanation, Albanese is making Home Affairs even more powerful than the super-portfolio first created in 2017 – and it’s all under the control of Tony Burke.
Today, special correspondent for The Saturday Paper, Jason Koutsoukis, on what the move says about Tony Burke’s rising power, and what it means for our national security.
If you enjoy 7am, the best way you can support us is by making a contribution at 7ampodcast.com.au/support.
Socials: Stay in touch with us on Instagram
Guest: Special correspondent for The Saturday Paper, Jason Koutsoukis
Photo: Mick Tsikas
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
From Swarts Media. I'm Daniel James. This is seven am.
When Anthony Albanese he first became Prime Minister, he began
dismantling the Superministry of Home Affairs, which had been overseen
by Peter Dunn. Labour had long opposed a model which
saw significant power contained within one portfolio and removed ASIO
(00:24):
and the AFP from Home Affairs. Now, in a spectacular
reversal and without explanation, Albaneze is making Home Affairs more
powerful than ever and that's all under the control of
Tony Burke. Today's special correspondent for the Saturday paper, Jason
kotsukis on what the move says about Tony Burke's rising
(00:45):
power and what it means for our national security this Tuesday,
June tenth, Jason, thanks for speaking with us. This decision
by alban Easy to rebuild Home Affairs into a superministry
(01:08):
has a clear winner, Tony Burke. Can you tell me about.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
Him, Daniel. Tony Burke is one of the most influential
and powerful politicians in Anthony Albanese's cabinet. He's Leader of
the House, so that means he manages all of the
government's legislation and other business in the House of Representatives,
(01:32):
very influential and powerful role. He's also Minister for the Arts,
which is something that is very dear to Tony Burke's heart.
If you're ever in a pub late at night in Canberra,
there's a sort of a chance that you might see
Tony Burke appear with his band. So he likes to
(01:52):
play guitar and get all of the caucus, the labor caucus,
singing along with him. He's also a very prominent factional player,
long standing member of the New South Wales right. Tony
Burk's power base is the SDA, the powerful shop distributors union.
And then lastly he's of course the Minister for Home Affairs,
(02:16):
and in this second term of the Albanese government, this
is a very much more powerful Home Affairs than we
saw in the first term, and Tony Burke is in
charge of this superministry which is going to give him
even more power in this cabinet, in this government.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
So the decision itself by Albanezi dis strength and Home
Affairs is a significant reversal what's actually changing at the ministry.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
When Anthony Albanezi became Prime Minister in May twenty twenty two.
One of the first things he did when he settled
his new cabinet was that he changed the administrative arrangements
surrounding Home Affairs and took away some of the key
agency that Malcolm Turnbull had kind of had given to
(03:03):
or assigned to Home Affairs.
Speaker 3 (03:05):
Prime Ministery's downsize the Home Affairs Department under a sweeping
overhaul of the public service. The changes will give Attorney
General Mark Dreyfus responsibility for criminal law enforcement and policy,
including the Australian Federal Police.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
So Anthony Albanez he took away the Australian Federal Police,
he took away Ostrak, which is the financial crimes regulator.
He also took away things like cyber crime and he
returned that to the Department of the Attorney General. And
then when he had a reshuffle in July last year,
(03:41):
Anthony Albaneze went a step further and he took away
the Australian Security Intelligence Organization, this is our domestic intelligence agency,
and he returned that to the Department of the Attorney General.
So after that reshuffle last year we had a very
much diminished Department of Home Affairs. Now, following Anthon Albanese's
(04:03):
thumping election win, Anthony Albanzi has reversed all of those
changes and brought back into Home Affairs azo the afp
Ostrak and some of those other functions. He's actually made
it a more powerful ministry than it was under Scott
Morrison's prime ministership and under Malcolm Turnbull's prime ministership. It
(04:25):
also deals with immigration, and you would have to say
that Tony Burke is going to be a very busy
minister in this second term of the Albanzi government.
Speaker 1 (04:35):
So, as you told us earlier, Labor opposed the creation
of this suit administry, then in its first term began
downsizing it. So what's changed since then, Well, at.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
The time they justified making these changes on the basis
that Mark Dreyfuss, very senior legal mind in the Labor caucus,
the Attorney General, he was of the view that law enforcement,
both related to the AFB and AZIO, belonged with the
Chief Law Officer. That he felt that it was very
(05:08):
important that he, as Attorney General, in his department, oversee
the activities of these two very key agencies. But I
think that all changed toward the end of January this year,
when news of this caravan laden with explosives was discovered
in durall in arda suburban.
Speaker 4 (05:28):
Sydney synagogue in the heart of the city and a
museum that teaches the horrors of the Holocaust had been
revealed as the two potential targets of that terror plot
involving a caravan at Jural and.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
When news of that caravan first broke in late January,
the Premier of New South Wales, Chris Mins, said that
this was potentially a very serious terrorist incident that was thwarted.
Speaker 5 (05:53):
POLISA were made aware of a van with explosive material
located in it in Dura. They've been conducting investigations into
the site, into the van, into the owners of the
van and any associates of the owners of that van
since that time.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
Now I was briefed about the van.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
So Chris Mins had received a briefing from the New
South Wales Police and when he was up before the
media in Sydney he was across all the details. But
when the Prime Minister was asked about it the next day,
he hadn't received the same briefings that Chris Mins had.
That was because the Australian Federal Police didn't really believe
that this was a terrorist incident that had been thwarted.
(06:36):
They thought it was more likely to be a hoax,
and they hadn't felt that it was necessary to brief
either the Attorney General or the Prime Minister. But what
happened was just a few weeks out from an election.
The Prime Minister looked like he'd been caught unawares. He
was unprepared, but he was kind of blindsided. And I
think behind the scenes, Anthony Albinezi and Tony Burke decided
(06:59):
that if they won the election that they were going
to get all of these national security agencies back under
the Home Affairs roof. They thought that this would prevent
that kind of situation happening again, where you know neither
the Prime Minister or the Home Affairs Minister or the
Journey General you are being briefed by the AFP on
(07:21):
incidents like this Dural caravan incident.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
Coming up after the break the security and political ramifications
of concentrated power. Jason Anthony Albanezi has pointed to information
sharing failures in the wake of the Dural caravan hoax
(07:46):
as the reason for wanting to return over sight of
the AFP and ASIA the Home Affairs. What do experts
you've been speaking to you make of that reasoning.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
Daniel I spoke to one camera insider with very deep
experience inside the national security space here in Canberra, and
this person found the Prime Minister's justification for these changes
that there was a communication breakdown around the Dural caravan
incident to be simply bizarre. This person noted that AZ
(08:17):
and the AFP report to ministers, they do not report
to secretaries of departments, and he argued that the kind
of communication breakdown that we saw around the Dural caravan
incident would have occurred whether AZ and the AFP reported
to the same minister or not, so it didn't really
matter in this person's view if AFP and the ASIA
(08:39):
were part of the Department of the Attorney General or
Home Affairs. The bottom line is they didn't actually believe
that this was a real terrorist incident. That's why they
didn't brief the relevant minister. And I think in this
insider's view, the more likely explanation for the changes lies
in politics, specifically the the elevation of Tony Burke and
(09:02):
the removal of Mark Drefers.
Speaker 1 (09:04):
So what's beyond that? Political calculation.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
Well, Tony Burke has been a close ally of the
Prime ministers for quite a long time. In the wake
of the twenty nineteen federal election loss. This is the
election that Bill short And of course was so heavily
favored to win but just didn't make it. In the
wake of that election defeat, Tony Burke was an important
(09:30):
source of support for Anthony Albanesi. He even backed Albanesi
against his own factional colleague Chris Bowen, and I think
that's created a rift within the New South Wales Right
that hasn't healed. Tony Burke is a bit on his
own within that faction. So I think Anthony Albanese is
(09:50):
very grateful to Tony Burke for that support that he provided,
helping him secure the leadership and then ultimately the prime ministership.
So I think that's probably part of this political calculation here,
that giving Tony Burke more power is a way of
the Prime Minister kind of helping Tony Burke's career at
(10:10):
a time that he is probably looking to expand his
role in influence in Cambra.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
You've mentioned the amount of power that this reversal has
given Tony Burke beyond the Prime Minister. Does this now
making the most powerful politician in Canberra?
Speaker 2 (10:26):
Well, I think he is one of them. There's other ministers,
of course, who have a considerable amount of power and influence.
Penny Wong the Foreign Minister, Mark Butler, the Minister for
Health who is also very close to the Prime Minister,
Katie Gallagher the Minister for Finance, and of course Jim
Chalmers the Treasurer, and Richard Miles, the Defense Minister and
(10:49):
Deputy Prime Minister. But Tony Burke is certainly in that
elite leadership group, and just given the amount of agencies
and government muscle that he's now a master of, you'd
have to say that he is definitely one of the
most powerful and influential ministers in the government, and yeah,
(11:10):
one of the most powerful politicians in Canberra.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
So are we seeing him being anointed as a potential
future leader?
Speaker 2 (11:17):
I don't think this is an anointing of Tony Burke,
but it certainly does put him in a position where
he can show off his political skills. He's already done
a very good job in shutting down a lot of
the controversies around time, affairs that were sort of bubbling
up in the national media from time to time, so
(11:38):
I think he's already shown what a good politician he is.
He's also someone who signaled his leadership ambitions quite openly
over the years, and I think it does help Tony
Burke build up his power base. And you'd have to
think that Tony Burke is a dark horse in the
future labor leadership race. Yet the moment, the media's attention
(12:04):
is probably more focused on Jim Chalmers. He's the government's
best communicator, but that doesn't mean that he's got the
numbers to win the labor leadership. And I think Tony
Burke is someone who's probably very focused on shoring up
his support within the Labor caucus. And I think he's
got a very close relationship with the Prime Minister, and
(12:25):
I think that's going to be helpful to him whenever
that day arrives that he decides to put his hand
up for the leadership.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
Jason, thank you so much for your time.
Speaker 2 (12:37):
Daniel, great to be with you. Thanks very much.
Speaker 1 (12:49):
Also in the news today, protests in Los Angeles over
federal immigration rates have entered a third day, with violent
clashes between demonstrators and law enforcement. President Trump has deployed
the National Guard, a move Californian Governor Gavin Newsom and
Mayor Karen Bass have condemned as unlawful and provocative. The
deployment bypassed the state government, invoking rarely used federal powers
(13:13):
not exercised in California since nineteen sixty five. And Scott
Morrison has received Australia's highest honor, the Companion of the
Order of Australia, for his role during the COVID nineteen crisis.
The former Prime Minister said the award recognizes the resilience
of Australians, not just his leadership. But the announcement has
(13:34):
drawn criticism, with some questioning the decision to honor a
leader still under scrutiny for secretly apporting himself to multiple
ministries during the pandemic. Thanks for listening to seven AM.
We'll be back tomorrow, yeah,
From Swarts Media. I'm Daniel James. This is seven am.
When Anthony Albanese he first became Prime Minister, he began
dismantling the Superministry of Home Affairs, which had been overseen
by Peter Dunn. Labour had long opposed a model which
saw significant power contained within one portfolio and removed ASIO
(00:24):
and the AFP from Home Affairs. Now, in a spectacular
reversal and without explanation, Albaneze is making Home Affairs more
powerful than ever and that's all under the control of
Tony Burke. Today's special correspondent for the Saturday paper, Jason
kotsukis on what the move says about Tony Burke's rising
(00:45):
power and what it means for our national security this Tuesday,
June tenth, Jason, thanks for speaking with us. This decision
by alban Easy to rebuild Home Affairs into a superministry
(01:08):
has a clear winner, Tony Burke. Can you tell me about.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
Him, Daniel. Tony Burke is one of the most influential
and powerful politicians in Anthony Albanese's cabinet. He's Leader of
the House, so that means he manages all of the
government's legislation and other business in the House of Representatives,
(01:32):
very influential and powerful role. He's also Minister for the Arts,
which is something that is very dear to Tony Burke's heart.
If you're ever in a pub late at night in Canberra,
there's a sort of a chance that you might see
Tony Burke appear with his band. So he likes to
(01:52):
play guitar and get all of the caucus, the labor caucus,
singing along with him. He's also a very prominent factional player,
long standing member of the New South Wales right. Tony
Burk's power base is the SDA, the powerful shop distributors union.
And then lastly he's of course the Minister for Home Affairs,
(02:16):
and in this second term of the Albanese government, this
is a very much more powerful Home Affairs than we
saw in the first term, and Tony Burke is in
charge of this superministry which is going to give him
even more power in this cabinet, in this government.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
So the decision itself by Albanezi dis strength and Home
Affairs is a significant reversal what's actually changing at the ministry.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
When Anthony Albanezi became Prime Minister in May twenty twenty two.
One of the first things he did when he settled
his new cabinet was that he changed the administrative arrangements
surrounding Home Affairs and took away some of the key
agency that Malcolm Turnbull had kind of had given to
(03:03):
or assigned to Home Affairs.
Speaker 3 (03:05):
Prime Ministery's downsize the Home Affairs Department under a sweeping
overhaul of the public service. The changes will give Attorney
General Mark Dreyfus responsibility for criminal law enforcement and policy,
including the Australian Federal Police.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
So Anthony Albanez he took away the Australian Federal Police,
he took away Ostrak, which is the financial crimes regulator.
He also took away things like cyber crime and he
returned that to the Department of the Attorney General. And
then when he had a reshuffle in July last year,
(03:41):
Anthony Albaneze went a step further and he took away
the Australian Security Intelligence Organization, this is our domestic intelligence agency,
and he returned that to the Department of the Attorney General.
So after that reshuffle last year we had a very
much diminished Department of Home Affairs. Now, following Anthon Albanese's
(04:03):
thumping election win, Anthony Albanzi has reversed all of those
changes and brought back into Home Affairs azo the afp
Ostrak and some of those other functions. He's actually made
it a more powerful ministry than it was under Scott
Morrison's prime ministership and under Malcolm Turnbull's prime ministership. It
(04:25):
also deals with immigration, and you would have to say
that Tony Burke is going to be a very busy
minister in this second term of the Albanzi government.
Speaker 1 (04:35):
So, as you told us earlier, Labor opposed the creation
of this suit administry, then in its first term began
downsizing it. So what's changed since then, Well, at.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
The time they justified making these changes on the basis
that Mark Dreyfuss, very senior legal mind in the Labor caucus,
the Attorney General, he was of the view that law enforcement,
both related to the AFB and AZIO, belonged with the
Chief Law Officer. That he felt that it was very
(05:08):
important that he, as Attorney General, in his department, oversee
the activities of these two very key agencies. But I
think that all changed toward the end of January this year,
when news of this caravan laden with explosives was discovered
in durall in arda suburban.
Speaker 4 (05:28):
Sydney synagogue in the heart of the city and a
museum that teaches the horrors of the Holocaust had been
revealed as the two potential targets of that terror plot
involving a caravan at Jural and.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
When news of that caravan first broke in late January,
the Premier of New South Wales, Chris Mins, said that
this was potentially a very serious terrorist incident that was thwarted.
Speaker 5 (05:53):
POLISA were made aware of a van with explosive material
located in it in Dura. They've been conducting investigations into
the site, into the van, into the owners of the
van and any associates of the owners of that van
since that time.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
Now I was briefed about the van.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
So Chris Mins had received a briefing from the New
South Wales Police and when he was up before the
media in Sydney he was across all the details. But
when the Prime Minister was asked about it the next day,
he hadn't received the same briefings that Chris Mins had.
That was because the Australian Federal Police didn't really believe
that this was a terrorist incident that had been thwarted.
(06:36):
They thought it was more likely to be a hoax,
and they hadn't felt that it was necessary to brief
either the Attorney General or the Prime Minister. But what
happened was just a few weeks out from an election.
The Prime Minister looked like he'd been caught unawares. He
was unprepared, but he was kind of blindsided. And I
think behind the scenes, Anthony Albinezi and Tony Burke decided
(06:59):
that if they won the election that they were going
to get all of these national security agencies back under
the Home Affairs roof. They thought that this would prevent
that kind of situation happening again, where you know neither
the Prime Minister or the Home Affairs Minister or the
Journey General you are being briefed by the AFP on
(07:21):
incidents like this Dural caravan incident.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
Coming up after the break the security and political ramifications
of concentrated power. Jason Anthony Albanezi has pointed to information
sharing failures in the wake of the Dural caravan hoax
(07:46):
as the reason for wanting to return over sight of
the AFP and ASIA the Home Affairs. What do experts
you've been speaking to you make of that reasoning.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
Daniel I spoke to one camera insider with very deep
experience inside the national security space here in Canberra, and
this person found the Prime Minister's justification for these changes
that there was a communication breakdown around the Dural caravan
incident to be simply bizarre. This person noted that AZ
(08:17):
and the AFP report to ministers, they do not report
to secretaries of departments, and he argued that the kind
of communication breakdown that we saw around the Dural caravan
incident would have occurred whether AZ and the AFP reported
to the same minister or not, so it didn't really
matter in this person's view if AFP and the ASIA
(08:39):
were part of the Department of the Attorney General or
Home Affairs. The bottom line is they didn't actually believe
that this was a real terrorist incident. That's why they
didn't brief the relevant minister. And I think in this
insider's view, the more likely explanation for the changes lies
in politics, specifically the the elevation of Tony Burke and
(09:02):
the removal of Mark Drefers.
Speaker 1 (09:04):
So what's beyond that? Political calculation.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
Well, Tony Burke has been a close ally of the
Prime ministers for quite a long time. In the wake
of the twenty nineteen federal election loss. This is the
election that Bill short And of course was so heavily
favored to win but just didn't make it. In the
wake of that election defeat, Tony Burke was an important
(09:30):
source of support for Anthony Albanesi. He even backed Albanesi
against his own factional colleague Chris Bowen, and I think
that's created a rift within the New South Wales Right
that hasn't healed. Tony Burke is a bit on his
own within that faction. So I think Anthony Albanese is
(09:50):
very grateful to Tony Burke for that support that he provided,
helping him secure the leadership and then ultimately the prime ministership.
So I think that's probably part of this political calculation here,
that giving Tony Burke more power is a way of
the Prime Minister kind of helping Tony Burke's career at
(10:10):
a time that he is probably looking to expand his
role in influence in Cambra.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
You've mentioned the amount of power that this reversal has
given Tony Burke beyond the Prime Minister. Does this now
making the most powerful politician in Canberra?
Speaker 2 (10:26):
Well, I think he is one of them. There's other ministers,
of course, who have a considerable amount of power and influence.
Penny Wong the Foreign Minister, Mark Butler, the Minister for
Health who is also very close to the Prime Minister,
Katie Gallagher the Minister for Finance, and of course Jim
Chalmers the Treasurer, and Richard Miles, the Defense Minister and
(10:49):
Deputy Prime Minister. But Tony Burke is certainly in that
elite leadership group, and just given the amount of agencies
and government muscle that he's now a master of, you'd
have to say that he is definitely one of the
most powerful and influential ministers in the government, and yeah,
(11:10):
one of the most powerful politicians in Canberra.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
So are we seeing him being anointed as a potential
future leader?
Speaker 2 (11:17):
I don't think this is an anointing of Tony Burke,
but it certainly does put him in a position where
he can show off his political skills. He's already done
a very good job in shutting down a lot of
the controversies around time, affairs that were sort of bubbling
up in the national media from time to time, so
(11:38):
I think he's already shown what a good politician he is.
He's also someone who signaled his leadership ambitions quite openly
over the years, and I think it does help Tony
Burke build up his power base. And you'd have to
think that Tony Burke is a dark horse in the
future labor leadership race. Yet the moment, the media's attention
(12:04):
is probably more focused on Jim Chalmers. He's the government's
best communicator, but that doesn't mean that he's got the
numbers to win the labor leadership. And I think Tony
Burke is someone who's probably very focused on shoring up
his support within the Labor caucus. And I think he's
got a very close relationship with the Prime Minister, and
(12:25):
I think that's going to be helpful to him whenever
that day arrives that he decides to put his hand
up for the leadership.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
Jason, thank you so much for your time.
Speaker 2 (12:37):
Daniel, great to be with you. Thanks very much.
Speaker 1 (12:49):
Also in the news today, protests in Los Angeles over
federal immigration rates have entered a third day, with violent
clashes between demonstrators and law enforcement. President Trump has deployed
the National Guard, a move Californian Governor Gavin Newsom and
Mayor Karen Bass have condemned as unlawful and provocative. The
deployment bypassed the state government, invoking rarely used federal powers
(13:13):
not exercised in California since nineteen sixty five. And Scott
Morrison has received Australia's highest honor, the Companion of the
Order of Australia, for his role during the COVID nineteen crisis.
The former Prime Minister said the award recognizes the resilience
of Australians, not just his leadership. But the announcement has
(13:34):
drawn criticism, with some questioning the decision to honor a
leader still under scrutiny for secretly apporting himself to multiple
ministries during the pandemic. Thanks for listening to seven AM.
We'll be back tomorrow, yeah,
Popular Podcasts
Cold Case Files: Miami
Joyce Sapp, 76; Bryan Herrera, 16; and Laurance Webb, 32—three Miami residents whose lives were stolen in brutal, unsolved homicides. Cold Case Files: Miami follows award‑winning radio host and City of Miami Police reserve officer Enrique Santos as he partners with the department’s Cold Case Homicide Unit, determined family members, and the advocates who spend their lives fighting for justice for the victims who can no longer fight for themselves.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.