August 4, 2025 • 15 mins
For nearly two decades, Australian governments have pledged to close the gap between Indigenous and non-Indigenous Australians — in health, education, employment and justice.
But year after year, the data tells a grim story: modest improvements in some areas and deepening crises in others.
Behind the national figures, and in the shadow of the failed referendum, the Northern Territory is falling even further behind.
Today, Yorta Yorta man and co-host of 7am, Daniel James on the ongoing frustrations of First Nations leaders as they try to lead their communities to a better future.
If you enjoy 7am, the best way you can support us is by making a contribution at 7ampodcast.com.au/support.
Socials: Stay in touch with us on Instagram
Guest: Yorta Yorta man and co-host of 7am, Daniel James
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hi, I'm Ruby Jones and you're listening to seven AM.
For nearly two decades, Australian governments have pledged to close
the gap between Indigenous and non Indigenous Australians in health, education,
employment and justice. But year after year, the data tells
(00:23):
a grim story, modest improvements in some areas and deepening
crises in others. Behind the national figures, and in the
shadow of the failed referendum, the Northern Territory is falling
even further behind. Today, yorderman and co host of seven
Am Daniel James, on the ongoing frustrations of First Nations
(00:44):
leaders as they try to lead their communities to a
better future. It's Tuesday, August five. Daniel, Hello, how are
you good?
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Ruby? Good to be on the show with you again.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
So last week we saw the latest progress report into
the Closing the Gap targets. You went through you had
a look. Tell me what it said.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Well, out of the fifteen measurable targets, ten are showing improvement,
while several other key areas continue to worsen. There are
little signs of progress. So I guess the big one
in terms of the knock and effects is birth weights.
The goal is to have ninety one percent of babies
born between two point five kilos and four point five
kilos by twenty thirty one. This year, it was reported
(01:35):
that eighty nine point two percent of babies were actually
born within that healthy weight range. That means that things
like fetal alcohol syndrome disorder are down, and we know
that if a child is born out a healthy birth weight,
then they have the best chance possible to get themselves
a good education and to grow up healthy. And that target,
(01:56):
hopefully in generations to come, will be the one that
breaks the back a lot of the problems that we're
seeing at the moment. Other areas of improvement where early
childhood enrollment, employment is on track, and recognition of land
and sea rights is also on track.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
Right, Okay, so some indications than of things getting better,
particularly for newborns for children, But what about the areas of.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
Concern Daniel, Yeah, the areas of concern are significant because
they're the ones that can trap people in the cycle
of disadvantage. So if we're looking at things like adult
incarceration rates that is going backwards, number of children out
of home care is growing devastatingly, Suicide rates is not
on track to be anywhere near the target required to
(02:48):
close the gap. Social and emotional wellbeing continues to be
a significant issue, and there are also significant regional differences.
New South Wales, Vitry, Coeensland, weigh In, Australia, Tasmanian Act.
Report improvement across most targets, but the part of the
country where pretty much everything is lagging at the moment
(03:09):
on multiple fronts is the Northern Territory.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
Okay, well, let's talk a little more about the incarceration rate,
because that is one of the most stubborn and the
most devastating indicators in the Closing the Gap reports. So
tell me what indigenous leaders are saying about what needs
to change for that to start to reverse.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
It's probably the greatest area of frustration amongst Indigenous leaders
and Indigenous communities more broadly. Leaders Up and Gama called
for things like the thirty two recommendations from the recent
Cornial inquest and to come and dry Walker's death at
the hands of a police officer to be implemented in full.
(03:50):
What we see across the country is that coronial inquests
usually get it right when it comes to getting to
the heart of the issue. So people are calling for that. Particularly,
Uncle Ned Hargraves, who was at Gama, made some very
strident remarks about what needs to change up there. One
of the things that he called for was for police
to stop investigating themselves when it comes to a least
(04:14):
crimes that they may have committed.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
We do not.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
Trust not natory police. I we as the community don't
trust them anymore. We can't trust them. All they want
to do is destroyers and killer lanes. Incarceration is an
issue that affects every jurisdiction across the country, but yet
there is no overarching accountability framework to monitor incarceration rates
(04:40):
and destined custody. Uncle Ned also urged a change in
government attitude and approach towards Indigenous people, emphasizing the current
law and order agendas are targeting Aboriginal youth disproportionately and
causing unnecessary suffering. But there is a tremendous amount of
frustration when it comes to to incarceration rates because it's
(05:02):
a sign that so many of the systems, things like education,
early childhood development, out of home care, all these systems
have at one point or an other, ostensibly failed. If
a kid is finding itself in a watchhouse between the
ages of ten and seventeen and.
Speaker 1 (05:19):
When it comes to accountability. There was one idea that
was raised by Senator Lydia Thorpe around cutting funding to
any jurisdiction who is failing to meet the targets that
were set. There needs to be consequences for not closing
the gap, otherwise, don't take the money. The Northern Territory
(05:41):
relies on federal funding heavily, so what do you make
of that idea?
Speaker 2 (05:46):
Yeah, I think Senability of Thorpe was making sort of
laser guided comments about the Northern Territory in particular, which
has still got a relatively new Conservative government elected on
a tough on crime agenda. Because it is a territory,
the federal government has a range of powers over what
(06:07):
can happen there. The Federal Cabinet has veto power and
can advise the Governor General dra return any legislation passed
in the Northern Territories Legislative Assembly. They have massive funding
leverage Without the federal government, the Northern Territory government basically
is unable to fund itself through the taxes that it raises,
(06:28):
and so the federal government has it within their power
to change any aspect of that legislative agenda that is
making these things worse when it comes to close the.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
Gap after the break Anthony Arbernesi's new path foward in
Indigenous Affairs.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
Daniel.
Speaker 1 (06:55):
On the weekend in the Northern Territory, in arnham Land,
we had Garma Festival. It's the biggest gun ring of
First Nations people across the country. The Prime Minister Anthony
Abernezi was there. Tell me what he had to say.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
Yes. So this is the second time that the Prime
Minister has turned up to Gamo since the failed referendum.
Speaker 3 (07:13):
I hope that the presence of such a large delegation
from my government is an indication that we have doubled
down on our determination to make a difference and find
a path forward.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
He went there basically with an economic agenda. I think
it was something if it was in the Howard area,
you would call it practical reconciliation.
Speaker 3 (07:36):
Working with average and entire straight island of people right
around our nation to boost skills and education, to create
jobs and back businesses, empowering traditional owners to advocate for infrastructure,
housing and energy projects on their land.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
He announced the formation of the first Nation's Economic Empowerment Alliance,
which is something that aims to increase shared decision making
between the Commonwealth and First Nations people to help close
the wealth and social inequality gaps. As part of that,
unveiled thirty one million dollars for a mobile tape service.
Speaker 3 (08:15):
UCH and trailers that will enable teachers to take skills
on the road and train the next generation of mechanics, carpenters,
plumbers and workers in the Aboriginal community controlled sector.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
He also defended the government's record on Indigenous employment, housing, education,
access to clean water, and supply to essential goods, while
acknowledging that huge challenges remain. But perhaps most pointantly, towards
the end of his speech, he cautioned against culture wars
being a dry gully.
Speaker 3 (08:51):
Culture wars are a dry gully. They offer us nothing
and they lead us nowhere. The way forward is to
invest in average On Torres Strait Islander, people trust in
their aspirations and draw from their knowledge.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
So by saying culture wars asrae gully, I mean is
alban easy trying to point people away from those kinds
of debates. What do you think is getting at?
Speaker 2 (09:19):
Yeah, we have a propensity in this country when it
comes to talking about the problems that confront Aboriginal people
and Aboriginal affairs, to talk about everything else except the
issues that confront Aboriginal people and Aboriginal affairs. A classic
example is recent months, really since the referendum filed, there
have been constant attacks on Welcome the Country ceremonies, the
(09:43):
argument being why should I be welcome to my own
country because I live here, of course, forgetting the fact
that Aboriginal people have been here for sixty five thousand
years and Welcome the countries are actually an act of
generosity and reconciliation. There have been calls from the conservative
side of politics, particularly in the lead up to the
(10:05):
recent election, to ordit Aboriginal communities and organizations because they
think that the federal spend on these organizations is not
seeing the outcomes that we would like to see, therefore
placing all the responsibility for these outlies when it comes
to things like closing the gap on Aboriginal organizations and
on Aboriginal people. And of course there's been the ongoing
(10:29):
attempts to gain political capital from the referendum result itself.
We have had conservative governments walk away from treaty processes.
We've had oppositions now in places like Victoria that will
walk away from the treaty process if the Liberal National
Party is elected here.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
Okay. And since the failure of the Voice, there has
been this absence of clear direction in the governments approach
to indigenous affairs. But this speech at Garma, this was
a way for the Prime Minister to, I suppose, reset
state his new priorities. So what did you make of
what he said about the direction that labor government will
(11:10):
take now?
Speaker 2 (11:11):
Yeah, there was a time after the referendum where people
within the government didn't want to touch Aboriginal affairs with
a barge pole because they had barn so much political
capital early in their first term on the referendum. This year,
it really did sound like you said to Reybe, the
Prime Minister was trying to reset the agenda when it
comes to his government and Aboriginal affairs.
Speaker 3 (11:33):
I know there are members of the eurok Justice Commission
here at Gama this weekend. Their commission has spent the
last four years recording the testimony of thousands of people
across Victoria, reflecting on the wrongs of the past, sharing
the pain their families and ancestors suffered as a result
(11:54):
of dispossession and discrimination policies and practices built on exclusion.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
Reading between the lines, what he was kind of indicating,
and it was a commitment that they did have in
the lead up to taking government in the first place,
and that was a national truth telling body that would
be similar to or mirror what has already been done
in Victoria. And Minister for Indigenous Australians well and Dearie
McCarthy has indicated that she is open to a truth
(12:23):
telling body. So truth telling bodies enable Australians to understand
the full story of this place and by doing that
you get attitudinal change. It's a slow thing, but it's
important to him because a truth telling Commission is something
that could go a long way to healing a lot
of the ruptures in this country when it comes to
(12:46):
this treatment of First Nations.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
People, and we've obviously seen that happen here in Victoria.
Do you think we'll see a national truth telling Commission?
Speaker 2 (12:54):
I was pessimistic after the europe Justice Commission finished. I
thought that that would be the only one that we
see in our lifetime. But on the back of Gharma
and there were several Albanezi government ministers up there. It's
definitely a message that's come a little strong from the
community that there needs to be a national truth telling inquiry.
(13:15):
It seems to me that the government is once again
open to the idea after ruling it out before the
last election. It's unfinished business. They're not going to go
towards or near a voice to Parliament again, that's clear.
Why would you if you were the government? But I'm
horseleusly more optimistic than I was six months ago.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
And what else would make the biggest.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
Difference to closing the gap. We need to see more
investment in communities instead of prisons. There's this thing called
justice reinvestment where you take money you would otherwise put
into prisons and into watchhouses and into detentions and facilities,
and you take that money and you put it directly
(14:00):
into communities and you let communities, through their own leadership,
work out a lot of the issues that are seeing
this overrepresentation within prisons. If we can do those things
as well as a truth telling commission nationally, you go
some way to changing the narrative. You change the narrative,
you change attitudes, You change attitudes. He can change outcomes.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
Well, Daniel, thank you for talking with me.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
Always a pleasure. Ruby.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
Also in the news today, the New South Wales Premiere
says it's not open season on the bridge after protesters
won the right to march across the Sydney Harbor Bridge
over the weekend. Chris Mins had stated his opposition to
the major pro Palestine rally taking place on the bridge,
but a Supreme Court judge ruled in favor of the protesters,
saying their case was compelling. The Premiere is now scrutinizing
(15:02):
the decision out of concern it could set a legal
precedent for the use of the bridge as a setting
for protest and the New South Wales Young Liberals want
the coalition to stop pursuing Trump style culture wars and
distance themselves from Sky News. According to a submission to
the party's election review, the group said they felt the
fringe right of the Liberal membership had been given too
(15:22):
much power over policy and had turned off women and
voters from diverse backgrounds. I'm Ruby Jones. This is seven
a m. Thanks Blestling
Hi, I'm Ruby Jones and you're listening to seven AM.
For nearly two decades, Australian governments have pledged to close
the gap between Indigenous and non Indigenous Australians in health, education,
employment and justice. But year after year, the data tells
(00:23):
a grim story, modest improvements in some areas and deepening
crises in others. Behind the national figures, and in the
shadow of the failed referendum, the Northern Territory is falling
even further behind. Today, yorderman and co host of seven
Am Daniel James, on the ongoing frustrations of First Nations
(00:44):
leaders as they try to lead their communities to a
better future. It's Tuesday, August five. Daniel, Hello, how are
you good?
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Ruby? Good to be on the show with you again.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
So last week we saw the latest progress report into
the Closing the Gap targets. You went through you had
a look. Tell me what it said.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Well, out of the fifteen measurable targets, ten are showing improvement,
while several other key areas continue to worsen. There are
little signs of progress. So I guess the big one
in terms of the knock and effects is birth weights.
The goal is to have ninety one percent of babies
born between two point five kilos and four point five
kilos by twenty thirty one. This year, it was reported
(01:35):
that eighty nine point two percent of babies were actually
born within that healthy weight range. That means that things
like fetal alcohol syndrome disorder are down, and we know
that if a child is born out a healthy birth weight,
then they have the best chance possible to get themselves
a good education and to grow up healthy. And that target,
(01:56):
hopefully in generations to come, will be the one that
breaks the back a lot of the problems that we're
seeing at the moment. Other areas of improvement where early
childhood enrollment, employment is on track, and recognition of land
and sea rights is also on track.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
Right, Okay, so some indications than of things getting better,
particularly for newborns for children, But what about the areas of.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
Concern Daniel, Yeah, the areas of concern are significant because
they're the ones that can trap people in the cycle
of disadvantage. So if we're looking at things like adult
incarceration rates that is going backwards, number of children out
of home care is growing devastatingly, Suicide rates is not
on track to be anywhere near the target required to
(02:48):
close the gap. Social and emotional wellbeing continues to be
a significant issue, and there are also significant regional differences.
New South Wales, Vitry, Coeensland, weigh In, Australia, Tasmanian Act.
Report improvement across most targets, but the part of the
country where pretty much everything is lagging at the moment
(03:09):
on multiple fronts is the Northern Territory.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
Okay, well, let's talk a little more about the incarceration rate,
because that is one of the most stubborn and the
most devastating indicators in the Closing the Gap reports. So
tell me what indigenous leaders are saying about what needs
to change for that to start to reverse.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
It's probably the greatest area of frustration amongst Indigenous leaders
and Indigenous communities more broadly. Leaders Up and Gama called
for things like the thirty two recommendations from the recent
Cornial inquest and to come and dry Walker's death at
the hands of a police officer to be implemented in full.
(03:50):
What we see across the country is that coronial inquests
usually get it right when it comes to getting to
the heart of the issue. So people are calling for that. Particularly,
Uncle Ned Hargraves, who was at Gama, made some very
strident remarks about what needs to change up there. One
of the things that he called for was for police
to stop investigating themselves when it comes to a least
(04:14):
crimes that they may have committed.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
We do not.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
Trust not natory police. I we as the community don't
trust them anymore. We can't trust them. All they want
to do is destroyers and killer lanes. Incarceration is an
issue that affects every jurisdiction across the country, but yet
there is no overarching accountability framework to monitor incarceration rates
(04:40):
and destined custody. Uncle Ned also urged a change in
government attitude and approach towards Indigenous people, emphasizing the current
law and order agendas are targeting Aboriginal youth disproportionately and
causing unnecessary suffering. But there is a tremendous amount of
frustration when it comes to to incarceration rates because it's
(05:02):
a sign that so many of the systems, things like education,
early childhood development, out of home care, all these systems
have at one point or an other, ostensibly failed. If
a kid is finding itself in a watchhouse between the
ages of ten and seventeen and.
Speaker 1 (05:19):
When it comes to accountability. There was one idea that
was raised by Senator Lydia Thorpe around cutting funding to
any jurisdiction who is failing to meet the targets that
were set. There needs to be consequences for not closing
the gap, otherwise, don't take the money. The Northern Territory
(05:41):
relies on federal funding heavily, so what do you make
of that idea?
Speaker 2 (05:46):
Yeah, I think Senability of Thorpe was making sort of
laser guided comments about the Northern Territory in particular, which
has still got a relatively new Conservative government elected on
a tough on crime agenda. Because it is a territory,
the federal government has a range of powers over what
(06:07):
can happen there. The Federal Cabinet has veto power and
can advise the Governor General dra return any legislation passed
in the Northern Territories Legislative Assembly. They have massive funding
leverage Without the federal government, the Northern Territory government basically
is unable to fund itself through the taxes that it raises,
(06:28):
and so the federal government has it within their power
to change any aspect of that legislative agenda that is
making these things worse when it comes to close the.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
Gap after the break Anthony Arbernesi's new path foward in
Indigenous Affairs.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
Daniel.
Speaker 1 (06:55):
On the weekend in the Northern Territory, in arnham Land,
we had Garma Festival. It's the biggest gun ring of
First Nations people across the country. The Prime Minister Anthony
Abernezi was there. Tell me what he had to say.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
Yes. So this is the second time that the Prime
Minister has turned up to Gamo since the failed referendum.
Speaker 3 (07:13):
I hope that the presence of such a large delegation
from my government is an indication that we have doubled
down on our determination to make a difference and find
a path forward.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
He went there basically with an economic agenda. I think
it was something if it was in the Howard area,
you would call it practical reconciliation.
Speaker 3 (07:36):
Working with average and entire straight island of people right
around our nation to boost skills and education, to create
jobs and back businesses, empowering traditional owners to advocate for infrastructure,
housing and energy projects on their land.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
He announced the formation of the first Nation's Economic Empowerment Alliance,
which is something that aims to increase shared decision making
between the Commonwealth and First Nations people to help close
the wealth and social inequality gaps. As part of that,
unveiled thirty one million dollars for a mobile tape service.
Speaker 3 (08:15):
UCH and trailers that will enable teachers to take skills
on the road and train the next generation of mechanics, carpenters,
plumbers and workers in the Aboriginal community controlled sector.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
He also defended the government's record on Indigenous employment, housing, education,
access to clean water, and supply to essential goods, while
acknowledging that huge challenges remain. But perhaps most pointantly, towards
the end of his speech, he cautioned against culture wars
being a dry gully.
Speaker 3 (08:51):
Culture wars are a dry gully. They offer us nothing
and they lead us nowhere. The way forward is to
invest in average On Torres Strait Islander, people trust in
their aspirations and draw from their knowledge.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
So by saying culture wars asrae gully, I mean is
alban easy trying to point people away from those kinds
of debates. What do you think is getting at?
Speaker 2 (09:19):
Yeah, we have a propensity in this country when it
comes to talking about the problems that confront Aboriginal people
and Aboriginal affairs, to talk about everything else except the
issues that confront Aboriginal people and Aboriginal affairs. A classic
example is recent months, really since the referendum filed, there
have been constant attacks on Welcome the Country ceremonies, the
(09:43):
argument being why should I be welcome to my own
country because I live here, of course, forgetting the fact
that Aboriginal people have been here for sixty five thousand
years and Welcome the countries are actually an act of
generosity and reconciliation. There have been calls from the conservative
side of politics, particularly in the lead up to the
(10:05):
recent election, to ordit Aboriginal communities and organizations because they
think that the federal spend on these organizations is not
seeing the outcomes that we would like to see, therefore
placing all the responsibility for these outlies when it comes
to things like closing the gap on Aboriginal organizations and
on Aboriginal people. And of course there's been the ongoing
(10:29):
attempts to gain political capital from the referendum result itself.
We have had conservative governments walk away from treaty processes.
We've had oppositions now in places like Victoria that will
walk away from the treaty process if the Liberal National
Party is elected here.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
Okay. And since the failure of the Voice, there has
been this absence of clear direction in the governments approach
to indigenous affairs. But this speech at Garma, this was
a way for the Prime Minister to, I suppose, reset
state his new priorities. So what did you make of
what he said about the direction that labor government will
(11:10):
take now?
Speaker 2 (11:11):
Yeah, there was a time after the referendum where people
within the government didn't want to touch Aboriginal affairs with
a barge pole because they had barn so much political
capital early in their first term on the referendum. This year,
it really did sound like you said to Reybe, the
Prime Minister was trying to reset the agenda when it
comes to his government and Aboriginal affairs.
Speaker 3 (11:33):
I know there are members of the eurok Justice Commission
here at Gama this weekend. Their commission has spent the
last four years recording the testimony of thousands of people
across Victoria, reflecting on the wrongs of the past, sharing
the pain their families and ancestors suffered as a result
(11:54):
of dispossession and discrimination policies and practices built on exclusion.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
Reading between the lines, what he was kind of indicating,
and it was a commitment that they did have in
the lead up to taking government in the first place,
and that was a national truth telling body that would
be similar to or mirror what has already been done
in Victoria. And Minister for Indigenous Australians well and Dearie
McCarthy has indicated that she is open to a truth
(12:23):
telling body. So truth telling bodies enable Australians to understand
the full story of this place and by doing that
you get attitudinal change. It's a slow thing, but it's
important to him because a truth telling Commission is something
that could go a long way to healing a lot
of the ruptures in this country when it comes to
(12:46):
this treatment of First Nations.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
People, and we've obviously seen that happen here in Victoria.
Do you think we'll see a national truth telling Commission?
Speaker 2 (12:54):
I was pessimistic after the europe Justice Commission finished. I
thought that that would be the only one that we
see in our lifetime. But on the back of Gharma
and there were several Albanezi government ministers up there. It's
definitely a message that's come a little strong from the
community that there needs to be a national truth telling inquiry.
(13:15):
It seems to me that the government is once again
open to the idea after ruling it out before the
last election. It's unfinished business. They're not going to go
towards or near a voice to Parliament again, that's clear.
Why would you if you were the government? But I'm
horseleusly more optimistic than I was six months ago.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
And what else would make the biggest.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
Difference to closing the gap. We need to see more
investment in communities instead of prisons. There's this thing called
justice reinvestment where you take money you would otherwise put
into prisons and into watchhouses and into detentions and facilities,
and you take that money and you put it directly
(14:00):
into communities and you let communities, through their own leadership,
work out a lot of the issues that are seeing
this overrepresentation within prisons. If we can do those things
as well as a truth telling commission nationally, you go
some way to changing the narrative. You change the narrative,
you change attitudes, You change attitudes. He can change outcomes.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
Well, Daniel, thank you for talking with me.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
Always a pleasure. Ruby.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
Also in the news today, the New South Wales Premiere
says it's not open season on the bridge after protesters
won the right to march across the Sydney Harbor Bridge
over the weekend. Chris Mins had stated his opposition to
the major pro Palestine rally taking place on the bridge,
but a Supreme Court judge ruled in favor of the protesters,
saying their case was compelling. The Premiere is now scrutinizing
(15:02):
the decision out of concern it could set a legal
precedent for the use of the bridge as a setting
for protest and the New South Wales Young Liberals want
the coalition to stop pursuing Trump style culture wars and
distance themselves from Sky News. According to a submission to
the party's election review, the group said they felt the
fringe right of the Liberal membership had been given too
(15:22):
much power over policy and had turned off women and
voters from diverse backgrounds. I'm Ruby Jones. This is seven
a m. Thanks Blestling
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