July 10, 2025 • 14 mins
Spotify has transformed how the world listens to music. But as it’s grown, the company behind it, and its founder Daniel Ek, have been reshaping more than just the music industry.
Ek has become a key figure in the global defence industry, investing more than a billion dollars into military technology based on artificial intelligence. Meanwhile, Spotify itself has embraced AI in ways that many artists say undermine their work.
Today, author of Mood Machine: The Rise of Spotify and the Costs of the Perfect Playlist Liz Pelly, on how Spotify’s pursuit for power and profit is changing music, and what listeners can do to take back control.
If you enjoy 7am, the best way you can support us is by making a contribution at 7ampodcast.com.au/support.
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Guest: Author of Mood Machine: The Rise of Spotify and the Costs of the Perfect Playlist Liz Pelly
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hi, I'm Daniel James, and you're listening at seven am.
Spotify has transformed the way the world listens to music.
But as it's grown, the company behind it and it's founder,
Daniel Eck, have been reshaping more than just the music industry.
Eck has become a key figure in the global defense industry,
(00:24):
investing hundreds of millions into artificial intelligence based military technology.
While Spotify itself has a brace to AI, it weighs
many artists say undermine their work today. Author and journalist
Liz Paley on how Spotify has pursued for power and profit,
is changing music, and what listeners can do to take
(00:44):
back control. It's Friday, July eleven. Liz, thanks for speaking
with me. Is fan that Daniel Lick has just invested.
I have a one billion Australian dollars into an ird
(01:06):
military company. You've been tracking Spotify and Daniel Lick fiez,
So can you tell me about X history when it
comes to investments like these?
Speaker 2 (01:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (01:15):
So, Daniel Ck first invested in this company called Helsing,
which is a AI military tech company, in twenty twenty one,
but not only invested in it, he also co authored
an op ed for Politico, where he was advocating for
increased investment into AI military technology. This latest tabline, I think,
(01:38):
you know, it was really interesting to me because not
only of the dollar amount that was attached to it,
but you know, they also announced that he'd become the
chairman of the board of this company, and Daniel Eck
and Spotify have really become like embedded in the defense industry.
In addition to Ck, also last year Spotify announced that
their new CFO with someone who had previously worked at SOB,
(02:03):
which is another Swedish defense company. So you know, there's
there's some deeper ties between Spotify and the military industrial complex,
even beyond just Daniel Ck.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
Daniel k has become very rich off the back of Spotify.
He's a Brillian name many times, Eva, can you tell
me about his rise and what he first envisached for
the platform.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
Yeah, So, Daniel X's background before Spotify was in the
advertising industry. In two thousand and six, he started this
company with Martin Lawrenson, who also had a background in
the advertising industry too, and their original idea was for
a company that would pair advertising revenue with free streaming media.
(02:46):
It wasn't even necessarily one hundred percent clear that this
was solely going to be a music company. I do
think that, Like, you know, over the years, it seems
like there have been attempts to kind of rebrand the
co founders of.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
Spotify as music guys.
Speaker 3 (03:01):
You know, if you look back, you can find press
photos of Daniel lackholding and guitar. There also was an
attempt to sort of shape this narrative that you know,
Spotify's goal was to save the music industry.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
So early on, like nineteen ninety nine and naps are
changed pretty much the whole world for me. I mean,
it's the internet service that changed my life the most.
I would say it's but the enfortunate part was obviously
they didn't pay artists. So really at that point when
naps are shut down, I started thinking about how can
you make it better?
Speaker 3 (03:34):
And and you know, Spotify was leveling the playing field
for independent musicians or contributing to democratizing music and culture.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
You know, these creators are really spectacular individual people who
want to connect, want to grow, and we want to
create that platform for them where they can thrive.
Speaker 3 (03:52):
And those are kind of like buzzwords that we heard
associated for like a lot of tech companies and platforms
in the mid twenty ten But it was important to
kind of like interrogate those those ideas a little bit
and look into, like, you know, okay, what's actually behind
this company, who's behind it, who serves to benefit from
the rise of streaming.
Speaker 1 (04:14):
We live in an age of streaming services. Headed Spotify
become the biggest music streaming service in the world, Can
you talk me through the business decisions that led to
that happening.
Speaker 3 (04:26):
Yeah, it's a good question, because you know, they weren't
necessarily the first. But one of the things that is
unique about Spotify is a rise of the Spotify playlist
as a cultural phenomenon and the strategic thinking that informed
the prioritization of a playlist as a way of growing
their subscriber base. Twenty sixteen to twenty nineteen was this
(04:48):
sort of time where the Spotify playlist playlists made by
in house editors, had this really kind of unique cultural
ate over how people discovered music, and just in the
music industry, was considered like a really important part of
the promotion process for a new record, for example. So
artists were being convinced that these editorial playlists were going
(05:11):
to be an important part of how they connected with
and sort of gained new fans in some ways. Around
twenty fifteen twenty sixteen, you started to see headlines in
the music business press claiming that Spotify was filling its
playlists with music by artists who didn't exist, with fake
artists in order to pay out fewer royalties. You know,
(05:34):
the public had been calling me as fake artists. There
actually was an internal term at Spotify perfect fit content,
which is this phrase that they used to describe music
commissions to fit certain moods and playlists with improved margins.
So it's clearly a cost saving initiative in order to
kind of squeeze value in some ways out of listeners,
(05:55):
but also musicians. There are so many different ways in
which processes of algorithmic recommendation and automated decision making have
shaped not just the sound of music, not just the
type of music, not just the reality of generative AI
music on these platforms, but shapes the way people think
about meaning in music and the way music is contextualized
(06:15):
and recommended. Spotify and other streaming services allow generative AI
content onto their platforms, and the generative a question, you
know only continues to be more urgent, and it says
a lot I think about the reality that you know,
not just Daniel Ck, but a lot of people who
end up in positions of power in the music industry
(06:37):
like aren't super.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
Interested in music.
Speaker 3 (06:40):
They're interested in growing their wealth. So yeah, definitely not music, guys.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
After the break, it's your new favorite middle of the
road old country band. Even real.
Speaker 4 (07:00):
List.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
We know Spotify uses AI to keep you listening on
their platform, so what do we know about their plans
for using Generative II further.
Speaker 3 (07:08):
Yeah, so it's hard to like speculate about what they
might do when it comes to generative AM music on
the platform. But you know, what we do know is
that there's like tens of thousands of Generative AI tracks
being uploaded to streaming services every day, and there's been this,
you know, story of this viral generative AI band called
(07:30):
the Velvet Sundown.
Speaker 4 (07:31):
If you've been on Spotify recently, you might have seen
a band called the Velvet Sundown on your feed. Now,
at first glance, it seems like any other indie rock group,
but none of their members actually exist. The Velvet Sundown
has now amassed almost one million monthly listeners, with songs
including Dust on the Wind and End the Pain among
(07:52):
their top hits. Take a Listenstrom, you know, one.
Speaker 3 (08:01):
Of the big threats of generative AI material is the
way in which it could potentially undercut the creative labor
of artists and users should be able to make informed
decisions about what they're listening to. And you could say, well,
you know, people should listen more closely or do their
own research. But I think that if the technology is
there to label this material, it should be labeled because
(08:24):
there are so many different concerns that people in the
artist community have about generative AI, about their music as
being users training data, how it will be credited, how
they'll be compensated, how compensation might be driven down by
the existence of generative AI music on these huming platforms.
Speaker 5 (08:43):
More than a thousand musicians are releasing a silent album
to campaign against the British government's plans to change copyright laws,
which could allow tech funds to train artificial intelligence models
using real performers' voices. Artists including Annie Lennox, Kate Bush,
and Andrew Lloyd Webber back the campaign. They say the
changes would rev us.
Speaker 3 (09:02):
Right now what we're seeing is a lot of the
discourse that has sort of played out around generative AI
music has been around deep fakes.
Speaker 4 (09:10):
I.
Speaker 6 (09:13):
At first, it's quite convincing. Creator ghost writer nine seven
seven claims the song is AI generated, artificial or not.
It quickly generated real numbers over six hundred thousand streams
on Spotify before Drake's label had it pulled, and that's important.
Speaker 3 (09:32):
It's important that you know if someone's likeness is being used,
that they have the ability to get that work removed.
But in reality, like the types of artists that are
going to have the legal muscle to actually be able
to do anything about that are pop stars, people who
have really big legal teams behind them. There's also all
sorts of ways in which generative AI undercuts the labor
(09:54):
of indie artists and DIY artists and smaller artists who
might not have the same name recognition or legal team
behind them to be able to take action against situations
like that.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
Sorry for the myriad of reasons, many of which we've
touched upon, people have deact divided this Spotify accounts honest
to form their music from Spotify. But the lightest Ioli
military investment was the last strual for many people. What
does that tell you?
Speaker 3 (10:19):
Well, you know, I think that because the economic model
is the same across the board for most streaming services,
I think people are going to start looking into these
other things like, well, does this streaming service have ties
to the military industrial complex? Does the streaming service use
generative AI music and not label it? I'm not someone
who is really in the business of like putting the
streaming services side by side and saying, well, this one
(10:41):
pays a few penny fractions more than this one, so like,
so you should be subscribed? Here was there? Like, I
don't really like playing the role of consumer guide because
the vast majority of streaming services operate under the same
Proorada model that is really, I think an unfair model,
you know. I'm I think that a better way of
doing streaming economics to be something called user centric, which
(11:04):
is basically like I pay ten dollars to a streaming service,
they take their thirty percent cut, the remaining money goes
to the artists I stream.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
And finally, is what would you say to people who
are stocking the convenience of using Spotify or rather streaming services?
How did I break free?
Speaker 3 (11:22):
Well, if as a music fan, you are concerned with
making sure that the money that you spend on music
doesn't accidentally end up in the military industrial complex, doesn't
accidentally end up going to a generative AI band. Your
best bet would be buying music directly from from the artists,
whether it's through band camp or through their website, or
through their record label, or through supporting an independent record store. Yeah, Like,
(11:45):
the combination of buying music directly plus listening to independent
community radio, for me, is kind of like a winning combination. Like,
I understand that music is vast. People listen to music
for different reasons, and people engage with music for different reasons.
So I don't expect every single person who really cares
about music to start building an MP three library again
(12:09):
and to buy an FM radio, even though those are
the things that I would.
Speaker 1 (12:13):
Totally suggest me too.
Speaker 3 (12:16):
I do think though, that like that's kind of like
our best bet in this moment, remembering that it's never
been super convenient to be a fan of independent music,
and that you know, being our participant in independent music
culture like does require a little bit of friction in
(12:37):
many ways.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
It's the inconvenience that Mike's are cool. Lise thanks so
much for speaking with this.
Speaker 3 (12:43):
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
Liz Pally's book is called Mood Machine, The Rise of
Spotify and the Costs of the Perfect Playlist. She'll be
speaking in Melbourne at the Wheelers Cinda on Thursday, twenty
ninth of August. Also in the news, anti Semitism in
Australia has reached deeply traveling levels, according to Anthony Albanesi.
(13:10):
The Prime Minister yesterday launched a report by Australia's Special
Envoid to combat anti Semitism, Gillian Siegel, which recommended sweeping
changes across universities, the media, policing and migration. Miss Siagal's
report recommends the government withhold funding from universities who failed
to stamp out anti Semitism, along with encouraging public broadcasters
(13:31):
to accurately and positively represent Jewish history and culture. It
also calls on the government to screen visa applicants for antisemitism.
The recommendations will now be considered by government and the
United Nations. Special raponteur on the Occupied Palestinian Territories has
been sanctioned by the Trump administration. Francesca Albanesi is a
(13:52):
human rights lawyer and independent expert appointed to report to
the UN on human rights issues. She has been outspoken
on allegations of war crimes in Gaza. When announcing the sanctions,
US Secretary of State Marco Rubio accused Miss Alberanezi of
unabashed anti Semitism and said she has expressed support for
terrorism and open contempt of the United States, Israel, and
(14:15):
the West. Seven Am was a daily show for Solstice Media.
It's made by Adigus Bastow, Shane Anderson, Chris Danegate, Ruby Jones,
Sarah mcvee, Travis Evans, Zoltenfet Joe and Me, Daniel James.
Our theme music is by Ned Beckley and Josh Hogan
of Envelope Boudier. Thanks for listening and have a great weekend.
Hi, I'm Daniel James, and you're listening at seven am.
Spotify has transformed the way the world listens to music.
But as it's grown, the company behind it and it's founder,
Daniel Eck, have been reshaping more than just the music industry.
Eck has become a key figure in the global defense industry,
(00:24):
investing hundreds of millions into artificial intelligence based military technology.
While Spotify itself has a brace to AI, it weighs
many artists say undermine their work today. Author and journalist
Liz Paley on how Spotify has pursued for power and profit,
is changing music, and what listeners can do to take
(00:44):
back control. It's Friday, July eleven. Liz, thanks for speaking
with me. Is fan that Daniel Lick has just invested.
I have a one billion Australian dollars into an ird
(01:06):
military company. You've been tracking Spotify and Daniel Lick fiez,
So can you tell me about X history when it
comes to investments like these?
Speaker 2 (01:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (01:15):
So, Daniel Ck first invested in this company called Helsing,
which is a AI military tech company, in twenty twenty one,
but not only invested in it, he also co authored
an op ed for Politico, where he was advocating for
increased investment into AI military technology. This latest tabline, I think,
(01:38):
you know, it was really interesting to me because not
only of the dollar amount that was attached to it,
but you know, they also announced that he'd become the
chairman of the board of this company, and Daniel Eck
and Spotify have really become like embedded in the defense industry.
In addition to Ck, also last year Spotify announced that
their new CFO with someone who had previously worked at SOB,
(02:03):
which is another Swedish defense company. So you know, there's
there's some deeper ties between Spotify and the military industrial complex,
even beyond just Daniel Ck.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
Daniel k has become very rich off the back of Spotify.
He's a Brillian name many times, Eva, can you tell
me about his rise and what he first envisached for
the platform.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
Yeah, So, Daniel X's background before Spotify was in the
advertising industry. In two thousand and six, he started this
company with Martin Lawrenson, who also had a background in
the advertising industry too, and their original idea was for
a company that would pair advertising revenue with free streaming media.
(02:46):
It wasn't even necessarily one hundred percent clear that this
was solely going to be a music company. I do
think that, Like, you know, over the years, it seems
like there have been attempts to kind of rebrand the
co founders of.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
Spotify as music guys.
Speaker 3 (03:01):
You know, if you look back, you can find press
photos of Daniel lackholding and guitar. There also was an
attempt to sort of shape this narrative that you know,
Spotify's goal was to save the music industry.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
So early on, like nineteen ninety nine and naps are
changed pretty much the whole world for me. I mean,
it's the internet service that changed my life the most.
I would say it's but the enfortunate part was obviously
they didn't pay artists. So really at that point when
naps are shut down, I started thinking about how can
you make it better?
Speaker 3 (03:34):
And and you know, Spotify was leveling the playing field
for independent musicians or contributing to democratizing music and culture.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
You know, these creators are really spectacular individual people who
want to connect, want to grow, and we want to
create that platform for them where they can thrive.
Speaker 3 (03:52):
And those are kind of like buzzwords that we heard
associated for like a lot of tech companies and platforms
in the mid twenty ten But it was important to
kind of like interrogate those those ideas a little bit
and look into, like, you know, okay, what's actually behind
this company, who's behind it, who serves to benefit from
the rise of streaming.
Speaker 1 (04:14):
We live in an age of streaming services. Headed Spotify
become the biggest music streaming service in the world, Can
you talk me through the business decisions that led to
that happening.
Speaker 3 (04:26):
Yeah, it's a good question, because you know, they weren't
necessarily the first. But one of the things that is
unique about Spotify is a rise of the Spotify playlist
as a cultural phenomenon and the strategic thinking that informed
the prioritization of a playlist as a way of growing
their subscriber base. Twenty sixteen to twenty nineteen was this
(04:48):
sort of time where the Spotify playlist playlists made by
in house editors, had this really kind of unique cultural
ate over how people discovered music, and just in the
music industry, was considered like a really important part of
the promotion process for a new record, for example. So
artists were being convinced that these editorial playlists were going
(05:11):
to be an important part of how they connected with
and sort of gained new fans in some ways. Around
twenty fifteen twenty sixteen, you started to see headlines in
the music business press claiming that Spotify was filling its
playlists with music by artists who didn't exist, with fake
artists in order to pay out fewer royalties. You know,
(05:34):
the public had been calling me as fake artists. There
actually was an internal term at Spotify perfect fit content,
which is this phrase that they used to describe music
commissions to fit certain moods and playlists with improved margins.
So it's clearly a cost saving initiative in order to
kind of squeeze value in some ways out of listeners,
(05:55):
but also musicians. There are so many different ways in
which processes of algorithmic recommendation and automated decision making have
shaped not just the sound of music, not just the
type of music, not just the reality of generative AI
music on these platforms, but shapes the way people think
about meaning in music and the way music is contextualized
(06:15):
and recommended. Spotify and other streaming services allow generative AI
content onto their platforms, and the generative a question, you
know only continues to be more urgent, and it says
a lot I think about the reality that you know,
not just Daniel Ck, but a lot of people who
end up in positions of power in the music industry
(06:37):
like aren't super.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
Interested in music.
Speaker 3 (06:40):
They're interested in growing their wealth. So yeah, definitely not music, guys.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
After the break, it's your new favorite middle of the
road old country band. Even real.
Speaker 4 (07:00):
List.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
We know Spotify uses AI to keep you listening on
their platform, so what do we know about their plans
for using Generative II further.
Speaker 3 (07:08):
Yeah, so it's hard to like speculate about what they
might do when it comes to generative AM music on
the platform. But you know, what we do know is
that there's like tens of thousands of Generative AI tracks
being uploaded to streaming services every day, and there's been this,
you know, story of this viral generative AI band called
(07:30):
the Velvet Sundown.
Speaker 4 (07:31):
If you've been on Spotify recently, you might have seen
a band called the Velvet Sundown on your feed. Now,
at first glance, it seems like any other indie rock group,
but none of their members actually exist. The Velvet Sundown
has now amassed almost one million monthly listeners, with songs
including Dust on the Wind and End the Pain among
(07:52):
their top hits. Take a Listenstrom, you know, one.
Speaker 3 (08:01):
Of the big threats of generative AI material is the
way in which it could potentially undercut the creative labor
of artists and users should be able to make informed
decisions about what they're listening to. And you could say, well,
you know, people should listen more closely or do their
own research. But I think that if the technology is
there to label this material, it should be labeled because
(08:24):
there are so many different concerns that people in the
artist community have about generative AI, about their music as
being users training data, how it will be credited, how
they'll be compensated, how compensation might be driven down by
the existence of generative AI music on these huming platforms.
Speaker 5 (08:43):
More than a thousand musicians are releasing a silent album
to campaign against the British government's plans to change copyright laws,
which could allow tech funds to train artificial intelligence models
using real performers' voices. Artists including Annie Lennox, Kate Bush,
and Andrew Lloyd Webber back the campaign. They say the
changes would rev us.
Speaker 3 (09:02):
Right now what we're seeing is a lot of the
discourse that has sort of played out around generative AI
music has been around deep fakes.
Speaker 4 (09:10):
I.
Speaker 6 (09:13):
At first, it's quite convincing. Creator ghost writer nine seven
seven claims the song is AI generated, artificial or not.
It quickly generated real numbers over six hundred thousand streams
on Spotify before Drake's label had it pulled, and that's important.
Speaker 3 (09:32):
It's important that you know if someone's likeness is being used,
that they have the ability to get that work removed.
But in reality, like the types of artists that are
going to have the legal muscle to actually be able
to do anything about that are pop stars, people who
have really big legal teams behind them. There's also all
sorts of ways in which generative AI undercuts the labor
(09:54):
of indie artists and DIY artists and smaller artists who
might not have the same name recognition or legal team
behind them to be able to take action against situations
like that.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
Sorry for the myriad of reasons, many of which we've
touched upon, people have deact divided this Spotify accounts honest
to form their music from Spotify. But the lightest Ioli
military investment was the last strual for many people. What
does that tell you?
Speaker 3 (10:19):
Well, you know, I think that because the economic model
is the same across the board for most streaming services,
I think people are going to start looking into these
other things like, well, does this streaming service have ties
to the military industrial complex? Does the streaming service use
generative AI music and not label it? I'm not someone
who is really in the business of like putting the
streaming services side by side and saying, well, this one
(10:41):
pays a few penny fractions more than this one, so like,
so you should be subscribed? Here was there? Like, I
don't really like playing the role of consumer guide because
the vast majority of streaming services operate under the same
Proorada model that is really, I think an unfair model,
you know. I'm I think that a better way of
doing streaming economics to be something called user centric, which
(11:04):
is basically like I pay ten dollars to a streaming service,
they take their thirty percent cut, the remaining money goes
to the artists I stream.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
And finally, is what would you say to people who
are stocking the convenience of using Spotify or rather streaming services?
How did I break free?
Speaker 3 (11:22):
Well, if as a music fan, you are concerned with
making sure that the money that you spend on music
doesn't accidentally end up in the military industrial complex, doesn't
accidentally end up going to a generative AI band. Your
best bet would be buying music directly from from the artists,
whether it's through band camp or through their website, or
through their record label, or through supporting an independent record store. Yeah, Like,
(11:45):
the combination of buying music directly plus listening to independent
community radio, for me, is kind of like a winning combination. Like,
I understand that music is vast. People listen to music
for different reasons, and people engage with music for different reasons.
So I don't expect every single person who really cares
about music to start building an MP three library again
(12:09):
and to buy an FM radio, even though those are
the things that I would.
Speaker 1 (12:13):
Totally suggest me too.
Speaker 3 (12:16):
I do think though, that like that's kind of like
our best bet in this moment, remembering that it's never
been super convenient to be a fan of independent music,
and that you know, being our participant in independent music
culture like does require a little bit of friction in
(12:37):
many ways.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
It's the inconvenience that Mike's are cool. Lise thanks so
much for speaking with this.
Speaker 3 (12:43):
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
Liz Pally's book is called Mood Machine, The Rise of
Spotify and the Costs of the Perfect Playlist. She'll be
speaking in Melbourne at the Wheelers Cinda on Thursday, twenty
ninth of August. Also in the news, anti Semitism in
Australia has reached deeply traveling levels, according to Anthony Albanesi.
(13:10):
The Prime Minister yesterday launched a report by Australia's Special
Envoid to combat anti Semitism, Gillian Siegel, which recommended sweeping
changes across universities, the media, policing and migration. Miss Siagal's
report recommends the government withhold funding from universities who failed
to stamp out anti Semitism, along with encouraging public broadcasters
(13:31):
to accurately and positively represent Jewish history and culture. It
also calls on the government to screen visa applicants for antisemitism.
The recommendations will now be considered by government and the
United Nations. Special raponteur on the Occupied Palestinian Territories has
been sanctioned by the Trump administration. Francesca Albanesi is a
(13:52):
human rights lawyer and independent expert appointed to report to
the UN on human rights issues. She has been outspoken
on allegations of war crimes in Gaza. When announcing the sanctions,
US Secretary of State Marco Rubio accused Miss Alberanezi of
unabashed anti Semitism and said she has expressed support for
terrorism and open contempt of the United States, Israel, and
(14:15):
the West. Seven Am was a daily show for Solstice Media.
It's made by Adigus Bastow, Shane Anderson, Chris Danegate, Ruby Jones,
Sarah mcvee, Travis Evans, Zoltenfet Joe and Me, Daniel James.
Our theme music is by Ned Beckley and Josh Hogan
of Envelope Boudier. Thanks for listening and have a great weekend.
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