August 17, 2025 • 13 mins
When the Australian government appointed its envoy to combat Islamophobia, it came amid escalating violence in Gaza.
But signs have emerged that the envoy chosen - Aftab Malik - appears to see his role as separate from the conflict in the Middle East.
Now there are questions about why Malik was chosen, and concern about whether his report - due any day now - will go far enough to address Islamophobia in this county.
Today, Crikey reporter Daanyal Saeed on the secret briefings the envoy is holding, and the disquiet over how he’s approaching his role.
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Guest: Crikey reporter Daanyal Saeed
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
The conflict that is occurring in the Middle East has
caused a great deal of grief for the Jewish community,
for members of the Islamic Palestinian communities Australians.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
When the Australian government appointed its Envoy to combat Islamophobia,
it came amid escalating violence in Gaza.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
Shortly we'll also be announcing an envoy on Islamophobia. That
will be important as well.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
But scigns have emerged that the envoy chosen, Aftab Marlik,
appears to see his role as separate from the conflict
in the Middle East. Now there are questions about why
Marlik was chosen and concern about whether his report, due
to any day now, will go far enough to address
Islamophobia in this country. I'm Ruby Jones and you're listening
(00:53):
to seven AM today Craigy Reporter Danny said on the
secret briefings the envoy is holding and the disquiet over
how he's approaching his role. It's Monday, August eighteen, So
(01:16):
you have been looking into the private briefings that the
Special Envoy to Combat Islamophobia has been holding. It turns
out with MPs as he prepares to make his report public,
tell me how you found out that these briefings were happening.
Speaker 3 (01:30):
So we got a tip off from a stakeholder and
from there it all snowboard. After Malik, the Special envo
for Combating Islamophobia, we know, gave a series of briefings
to federal MPs and canber in late July. He invited
every member of the federal Upper and Lower House, and
so we have a number of people that came to
(01:52):
those meetings. We know that Green Senator David Tubridge, Independent
Senator Adam mcpayman, Small Business Minister n L, Assistant Defense
Minister Peter Khalil, the Shadow Attorney General Julian Lisa, the
Assistant Citizenship Minister Julian Hill all attended these meetings. A
number of people that spoke to us from those briefings,
(02:14):
and they weren't just MPs, they were MP staffers as well.
So there were a few people in these meetings told
us that they were really surprised about the approach that
Aftabmak took.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
Okay, so what was it exactly about his position that
left people in the room surprised?
Speaker 3 (02:32):
He didn't mention the war in Gaza at all until
he was prompted by an MP, and this was the
most surprising part for pretty much everybody that I spoke to.
Aftabmalak doesn't see Islamophobia is sort of immediately connected with
the war in Gaza, and subsequently he draws this distinction
(02:54):
between anti Palestinian racism and Islamophobia, and that's a position
that is I'm not contested, but that's one of the
key things that sort of came out of the meeting.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
Right, So he didn't mention Gaza until he was asked
about it. But when he was asked, what did he say?
Speaker 3 (03:12):
He said that he was only responsible for looking into islamophobia.
Those are the terms of his remit and he pointed
to a public statement by the president of the Australia
Palestine Advocacy Network NASA Mashni, and he said that this
was the basis of his view. Then an MP got
(03:33):
up and said, well, I've just spoken to NASA ma
Ashni and that's not his view at all. He believes
that anti Palestinian racism and Islamophobia are really intimately linked.
So we spoke to NASA and NASA senter screenshots of
conversations that he has with Afdab Malik where he really,
(03:54):
really passionately implores Aftab Malik to consider that link, and
he is really strident in that view, and he over
a significant period of time implores af Tab Malik to
consider that link. And at various points af Tab Malik
is quite cautious in all of his language, and I
(04:16):
would characterize him as being a quite circumspeaking, quite cautious
individual in general.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
And so tell me a bit more than about Malik,
who he is and how he ended up in this appointment.
Speaker 3 (04:26):
So he's a bureaucrat needs from the UK, is a
British Pakistani Australian bureaucratination.
Speaker 4 (04:33):
And the ordinariness of it was what was very surprising,
the fact that Islamophobia is taking place in very normal circumstances,
in normal surroundings such as shopping malls, at the beaches,
on the public transport, even in schools.
Speaker 3 (04:50):
And it was a criticism of him when he was
appointed in the first place. There was a concern that
someone from the UK wouldn't necessarily understand the Australian context,
someone who wasn't here for the Cronulla riots, who wasn't
here for christ Church, who wasn't here for nine to eleven,
who wasn't here for the Tony Abbott era sort of
(05:11):
stop the boat's discourse.
Speaker 4 (05:13):
We know from evidence that global events can directly lead
to Islamophobia. I mean, for example, what what happened in
Christchurch and twenty nineteen result in a fourfold increase of
smophobia here in Australia that was committed by.
Speaker 3 (05:28):
What we do know is that he wasn't the government's
first choice. We know that the government went to the
like Savali Kadri, who is a teacher in Western Sydney,
or Jamal Rifi, who is a really high profile supporter
of Western Sydney Front bencher Tony Burke. We know that
they went to at least four people and that has
resulted in a number of issues. There's a view that
(05:54):
he's a bureaucrat that has a background in combating terrors
and counter terrorism. The view of that is that that
stigmatizing work in the community, and that's not a universal view,
but it's a significant view. This idea that employing a
(06:14):
career bureaucrat is a conservative appointment and one that is
deliberately conservative, and that the government is looking for someone
to basically rub a stamp whatever social cohesion policies it
might want to put through or not put through. So
the government made a decision at some point that they
(06:34):
wanted aftab Marlik in his style of research and community consultation.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
Coming up. Why Aft tab Marlik ended up with next
to no staff, So, Danny, since the government made that
decision to appoint Af tab Malik, what do we know
about how his offer has been operating.
Speaker 3 (07:01):
There's a report in the Canberra Times at the end
of July that said that his office was empty almost
a year on from being appointed, and that he's been
working with staff that have been secondered from the Home
Affairs Department and that they've been shared with Gillian Siegel. Now,
I spoke to a number of sources that were familiar
with how that office works and the recruitment for it,
and they told me that Muslims didn't want to work
(07:24):
for this guy, not because they had problems with him,
but because there was a federal election due and there
were genuine fears that a Dutton led coalition government would
abolish the office.
Speaker 5 (07:37):
And sorry, in terms of the on boy, look, if
it's making a difference, if it's helping, then happy to
continue it. But I think there's a lot of frustration
at the moment about what is being listened to from
what's being advised by the envoys.
Speaker 3 (07:51):
So obviously, the now former Opposition leader has a really
long history of antagonistic remarks about the Muslim community, really
really didn't have a strong relationship with them. He previously
called Lemodes immigration to Australia or a mistake. He just last
year he suggested banning refugees from Gaza. So there was
(08:12):
a real concern that the office wouldn't exist if the
Coalition won government. And he's now starting to recruit for
the office. But it's almost been a year since he
was appointed and he's had to do basically all of
the work for himself outside of the minor secretarial work
conducted by the Department of Home Affairs.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
Right, And as you've said, it seems like the Envoy
is perhaps trying to distance his work from dealing with
the domestic impacts of the war in Gaza. So what
is he actually focusing on them? What has he said
he wants to see come out of this process.
Speaker 3 (08:49):
We know that the question of media coverage is a
touch point for him because he said so in a
slide that we've seen from his press. But as we
know in this country, changing the media narrative is a
very vague policy prescription, so we don't know what that's
(09:10):
going to look like, and we don't know how that's
going to be actionable. He talks about promoting public awareness
and understanding of the impacts of Islamophobia, and that same
PowerPoint slide that I just mentioned a success for him
looks like and I'm quoting here, and this is the
extent of which he's described it. Government accepts recommendations change
(09:33):
media landscape, cultural shift, so there's not a lot of
detail here.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
Yeah, so it sounds like there was an opportunity here
for something that did really grapple with Islamophobia in Australia,
and there is this fear now that that won't happen,
that won't be a case the case. So I suppose,
as we wait to see what is in this report,
what do you think could actually work?
Speaker 3 (09:58):
I think the key to the the report being meaningful
for Muslim Australians is a move away from these buzzwords
social cohesion, interfaith dialogue, research development round tables. The fear
is that this report will be less concrete than it
(10:19):
perhaps needs to be. The fear is that we're going
to have another call as we sort of so often
have had since nine to eleven, really for interfaith dialogue,
for community consultation, for more research, and that's not necessarily
(10:40):
what community leaders want now. The uptick in Islamophobia is extraordinary,
and it remains to be over the last two years
or so. So what I think the Muslim community want
fundamentally is when more enforcement receive those complaints that they
are seen to be and that they do take them seriously.
(11:03):
But beyond that, the idea is perhaps something just more
concrete than those buzzwords that we keep seeing. There might
be a school of thought out there that and this
may be the case with aftab Malik, that we simply
need to actually be doing all of these different buzzwords.
(11:23):
We need to actually commit to innovate dialogue, and we
haven't been doing them so thus far. But I dare
say from the people that I've spoken to in the
Muslim community, they're a little bit tired of dinners and
round tables.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
Well, Dannie, thank you so much for your time and
for your reporting on this.
Speaker 3 (11:43):
Thank you very much, Ruby, thanks for having me.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
You can read Danny say It's reporting at craggy dot
com dot aqu Also in the news today, eight, Prime
Minister Anthony Alberesi said Russia's invasion of Ukraine must not
be rewarded after the Trump Putin summit ended with no
(12:07):
ceasefire deal made. Trump and Putin met in Alaska on
Saturday for what had been expected to be a historic
summit discussing potentially ending the war in Ukraine. After a
meeting that lasted for nearly three hours, the pair ended
their conversations early and without a ceasefire agreement. Anthony Alberizi
said the Australian government wanted a ceasefire and the sovereignty
(12:28):
of Ukraine protected. And the Islamic Council of Victoria has
reported an increase in Islamophobia, warning that the number of
victims is likely far higher than reported. On Saturday, the
Council held its first conference on Islamophobia, with politicians, police,
religious leaders and academics among those in attendance at the
(12:49):
event in Melbourne. In a report released to coincide with
the conference, it estimated more than eighty five percent of
Islamophobia incidents were not reported. I'm Ruby Jones seven am
see you tomorrow,
The conflict that is occurring in the Middle East has
caused a great deal of grief for the Jewish community,
for members of the Islamic Palestinian communities Australians.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
When the Australian government appointed its Envoy to combat Islamophobia,
it came amid escalating violence in Gaza.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
Shortly we'll also be announcing an envoy on Islamophobia. That
will be important as well.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
But scigns have emerged that the envoy chosen, Aftab Marlik,
appears to see his role as separate from the conflict
in the Middle East. Now there are questions about why
Marlik was chosen and concern about whether his report, due
to any day now, will go far enough to address
Islamophobia in this country. I'm Ruby Jones and you're listening
(00:53):
to seven AM today Craigy Reporter Danny said on the
secret briefings the envoy is holding and the disquiet over
how he's approaching his role. It's Monday, August eighteen, So
(01:16):
you have been looking into the private briefings that the
Special Envoy to Combat Islamophobia has been holding. It turns
out with MPs as he prepares to make his report public,
tell me how you found out that these briefings were happening.
Speaker 3 (01:30):
So we got a tip off from a stakeholder and
from there it all snowboard. After Malik, the Special envo
for Combating Islamophobia, we know, gave a series of briefings
to federal MPs and canber in late July. He invited
every member of the federal Upper and Lower House, and
so we have a number of people that came to
(01:52):
those meetings. We know that Green Senator David Tubridge, Independent
Senator Adam mcpayman, Small Business Minister n L, Assistant Defense
Minister Peter Khalil, the Shadow Attorney General Julian Lisa, the
Assistant Citizenship Minister Julian Hill all attended these meetings. A
number of people that spoke to us from those briefings,
(02:14):
and they weren't just MPs, they were MP staffers as well.
So there were a few people in these meetings told
us that they were really surprised about the approach that
Aftabmak took.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
Okay, so what was it exactly about his position that
left people in the room surprised?
Speaker 3 (02:32):
He didn't mention the war in Gaza at all until
he was prompted by an MP, and this was the
most surprising part for pretty much everybody that I spoke to.
Aftabmalak doesn't see Islamophobia is sort of immediately connected with
the war in Gaza, and subsequently he draws this distinction
(02:54):
between anti Palestinian racism and Islamophobia, and that's a position
that is I'm not contested, but that's one of the
key things that sort of came out of the meeting.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
Right, So he didn't mention Gaza until he was asked
about it. But when he was asked, what did he say?
Speaker 3 (03:12):
He said that he was only responsible for looking into islamophobia.
Those are the terms of his remit and he pointed
to a public statement by the president of the Australia
Palestine Advocacy Network NASA Mashni, and he said that this
was the basis of his view. Then an MP got
(03:33):
up and said, well, I've just spoken to NASA ma
Ashni and that's not his view at all. He believes
that anti Palestinian racism and Islamophobia are really intimately linked.
So we spoke to NASA and NASA senter screenshots of
conversations that he has with Afdab Malik where he really,
(03:54):
really passionately implores Aftab Malik to consider that link, and
he is really strident in that view, and he over
a significant period of time implores af Tab Malik to
consider that link. And at various points af Tab Malik
is quite cautious in all of his language, and I
(04:16):
would characterize him as being a quite circumspeaking, quite cautious
individual in general.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
And so tell me a bit more than about Malik,
who he is and how he ended up in this appointment.
Speaker 3 (04:26):
So he's a bureaucrat needs from the UK, is a
British Pakistani Australian bureaucratination.
Speaker 4 (04:33):
And the ordinariness of it was what was very surprising,
the fact that Islamophobia is taking place in very normal circumstances,
in normal surroundings such as shopping malls, at the beaches,
on the public transport, even in schools.
Speaker 3 (04:50):
And it was a criticism of him when he was
appointed in the first place. There was a concern that
someone from the UK wouldn't necessarily understand the Australian context,
someone who wasn't here for the Cronulla riots, who wasn't
here for christ Church, who wasn't here for nine to eleven,
who wasn't here for the Tony Abbott era sort of
(05:11):
stop the boat's discourse.
Speaker 4 (05:13):
We know from evidence that global events can directly lead
to Islamophobia. I mean, for example, what what happened in
Christchurch and twenty nineteen result in a fourfold increase of
smophobia here in Australia that was committed by.
Speaker 3 (05:28):
What we do know is that he wasn't the government's
first choice. We know that the government went to the
like Savali Kadri, who is a teacher in Western Sydney,
or Jamal Rifi, who is a really high profile supporter
of Western Sydney Front bencher Tony Burke. We know that
they went to at least four people and that has
resulted in a number of issues. There's a view that
(05:54):
he's a bureaucrat that has a background in combating terrors
and counter terrorism. The view of that is that that
stigmatizing work in the community, and that's not a universal view,
but it's a significant view. This idea that employing a
(06:14):
career bureaucrat is a conservative appointment and one that is
deliberately conservative, and that the government is looking for someone
to basically rub a stamp whatever social cohesion policies it
might want to put through or not put through. So
the government made a decision at some point that they
(06:34):
wanted aftab Marlik in his style of research and community consultation.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
Coming up. Why Aft tab Marlik ended up with next
to no staff, So, Danny, since the government made that
decision to appoint Af tab Malik, what do we know
about how his offer has been operating.
Speaker 3 (07:01):
There's a report in the Canberra Times at the end
of July that said that his office was empty almost
a year on from being appointed, and that he's been
working with staff that have been secondered from the Home
Affairs Department and that they've been shared with Gillian Siegel. Now,
I spoke to a number of sources that were familiar
with how that office works and the recruitment for it,
and they told me that Muslims didn't want to work
(07:24):
for this guy, not because they had problems with him,
but because there was a federal election due and there
were genuine fears that a Dutton led coalition government would
abolish the office.
Speaker 5 (07:37):
And sorry, in terms of the on boy, look, if
it's making a difference, if it's helping, then happy to
continue it. But I think there's a lot of frustration
at the moment about what is being listened to from
what's being advised by the envoys.
Speaker 3 (07:51):
So obviously, the now former Opposition leader has a really
long history of antagonistic remarks about the Muslim community, really
really didn't have a strong relationship with them. He previously
called Lemodes immigration to Australia or a mistake. He just last
year he suggested banning refugees from Gaza. So there was
(08:12):
a real concern that the office wouldn't exist if the
Coalition won government. And he's now starting to recruit for
the office. But it's almost been a year since he
was appointed and he's had to do basically all of
the work for himself outside of the minor secretarial work
conducted by the Department of Home Affairs.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
Right, And as you've said, it seems like the Envoy
is perhaps trying to distance his work from dealing with
the domestic impacts of the war in Gaza. So what
is he actually focusing on them? What has he said
he wants to see come out of this process.
Speaker 3 (08:49):
We know that the question of media coverage is a
touch point for him because he said so in a
slide that we've seen from his press. But as we
know in this country, changing the media narrative is a
very vague policy prescription, so we don't know what that's
(09:10):
going to look like, and we don't know how that's
going to be actionable. He talks about promoting public awareness
and understanding of the impacts of Islamophobia, and that same
PowerPoint slide that I just mentioned a success for him
looks like and I'm quoting here, and this is the
extent of which he's described it. Government accepts recommendations change
(09:33):
media landscape, cultural shift, so there's not a lot of
detail here.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
Yeah, so it sounds like there was an opportunity here
for something that did really grapple with Islamophobia in Australia,
and there is this fear now that that won't happen,
that won't be a case the case. So I suppose,
as we wait to see what is in this report,
what do you think could actually work?
Speaker 3 (09:58):
I think the key to the the report being meaningful
for Muslim Australians is a move away from these buzzwords
social cohesion, interfaith dialogue, research development round tables. The fear
is that this report will be less concrete than it
(10:19):
perhaps needs to be. The fear is that we're going
to have another call as we sort of so often
have had since nine to eleven, really for interfaith dialogue,
for community consultation, for more research, and that's not necessarily
(10:40):
what community leaders want now. The uptick in Islamophobia is extraordinary,
and it remains to be over the last two years
or so. So what I think the Muslim community want
fundamentally is when more enforcement receive those complaints that they
are seen to be and that they do take them seriously.
(11:03):
But beyond that, the idea is perhaps something just more
concrete than those buzzwords that we keep seeing. There might
be a school of thought out there that and this
may be the case with aftab Malik, that we simply
need to actually be doing all of these different buzzwords.
(11:23):
We need to actually commit to innovate dialogue, and we
haven't been doing them so thus far. But I dare
say from the people that I've spoken to in the
Muslim community, they're a little bit tired of dinners and
round tables.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
Well, Dannie, thank you so much for your time and
for your reporting on this.
Speaker 3 (11:43):
Thank you very much, Ruby, thanks for having me.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
You can read Danny say It's reporting at craggy dot
com dot aqu Also in the news today, eight, Prime
Minister Anthony Alberesi said Russia's invasion of Ukraine must not
be rewarded after the Trump Putin summit ended with no
(12:07):
ceasefire deal made. Trump and Putin met in Alaska on
Saturday for what had been expected to be a historic
summit discussing potentially ending the war in Ukraine. After a
meeting that lasted for nearly three hours, the pair ended
their conversations early and without a ceasefire agreement. Anthony Alberizi
said the Australian government wanted a ceasefire and the sovereignty
(12:28):
of Ukraine protected. And the Islamic Council of Victoria has
reported an increase in Islamophobia, warning that the number of
victims is likely far higher than reported. On Saturday, the
Council held its first conference on Islamophobia, with politicians, police,
religious leaders and academics among those in attendance at the
(12:49):
event in Melbourne. In a report released to coincide with
the conference, it estimated more than eighty five percent of
Islamophobia incidents were not reported. I'm Ruby Jones seven am
see you tomorrow,
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