August 25, 2025 • 14 mins
As Israel's assault on Gaza city continues, Israeli aircraft and tanks have pounded the eastern and northern outskirts of the city, destroying buildings and homes.
It comes as a record number of Australians turned out this weekend in protest against the war – and as the relationship between the Australian and Israeli government worsens.
But while Australia moves to recognise a Palestinian state, it continues its military and trade relations with Israel, supplying parts that allow planes to drop bombs on Gaza.
Today, co-founder of Declassified Australia and author of The Palestine Laboratory Antony Loewenstein on Australia, Israel and the difference between what we say – and what we do.
If you enjoy 7am, the best way you can support us is by making a contribution at 7ampodcast.com.au/support.
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Guest: Co-founder of Declassified Australia and author of The Palestine Laboratory Antony Loewenstein
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Sunrise over Gaza City and the sound of Israeli surveillance
drones is constant.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
As Israel's assault on Gaza City continues. Israeli aircraft and
tanks have pounded the eastern and northern outskirts of the city,
destroying buildings and.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
Homes, searching out what the Israelis claim other final strongholds
of Hamas.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
It comes as a record number of Australians turned out
this weekend in protest against the war, and as the
relationship between the Australian and Israeli government worsens. But while
Australia moves to recognize a Palestinian state, it continues its
military and trade relations with Israel, supplying parts that allow
planes to drop bombs on Gaza. I'm Ruby Jones and
(00:49):
you're listening to seven AM today. Co founder of Declassified
Australia and author of The Palestine Laboratory, Anthony Lowenstein on Australia,
Israel and the difference between what we say and what
we do. It's Tuesday, August twenty six. Anthony, You've spent
(01:13):
a lot of time investigating Israel's weapons and surveillance capability.
I wanted to begin this conversation talking about one weapon
in particular, that is the F thirty five fighter jets.
So tell me a bit about it.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
So this is a jet that's been developed over decades,
principally by Lockheed Martin, which is an American defense company,
one of the biggest in the world, and a number
of countries have this plane. Israel's not the only one
that does, but Israel was the first country in twenty
eighteen that actually used it in war.
Speaker 4 (01:43):
At Lockheed Martin, our mission is to keep you mission.
Speaker 3 (01:47):
Ready, and the F thirty five Lightning II delivers.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
When advanced engineering matters most when air superiority requires superior technology,
when precision means you're for our possibilities. The F thirty
five is a step ahead.
Speaker 3 (02:04):
And there's something called a global supply chain, which essentially
means that a number of countries provide weapons parts that
are usually sent via the US to Israel. Sometimes they
go directly to Israel. So we're talking about countries like Australia,
the UK, Holland and others provide parts. For example, Australia
provides the Bombay doors. Australia provides parts of the visor
(02:30):
that the pilot would use so Australia's role in this
is quite central to the ability for that plane to fly.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
Okay, so tell me more about that part, the Bombay
doors and Australia's role in the supply chain.
Speaker 3 (02:48):
Essentially, when the plane monts to drop a bomb over
Gaza or anywhere, the mechanism that allows that door to
open and then the bomb to drop is made in Australia.
No one else in the world makes this part. There
are companies, for example, in Melbourne and in Brisbane and elsewhere.
They send these parts, mostly to the US who then
(03:10):
construct it in the US and then mostly it's sent
to Israel. Now the companies themselves when they get asked,
and we as they classified, have sometimes written to these
companies to ask what they're doing and how it works,
and what they're contributing to and are they aware that
they are potentially in violation of international law by contributing
(03:30):
to a plane that is being used over Gaza When
gross human rights abuses are occurring. The response is either
no response or saying that we do everything legally. That's
the short version.
Speaker 5 (03:42):
If there is a concern on Australia's part about international
law being violated here, I'm just wondering what further steps
might be taken here. Germany is going to block or
suspend arm sales to Israel that could be used in Gaza.
What about the armored steel and the F thirty five
components that are stray contributes? Would they be blocked?
Speaker 3 (04:02):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (04:02):
Well, let's be clear, we don't supply weapons to Israel.
Speaker 5 (04:06):
The armed steel and the thirty five components is what
I'm asking about.
Speaker 3 (04:11):
Well, well, we're inn F thirty five country and we
have been that for one of the ways that Australia,
Australian government officials, Defense Department officials and again it's not
unique to Australia, but have been doing since October seven,
have been saying that this part is dual use. This
is not a weapon. That's simply a piece of metal
(04:32):
that is attached to a plane, but the fact is
that the plane needs that to be able to open
a space that allows a bomb to fall.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
We are not supplying weapons to Israel.
Speaker 3 (04:44):
And when Richard Miles was on Insiders on ABC a
few weeks ago, he said his words, we're an F
thirty five nation, and he said that proudly for decades.
Now that's true, but the F thirty five is not
some benign plane that simply flies around at air shows.
It's a deadly weapon that is used in war and
(05:06):
is currently being used over Gaza since October seven. So
what legal experts have said to us are declassified, but
also have said in the public, is that not just
austrating government ministers, but the weapons manufacturer but also the
producers of these parts could be legally vulnerable to court
(05:31):
cases in years to come for contributing to a system
that is used by a nation credibly accused of genocide.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
So tell me about that. Have we seen court cases
against any other countries that are exporting parts to Israel?
Speaker 3 (05:47):
So in the UK, legal experts and others took the
British government to court on this very issue, essentially saying
that Britain is contributing to the F thirty five supply chain,
contributing and supporting what Israel is doing in Gaza. The
British government should stop. Now. The British government's response, and
again i'm paraphrasing, people can find the exact words online,
is this would deeply negatively impact our relationship with America
(06:12):
and the US Alliance, and therefore we can't stop it.
Speaker 4 (06:15):
Indeed, the effects of suspending all licenses for the F
thirty five program would undermine the global F thirty flight
supply chain that is vital for the security of the UK.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
Are allies in this.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
And if we were to stop that, they couldn't be
used by other countries in the other conflicts, including those
in which we are involved.
Speaker 3 (06:37):
And the High Court found in the government's favor, there's
going to be an appeal in Holland. The Dutch government
was taken to court. There's been various decisions and appeals.
The current situation is as far as I understand, at
least officially, that the Dutch government does no longer send
weapons parts to Israel, and I have no doubt that
(06:58):
if this went to court in Australia, you would find
the Australian government saying, and again are my words not theirs,
we cannot stop sending these parts to America to Israel
because that would negatively impact our relationship with Washington. I
think people have to understand that there is a profound
(07:19):
disconnect between the increasing angry rehtoric we hear from Penny Wog,
Anthony Albernezi, Tony Burke about what Israel is doing and
the reality of what our policy is that we continue
to be a close alive of Israel, supporting them economically,
financially and militarily, despite the growing anger that we hear
(07:42):
in the voice of Australian government ministers.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
Coming up what sanctions could look like.
Speaker 4 (08:02):
Now you've written a withering letter to Australian Prime Minister
Anthony ALBANIZI, why do you believe history will remember him
as a weak politician?
Speaker 6 (08:14):
Well, look, I'm sure he has a reputable record as
a public servant, but I think his record is forever
tarnished by the weakness that he showed in the face
of these commace terrorist monsters Anthony.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
Last week, tensions between Australia and Israel intensified, with Benjamin
Netnya who repeatedly calling Anthony Albanesi week. This of course
follows Albanesi saying that he'll recognize the Palestinian state. So
how do you see the frame of diplomacy impacting the
deals that you've laid out.
Speaker 3 (08:47):
Look, a diplomatic relationship, obviously between Australia and Israel is
not in good shape. But I think it's worth saying
that I think a lot of this is kabuki theater.
For example, days after the Russian invasion of Ukrainian twenty
twenty two, Australia was putting on sanctions on the Russian government,
Russian businesses, Russian oligarchs. None of that similar behavior has
(09:08):
been done against Israel, Israeli companies, Australian companies involved with Israel.
None of that has happened.
Speaker 2 (09:15):
And tell me a bit about which countries have actually
stopped exporting. Germany, for instance, is saying that there is
a partial arms export band now.
Speaker 3 (09:24):
Right, That's what Germany is saying. That's what the British
have said as well. It is it's nonsense. Certain things
are not maybe being exported anymore. But Germany is the
second biggest provider of weapons to Israel after the US,
has been for years. It massively expanded after October seven.
(09:44):
And that's a lot to do with what German officials
see as their historical responsibility because of their complicity in
the Holocaust in World War two, and therefore they see
it as their moral duty to support Israel regardless of
its actions. It's worth saying, though, that public opinion polls
(10:04):
in Germany have found for months that the majority of
Germans want Germany to stop selling weapons or weapons parts.
But thus far, despite what the Germans are saying, there
is still a weapons flow. For example, after that announcement,
the Germans still signed a submarine deal with Israel. In
other words, the flow of armaments has not stopped. Australia, Britain, France,
(10:29):
all these countries in the last months that have come
out clearly and said we're going to recognize a Palestinian
state in September, they're still trading. They're still sending weapons parts.
Some of them are sending actual weapons. The British government,
for example, is training some Israeli soldiers on British soil.
So none of these relationships have stopped or slowed down.
(10:53):
What has been so frustrating is that the vast, vast
bulk of the Australian mainstream media have not challenge the
Australian government enough on these questions and simply have accepted
when a government minister says, well, we don't sell weapons.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
To Israel the end, why do you think that is?
Speaker 3 (11:11):
I think there is still a fear in many parts
of the mainstream press of being seen to be too
critical of Israel because you are you fear being accused
of anti Semitism by the Israel lobby or others. I
think there's also, frankly, a deep strain of profound racism
(11:32):
that exists in much of the Australian press. I'm not
saying every journalist is racist, That's not what I mean.
What I mean is that there is an unwillingness to
somehow accept or believe, and this is I'm talking about
management level here to accept or believe, for example, that
the over two hundred Palestinian journalists who have been murdered
by Israel are they really journalists? Really are they? Or
(11:55):
are they maybe hamas terrorists? I guarantee if Russia had
killed over two hundred gens less, that questioning would be different.
I mean, ultimately, if Western journalists had been allowed into
Gaza since October seven, I suspect the coverage would be
quite different. And yet we have Palestinian journalists doing the
unbelievably hard work of reporting, showing, filming what is going on.
(12:19):
But sometime there's this belief and this is not unique
to Australia. It's the same in the US, in the
UK and Europe have not kind of quite believing them.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
Well, Anthony, thank you so much for speaking with me today.
Speaker 3 (12:32):
Thanks so much for having me Ruby.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
Also in the news today, the loan survivor of Aaron
Patterson's deadly beef, Wellington Lunch, has said he forgives the
triple murderer. In an emotional victim impact statement at the
Supreme Court yesterday in Wilkinson said he bears Patterson no
ill will and encouraged her to spend her time in
jail becoming a better person. Mister Wilkinson paid tribute to
his late wife, Heather, who was killed by Patterson, and
(13:07):
said while he could forgive her for what she did
to him, he is compelled to seek justice for what
Aaron Patterson did to Heather, as well as Don and
Gayale Patterson. A date for Aaron Patterson's sentencing hearing has
not yet been set, and universities are set to be
bound by a legislated code of conduct to better respond
to and prevent gender based violence. The legislation, to be
(13:30):
introduced by Education Minister Jason Clare, follows multiple reports over
many years showing alarming numbers of sexual assault on campus.
The latest figures gathered in twenty twenty one by Universities
Australia showed one in six students experienced sexual harassment, while
one in twenty had been sexually assaulted. New figures are
expected to be released next year. I'm Ruby Jones this
(13:53):
seven am. Thanks for listening.
Speaker 4 (14:01):
Alow on one
Sunrise over Gaza City and the sound of Israeli surveillance
drones is constant.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
As Israel's assault on Gaza City continues. Israeli aircraft and
tanks have pounded the eastern and northern outskirts of the city,
destroying buildings and.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
Homes, searching out what the Israelis claim other final strongholds
of Hamas.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
It comes as a record number of Australians turned out
this weekend in protest against the war, and as the
relationship between the Australian and Israeli government worsens. But while
Australia moves to recognize a Palestinian state, it continues its
military and trade relations with Israel, supplying parts that allow
planes to drop bombs on Gaza. I'm Ruby Jones and
(00:49):
you're listening to seven AM today. Co founder of Declassified
Australia and author of The Palestine Laboratory, Anthony Lowenstein on Australia,
Israel and the difference between what we say and what
we do. It's Tuesday, August twenty six. Anthony, You've spent
(01:13):
a lot of time investigating Israel's weapons and surveillance capability.
I wanted to begin this conversation talking about one weapon
in particular, that is the F thirty five fighter jets.
So tell me a bit about it.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
So this is a jet that's been developed over decades,
principally by Lockheed Martin, which is an American defense company,
one of the biggest in the world, and a number
of countries have this plane. Israel's not the only one
that does, but Israel was the first country in twenty
eighteen that actually used it in war.
Speaker 4 (01:43):
At Lockheed Martin, our mission is to keep you mission.
Speaker 3 (01:47):
Ready, and the F thirty five Lightning II delivers.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
When advanced engineering matters most when air superiority requires superior technology,
when precision means you're for our possibilities. The F thirty
five is a step ahead.
Speaker 3 (02:04):
And there's something called a global supply chain, which essentially
means that a number of countries provide weapons parts that
are usually sent via the US to Israel. Sometimes they
go directly to Israel. So we're talking about countries like Australia,
the UK, Holland and others provide parts. For example, Australia
provides the Bombay doors. Australia provides parts of the visor
(02:30):
that the pilot would use so Australia's role in this
is quite central to the ability for that plane to fly.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
Okay, so tell me more about that part, the Bombay
doors and Australia's role in the supply chain.
Speaker 3 (02:48):
Essentially, when the plane monts to drop a bomb over
Gaza or anywhere, the mechanism that allows that door to
open and then the bomb to drop is made in Australia.
No one else in the world makes this part. There
are companies, for example, in Melbourne and in Brisbane and elsewhere.
They send these parts, mostly to the US who then
(03:10):
construct it in the US and then mostly it's sent
to Israel. Now the companies themselves when they get asked,
and we as they classified, have sometimes written to these
companies to ask what they're doing and how it works,
and what they're contributing to and are they aware that
they are potentially in violation of international law by contributing
(03:30):
to a plane that is being used over Gaza When
gross human rights abuses are occurring. The response is either
no response or saying that we do everything legally. That's
the short version.
Speaker 5 (03:42):
If there is a concern on Australia's part about international
law being violated here, I'm just wondering what further steps
might be taken here. Germany is going to block or
suspend arm sales to Israel that could be used in Gaza.
What about the armored steel and the F thirty five
components that are stray contributes? Would they be blocked?
Speaker 3 (04:02):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (04:02):
Well, let's be clear, we don't supply weapons to Israel.
Speaker 5 (04:06):
The armed steel and the thirty five components is what
I'm asking about.
Speaker 3 (04:11):
Well, well, we're inn F thirty five country and we
have been that for one of the ways that Australia,
Australian government officials, Defense Department officials and again it's not
unique to Australia, but have been doing since October seven,
have been saying that this part is dual use. This
is not a weapon. That's simply a piece of metal
(04:32):
that is attached to a plane, but the fact is
that the plane needs that to be able to open
a space that allows a bomb to fall.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
We are not supplying weapons to Israel.
Speaker 3 (04:44):
And when Richard Miles was on Insiders on ABC a
few weeks ago, he said his words, we're an F
thirty five nation, and he said that proudly for decades.
Now that's true, but the F thirty five is not
some benign plane that simply flies around at air shows.
It's a deadly weapon that is used in war and
(05:06):
is currently being used over Gaza since October seven. So
what legal experts have said to us are declassified, but
also have said in the public, is that not just
austrating government ministers, but the weapons manufacturer but also the
producers of these parts could be legally vulnerable to court
(05:31):
cases in years to come for contributing to a system
that is used by a nation credibly accused of genocide.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
So tell me about that. Have we seen court cases
against any other countries that are exporting parts to Israel?
Speaker 3 (05:47):
So in the UK, legal experts and others took the
British government to court on this very issue, essentially saying
that Britain is contributing to the F thirty five supply chain,
contributing and supporting what Israel is doing in Gaza. The
British government should stop. Now. The British government's response, and
again i'm paraphrasing, people can find the exact words online,
is this would deeply negatively impact our relationship with America
(06:12):
and the US Alliance, and therefore we can't stop it.
Speaker 4 (06:15):
Indeed, the effects of suspending all licenses for the F
thirty five program would undermine the global F thirty flight
supply chain that is vital for the security of the UK.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
Are allies in this.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
And if we were to stop that, they couldn't be
used by other countries in the other conflicts, including those
in which we are involved.
Speaker 3 (06:37):
And the High Court found in the government's favor, there's
going to be an appeal in Holland. The Dutch government
was taken to court. There's been various decisions and appeals.
The current situation is as far as I understand, at
least officially, that the Dutch government does no longer send
weapons parts to Israel, and I have no doubt that
(06:58):
if this went to court in Australia, you would find
the Australian government saying, and again are my words not theirs,
we cannot stop sending these parts to America to Israel
because that would negatively impact our relationship with Washington. I
think people have to understand that there is a profound
(07:19):
disconnect between the increasing angry rehtoric we hear from Penny Wog,
Anthony Albernezi, Tony Burke about what Israel is doing and
the reality of what our policy is that we continue
to be a close alive of Israel, supporting them economically,
financially and militarily, despite the growing anger that we hear
(07:42):
in the voice of Australian government ministers.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
Coming up what sanctions could look like.
Speaker 4 (08:02):
Now you've written a withering letter to Australian Prime Minister
Anthony ALBANIZI, why do you believe history will remember him
as a weak politician?
Speaker 6 (08:14):
Well, look, I'm sure he has a reputable record as
a public servant, but I think his record is forever
tarnished by the weakness that he showed in the face
of these commace terrorist monsters Anthony.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
Last week, tensions between Australia and Israel intensified, with Benjamin
Netnya who repeatedly calling Anthony Albanesi week. This of course
follows Albanesi saying that he'll recognize the Palestinian state. So
how do you see the frame of diplomacy impacting the
deals that you've laid out.
Speaker 3 (08:47):
Look, a diplomatic relationship, obviously between Australia and Israel is
not in good shape. But I think it's worth saying
that I think a lot of this is kabuki theater.
For example, days after the Russian invasion of Ukrainian twenty
twenty two, Australia was putting on sanctions on the Russian government,
Russian businesses, Russian oligarchs. None of that similar behavior has
(09:08):
been done against Israel, Israeli companies, Australian companies involved with Israel.
None of that has happened.
Speaker 2 (09:15):
And tell me a bit about which countries have actually
stopped exporting. Germany, for instance, is saying that there is
a partial arms export band now.
Speaker 3 (09:24):
Right, That's what Germany is saying. That's what the British
have said as well. It is it's nonsense. Certain things
are not maybe being exported anymore. But Germany is the
second biggest provider of weapons to Israel after the US,
has been for years. It massively expanded after October seven.
(09:44):
And that's a lot to do with what German officials
see as their historical responsibility because of their complicity in
the Holocaust in World War two, and therefore they see
it as their moral duty to support Israel regardless of
its actions. It's worth saying, though, that public opinion polls
(10:04):
in Germany have found for months that the majority of
Germans want Germany to stop selling weapons or weapons parts.
But thus far, despite what the Germans are saying, there
is still a weapons flow. For example, after that announcement,
the Germans still signed a submarine deal with Israel. In
other words, the flow of armaments has not stopped. Australia, Britain, France,
(10:29):
all these countries in the last months that have come
out clearly and said we're going to recognize a Palestinian
state in September, they're still trading. They're still sending weapons parts.
Some of them are sending actual weapons. The British government,
for example, is training some Israeli soldiers on British soil.
So none of these relationships have stopped or slowed down.
(10:53):
What has been so frustrating is that the vast, vast
bulk of the Australian mainstream media have not challenge the
Australian government enough on these questions and simply have accepted
when a government minister says, well, we don't sell weapons.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
To Israel the end, why do you think that is?
Speaker 3 (11:11):
I think there is still a fear in many parts
of the mainstream press of being seen to be too
critical of Israel because you are you fear being accused
of anti Semitism by the Israel lobby or others. I
think there's also, frankly, a deep strain of profound racism
(11:32):
that exists in much of the Australian press. I'm not
saying every journalist is racist, That's not what I mean.
What I mean is that there is an unwillingness to
somehow accept or believe, and this is I'm talking about
management level here to accept or believe, for example, that
the over two hundred Palestinian journalists who have been murdered
by Israel are they really journalists? Really are they? Or
(11:55):
are they maybe hamas terrorists? I guarantee if Russia had
killed over two hundred gens less, that questioning would be different.
I mean, ultimately, if Western journalists had been allowed into
Gaza since October seven, I suspect the coverage would be
quite different. And yet we have Palestinian journalists doing the
unbelievably hard work of reporting, showing, filming what is going on.
(12:19):
But sometime there's this belief and this is not unique
to Australia. It's the same in the US, in the
UK and Europe have not kind of quite believing them.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
Well, Anthony, thank you so much for speaking with me today.
Speaker 3 (12:32):
Thanks so much for having me Ruby.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
Also in the news today, the loan survivor of Aaron
Patterson's deadly beef, Wellington Lunch, has said he forgives the
triple murderer. In an emotional victim impact statement at the
Supreme Court yesterday in Wilkinson said he bears Patterson no
ill will and encouraged her to spend her time in
jail becoming a better person. Mister Wilkinson paid tribute to
his late wife, Heather, who was killed by Patterson, and
(13:07):
said while he could forgive her for what she did
to him, he is compelled to seek justice for what
Aaron Patterson did to Heather, as well as Don and
Gayale Patterson. A date for Aaron Patterson's sentencing hearing has
not yet been set, and universities are set to be
bound by a legislated code of conduct to better respond
to and prevent gender based violence. The legislation, to be
(13:30):
introduced by Education Minister Jason Clare, follows multiple reports over
many years showing alarming numbers of sexual assault on campus.
The latest figures gathered in twenty twenty one by Universities
Australia showed one in six students experienced sexual harassment, while
one in twenty had been sexually assaulted. New figures are
expected to be released next year. I'm Ruby Jones this
(13:53):
seven am. Thanks for listening.
Speaker 4 (14:01):
Alow on one
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