July 20, 2025 • 14 mins
As Donald Trump tries to hose down criticisms over his mishandling of the Epstein files, some of his most ardent supporters are now turning against him.
For years Donald Trump fueled conspiracy theories related to the notorious sex offender Jeffrey Epstein. For Trump’s MAGA base, his re-election meant finally uncovering the truth about the powerful associates on “Epstein’s list” .
Now, Trump says the investigation is over, the Epstein list is a “hoax” cooked up by the Democrats, and any supporters who believe there’s more to see are “weaklings”.
Today, tech and power reporter for The Guardian, Nick Robins-Early, on how the Epstein backlash is upending MAGA — and what it means for Trump’s grip on power.
This is part one of a two part interview.
If you enjoy 7am, the best way you can support us is by making a contribution at 7ampodcast.com.au/support.
Socials: Stay in touch with us on Instagram
Guest: Tech and power reporter for The Guardian, Nick Robins-Early
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
This is the sound of a red Maga hat going
up in flames. As Donald Trump tries to hose down
criticisms of his mishandling of the Epstein files, some of
his most ardent supporters are now turning against him. Naga
hats are off America. First hats are on Burn B B.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Burn.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
Hi. I'm Daniel James and you're listening to seven AM.
For years, Donald Trump fueled the conspiracy theories related to
the notorious sex offender Jeffrey Epstein, promising that if he
was re elected, he would uncover the truth about the
powerful people connected with him. Now he's saying there is
(00:47):
no list, It's a hoax cooked up by the Democrats,
and any supporters who believe there's more to see are
weak linked Today Tech Empower reporter for The Guardian, Nick
Robins early on how the Epstein backlashes opated mega what
it means for Trump's group on power. This is part
one of a two party interview. It's Monday, July twenty one, Nick,
(01:18):
Thanks for joining us. Donald Trump cultivated the Epstein conspiracy
throughout his campaign to decount president. Can you lay out
how he talked about it and what it meant to
his supporters. Definitely.
Speaker 3 (01:29):
It meant a lot to his supporters, and he talked
about it quite a bit. It was something that during
the campaign he brought up as one of his many
campaign promises, that he could bring to light things that
the Democrats had suppressed, or that he could expose things
that his supporters cared about. When he was asked by
(01:49):
Fox News last year, he made references to being able
to release the files if he was elected.
Speaker 4 (01:56):
Would you do classify the nine to eleven files?
Speaker 1 (01:58):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (01:59):
Would you class fight JFK files.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
Yeah, which I did.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
I did a lot of it. Would you declassify the
Epstein files.
Speaker 3 (02:06):
Yeah, yeah, I would, Yes, I would. And while he
was sort of stoking his own ability to unleash this information,
he was playing into this QAnon broader conspiracy movement that
Trump was the savior of this and that he could
expose all of the wrongdoing that they felt had been perpetrated.
Speaker 4 (02:30):
That's the cross of the theory.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
Is this belief that you are secretly saving the world
from this sitanic cult of pedophiles and cannibals. Does that
sound like something you are behind.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Oh I haven't, I haven't heard that. But Uh, is
that supposed to be a bad thing or a good thing?
I mean, if if I can help save the world
from problems, I'm willing to do it. I'm willing to
put myself out there.
Speaker 3 (02:58):
And it became really central to a lot of Maga
Trump World followers to really care about this conspiracy and
really care about the release of the Epstein files.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
Can you just lie at what diaphors?
Speaker 3 (03:14):
Yeah, the Epstein files sort of mean a lot of
different things to different people. At the base, the Epstein
files are the federal government's investigative files that pertain to
the Epstein prosecution. Epstein was charged and convicted with sex
offender crimes, and the federal investigation into how he committed
(03:39):
those crimes is a tangible set of files. They exist,
they are out there. A lot of them have actually
been already released over the years, stuff like his address
book has been made public. However, colloquially, the Epstein files
have taken on a bunch of different meanings, and a
lot of the things that people talk about when they're
(04:01):
talking about the Epstein files, especially among the people who
are really hardcore into Epstein conspiracies, is that the Epstein
files really mean that there is this client list that exists,
this specific list of all of the people who Jeffrey
Epstein did business with or was wrapped up in his
(04:21):
world of sex offenses. And so that's for a certain
section of people, really what they care about this client list.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
Right, So this list is clearly very important to his base.
Once Trump gets back into the White House, what does
he do.
Speaker 3 (04:37):
So very quickly after the inauguration, the Justice Department is
commissioned to launch an investigation into the Epstein prosecution, into
this idea of the files, with the sort of implicit
promise that it's all going to come out. The Epstein
files are going to be released. And General Pam Bondi,
(05:01):
who becomes a sort of central character in this saga
in February, says that it's a client list sitting on
her desk right now, ready for her to review.
Speaker 4 (05:12):
The DOJ may be releasing the list of Jeffrey Epstein's clients.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
Well, that really happen. It's sitting on my desk right
now to review. That's been a directive by President Trunk.
Speaker 3 (05:23):
And the people get very excited about this, and at
some point she even follows it up by releasing what
is called Phase one of the Epstein files. A bunch
of handpicked conservative influencers are brought to the White House
and they walk out of there with these binders full
(05:43):
of what is the supposed new release of Epstein files.
Speaker 4 (05:47):
In this case, in Epstein's case, it is incredibly disturbing.
We have flight logs, we have information names that will
come out.
Speaker 3 (05:56):
But in a first sign that this is about to
go wrong, it's very soon determined that what was released
to these influencers is basically already public. It's all this
stuff that's already known. There isn't really anything in there
that people care about. There's certainly no list, and people
begin to wonder what's going on with this investigation, what's happening.
(06:19):
People lose faith in Pambondi a little bit. A bunch
of the magabase gets very mad at this, and then
in early July, the Justice Department releases an unsigned memo
saying that actually the investigation is concluded. There is no
client list, and there's no conspiracy, and there's no one
(06:40):
else to prosecute. And this is really what kicks off
this current round of outrage, this idea that not only
is there nothing more forthcoming, that the Attorney general who
just said that there was a list on her desk
now says there's nothing to be seen here.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
Right, So hew did MAGA respond?
Speaker 3 (07:02):
I mean, they did not take it well. Maga world
really has this backlash.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
I just got the office. I'm gonna go throw up.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
Actually, and as only happens every few years when something
really really bad happens or something, I mean, I'm physically
that's gonna put probably right now.
Speaker 3 (07:18):
You have a lot of people who have been making
this their bread and butter of content, creation of the
narrative that they're promoting about the government and about Trump
and about the way that Democrats have covered this up.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
But Trump will come in and he'll make it all right.
Speaker 3 (07:38):
And these are really prominent voices, These sort of mega
influencers who have tremendous reach and tremendous clout, make.
Speaker 4 (07:45):
Some noise if you care about the Jeffrey Epstein scandal.
Speaker 3 (07:51):
You have people like Candice Owns telling her audience that
Trump thinks that his followers are stupid.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
It seems like you think your base is stupid. That's
how I feel. I feel like Trump thinks his base
is stupid.
Speaker 3 (08:04):
You have Theovon Joe Rogan start to ask questions and
make fun of the way that there's been this complete
flip flop.
Speaker 4 (08:10):
They've got videotape, and then all of a sudden, they
don't you know, you have the director of the FBI
on the show saying, there's no ta if there was
nothing you're looking for is on those tapes.
Speaker 3 (08:19):
Like what Tucker Carlson goes off on it and begins
espousing other conspiracy theories about you know, Epstein's alleged international connections,
and it just begins to be even more opportunities for
the average maga bass and Trump supporter to get upset
about this, and they're met. They're genuinely upset because this
(08:42):
is something that they genuinely care about. And whether Trump
is in a bind because he has touted the existence
of something that he can't present now, or whether it's
because he has lost an exact bead on this aspect
his followers, it does seem like for the time being,
(09:04):
this is not something that is going away in the
way that he hopes, and it's turning into this situation
where he's losing a grip that he's held very closely
and very tightly for a long time.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
After the break al Mosquet is the fray and capitalizes Nick.
When the Trump administration announced I had finished their investigation
into the Epstein files, I released a video of Jeffrey
Epstein's prison cell on the Nautius Fan Dead. Can you
just explain why they did that? And Howard Backfawd.
Speaker 3 (09:39):
Yeah, So there's a significance because Jeffrey Epstein is said
to have killed himself in his cell, and they wanted
to release proof that there was not any sort of
outside interference into his incarceration that would have suggested that
he was killed or that there was some sort of
(10:01):
nefarious organization. They claimed to release the raw file of
his cell. Then very quickly it's revealed by Wired that
there has been some doctoring of the video that they released, and.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
That footage, as people noted, appeared to be missing an
entire minute. Well guess it. Get this. According to a
new Wired investigation public yesterday published yesterday, that video is
actually missing approximately two minutes and fifty three seconds, So
the whole thing's not going away.
Speaker 3 (10:33):
So that just adds a whole other big implosion to
the way that MAGA is reacting, to the way that
the administration is talking about and releasing information about the
Epstein files.
Speaker 1 (10:45):
So that doesn't look good for Trump. Is he handled it?
Speaker 3 (10:49):
Not only did Trump begin to say that there was
nothing to see here, he actually began to lash out
and get angry at supporters who kept bringing it up.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
No, I know, it's a hopx. It's started by Democrats.
It's all been a big hoax. It's perpetrated by the Democrats,
and some stupid Republicans and foolish Republicans fall into the net,
and so they try and do the Democrats work, and
they're wasting that time.
Speaker 3 (11:12):
With He issued this very long post on his social
media website Truth Social, where he said that Epstein was
a hoax perpetrated by the radical left.
Speaker 4 (11:23):
Their new scam is what well forever call the Jeffrey
Epstein hoax, and my past supporters have bought into the
BS hook line and sinker. Trump adding, let these weaklings
continue forward and do the Democrats work. Don't even think
about talking of our incredible and unprecedented success, because I
don't want their support anymore.
Speaker 3 (11:42):
He essentially was hoping that people would just forget about this.
At some point, he called it boring in interviews he
said that he couldn't believe people were still talking about it,
really bashed the very people who had brought him into
the White House and who were some of his most
supervent support. And that has continued and he has really
(12:06):
vilified the people who keep caring about this.
Speaker 1 (12:12):
And Nikki cover elon Musk. Last time we spike, he
told us about the friendship breakap between Musk and Trump.
So how is Musk capitalizing on this? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (12:21):
So this has actually been something that between Musk and
Trump started off as what felt like a red line
in their breakup. As soon as Musk began to bring
up the Epstein files and say that Trump might be involved,
it took on this character of, oh, this might not
be a little spat that they fix. This might be
a more permanent breakup. And since we talked last, Musk
(12:45):
has really doubled down on this and he's been tweeting
about this fairly consistently. He's been making fun of why
the administration is not releasing these He's been further suggesting
that it's because Trump is involved. Their relationship has continued
to deteriorate, and this has given Musk a lot of
ammunition as he seeks to get back at Trump and
(13:06):
as he seeks to promote his own potential third party
that he's announced. So in doing this, Trump has left
himself open to these kinds of attacks, while Musk has
been able to look at what's going on on x
formerly Twitter and say, oh, people are talking about this,
people are upset. Every time I tweet about this, it
(13:29):
stokes the fire even more, it gets more media coverage,
and so this has become a real asset for him
in their current feud.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
This is part one of a two party interview. In
the next installment, we hear how far back Donald Trump's
friendship with Jeffrey Epstein goes and find out why despot
all the controversies that have played Trump, this could be
the one that undoes him. It's called Another Wonderful Secret,
the letter Trump denies sending Epstein, and it's in your
feed down.
Speaker 4 (14:00):
M
This is the sound of a red Maga hat going
up in flames. As Donald Trump tries to hose down
criticisms of his mishandling of the Epstein files, some of
his most ardent supporters are now turning against him. Naga
hats are off America. First hats are on Burn B B.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Burn.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
Hi. I'm Daniel James and you're listening to seven AM.
For years, Donald Trump fueled the conspiracy theories related to
the notorious sex offender Jeffrey Epstein, promising that if he
was re elected, he would uncover the truth about the
powerful people connected with him. Now he's saying there is
(00:47):
no list, It's a hoax cooked up by the Democrats,
and any supporters who believe there's more to see are
weak linked Today Tech Empower reporter for The Guardian, Nick
Robins early on how the Epstein backlashes opated mega what
it means for Trump's group on power. This is part
one of a two party interview. It's Monday, July twenty one, Nick,
(01:18):
Thanks for joining us. Donald Trump cultivated the Epstein conspiracy
throughout his campaign to decount president. Can you lay out
how he talked about it and what it meant to
his supporters. Definitely.
Speaker 3 (01:29):
It meant a lot to his supporters, and he talked
about it quite a bit. It was something that during
the campaign he brought up as one of his many
campaign promises, that he could bring to light things that
the Democrats had suppressed, or that he could expose things
that his supporters cared about. When he was asked by
(01:49):
Fox News last year, he made references to being able
to release the files if he was elected.
Speaker 4 (01:56):
Would you do classify the nine to eleven files?
Speaker 1 (01:58):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (01:59):
Would you class fight JFK files.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
Yeah, which I did.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
I did a lot of it. Would you declassify the
Epstein files.
Speaker 3 (02:06):
Yeah, yeah, I would, Yes, I would. And while he
was sort of stoking his own ability to unleash this information,
he was playing into this QAnon broader conspiracy movement that
Trump was the savior of this and that he could
expose all of the wrongdoing that they felt had been perpetrated.
Speaker 4 (02:30):
That's the cross of the theory.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
Is this belief that you are secretly saving the world
from this sitanic cult of pedophiles and cannibals. Does that
sound like something you are behind.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Oh I haven't, I haven't heard that. But Uh, is
that supposed to be a bad thing or a good thing?
I mean, if if I can help save the world
from problems, I'm willing to do it. I'm willing to
put myself out there.
Speaker 3 (02:58):
And it became really central to a lot of Maga
Trump World followers to really care about this conspiracy and
really care about the release of the Epstein files.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
Can you just lie at what diaphors?
Speaker 3 (03:14):
Yeah, the Epstein files sort of mean a lot of
different things to different people. At the base, the Epstein
files are the federal government's investigative files that pertain to
the Epstein prosecution. Epstein was charged and convicted with sex
offender crimes, and the federal investigation into how he committed
(03:39):
those crimes is a tangible set of files. They exist,
they are out there. A lot of them have actually
been already released over the years, stuff like his address
book has been made public. However, colloquially, the Epstein files
have taken on a bunch of different meanings, and a
lot of the things that people talk about when they're
(04:01):
talking about the Epstein files, especially among the people who
are really hardcore into Epstein conspiracies, is that the Epstein
files really mean that there is this client list that exists,
this specific list of all of the people who Jeffrey
Epstein did business with or was wrapped up in his
(04:21):
world of sex offenses. And so that's for a certain
section of people, really what they care about this client list.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
Right, So this list is clearly very important to his base.
Once Trump gets back into the White House, what does
he do.
Speaker 3 (04:37):
So very quickly after the inauguration, the Justice Department is
commissioned to launch an investigation into the Epstein prosecution, into
this idea of the files, with the sort of implicit
promise that it's all going to come out. The Epstein
files are going to be released. And General Pam Bondi,
(05:01):
who becomes a sort of central character in this saga
in February, says that it's a client list sitting on
her desk right now, ready for her to review.
Speaker 4 (05:12):
The DOJ may be releasing the list of Jeffrey Epstein's clients.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
Well, that really happen. It's sitting on my desk right
now to review. That's been a directive by President Trunk.
Speaker 3 (05:23):
And the people get very excited about this, and at
some point she even follows it up by releasing what
is called Phase one of the Epstein files. A bunch
of handpicked conservative influencers are brought to the White House
and they walk out of there with these binders full
(05:43):
of what is the supposed new release of Epstein files.
Speaker 4 (05:47):
In this case, in Epstein's case, it is incredibly disturbing.
We have flight logs, we have information names that will
come out.
Speaker 3 (05:56):
But in a first sign that this is about to
go wrong, it's very soon determined that what was released
to these influencers is basically already public. It's all this
stuff that's already known. There isn't really anything in there
that people care about. There's certainly no list, and people
begin to wonder what's going on with this investigation, what's happening.
(06:19):
People lose faith in Pambondi a little bit. A bunch
of the magabase gets very mad at this, and then
in early July, the Justice Department releases an unsigned memo
saying that actually the investigation is concluded. There is no
client list, and there's no conspiracy, and there's no one
(06:40):
else to prosecute. And this is really what kicks off
this current round of outrage, this idea that not only
is there nothing more forthcoming, that the Attorney general who
just said that there was a list on her desk
now says there's nothing to be seen here.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
Right, So hew did MAGA respond?
Speaker 3 (07:02):
I mean, they did not take it well. Maga world
really has this backlash.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
I just got the office. I'm gonna go throw up.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
Actually, and as only happens every few years when something
really really bad happens or something, I mean, I'm physically
that's gonna put probably right now.
Speaker 3 (07:18):
You have a lot of people who have been making
this their bread and butter of content, creation of the
narrative that they're promoting about the government and about Trump
and about the way that Democrats have covered this up.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
But Trump will come in and he'll make it all right.
Speaker 3 (07:38):
And these are really prominent voices, These sort of mega
influencers who have tremendous reach and tremendous clout, make.
Speaker 4 (07:45):
Some noise if you care about the Jeffrey Epstein scandal.
Speaker 3 (07:51):
You have people like Candice Owns telling her audience that
Trump thinks that his followers are stupid.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
It seems like you think your base is stupid. That's
how I feel. I feel like Trump thinks his base
is stupid.
Speaker 3 (08:04):
You have Theovon Joe Rogan start to ask questions and
make fun of the way that there's been this complete
flip flop.
Speaker 4 (08:10):
They've got videotape, and then all of a sudden, they
don't you know, you have the director of the FBI
on the show saying, there's no ta if there was
nothing you're looking for is on those tapes.
Speaker 3 (08:19):
Like what Tucker Carlson goes off on it and begins
espousing other conspiracy theories about you know, Epstein's alleged international connections,
and it just begins to be even more opportunities for
the average maga bass and Trump supporter to get upset
about this, and they're met. They're genuinely upset because this
(08:42):
is something that they genuinely care about. And whether Trump
is in a bind because he has touted the existence
of something that he can't present now, or whether it's
because he has lost an exact bead on this aspect
his followers, it does seem like for the time being,
(09:04):
this is not something that is going away in the
way that he hopes, and it's turning into this situation
where he's losing a grip that he's held very closely
and very tightly for a long time.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
After the break al Mosquet is the fray and capitalizes Nick.
When the Trump administration announced I had finished their investigation
into the Epstein files, I released a video of Jeffrey
Epstein's prison cell on the Nautius Fan Dead. Can you
just explain why they did that? And Howard Backfawd.
Speaker 3 (09:39):
Yeah, So there's a significance because Jeffrey Epstein is said
to have killed himself in his cell, and they wanted
to release proof that there was not any sort of
outside interference into his incarceration that would have suggested that
he was killed or that there was some sort of
(10:01):
nefarious organization. They claimed to release the raw file of
his cell. Then very quickly it's revealed by Wired that
there has been some doctoring of the video that they released, and.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
That footage, as people noted, appeared to be missing an
entire minute. Well guess it. Get this. According to a
new Wired investigation public yesterday published yesterday, that video is
actually missing approximately two minutes and fifty three seconds, So
the whole thing's not going away.
Speaker 3 (10:33):
So that just adds a whole other big implosion to
the way that MAGA is reacting, to the way that
the administration is talking about and releasing information about the
Epstein files.
Speaker 1 (10:45):
So that doesn't look good for Trump. Is he handled it?
Speaker 3 (10:49):
Not only did Trump begin to say that there was
nothing to see here, he actually began to lash out
and get angry at supporters who kept bringing it up.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
No, I know, it's a hopx. It's started by Democrats.
It's all been a big hoax. It's perpetrated by the Democrats,
and some stupid Republicans and foolish Republicans fall into the net,
and so they try and do the Democrats work, and
they're wasting that time.
Speaker 3 (11:12):
With He issued this very long post on his social
media website Truth Social, where he said that Epstein was
a hoax perpetrated by the radical left.
Speaker 4 (11:23):
Their new scam is what well forever call the Jeffrey
Epstein hoax, and my past supporters have bought into the
BS hook line and sinker. Trump adding, let these weaklings
continue forward and do the Democrats work. Don't even think
about talking of our incredible and unprecedented success, because I
don't want their support anymore.
Speaker 3 (11:42):
He essentially was hoping that people would just forget about this.
At some point, he called it boring in interviews he
said that he couldn't believe people were still talking about it,
really bashed the very people who had brought him into
the White House and who were some of his most
supervent support. And that has continued and he has really
(12:06):
vilified the people who keep caring about this.
Speaker 1 (12:12):
And Nikki cover elon Musk. Last time we spike, he
told us about the friendship breakap between Musk and Trump.
So how is Musk capitalizing on this? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (12:21):
So this has actually been something that between Musk and
Trump started off as what felt like a red line
in their breakup. As soon as Musk began to bring
up the Epstein files and say that Trump might be involved,
it took on this character of, oh, this might not
be a little spat that they fix. This might be
a more permanent breakup. And since we talked last, Musk
(12:45):
has really doubled down on this and he's been tweeting
about this fairly consistently. He's been making fun of why
the administration is not releasing these He's been further suggesting
that it's because Trump is involved. Their relationship has continued
to deteriorate, and this has given Musk a lot of
ammunition as he seeks to get back at Trump and
(13:06):
as he seeks to promote his own potential third party
that he's announced. So in doing this, Trump has left
himself open to these kinds of attacks, while Musk has
been able to look at what's going on on x
formerly Twitter and say, oh, people are talking about this,
people are upset. Every time I tweet about this, it
(13:29):
stokes the fire even more, it gets more media coverage,
and so this has become a real asset for him
in their current feud.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
This is part one of a two party interview. In
the next installment, we hear how far back Donald Trump's
friendship with Jeffrey Epstein goes and find out why despot
all the controversies that have played Trump, this could be
the one that undoes him. It's called Another Wonderful Secret,
the letter Trump denies sending Epstein, and it's in your
feed down.
Speaker 4 (14:00):
M
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy, Jess Hilarious, And Charlamagne Tha God!