August 5, 2025 • 14 mins
When ASIO’s spy chief Mike Burgess delivered his annual threat assessment earlier this year, it was widely seen as a recruitment drive.
He talked about the crucial role of human intelligence in ASIO's work – and sang the praises of the people who make huge sacrifices, in secret, to keep Australians safe.
But while Burgess insisted informants collecting intelligence for ASIO are valued, ABC investigative reporter Sean Rubinsztein-Dunlop has revealed a different side to this dangerous work.
Today, the reality of working with ASIO – and what can happen when you leave.
This is part two of a two-part episode.
If you haven’t yet, go back and listen to Part 1: The spiritual leader of Sydney’s pro-ISIS network.
If you enjoy 7am, the best way you can support us is by making a contribution at 7ampodcast.com.au/support.
Socials: Stay in touch with us on Instagram
Guest: Investigative reporter for the ABC Sean Rubinsztein-Dunlop
Photo: Sissy Reyes, Four Corners
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
This is part two of a two part series. If
you haven't yet, go and listen to the spiritual leader
of Sydney's PROASIS network. When Asier Spy Chief Mike Burgess
delivered his annual Threat Assessment earlier this year, it was
widely seen as a recruitment drive.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
A well placed, well motivated, and well supported human source
can collect information broadly or very precisely. They can ask questions,
draw inferences, and prioritize.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
He talked about the crucial role of human intelligence in
asio's work and seeing the praises of the people who
make huge sacrifices in secret to keep Australians safe.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
How human sources make significant personal sacrifice to work with ASIO,
diverting time and effort they might otherwise spend on families,
livelihoods and recreation. Fundamentally, they do this for Australia and
their fellow Australians. Their secret work protects Australians safety, security
and prosperity, and is done without public fanfare or recognition,
(00:57):
even by their closest family and friends.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
But while Burgess insistent in informants collecting intelligence for ASIO
are valued, ABC investigative reporter Sean Rubinstein Dunlop has revealed
a different side to this dangerous work today, the reality
of working with ASIO and what can happen when you leave.
Speaker 3 (01:30):
Sean.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
What have we heard from ASIO spy chief Mike Burgess
about the threat of a religiously motivated terror attack in Australia.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
Well, last year ASIO increased the terrorism threat level. They
brought it up from possible to probable.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
We raised the national terrorism threat level in twenty twenty
four and I do not anticipate being able to lower
it for the foreseeable future.
Speaker 3 (01:54):
And that was after a series of attacks and thwarted
terrorst plots in Australia. Across the world, intelligence agencies in
the West, in the UK and Europe, for example, a
warning of the same thing. They're saying that there's a
(02:14):
resurgence in the terrorism threat from multiple ideologies, including the
far right, but that the most pressing threat is again
the threat of so called Islamist terrorism. At Mike Burgess's
annual AZIO Threat Assessment in February, he said that the
(02:36):
Islamic State terrorist Group and Al Qaeder were reviving and
renewing their capabilities.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
Traditional transnational terrorist groups such as Islamic State, Al Qaeder
and their affiliates are explorting permissive spaces to revive and
renew their capabilities, particularly in Afghanistan and parts of Africa.
Speaker 3 (02:56):
And he also said the wars in the Middle East,
and of course the war in Gaza is ongoing.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
The war in the Middle East has not yet directly
inspired terrorism in Australia, but it is prompting protest, exacerbating division,
undermining social cohesion and elevating intolerance.
Speaker 3 (03:14):
And that was increasing the threat of terrorism.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
And one of the key tools that ASIO has is
human intelligence. Officers. You've talked about your source who has
done this work, So can you tell me about human
what you learned about how ASIO uses human intelligence.
Speaker 3 (03:31):
Yeah, I mean, it's really an extraordinary story and it's
been a pretty incredible ride for me and for our
team as well. Marcus is a former ASIO undercover agent
who was recruited from the Middle East back in twenty
sixteen twenty seventeen by AZIO to infiltrate the radical Islamist
(03:56):
community in Sydney. Can you tell us your name and
what you did in Australia.
Speaker 4 (04:02):
Mike Elias is Marcus. I worked for as an undercover
agent for about six years, I was pretending I am
an extrememist. I was pretending I was supporter of isl Isis.
Speaker 3 (04:25):
He came over here and he he worked as an
imam and teacher in radical prayer centers and in covert groups.
Marcus contacted me more than a year ago, not long
after the first Jihadis terrorist attack in Australia in several years.
(04:49):
There was a you might remember early last year, a
teenage boy stabbed Bishop mar Mari Emmanuel in Sydney during
a live dreamed church service and was charged with terrorism
over that what people are praying, you're gonna come and
do this. And I got this email out of the
(05:15):
blue from this guy, Marcus, who claimed to be a
former as O undercover agent, and said that that attack
could have been prevented. It's not always you get an
email like that, but speaking with Marcus over several months,
I realized that he had credible information that only someone
(05:38):
on the inside could know. So we went overseas and
interviewed him. Astonishingly, he decided to put his face on camera,
identify himself rather than by his real name, and tell
Australians about what he witnessed.
Speaker 4 (05:59):
There were several comments encouraging doing something like this towards
the bishop. This is how Muja he didn't deal with
those who attacked our profit.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
This will shut.
Speaker 4 (06:17):
Him up, this will cut his tongue off.
Speaker 3 (06:23):
He said that he warned as about threats to the
bishop starting two years before the attack.
Speaker 4 (06:30):
Multiple times. I shot them messages on my phone. I
used to send them secretly in shots as well with
contacts of people who posted those posts.
Speaker 3 (06:43):
And in our investigation we uncovered other apparent intelligence failures
in the lead up to that attack in the Sydney
suburb of Wakeley. I mean, Marcus took huge risks to
do this interview. He was risking jail time, still risk
being charged for speaking about Asio's secret work. So it
(07:06):
was an extraordinary step that he took, and he took
that because he believed the public needed to know and
there was huge public interest in him telling his story.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
After the break, Asio response, Sean, what has happened to
Marcus since he spoke out? Have you kept in touch?
Speaker 3 (07:34):
Yeah, Look, we're in touch regularly. He's in hiding in
an undisclosed location overseas. He's been there since before our
story went to air, and he's basically in limbo trying
to work out what his next step is and how
he can rebuild his life. He left Australia back in
(07:59):
twenty two twenty three after his relationship with Asio deteriorated.
He was charged with some assault offenses, charges that were
ultimately withdrawn, but following that he said that Asio lost
interest in him and he had to leave Australia and
(08:20):
go back home. He since then has said that he
feels betrayed. At the same time, since our story went
to air, he's been receiving threats that have been published
online by extremists. Wissam Hadad has come out and repeatedly
called Marcus an apostate and an enemy of Islam. In
(08:44):
the Jihadi community, there's nothing worse than being called that,
and words like that have been used to justify attacks
on people in the past. Not saying that Dad himself
has called for attacks, but he's using this very troubling
(09:07):
language and that has Marcus very worried indeed.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
So what is ASIO had to say about Marcus's situation?
Speaker 3 (09:15):
Well, look, it's very rare that ASIO gives a statement
on the record when we do stories about them, but
in this case, they took the step of doing that,
and they said that they wanted to put on the
record that human sources are critical to asio's success and
make significant sacrifice to help us protect Australia and Australians,
(09:39):
but they went a lot harder than that too. In
response to Marcus's claims that he warned them about threats
to Bishop mar Maari Emmanuel, they declined to confirm whether
they knew about any threats, but they rejected suggestions that
they ignored intelligence about any attack. They said that the
(10:01):
insinuation AZIO wouldn't act on intelligence about a terrorist attack
is quote as false as it is offensive to officers
who work twenty four to seven to keep Australians safe.
Really strong words there. They said they'd carefully reviewed their
records and they stood by their decisions and conduct in
(10:22):
the matters we were canvassing, including of course, the way
Marcus's time ended with ASIO. And they said that some
of the claims we'd put to them contained errors of fact,
fabrications and misrepresentations, but they wouldn't say what those were,
And I should just say that everything we put to
(10:45):
air was thoroughly fact checked and verified.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
And suan Since the start of the new government in Syria,
we've seen a resurgence in ISIS activity there. How do
you expect that to reshape our security situation here at home.
Speaker 3 (11:00):
I mean, we've seen an increase recently in the number
of Islamic State attacks in Syria. They're obviously opposed to
the new Syrian government. They believe that there should be
one Islamic state ruled by a very regressive interpretation of
(11:20):
Sharia law. It's yet to be seen what will happen
in Australia, but we know that international situations have flow
on effects here. And it's not just in Syria where
we've seen a resurgence in Islamic States activity. For several
years now, they've been rebuilding in what they call their
(11:42):
provinces in Afghanistan and parts of Africa. They've become a
group that's spread across multiple geographic locations, but is still
very centrally organized, and authorities are on alert. Across the West,
we've seen a sharp increase in the number of attacks
(12:06):
and plots, particularly last year in Russia, in Iran, earlier
this year in New Orleans, and we know that Australian
authorities are worried about the same thing. Happening here. I mean,
through our investigation, we've seen the way this network in
Australia has been re energizing itself, the way that Wissum
(12:28):
her Dad has been working with terrorist leaders who have
recently been released from jail, and he's now got a
sister prayer center in Melbourne working hand in hand with him.
So it's certainly increasing the tempo of what authorities need
(12:48):
to look at here. And we know as well that
it's a few years after a war abroad that you
start to see terrorist activity domestic. So we saw that
after the Iraq war, we saw it after the war
in Afghanistan. And the current fear is around what will
(13:10):
people do who are extremely angry about the human rights
situation and many many deaths in Gaza, what might they
do here under the influence of jihadi preachers poisoning their minds.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
Sean, thank you so much for attacking the time to speak.
Speaker 3 (13:31):
With this my pleasure.
Speaker 1 (13:35):
You can watch Sean Rubinstein Dunlop's Four Corners report entitled
The Agent Inside an iView or YouTube and read his
reporting on ABC News Online. Also in the news, the
government has announced a Japanese company will build new warships
(13:58):
for the Royal Australian Navy at a cost of ten
billion dollars. Mitsubishi Heavy Industries will build the new warships
to replace ones that have been in use since the
end of World War II, and Foreign Minister Penny Wong
has worn there's a risk that there will be no
Palestine left to recognize if a path to a two
state solution is not created. The government is under a
(14:20):
new pressure to recognize Palestinian statehood after several of Australia's
allies indicated that we use the September UN meeting in
New York to do so. When asked about Australia's intention
to recognize Palestine, Senator Wong reiterated was a matter of when,
not if. Thanks for listening to seven AM. We'll be
(14:40):
back tomorrow.
This is part two of a two part series. If
you haven't yet, go and listen to the spiritual leader
of Sydney's PROASIS network. When Asier Spy Chief Mike Burgess
delivered his annual Threat Assessment earlier this year, it was
widely seen as a recruitment drive.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
A well placed, well motivated, and well supported human source
can collect information broadly or very precisely. They can ask questions,
draw inferences, and prioritize.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
He talked about the crucial role of human intelligence in
asio's work and seeing the praises of the people who
make huge sacrifices in secret to keep Australians safe.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
How human sources make significant personal sacrifice to work with ASIO,
diverting time and effort they might otherwise spend on families,
livelihoods and recreation. Fundamentally, they do this for Australia and
their fellow Australians. Their secret work protects Australians safety, security
and prosperity, and is done without public fanfare or recognition,
(00:57):
even by their closest family and friends.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
But while Burgess insistent in informants collecting intelligence for ASIO
are valued, ABC investigative reporter Sean Rubinstein Dunlop has revealed
a different side to this dangerous work today, the reality
of working with ASIO and what can happen when you leave.
Speaker 3 (01:30):
Sean.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
What have we heard from ASIO spy chief Mike Burgess
about the threat of a religiously motivated terror attack in Australia.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
Well, last year ASIO increased the terrorism threat level. They
brought it up from possible to probable.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
We raised the national terrorism threat level in twenty twenty
four and I do not anticipate being able to lower
it for the foreseeable future.
Speaker 3 (01:54):
And that was after a series of attacks and thwarted
terrorst plots in Australia. Across the world, intelligence agencies in
the West, in the UK and Europe, for example, a
warning of the same thing. They're saying that there's a
(02:14):
resurgence in the terrorism threat from multiple ideologies, including the
far right, but that the most pressing threat is again
the threat of so called Islamist terrorism. At Mike Burgess's
annual AZIO Threat Assessment in February, he said that the
(02:36):
Islamic State terrorist Group and Al Qaeder were reviving and
renewing their capabilities.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
Traditional transnational terrorist groups such as Islamic State, Al Qaeder
and their affiliates are explorting permissive spaces to revive and
renew their capabilities, particularly in Afghanistan and parts of Africa.
Speaker 3 (02:56):
And he also said the wars in the Middle East,
and of course the war in Gaza is ongoing.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
The war in the Middle East has not yet directly
inspired terrorism in Australia, but it is prompting protest, exacerbating division,
undermining social cohesion and elevating intolerance.
Speaker 3 (03:14):
And that was increasing the threat of terrorism.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
And one of the key tools that ASIO has is
human intelligence. Officers. You've talked about your source who has
done this work, So can you tell me about human
what you learned about how ASIO uses human intelligence.
Speaker 3 (03:31):
Yeah, I mean, it's really an extraordinary story and it's
been a pretty incredible ride for me and for our
team as well. Marcus is a former ASIO undercover agent
who was recruited from the Middle East back in twenty
sixteen twenty seventeen by AZIO to infiltrate the radical Islamist
(03:56):
community in Sydney. Can you tell us your name and
what you did in Australia.
Speaker 4 (04:02):
Mike Elias is Marcus. I worked for as an undercover
agent for about six years, I was pretending I am
an extrememist. I was pretending I was supporter of isl Isis.
Speaker 3 (04:25):
He came over here and he he worked as an
imam and teacher in radical prayer centers and in covert groups.
Marcus contacted me more than a year ago, not long
after the first Jihadis terrorist attack in Australia in several years.
(04:49):
There was a you might remember early last year, a
teenage boy stabbed Bishop mar Mari Emmanuel in Sydney during
a live dreamed church service and was charged with terrorism
over that what people are praying, you're gonna come and
do this. And I got this email out of the
(05:15):
blue from this guy, Marcus, who claimed to be a
former as O undercover agent, and said that that attack
could have been prevented. It's not always you get an
email like that, but speaking with Marcus over several months,
I realized that he had credible information that only someone
(05:38):
on the inside could know. So we went overseas and
interviewed him. Astonishingly, he decided to put his face on camera,
identify himself rather than by his real name, and tell
Australians about what he witnessed.
Speaker 4 (05:59):
There were several comments encouraging doing something like this towards
the bishop. This is how Muja he didn't deal with
those who attacked our profit.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
This will shut.
Speaker 4 (06:17):
Him up, this will cut his tongue off.
Speaker 3 (06:23):
He said that he warned as about threats to the
bishop starting two years before the attack.
Speaker 4 (06:30):
Multiple times. I shot them messages on my phone. I
used to send them secretly in shots as well with
contacts of people who posted those posts.
Speaker 3 (06:43):
And in our investigation we uncovered other apparent intelligence failures
in the lead up to that attack in the Sydney
suburb of Wakeley. I mean, Marcus took huge risks to
do this interview. He was risking jail time, still risk
being charged for speaking about Asio's secret work. So it
(07:06):
was an extraordinary step that he took, and he took
that because he believed the public needed to know and
there was huge public interest in him telling his story.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
After the break, Asio response, Sean, what has happened to
Marcus since he spoke out? Have you kept in touch?
Speaker 3 (07:34):
Yeah, Look, we're in touch regularly. He's in hiding in
an undisclosed location overseas. He's been there since before our
story went to air, and he's basically in limbo trying
to work out what his next step is and how
he can rebuild his life. He left Australia back in
(07:59):
twenty two twenty three after his relationship with Asio deteriorated.
He was charged with some assault offenses, charges that were
ultimately withdrawn, but following that he said that Asio lost
interest in him and he had to leave Australia and
(08:20):
go back home. He since then has said that he
feels betrayed. At the same time, since our story went
to air, he's been receiving threats that have been published
online by extremists. Wissam Hadad has come out and repeatedly
called Marcus an apostate and an enemy of Islam. In
(08:44):
the Jihadi community, there's nothing worse than being called that,
and words like that have been used to justify attacks
on people in the past. Not saying that Dad himself
has called for attacks, but he's using this very troubling
(09:07):
language and that has Marcus very worried indeed.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
So what is ASIO had to say about Marcus's situation?
Speaker 3 (09:15):
Well, look, it's very rare that ASIO gives a statement
on the record when we do stories about them, but
in this case, they took the step of doing that,
and they said that they wanted to put on the
record that human sources are critical to asio's success and
make significant sacrifice to help us protect Australia and Australians,
(09:39):
but they went a lot harder than that too. In
response to Marcus's claims that he warned them about threats
to Bishop mar Maari Emmanuel, they declined to confirm whether
they knew about any threats, but they rejected suggestions that
they ignored intelligence about any attack. They said that the
(10:01):
insinuation AZIO wouldn't act on intelligence about a terrorist attack
is quote as false as it is offensive to officers
who work twenty four to seven to keep Australians safe.
Really strong words there. They said they'd carefully reviewed their
records and they stood by their decisions and conduct in
(10:22):
the matters we were canvassing, including of course, the way
Marcus's time ended with ASIO. And they said that some
of the claims we'd put to them contained errors of fact,
fabrications and misrepresentations, but they wouldn't say what those were,
And I should just say that everything we put to
(10:45):
air was thoroughly fact checked and verified.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
And suan Since the start of the new government in Syria,
we've seen a resurgence in ISIS activity there. How do
you expect that to reshape our security situation here at home.
Speaker 3 (11:00):
I mean, we've seen an increase recently in the number
of Islamic State attacks in Syria. They're obviously opposed to
the new Syrian government. They believe that there should be
one Islamic state ruled by a very regressive interpretation of
(11:20):
Sharia law. It's yet to be seen what will happen
in Australia, but we know that international situations have flow
on effects here. And it's not just in Syria where
we've seen a resurgence in Islamic States activity. For several
years now, they've been rebuilding in what they call their
(11:42):
provinces in Afghanistan and parts of Africa. They've become a
group that's spread across multiple geographic locations, but is still
very centrally organized, and authorities are on alert. Across the West,
we've seen a sharp increase in the number of attacks
(12:06):
and plots, particularly last year in Russia, in Iran, earlier
this year in New Orleans, and we know that Australian
authorities are worried about the same thing. Happening here. I mean,
through our investigation, we've seen the way this network in
Australia has been re energizing itself, the way that Wissum
(12:28):
her Dad has been working with terrorist leaders who have
recently been released from jail, and he's now got a
sister prayer center in Melbourne working hand in hand with him.
So it's certainly increasing the tempo of what authorities need
(12:48):
to look at here. And we know as well that
it's a few years after a war abroad that you
start to see terrorist activity domestic. So we saw that
after the Iraq war, we saw it after the war
in Afghanistan. And the current fear is around what will
(13:10):
people do who are extremely angry about the human rights
situation and many many deaths in Gaza, what might they
do here under the influence of jihadi preachers poisoning their minds.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
Sean, thank you so much for attacking the time to speak.
Speaker 3 (13:31):
With this my pleasure.
Speaker 1 (13:35):
You can watch Sean Rubinstein Dunlop's Four Corners report entitled
The Agent Inside an iView or YouTube and read his
reporting on ABC News Online. Also in the news, the
government has announced a Japanese company will build new warships
(13:58):
for the Royal Australian Navy at a cost of ten
billion dollars. Mitsubishi Heavy Industries will build the new warships
to replace ones that have been in use since the
end of World War II, and Foreign Minister Penny Wong
has worn there's a risk that there will be no
Palestine left to recognize if a path to a two
state solution is not created. The government is under a
(14:20):
new pressure to recognize Palestinian statehood after several of Australia's
allies indicated that we use the September UN meeting in
New York to do so. When asked about Australia's intention
to recognize Palestine, Senator Wong reiterated was a matter of when,
not if. Thanks for listening to seven AM. We'll be
(14:40):
back tomorrow.
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