July 20, 2025 • 11 mins
This is the second episode in a two part series. If you haven’t yet, start by listening to Part 1: How the Epstein conspiracy turned MAGA against Trump.
Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein have a well documented history together. What started off as a friendship eventually turned sour, with Trump claiming he never really liked him.
But even though there is no evidence that Trump was involved in any of Epstein’s crimes, the association is now doing damage. Not because they were friends, but because Trump promised answers to his base about Epstein’s connections – and now has failed to give them.
In this episode, tech and power reporter for The Guardian, Nick Robins-Early, on what it will mean for Trump’s grip on power if even a small number of his supporters lose faith in him.
If you enjoy 7am, the best way you can support us is by making a contribution at 7ampodcast.com.au/support.
Socials: Stay in touch with us on Instagram
Guest: Tech and power reporter for The Guardian, Nick Robins-Early
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
This is the second episode in a two party to view.
The first part is called Part one. Had the Epstein
Conspiracy turned Maga against Trump? It's in your feed now, Nick,
If you go further back, it's well known that Donald
Trump and Jeffrey Epstein were friends. Can you just trace
their relationship for us?
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Yeah, it does go back quite a while. They just
both existed in the same social circles. They were in
this sort of wealthy Manhattan elite and then also in
this sort of wealthy Florida elite during the nineties and
early two thousands, and so they were just swimming in
the same pool and within that pool. It does seem
(00:43):
like that they were legitimately friends. And there was a
New York magazine profile of Epstein in the early two
thousands in which Trump specifically called Epstein a terrific guy.
Speaker 3 (00:54):
He said, quote, I've known Jeff for fifteen years. Terrific guy.
He's a lot of fun to be with, and has
even said that he likes beautiful women as much as
I do, and many of them are on the younger side,
No bad doubt about it.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
They did have a falling out. It was reportedly over
this real estate deal that they both wanted to buy
a mansion in Florida, and then that fell apart, and
later on Trump said that he never liked him, was
never really friends with him, banned him from mar A Lago.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
Well, I knew him like everybody in Palm Beach knew him.
I mean people in Palm Beach knew him. He was
a fixture in Palm Beach. I had a falling out
with him a long time ago. I don't think I've
spoken to him for fifteen years. I wasn't a fan.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
But there's a pretty documented long list of them having
a lot of social ties.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
What are the chances that they're actually he's a least
at Trump's names owned that least.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
You know, what makes a really good conspiracy is to
begin with a kernel of truth and then blow it up.
But you don't just have a kernel of truth here.
You have much more than that this happened. This was
a legitimate crime. It is a legitimate scandal, it's a
legitimate tragedy. What happened to victims? And there is just
(02:06):
more to know about this. Whether or not there is
a physical list somewhere, I think is at this point
relatively doubtful that there is just a perfect document in
a Manila envelope somewhere that you can pick out and
it will say exactly who everyone was and what they did,
and Trump's name will be on it. But I think
(02:27):
that there's enough open ended questions right now of who
was involved with Epstein, who was person in a position
of power, whether it's Trump, whether it's Bill Clinton, whatever
side of the political spectrum that you're on, there are
unanswered questions related to this. And regardless of if you're
(02:49):
a quneon conspiracy theorist, or if you're somebody who is
just interested in whether people in power are using it
in impropriety ways or who are involved into various activity,
that's something that I think kind of everybody can begin
to agree on, which is that we've never really gotten
the full story of this.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
Nick. Of all the controversies Trump has withered, right, delegations
of civil finding against Team January Seeks being paged twice,
why is this issue cutting through with Trump's supporters.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
Yeah, I think that for a lot of those controversies
and scandals that you mentioned, things that Trump had always
denied from the get go, that his audience and his
followers were really primed to disbelieve from day one with this,
it's a little bit different. It's something that they have
(03:49):
always really really cared about since the Epstein scandal broke.
It's something that Republicans have harped on about relentlessly. It's
something that magaworld media figed have harped on about relentlessly.
And for followers of a more extreme conspiracy movement around QAnon,
(04:09):
it's really central to their worldview. And so one of
the things that people hate the most in politics of hypocrisy,
and this is very, very blatantly hypocritical in the way
that a lot of these figures were stoking this conspiracy
and are now telling the average person to not worry
about it and forget about it. In terms of what
(04:33):
this will do to Trump's standing, I think that it
will make him more associated with politicians the machine DC
and so if Trump becomes more associated with that and
less associated with his status as this outsider coming in
(04:53):
breaking up the lies and bureaucracy and the so called
swamp of Washington, people just might were not going to
believe in this guy as this sort of hero narrative
that has long been presented anymore.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
After the break, Rupert Murdoch arrives on the scene. Nick.
Late last week, the Wall Street Journal published a letter
they say he's from Trump to Epstein. Trump has now
threatened to sue the newspaper and Rupert Murdoch over it.
(05:32):
He also said he's directed his Attorney General, Pam Bondi
to release small files about Epstein to the public. So
what was in the letter that sit him off?
Speaker 2 (05:41):
There was a birthday book of well wishes around two
thousand and three sent to Epstein, and Trump wrote in
this book and his message to Jeffrey Epstein for his
birthday quote.
Speaker 4 (05:56):
This is from the Wall Street Journal. The letter bearing
Trump's name, which was reviewed why their journal, is body
like others in the album. It contains several lines of
typri and text, framed by the outline of a naked woman,
which appears to be hand drawn with a heavy marker.
A pair of small arcs denotes the woman's breasts, and
the future president's signature is a squiggly donald blow her waist,
(06:18):
mimicking pubic hair. The letter concludes, happy birthday and may
every day be another wonderful secret.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
Trump has denied that message and says that it's fake,
but it appears well sourced, and it appears fairly damning
in terms of the collection of evidence that they have
this history together, and.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
So the whole thing is moving quickly and is far
from over. How important is it for Trump right now
to ensure total loyalty from the paper around him?
Speaker 2 (06:47):
Yeah, I mean Trump really prizes loyalty. I think that's
one of the traits that he may value above all
else when it comes to people he works with. And
so so far people have been largely falling in line
within his administration, and he is going to say, look,
(07:08):
you know, now is the time to rally around me.
This is a moment in which we can't have anybody
be speaking out against the administration. So far, Pam Bondi
has been towing the line very well in that respect,
and Trump has praised her for it. Trump has said
she's doing an amazing job.
Speaker 4 (07:25):
He's really done a very good job.
Speaker 3 (07:27):
And I think that.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
When you look at it, you'll understand that. I would
like to see that also, But I think the Attorney
general the credibility is very important, and you want credible.
Speaker 4 (07:38):
Evidence or something like that, and I think the Attorney
General has handled it very well.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
And so you know, as long as she continues to
be a sort of heat shield for him, she's a
pretty useful person for him to have around.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
So his team looks like they're reminding loyal. But if
he's Spie Dessert seem out of these what impact will
that have when his political feature.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
While Trump is in power, while he's not campaigning for
anything right now, he does need this base, He needs
his support. There is still a tendency of Trump to
really care about his popularity and really care about whether
people like him. And there's been you know, internal polling
from Democrats that show that this is resonating with voters
(08:25):
and that if not, you know, switching them to Democrat,
it just may not make them as willing to vote
Republican come midterms. It may make them shy away and
make them disenfranchised with Trump if they feel that this
is sort of a false promise that he made, or
that the belief that they had that he would release
(08:46):
the files and prove that he was the savior that
was promised never materializes. So I think that there's a
real risk. I think that things are so closely fought
in American politics right now that even losing a small
portion of your base is potentially devastating, just because the
(09:06):
margins are so thin on a lot of elections and
a lot of policy votes, and so yeah, it could
have a real impact, especially as he tries to push
policies through that he needs full support of Republican lawmakers for.
And if there are people who are on the hard right,
far right side of the party who are beholden to
a magabase that is really upset about this, they may
(09:30):
not as readily side with Republican initiatives if they can't
get what they want and prove to their base that
they're working towards sort of uncovering the Epstein conspiracy. I
think Trump's risk right now is that he does see
more defections, he does see more people who break with
(09:52):
him on this, and that people don't believe what he's
trying to feed them of. This isn't a big deal.
I know nothing about this, I was never involved. It's
all fake and it's tough for people to believe that
when presented with the idea that Trump turned his back
on them. And I think that that betrayal would really
(10:14):
resonate with a lot of people who previously were extremely
diehard about supporting.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
Nick. Thank you once again for coming on and speaking
to us.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (10:35):
Also in the years liberally to Jeremy Rockcliffe has claimed
victory in the Tasmanian state election after his party secured
more seats than Labor the Liberals from fourteen seats to
Labour's nine, with neither party reaching the eighteen seats required
to govern outright. Despite that, Rockliff says who lost the
governor to recommission his government, describing Labour's result as a
(10:56):
repudiation of his rivals. And Latham has rejected reports about
his alleged behavior towards former partner Natalie Matthews, calling them false,
reckless and irresponsible. Matthews is seeking in apprehended domestic violence
order against Latham, alleging a sustained pattern of abuse and manipulation.
(11:16):
Latham says he has broken no law and police are
not laid charges. His parliamentary colleagues have also criticized him
over derogatory messages he sent about female MPs. I'm Daniel James.
This is seven am. Thanks for listening.
This is the second episode in a two party to view.
The first part is called Part one. Had the Epstein
Conspiracy turned Maga against Trump? It's in your feed now, Nick,
If you go further back, it's well known that Donald
Trump and Jeffrey Epstein were friends. Can you just trace
their relationship for us?
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Yeah, it does go back quite a while. They just
both existed in the same social circles. They were in
this sort of wealthy Manhattan elite and then also in
this sort of wealthy Florida elite during the nineties and
early two thousands, and so they were just swimming in
the same pool and within that pool. It does seem
(00:43):
like that they were legitimately friends. And there was a
New York magazine profile of Epstein in the early two
thousands in which Trump specifically called Epstein a terrific guy.
Speaker 3 (00:54):
He said, quote, I've known Jeff for fifteen years. Terrific guy.
He's a lot of fun to be with, and has
even said that he likes beautiful women as much as
I do, and many of them are on the younger side,
No bad doubt about it.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
They did have a falling out. It was reportedly over
this real estate deal that they both wanted to buy
a mansion in Florida, and then that fell apart, and
later on Trump said that he never liked him, was
never really friends with him, banned him from mar A Lago.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
Well, I knew him like everybody in Palm Beach knew him.
I mean people in Palm Beach knew him. He was
a fixture in Palm Beach. I had a falling out
with him a long time ago. I don't think I've
spoken to him for fifteen years. I wasn't a fan.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
But there's a pretty documented long list of them having
a lot of social ties.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
What are the chances that they're actually he's a least
at Trump's names owned that least.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
You know, what makes a really good conspiracy is to
begin with a kernel of truth and then blow it up.
But you don't just have a kernel of truth here.
You have much more than that this happened. This was
a legitimate crime. It is a legitimate scandal, it's a
legitimate tragedy. What happened to victims? And there is just
(02:06):
more to know about this. Whether or not there is
a physical list somewhere, I think is at this point
relatively doubtful that there is just a perfect document in
a Manila envelope somewhere that you can pick out and
it will say exactly who everyone was and what they did,
and Trump's name will be on it. But I think
(02:27):
that there's enough open ended questions right now of who
was involved with Epstein, who was person in a position
of power, whether it's Trump, whether it's Bill Clinton, whatever
side of the political spectrum that you're on, there are
unanswered questions related to this. And regardless of if you're
(02:49):
a quneon conspiracy theorist, or if you're somebody who is
just interested in whether people in power are using it
in impropriety ways or who are involved into various activity,
that's something that I think kind of everybody can begin
to agree on, which is that we've never really gotten
the full story of this.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
Nick. Of all the controversies Trump has withered, right, delegations
of civil finding against Team January Seeks being paged twice,
why is this issue cutting through with Trump's supporters.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
Yeah, I think that for a lot of those controversies
and scandals that you mentioned, things that Trump had always
denied from the get go, that his audience and his
followers were really primed to disbelieve from day one with this,
it's a little bit different. It's something that they have
(03:49):
always really really cared about since the Epstein scandal broke.
It's something that Republicans have harped on about relentlessly. It's
something that magaworld media figed have harped on about relentlessly.
And for followers of a more extreme conspiracy movement around QAnon,
(04:09):
it's really central to their worldview. And so one of
the things that people hate the most in politics of hypocrisy,
and this is very, very blatantly hypocritical in the way
that a lot of these figures were stoking this conspiracy
and are now telling the average person to not worry
about it and forget about it. In terms of what
(04:33):
this will do to Trump's standing, I think that it
will make him more associated with politicians the machine DC
and so if Trump becomes more associated with that and
less associated with his status as this outsider coming in
(04:53):
breaking up the lies and bureaucracy and the so called
swamp of Washington, people just might were not going to
believe in this guy as this sort of hero narrative
that has long been presented anymore.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
After the break, Rupert Murdoch arrives on the scene. Nick.
Late last week, the Wall Street Journal published a letter
they say he's from Trump to Epstein. Trump has now
threatened to sue the newspaper and Rupert Murdoch over it.
(05:32):
He also said he's directed his Attorney General, Pam Bondi
to release small files about Epstein to the public. So
what was in the letter that sit him off?
Speaker 2 (05:41):
There was a birthday book of well wishes around two
thousand and three sent to Epstein, and Trump wrote in
this book and his message to Jeffrey Epstein for his
birthday quote.
Speaker 4 (05:56):
This is from the Wall Street Journal. The letter bearing
Trump's name, which was reviewed why their journal, is body
like others in the album. It contains several lines of
typri and text, framed by the outline of a naked woman,
which appears to be hand drawn with a heavy marker.
A pair of small arcs denotes the woman's breasts, and
the future president's signature is a squiggly donald blow her waist,
(06:18):
mimicking pubic hair. The letter concludes, happy birthday and may
every day be another wonderful secret.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
Trump has denied that message and says that it's fake,
but it appears well sourced, and it appears fairly damning
in terms of the collection of evidence that they have
this history together, and.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
So the whole thing is moving quickly and is far
from over. How important is it for Trump right now
to ensure total loyalty from the paper around him?
Speaker 2 (06:47):
Yeah, I mean Trump really prizes loyalty. I think that's
one of the traits that he may value above all
else when it comes to people he works with. And
so so far people have been largely falling in line
within his administration, and he is going to say, look,
(07:08):
you know, now is the time to rally around me.
This is a moment in which we can't have anybody
be speaking out against the administration. So far, Pam Bondi
has been towing the line very well in that respect,
and Trump has praised her for it. Trump has said
she's doing an amazing job.
Speaker 4 (07:25):
He's really done a very good job.
Speaker 3 (07:27):
And I think that.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
When you look at it, you'll understand that. I would
like to see that also, But I think the Attorney
general the credibility is very important, and you want credible.
Speaker 4 (07:38):
Evidence or something like that, and I think the Attorney
General has handled it very well.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
And so you know, as long as she continues to
be a sort of heat shield for him, she's a
pretty useful person for him to have around.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
So his team looks like they're reminding loyal. But if
he's Spie Dessert seem out of these what impact will
that have when his political feature.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
While Trump is in power, while he's not campaigning for
anything right now, he does need this base, He needs
his support. There is still a tendency of Trump to
really care about his popularity and really care about whether
people like him. And there's been you know, internal polling
from Democrats that show that this is resonating with voters
(08:25):
and that if not, you know, switching them to Democrat,
it just may not make them as willing to vote
Republican come midterms. It may make them shy away and
make them disenfranchised with Trump if they feel that this
is sort of a false promise that he made, or
that the belief that they had that he would release
(08:46):
the files and prove that he was the savior that
was promised never materializes. So I think that there's a
real risk. I think that things are so closely fought
in American politics right now that even losing a small
portion of your base is potentially devastating, just because the
(09:06):
margins are so thin on a lot of elections and
a lot of policy votes, and so yeah, it could
have a real impact, especially as he tries to push
policies through that he needs full support of Republican lawmakers for.
And if there are people who are on the hard right,
far right side of the party who are beholden to
a magabase that is really upset about this, they may
(09:30):
not as readily side with Republican initiatives if they can't
get what they want and prove to their base that
they're working towards sort of uncovering the Epstein conspiracy. I
think Trump's risk right now is that he does see
more defections, he does see more people who break with
(09:52):
him on this, and that people don't believe what he's
trying to feed them of. This isn't a big deal.
I know nothing about this, I was never involved. It's
all fake and it's tough for people to believe that
when presented with the idea that Trump turned his back
on them. And I think that that betrayal would really
(10:14):
resonate with a lot of people who previously were extremely
diehard about supporting.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
Nick. Thank you once again for coming on and speaking
to us.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (10:35):
Also in the years liberally to Jeremy Rockcliffe has claimed
victory in the Tasmanian state election after his party secured
more seats than Labor the Liberals from fourteen seats to
Labour's nine, with neither party reaching the eighteen seats required
to govern outright. Despite that, Rockliff says who lost the
governor to recommission his government, describing Labour's result as a
(10:56):
repudiation of his rivals. And Latham has rejected reports about
his alleged behavior towards former partner Natalie Matthews, calling them false,
reckless and irresponsible. Matthews is seeking in apprehended domestic violence
order against Latham, alleging a sustained pattern of abuse and manipulation.
(11:16):
Latham says he has broken no law and police are
not laid charges. His parliamentary colleagues have also criticized him
over derogatory messages he sent about female MPs. I'm Daniel James.
This is seven am. Thanks for listening.
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