July 21, 2025 • 14 mins
When UNESCO voted to put the Murujuga Cultural Landscape in north-west Australia on the World Heritage List, they recognised the ancient rock art as a “masterpiece of human creative genius”.
It was a reflection of the work of the Murujuga traditional owners who fought for the carvings to be recognised on the world stage.
But what went on behind the scenes shows the limits of a heritage listing when it comes to stopping gas companies, the governments that profit from the burning of fossil fuels, or the effects of climate change heritage listing does to stop gas companies, the government that profits from them, or the effects of climate change.
Today, national correspondent for The Saturday Paper Mike Seccombe on UNESCO, Woodside, and the future of the Murujuga.
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Guest: National correspondent for The Saturday Paper Mike Seccombe
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Weber Lal Milba. You're listening to seven am. I'm Ruby Jones.
We have all come here together and from far away
from the mura Yuga lands. When UNESCO voted to put
the Murajuga cultural landscape in Northwest Australia on the World
(00:23):
Heritage List, they recognized the ancient rock art as a
masterpiece of human creative genius. It was a reflection of
the work of the Muraduga traditional owners who fought for
the carvings to be recognized on the world stage two.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Or three decades ago. This journey started on a lot
of by our old people.
Speaker 3 (00:43):
They're not here today.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
This this is for them. And what I'd also like
to say just quickly, is that today we create our
own stories in the stone.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
But what went on behind the scenes shows how little
a heritage listing does to stop gas companies, the government
that profits from them, all the effects of climate change. Today.
National correspondent from the Saturday Paper Mike Sekham on YUNESCO,
Woodside and the future of the Marojuga. It's Tuesday, July
(01:19):
twenty two, So Mike, let's start with this site that
is at the center of this debate. The Marojuga in
northwest western Australia. Tell me a bit about the place.
Why is it so.
Speaker 3 (01:36):
Significant, Well, it's the site of millions of petroglyphs, one
to possibly two million. They haven't finished documenting them all,
which are scattered across the Barrett Peninsula and the damp
Here Archipelago.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
Mala holand.
Speaker 4 (01:57):
Yoga is a place that, you know, it's respected by
the Aboriginal people of this area and it's come to
be respected by the wider community for what's here. You know,
it's the Bible of Aboriginal people. Soame as white men
got a church.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
These patroglyphs, of course, are evidence of continuous human habitation
for fifty thousand years or more, so it's a big deal.
This is possibly the biggest collection of ancient rock art
anywhere in the world, and for the past twenty odd
years it's been the subject of a campaign by the
traditional owners to have it listed with UNESCO as a
(02:35):
World Heritage Site.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
Okay, Well, tell me more about that push for UNESCO listing.
What does getting something like that mean for a place
like Marijuga.
Speaker 3 (02:44):
Well, because World Heritage listing is reflected in domestic law.
Essentially it provides an additional layer of protection under the
EPBC Act, that's the Environment Protection and Biodiversity Conservation Act,
to safeguard the future event any site listed. So what
it means in practice is that any actions that have
(03:04):
potential significant impacts on a World Heritage area have to
be ticked off by the Federal Environment Minister.
Speaker 5 (03:12):
So you may remember that a few months ago I
announced my proposed decision about an application to build the
Central Queensland coal Mine.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
For example, a couple of years ago, the former Environment
Minister Tanya Plibasek knocked over a proposal by one of
Clive Palmer's companies to open a new coal mine adjacent
to the Great Berrier Reef on the basis that runoff
from the mine could affect the World Heritage values of
the reef.
Speaker 5 (03:35):
The project would have had unacceptable impacts on freshwater in
the area and potentially on fragile seagrass meadows that feed
jugongs and provide breeding grounds for fish just off the coast.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
In the case of Marojogga, of course, the area is
already home to heavy industry. There's a huge gas export
facility in the port of Karatha that's run by Woodside Energy. Incidentally,
when Woodside was building it's gas plant, it basically destroyed
a whole bunch of these petroglyphs, blew them up. Essentially,
they removed some more, but they completely destroyed others. There
(04:09):
were concerns voiced by some scientists, by environmentalists and by
traditional owners that emissions from the industry in the area
were degrading the rock art. So one particular group of
traditional custodians, that Save our Songlines group, joined with conservationists
and I guess you could say saw Murga as a
(04:31):
chance to not only protect the rock art but also
to curb the carbon emissions coming out of the area,
and at the start of the year UNESCO agreed with them.
They found that the government's proposal for listing should be
referred back to the government for further work.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
Okay, so what happened after that.
Speaker 3 (04:50):
Well, there was a draft decision on May twenty six
from an advisory body to UNESCO that found that the
emissions from the heavy industry, including Woodside, was degrading the
rocket and they proposed some pretty radical measures requiring the
government to earn I'm quoting here, ensure the total removal
of degrading acidic emissions and to prevent any further development
(05:13):
and to plan for the decommissioning of the industry already
there so was a pretty big deal. Problem was two
days later the Federal Labor government released a proposed decision
from the new Environment Minister Murray Watt that would allow
Woodside to keep operating the gas facility and the port.
He proposed to allow operations that were to have finished
(05:34):
in twenty thirty to continue for another forty years, that
is out to twenty seventy.
Speaker 6 (05:39):
Today, Federal Environment Minister Murray Watt approved an extension to
the nearby Northwest Shelf Project, subject to strict conditions relating
to the impact of air emissions from the operation of
an expanded onshore Caratha gas plant.
Speaker 3 (05:55):
And that in turn paves the way for a whole
bunch of new fossil fuel projects, you know, gas mining
in the northwest of Western Australia to feed this plant.
So bottom line to all of this is that the
estimate is that the area could produce what environmentalists are
calling accurately, I would suggest a carbon bomb, you know,
releasing four point three billion with a b tons of
(06:18):
carbon dioxide into the atmosphere over the life of the planet. Right.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
So that's two very different competing visions for the future
of the Morro Jugger. One where the rock cut is
protected and the fossil fuel industry in the area is dismantled,
and the other is where the entire area becomes, as
you say, a carbon bomb, and there's the potential for
(06:42):
even more mining developments to open up. So tell me
what happened.
Speaker 3 (06:47):
Well, the World Heritage Committee earlier this month unanimously decided
to list Moro Juggur, So that's the good news. But
it also amended the earlier draft decision and walked back
the proposed d industrialization of the area. So the traditional
owners now have UNESCO Heritage listing for Moro Juga. Great,
but Woodside can keep on operating, you know, with all
(07:09):
the attendant climate consequences.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
After the break the afternoon tea that led to UNESCO changing.
Speaker 7 (07:16):
Their mind, I therefore declared the Drug Decision Decision forty
seven come eight to b point thirteen adopted as amended.
Speaker 1 (07:36):
Okay, So Mike, tell me then what we know about
UNESCO's decision making here to list the area.
Speaker 3 (07:44):
But with this amendment, well, it seems to be the
result of furious lobbying in the first place by the
Australian government. Murray what, for example, hosted more than a
dozen ambassadors from nations that are currently represented on the
World Heritage Committee, had them around for tea duchess them,
presumably with a view to getting this result. He's been
(08:04):
lobbying in other international forums. And furthermore, he pronounced the
draft decision was full of what he called factual inaccuracies,
and that it relied on media and NGO advice IE
environment groups rather than scientific advice in reaching its earlier
decision that the area should be de industrialized.
Speaker 8 (08:23):
In the end, what persuaded the committee was both the
scientific evidence that was put forward which disputed some of
the claims that were being made, but also the genuine
passion from the traditional owners to see this World Heritage
listing be secured.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
Right, Okay, so tell me who is right here?
Speaker 3 (08:45):
Well, this is where it gets complicated, right. There is
scientific and expert evidence on both sides of the issue. Here.
There is scientific and expert evidence of damage to the petroglyphs,
but a recent report involving about fifty scientists and the
more Jugger Aboriginal Corporation who were proposing the listing, and
the WA Department of Water and Environmental Regulation found that
(09:09):
there had been damage to the rock Cart, but much
of it was from historic emissions, not current ones, in
particular a decommission powerhouse that used to be there, And
the finding was that acid rain had damaged the rock
cart in the past, but what was causing the acid
rain was sulfur dioxide emissions. There was a lot of
sulfur in those days in the fuel that was used
(09:31):
by industry. There is no longer nearly as much sulfur
and fuel as there used to be, so the finding
was that there was no longer a problem with acid rain.
The rain that was falling on these petroglyphs was pretty
much pH neutral or slightly alkaline. So on this very
specific issue of acid rain damaging the rock cart, they
found it was no longer a problem. Of course, then
(09:53):
there's the broader problem of greenhouse gases. But as the
scientist told me, that wasn't their brief. They weren't there
to assess wh that this was bad for the climate.
They accept that it's bad for the climate. They were
there to assess whether it was bad for the rock
Art and they determined it wasn't.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
So, Mike, we've gone from having this draft decision which
says that the rock art needs to be protected from
these industries, to then having this finding that says, well,
it can be listed with the industries that are damaging
it can also continue. So does this really undermine the
meaning of even providing a UNESCO listing?
Speaker 3 (10:30):
Hard question? I think unbalanced. It's a good thing that
it's been a World Heritage listed, right, So that's the case.
And Minister what has said that he will impose some
conditions on industry in the area. We haven't seen those
yet because so far, you know, we've only got his
proposed decision. We have ongoing negotiations between his department and
(10:50):
Woodside about the conditions that might pertain, So we'll have
to wait and see about those. But you know, there's
a bunch of money at the bottom of this, isn't there.
I mean, Woodside has contribute a lot of royalties and
tax dollars to the Australian treasury over the years following
the extension that you know, obviously they will contribute a
lot more. The Western Australian government in particular is very
(11:12):
much beholden to the gas industry, and by extension, so
is the federal government, because the federal government wants to
hold on to its seats in Western Australia. So you know,
the process does seem to have been very much the
result of lobbying. Some of the more Juga traditional owners
that Save our song Lians group complained that they didn't
get a sufficient chance to state their case at the
(11:33):
World Heriage meeting in Paris. Various of the countries that
sponsored the amendments to the original draft to remove them
were big in the gas industry. You know, Japan, Koreer
take a lot of Australian gas. Qatar was in They're
a major gas producer. So there's a sort of somewhat
unholy mix here of the profit motive and electoral incentives
(11:56):
for the labor government.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
So where does all of this leave us, Mike, what
does the few to look like?
Speaker 3 (12:00):
For more Jogger, Well, I would make the point that Katha,
which is the nearest town which is where these industrial
facilities are, it's already one of the hottest places in Australia.
I mean it has a record temperature that approaches fifty
degrees celsius. You'd have to think that, you know, another
another forty years fifty years of emissions from the gas
industry in Australia is only going to make things worse.
(12:24):
So you know, climate change, we know it's going to happen.
There will be sea level rises which will incidentally affect
some of the petroglyphs. It's a very cyclonic area up there.
There will be bigger, more powerful storms. Like I said,
it's already one of the hottest parts of Australia, if
not the world. So the petroglyphs may survive, but you
have to wonder how the traditional custodians will endure the
(12:47):
climate of the future.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
Mike, thank you for your time.
Speaker 3 (12:52):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (12:55):
We've invited Environment Minister Murray what on the show. We
hope to bring you in interview with him soon. Also
in the news, Larissa Waters has backed the decision making
process that led to the expulsion of one of the
Australian Green's co founders from the party, saying nobody is
(13:18):
above the rules. Co founder Drew Hutton was removed from
the Greens over claims he fostered debate the party deems
as transphobic Following a complaint, a Greens committee found that
while Hutton himself had not demeaned trans women, he had
provided a platform for others to do so. Hutton says
the dispute is a matter of free speech and the
Greens have lost their way. Meanwhile, Waters says the party's
(13:41):
work on environmental, climate, economic and social justice doesn't stop
because of one man's focus on how other people identify it,
and Victorian Premier to Center Alan has promised a statewide
register of childcare within weeks. Alan conceded that childcare regulations
have not worked after revelations that allowed adg pedophile Joshua
Dale Brown was sacked from multiple centers and able to
(14:04):
continue working across the state. The Premier didn't comment on
the specifics of Brown's case, but said the Working with
Children CHECH process would be considered as part of a
broad review into the sector, and that the state based
register would eventually be absorbed into a national register. I'm
Ruby Jones. This is seven am. Thanks for listening.
Weber Lal Milba. You're listening to seven am. I'm Ruby Jones.
We have all come here together and from far away
from the mura Yuga lands. When UNESCO voted to put
the Murajuga cultural landscape in Northwest Australia on the World
(00:23):
Heritage List, they recognized the ancient rock art as a
masterpiece of human creative genius. It was a reflection of
the work of the Muraduga traditional owners who fought for
the carvings to be recognized on the world stage two.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Or three decades ago. This journey started on a lot
of by our old people.
Speaker 3 (00:43):
They're not here today.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
This this is for them. And what I'd also like
to say just quickly, is that today we create our
own stories in the stone.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
But what went on behind the scenes shows how little
a heritage listing does to stop gas companies, the government
that profits from them, all the effects of climate change. Today.
National correspondent from the Saturday Paper Mike Sekham on YUNESCO,
Woodside and the future of the Marojuga. It's Tuesday, July
(01:19):
twenty two, So Mike, let's start with this site that
is at the center of this debate. The Marojuga in
northwest western Australia. Tell me a bit about the place.
Why is it so.
Speaker 3 (01:36):
Significant, Well, it's the site of millions of petroglyphs, one
to possibly two million. They haven't finished documenting them all,
which are scattered across the Barrett Peninsula and the damp
Here Archipelago.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
Mala holand.
Speaker 4 (01:57):
Yoga is a place that, you know, it's respected by
the Aboriginal people of this area and it's come to
be respected by the wider community for what's here. You know,
it's the Bible of Aboriginal people. Soame as white men
got a church.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
These patroglyphs, of course, are evidence of continuous human habitation
for fifty thousand years or more, so it's a big deal.
This is possibly the biggest collection of ancient rock art
anywhere in the world, and for the past twenty odd
years it's been the subject of a campaign by the
traditional owners to have it listed with UNESCO as a
(02:35):
World Heritage Site.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
Okay, Well, tell me more about that push for UNESCO listing.
What does getting something like that mean for a place
like Marijuga.
Speaker 3 (02:44):
Well, because World Heritage listing is reflected in domestic law.
Essentially it provides an additional layer of protection under the
EPBC Act, that's the Environment Protection and Biodiversity Conservation Act,
to safeguard the future event any site listed. So what
it means in practice is that any actions that have
(03:04):
potential significant impacts on a World Heritage area have to
be ticked off by the Federal Environment Minister.
Speaker 5 (03:12):
So you may remember that a few months ago I
announced my proposed decision about an application to build the
Central Queensland coal Mine.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
For example, a couple of years ago, the former Environment
Minister Tanya Plibasek knocked over a proposal by one of
Clive Palmer's companies to open a new coal mine adjacent
to the Great Berrier Reef on the basis that runoff
from the mine could affect the World Heritage values of
the reef.
Speaker 5 (03:35):
The project would have had unacceptable impacts on freshwater in
the area and potentially on fragile seagrass meadows that feed
jugongs and provide breeding grounds for fish just off the coast.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
In the case of Marojogga, of course, the area is
already home to heavy industry. There's a huge gas export
facility in the port of Karatha that's run by Woodside Energy. Incidentally,
when Woodside was building it's gas plant, it basically destroyed
a whole bunch of these petroglyphs, blew them up. Essentially,
they removed some more, but they completely destroyed others. There
(04:09):
were concerns voiced by some scientists, by environmentalists and by
traditional owners that emissions from the industry in the area
were degrading the rock art. So one particular group of
traditional custodians, that Save our Songlines group, joined with conservationists
and I guess you could say saw Murga as a
(04:31):
chance to not only protect the rock art but also
to curb the carbon emissions coming out of the area,
and at the start of the year UNESCO agreed with them.
They found that the government's proposal for listing should be
referred back to the government for further work.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
Okay, so what happened after that.
Speaker 3 (04:50):
Well, there was a draft decision on May twenty six
from an advisory body to UNESCO that found that the
emissions from the heavy industry, including Woodside, was degrading the
rocket and they proposed some pretty radical measures requiring the
government to earn I'm quoting here, ensure the total removal
of degrading acidic emissions and to prevent any further development
(05:13):
and to plan for the decommissioning of the industry already
there so was a pretty big deal. Problem was two
days later the Federal Labor government released a proposed decision
from the new Environment Minister Murray Watt that would allow
Woodside to keep operating the gas facility and the port.
He proposed to allow operations that were to have finished
(05:34):
in twenty thirty to continue for another forty years, that
is out to twenty seventy.
Speaker 6 (05:39):
Today, Federal Environment Minister Murray Watt approved an extension to
the nearby Northwest Shelf Project, subject to strict conditions relating
to the impact of air emissions from the operation of
an expanded onshore Caratha gas plant.
Speaker 3 (05:55):
And that in turn paves the way for a whole
bunch of new fossil fuel projects, you know, gas mining
in the northwest of Western Australia to feed this plant.
So bottom line to all of this is that the
estimate is that the area could produce what environmentalists are
calling accurately, I would suggest a carbon bomb, you know,
releasing four point three billion with a b tons of
(06:18):
carbon dioxide into the atmosphere over the life of the planet. Right.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
So that's two very different competing visions for the future
of the Morro Jugger. One where the rock cut is
protected and the fossil fuel industry in the area is dismantled,
and the other is where the entire area becomes, as
you say, a carbon bomb, and there's the potential for
(06:42):
even more mining developments to open up. So tell me
what happened.
Speaker 3 (06:47):
Well, the World Heritage Committee earlier this month unanimously decided
to list Moro Juggur, So that's the good news. But
it also amended the earlier draft decision and walked back
the proposed d industrialization of the area. So the traditional
owners now have UNESCO Heritage listing for Moro Juga. Great,
but Woodside can keep on operating, you know, with all
(07:09):
the attendant climate consequences.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
After the break the afternoon tea that led to UNESCO changing.
Speaker 7 (07:16):
Their mind, I therefore declared the Drug Decision Decision forty
seven come eight to b point thirteen adopted as amended.
Speaker 1 (07:36):
Okay, So Mike, tell me then what we know about
UNESCO's decision making here to list the area.
Speaker 3 (07:44):
But with this amendment, well, it seems to be the
result of furious lobbying in the first place by the
Australian government. Murray what, for example, hosted more than a
dozen ambassadors from nations that are currently represented on the
World Heritage Committee, had them around for tea duchess them,
presumably with a view to getting this result. He's been
(08:04):
lobbying in other international forums. And furthermore, he pronounced the
draft decision was full of what he called factual inaccuracies,
and that it relied on media and NGO advice IE
environment groups rather than scientific advice in reaching its earlier
decision that the area should be de industrialized.
Speaker 8 (08:23):
In the end, what persuaded the committee was both the
scientific evidence that was put forward which disputed some of
the claims that were being made, but also the genuine
passion from the traditional owners to see this World Heritage
listing be secured.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
Right, Okay, so tell me who is right here?
Speaker 3 (08:45):
Well, this is where it gets complicated, right. There is
scientific and expert evidence on both sides of the issue. Here.
There is scientific and expert evidence of damage to the petroglyphs,
but a recent report involving about fifty scientists and the
more Jugger Aboriginal Corporation who were proposing the listing, and
the WA Department of Water and Environmental Regulation found that
(09:09):
there had been damage to the rock Cart, but much
of it was from historic emissions, not current ones, in
particular a decommission powerhouse that used to be there, And
the finding was that acid rain had damaged the rock
cart in the past, but what was causing the acid
rain was sulfur dioxide emissions. There was a lot of
sulfur in those days in the fuel that was used
(09:31):
by industry. There is no longer nearly as much sulfur
and fuel as there used to be, so the finding
was that there was no longer a problem with acid rain.
The rain that was falling on these petroglyphs was pretty
much pH neutral or slightly alkaline. So on this very
specific issue of acid rain damaging the rock cart, they
found it was no longer a problem. Of course, then
(09:53):
there's the broader problem of greenhouse gases. But as the
scientist told me, that wasn't their brief. They weren't there
to assess wh that this was bad for the climate.
They accept that it's bad for the climate. They were
there to assess whether it was bad for the rock
Art and they determined it wasn't.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
So, Mike, we've gone from having this draft decision which
says that the rock art needs to be protected from
these industries, to then having this finding that says, well,
it can be listed with the industries that are damaging
it can also continue. So does this really undermine the
meaning of even providing a UNESCO listing?
Speaker 3 (10:30):
Hard question? I think unbalanced. It's a good thing that
it's been a World Heritage listed, right, So that's the case.
And Minister what has said that he will impose some
conditions on industry in the area. We haven't seen those
yet because so far, you know, we've only got his
proposed decision. We have ongoing negotiations between his department and
(10:50):
Woodside about the conditions that might pertain, So we'll have
to wait and see about those. But you know, there's
a bunch of money at the bottom of this, isn't there.
I mean, Woodside has contribute a lot of royalties and
tax dollars to the Australian treasury over the years following
the extension that you know, obviously they will contribute a
lot more. The Western Australian government in particular is very
(11:12):
much beholden to the gas industry, and by extension, so
is the federal government, because the federal government wants to
hold on to its seats in Western Australia. So you know,
the process does seem to have been very much the
result of lobbying. Some of the more Juga traditional owners
that Save our song Lians group complained that they didn't
get a sufficient chance to state their case at the
(11:33):
World Heriage meeting in Paris. Various of the countries that
sponsored the amendments to the original draft to remove them
were big in the gas industry. You know, Japan, Koreer
take a lot of Australian gas. Qatar was in They're
a major gas producer. So there's a sort of somewhat
unholy mix here of the profit motive and electoral incentives
(11:56):
for the labor government.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
So where does all of this leave us, Mike, what
does the few to look like?
Speaker 3 (12:00):
For more Jogger, Well, I would make the point that Katha,
which is the nearest town which is where these industrial
facilities are, it's already one of the hottest places in Australia.
I mean it has a record temperature that approaches fifty
degrees celsius. You'd have to think that, you know, another
another forty years fifty years of emissions from the gas
industry in Australia is only going to make things worse.
(12:24):
So you know, climate change, we know it's going to happen.
There will be sea level rises which will incidentally affect
some of the petroglyphs. It's a very cyclonic area up there.
There will be bigger, more powerful storms. Like I said,
it's already one of the hottest parts of Australia, if
not the world. So the petroglyphs may survive, but you
have to wonder how the traditional custodians will endure the
(12:47):
climate of the future.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
Mike, thank you for your time.
Speaker 3 (12:52):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (12:55):
We've invited Environment Minister Murray what on the show. We
hope to bring you in interview with him soon. Also
in the news, Larissa Waters has backed the decision making
process that led to the expulsion of one of the
Australian Green's co founders from the party, saying nobody is
(13:18):
above the rules. Co founder Drew Hutton was removed from
the Greens over claims he fostered debate the party deems
as transphobic Following a complaint, a Greens committee found that
while Hutton himself had not demeaned trans women, he had
provided a platform for others to do so. Hutton says
the dispute is a matter of free speech and the
Greens have lost their way. Meanwhile, Waters says the party's
(13:41):
work on environmental, climate, economic and social justice doesn't stop
because of one man's focus on how other people identify it,
and Victorian Premier to Center Alan has promised a statewide
register of childcare within weeks. Alan conceded that childcare regulations
have not worked after revelations that allowed adg pedophile Joshua
Dale Brown was sacked from multiple centers and able to
(14:04):
continue working across the state. The Premier didn't comment on
the specifics of Brown's case, but said the Working with
Children CHECH process would be considered as part of a
broad review into the sector, and that the state based
register would eventually be absorbed into a national register. I'm
Ruby Jones. This is seven am. Thanks for listening.
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