August 4, 2024 • 17 mins
It was supposed to be a routine call out when four police officers attended a property in regional Queensland just before Christmas in 2022.
The young officers approached the house, looking to do a routine welfare check, when they were fired on. After a siege that lasted hours, six people were killed, including two constables.
In the weeks that followed, media reporting focused on the strangeness of the town, and the strangeness of the Train family: two brothers and the woman that had been both of their wives.
Today, journalist and author of The Believer Sarah Krasnostein on the inquest into the Train family murders and the bigger questions that need to be answered if we’re to prevent similar attacks.
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Guest: Journalist and author of The Believer, Sarah Krasnostein
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
That yet Kelly Rachel announce her.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
She's on us first year.
Speaker 3 (00:08):
So the four officers arrive at the property.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
They are Constables Rachel Mcrowe twenty nine, Matthew Arnold twenty six,
Keeley Broth twenty eight, and Randall Kerr twenty eight, very
young junior police officers.
Speaker 3 (00:24):
They find that the gate is locked.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
They jump the fence and they start walking up the
fairly long driveway towards the house.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
The property these four officers are walking to is owned
by Gareth Train and his wife Stacy. The police are
responding to a routine welfare check for Gareth's brother Nathaniel.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
They didn't see the two brothers, Gareth and Nathaniel lying
on the ground in full camo, aiming rifles at them,
and so what followed has been described as both an
ambush and an execution. As Arnold was stepping over the fence,
the brothers shot and killed him. They shot mcrow three times.
(01:08):
Kirk managed to run behind a tree and from there
get back to the police cars, which were under heavy fire.
He was shot in the hip and then he managed
to get away and drive for help.
Speaker 4 (01:22):
I'm in the car.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
Gareth took Arnold's handgun off him, and as she planned
for her life, he killed the wounded mcrow, who was
on the ground.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
With two officers down, The trains continued their ambush.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Roth was hiding in the long grass while all this
was happening, and then the brothers set fire to the
remaining police car and also that long grass in which
he was hiding.
Speaker 3 (01:50):
They were trying to drive her out into the open.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
At this point a neighbor he's the noise of gunfire
and sees smoke. He comes to help, shot dead too.
The remaining two police officers managed to get away and
call for backup.
Speaker 5 (02:05):
Yeah, well, these two of them, I think I've been
shot at cut.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
And over the next six hours a siege ensued. They
refused to negotiate or surrender, and eventually all three trains
were shot and filled by the.
Speaker 3 (02:19):
Police had to drive away a bit.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
This siege, where six people, including two police officers, lost
their lives, has been labeled Australia's first fundamentalist Christian terrorist attack.
The train family believed the end of days had come
from Schwartz Media. I'm Ruby Jones. This is seven AM Today.
(02:48):
Journalist and author of the Believer, Sarah Krasmastin on what
the trains believed and what the inquest into the killings
can tell us about extremism in Australia. It's Monday, August five, Sarah.
(03:18):
The very first question I think that everyone had after
this attack was why why had these three people shot
and killed police and their neighbor. And it became clear
very quickly that they had held very strong religious and
conspiratorial beliefs. So tell me about what was reported about
that initially.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
So understandably there was a huge volume of coverage.
Speaker 4 (03:45):
This lonely dirt road was the only way in of Nathaniel,
Gareth and Stacy trained sovereign status. They called it remote,
isolated and heavily fortified so they could protect it with
deadly murderous force.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
Much of that report emphasized the bizarre quality of where
the trains lived in Wimbilla, and it's.
Speaker 3 (04:06):
An area known as the Blocks.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
So we heard about how this place where they lived
was quote harsh and isolated and the perfect place for
this devastating crime.
Speaker 3 (04:18):
There were keepout signs on the gates.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
They lived on isolated bush blocks with no electricity or
running water or sewerage, and that this was kind of
a mecha for people with alternative lifestyles. Again, very distancing,
putting all of this fear and kind of this freaky
coating on the crime that could only happen in this
(04:41):
one exceptional place.
Speaker 5 (04:43):
The area where the murders took place is known by
Wyambilla locals as the Blocks, a bit of a mecha
for people seeking alternative lifestyles. It's littered with keepout signs,
harsh isolated, the perfect scene for the most devastating crime.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
That dovetailed with what we were learning in the reporting
that was uncovering rapidly the online activity of the Trains.
Speaker 5 (05:09):
One of the offenders, Gareth Train, was heavily involved in
the online conspiracy community.
Speaker 3 (05:16):
Is that an avenue that you'll be investigating, Yes, definitely, definitely. So.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
We heard that Gareth had had an increasing obsession with
conspiracy theories and that they had also been voiced to
a certain extent by Nathaniel and Stacy. During the siege
and following the murders, Gareth and Stacy posted their online
video under their middle names Daniel and Jane, and Gareth
(05:41):
said that they came to kill us and we killed
them and referred to police as demons and devils. We
know that Gareth had espoused very strong anti government, anti police,
anti vaccine views. Gareth was described as a doomsday prepper
that he was getting ready to live out the apt
acalypse on his property. He supported the Sovereign Citizen movement,
(06:05):
and he made a number of claims.
Speaker 3 (06:07):
About everything from the.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
Need to build an arc to the fact that Princess
Diana had been killed in a blood sacrifice and that
Port Arthur.
Speaker 3 (06:17):
Was a false flag operation.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
COVID, however, seems to have triggered for all three of
them an increasing fixation on various extremist beliefs and conspiracy theories. Initially,
Queensland Police did not label these killings as domestic terrorism,
but after looking a bit more into the train's preoccupation
(06:41):
with fundamentalist Christian premillennialism, they did change that assessment and
they labeled this as Australia's first religiously motivated terrorist attack
and also his first fundamentalist Christian attack.
Speaker 1 (06:55):
Yeah, it's interesting as you say this attack, it's been
described as Australia's first Christian fundamentalist terror attack, and I
wonder when you think about that, to what extent do
you see Gareth and Nathaniel and Stacy as Christian and
to what extent with a conspiracy theorists, how do you
unpick those two parts of their motivations and their psyche.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
That's the key question, and to a large extent, the
work of the inquest over the next five weeks, and
I think it's also to sub extent unanswerable.
Speaker 3 (07:32):
It's useful to explain a.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
Bit about the brother's childhood and their background. They were
raised in a conservative Christian family. Their father, Ronald Train,
had a spiritual rebirth and founded his own fundamentalist evangelical church,
where he was the pastor.
Speaker 3 (07:51):
For nearly thirty years.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
When the brothers were in their twenties, both Nathaniel and
Gareth stopped any contact with the parents. This has been
explained in terms of the way in which allegations that
the brothers made about childhood's sexual abuse were received by
the family. Stacy also became increasingly estranged.
Speaker 3 (08:12):
From her family.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
Eventually her marriage to Nathaniel ended and she married Gareth.
This was, especially in the early reporting, described as a
bizarre love triangle or a love tryst. It evoked a
huge amount of interest in the general public, so the
evidence that led to this being labeled as religiously motivated
(08:34):
violent extremism was the premillennialist nature of a lot of
the beliefs that Gareth had expressed online and that had
been found in Stacy's diary. I hadn't heard of it
before I researched the story. But premillennialism is based on
a literal interpretation of certain verses of the Book of
(08:56):
Revelation that describe a period of apocalypse that will be
followed by the second coming of Christ. So the Trains
understood COVID as a sign of those end times, and
they also understood premillennialism as requiring and even sanctioning violence
against certain devils and demons in order to bring about
(09:18):
this kind of transformational period and eventually perfect utopia. So
because of the nature of those beliefs, which again I
should say are not common to Christianity is typically practiced,
their offending was labeled as religiously and not ideologically motivated.
But now that the inquest is underway, we might get
(09:39):
a little bit more understanding of what was ideological, what
was religious, and what was pathological.
Speaker 3 (09:50):
After the break.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
Was this attack caused by a shared delusion Sarah. The
coronial inquest into the Wimbilla killings. It's been set up
to understand the fundamentals of the police response and what
(10:14):
happened in that six hour siege, but tell me a
bit more about its scope and what else we might
actually learn by the end of this So to.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
The extent that it's possible, the inquest is going to
be looking at everything that coalesced on that day as
it hears from about sixty different witnesses in her overview,
which kind of set out the roadmap for how the
inquest is going to run over the next few weeks.
Counsel assisting the court, Ruth O Gorman Casey, provided fresh
(10:45):
details about you know, the trend's beliefs and introduced in
particular future witness doctor Andrew aboud who's a clinical forensic psychologist.
And she explained that doctor Aboude will testify and that
be on the twelfth of August, that the trio we're
experiencing delusions and other symptoms consistent with shared psychotic disorder
(11:10):
follia twat so three people sharing the same delusion, and
that's characterized typically by a close relationship where one person's.
Speaker 3 (11:20):
Delusion or delusions are transmitted to.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
The others and kind of set off a similar psychotic
state of mind. So, according to doctor Aboud, Gareth's behavior
was connected to a genuine psychiatric condition, and we'll hear
more about that.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
Okay, So in your reporting, what views have you come
to about the dynamic between Nathaniel and his brother, Gareth
and his wife Stacey. Does the idea that they were
all sharing a delusion? Does that tally with what you
understand of them.
Speaker 3 (11:56):
We'll have to wait and see what the psychiatric evidence is.
My first impression, knowing.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
What I do know now about the physical domestic violence
and the coerce of control that Gareth had exercised over
Stacy during the course of their marriage, complicates the picture
of her participation and perhaps would extend to I guess
the legitimacy of the claim that she was operating under
(12:24):
psychosis rather than out of compliance or fear. We might
not get a clear answer to that, but I think
it's important in any assessment of her mental state to
put it in the context of the marriage that she
had and what's known about the coerce of control in
that situation.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
And just finally, Sarah, we know that conspiratorial thinking spiked
during COVID and that was actually a trigger for the trains.
So knowing that they are very much not alone in
this type of thinking, how should we judge the risk
of an attack like this happening again and should we
be looking at it less as a one off event
(13:05):
in rural Queensland and more of an ongoing threat.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
Well, I'm hopeful that over the next five weeks that's
something that the Inquest is going to consider, because we
are so lucky to have a huge amount of research
in this field addressing exactly that question. The nature of
the problem is that a lot of that radicalization to
violence occurs online in isolation. It happens rapidly and is
(13:32):
happening to increasingly younger people, and so it's in terms
of detection, it's very hard to find what's happening before
it explodes. But because the problem is multifaceted, so are
the solutions. Again and again, the solutions seem to cluster
around increasing social cohesion.
Speaker 3 (13:52):
At every level of society.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
So it would require all of government, bipartisan support that
we would have a reduction in this of exclusivist, populist
politicking that paints people our marginalized groups as other or outsiders,
and inclusion kind of at every level, from not just
those kind of ways in which national political debates are framed,
(14:14):
but in the way our local.
Speaker 3 (14:16):
Neighborhoods are run.
Speaker 2 (14:17):
The effect of that would be to make people a
bit more resilient to the ways in which these radicalizing,
extremely dangerous forums are meeting needs in vulnerable people for
self worth and dignity and connection and control over their lives.
(14:39):
And I think that might be one of the scariest
things about this event, and not necessarily something that an
inquest can answer, because it indicates that the content of
the extreme belief is less important than the feeling it generates. Here,
the beliefless premillennialism, but it could have just as easily
(15:00):
been something else here. The offending happened in the Western Downs,
it could have happened in any Australian city or neighborhood.
Here three people died, and while that's a tragedy, it
could have very easily been many many more. So there's
value in not just stigmatizing and distancing this as an
exceptional event that happened out there about some freaky belief system,
(15:24):
but looking more broadly at our vulnerability and brittleness as
a society, because this can.
Speaker 3 (15:32):
Affect any of us at any time.
Speaker 1 (15:37):
Sarah, thank you so much for your time.
Speaker 3 (15:40):
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
Also in the news today, Northern Territory Police Commissioner Michael
Murphy has apologized to First Nations Territory for past harms
and injustices caused by members of the Northern Territory Police.
In a speech at the Gama Festival in northeast Arnham Land,
Commissioner Murphy acknowledged that police have abused their powers and
said he would make every effort to eradicate racism in
(16:15):
the police force. His apology comes after it was revealed
that a unit of anti police had given out racist
awards and shared racist text messages among officers and Karmala
Harris has accused Donald Trump of trying to back out
of a presidential debate. The US broadcaster ABC News was
set to host the debate, but Donald Trump has instead
proposed the debate happen on rival network Fox News. Ads
(16:39):
released by the Democratic National Committee taunt mister Trump, claiming
the convicted felon is afraid to debate. Miss Harris, I'm
Ruby Jones. This is seven AM. Thanks for listening.
That yet Kelly Rachel announce her.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
She's on us first year.
Speaker 3 (00:08):
So the four officers arrive at the property.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
They are Constables Rachel Mcrowe twenty nine, Matthew Arnold twenty six,
Keeley Broth twenty eight, and Randall Kerr twenty eight, very
young junior police officers.
Speaker 3 (00:24):
They find that the gate is locked.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
They jump the fence and they start walking up the
fairly long driveway towards the house.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
The property these four officers are walking to is owned
by Gareth Train and his wife Stacy. The police are
responding to a routine welfare check for Gareth's brother Nathaniel.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
They didn't see the two brothers, Gareth and Nathaniel lying
on the ground in full camo, aiming rifles at them,
and so what followed has been described as both an
ambush and an execution. As Arnold was stepping over the fence,
the brothers shot and killed him. They shot mcrow three times.
(01:08):
Kirk managed to run behind a tree and from there
get back to the police cars, which were under heavy fire.
He was shot in the hip and then he managed
to get away and drive for help.
Speaker 4 (01:22):
I'm in the car.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
Gareth took Arnold's handgun off him, and as she planned
for her life, he killed the wounded mcrow, who was
on the ground.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
With two officers down, The trains continued their ambush.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Roth was hiding in the long grass while all this
was happening, and then the brothers set fire to the
remaining police car and also that long grass in which
he was hiding.
Speaker 3 (01:50):
They were trying to drive her out into the open.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
At this point a neighbor he's the noise of gunfire
and sees smoke. He comes to help, shot dead too.
The remaining two police officers managed to get away and
call for backup.
Speaker 5 (02:05):
Yeah, well, these two of them, I think I've been
shot at cut.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
And over the next six hours a siege ensued. They
refused to negotiate or surrender, and eventually all three trains
were shot and filled by the.
Speaker 3 (02:19):
Police had to drive away a bit.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
This siege, where six people, including two police officers, lost
their lives, has been labeled Australia's first fundamentalist Christian terrorist attack.
The train family believed the end of days had come
from Schwartz Media. I'm Ruby Jones. This is seven AM Today.
(02:48):
Journalist and author of the Believer, Sarah Krasmastin on what
the trains believed and what the inquest into the killings
can tell us about extremism in Australia. It's Monday, August five, Sarah.
(03:18):
The very first question I think that everyone had after
this attack was why why had these three people shot
and killed police and their neighbor. And it became clear
very quickly that they had held very strong religious and
conspiratorial beliefs. So tell me about what was reported about
that initially.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
So understandably there was a huge volume of coverage.
Speaker 4 (03:45):
This lonely dirt road was the only way in of Nathaniel,
Gareth and Stacy trained sovereign status. They called it remote,
isolated and heavily fortified so they could protect it with
deadly murderous force.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
Much of that report emphasized the bizarre quality of where
the trains lived in Wimbilla, and it's.
Speaker 3 (04:06):
An area known as the Blocks.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
So we heard about how this place where they lived
was quote harsh and isolated and the perfect place for
this devastating crime.
Speaker 3 (04:18):
There were keepout signs on the gates.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
They lived on isolated bush blocks with no electricity or
running water or sewerage, and that this was kind of
a mecha for people with alternative lifestyles. Again, very distancing,
putting all of this fear and kind of this freaky
coating on the crime that could only happen in this
(04:41):
one exceptional place.
Speaker 5 (04:43):
The area where the murders took place is known by
Wyambilla locals as the Blocks, a bit of a mecha
for people seeking alternative lifestyles. It's littered with keepout signs,
harsh isolated, the perfect scene for the most devastating crime.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
That dovetailed with what we were learning in the reporting
that was uncovering rapidly the online activity of the Trains.
Speaker 5 (05:09):
One of the offenders, Gareth Train, was heavily involved in
the online conspiracy community.
Speaker 3 (05:16):
Is that an avenue that you'll be investigating, Yes, definitely, definitely. So.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
We heard that Gareth had had an increasing obsession with
conspiracy theories and that they had also been voiced to
a certain extent by Nathaniel and Stacy. During the siege
and following the murders, Gareth and Stacy posted their online
video under their middle names Daniel and Jane, and Gareth
(05:41):
said that they came to kill us and we killed
them and referred to police as demons and devils. We
know that Gareth had espoused very strong anti government, anti police,
anti vaccine views. Gareth was described as a doomsday prepper
that he was getting ready to live out the apt
acalypse on his property. He supported the Sovereign Citizen movement,
(06:05):
and he made a number of claims.
Speaker 3 (06:07):
About everything from the.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
Need to build an arc to the fact that Princess
Diana had been killed in a blood sacrifice and that
Port Arthur.
Speaker 3 (06:17):
Was a false flag operation.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
COVID, however, seems to have triggered for all three of
them an increasing fixation on various extremist beliefs and conspiracy theories. Initially,
Queensland Police did not label these killings as domestic terrorism,
but after looking a bit more into the train's preoccupation
(06:41):
with fundamentalist Christian premillennialism, they did change that assessment and
they labeled this as Australia's first religiously motivated terrorist attack
and also his first fundamentalist Christian attack.
Speaker 1 (06:55):
Yeah, it's interesting as you say this attack, it's been
described as Australia's first Christian fundamentalist terror attack, and I
wonder when you think about that, to what extent do
you see Gareth and Nathaniel and Stacy as Christian and
to what extent with a conspiracy theorists, how do you
unpick those two parts of their motivations and their psyche.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
That's the key question, and to a large extent, the
work of the inquest over the next five weeks, and
I think it's also to sub extent unanswerable.
Speaker 3 (07:32):
It's useful to explain a.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
Bit about the brother's childhood and their background. They were
raised in a conservative Christian family. Their father, Ronald Train,
had a spiritual rebirth and founded his own fundamentalist evangelical church,
where he was the pastor.
Speaker 3 (07:51):
For nearly thirty years.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
When the brothers were in their twenties, both Nathaniel and
Gareth stopped any contact with the parents. This has been
explained in terms of the way in which allegations that
the brothers made about childhood's sexual abuse were received by
the family. Stacy also became increasingly estranged.
Speaker 3 (08:12):
From her family.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
Eventually her marriage to Nathaniel ended and she married Gareth.
This was, especially in the early reporting, described as a
bizarre love triangle or a love tryst. It evoked a
huge amount of interest in the general public, so the
evidence that led to this being labeled as religiously motivated
(08:34):
violent extremism was the premillennialist nature of a lot of
the beliefs that Gareth had expressed online and that had
been found in Stacy's diary. I hadn't heard of it
before I researched the story. But premillennialism is based on
a literal interpretation of certain verses of the Book of
(08:56):
Revelation that describe a period of apocalypse that will be
followed by the second coming of Christ. So the Trains
understood COVID as a sign of those end times, and
they also understood premillennialism as requiring and even sanctioning violence
against certain devils and demons in order to bring about
(09:18):
this kind of transformational period and eventually perfect utopia. So
because of the nature of those beliefs, which again I
should say are not common to Christianity is typically practiced,
their offending was labeled as religiously and not ideologically motivated.
But now that the inquest is underway, we might get
(09:39):
a little bit more understanding of what was ideological, what
was religious, and what was pathological.
Speaker 3 (09:50):
After the break.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
Was this attack caused by a shared delusion Sarah. The
coronial inquest into the Wimbilla killings. It's been set up
to understand the fundamentals of the police response and what
(10:14):
happened in that six hour siege, but tell me a
bit more about its scope and what else we might
actually learn by the end of this So to.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
The extent that it's possible, the inquest is going to
be looking at everything that coalesced on that day as
it hears from about sixty different witnesses in her overview,
which kind of set out the roadmap for how the
inquest is going to run over the next few weeks.
Counsel assisting the court, Ruth O Gorman Casey, provided fresh
(10:45):
details about you know, the trend's beliefs and introduced in
particular future witness doctor Andrew aboud who's a clinical forensic psychologist.
And she explained that doctor Aboude will testify and that
be on the twelfth of August, that the trio we're
experiencing delusions and other symptoms consistent with shared psychotic disorder
(11:10):
follia twat so three people sharing the same delusion, and
that's characterized typically by a close relationship where one person's.
Speaker 3 (11:20):
Delusion or delusions are transmitted to.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
The others and kind of set off a similar psychotic
state of mind. So, according to doctor Aboud, Gareth's behavior
was connected to a genuine psychiatric condition, and we'll hear
more about that.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
Okay, So in your reporting, what views have you come
to about the dynamic between Nathaniel and his brother, Gareth
and his wife Stacey. Does the idea that they were
all sharing a delusion? Does that tally with what you
understand of them.
Speaker 3 (11:56):
We'll have to wait and see what the psychiatric evidence is.
My first impression, knowing.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
What I do know now about the physical domestic violence
and the coerce of control that Gareth had exercised over
Stacy during the course of their marriage, complicates the picture
of her participation and perhaps would extend to I guess
the legitimacy of the claim that she was operating under
(12:24):
psychosis rather than out of compliance or fear. We might
not get a clear answer to that, but I think
it's important in any assessment of her mental state to
put it in the context of the marriage that she
had and what's known about the coerce of control in
that situation.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
And just finally, Sarah, we know that conspiratorial thinking spiked
during COVID and that was actually a trigger for the trains.
So knowing that they are very much not alone in
this type of thinking, how should we judge the risk
of an attack like this happening again and should we
be looking at it less as a one off event
(13:05):
in rural Queensland and more of an ongoing threat.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
Well, I'm hopeful that over the next five weeks that's
something that the Inquest is going to consider, because we
are so lucky to have a huge amount of research
in this field addressing exactly that question. The nature of
the problem is that a lot of that radicalization to
violence occurs online in isolation. It happens rapidly and is
(13:32):
happening to increasingly younger people, and so it's in terms
of detection, it's very hard to find what's happening before
it explodes. But because the problem is multifaceted, so are
the solutions. Again and again, the solutions seem to cluster
around increasing social cohesion.
Speaker 3 (13:52):
At every level of society.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
So it would require all of government, bipartisan support that
we would have a reduction in this of exclusivist, populist
politicking that paints people our marginalized groups as other or outsiders,
and inclusion kind of at every level, from not just
those kind of ways in which national political debates are framed,
(14:14):
but in the way our local.
Speaker 3 (14:16):
Neighborhoods are run.
Speaker 2 (14:17):
The effect of that would be to make people a
bit more resilient to the ways in which these radicalizing,
extremely dangerous forums are meeting needs in vulnerable people for
self worth and dignity and connection and control over their lives.
(14:39):
And I think that might be one of the scariest
things about this event, and not necessarily something that an
inquest can answer, because it indicates that the content of
the extreme belief is less important than the feeling it generates. Here,
the beliefless premillennialism, but it could have just as easily
(15:00):
been something else here. The offending happened in the Western Downs,
it could have happened in any Australian city or neighborhood.
Here three people died, and while that's a tragedy, it
could have very easily been many many more. So there's
value in not just stigmatizing and distancing this as an
exceptional event that happened out there about some freaky belief system,
(15:24):
but looking more broadly at our vulnerability and brittleness as
a society, because this can.
Speaker 3 (15:32):
Affect any of us at any time.
Speaker 1 (15:37):
Sarah, thank you so much for your time.
Speaker 3 (15:40):
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
Also in the news today, Northern Territory Police Commissioner Michael
Murphy has apologized to First Nations Territory for past harms
and injustices caused by members of the Northern Territory Police.
In a speech at the Gama Festival in northeast Arnham Land,
Commissioner Murphy acknowledged that police have abused their powers and
said he would make every effort to eradicate racism in
(16:15):
the police force. His apology comes after it was revealed
that a unit of anti police had given out racist
awards and shared racist text messages among officers and Karmala
Harris has accused Donald Trump of trying to back out
of a presidential debate. The US broadcaster ABC News was
set to host the debate, but Donald Trump has instead
proposed the debate happen on rival network Fox News. Ads
(16:39):
released by the Democratic National Committee taunt mister Trump, claiming
the convicted felon is afraid to debate. Miss Harris, I'm
Ruby Jones. This is seven AM. Thanks for listening.
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