October 4, 2025 • 29 mins
This week, Rick Morton won the Prime Minister’s Literary Awards for his book Mean Streak. It’s a huge achievement and we are thrilled for him.
This book was the culmination of years of reporting on Robodebt – a government scheme that destroyed lives.
At 7am, we were lucky enough to work with Rick on a series, which we published in 2023, about how Robodebt was allowed to happen.
And there’s one episode from that series that we still think about all the time – about a woman who saw what was happening and called it out.
We hope you read Rick’s important book Mean Streak – and we hope you enjoy this episode from our series Inside Robodebt.
If you enjoy 7am, the best way you can support us is by making a contribution at 7ampodcast.com.au/support.
Socials: Stay in touch with us on Instagram
Guest: Rick Morton, author of Mean Streak and winner of the non-fiction prize at the Prime Minister’s Literary Awards
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
This week, Rick Morton won the Prime Minister's Literary Awards
for his book Mainstreak. It's a huge achievement and we're
thrilled for him. This book was the combination of years
of reporting on Robodet, a government scheme that destroyed lives
at seven Am. We were lucky enough to work with
the Rick on a series which we published in twenty
(00:21):
twenty three about how Robodet was allowed to happen. And
there's one episode from that series that we still think
about all the time about a woman who saw what
was happening and called it out. We hope you read
Rix's important book, Mainstreak, and we hope you enjoy this
episode from our series Inside Robodet.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
The Robodet Raw Commission has exposed an insidious scheme that
turned the machinery of an entire government against its own people.
The plan was to raise billions of dollars from welfare
recipients by convincing in them they had fake debts. Those
who imagined, designed and delivered it with their personal ambition
(01:07):
about the wellbeing of the people that were meant to serve.
But there were some on the front line who from
the very beginning knew this government shakedown was wrong. One
of those people was Colleen Taylor, who spoke up then
and came forward at the Royal Commission. She was the
one who told the truth and helped crack one of
the greatest scandals in Australian government history.
Speaker 3 (01:30):
Wide open.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Today we speak to the sending worker turned whistleblower, Colin Taylor,
about what really happened when Robodette was first rolled out
and just as the heads up, this episode does contain
some pretty serious language around suicide.
Speaker 4 (01:51):
Hello, come in, very strange moment for me. Have you
seen you on the Royal Commission? Welcome? Have a seat.
Speaker 5 (02:08):
That's all right now, would you like something to coffee?
Speaker 2 (02:10):
If I've just walked into Colin's house and it is small,
it's really small. She lives here on her own, and
she's wearing this little polka dot top and has already
offered me coffee I think about three times. And she'll
go on to offer all of our guests coffee and
tea and biscuits, probably between twelve and twenty times for
for the end of this recording.
Speaker 4 (02:31):
Now who we are I'm teaching myself as I get older.
That would be really much to have the food that
come up. Just help yourself.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
She reminds me a little bit of my mother. I
must say. She's got statues and automents all around the
house and behind her as we start talking, there's these
statues of three meerkats who'll pop their heads up above
the dan. I guess, and are on the lookout, And
I don't know, it seems perfect. That's Colin Taylor to me.
She is this small force of nature, methodical, wanting to
(03:04):
do the right thing, and always on guard.
Speaker 5 (03:09):
So I'm Colleen Taylor, and I guess. Really I was
a career public servant because although I did work in
private industry, really from age eighteen onwards, I joined the
public service in nineteen eighty four and worked in.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
So Colleen has spent almost her entire career in the
Australian public service. She joined in nineteen eighty four, first
with the Commonwealth Employment Service and then for Settling Proper,
where she moved into roles in compliance and quality review.
She became essentially a fact checker, always on the lookout
for what was real and true, checking her colleagues and
making sure that the welfare system was running as it should.
Speaker 5 (03:51):
You know, it was very much the culture then of
we called it getting it right, and so getting it
right related to the customer because you have to be correct,
but you had to be consistent as well. So we
also knew that so many people were trying desperately shoe
the right thing, but often it was the Center Link
(04:11):
procedures that prevented them from doing the right thing. And
that's where it was so important that when we were
investigating cases and looking at it, we're talking to people
about why this happened and looking at what letters they
were sent and what they were told. And you know,
we used to waive debts, so we basically wrote debts
off because we could see quite clearly that this person
(04:32):
had not intentionally tried to defraud the government.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
See, Colleen was working in a system that used to
help people, that gave them the benefit of the doubt.
But that changed in twenty fifteen when something very strange
started to happen at Centerlink.
Speaker 5 (04:50):
It was a departmental head and he came and it
was an all staff information session. He was going around
to all the various teams and he came to us
Risbon and he was basically.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
Frontline workers get a visit from one of the big
managers and they're told, hey, we're going to do things
a little differently around here. That different thing was what
we now know.
Speaker 5 (05:12):
As robodet and he said, what's going to happen is
we're going to be able to raise debts from using
the PAYG data from the Tax Office and just averaging
it out over that PAYG period. And we all went, what,
how's that going to work?
Speaker 2 (05:31):
At the very least in twenty fifteen, frontline staff who
were briefed on this change knew it was morally and
mathematically wrong.
Speaker 5 (05:38):
We knew that this was something that we would avoid,
and here he was saying, no, we're going to go
full steam ahead and we're going to be able to
average across the PAYG period, when everything we did was
to avoid that as much as possible.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
What management came and told Colleen and her colleagues was
this compliance officers were to no longer look the files
of people on welfare that they already had access to
in their system. Further, they told them, don't go out
and find out information. Some had the power to go
to employers and get paylips, to go to banks and
get statements, and none of that happened. That was the change. Instead,
(06:16):
all they were going to do was take an annual
figure already declared to the Australian Taxation Office and average
it out into equal discrete amounts over twenty six fortnights
in the year. They were going to use that to
tell a customer, you've got a debt, even if they
knew that they didn't.
Speaker 5 (06:35):
Even if you think, well, forget about you know, you
obviously have no concern about the customer, or maybe talk
about yourself, then wouldn't you find it easier to check
the record Thirty seconds sometimes is enough, then send the
debt notice out, have the customer, then have to try
and contact, then have asked for a review, then have
(06:58):
to go and review the dead and then there's a
whole process that has to be gone through, which could
have been stopped in thirty seconds from going out. But
there was this gung ho. It became like it's almost
like an accounting machine that you know, was devoid of
all humanity.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
They could never have known then that the powerful people
who cooked up the idea had legal advice that should
have unequivocally killed the idea before it ever began. Instead,
they found themselves in a maddening battle for the truth
as people started dying. Perhaps more than anyone in the
then Department of Human Services, it was Colleen Taylor who
fought that fight. It almost ruined her.
Speaker 6 (07:47):
And welcome back to Richard in our camera scidio. Is
Scott Morrison, the man who's stopped the boats and is
now going to stop Who knows what we'll find out?
Can I Scott?
Speaker 2 (07:55):
How are you good? Graham?
Speaker 6 (07:58):
Who are you going to crack down on because of Blakeloke?
He's not going to sit there and do nothing.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
Now?
Speaker 6 (08:01):
Has that mean that anyone on the doll has got
to look.
Speaker 7 (08:04):
Out, well, anyone who's who's trying to rip it Offter
is anyone who's trying to rip off the welfare system
because every welfare benefit paid every benefit.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
So even deep within the Department of Human Services, Colleen
realized that this change was part of something much bigger.
In fact, hating on people on welfare had become almost
a national sport, and she realized that this was a
part of that.
Speaker 5 (08:28):
And everyone brought into this Okay, we've got ninety five
percent of people or more are ripping us off, so
let's get stuck into them, and I'm really ashamed of
the whole you know, from politicians to shock jocks, media, newspapers,
the public public writing in. You know, everyone brought into this.
(08:51):
You know, oh, let's get stuck into them. They're all
ripping us off, you know, and how much must that
have made people feel? But it was also from us
as well, because you know, you have felt a shame
to be a public servant. That we knew this was wrong,
but oh here we were. We were just going a
lot to do about it, you know, and it's like,
(09:11):
where was our moral fiber?
Speaker 2 (09:13):
So this approach of averaging income, it was raw greed roverdebt.
Could never have made the billions of dollars forecast for
the government without the assumption that every last one of
those so called discrepancies was going to result in a debt.
And to do that, everything had to be averaged. And
(09:34):
so this became a policy and it was rolled out
to staff like Colleen.
Speaker 5 (09:40):
It never occurred to us that this was illegal. Why
would we we think, Okay, this is this is something
that's been formulated and it's come down and this is
what you've got to work with. So we thought, okay,
well this is what we've got to deal with. Let's
make it as fair as we possibly can.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
But here's the thing. Colleen had evidence that the system
wasn't being wrought it. She was being asked to hunt
down people she knew from experience. We're not trying to
do the wrong thing. In other words, she was being
asked to be complicit.
Speaker 5 (10:10):
That was when I said, you're asking us to commit
a fraudulent act. And we have a fraud plan which
is supposed to be about identifying fraud within the employees,
and I said this should stand for our customers as well.
You are asking us to commit a fraudulent act by
allowing a debt to go through by saying, Okay, I
(10:31):
know there's something on the customer record that PU ows
there's no debt, but sorry, that was provided two years
ago and we can't use that.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
Here's what I find so compelling about Colleen Taylor as
a person. She's methodical, and she applies this rigor to
her own morality. You know, here watching this new system
unfold against a backdrop of demonization, she is so disturbed
by what she sees that, you know, the ordinary procedures
are not enough. She told her direct manager. Nothing happened.
(11:01):
She told the assistant director and was rebuked. And what's
a good, hard working employee to do. She reminds me
so much of these Metcats in this moment, because the
meercats aren't on the lookout for danger just for themselves.
They're doing it for the group, and Colleen is doing
all of this for other people. And so she goes
right to the top, and in doing so, Colin Taylor
transforms her own role in Robodette from disgusted onlooker to
(11:22):
administrative action hero. She wrote to the most senior person
in her entire department, secretary Catherine Campbell.
Speaker 5 (11:30):
And my feeling was that she's obviously being misled, because
I understood that at a secretary level, you wouldn't understand
the minutia of everything. And I thought, wow, who better
to tell her than me, who's been in the old
way and the new way, who was across at all,
who had the customer experience you have you. So I
(11:51):
started typing up my email and I would do this
at home and I'd be formulating and what have you.
And I certainly ran it past my team leader to
be sat in there office and he said to me, oh, Colleen,
you really got to cut it down. They're just not
going to read that much. I think that was when
I burst into tears for one hundred and fiftieth time
and said, no, I'm not changing a thing. And so anyway,
(12:12):
then I sent it off.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
And secretaries of departments have strict and unwavering obligations under
the law. Colleen Taylor thought Campbell was being misled. It
was in Campbell's best interest. She thought to read her
email very carefully and to treat it even more seriously.
Speaker 5 (12:32):
That morning, a phone call from Catherine Campbell saying we've
received this and we're onto it, and she was organizing.
She said, there'll be two of my staff we'll be
doing a phone hook up, which was being organized for
the next day. Very short conversation to say, Okay, I'm
passing it on to these people to look at. And
so I went out and said my goodness, you know,
(12:52):
and was like, wow, they're listening. Is all great, and
you know, So then we had the phone hook up
the next day and I base went through everything that
I'd gone through, and really I was pushing that, yes,
we're stuck with this averaging, because at that stage we
didn't realize that it was illegal. We thought were stuck
with it. I was impressing, Okay, if you're going to
(13:13):
do this averaging, this is all the bad results of it.
This is and then this is how the process is working,
and it's not working, and it's causing all sorts of
dreadful things. I mean, I was there, I think several hours.
Then in the end, I took the deep breath and
I just remember, as clear as day. Okay, so what
(13:35):
you're saying is the old process was very time consuming
and laborious, and this is going to be much quicker
and whatever. And I thought, I've just wasted two hours
of my life. And I remember going out to the
team leader and he went, I said, how to go?
And I said, I don't think she listened to a
word I said.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
The question, of course, is whether they intended to listen
at all. Neither Catherine Campbell nor any of her lieutenant's
dispatch to deal with the Erks and Colleen Taylor gave
any indication they knew the importance of what she was
desperately trying to tell them, Whether that was a studied
or a genuine ignorance. Colleen does not know what she
does know is that she understood exactly what the new
(14:16):
income averaging policy meant. She knew what Robodet would do.
Speaker 5 (14:21):
So you felt as if there was nothing to be
cheapd But the very awful thing was I said to
them when I came up back upstairs after doing those
reviews and it was quite clear these debts were going
out with duplications of employers. I came up and I
remember saying to them, you cannot do this to people.
(14:42):
People will commit suicide. You cannot do this to people.
And I remember one of the other team leaders said
to me, you're right, Colleen, but it's just gone too far.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
Just weeks later, Colleen Taylor read about the death of
Reese Corso in the Saturday Paper. He was a twenty
eight year old florist, musician and beloved son and brother.
Speaker 5 (15:10):
And then when sorry, when it came out in the
paper about Reyes, I remember that his beautiful face committing suicide.
I stormed into the manager and I said, look, it's
starting to happen, and it was just so awful.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
He was being hounded by private debt collectors on behalf
of Centerlink. The Royal Commission proved years later that his
debt belonged to the very first iteration of rubbodebt. He
was being hunted via statutory fiction. He killed himself for
a debt he did not owe.
Speaker 5 (15:55):
And anyway, so that was I left. I went on
to leave in I think May of twenty seventeen, and
took age retirement in July twenty seventeen.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
But what really After Colleen Taylor retired, she received a
letter from the department. Now, remember she's been working there
since nineteen eighty four, She's been promoted, she's diligent, she
trains other people. But the letter wasn't to thank her
for her service. It was to remind her that she
faced two years in prison as she ever spoke about
anything she learned throughout her career as a public servant.
(16:34):
There was no other correspondence. In short, it was a
so long and shut up, we'll be back after this.
(17:04):
Years passed for Colleen, sitting in retirement, scared that if
she ever spoke up about what she'd seen and heard,
she would be punished. Australia does not have a comfortable
relationship with whistleblowers. After all, she feared losing her own
pension or worse. But five years after leaving the department,
she saw an opportunity to tell part of her story.
(17:28):
The Royal Commission into Robodet was launched.
Speaker 8 (17:32):
The Royal Commission will examine the establishment of the scheme,
who was responsible for it, and why it was necessary,
how concerns were handled, how the scheme affected individuals, and
the financial cost to government, and measures to prevent this
ever happening again.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
So Colleen worked up the courage to make an anonymous submission.
Speaker 5 (17:55):
Well what happened was I knew that it was important
because of the detail, and I thought they're not going
to understand how this worked in practice.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
And soon after the Guardian Australia reporter Luke henriy Gerns
tracked her.
Speaker 5 (18:08):
Down and so I rang him and he said, your
name is already out there. It's your emails are part
of the exhibits and it's in there on their website.
And I went.
Speaker 2 (18:20):
Wholy, And she thought she was going to jail.
Speaker 5 (18:23):
The next thing Royal commissioners wanting to get in contact
with you. So we went through the whole song and
Dad's again. So we went in there and talked to
them and stupid me, I'm thinking, there's this lady there
who was excellent. They were all wonderful. She's typing away
furiously on a laptop and no, no, I can't. I'll
(18:43):
mention so you've got a bit of background, but I really,
you know anyway, so the next thing, well, if we'd
like you to appears No, no, no, no, no no,
I couldn't do that. And then well okay, and so
they did a few sample questions and I said, come,
I'm much better at writing things down. Could I just
write something down? And then it's like, well we will
do a statement. Oh okay, I'll do a statement. And
(19:04):
of course that's what I haven't realized. This person who's
been tapping away furiously is basically is the statement writing
my statement. But I mean we went through it. We
spent a whole day. It's always going through and changing
it so that you know, I was happy with the
statement and what have you. And then it was okay,
well then you're going to be as a witness, and
so oh no, And I really thought that I would
either freeze or I'd burst into tears.
Speaker 3 (19:26):
A commissioner. I call Colleen Taylor.
Speaker 9 (19:28):
Miss Taylor, before you sit down, can I ask would
you prefer to take an oath or an affirmation.
Speaker 5 (19:35):
So I was there sitting in the anti chamber or
what it was. I waited so long that I'd just
lost all my nerves what have you? And the other
thing I did is I took off my glasses so
I couldn't actually see people in the distance, and that helped.
And I said to mister Scott, I'm just going to
focus on you.
Speaker 9 (19:53):
You were formerly an employee of the Australian Public Service,
and would this be right? You started your employment in
the Australian Public Service on her about the year nineteen
eighty four.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
And this is a big deal for Colleen because she's
not like the senior public servants who are called to
give evidence that Senate estimates or other parliamentary inquiries, or
god forbid a robot at Royal Commission, where they're compelled
to give testimony. Colin is a normal person and what
makes her evidence so critical is that she never suffered
the curious lapses of memory that seemed to affect her superiors.
(20:30):
She remembered the details that other people just apparently didn't.
She remembered how the system used to work, all its
parts and procedures, and protocols and critically she knew what
had changed and could explain how those changes happened.
Speaker 3 (20:46):
And then these are your words.
Speaker 9 (20:47):
Please allow me, as a loyal employee of many years
standing who has only ever raised concerns in house, to
respond to you directly, as your statement tells me that
you are being misled, and I want to ensure my
words reach you. We cannot find a solution if the
problem is not correctly identified. It is possible we are
not even looking in the right direction for a solution.
(21:09):
And then the words in bold, there has been a
very dramatic change within the last eighteen months to the
way in which compliance successes income and calculates and recovers debt.
See that, yes, And was that your belief that there
had in fact been a dramatic change.
Speaker 2 (21:25):
Absolutely, and this wasn't an iteration in debt recovery. This
was a brand new money grab. Colleen remembered all of this,
and when the Royal Commission came knocking, she told them.
Speaker 5 (21:39):
I feel really blessed so that I had the opportunity
to be at the Royal Commission, because I think people
must have had days and days and days and weeks
of people going I don't remember, I don't recall. I
wasn't there. I didn't get that email or.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
What have you.
Speaker 5 (21:53):
And it must have been a breath of fresh air
someone to come along and say it was wrong and
be specific about why it was wrong and that they knew.
Speaker 3 (22:05):
When did you finish your employment?
Speaker 5 (22:08):
I retired age retired in July twenty seventeen.
Speaker 3 (22:12):
Can you tell us what the reason was for retiring.
Speaker 5 (22:15):
I I just was spent. I think I just it
was just the I guess, callous indifference that you just thought,
it's just what people do to each other, and it
was just so sad and it was and you just
thought nothing's going to change. And it seemed to that
(22:36):
it was for me hard to believe. I am a
shy personal I am. I just didn't want to be
front and center. I just thought, oh, this is I
hope I can just fade away, because I didn't want
it to be about me because so many other people
had suffered and what have you. And I know that
lots of friends and relatives were saying to me after
I appeared, oh, you know, you're trending on Twitter and
(22:58):
all this sort of stuff, and I'm going, oh, okay,
and people were saying just all these wonderful things, and
I thought it could really turn your head. And then
there was an email from Jenny Miller saying, I wish
my son had been able to speak to Colleen Taylor, sorry,
it would still be with me. And I thought that
(23:19):
puts everything into perspective. That's what I find intolerable about
this whole thing is they lied about Oh, people commit
suicide for all sorts of reasons and really had nothing
to do with Robert. There was definitely a.
Speaker 1 (23:32):
Connection for Colleen.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
Getting a letter from the mother of the young man
she had read about in the paper meant the world
and she wasn't being imprecise when she was talking about
Singe bureaucrat, saying you couldn't link Roberdette to people who
killed themselves and that it would be unfair to do
so because we just don't know what goes on inside
people's lives. But what Colleen knows is that there are
cases like Reese's, like another case mentioned in the same
(23:57):
breath at the Royal Commission of a woman who killed
herself after receiving debt reminder notices. In May twenty seventeen,
there are cases that are inexplicably linked to ROPODEBT.
Speaker 5 (24:10):
And to then go on about you know, oh, well
you don't know what's happening in people's lives, you know, Well, yes,
you do know that people are vulnerable, people are on benefits,
so generally there's lots of things happening in their life.
These are not the people to treat as criminals. These
are not the people to send out debt collectors to.
These are not the people to make it as difficult
(24:30):
as possible for them to navigate this system.
Speaker 4 (24:33):
You know.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
And if you don't know that, you shouldn't be in
charge of them.
Speaker 3 (24:36):
No, you shouldn't be making policies.
Speaker 5 (24:37):
And that's what I hope from the Commission, that they
identify the people who should never again be in a
managerial position where they're looking after things that involve the public.
You know, because there was just it was like a
that all had a botomies. There was the empathy gene
had just gone completely.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
You know.
Speaker 5 (24:56):
Whether that was a prerequisite to get into management, I
don't know, but it's just, you know, it just I
don't know, it hurts.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
It's easy now to look back and ask these types
of questions, why wasn't it stopped? Why didn't anyone seem
to care? And because of this Royal commission we know
at least some of the answers.
Speaker 5 (25:16):
It pained me that the only thing that stopped it
in the end was that it was illegal. And you think,
and thank god those people doggedly pursued it all those years,
But why wasn't it stopped? Because it was unjust, it
was unfair, it was cruel, all these things, none of
(25:40):
it seemed to make any difference. Just who was looking
at that?
Speaker 2 (25:44):
And while Colleen continues to struggle with whether she did enough,
whether she could have sent emails to more people or
yelled more loudly, we know Robodet continued because there were
many more people who didn't even try. They saw and
they chose silence.
Speaker 5 (26:06):
The big thing was that disappoints me is they didn't
deserve my loyalty. Still upsets me to this day. But
there was that overwhelming thing of there's nothing you can do.
You can just be a part of this horrible thing,
of what you're doing to people, knowing that, yes, you
(26:28):
would think stay there, fight, you know, and I still
do this day think what could I have done differently?
Speaker 2 (26:45):
Well, you leave there with your head held much higher
than almost everyone else.
Speaker 5 (26:50):
Yes, I am. I'm happy for what I did, and
I'm so glad that it's on the historical record and
that it's come up in the Royal Commission. And I
stand every single word I said. And I'm very, very
grateful to yourself, Luke and the Commission giving me this opportunity.
But please let me go back into the woodwork.
Speaker 2 (27:13):
I think you can go back in the woodwork and
hopefully a generation of public servants will be asking themselves,
what would Colleen Taylor do? Yes, exactly, because that would
be the right frame of mine.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
That's right.
Speaker 5 (27:23):
Thank you, thank you, thank you very much.
Speaker 2 (27:35):
The Royal Commission found that Katherine Campbell had ignored warnings
about Robertett repeatedly. You'll remember that's the Catherine Campbell, the
one who Colleen explicitly emailed about her concerns. She was
involved intimately in the preparation of the new policy proposal,
which removed all references to income averaging and had the
effect of misleading cabinet. She was also found to have
(28:00):
personally ordered her own officials to call off the request
for legal advice from the Australian Government solicitor because to
do so would likely prove embarrassing to her. Captain Campbell
is currently on leave from her nine hundred thousand dollars
a year job as a supervisor for the ucust Nuclear
(28:20):
Submarine Project and as Colleen Taylor.
Speaker 7 (28:24):
Colleen Taylor and she'll probably kill me for it, saying
her evidence was exemplary and Commissioner Holmes, as I said,
did focus in that she restored faith. So I'd love
to see Colleen Taylor, one of the frontline people in
the public service, get a PSM. That's just a personal opinion.
Speaker 2 (28:41):
Bill Shorten said Colleen should receive a Public Service Medal
for being one of the few public servants to step
forward and try and expose what happened.
Speaker 7 (28:50):
Because some of the real heroes here weren't the people
who should have been. The real leadership came from the
rank and file of the organization who spoke up, even
at risk of their own job security and promotion.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
Colleen'll be making a cup of tea and a cup
of coffee, and I think there's a certain calm that
comes with the knowledge that you did the right thing.
This week, Rick Morton won the Prime Minister's Literary Awards
for his book Mainstreak. It's a huge achievement and we're
thrilled for him. This book was the combination of years
of reporting on Robodet, a government scheme that destroyed lives
at seven Am. We were lucky enough to work with
the Rick on a series which we published in twenty
(00:21):
twenty three about how Robodet was allowed to happen. And
there's one episode from that series that we still think
about all the time about a woman who saw what
was happening and called it out. We hope you read
Rix's important book, Mainstreak, and we hope you enjoy this
episode from our series Inside Robodet.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
The Robodet Raw Commission has exposed an insidious scheme that
turned the machinery of an entire government against its own people.
The plan was to raise billions of dollars from welfare
recipients by convincing in them they had fake debts. Those
who imagined, designed and delivered it with their personal ambition
(01:07):
about the wellbeing of the people that were meant to serve.
But there were some on the front line who from
the very beginning knew this government shakedown was wrong. One
of those people was Colleen Taylor, who spoke up then
and came forward at the Royal Commission. She was the
one who told the truth and helped crack one of
the greatest scandals in Australian government history.
Speaker 3 (01:30):
Wide open.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Today we speak to the sending worker turned whistleblower, Colin Taylor,
about what really happened when Robodette was first rolled out
and just as the heads up, this episode does contain
some pretty serious language around suicide.
Speaker 4 (01:51):
Hello, come in, very strange moment for me. Have you
seen you on the Royal Commission? Welcome? Have a seat.
Speaker 5 (02:08):
That's all right now, would you like something to coffee?
Speaker 2 (02:10):
If I've just walked into Colin's house and it is small,
it's really small. She lives here on her own, and
she's wearing this little polka dot top and has already
offered me coffee I think about three times. And she'll
go on to offer all of our guests coffee and
tea and biscuits, probably between twelve and twenty times for
for the end of this recording.
Speaker 4 (02:31):
Now who we are I'm teaching myself as I get older.
That would be really much to have the food that
come up. Just help yourself.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
She reminds me a little bit of my mother. I
must say. She's got statues and automents all around the
house and behind her as we start talking, there's these
statues of three meerkats who'll pop their heads up above
the dan. I guess, and are on the lookout, And
I don't know, it seems perfect. That's Colin Taylor to me.
She is this small force of nature, methodical, wanting to
(03:04):
do the right thing, and always on guard.
Speaker 5 (03:09):
So I'm Colleen Taylor, and I guess. Really I was
a career public servant because although I did work in
private industry, really from age eighteen onwards, I joined the
public service in nineteen eighty four and worked in.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
So Colleen has spent almost her entire career in the
Australian public service. She joined in nineteen eighty four, first
with the Commonwealth Employment Service and then for Settling Proper,
where she moved into roles in compliance and quality review.
She became essentially a fact checker, always on the lookout
for what was real and true, checking her colleagues and
making sure that the welfare system was running as it should.
Speaker 5 (03:51):
You know, it was very much the culture then of
we called it getting it right, and so getting it
right related to the customer because you have to be correct,
but you had to be consistent as well. So we
also knew that so many people were trying desperately shoe
the right thing, but often it was the Center Link
(04:11):
procedures that prevented them from doing the right thing. And
that's where it was so important that when we were
investigating cases and looking at it, we're talking to people
about why this happened and looking at what letters they
were sent and what they were told. And you know,
we used to waive debts, so we basically wrote debts
off because we could see quite clearly that this person
(04:32):
had not intentionally tried to defraud the government.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
See, Colleen was working in a system that used to
help people, that gave them the benefit of the doubt.
But that changed in twenty fifteen when something very strange
started to happen at Centerlink.
Speaker 5 (04:50):
It was a departmental head and he came and it
was an all staff information session. He was going around
to all the various teams and he came to us
Risbon and he was basically.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
Frontline workers get a visit from one of the big
managers and they're told, hey, we're going to do things
a little differently around here. That different thing was what
we now know.
Speaker 5 (05:12):
As robodet and he said, what's going to happen is
we're going to be able to raise debts from using
the PAYG data from the Tax Office and just averaging
it out over that PAYG period. And we all went, what,
how's that going to work?
Speaker 2 (05:31):
At the very least in twenty fifteen, frontline staff who
were briefed on this change knew it was morally and
mathematically wrong.
Speaker 5 (05:38):
We knew that this was something that we would avoid,
and here he was saying, no, we're going to go
full steam ahead and we're going to be able to
average across the PAYG period, when everything we did was
to avoid that as much as possible.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
What management came and told Colleen and her colleagues was
this compliance officers were to no longer look the files
of people on welfare that they already had access to
in their system. Further, they told them, don't go out
and find out information. Some had the power to go
to employers and get paylips, to go to banks and
get statements, and none of that happened. That was the change. Instead,
(06:16):
all they were going to do was take an annual
figure already declared to the Australian Taxation Office and average
it out into equal discrete amounts over twenty six fortnights
in the year. They were going to use that to
tell a customer, you've got a debt, even if they
knew that they didn't.
Speaker 5 (06:35):
Even if you think, well, forget about you know, you
obviously have no concern about the customer, or maybe talk
about yourself, then wouldn't you find it easier to check
the record Thirty seconds sometimes is enough, then send the
debt notice out, have the customer, then have to try
and contact, then have asked for a review, then have
(06:58):
to go and review the dead and then there's a
whole process that has to be gone through, which could
have been stopped in thirty seconds from going out. But
there was this gung ho. It became like it's almost
like an accounting machine that you know, was devoid of
all humanity.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
They could never have known then that the powerful people
who cooked up the idea had legal advice that should
have unequivocally killed the idea before it ever began. Instead,
they found themselves in a maddening battle for the truth
as people started dying. Perhaps more than anyone in the
then Department of Human Services, it was Colleen Taylor who
fought that fight. It almost ruined her.
Speaker 6 (07:47):
And welcome back to Richard in our camera scidio. Is
Scott Morrison, the man who's stopped the boats and is
now going to stop Who knows what we'll find out?
Can I Scott?
Speaker 2 (07:55):
How are you good? Graham?
Speaker 6 (07:58):
Who are you going to crack down on because of Blakeloke?
He's not going to sit there and do nothing.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
Now?
Speaker 6 (08:01):
Has that mean that anyone on the doll has got
to look.
Speaker 7 (08:04):
Out, well, anyone who's who's trying to rip it Offter
is anyone who's trying to rip off the welfare system
because every welfare benefit paid every benefit.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
So even deep within the Department of Human Services, Colleen
realized that this change was part of something much bigger.
In fact, hating on people on welfare had become almost
a national sport, and she realized that this was a
part of that.
Speaker 5 (08:28):
And everyone brought into this Okay, we've got ninety five
percent of people or more are ripping us off, so
let's get stuck into them, and I'm really ashamed of
the whole you know, from politicians to shock jocks, media, newspapers,
the public public writing in. You know, everyone brought into this.
(08:51):
You know, oh, let's get stuck into them. They're all
ripping us off, you know, and how much must that
have made people feel? But it was also from us
as well, because you know, you have felt a shame
to be a public servant. That we knew this was wrong,
but oh here we were. We were just going a
lot to do about it, you know, and it's like,
(09:11):
where was our moral fiber?
Speaker 2 (09:13):
So this approach of averaging income, it was raw greed roverdebt.
Could never have made the billions of dollars forecast for
the government without the assumption that every last one of
those so called discrepancies was going to result in a debt.
And to do that, everything had to be averaged. And
(09:34):
so this became a policy and it was rolled out
to staff like Colleen.
Speaker 5 (09:40):
It never occurred to us that this was illegal. Why
would we we think, Okay, this is this is something
that's been formulated and it's come down and this is
what you've got to work with. So we thought, okay,
well this is what we've got to deal with. Let's
make it as fair as we possibly can.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
But here's the thing. Colleen had evidence that the system
wasn't being wrought it. She was being asked to hunt
down people she knew from experience. We're not trying to
do the wrong thing. In other words, she was being
asked to be complicit.
Speaker 5 (10:10):
That was when I said, you're asking us to commit
a fraudulent act. And we have a fraud plan which
is supposed to be about identifying fraud within the employees,
and I said this should stand for our customers as well.
You are asking us to commit a fraudulent act by
allowing a debt to go through by saying, Okay, I
(10:31):
know there's something on the customer record that PU ows
there's no debt, but sorry, that was provided two years
ago and we can't use that.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
Here's what I find so compelling about Colleen Taylor as
a person. She's methodical, and she applies this rigor to
her own morality. You know, here watching this new system
unfold against a backdrop of demonization, she is so disturbed
by what she sees that, you know, the ordinary procedures
are not enough. She told her direct manager. Nothing happened.
(11:01):
She told the assistant director and was rebuked. And what's
a good, hard working employee to do. She reminds me
so much of these Metcats in this moment, because the
meercats aren't on the lookout for danger just for themselves.
They're doing it for the group, and Colleen is doing
all of this for other people. And so she goes
right to the top, and in doing so, Colin Taylor
transforms her own role in Robodette from disgusted onlooker to
(11:22):
administrative action hero. She wrote to the most senior person
in her entire department, secretary Catherine Campbell.
Speaker 5 (11:30):
And my feeling was that she's obviously being misled, because
I understood that at a secretary level, you wouldn't understand
the minutia of everything. And I thought, wow, who better
to tell her than me, who's been in the old
way and the new way, who was across at all,
who had the customer experience you have you. So I
(11:51):
started typing up my email and I would do this
at home and I'd be formulating and what have you.
And I certainly ran it past my team leader to
be sat in there office and he said to me, oh, Colleen,
you really got to cut it down. They're just not
going to read that much. I think that was when
I burst into tears for one hundred and fiftieth time
and said, no, I'm not changing a thing. And so anyway,
(12:12):
then I sent it off.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
And secretaries of departments have strict and unwavering obligations under
the law. Colleen Taylor thought Campbell was being misled. It
was in Campbell's best interest. She thought to read her
email very carefully and to treat it even more seriously.
Speaker 5 (12:32):
That morning, a phone call from Catherine Campbell saying we've
received this and we're onto it, and she was organizing.
She said, there'll be two of my staff we'll be
doing a phone hook up, which was being organized for
the next day. Very short conversation to say, Okay, I'm
passing it on to these people to look at. And
so I went out and said my goodness, you know,
(12:52):
and was like, wow, they're listening. Is all great, and
you know, So then we had the phone hook up
the next day and I base went through everything that
I'd gone through, and really I was pushing that, yes,
we're stuck with this averaging, because at that stage we
didn't realize that it was illegal. We thought were stuck
with it. I was impressing, Okay, if you're going to
(13:13):
do this averaging, this is all the bad results of it.
This is and then this is how the process is working,
and it's not working, and it's causing all sorts of
dreadful things. I mean, I was there, I think several hours.
Then in the end, I took the deep breath and
I just remember, as clear as day. Okay, so what
(13:35):
you're saying is the old process was very time consuming
and laborious, and this is going to be much quicker
and whatever. And I thought, I've just wasted two hours
of my life. And I remember going out to the
team leader and he went, I said, how to go?
And I said, I don't think she listened to a
word I said.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
The question, of course, is whether they intended to listen
at all. Neither Catherine Campbell nor any of her lieutenant's
dispatch to deal with the Erks and Colleen Taylor gave
any indication they knew the importance of what she was
desperately trying to tell them, Whether that was a studied
or a genuine ignorance. Colleen does not know what she
does know is that she understood exactly what the new
(14:16):
income averaging policy meant. She knew what Robodet would do.
Speaker 5 (14:21):
So you felt as if there was nothing to be
cheapd But the very awful thing was I said to
them when I came up back upstairs after doing those
reviews and it was quite clear these debts were going
out with duplications of employers. I came up and I
remember saying to them, you cannot do this to people.
(14:42):
People will commit suicide. You cannot do this to people.
And I remember one of the other team leaders said
to me, you're right, Colleen, but it's just gone too far.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
Just weeks later, Colleen Taylor read about the death of
Reese Corso in the Saturday Paper. He was a twenty
eight year old florist, musician and beloved son and brother.
Speaker 5 (15:10):
And then when sorry, when it came out in the
paper about Reyes, I remember that his beautiful face committing suicide.
I stormed into the manager and I said, look, it's
starting to happen, and it was just so awful.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
He was being hounded by private debt collectors on behalf
of Centerlink. The Royal Commission proved years later that his
debt belonged to the very first iteration of rubbodebt. He
was being hunted via statutory fiction. He killed himself for
a debt he did not owe.
Speaker 5 (15:55):
And anyway, so that was I left. I went on
to leave in I think May of twenty seventeen, and
took age retirement in July twenty seventeen.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
But what really After Colleen Taylor retired, she received a
letter from the department. Now, remember she's been working there
since nineteen eighty four, She's been promoted, she's diligent, she
trains other people. But the letter wasn't to thank her
for her service. It was to remind her that she
faced two years in prison as she ever spoke about
anything she learned throughout her career as a public servant.
(16:34):
There was no other correspondence. In short, it was a
so long and shut up, we'll be back after this.
(17:04):
Years passed for Colleen, sitting in retirement, scared that if
she ever spoke up about what she'd seen and heard,
she would be punished. Australia does not have a comfortable
relationship with whistleblowers. After all, she feared losing her own
pension or worse. But five years after leaving the department,
she saw an opportunity to tell part of her story.
(17:28):
The Royal Commission into Robodet was launched.
Speaker 8 (17:32):
The Royal Commission will examine the establishment of the scheme,
who was responsible for it, and why it was necessary,
how concerns were handled, how the scheme affected individuals, and
the financial cost to government, and measures to prevent this
ever happening again.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
So Colleen worked up the courage to make an anonymous submission.
Speaker 5 (17:55):
Well what happened was I knew that it was important
because of the detail, and I thought they're not going
to understand how this worked in practice.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
And soon after the Guardian Australia reporter Luke henriy Gerns
tracked her.
Speaker 5 (18:08):
Down and so I rang him and he said, your
name is already out there. It's your emails are part
of the exhibits and it's in there on their website.
And I went.
Speaker 2 (18:20):
Wholy, And she thought she was going to jail.
Speaker 5 (18:23):
The next thing Royal commissioners wanting to get in contact
with you. So we went through the whole song and
Dad's again. So we went in there and talked to
them and stupid me, I'm thinking, there's this lady there
who was excellent. They were all wonderful. She's typing away
furiously on a laptop and no, no, I can't. I'll
(18:43):
mention so you've got a bit of background, but I really,
you know anyway, so the next thing, well, if we'd
like you to appears No, no, no, no, no no,
I couldn't do that. And then well okay, and so
they did a few sample questions and I said, come,
I'm much better at writing things down. Could I just
write something down? And then it's like, well we will
do a statement. Oh okay, I'll do a statement. And
(19:04):
of course that's what I haven't realized. This person who's
been tapping away furiously is basically is the statement writing
my statement. But I mean we went through it. We
spent a whole day. It's always going through and changing
it so that you know, I was happy with the
statement and what have you. And then it was okay,
well then you're going to be as a witness, and
so oh no, And I really thought that I would
either freeze or I'd burst into tears.
Speaker 3 (19:26):
A commissioner. I call Colleen Taylor.
Speaker 9 (19:28):
Miss Taylor, before you sit down, can I ask would
you prefer to take an oath or an affirmation.
Speaker 5 (19:35):
So I was there sitting in the anti chamber or
what it was. I waited so long that I'd just
lost all my nerves what have you? And the other
thing I did is I took off my glasses so
I couldn't actually see people in the distance, and that helped.
And I said to mister Scott, I'm just going to
focus on you.
Speaker 9 (19:53):
You were formerly an employee of the Australian Public Service,
and would this be right? You started your employment in
the Australian Public Service on her about the year nineteen
eighty four.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
And this is a big deal for Colleen because she's
not like the senior public servants who are called to
give evidence that Senate estimates or other parliamentary inquiries, or
god forbid a robot at Royal Commission, where they're compelled
to give testimony. Colin is a normal person and what
makes her evidence so critical is that she never suffered
the curious lapses of memory that seemed to affect her superiors.
(20:30):
She remembered the details that other people just apparently didn't.
She remembered how the system used to work, all its
parts and procedures, and protocols and critically she knew what
had changed and could explain how those changes happened.
Speaker 3 (20:46):
And then these are your words.
Speaker 9 (20:47):
Please allow me, as a loyal employee of many years
standing who has only ever raised concerns in house, to
respond to you directly, as your statement tells me that
you are being misled, and I want to ensure my
words reach you. We cannot find a solution if the
problem is not correctly identified. It is possible we are
not even looking in the right direction for a solution.
(21:09):
And then the words in bold, there has been a
very dramatic change within the last eighteen months to the
way in which compliance successes income and calculates and recovers debt.
See that, yes, And was that your belief that there
had in fact been a dramatic change.
Speaker 2 (21:25):
Absolutely, and this wasn't an iteration in debt recovery. This
was a brand new money grab. Colleen remembered all of this,
and when the Royal Commission came knocking, she told them.
Speaker 5 (21:39):
I feel really blessed so that I had the opportunity
to be at the Royal Commission, because I think people
must have had days and days and days and weeks
of people going I don't remember, I don't recall. I
wasn't there. I didn't get that email or.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
What have you.
Speaker 5 (21:53):
And it must have been a breath of fresh air
someone to come along and say it was wrong and
be specific about why it was wrong and that they knew.
Speaker 3 (22:05):
When did you finish your employment?
Speaker 5 (22:08):
I retired age retired in July twenty seventeen.
Speaker 3 (22:12):
Can you tell us what the reason was for retiring.
Speaker 5 (22:15):
I I just was spent. I think I just it
was just the I guess, callous indifference that you just thought,
it's just what people do to each other, and it
was just so sad and it was and you just
thought nothing's going to change. And it seemed to that
(22:36):
it was for me hard to believe. I am a
shy personal I am. I just didn't want to be
front and center. I just thought, oh, this is I
hope I can just fade away, because I didn't want
it to be about me because so many other people
had suffered and what have you. And I know that
lots of friends and relatives were saying to me after
I appeared, oh, you know, you're trending on Twitter and
(22:58):
all this sort of stuff, and I'm going, oh, okay,
and people were saying just all these wonderful things, and
I thought it could really turn your head. And then
there was an email from Jenny Miller saying, I wish
my son had been able to speak to Colleen Taylor, sorry,
it would still be with me. And I thought that
(23:19):
puts everything into perspective. That's what I find intolerable about
this whole thing is they lied about Oh, people commit
suicide for all sorts of reasons and really had nothing
to do with Robert. There was definitely a.
Speaker 1 (23:32):
Connection for Colleen.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
Getting a letter from the mother of the young man
she had read about in the paper meant the world
and she wasn't being imprecise when she was talking about
Singe bureaucrat, saying you couldn't link Roberdette to people who
killed themselves and that it would be unfair to do
so because we just don't know what goes on inside
people's lives. But what Colleen knows is that there are
cases like Reese's, like another case mentioned in the same
(23:57):
breath at the Royal Commission of a woman who killed
herself after receiving debt reminder notices. In May twenty seventeen,
there are cases that are inexplicably linked to ROPODEBT.
Speaker 5 (24:10):
And to then go on about you know, oh, well
you don't know what's happening in people's lives, you know, Well, yes,
you do know that people are vulnerable, people are on benefits,
so generally there's lots of things happening in their life.
These are not the people to treat as criminals. These
are not the people to send out debt collectors to.
These are not the people to make it as difficult
(24:30):
as possible for them to navigate this system.
Speaker 4 (24:33):
You know.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
And if you don't know that, you shouldn't be in
charge of them.
Speaker 3 (24:36):
No, you shouldn't be making policies.
Speaker 5 (24:37):
And that's what I hope from the Commission, that they
identify the people who should never again be in a
managerial position where they're looking after things that involve the public.
You know, because there was just it was like a
that all had a botomies. There was the empathy gene
had just gone completely.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
You know.
Speaker 5 (24:56):
Whether that was a prerequisite to get into management, I
don't know, but it's just, you know, it just I
don't know, it hurts.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
It's easy now to look back and ask these types
of questions, why wasn't it stopped? Why didn't anyone seem
to care? And because of this Royal commission we know
at least some of the answers.
Speaker 5 (25:16):
It pained me that the only thing that stopped it
in the end was that it was illegal. And you think,
and thank god those people doggedly pursued it all those years,
But why wasn't it stopped? Because it was unjust, it
was unfair, it was cruel, all these things, none of
(25:40):
it seemed to make any difference. Just who was looking
at that?
Speaker 2 (25:44):
And while Colleen continues to struggle with whether she did enough,
whether she could have sent emails to more people or
yelled more loudly, we know Robodet continued because there were
many more people who didn't even try. They saw and
they chose silence.
Speaker 5 (26:06):
The big thing was that disappoints me is they didn't
deserve my loyalty. Still upsets me to this day. But
there was that overwhelming thing of there's nothing you can do.
You can just be a part of this horrible thing,
of what you're doing to people, knowing that, yes, you
(26:28):
would think stay there, fight, you know, and I still
do this day think what could I have done differently?
Speaker 2 (26:45):
Well, you leave there with your head held much higher
than almost everyone else.
Speaker 5 (26:50):
Yes, I am. I'm happy for what I did, and
I'm so glad that it's on the historical record and
that it's come up in the Royal Commission. And I
stand every single word I said. And I'm very, very
grateful to yourself, Luke and the Commission giving me this opportunity.
But please let me go back into the woodwork.
Speaker 2 (27:13):
I think you can go back in the woodwork and
hopefully a generation of public servants will be asking themselves,
what would Colleen Taylor do? Yes, exactly, because that would
be the right frame of mine.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
That's right.
Speaker 5 (27:23):
Thank you, thank you, thank you very much.
Speaker 2 (27:35):
The Royal Commission found that Katherine Campbell had ignored warnings
about Robertett repeatedly. You'll remember that's the Catherine Campbell, the
one who Colleen explicitly emailed about her concerns. She was
involved intimately in the preparation of the new policy proposal,
which removed all references to income averaging and had the
effect of misleading cabinet. She was also found to have
(28:00):
personally ordered her own officials to call off the request
for legal advice from the Australian Government solicitor because to
do so would likely prove embarrassing to her. Captain Campbell
is currently on leave from her nine hundred thousand dollars
a year job as a supervisor for the ucust Nuclear
(28:20):
Submarine Project and as Colleen Taylor.
Speaker 7 (28:24):
Colleen Taylor and she'll probably kill me for it, saying
her evidence was exemplary and Commissioner Holmes, as I said,
did focus in that she restored faith. So I'd love
to see Colleen Taylor, one of the frontline people in
the public service, get a PSM. That's just a personal opinion.
Speaker 2 (28:41):
Bill Shorten said Colleen should receive a Public Service Medal
for being one of the few public servants to step
forward and try and expose what happened.
Speaker 7 (28:50):
Because some of the real heroes here weren't the people
who should have been. The real leadership came from the
rank and file of the organization who spoke up, even
at risk of their own job security and promotion.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
Colleen'll be making a cup of tea and a cup
of coffee, and I think there's a certain calm that
comes with the knowledge that you did the right thing.
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If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.