October 3, 2023 • 48 mins
The term 'narcissist' seems to be thrown around a lot. It seems like a LOT of us have dated one so we wanted to unpack everything about narcissism. Nova Gibson is an expert on narcissistic abuse, the founder of Brighter Outlook Narcissistic Abuse Counselling Service, and the author of "Fake Love."
We unpack:
- Covert v Overt Narcissists
- Strategies they use like mirroring, love bombing, the discard process and gaslighting
- Distinctions between narcissism and psychopathy/sociopathy
- Is it possible for a narcissist to genuinely love, or are their affections always self-serving?
- Do narcissists ever change for the next person?
- Patterns of why people date one narcissist after another
You can get a copy of Nova's book Fake Love!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Lifelun Cut acknowledges the traditional custodians of country whose lands
were never seated. We pay our respects to their elders
past and present, always was, always will be Aboriginal Land.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Hi guys, and welcome back to another episode of Life
un Cut.
Speaker 3 (00:22):
I'm Laura, I'm Brittany, and this is a spanner in
the works, baby, because it's Wednesday, and you're used to
only hearing from us on a Tuesday. We are mixing
things up and we are dropping our interviews now on
a Wednesday. We're trialing it for the month of October,
and if it all goes well, we'll keep it, and
if it doesn't, we'll go back to the old format.
Speaker 4 (00:40):
I know it's only day one, but I'm vibing it.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
I'm vibing the new setup. We're not even a weekends Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday,
a bit of everything. You're getting the same amount of content.
We're just making it easier to access. And we have
a really good episode today.
Speaker 3 (00:52):
Yeah, we are talking about narcissism. We're talking to Novah Gibson.
She is an expert on it. She has written an
incredible book called Fake Love. But this this is a
topic that. Honestly, I feel like you and I could
talk about narcissism for so long because, yes, because we've
both experienced it, but also I think so many people
experience either being in a relationship with the narcissist, navigating
(01:14):
a friendship with someone who might have narcissistic tendencies. And
also the term narcissism I think gets thrown around so
much these days. It is such a quick insult for
people who behave in a way that may be self entitled.
But there really is a difference between someone who is
narcissistic and someone who is a narcissist, and that's something
that we're very much unpacking on this episode.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
Yeah, and we had these big grand plans with Nova
to talk about narcissism in relationships but also narcissism in
the workplace and with family members as well, Like we
wanted to cover it all, but we got a bit
carried away and we went really deep in the narcissism
in relationships chat. So what we've decided to do is
do just this episode relationships based, and then NOVA is
(01:55):
going to come back and we're going to get into
narcissism in the workplace and family as well, so those
episodes are going to be coming in the very near future.
Speaker 3 (02:02):
Yeah, like a part two and part three. Well, the
reasons you're that, and I mean, I don't even know
if it was like that. We're obsessed with it, but
I just feel like they're so I am.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
I didn't But.
Speaker 3 (02:10):
There's so much to it, And I think the more
that we started to unpack narcissism in romantic relationships, the
more that we realized we would be doing ourselves a
disservice to try and pack everything into one single interview.
And I think people are going to need and want
different things out of it. Like if you're dealing with
a parent who is narcissistic, that's a very different set
of expectations and rules and ways to address it than
(02:33):
what you would if you were dealing with someone in
your romantic life who was a narcissist. So that's why
we've kind of broken this up over three separate apps.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Now, before we.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
Get into that, now, I know there's a ninety nine
point nine to nine percent chance that you have your
phone in your hand right now.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Oh, you're listening to it on your phone. I can
sit to your podcast.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
I'm going to assume it's on your phone. If you
could do us the biggest favor, please, can you go
to the Podcast Awards, the Australian Podcast Awards and vote
for us Life Uncut for the Listener's Choice Awards.
Speaker 4 (02:58):
So.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
I know we've said it before, but this comes around
every year. It's so important to us. It is our
Oscar for the Podcasting Awards.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
And there's a whole bunch of categories that people get
nominated for and we never get nominated in our category,
but we can win the Listener's Choice, which is your vote,
and for Laura and I it's the one that we
really care about because you guys are the ones we
care about, you know. So if you could type in
Podcast Awards vote for Life Uncut for the Listener's Choice,
we'd be super super grateful.
Speaker 3 (03:23):
I mean, if there's ever been an episode that you've
listened to that you've loved, if you shared it with
a friend, or if you've just been on this Life
Uncut ride for the last four years along with us,
it's not what you're doing. Go fire up the Podcast
Awards and swingers your vote. Also, if you don't know this,
it's kind of annoying because you've got to put the
vote in and then you've got to get an email back,
and then you've got to authenticate your vote.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
It's a two steps it's not annoying.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
It takes twenty seconds, but if you don't do the
two stepper, it doesn't count. So too firm in your email,
make sure you confirm and your email.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
Anyways, I think.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
What I found really interesting with Nova was the idea
of can a narcissist change? Because I think that's something
everybody asks themselves, right like are you the per that
makes them better and they go on and be better
or are they always going to be this person?
Speaker 3 (04:03):
Well, I'm in the back of this as well, Like
the other part of this is can a narcissist really
love you? Do they have the capacity? And do they
love in the same way that we do? And that
is something that we really unpack on this episode. Nova
Gibson is the author of Fake Love, Understanding and Healing
from Narcissistic Abuse. She's also the director and founder and
primary counselor of Brighter Outlook Narcissistic Abuse Counseling Service. Nova
(04:26):
has a Bachelor of Social Science specializing in behavior and
today Well, she's here to talk.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
About narcissists with us. Nova. Welcome to life on Cut.
Speaker 4 (04:35):
Hi guys, thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
No, thanks for coming on.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
Laura and I have like a weird, sick obsession with
talking about narcissism. It's how the podcast started. Four and
a half years ago. We bonded over narcissists and the
love has sort of stayed with us ever since. We've
done an episode a few years ago on it and
we thought, you know what, it's time to delve deep again.
Speaker 3 (04:55):
Yeah, like when you say that, Britt, it really is
how the podcast started. We both had our own experience
is dating someone two different people, not the same person,
but who were we think narcissists because we experienced all
of the telltale signs.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
Yeah, and it's something that we'll.
Speaker 3 (05:10):
Get into with you, this idea that like it's almost
up to the person to try and unpack whether the
person they're in a relationship with is a narcissist, because
often it's so undiagnosed. But before we speak about all
of that, Nova, i'd love to know what your accidentally
unfiltered story is.
Speaker 4 (05:26):
Okay, so not many people know this, but before my
practice started to expand I was actually training students in
diplomas of counseling and it was online. And one day
one of my children had called me to ask what
we were having for dinner, like right in the middle
of a busy day, and I was speaking to one
(05:47):
of my clients and I was typing away while I
think he was like a you know, a middle aged gentleman,
really nice old guy, and I got distracted, so right
at the end of the call, I said, Okay, love
you by So I got off the phone and I'm like,
oh my goodness, I just told a client that I
love them, so because that's the standard thing that you're
(06:10):
in the boundaries. Yeah, exactly, not the kind of thing
that a counselor is supposed to be saying to their clients.
But I had to bring that man back and go,
you know what, I really don't love you. You are
a lovely guy. But I was just talking to my son,
and that's just the way we end phone calls right,
red face, And yeah, I never lived it down at work.
(06:33):
The fact that I told client that I that I love.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
Them, This is very unprofessional of me. I do not
love you. I just want to make it very very
clear exactly.
Speaker 4 (06:41):
I think you're a lovely guy and you're worthy of love,
but I.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
Don't love you. That was an accident, all right, Well,
let's get into it. Nova. Why was it that you
wanted to write the book Fake Love?
Speaker 1 (06:52):
Why did you want to write a whole book on narcissism?
Speaker 4 (06:54):
I wrote Fake Love. I've been meaning to do it
for a long long time. I wanted to put all
all my thoughts down on paper that I had been
counseling people around for, you know, ten years or so,
but it all started with my own experience. That's the
reason I started to specialize in narcissistic abuse recovery for victims,
because when I sought help, there was none. I went
(07:18):
to all the usual places, and although the psychologist I
saw was absolutely lovely, it just seemed like they had
no idea, and I felt like I was telling them
what was going on, and I felt quite patronized because
they were saying things like, well, it sounds like your
co dependent, and I'm like, no, this has nothing to
(07:41):
do with codependence. So then I went through my own
healing journey to heal my own trauma and discovered that
victims were just crying out for assistance. There was just
no one in my profession who really really got it,
who understood the insidiousynamic of narcissistic abuse. So I started
(08:02):
specializing in it, and then I decided to write the
book so I'd have everything. I'd tell everyone and support
everyone with all that information in one place.
Speaker 3 (08:12):
I'll never forget when I I mean, We've spoken about
loads on this podcast in the past, but I'll never
forget when I went through the relationship that I did.
And then it was when everything was unraveling and like
it didn't make sense, and I remember reading something about
narcissists and I remember reading about the kind of steps,
about the discard process and the invalidating and I remember
(08:35):
seeing this article and reading through it and it was
like someone turned the light bulb on. It was so
instant that I was like, Oh my god, that's what
it is that I'm dealing with. That put into words
what I've been experiencing.
Speaker 4 (08:47):
The behavior is a textbook, aren't they. And you had
what I articulate in Fake Love. You had your light
bulb moment and the fact that you're starting to google
their behavior and you're hearing that word and it's having
that massive impact on you, like a veil has been lifted.
Is a huge red flag in itself, because when you're
(09:09):
in a healthy relationship, you don't tend to, you know,
start googling your loved one's behavior and everyone has to
wait till they have their own light bulb moment. And
that's when the journey starts. It doesn't necessarily mean but
you're going to leave because of very powerful connections that
have been set up with your abuses, such as that
(09:31):
very powerful trauma bond. But it's the start the penny drops.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
Do you think as well?
Speaker 3 (09:37):
I mean, now we are speaking more and more about narcissist,
about narcissistic behavior. Do you think that the word gets
thrown around too much that it almost invalidates how severe
it can be.
Speaker 4 (09:48):
Absolutely, And that has been going on for such a
long time. It's a buzzword, and I think that makes
it very, very difficult for victims because it minimizes their experience.
It's society tends to think that narcissists are someone who
looks in the mirror all the time. They're arrogant, they
brag a lot, and what that means is you can
(10:09):
see them coming. But most of the beautiful clients that
I work with, their loved ones are what we call
covert narcissus, and there is so much more to them
than looking in mirrors, which really relates to what we
call an overt narcissist.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
So what's covert?
Speaker 4 (10:27):
Covert narcissists can be actually shy, quite introverted. They can
be charismatic to the outside world, and their abuse takes
place often on a very passive, aggressive level behind closed doors.
They can be quite anxious because they are sometimes shy
and the opposite of an overt narcissist. This is how
(10:49):
they infiltrate your life so easily. You know, they put
on the charm and you don't pick them as someone
who's going to abuse you.
Speaker 1 (10:59):
Then, now, if covert narcissism is I'm assuming it's they're
a bit smoother and it's a bit more low key,
and not everyone is seen it. Like you said, people
aren't seeing it coming. How does the overt narcissists present.
Are they also love bombing and doing all these subliminal,
low key sort of measures to infiltrate your life or
are they more like in your face.
Speaker 4 (11:20):
They use the same strategies. They will mirror you. They
will mesmerize you with brandiose gestures of love and commitment,
the mirroring you where they mirror your best qualities back
to you, so you think you've met your soul mate.
They use those same strategies, but the covert narcissist is
more passive, aggressive, and you don't see them coming.
Speaker 3 (11:43):
Essentially, when you say that somebody has this personality type
and they follow such a similar pattern of behavior that
we see on repeat, it's almost like color by numbers
to be this version of a person.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
But how does someone become another? Like are you born
with that?
Speaker 1 (11:58):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (11:58):
Are you born with it? Is an environment.
Speaker 4 (12:00):
Yeah, So the exact cause is not known, but much
research tends to center around, as you said, Laura, around
environmental influences such as previous trauma or the flip side
of that, where they're overindulged and there's no consequences, there's
no rules, they get rewarded for bad behavior, and some
(12:20):
research will also link in genetics as being responsible for
that personality disorder developing, but the exact cause is not
actually known because if you think about it, a narcissist
does not think there is anything wrong with themselves.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
I was just about to ask you, does a narcissist
know they are narcissist?
Speaker 4 (12:42):
Well, a narcissist thinks they're special. Narcissist has this grandiose
view of themselves, whether they are overt or covert, they
think they're superior. That's one of the major traits of
a narcissist. So are they going to admit that they're
a narcissist? Well, unless they're one of those is absolutely
highly malignant narcissists who could care less about being called
(13:07):
that name, most narcissists are not going to admit that
because that would be to admit being flawed and to
have some kind of deficit, some kind of weakness. So
a narcissist does not view themselves as having a problem.
It's everyone else that has the problem. And of course
it's probably the only disorder where the actual person with
(13:30):
the disorder is not negatively impacted by it's everyone around
the narcissist who is in therapy. Yes, so yeah, it's
an interesting question that I get asked to lot. Do
they know, Well, they know that they're different in terms
of they think they're special, and if someone just doesn't
(13:51):
worship them, that's just because they're misunderstood. They just haven't
seen their you know, their special qualities because they're so
below them.
Speaker 1 (13:59):
Speaking of disorders, how does narcissism differ or intersect with
other disorders like sociopathy or psychopathy? Because I used to
throw the term back in the day a sociopaths to
throw that around a lot, like he's a sociopath.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
What are the differences?
Speaker 4 (14:13):
Yeah, well, look, the terms do get intertwined a lot.
But research says that a narcissist, well, they all fall
into what we call the cluster be personality disorders, okay,
and sociopathy and psychopathy fall into a category that we
call anti social personality disorders. Now, the difference between a
psychopath and a sociopath is that a psychopath is born. Okay,
(14:37):
So studies have actually shown, you know, differences in the
wiring I guess in their brain where a sociopath is made.
You know, perhaps they were brought up by a very abusive,
intolerant parent who has created that sociopath through role modeling
and the environment. So that's the difference between a sociopath
(14:58):
and a psychopath. One's borne made. But the difference between
the antisocial personality disorders and a narcissistic personality disorder is
NPD is driven by shame. The narcissist has this massive
internal shame that they're forever trying to hide. That's why
they form this mask of superiority with their false self
(15:19):
we call it because they're trying to bury that true self,
which is weak and wounded and vulnerable, and they crave
the attention and the admiration of other people to maintain
their ego and keep that vulnerability and weakness at bay.
A sociopath and a psychopath, on the other hand, that
(15:39):
it need attention. They regulate their own ego, They regulate
their own emotions so they won't get anxious. They don't
care what people think about them. They will be very impulsive,
very reckless, engaging in behaviors to get what they want
crimes because they don't think about the consequences. It's about
(15:59):
getting what they want and they don't care what other
people think. Whereas a narcissist will experience massive anxiety if
they think that someone is thinking badly of them. That
will create a massive narcissistic injury, and they have a
hairline trigger for criticism, which is very different to the
antisocial personalities.
Speaker 3 (16:22):
Is that not like almost a contradiction though, this idea
that someone who is narcissistic sees themselves in such a
grandiose way, they see themselves as special, but then also
implicitly feel as though they carry this shame.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
How do those things kind of function side by side.
Speaker 4 (16:37):
Well, the dysfunction lies right there, Laura, in that this
mask of grandiosity and superiority and sense of entitlement is
to mask that shame. It's kind of like a shield
of armor that they develop to never be weak and
vulnerable again. And this is why they are devoid of
(17:00):
empathy and remorse, because they are considered weaknesses. So you
have empathy for someone else, you can get hurt. So
when they develop this disorder, whenever that happens, I guess
that empathy switch, so to speak, switches off. That's the
trade off, and humans devoid of empathy in an adult body.
(17:22):
That's a scary thing.
Speaker 3 (17:23):
Yeah, it makes me think because like, and I guess
if for anyone who's ever been in a romantic relationship
with someone who is truly narcissistic, you almost sometimes see
these moments of vulnerability, and so you see that as
your entry point, Like I remember in my relationship it
was very much like he could be this version that
I hated, but then he also had this weakness or
(17:45):
like this vulnerability about him that I was like, if
only we could crack into that. And I think that
that is often when you're in a relationship with someone,
you see those little parts of them, and then you
keep on trying to chip away so that they can
be that person, but they don't have the capacity to.
Speaker 4 (18:00):
Exactly, So those little bread crumbs of that person that
you were seeing, that is what victims cling on to,
victims of narcissistic abuse because it feels better. You know,
we experience what we call cognitive dissonance, where we dismiss
the mountains and mountains of abuse because that feels bad,
(18:23):
and we cling on to these bread crumbs which remind
us of that person, that person that doesn't exist that
we fell in love with, because that feels better. And
our brain, it sounds very strange, but our brain is
wired for safety, not happiness, so it wants to, I guess,
bring us back to a state of equilibrium by getting
(18:45):
rid of all those horrible feelings which comes when there's
conflicting information. I love this person, but they're abusing me,
so it gets rid of the mountains of abusive evidence,
so to speak. And to do that, though, you have
to make the abuse okay, which brings the victims to
(19:06):
engage in coping mechanisms such as minimizing the abuse. They
don't know what they're doing. Maybe I can help them,
you know what, Maybe it was my fault. I haven't
been having enough sex with them lately, so you know,
that's why they went and cheated. And of course, especially
the covert narcissist is going to play the victim all
(19:28):
the time, and they will use their victim hood, which
is kind of what you suggested there, Laura. They'll use
their victimhood to pull your empathy strings because they know
that you have that empathy, and they will use that
empathy as a weapon against you. The other thing that
you have to be mindful of is that people who
(19:49):
love you don't abuse you. Whether there's a percentage of
time that's only ten percent twenty percent where they're abusing you,
that's ten twenty percent too much. It should be zero.
But victims will offset the ten twenty percent whatever it
is of abuse because the eighty percent when they're not
(20:10):
abusing them feels like heaven because it is heaven compared
to a normal relationship. No, but because the abuse has ended.
Speaker 3 (20:20):
No.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
But you just said something that I want to go
back to for a second. You said, our brain is
actually wired more for safety than happiness.
Speaker 4 (20:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:28):
I think that's going to be surprising to a lot
of people. I was surprised by that. I always thought
that we as humans sought out happiness, probably over anything else.
Especially you would think white people might see in a
narcissistic relationship, they're not safe. But those eighty percent moments
of happiness I would have thought is white people stay.
So generally speaking, we're made to seek safety before happiness.
Speaker 4 (20:52):
Well, when you're experiencing trauma in your life, your brain
is going to want to keep your life. So you've
got to survive that trauma. So your brain's number one
job is to keep you alive. It's to keep you safe.
So all of those terrible feelings, the literal chemicals that
pulsate through your body, the cortisole that are pumping when
(21:14):
you are walking on eggshells in that state of fight
or flight, that keeps you safe in the trauma. But
when we're without and we'll get into this latter. But
this chemical cocktail that is associated with the trauma bond,
our brain wants the dopamine back again. It wants to
get rid of all that horrible cortisol it needs. Just
(21:38):
like a heroin addict in cold Turkey, or withdrawal from
the drug craves another hip of the drug because they
love the drug. No, because they want the withdrawal to end.
So this is the same principle where our brain wants
to get rid of that horrible withdrawal from that which
we've become addicted to without knowing, and get rid of
(22:01):
those horrible withdrawal symptoms.
Speaker 3 (22:03):
You also said often the reason why you get so
hawked in these relationships is because they're so magical at
the start.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
They really are. They're unbelievably perfect, too good to be true.
Speaker 3 (22:13):
Some may say, yeah, And the chemistry is there, and
this feeling of truly fighting your soulmate, this like unbelievable
match which comes about. And then it's this process where
they start behaving in a way where you're like, I
don't even know who that person is. I can't even
recognize that person, and so you're constantly trying to get
back to what you originally had.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
But you said that that's not real.
Speaker 3 (22:35):
How do you almost recognize or come to terms with
the fact that that's not real. Because it feels so
real and for such a long period, it can be
very very real. And I know that that process and
that length of time can be different for all different people.
Speaker 4 (22:49):
Yeah, it is very real. For each victim. This was
a real relationship. You don't know that it's one sided
until you have your life moment, and even then it
takes time and lots of support. I think that that
realization that this person doesn't love you, because people who
(23:11):
love you don't do what they did to you. They
don't abuse you in such a horrific, callous way. But
it is the most painful realization. You feel like you
lost your yourself. You were used, you were conned by
this person, and it takes a lot of time to
(23:32):
really come to terms with the fact that this person
was duping you. But with lots of support and seeing
it in front of you, I get people to journal
the abuse so they can see what this person did
to them. You can see that someone who loves you well.
Number One, the grand your gestures in the beginning that's
(23:53):
not normal. So that's that's a red flag if you
experience those fireworks, you know in the beginning. I'm not
to say that it doesn't happen once every blue moon,
but for the most part, that's not normal to become
enmeshed with someone that quickly and experience that soul made effect.
And that's because it's manufactured. So you fall in love
(24:17):
with that illusion of that person. But your biggest clue
when you have that light bulb moment that it wasn't
real is because someone who is capable of loving you
with that intensity does not suddenly rip the carpet out
from underneath your feet and do a complete shape shift.
(24:38):
People who love you do not do that. And this
is where you experience such confusion, because your prince or
your princess is gone and you don't know why and
you want them back.
Speaker 2 (24:53):
Is a narcissist actually capable of love?
Speaker 4 (24:56):
Okay? I get asked that a lot, And what my
step ended answer to that is it depends what your
version of love is. You know, my version of love,
which I'm assuming would be the same as yours, is
someone who loves you, unconditionally, supports you, has compassion, empathy
(25:16):
does not intentionally try to make you feel insecure. You know,
we all have isolated incidents where we can snap at someone,
we might have a bit of a bad day. But
these are on going, consistent patterns of behavior over time,
which therefore forms their personality. So they know the value
(25:38):
that everyone else like you and I place on that word,
So they throw the word around a lot, but it
doesn't it's not backed up with action. So if you
look at what they do where they flip and they
flop and they go like a doctor jerkline, mister Hyde,
that's not what love looks like. That's what manipulation looks like.
(25:58):
So to answer, and I would say, no, love is
just a word they use because they know the value
that other people place on it, and they use it
to manipulate people.
Speaker 1 (26:09):
Do you find a real recurrent pattern with people once
they've dated a narcissist and then they're trying to move
on that they either want to constantly be picking fights
or having this tumultuous relationship moving forward because that's what
they used to and that's what they need, or that
people are just avert to even going into a new relationship.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
What are your patients like.
Speaker 1 (26:29):
In terms of their recovery from a narcissist in a
romantic relationship.
Speaker 4 (26:33):
Yeah, both, britt. Many people who haven't got the support
or haven't really understood narcissistic abuse will find themselves straight
back in another narcissistic relationship. And if you think about it,
it kind of makes sense because, as you know, at
the end of these relationships, you are rock bottom, there's
(26:53):
no closure, you're blamed for the abuse, you're an empty shell,
you're lost, And here is another narcissist sensing your core
wounds and they make you feel better. They're loving you
that I would never do that to you, So they're
healing the wound from the last narcissist. And of course
(27:16):
you haven't had this support around to understand narcissistic abuse
and what that love bombing actually is. And you're not
looking out for red flags. You just want to feel better.
But you were betrayed at a soul level by someone
you loved so much. How can you go on and
(27:37):
trust someone else again? And that's why it's so incredibly
important to get the right support, because you are going
to meet another narcissist. They are everywhere. It's a pandemic
out there.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
We don't have to worry about COVID. We got to
worry about narcissism.
Speaker 4 (27:55):
COVID's over. That NPD pandemic has begun, so they are
ouver you are going to meet another one. But as
your healing journey progresses and your boundaries are up here
and they become rock solid, and you do not override
your instincts. You trust your gut when you see a
red flag, remembering you're not going to pick it immediately.
(28:17):
Most of the time, when you see that red flag,
it will be a deal breaker and you will get
your Nike shoes on. That's the difference, because you've got
to expect to meet another one. The difference will be
not it's not a matter of trusting others, you'll trust yourself.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
I think that this is a fear right.
Speaker 3 (28:35):
People often think, oh, they're going to go into the
next relationship and they're going to be better. They're going
to go in the next relationship and they'll make that
person happy and they'll live happily ever after.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
And why couldn't have been with me?
Speaker 4 (28:45):
It is probably the one that well, one of the
one things I hear from everyone. You think about it,
you've been abused, you've been given no closure. You're feeling insane,
You're a shell of yourself. You're most probably still addicted
trauma bond to your abuser, and you're seeing them immediately
discarding you, or if you've managed to escape, not looking back,
(29:08):
like you're just something on the bottom of their shoe
and here they are with the next soul mate. You've
been blamed for the abuse, You've developed some coping mechanisms
to a portion, blame to yourself, not forgetting. You reacted
in ways that you're not proud of in the reactive abuse.
What if this person's not like you? What if the
(29:30):
next target is not crazy like in a vert commas
you are, You've been conditioned to feel that way. What
if they give that person that love bombed you. What
if that person remains for the whole time and this
new target is not as messed up as I am.
Every victim thinks this way. But as sure as the
(29:52):
sun comes up tomorrow, the love bombing must finish, and
they will go through exactly the same side, because that
over the top love bombing period is not sustainable. It's
got to be about them. And as soon as they
know that their new victim is hooked and they're not
going anywhere. That's when they will have the carpet pulled
(30:17):
and they will be struggling to get their soul mate back,
so they never ever change for the next person. But
this is what also the narcissist thrives on is it's
not just schmorgasball. They've got your pain. They think you're pathetic,
you're so weak because you're crying and you deserved what
you've got anyway, and they're getting the new target is
(30:40):
reflecting back to them. How amazing that because that's what
they're perceiving of the narcissist who is love bombing them.
So they've got your negative supply, they've got the new
target's positive supply. And here they are on this pedestal
just thinking that they're eating a bit.
Speaker 3 (30:58):
How can you talk look us through what a trauma
bond is because this is so instrumental as to why
people stay in narcissistic relationships. And it's almost like all
of their friends and family around them may recognize how
toxic that relationship is, but you become almost addicted to
the volatility, the highs and lows of the relationship.
Speaker 4 (31:18):
Yeah, you do become addicted. Trauma bonding is essentially an addiction.
So I'm just going to got touched very briefly on
what happened to the victims in Stockholm, because this just
solidifies what happens for narcissistic abuse victims. So trauma bonding
is another word for Stockholm syndrome. So a bank was
(31:38):
held up, I think going back to something like nineteen
seventy six in Stockholm, Sweden. Now the terrorists talk I
think four hostages. They kept them for like four or
five days. What happened there was they were isolated from
their loved ones, from the community for four or five
days and nights. They were terrorized. They were told that
(32:00):
they were going to die. But as the terrorsts spent
more time with the victims, the victims started to humanize them.
They were making them comfortable, they were getting them cups
of tea, they were talking about their own lives. In
other words, the victims started to humanize the terrorists. They've
just had a bad past, they're not really bad people.
(32:20):
What was actually happening here was that the terrorists had
put them in fear for their life, but getting them
isolated on their own and all of the strategies they used,
especially ending the terror and making them feel better, which
felt like heaven, you can imagine to these victims. It
(32:42):
created this very very powerful trauma bond where the victims
were experiencing rock bottom lows followed by major, major highs
which replaced the rock bottom lows. So there was this
chemical cocktail going on in their bodies. In the end,
it was just perceived highs where there was nothing really
(33:04):
nice going on. It was just that the abuse had ended.
Now this roller coaster of emotions where the abuser abuses
you and then becomes the only one to be able
to heal the wounds they created, which is your withdrawal.
Essentially the pain of not having that roller coaster in
your life. Your abuser becomes the only one who can
(33:24):
heal the wound. So when you come out or you
think of being without your abuser, you're essentially flatline. What
am I if I haven't got you know that roller
coaster in my life? Again, it's the equivalent of the
heroinattic having their drugs flushed away, and the victim literally
(33:45):
craves their abuse or just a glimpse of them, just
to unblock them because they love them no, because they
want that horrible anxiety that builds and builds and builds
and builds until they unblock and then they experience relief
from the withdrawal. So that's where this very powerful attachment forms.
(34:09):
That the victims don't understand them themselves, let alone someone
outside of the relationship, because it defies logic that you
on a logical level, because this has got nothing to
do with a lack of intelligence or weakness, and it's
got everything to do with the insidious nature of their
abuse and creating this addiction under like an iceberg under
(34:32):
the level of awareness. So it's like someone if you
can imagine, in your sleep, someone comes and puts heroin
in your body every night. You don't know it's happening,
and all of a sudden, one day, you know, a
few weeks you're craving heroin. You'll literally crawl along on
your hands and knees just for a whiff of it
to end the withdrawal. This is what's happening when you're
(34:54):
craving your abuser and you think you love them. You
don't love them because love feels good. It's just that
it feels so painful to be without them. That's not love,
that's addiction.
Speaker 3 (35:06):
I recognize this because I even remember I remember going
through one of our mini toxic lows and I thought
the relationship was going to end, and I remember pulling
over the side of the road having a full blown
panic attack.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
Yeah, because of where we were at.
Speaker 3 (35:18):
And I've never experienced that in another relationship, and I
could never imagine the experience in that in my now relationships.
Speaker 2 (35:24):
But that became so normal.
Speaker 3 (35:26):
It became so normal to have this like unbelievable anxiety
around what if they're going to leave?
Speaker 4 (35:32):
It is absolutely the same thing. And there was actually
studies where people that were in that heist and other
kidnapping scenarios went out to seek adrenaline seeking activities because
they without this walking on eggshells and this rollercoaster of
you know, being in a constant state of fight or flight,
(35:53):
there was just emptiness. They didn't know how to cope,
how to survive.
Speaker 1 (35:59):
I remember my relationship ended, it was two years, and
there's so much went on about that. We've spoken about
it a lot on the podcast, but there's a lot
of stuff that happened that I will never speak about
because it was just too intense and too bad. But
I remember when it all came out. I'm embarrassed and
ashamed to say it. But if it wasn't as bad
as it was, if this one extra thing hadn't happened,
(36:20):
I would have gone back one hundred percent knowing the
abuse that I had put up with. I remember thinking,
if only I didn't find that part out, because I
probably could have accepted the rest of it.
Speaker 2 (36:30):
Like in my head, it wasn't as bad.
Speaker 1 (36:32):
And I look back now in hindsight and I'm like,
oh my god.
Speaker 4 (36:35):
Addictions are not rational, are they. The gambling addict, for instance,
who knows they lost their house and their family rationalizes
a way, how that wasn't as bad as it really was,
to get the dopamine back again, to get another fixed.
So what happened to you, Brett, and to every victim,
is that, over the course of time, with the insidious
(36:59):
of erosion away that you didn't know was happening of
your boundaries and your sense of self, you developed a
threshold for abuse that was sky high, and a threshold
for respect that was on the floor. And you can't
fall off the floor. That's as low as you can go.
And that example that you gave is so normal and
(37:21):
so common breadth. And I hear people saying to me,
you know, they just told me about these absolutely hideous
betrayals and domestic violence, and they say to me, yeah,
but he didn't do this or she didn't do this,
And I'm like, you're waiting for that to be the
defining moment. I don't say that because I get it,
(37:43):
I understand it.
Speaker 1 (37:44):
No, But I remember saying he loved me. He loved
me still to other people, it's like he just loved
me differently, like he just loved those other people as well.
But I still was justifying. I was like, it was real.
It's just he loves differently.
Speaker 4 (37:58):
That's your brain minimizing the abuse, rationalizing in a way.
That's your cognitive dissonance kicking in to make the abuse
not as bad as it is. Remember us saying earlier
that our brain dismisses all of the abuse, and therefore
we have to make the abuse not as bad as
it is, because the thought of being without that is
(38:19):
just overwhelming.
Speaker 3 (38:20):
Something you said about the erosion of boundaries over time
and your self respect being so far down on the
floor that there's nowhere else to go. I think for
anyone who's been in a narcissistic relationship, they will really
identify with that because it's almost like you get to
a point where you're like.
Speaker 2 (38:37):
How am I tolerating this?
Speaker 3 (38:38):
I never would have tolerated this before, but it becomes
so normal that you will tolerate even worse. If you
are somebody who's in a narcisstic relationship, what are your options?
Speaker 2 (38:48):
Like, what do you do?
Speaker 3 (38:49):
Is there ever going to be something that you can
do to get that person to change, or is your
only option to walk away?
Speaker 4 (38:56):
Your only option is to walk away unequivocally, run. Run,
and those Nike shoes or whatever the latest brand is.
You have no sponsors, get those running shoes on. Well
maybe they will now, who knows. Get those running shoes
on and leave. I say this over and over again
in fake Love. Your job is not to fix your
(39:18):
abuser and learn to risk manage their abuse. Your job
is to leave. You can reevaluate whether you think they're
a narcissist or not from a distance where you'll have
more perspective. But just quickly, I wanted to just touch
on reactive abuse, because this is what every victim engages in,
(39:39):
and it's another thing that makes them feel responsible for
the abuse. Maybe they deserved it. They're getting told by
the actual abuse or the actual narcissist, that they're a narcissist,
which is even more confusing. They start to buy into
it because they did act crazy at times, they did
act volatile, and guys, this, I just want all your
(40:01):
listeners to know that whatever you did, this is normal.
It's irrational. Those crazy behaviors we go through when we're
being provoked until we finally reach that threshold, which is
where the narcissist wants you to be. They manipulate you
to engage in that reactive abuse. These volatile behaviors that
(40:24):
you feel so remorseful about are normal. Irrational, but normal
given the context of your abuse and the difference between
you reacting to the abuse and the abuser abusing you,
which can be very hard for outsiders to understand, let
alone the victim when the outcome is the same. The
(40:44):
difference is in the motivation, where the narcissist is intentionally
baiting you, provoking you until you finally erupt in that
isolated incident, some behavior that's so far removed from your character,
and then they go gotcha, you're the abuser, then I
might video and get the camera out, put it on TikTok,
(41:07):
and then there'll be a trial by TikTok for you.
Speaker 3 (41:09):
How powerful is silence when dealing with a narcissist? How
powerful is just shutting down and not engaging Because if
this idea of baiting and trying to get a reaction
is the sole motivator, what happens when you stop.
Speaker 4 (41:22):
Silence is everything. But it's only going to be beneficial
to you, especially in the intimate relationship. If you get away,
you've got to get out of the environment that's making
you sick, so to speak. But we say silence is
golden combined with no contact minimal contact gray rock. If
(41:42):
it's your partner, is the parent of your child, or
it's someone you work with, but the narcissist does everything
in their power to get you to react. They rely
on what we call narcissistic supply. That's their oxygen that
tells them the mask of grandiosity that they wear is real.
So that's why they will fly into these narcissistic rages
(42:04):
if they even perceive criticism, because what you're telling them
when you want to just have a discussion with them
about their behavior, or talk about your feelings or something
they've done. What you're telling them is that mask isn't real.
I've seen behind you. You're telling them they're flawed. So
you're creating a narcissistic injury. The narcissists will want you
(42:27):
punish you to heal that narcissistic injury. So if you
don't react, which it means you're rendering them insignificant in
your life. That is, that's like throwing acid in the
face of the narcissists, curiating, yeah, because they're losing control
of you. So a very important acronym that I talk
(42:49):
about with my beautiful counseling clients is an acronym that
we call jade, and I also talk a lot about
this in Fake Club. Probably the most important one you
need to know Jade. Everything the narcissist does and says
is to get you to jade with them, to justify, argue, defend,
(43:10):
and it's to ease, explain, and give them your emotions.
Now when they're they're gas lighting you, telling you that
the sky's purple with such conviction, and you're trying to
get up the screenshots to go no, it's not it's blue.
They already know you're right. They want you to go
crazy trying to prove it. And your reactions are their oxygen.
(43:34):
So when you cut them off from your reactions, that's
the worst thing that you can do to them. That's
not the goal. The goal is not to get revenge
or punishment with the narcis when you do go no contact.
The goal is to hear you try and get revenge,
you play their game and they're still inside your head.
You can't. You can't get revenge against a narcissist because
(43:56):
they don't have the same emotions as you do.
Speaker 1 (43:58):
So fascinating and I think something that most of us
in our lifetime will come across. We're going to deal
in some capacity, whether it's in a romantic relationship, a
work relationship, or family, a parent or a brother or sister.
Speaker 2 (44:10):
And we definitely if.
Speaker 1 (44:11):
You'd come back, nov we want to continue this narcissistic
chat with families and parents at a later date. Absolutely,
But thank you so much. Like it's so fascinating to us.
And every time doesn't matter how much you read, every
time we learn something else.
Speaker 3 (44:27):
Yeah, Also, every time I ever sit down and have
these conversations about it. It just and I'm sure you've
been seeing me shaking my head through this whole thing.
It's just this constant reminder. And I know, like Britta
and I have said it, like I was absolutely fucking
crazy in my relationship. I was an insane person. I
was insane.
Speaker 4 (44:47):
You feel insane. That is the job of the narcissist
to make you literally feel insane. Everyone feels the same
way because the abuse is just so covid and insidious,
and on top of that, everyone else is thinking they're
(45:07):
this great person because they're wearing the mask for everyone else.
And you're being gaslighted, which means your reality is being
distorted over time, so you do not trust what comes
out of your mouth. You don't trust what you hear
or see, so you feel insane. That's the end result
of every narcissistic abuse relationship.
Speaker 1 (45:30):
I don't know if you're the same, but I'm assuming,
but it's the validation as well. As the years go past,
sometimes I think back to myself and I was like,
was it that bad?
Speaker 2 (45:37):
Was he that bad?
Speaker 1 (45:38):
And then I have these conversations again and I'm like, fuck, yup, yep,
no he was.
Speaker 4 (45:42):
Yeah, that's why I get victims to write it down
so it's tangible, and when they're having a craving literally
they're feeling like they're going to explode unless they unblock
them and look at their new targets Instagram and just
get a little sneak peek at what they're doing, see
if they're happy. It's normal. It's irrational because we ignore
(46:05):
all the abuse, but it's normal in the context of
your abuse and the powerful addiction, the powerful trauma bond.
But you feel crazy and you feel powerless to stop it.
Speaker 2 (46:18):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (46:19):
I really do think that anybody who has experienced this
type of relationship would absolutely relate to everything that you're saying.
And also hopefully for somebody who may be dating a
nassist and is in the throes of the confusing period
when that relationship takes a shift, might be able to
recognize what it is and what's happening to them.
Speaker 4 (46:38):
That's my hope in my book is that you will
recognize yourself, you will feel validated, and you will get
out this was I don't care what you did, It
was not your fault. There were very specific strategies set
up to make you feel the way you feel but
(46:59):
whilst the use was not your fault, the healing is
going to be on you. Don't wait to change them.
I don't care. I mean it's awful, sounds awful to
say that, but someone who's been abused as a child,
the last thing they would think of is abusing someone else.
So if you're being abused in that person is using
(47:21):
their abuse to abuse you because you know they had
it tough, that is not an excuse. You're having your
empathy used against you. Get out regardless and heal yourself
and don't go to counseling with them. These are not
relationship issues. They are issues of abuse.
Speaker 1 (47:40):
Put your nikes on, do them up, run away, don't
look back exactly.
Speaker 2 (47:43):
Thanks so much and nov.
Speaker 4 (47:44):
My absolute pleasure. I'll see you on the next one.
Speaker 3 (47:48):
Guys, we hope that you got so much out of
that chat in terms of your romantic relationships and navigating
romantic relationships with a narcisses. Like we said in the beginning,
we are going to do part two on this where
we're going to be looking at what it is like
navigating a relationship with a narcissis when that narcissist might
be your mom or your dad, or someone in your
immediate family who you can't necessarily just walk away from.
Speaker 1 (48:10):
If you did get something from this episode, or you
know someone in your life that could benefit from this,
because chances are you probably do well statistics that you
probably do. Share this with them, point it in their direction,
share it on your socials. It also helps us grow,
which is really important for us to continue to bring
you these episodes and getting the most amazing guests view.
And on that note, don't forget tell your mum, te
(48:31):
your dad, tell you dog, tell your friends, and share
the love because we love love
Lifelun Cut acknowledges the traditional custodians of country whose lands
were never seated. We pay our respects to their elders
past and present, always was, always will be Aboriginal Land.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Hi guys, and welcome back to another episode of Life
un Cut.
Speaker 3 (00:22):
I'm Laura, I'm Brittany, and this is a spanner in
the works, baby, because it's Wednesday, and you're used to
only hearing from us on a Tuesday. We are mixing
things up and we are dropping our interviews now on
a Wednesday. We're trialing it for the month of October,
and if it all goes well, we'll keep it, and
if it doesn't, we'll go back to the old format.
Speaker 4 (00:40):
I know it's only day one, but I'm vibing it.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
I'm vibing the new setup. We're not even a weekends Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday,
a bit of everything. You're getting the same amount of content.
We're just making it easier to access. And we have
a really good episode today.
Speaker 3 (00:52):
Yeah, we are talking about narcissism. We're talking to Novah Gibson.
She is an expert on it. She has written an
incredible book called Fake Love. But this this is a
topic that. Honestly, I feel like you and I could
talk about narcissism for so long because, yes, because we've
both experienced it, but also I think so many people
experience either being in a relationship with the narcissist, navigating
(01:14):
a friendship with someone who might have narcissistic tendencies. And
also the term narcissism I think gets thrown around so
much these days. It is such a quick insult for
people who behave in a way that may be self entitled.
But there really is a difference between someone who is
narcissistic and someone who is a narcissist, and that's something
that we're very much unpacking on this episode.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
Yeah, and we had these big grand plans with Nova
to talk about narcissism in relationships but also narcissism in
the workplace and with family members as well, Like we
wanted to cover it all, but we got a bit
carried away and we went really deep in the narcissism
in relationships chat. So what we've decided to do is
do just this episode relationships based, and then NOVA is
(01:55):
going to come back and we're going to get into
narcissism in the workplace and family as well, so those
episodes are going to be coming in the very near future.
Speaker 3 (02:02):
Yeah, like a part two and part three. Well, the
reasons you're that, and I mean, I don't even know
if it was like that. We're obsessed with it, but
I just feel like they're so I am.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
I didn't But.
Speaker 3 (02:10):
There's so much to it, And I think the more
that we started to unpack narcissism in romantic relationships, the
more that we realized we would be doing ourselves a
disservice to try and pack everything into one single interview.
And I think people are going to need and want
different things out of it. Like if you're dealing with
a parent who is narcissistic, that's a very different set
of expectations and rules and ways to address it than
(02:33):
what you would if you were dealing with someone in
your romantic life who was a narcissist. So that's why
we've kind of broken this up over three separate apps.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Now, before we.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
Get into that, now, I know there's a ninety nine
point nine to nine percent chance that you have your
phone in your hand right now.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Oh, you're listening to it on your phone. I can
sit to your podcast.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
I'm going to assume it's on your phone. If you
could do us the biggest favor, please, can you go
to the Podcast Awards, the Australian Podcast Awards and vote
for us Life Uncut for the Listener's Choice Awards.
Speaker 4 (02:58):
So.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
I know we've said it before, but this comes around
every year. It's so important to us. It is our
Oscar for the Podcasting Awards.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
And there's a whole bunch of categories that people get
nominated for and we never get nominated in our category,
but we can win the Listener's Choice, which is your vote,
and for Laura and I it's the one that we
really care about because you guys are the ones we
care about, you know. So if you could type in
Podcast Awards vote for Life Uncut for the Listener's Choice,
we'd be super super grateful.
Speaker 3 (03:23):
I mean, if there's ever been an episode that you've
listened to that you've loved, if you shared it with
a friend, or if you've just been on this Life
Uncut ride for the last four years along with us,
it's not what you're doing. Go fire up the Podcast
Awards and swingers your vote. Also, if you don't know this,
it's kind of annoying because you've got to put the
vote in and then you've got to get an email back,
and then you've got to authenticate your vote.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
It's a two steps it's not annoying.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
It takes twenty seconds, but if you don't do the
two stepper, it doesn't count. So too firm in your email,
make sure you confirm and your email.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
Anyways, I think.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
What I found really interesting with Nova was the idea
of can a narcissist change? Because I think that's something
everybody asks themselves, right like are you the per that
makes them better and they go on and be better
or are they always going to be this person?
Speaker 3 (04:03):
Well, I'm in the back of this as well, Like
the other part of this is can a narcissist really
love you? Do they have the capacity? And do they
love in the same way that we do? And that
is something that we really unpack on this episode. Nova
Gibson is the author of Fake Love, Understanding and Healing
from Narcissistic Abuse. She's also the director and founder and
primary counselor of Brighter Outlook Narcissistic Abuse Counseling Service. Nova
(04:26):
has a Bachelor of Social Science specializing in behavior and
today Well, she's here to talk.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
About narcissists with us. Nova. Welcome to life on Cut.
Speaker 4 (04:35):
Hi guys, thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
No, thanks for coming on.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
Laura and I have like a weird, sick obsession with
talking about narcissism. It's how the podcast started. Four and
a half years ago. We bonded over narcissists and the
love has sort of stayed with us ever since. We've
done an episode a few years ago on it and
we thought, you know what, it's time to delve deep again.
Speaker 3 (04:55):
Yeah, like when you say that, Britt, it really is
how the podcast started. We both had our own experience
is dating someone two different people, not the same person,
but who were we think narcissists because we experienced all
of the telltale signs.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
Yeah, and it's something that we'll.
Speaker 3 (05:10):
Get into with you, this idea that like it's almost
up to the person to try and unpack whether the
person they're in a relationship with is a narcissist, because
often it's so undiagnosed. But before we speak about all
of that, Nova, i'd love to know what your accidentally
unfiltered story is.
Speaker 4 (05:26):
Okay, so not many people know this, but before my
practice started to expand I was actually training students in
diplomas of counseling and it was online. And one day
one of my children had called me to ask what
we were having for dinner, like right in the middle
of a busy day, and I was speaking to one
(05:47):
of my clients and I was typing away while I
think he was like a you know, a middle aged gentleman,
really nice old guy, and I got distracted, so right
at the end of the call, I said, Okay, love
you by So I got off the phone and I'm like,
oh my goodness, I just told a client that I
love them, so because that's the standard thing that you're
(06:10):
in the boundaries. Yeah, exactly, not the kind of thing
that a counselor is supposed to be saying to their clients.
But I had to bring that man back and go,
you know what, I really don't love you. You are
a lovely guy. But I was just talking to my son,
and that's just the way we end phone calls right,
red face, And yeah, I never lived it down at work.
(06:33):
The fact that I told client that I that I love.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
Them, This is very unprofessional of me. I do not
love you. I just want to make it very very
clear exactly.
Speaker 4 (06:41):
I think you're a lovely guy and you're worthy of love,
but I.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
Don't love you. That was an accident, all right, Well,
let's get into it. Nova. Why was it that you
wanted to write the book Fake Love?
Speaker 1 (06:52):
Why did you want to write a whole book on narcissism?
Speaker 4 (06:54):
I wrote Fake Love. I've been meaning to do it
for a long long time. I wanted to put all
all my thoughts down on paper that I had been
counseling people around for, you know, ten years or so,
but it all started with my own experience. That's the
reason I started to specialize in narcissistic abuse recovery for victims,
because when I sought help, there was none. I went
(07:18):
to all the usual places, and although the psychologist I
saw was absolutely lovely, it just seemed like they had
no idea, and I felt like I was telling them
what was going on, and I felt quite patronized because
they were saying things like, well, it sounds like your
co dependent, and I'm like, no, this has nothing to
(07:41):
do with codependence. So then I went through my own
healing journey to heal my own trauma and discovered that
victims were just crying out for assistance. There was just
no one in my profession who really really got it,
who understood the insidiousynamic of narcissistic abuse. So I started
(08:02):
specializing in it, and then I decided to write the
book so I'd have everything. I'd tell everyone and support
everyone with all that information in one place.
Speaker 3 (08:12):
I'll never forget when I I mean, We've spoken about
loads on this podcast in the past, but I'll never
forget when I went through the relationship that I did.
And then it was when everything was unraveling and like
it didn't make sense, and I remember reading something about
narcissists and I remember reading about the kind of steps,
about the discard process and the invalidating and I remember
(08:35):
seeing this article and reading through it and it was
like someone turned the light bulb on. It was so
instant that I was like, Oh my god, that's what
it is that I'm dealing with. That put into words
what I've been experiencing.
Speaker 4 (08:47):
The behavior is a textbook, aren't they. And you had
what I articulate in Fake Love. You had your light
bulb moment and the fact that you're starting to google
their behavior and you're hearing that word and it's having
that massive impact on you, like a veil has been lifted.
Is a huge red flag in itself, because when you're
(09:09):
in a healthy relationship, you don't tend to, you know,
start googling your loved one's behavior and everyone has to
wait till they have their own light bulb moment. And
that's when the journey starts. It doesn't necessarily mean but
you're going to leave because of very powerful connections that
have been set up with your abuses, such as that
(09:31):
very powerful trauma bond. But it's the start the penny drops.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
Do you think as well?
Speaker 3 (09:37):
I mean, now we are speaking more and more about narcissist,
about narcissistic behavior. Do you think that the word gets
thrown around too much that it almost invalidates how severe
it can be.
Speaker 4 (09:48):
Absolutely, And that has been going on for such a
long time. It's a buzzword, and I think that makes
it very, very difficult for victims because it minimizes their experience.
It's society tends to think that narcissists are someone who
looks in the mirror all the time. They're arrogant, they
brag a lot, and what that means is you can
(10:09):
see them coming. But most of the beautiful clients that
I work with, their loved ones are what we call
covert narcissus, and there is so much more to them
than looking in mirrors, which really relates to what we
call an overt narcissist.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
So what's covert?
Speaker 4 (10:27):
Covert narcissists can be actually shy, quite introverted. They can
be charismatic to the outside world, and their abuse takes
place often on a very passive, aggressive level behind closed doors.
They can be quite anxious because they are sometimes shy
and the opposite of an overt narcissist. This is how
(10:49):
they infiltrate your life so easily. You know, they put
on the charm and you don't pick them as someone
who's going to abuse you.
Speaker 1 (10:59):
Then, now, if covert narcissism is I'm assuming it's they're
a bit smoother and it's a bit more low key,
and not everyone is seen it. Like you said, people
aren't seeing it coming. How does the overt narcissists present.
Are they also love bombing and doing all these subliminal,
low key sort of measures to infiltrate your life or
are they more like in your face.
Speaker 4 (11:20):
They use the same strategies. They will mirror you. They
will mesmerize you with brandiose gestures of love and commitment,
the mirroring you where they mirror your best qualities back
to you, so you think you've met your soul mate.
They use those same strategies, but the covert narcissist is
more passive, aggressive, and you don't see them coming.
Speaker 3 (11:43):
Essentially, when you say that somebody has this personality type
and they follow such a similar pattern of behavior that
we see on repeat, it's almost like color by numbers
to be this version of a person.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
But how does someone become another? Like are you born
with that?
Speaker 1 (11:58):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (11:58):
Are you born with it? Is an environment.
Speaker 4 (12:00):
Yeah, So the exact cause is not known, but much
research tends to center around, as you said, Laura, around
environmental influences such as previous trauma or the flip side
of that, where they're overindulged and there's no consequences, there's
no rules, they get rewarded for bad behavior, and some
(12:20):
research will also link in genetics as being responsible for
that personality disorder developing, but the exact cause is not
actually known because if you think about it, a narcissist
does not think there is anything wrong with themselves.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
I was just about to ask you, does a narcissist
know they are narcissist?
Speaker 4 (12:42):
Well, a narcissist thinks they're special. Narcissist has this grandiose
view of themselves, whether they are overt or covert, they
think they're superior. That's one of the major traits of
a narcissist. So are they going to admit that they're
a narcissist? Well, unless they're one of those is absolutely
highly malignant narcissists who could care less about being called
(13:07):
that name, most narcissists are not going to admit that
because that would be to admit being flawed and to
have some kind of deficit, some kind of weakness. So
a narcissist does not view themselves as having a problem.
It's everyone else that has the problem. And of course
it's probably the only disorder where the actual person with
(13:30):
the disorder is not negatively impacted by it's everyone around
the narcissist who is in therapy. Yes, so yeah, it's
an interesting question that I get asked to lot. Do
they know, Well, they know that they're different in terms
of they think they're special, and if someone just doesn't
(13:51):
worship them, that's just because they're misunderstood. They just haven't
seen their you know, their special qualities because they're so
below them.
Speaker 1 (13:59):
Speaking of disorders, how does narcissism differ or intersect with
other disorders like sociopathy or psychopathy? Because I used to
throw the term back in the day a sociopaths to
throw that around a lot, like he's a sociopath.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
What are the differences?
Speaker 4 (14:13):
Yeah, well, look, the terms do get intertwined a lot.
But research says that a narcissist, well, they all fall
into what we call the cluster be personality disorders, okay,
and sociopathy and psychopathy fall into a category that we
call anti social personality disorders. Now, the difference between a
psychopath and a sociopath is that a psychopath is born. Okay,
(14:37):
So studies have actually shown, you know, differences in the
wiring I guess in their brain where a sociopath is made.
You know, perhaps they were brought up by a very abusive,
intolerant parent who has created that sociopath through role modeling
and the environment. So that's the difference between a sociopath
(14:58):
and a psychopath. One's borne made. But the difference between
the antisocial personality disorders and a narcissistic personality disorder is
NPD is driven by shame. The narcissist has this massive
internal shame that they're forever trying to hide. That's why
they form this mask of superiority with their false self
(15:19):
we call it because they're trying to bury that true self,
which is weak and wounded and vulnerable, and they crave
the attention and the admiration of other people to maintain
their ego and keep that vulnerability and weakness at bay.
A sociopath and a psychopath, on the other hand, that
(15:39):
it need attention. They regulate their own ego, They regulate
their own emotions so they won't get anxious. They don't
care what people think about them. They will be very impulsive,
very reckless, engaging in behaviors to get what they want
crimes because they don't think about the consequences. It's about
(15:59):
getting what they want and they don't care what other
people think. Whereas a narcissist will experience massive anxiety if
they think that someone is thinking badly of them. That
will create a massive narcissistic injury, and they have a
hairline trigger for criticism, which is very different to the
antisocial personalities.
Speaker 3 (16:22):
Is that not like almost a contradiction though, this idea
that someone who is narcissistic sees themselves in such a
grandiose way, they see themselves as special, but then also
implicitly feel as though they carry this shame.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
How do those things kind of function side by side.
Speaker 4 (16:37):
Well, the dysfunction lies right there, Laura, in that this
mask of grandiosity and superiority and sense of entitlement is
to mask that shame. It's kind of like a shield
of armor that they develop to never be weak and
vulnerable again. And this is why they are devoid of
(17:00):
empathy and remorse, because they are considered weaknesses. So you
have empathy for someone else, you can get hurt. So
when they develop this disorder, whenever that happens, I guess
that empathy switch, so to speak, switches off. That's the
trade off, and humans devoid of empathy in an adult body.
(17:22):
That's a scary thing.
Speaker 3 (17:23):
Yeah, it makes me think because like, and I guess
if for anyone who's ever been in a romantic relationship
with someone who is truly narcissistic, you almost sometimes see
these moments of vulnerability, and so you see that as
your entry point, Like I remember in my relationship it
was very much like he could be this version that
I hated, but then he also had this weakness or
(17:45):
like this vulnerability about him that I was like, if
only we could crack into that. And I think that
that is often when you're in a relationship with someone,
you see those little parts of them, and then you
keep on trying to chip away so that they can
be that person, but they don't have the capacity to.
Speaker 4 (18:00):
Exactly, So those little bread crumbs of that person that
you were seeing, that is what victims cling on to,
victims of narcissistic abuse because it feels better. You know,
we experience what we call cognitive dissonance, where we dismiss
the mountains and mountains of abuse because that feels bad,
(18:23):
and we cling on to these bread crumbs which remind
us of that person, that person that doesn't exist that
we fell in love with, because that feels better. And
our brain, it sounds very strange, but our brain is
wired for safety, not happiness, so it wants to, I guess,
bring us back to a state of equilibrium by getting
(18:45):
rid of all those horrible feelings which comes when there's
conflicting information. I love this person, but they're abusing me,
so it gets rid of the mountains of abusive evidence,
so to speak. And to do that, though, you have
to make the abuse okay, which brings the victims to
(19:06):
engage in coping mechanisms such as minimizing the abuse. They
don't know what they're doing. Maybe I can help them,
you know what, Maybe it was my fault. I haven't
been having enough sex with them lately, so you know,
that's why they went and cheated. And of course, especially
the covert narcissist is going to play the victim all
(19:28):
the time, and they will use their victim hood, which
is kind of what you suggested there, Laura. They'll use
their victimhood to pull your empathy strings because they know
that you have that empathy, and they will use that
empathy as a weapon against you. The other thing that
you have to be mindful of is that people who
(19:49):
love you don't abuse you. Whether there's a percentage of
time that's only ten percent twenty percent where they're abusing you,
that's ten twenty percent too much. It should be zero.
But victims will offset the ten twenty percent whatever it
is of abuse because the eighty percent when they're not
(20:10):
abusing them feels like heaven because it is heaven compared
to a normal relationship. No, but because the abuse has ended.
Speaker 3 (20:20):
No.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
But you just said something that I want to go
back to for a second. You said, our brain is
actually wired more for safety than happiness.
Speaker 4 (20:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:28):
I think that's going to be surprising to a lot
of people. I was surprised by that. I always thought
that we as humans sought out happiness, probably over anything else.
Especially you would think white people might see in a
narcissistic relationship, they're not safe. But those eighty percent moments
of happiness I would have thought is white people stay.
So generally speaking, we're made to seek safety before happiness.
Speaker 4 (20:52):
Well, when you're experiencing trauma in your life, your brain
is going to want to keep your life. So you've
got to survive that trauma. So your brain's number one
job is to keep you alive. It's to keep you safe.
So all of those terrible feelings, the literal chemicals that
pulsate through your body, the cortisole that are pumping when
(21:14):
you are walking on eggshells in that state of fight
or flight, that keeps you safe in the trauma. But
when we're without and we'll get into this latter. But
this chemical cocktail that is associated with the trauma bond,
our brain wants the dopamine back again. It wants to
get rid of all that horrible cortisol it needs. Just
(21:38):
like a heroin addict in cold Turkey, or withdrawal from
the drug craves another hip of the drug because they
love the drug. No, because they want the withdrawal to end.
So this is the same principle where our brain wants
to get rid of that horrible withdrawal from that which
we've become addicted to without knowing, and get rid of
(22:01):
those horrible withdrawal symptoms.
Speaker 3 (22:03):
You also said often the reason why you get so
hawked in these relationships is because they're so magical at
the start.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
They really are. They're unbelievably perfect, too good to be true.
Speaker 3 (22:13):
Some may say, yeah, And the chemistry is there, and
this feeling of truly fighting your soulmate, this like unbelievable
match which comes about. And then it's this process where
they start behaving in a way where you're like, I
don't even know who that person is. I can't even
recognize that person, and so you're constantly trying to get
back to what you originally had.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
But you said that that's not real.
Speaker 3 (22:35):
How do you almost recognize or come to terms with
the fact that that's not real. Because it feels so
real and for such a long period, it can be
very very real. And I know that that process and
that length of time can be different for all different people.
Speaker 4 (22:49):
Yeah, it is very real. For each victim. This was
a real relationship. You don't know that it's one sided
until you have your life moment, and even then it
takes time and lots of support. I think that that
realization that this person doesn't love you, because people who
(23:11):
love you don't do what they did to you. They
don't abuse you in such a horrific, callous way. But
it is the most painful realization. You feel like you
lost your yourself. You were used, you were conned by
this person, and it takes a lot of time to
(23:32):
really come to terms with the fact that this person
was duping you. But with lots of support and seeing
it in front of you, I get people to journal
the abuse so they can see what this person did
to them. You can see that someone who loves you well.
Number One, the grand your gestures in the beginning that's
(23:53):
not normal. So that's that's a red flag if you
experience those fireworks, you know in the beginning. I'm not
to say that it doesn't happen once every blue moon,
but for the most part, that's not normal to become
enmeshed with someone that quickly and experience that soul made effect.
And that's because it's manufactured. So you fall in love
(24:17):
with that illusion of that person. But your biggest clue
when you have that light bulb moment that it wasn't
real is because someone who is capable of loving you
with that intensity does not suddenly rip the carpet out
from underneath your feet and do a complete shape shift.
(24:38):
People who love you do not do that. And this
is where you experience such confusion, because your prince or
your princess is gone and you don't know why and
you want them back.
Speaker 2 (24:53):
Is a narcissist actually capable of love?
Speaker 4 (24:56):
Okay? I get asked that a lot, And what my
step ended answer to that is it depends what your
version of love is. You know, my version of love,
which I'm assuming would be the same as yours, is
someone who loves you, unconditionally, supports you, has compassion, empathy
(25:16):
does not intentionally try to make you feel insecure. You know,
we all have isolated incidents where we can snap at someone,
we might have a bit of a bad day. But
these are on going, consistent patterns of behavior over time,
which therefore forms their personality. So they know the value
(25:38):
that everyone else like you and I place on that word,
So they throw the word around a lot, but it
doesn't it's not backed up with action. So if you
look at what they do where they flip and they
flop and they go like a doctor jerkline, mister Hyde,
that's not what love looks like. That's what manipulation looks like.
(25:58):
So to answer, and I would say, no, love is
just a word they use because they know the value
that other people place on it, and they use it
to manipulate people.
Speaker 1 (26:09):
Do you find a real recurrent pattern with people once
they've dated a narcissist and then they're trying to move
on that they either want to constantly be picking fights
or having this tumultuous relationship moving forward because that's what
they used to and that's what they need, or that
people are just avert to even going into a new relationship.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
What are your patients like.
Speaker 1 (26:29):
In terms of their recovery from a narcissist in a
romantic relationship.
Speaker 4 (26:33):
Yeah, both, britt. Many people who haven't got the support
or haven't really understood narcissistic abuse will find themselves straight
back in another narcissistic relationship. And if you think about it,
it kind of makes sense because, as you know, at
the end of these relationships, you are rock bottom, there's
(26:53):
no closure, you're blamed for the abuse, you're an empty shell,
you're lost, And here is another narcissist sensing your core
wounds and they make you feel better. They're loving you
that I would never do that to you, So they're
healing the wound from the last narcissist. And of course
(27:16):
you haven't had this support around to understand narcissistic abuse
and what that love bombing actually is. And you're not
looking out for red flags. You just want to feel better.
But you were betrayed at a soul level by someone
you loved so much. How can you go on and
(27:37):
trust someone else again? And that's why it's so incredibly
important to get the right support, because you are going
to meet another narcissist. They are everywhere. It's a pandemic
out there.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
We don't have to worry about COVID. We got to
worry about narcissism.
Speaker 4 (27:55):
COVID's over. That NPD pandemic has begun, so they are
ouver you are going to meet another one. But as
your healing journey progresses and your boundaries are up here
and they become rock solid, and you do not override
your instincts. You trust your gut when you see a
red flag, remembering you're not going to pick it immediately.
(28:17):
Most of the time, when you see that red flag,
it will be a deal breaker and you will get
your Nike shoes on. That's the difference, because you've got
to expect to meet another one. The difference will be
not it's not a matter of trusting others, you'll trust yourself.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
I think that this is a fear right.
Speaker 3 (28:35):
People often think, oh, they're going to go into the
next relationship and they're going to be better. They're going
to go in the next relationship and they'll make that
person happy and they'll live happily ever after.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
And why couldn't have been with me?
Speaker 4 (28:45):
It is probably the one that well, one of the
one things I hear from everyone. You think about it,
you've been abused, you've been given no closure. You're feeling insane,
You're a shell of yourself. You're most probably still addicted
trauma bond to your abuser, and you're seeing them immediately
discarding you, or if you've managed to escape, not looking back,
(29:08):
like you're just something on the bottom of their shoe
and here they are with the next soul mate. You've
been blamed for the abuse, You've developed some coping mechanisms
to a portion, blame to yourself, not forgetting. You reacted
in ways that you're not proud of in the reactive abuse.
What if this person's not like you? What if the
(29:30):
next target is not crazy like in a vert commas
you are, You've been conditioned to feel that way. What
if they give that person that love bombed you. What
if that person remains for the whole time and this
new target is not as messed up as I am.
Every victim thinks this way. But as sure as the
(29:52):
sun comes up tomorrow, the love bombing must finish, and
they will go through exactly the same side, because that
over the top love bombing period is not sustainable. It's
got to be about them. And as soon as they
know that their new victim is hooked and they're not
going anywhere. That's when they will have the carpet pulled
(30:17):
and they will be struggling to get their soul mate back,
so they never ever change for the next person. But
this is what also the narcissist thrives on is it's
not just schmorgasball. They've got your pain. They think you're pathetic,
you're so weak because you're crying and you deserved what
you've got anyway, and they're getting the new target is
(30:40):
reflecting back to them. How amazing that because that's what
they're perceiving of the narcissist who is love bombing them.
So they've got your negative supply, they've got the new
target's positive supply. And here they are on this pedestal
just thinking that they're eating a bit.
Speaker 3 (30:58):
How can you talk look us through what a trauma
bond is because this is so instrumental as to why
people stay in narcissistic relationships. And it's almost like all
of their friends and family around them may recognize how
toxic that relationship is, but you become almost addicted to
the volatility, the highs and lows of the relationship.
Speaker 4 (31:18):
Yeah, you do become addicted. Trauma bonding is essentially an addiction.
So I'm just going to got touched very briefly on
what happened to the victims in Stockholm, because this just
solidifies what happens for narcissistic abuse victims. So trauma bonding
is another word for Stockholm syndrome. So a bank was
(31:38):
held up, I think going back to something like nineteen
seventy six in Stockholm, Sweden. Now the terrorists talk I
think four hostages. They kept them for like four or
five days. What happened there was they were isolated from
their loved ones, from the community for four or five
days and nights. They were terrorized. They were told that
(32:00):
they were going to die. But as the terrorsts spent
more time with the victims, the victims started to humanize them.
They were making them comfortable, they were getting them cups
of tea, they were talking about their own lives. In
other words, the victims started to humanize the terrorists. They've
just had a bad past, they're not really bad people.
(32:20):
What was actually happening here was that the terrorists had
put them in fear for their life, but getting them
isolated on their own and all of the strategies they used,
especially ending the terror and making them feel better, which
felt like heaven, you can imagine to these victims. It
(32:42):
created this very very powerful trauma bond where the victims
were experiencing rock bottom lows followed by major, major highs
which replaced the rock bottom lows. So there was this
chemical cocktail going on in their bodies. In the end,
it was just perceived highs where there was nothing really
(33:04):
nice going on. It was just that the abuse had ended.
Now this roller coaster of emotions where the abuser abuses
you and then becomes the only one to be able
to heal the wounds they created, which is your withdrawal.
Essentially the pain of not having that roller coaster in
your life. Your abuser becomes the only one who can
(33:24):
heal the wound. So when you come out or you
think of being without your abuser, you're essentially flatline. What
am I if I haven't got you know that roller
coaster in my life? Again, it's the equivalent of the
heroinattic having their drugs flushed away, and the victim literally
(33:45):
craves their abuse or just a glimpse of them, just
to unblock them because they love them no, because they
want that horrible anxiety that builds and builds and builds
and builds until they unblock and then they experience relief
from the withdrawal. So that's where this very powerful attachment forms.
(34:09):
That the victims don't understand them themselves, let alone someone
outside of the relationship, because it defies logic that you
on a logical level, because this has got nothing to
do with a lack of intelligence or weakness, and it's
got everything to do with the insidious nature of their
abuse and creating this addiction under like an iceberg under
(34:32):
the level of awareness. So it's like someone if you
can imagine, in your sleep, someone comes and puts heroin
in your body every night. You don't know it's happening,
and all of a sudden, one day, you know, a
few weeks you're craving heroin. You'll literally crawl along on
your hands and knees just for a whiff of it
to end the withdrawal. This is what's happening when you're
(34:54):
craving your abuser and you think you love them. You
don't love them because love feels good. It's just that
it feels so painful to be without them. That's not love,
that's addiction.
Speaker 3 (35:06):
I recognize this because I even remember I remember going
through one of our mini toxic lows and I thought
the relationship was going to end, and I remember pulling
over the side of the road having a full blown
panic attack.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
Yeah, because of where we were at.
Speaker 3 (35:18):
And I've never experienced that in another relationship, and I
could never imagine the experience in that in my now relationships.
Speaker 2 (35:24):
But that became so normal.
Speaker 3 (35:26):
It became so normal to have this like unbelievable anxiety
around what if they're going to leave?
Speaker 4 (35:32):
It is absolutely the same thing. And there was actually
studies where people that were in that heist and other
kidnapping scenarios went out to seek adrenaline seeking activities because
they without this walking on eggshells and this rollercoaster of
you know, being in a constant state of fight or flight,
(35:53):
there was just emptiness. They didn't know how to cope,
how to survive.
Speaker 1 (35:59):
I remember my relationship ended, it was two years, and
there's so much went on about that. We've spoken about
it a lot on the podcast, but there's a lot
of stuff that happened that I will never speak about
because it was just too intense and too bad. But
I remember when it all came out. I'm embarrassed and
ashamed to say it. But if it wasn't as bad
as it was, if this one extra thing hadn't happened,
(36:20):
I would have gone back one hundred percent knowing the
abuse that I had put up with. I remember thinking,
if only I didn't find that part out, because I
probably could have accepted the rest of it.
Speaker 2 (36:30):
Like in my head, it wasn't as bad.
Speaker 1 (36:32):
And I look back now in hindsight and I'm like,
oh my god.
Speaker 4 (36:35):
Addictions are not rational, are they. The gambling addict, for instance,
who knows they lost their house and their family rationalizes
a way, how that wasn't as bad as it really was,
to get the dopamine back again, to get another fixed.
So what happened to you, Brett, and to every victim,
is that, over the course of time, with the insidious
(36:59):
of erosion away that you didn't know was happening of
your boundaries and your sense of self, you developed a
threshold for abuse that was sky high, and a threshold
for respect that was on the floor. And you can't
fall off the floor. That's as low as you can go.
And that example that you gave is so normal and
(37:21):
so common breadth. And I hear people saying to me,
you know, they just told me about these absolutely hideous
betrayals and domestic violence, and they say to me, yeah,
but he didn't do this or she didn't do this,
And I'm like, you're waiting for that to be the
defining moment. I don't say that because I get it,
(37:43):
I understand it.
Speaker 1 (37:44):
No, But I remember saying he loved me. He loved
me still to other people, it's like he just loved
me differently, like he just loved those other people as well.
But I still was justifying. I was like, it was real.
It's just he loves differently.
Speaker 4 (37:58):
That's your brain minimizing the abuse, rationalizing in a way.
That's your cognitive dissonance kicking in to make the abuse
not as bad as it is. Remember us saying earlier
that our brain dismisses all of the abuse, and therefore
we have to make the abuse not as bad as
it is, because the thought of being without that is
(38:19):
just overwhelming.
Speaker 3 (38:20):
Something you said about the erosion of boundaries over time
and your self respect being so far down on the
floor that there's nowhere else to go. I think for
anyone who's been in a narcissistic relationship, they will really
identify with that because it's almost like you get to
a point where you're like.
Speaker 2 (38:37):
How am I tolerating this?
Speaker 3 (38:38):
I never would have tolerated this before, but it becomes
so normal that you will tolerate even worse. If you
are somebody who's in a narcisstic relationship, what are your options?
Speaker 2 (38:48):
Like, what do you do?
Speaker 3 (38:49):
Is there ever going to be something that you can
do to get that person to change, or is your
only option to walk away?
Speaker 4 (38:56):
Your only option is to walk away unequivocally, run. Run,
and those Nike shoes or whatever the latest brand is.
You have no sponsors, get those running shoes on. Well
maybe they will now, who knows. Get those running shoes
on and leave. I say this over and over again
in fake Love. Your job is not to fix your
(39:18):
abuser and learn to risk manage their abuse. Your job
is to leave. You can reevaluate whether you think they're
a narcissist or not from a distance where you'll have
more perspective. But just quickly, I wanted to just touch
on reactive abuse, because this is what every victim engages in,
(39:39):
and it's another thing that makes them feel responsible for
the abuse. Maybe they deserved it. They're getting told by
the actual abuse or the actual narcissist, that they're a narcissist,
which is even more confusing. They start to buy into
it because they did act crazy at times, they did
act volatile, and guys, this, I just want all your
(40:01):
listeners to know that whatever you did, this is normal.
It's irrational. Those crazy behaviors we go through when we're
being provoked until we finally reach that threshold, which is
where the narcissist wants you to be. They manipulate you
to engage in that reactive abuse. These volatile behaviors that
(40:24):
you feel so remorseful about are normal. Irrational, but normal
given the context of your abuse and the difference between
you reacting to the abuse and the abuser abusing you,
which can be very hard for outsiders to understand, let
alone the victim when the outcome is the same. The
(40:44):
difference is in the motivation, where the narcissist is intentionally
baiting you, provoking you until you finally erupt in that
isolated incident, some behavior that's so far removed from your character,
and then they go gotcha, you're the abuser, then I
might video and get the camera out, put it on TikTok,
(41:07):
and then there'll be a trial by TikTok for you.
Speaker 3 (41:09):
How powerful is silence when dealing with a narcissist? How
powerful is just shutting down and not engaging Because if
this idea of baiting and trying to get a reaction
is the sole motivator, what happens when you stop.
Speaker 4 (41:22):
Silence is everything. But it's only going to be beneficial
to you, especially in the intimate relationship. If you get away,
you've got to get out of the environment that's making
you sick, so to speak. But we say silence is
golden combined with no contact minimal contact gray rock. If
(41:42):
it's your partner, is the parent of your child, or
it's someone you work with, but the narcissist does everything
in their power to get you to react. They rely
on what we call narcissistic supply. That's their oxygen that
tells them the mask of grandiosity that they wear is real.
So that's why they will fly into these narcissistic rages
(42:04):
if they even perceive criticism, because what you're telling them
when you want to just have a discussion with them
about their behavior, or talk about your feelings or something
they've done. What you're telling them is that mask isn't real.
I've seen behind you. You're telling them they're flawed. So
you're creating a narcissistic injury. The narcissists will want you
(42:27):
punish you to heal that narcissistic injury. So if you
don't react, which it means you're rendering them insignificant in
your life. That is, that's like throwing acid in the
face of the narcissists, curiating, yeah, because they're losing control
of you. So a very important acronym that I talk
(42:49):
about with my beautiful counseling clients is an acronym that
we call jade, and I also talk a lot about
this in Fake Club. Probably the most important one you
need to know Jade. Everything the narcissist does and says
is to get you to jade with them, to justify, argue, defend,
(43:10):
and it's to ease, explain, and give them your emotions.
Now when they're they're gas lighting you, telling you that
the sky's purple with such conviction, and you're trying to
get up the screenshots to go no, it's not it's blue.
They already know you're right. They want you to go
crazy trying to prove it. And your reactions are their oxygen.
(43:34):
So when you cut them off from your reactions, that's
the worst thing that you can do to them. That's
not the goal. The goal is not to get revenge
or punishment with the narcis when you do go no contact.
The goal is to hear you try and get revenge,
you play their game and they're still inside your head.
You can't. You can't get revenge against a narcissist because
(43:56):
they don't have the same emotions as you do.
Speaker 1 (43:58):
So fascinating and I think something that most of us
in our lifetime will come across. We're going to deal
in some capacity, whether it's in a romantic relationship, a
work relationship, or family, a parent or a brother or sister.
Speaker 2 (44:10):
And we definitely if.
Speaker 1 (44:11):
You'd come back, nov we want to continue this narcissistic
chat with families and parents at a later date. Absolutely,
But thank you so much. Like it's so fascinating to us.
And every time doesn't matter how much you read, every
time we learn something else.
Speaker 3 (44:27):
Yeah, Also, every time I ever sit down and have
these conversations about it. It just and I'm sure you've
been seeing me shaking my head through this whole thing.
It's just this constant reminder. And I know, like Britta
and I have said it, like I was absolutely fucking
crazy in my relationship. I was an insane person. I
was insane.
Speaker 4 (44:47):
You feel insane. That is the job of the narcissist
to make you literally feel insane. Everyone feels the same
way because the abuse is just so covid and insidious,
and on top of that, everyone else is thinking they're
(45:07):
this great person because they're wearing the mask for everyone else.
And you're being gaslighted, which means your reality is being
distorted over time, so you do not trust what comes
out of your mouth. You don't trust what you hear
or see, so you feel insane. That's the end result
of every narcissistic abuse relationship.
Speaker 1 (45:30):
I don't know if you're the same, but I'm assuming,
but it's the validation as well. As the years go past,
sometimes I think back to myself and I was like,
was it that bad?
Speaker 2 (45:37):
Was he that bad?
Speaker 1 (45:38):
And then I have these conversations again and I'm like, fuck, yup, yep,
no he was.
Speaker 4 (45:42):
Yeah, that's why I get victims to write it down
so it's tangible, and when they're having a craving literally
they're feeling like they're going to explode unless they unblock
them and look at their new targets Instagram and just
get a little sneak peek at what they're doing, see
if they're happy. It's normal. It's irrational because we ignore
(46:05):
all the abuse, but it's normal in the context of
your abuse and the powerful addiction, the powerful trauma bond.
But you feel crazy and you feel powerless to stop it.
Speaker 2 (46:18):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (46:19):
I really do think that anybody who has experienced this
type of relationship would absolutely relate to everything that you're saying.
And also hopefully for somebody who may be dating a
nassist and is in the throes of the confusing period
when that relationship takes a shift, might be able to
recognize what it is and what's happening to them.
Speaker 4 (46:38):
That's my hope in my book is that you will
recognize yourself, you will feel validated, and you will get
out this was I don't care what you did, It
was not your fault. There were very specific strategies set
up to make you feel the way you feel but
(46:59):
whilst the use was not your fault, the healing is
going to be on you. Don't wait to change them.
I don't care. I mean it's awful, sounds awful to
say that, but someone who's been abused as a child,
the last thing they would think of is abusing someone else.
So if you're being abused in that person is using
(47:21):
their abuse to abuse you because you know they had
it tough, that is not an excuse. You're having your
empathy used against you. Get out regardless and heal yourself
and don't go to counseling with them. These are not
relationship issues. They are issues of abuse.
Speaker 1 (47:40):
Put your nikes on, do them up, run away, don't
look back exactly.
Speaker 2 (47:43):
Thanks so much and nov.
Speaker 4 (47:44):
My absolute pleasure. I'll see you on the next one.
Speaker 3 (47:48):
Guys, we hope that you got so much out of
that chat in terms of your romantic relationships and navigating
romantic relationships with a narcisses. Like we said in the beginning,
we are going to do part two on this where
we're going to be looking at what it is like
navigating a relationship with a narcissis when that narcissist might
be your mom or your dad, or someone in your
immediate family who you can't necessarily just walk away from.
Speaker 1 (48:10):
If you did get something from this episode, or you
know someone in your life that could benefit from this,
because chances are you probably do well statistics that you
probably do. Share this with them, point it in their direction,
share it on your socials. It also helps us grow,
which is really important for us to continue to bring
you these episodes and getting the most amazing guests view.
And on that note, don't forget tell your mum, te
(48:31):
your dad, tell you dog, tell your friends, and share
the love because we love love
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