How Do You Feel When You Look In The Mirror? Disordered Eating with Dr Kieran Kennedy

Disordered eating is something that so many people, especially women, have experienced. Sometimes this is so normalised by society that we don’t even realise our approach to food is disordered or could be defined as such. 

We’re joined by psychiatrist Dr. Kieran Kennedy. Kieran is consultant psychiatrist specialising in the diagnosis, support and treatment of a range of eating disorders and body image struggles; everything from binge eating disorder, bulimia nervosa, body dysmorphia and the intersection between fitness, appearance pressures & mental health.

Today we speak about:

• How you may have disordered eating without even realising it
• Women identify more with disordered eating but rates of men and all genders are increasing - ‘muscle dysmorphia’
• The messaging around weight and eating is deeply ingrained in our culture
• ‘Health and fitness’ may be disordered eating in a different costume
• Our relationship with food can impact our social and romantic lives
• Whether you can comment on someone’s body 
• Body image in the ‘ozempic era’
• The link between disordered eating and depression, OCD, anxiety and ADHD
• Binge eating disorder is by far the most common eating disorder
• How we can recognise concerning body image thoughts in loved ones and kids

 

If you’d like to check out Dr Kieran Kennedy’s Instagram 

You can access Dr Kennedy’s clinical practice here 

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See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
This episode was recorded on Cameragle Land. Hi guys, and
welcome back to another episode of Life Uncut. I'm Laura,
I'm Brittany. Today's episode is one that well, firstly, we
needed to get an expert in for, but it's also

(00:20):
one that's been requested so many times over the years,
and I honestly can't believe it's taken us this long
to do a deep dive into this. We're going to
be talking about disordered eating and eating disorders. I know
that this is an episode that's going to be very
close to home for a lot of people. But I
think one of the things that's so interesting about this
conversation is that there is such a huge spectrum when

(00:41):
it comes to disordered eating things that we have completely
okayed across society where we say, oh, like, if you're
doing it for fitness or you're doing for health reasons,
then that's all right.

Speaker 2 (00:51):
We have a lot of ways to justify it to ourselves.

Speaker 3 (00:53):
Well, I think it'd be surprising to a lot of
people and maybe after this episode they even realize what
disordered eating is and how affects their life without them
even knowing totally.

Speaker 1 (01:02):
And you know, I think sometimes I mean, there's obviously
the psychiatric side of it, which we will get into,
and we are not qualified to speak on that, hence
why we have someone extremely qualified in the room.

Speaker 2 (01:12):
But then there's also the social side of it.

Speaker 1 (01:14):
We've all grown up with the magazines with Heroin Chic,
We've all grown up with seeing the examples of what
a traditional beauty looks like, and now we've kind of
given the example of what health looks like. And sometimes
I do think it is disordered eating dressed up as
a health and that's what we're being sold. But I'd
love to introduce you guys to doctor Kieran Kennedy. If
you have listened to the cloud series that producer Keisha

(01:37):
created around ADHD and late age diagnosis, it is fantastic.
If you haven't listened to it yet, and if you
have listened to it, you will know who Kieran is
because he features across that series so much. Doctor Kennedy
he specializes in ADHD and through his psychiatric training, Kieran
trained in supporting severe level eating disorders in hospital settings.

(01:57):
He's a consultant psychiatrist specializing in the diagnosis, support and
treatment of a range of eating disorders and body image struggles,
everything from binge eating disorders, bolimia nevosa, body dysmorphia, and
also exactly what we were talking about, that intersection between fitness,
appearance pressures, and mental health for both men and women.

Speaker 2 (02:15):
Kieran, Welcome to the pod.

Speaker 4 (02:17):
Oh that was quite there, all out there. I'm like,
I do all of that?

Speaker 2 (02:22):
What you actually did you do more than that?

Speaker 1 (02:26):
We also, I mean, it's funny because were speak about
it earlier when we said that we were going to have
this discussion and Chich put it into our discussion group
that you were coming on. Someone made the comment around
but why would you get a man on when this
predominantly affects women? And so we talked about like, okay,
well we've got to prove, like you are so incredibly
qualified to speak on this topic. But I mean, even

(02:46):
as an interesting place to start, why is it that
women are so predominantly affected by this?

Speaker 4 (02:51):
Yeah?

Speaker 5 (02:51):
Well, and I mean, thank you so much for having
me guys. You know, it's just so so great to
team up with you guys as always, But this is
just such an important conversation and I think, as you say,
women are going to be predominantly kind of affected here,
and we know that they are compared to men. I
think that has a lot to do with those traditional

(03:13):
societal pressures, and that's what we know kind of can
really kind of hotwire this for women and girls in particular,
all of those pressures around body image, weight, appearance, beauty,
all of these standards that have been funneled and pushed
along all of these decades in terms of that being
around weight and parents, and second to that what we

(03:35):
eat as well. You know, I think we're going to
touch on the fact that, especially in twenty twenty five,
men and people of all genders now are increasingly sort
of catching up.

Speaker 4 (03:45):
In terms of struggles with body image and eating.

Speaker 5 (03:47):
But traditionally this has really been a place where women
in particular have had the brunt of those pressures.

Speaker 3 (03:53):
It's crazy, because I don't think I know a woman
who hasn't had an issue with their body or disliked
their body, or probably don't think about their body at
least once a day in some capacity. The way they look,
or can they wear something, or did they eat well
today or could they have eaten better?

Speaker 6 (04:08):
Or what ca they could change in their life? Do
I need to go on you know, a web shread,
which is all the things you know. I can't talk.
I went on a wed tread.

Speaker 3 (04:15):
But why we so conditioned to do that? And we
are going to get into that. But I think let's
talk about how you found yourself in this space of
eating disorders and disorder eating.

Speaker 4 (04:24):
Yeah, a bit of an interesting one. Never it' slight curveball.

Speaker 5 (04:28):
But obviously my medical and then psychiatric training, as Laura said,
that moved through a period where I really focused on
work in hospital medical settings, supporting people with severe and
high end eating disorders, supporting them when medically they needed
a safe space to be refed basically and supported medically.

Speaker 4 (04:48):
So that really sparked an interest.

Speaker 5 (04:50):
But then at that same time and in the years before,
I'd also been moving through work and competitions when it
came to bodybuilding and also a bit of fitness modeling.

Speaker 3 (04:59):
Here, if you guys are watching this visually on YouTube now,
Kieran has very big biceps.

Speaker 6 (05:04):
You can tell he used to be a bodybuilder.

Speaker 4 (05:06):
They're just inflated.

Speaker 1 (05:08):
I did like some press, you did some part among
kind of just upper bodies.

Speaker 2 (05:12):
So you were a bodybuilder, yeah.

Speaker 5 (05:14):
And so I obviously had that real passion there and
then a passion for psychiatry, and it was super interesting
how I just have more and more guys in the
gym were at competitions even coming up knowing that I
was working in mental health and asking me questions around
body image and elements of eating and is this disordered eating?
And it was that that kind of really spurred me

(05:35):
to be working in the area with men and then
through into a real interest for supporting women when it
comes to appearance and body image pressures too.

Speaker 1 (05:44):
How does it get defined? I mean in terms of
like a clinical definition. We've kind of established that so
many people have disordered eating, but when does it cross
the line between being like, okay, well that's just something
that most people experience verse being an eating disorder, Like
how do you differentiate between to yeah?

Speaker 4 (06:01):
Really tricky, you know.

Speaker 5 (06:02):
And I think we have the DSM, for example, our
Diagnostic Manual for Psychiatry, and this is a group of
people in America who have decided where certain cutoffs life
are symptoms and what isn't isn't a disorder, which we
won't go down that rabbit.

Speaker 4 (06:16):
Hole because there's a whole argument.

Speaker 5 (06:17):
Against that, but I think For me, it's around appearance
and eating related struggles coming to a point in our
lives where they start to really impact how we function
in our work and our social lives and our relationships,
and they start to really negatively impact not only elements
of our mental health, like significant distress. We're thinking about

(06:38):
this all the time. It's starting to become a driving
force for our life, but also, especially with eating disorders,
our physical health sometimes as well. So I think when
it crosses a line to becoming something that is starting
to really take up a huge chunk of our internal
and external life and having consistent negative effects on our
life and what we want to be doing and achieving,

(07:00):
that's where for me it becomes something we need to
get support worth.

Speaker 3 (07:04):
Do you think, in your professional opinion, we are wired
to be susceptible to eating disorders or do you think
that it's just a product of the world we live
in in the media that we are bombarded with every
single day.

Speaker 5 (07:14):
Yeah, it's you know, the classic psychiatrist, I guess it's
like chicken or the egg. Yeah, it's complicated and it's
super complex. We know that the societal cultural aspect is
a huge part of it. You know Western cultures, industrialized countries,
rates of these more traditional eating disorders like anorexia, bulimia,
binge eating disorder are significantly higher in these countries where

(07:37):
those cultural societal pressures around weight and appearance and beauty standards,
especially for women, are pushed predominantly. But interestingly, we also
know that elements of disordered eating and body image struggles
have been present across society for centuries now, and they
exist in other countries where those more traditional weight based
elements of pressures aren't there as well. We know for

(08:00):
things like anixia and bolimia there's also a genetic component,
So there is some level here of eating disorders running
within families, and there's a genetic biological component there that
we're not quite sure the exact reason why.

Speaker 4 (08:15):
So it's a bit of a mixture of sort.

Speaker 5 (08:17):
Of biology and our genes, but also these pressures that
kind of supercharge the risk that someone might have for
an eating disorder.

Speaker 1 (08:25):
I can imagine it makes it almost impossible for some
people one to seek help or two to actually conduct diagnosis,
because when you say it, disorder, eating crosses into an
eating disorder when it's manifesting someone's entire brain space, you know,
when it's taking over all aspects of their life. But
I would dare say that often it's family members or
people close to that person who identifies, hey, this is
a problem. The person might individually realize it's a problem,

(08:47):
but not actually want to do anything about it. They're
not talking about it with their friends and not talking
about it with their parents, They're not talking about it
to people around them. But it's when you say, she's
only eaten a tomato today, like she's not, you know, like,
and you notice in your friends, actually they've lost heaps
of weight and they're not necessarily eating or behaving normally
around food. But sometimes it's our friends who witness it

(09:08):
rather than us being able to admit it ourselves.

Speaker 5 (09:10):
Definitely, and it's really insidious kind of how it happens
because a lot of eating disorder and body imidge struggles
they are actually socially reinforced. And so the person sitting
with a little bit of a sense of I'm not
sure if this is something that is serving me, or
I feel a little bit like we're starting to go
down the pathway maybe I shouldn't be. The tricky thing

(09:33):
is that in society. They're often also reenforced in a
way by all these deardments of social media. People often
not with any undue d negative impact, but making comments
on my god, you look great, you've lost so much weight,
or for guys, oh my god, you're looking jacked, or
look how lean you are, and so all of these

(09:53):
little reinforces can make it really hard to identify that
something has become a problem. So when you're in the
eye of the storm, like any mental health condition, it's
really really hard to kind of see that something's impacting you.

Speaker 1 (10:07):
I remember being in my twenties and working in office
space and I worked with this young girls a bit
younger than me, and one of our bosses had made
a comment about her weight. And she was just a
normal sized girl, I mean, whatever classifies as normal, but
she was probably what size fourteen And one of our
bosses made a comment about her weight, and she didn't
say anything, but she was instantly you could tell she

(10:29):
was very triggered.

Speaker 2 (10:29):
And at the time I.

Speaker 6 (10:31):
Was just what do you mean said something about the
negative about her weight?

Speaker 2 (10:34):
Not like no weight all, no, no, no, it was
like negative. It was like made a joke.

Speaker 1 (10:37):
When we're out of dinner and now at my age
and also like am my understanding? I would have said
something back, but at that age I was like twenty
three myself, and I also was like, don't want to
lose my job. You know, I'm never going to stand
up to the six year old ceover company. And you
could tell it like something in her kind of snapped.
And anyway, from there, she would come to work and
she would have like a canachuna or a tomato, and
she started to lose weight really dramatically, reallydically, but everyone

(11:01):
was telling her how amazing she looked. She would end
up going overseas and I remember going over to visit
her and I got there and I was like, it
took my breath away how much weight she had lost,
and it was I really saw the pattern of how
the positive reinforcement had almost like put her on this
trajectory of being able to persevere, and it took a
lot of rewiring for her to get well again, but

(11:22):
she definitely went down that track, and it was so
frightening to see how quickly it happens.

Speaker 5 (11:27):
Because this absolutely isn't to demonize goals that someone might
have in terms of their fitness or appearance or weight.
But I think that's so important as well, because with
eating disorders and body image related disorders, we can start
on this kind of pathway for whatever reason. Obviously in
this case not okay in terms of how that was triggered,

(11:50):
but these kind of thoughts, habits, intrusive cognitions or behaviors,
they can very easily kind of get locked into a
cycle where we can really start to lose control with it.
And that's also where I think a lot of the
eating disorder side starts to creep in, is when we're
actually losing a sense of control around how and where

(12:10):
and why this happens.

Speaker 3 (12:12):
Is an eating disorder classified as an addiction? I know
that's an unusual question, but I'm assuming recovering from an
eating disorder is hugely.

Speaker 5 (12:20):
Mental, definitely, And you know it's not classed in the
same category in terms of addictions or addictive disorders, but
we know there are significant similarities even neurologically in terms
of areas of the brain getting these dopamine hits and reinforces,
and a lot of patients that I see for things
like binge eating disorder especially, it's often tied to a

(12:43):
period of significant.

Speaker 4 (12:44):
Stress or low mood, or when.

Speaker 5 (12:46):
We've had something happen in our lives that's really really difficult.

Speaker 4 (12:50):
And in this.

Speaker 5 (12:51):
Roundabout way, the eating disorder provides some sense of reinforcement
because it offers a sense of control and stability. If
I can't control anything else in my life right now,
I can control what I'm eating, what's going into my body,
what then happens after that. And also things like purging
as well can really start to lock them because we

(13:13):
know that there is a real reinforcing and an aroundabout
kind of maladaptive way comfort sometimes that can come with
these behaviors happening.

Speaker 4 (13:22):
So it is really similar in some ways.

Speaker 1 (13:24):
And there's so many different types of eating disorders as well,
which I think it's tricky to cover everything with the
one brush.

Speaker 2 (13:30):
They're different triggers.

Speaker 1 (13:31):
That would mean, okay, well, this person's more inclined to
become atorexic, this person's more inclined at risk of developing bulimia,
and what does that look like?

Speaker 5 (13:39):
Yeah, I mean, I think the key thing to know
is that there are some baseline risks genetically and or
otherwise for eating disorders on the whole, and people are
often kind of surprised and quite shocked to hear that
it's really common across someone's life for them to move
through different diagnoses of eating disorders. If someone moves through
a period of anorexy nevosa, it is incredibly common for

(14:02):
them to also then at times move through periods of
bulimia or binge eating disorder or other body image and
eating disorder struggles. So there's sort of some I guess
foundational links to all of these conditions, but in my mind,
the psychological and kind of background reasons that trigger specific
behaviors or pathways that might go down to the key.

(14:24):
So if someone might have that foundational risk for an
eating disorder, but they grew up in a home where
that pressure around weight or even for example a parent
figure of being very kind of focused on eating very
quote unquote clean foods or small amount of foods, or
monitoring their own weight, that might be a potential pathway

(14:46):
where risk for anarexy in nevosa in particular is increased.
So I think the history that someone goes through in
terms of their family, traumatic events, comments that a boss
or a past partner or someone makes it can sort
of trigger us down these different pathways for struggling.

Speaker 3 (15:02):
What is some I mean, I want to say one,
but what are some common misconceptions around eating disorders? I
know one of them, and I'd love you to expand
on it a little bit is that you don't necessarily
have to look unwell to have an eating disorder.

Speaker 6 (15:13):
Like, when we use the term eating disorder.

Speaker 3 (15:14):
We associate it with like really really malnourished and skinny
and hospitalized to be fed. What are some of the
misconceptions and like, why do you not necessarily have to
look unwell?

Speaker 5 (15:24):
Yeah, that's like such a perfect one to start with,
because I think when we think eating disorder or we
hear that term, we still as a society, as a culture,
are stuck in that image of anorexia and evosa. You know,
someone who's really really skinny or thin. But that's not
what the majority of eating disorders look like at all.

(15:45):
So I think that's key because eating disorders come in
all types, all flavors, and they are still significantly impacting
people who on the outside you may not look at
that person and think this person is really struggling with
an eating disorders. I think the other big one that
I want to push here is that eating disorders do
predominantly impact women and girls still absolutely, but we are

(16:08):
also now seeing eating disorders and body imag issues really
coming through for people identifying as non binary or people
of all genders, all ages. Men now as well and
young boys are becoming more and more pulled into this
concept of muscle dysmorphia, for example. So it's again a

(16:29):
sense that eating disorders aren't just something that affects wealthier
women and Western societies who are too thin.

Speaker 3 (16:38):
I would almost think, and go as far as to
say that it's always been there within men, like it's
always been an issue.

Speaker 6 (16:44):
It's just that men never.

Speaker 3 (16:45):
Had a platform or felt comfortable to open up about
it and say, hey, you know what, like we have
it too. And I say that because I think back
to a lot of men in my life, even in
the last ten years. I know so many men that
have had issues with eating and their body and body
dysmorphia and people that you would never think, people that
feel insignificant.

Speaker 6 (17:02):
I still hear people talk about it at the gym.

Speaker 3 (17:04):
Now in the saunas like bro guys, you know, like big,
like it's everywhere, And I think it always has been.
I think men just haven't ever felt comfortable or had
the space.

Speaker 1 (17:14):
I think that disordered eating has evolved. You know, we
used to know that it was very much like like
we mentioned this heroin chic kind of look once one
a time. But now we're really especially across social media,
talking about the fitness industry and counting macros and counting this,
and you know, now it's it's okay to fast for
forty eight hours because it's really good for rebuilding micro micochondria,

(17:35):
mitochondria country I'm what I'm talking about mitochondria, But like
we've all heard it, right, and I guess, like in theory,
there is benefits to some of these things, but how
do we know when fitness and health is actually disordered eating?

Speaker 2 (17:48):
Dressed up?

Speaker 5 (17:48):
Yeah, and again I always like to call out within
any of these things, whether it's the modeling industry or
the fitness industry and all these things. It's not demonizing
these things to say they are necessarily just you know,
a boiling pop eating disorders, But as we said before,
they can so insidiously slowly turn into pushing pressure points
that can become quite maladaptive. And you know, I think

(18:11):
when it comes to the fitness industry, it's knowing that
again that amount of pressure, thought, preoccupation, tying of self
worth and esteem to looking a certain way, being a
certain muscle mass or weight. Again, that's kind of fertile
ground for thoughts about how much do I weigh?

Speaker 4 (18:30):
How much my abs.

Speaker 5 (18:31):
Popping, have I fasted this week?

Speaker 4 (18:35):
What should I be eating for lunch?

Speaker 5 (18:37):
Those things can very easily tip into becoming something that
starts to take control of our life and starts to
negatively impact us. And I think going back to what
us before around some of the misconceptions in twenty twenty five,
it's now knowing that we can be struggling with an
eating disorder actually without it even meeting criteria for anorexy

(18:59):
inovosa or bolimia or full binge eating disorder. Because I
meet people nearly every day in my clinic where they
are significantly impacted by body image and eating disorder type issues,
but they might not actually fall into a category of
a clear defined disorder, but it's still really impactful.

Speaker 3 (19:17):
I had this conversation last night with my husband Ben,
and I've spoken to him and asked if I can
you know mention this on the podcast, and he said, yeah,
it's fine, but I said to him, you have a
form of disordered eating, and it is really common. I
think this is why it's important to talk about not
just in men, but that intersection between like in the
fitness industry and athletes. Ben has been an athlete since

(19:41):
he was fifteen, h his whole life, but he went
professional at like fifteen, and a lot of people don't know.
But in the sports world, this is in all sorts
of industries, team and individual, but football particularly, Like they
are constantly weighing you. They are doing your B and I,
and they are doing fat tests and you have to
be under a certain level of meat correct and if
you're over it, then you've got to do it again

(20:02):
in a week and you know, meet criteria. So they
are constantly getting fat testing. What that has done to
Ben without him even knowing, is he will eat I
want to put this in quotations, something bad which he loves.
He loves sugary sweets, he loves carbs, he loves pasta,
and he needs that to train. He'll eat something and
then he'll be like, I've got to go work out
because he correlates these two things of like and I'm

(20:23):
about to be fat tested, or he'll be like, my
fat test is next week. He'll just eat chicken and
broccoli for that week because he knows, and what that
is done is like every week it is. Of course,
I think it has caused issues with him, and he's
aware of it. He's aware that, you know, I said,
just because you eat something bad now and does not
mean you need to go to the gym. He's like,
I know, but it's just easier for me to stay
on top of it. And he's aware of that connection.
And so many men in his world experience that on

(20:46):
a day to day and that would fall under a
classification of disordered eating.

Speaker 5 (20:49):
Right absolutely, you know, there's clearly an element there, understandably,
and like so many men and so many women where
there's that spark of real anxiety or kind of emotional
triggering there where we're sort of like, well, I've had
this big bowl of pasta, so now I am not
going to feel comfortable or okay until I go for

(21:12):
that run or until I go to the gym, or
maybe we start saying, well tomorrow, I'll have two workouts
to kind of cancel it out and balance it out.
And I've been in that place as well in terms
of that bodybuilding, fitness modeling kind of world that creep
starts to kind of creep in there, even though potentially
been obviously, for example, went to a psychiatrist and they

(21:33):
just looked at the diagnostic criteria for an eating disorder,
they might say, well, you know, for any other criteria
for this, so you don't have an eating disorder, so
it's okay.

Speaker 4 (21:43):
I guess.

Speaker 5 (21:43):
I just want people to know that struggling with an
element of worry and anxiety and preoccupation around your body
image but also how you eat and things that we
have to do after we eat, experiencing that and worrying
about that. Even if you don't feel like it's at
point where I'm quote unquote sick enough or I don't
meet criteria, you are still so valid in feeling that

(22:06):
this is something that isn't serving me or it's impacting me,
and maybe I want to get some support with it.

Speaker 2 (22:11):
Yeah, I would love for us.

Speaker 1 (22:12):
I mean, I know we love a pole here at
Life on Card, but I would love to know how
many people now reflect back on their life and go okay,
either yes now still currently or at some point I
had a very disordered approach to the way I would
say most people, most people, And I don't want to
like trivialize it because I know the spectrum is so severe,
but like it's so vast. But I think about when

(22:34):
I was in my twenties and at my absolute most
food obsessed, when I wanted to be the smallest I
could be, and I was like very I thought about
it now, and it was all I thought about. I'd
walk past a window where I could see myself and
I'd check to see what size I was.

Speaker 2 (22:47):
Like it permeated my entire brain.

Speaker 1 (22:49):
Everything I was on at my diet, which I rationalized
to myself was I couldn't eat anything until three pm
in the afternoon, and then at three pm in the afternoon,
I could eat whatever I wanted so long as it
fit into one bowl. So I had one bowl that
I would eat.

Speaker 3 (23:04):
Which is also doesn't even make sense because you could
put fifty miles bars in a bowl and have your
weeks ago.

Speaker 5 (23:09):
I immediately went to what you could first, yes, but it.

Speaker 1 (23:12):
Was always like you know, dinner or curry or something
like something that if I was a eating, if I
was eating on a diet, I would have portioned controlled
so I was like, well, I can have a decent
serve of I haven't eaten all day, but I'd be
finished that by three thirty and then I couldn't eat
again until the nighttime, just water, And like I did
that for months, and I was so tiny, like tiny, tiny, tiny,
And I think that my family knew I was doing it.

(23:34):
I mean they must have, like, but no one ever
was like that's really fucking weird and like not an
appropriate way to approach food. Like no one ever intervened.
I only got the positive affirmation about how great I looked.
So it really propelled me to keep doing it until
it became you know, I would even not go out
for dinners with people or like stop doing social things
or go on dates like because I was like, well,
I can't do that because it has to be around

(23:55):
my time frame and being able to fit in my bowl.

Speaker 2 (23:57):
Like it was fucking why.

Speaker 3 (23:58):
We also grew up in a time that the fads
were a thing every couple of months.

Speaker 6 (24:02):
Yeah, different way to.

Speaker 2 (24:03):
Eat, like lemon detalks but fast to three.

Speaker 6 (24:06):
That's it. You eat meats and proteins, that's it.

Speaker 5 (24:08):
But even if you had gone to see a psychologist
or a psychiatrist, for example, it might not have fit
the model into these boxes that you've been kind of
made to believe you have to be at, you know,
and I think something else. I just want to mention
there as well as the side to eating disorders and
body image struggles, even if they're sub diagnostic. That social

(24:30):
life part that you mentioned, Laura is so important to
pull out as well, because it's not just about weight
and physical health and depression and anxiety. It is those things, obviously,
but I talk to so many people and I can
even think about myself when I was doing the bodybuilding
stuff when I was younger. It's saying no to a
date because you feel like, well, I wasn't too onto

(24:51):
my training diet yesterday, so I can't go out to
a restaurant tonight. Or it's the skipping family meals, or
you know, being a little bit untruthful to family, the
fact that yeah, I have already had.

Speaker 4 (25:01):
Lunch, and yeah I had a huge lunch. I'm full.
You know.

Speaker 5 (25:04):
It's the little, subtle, powerful ways that it can kind
of start to creep in and affect how we're engaging
with work and our social lives and our friendships and
our families that can be a really huge part to
these things as well.

Speaker 1 (25:17):
Do you think I mean, you know, we've talked a
little bit about how it's evolved over the years and
like how it's kind of fallen into this fitness category.
But also, I mean, social media in and of itself
means that everyone can find a community, right, Like you
can find a community with whoever you want, and there
are a lot of really disturbing communities on social media especially.

(25:38):
I mean, my kids are little, so I don't have
to worry about this yet, but I think of like
parents to young teenagers, there's so much pro anna is
what it's called content online that either tells people how
to be better at restricting your intake, to be able
to like get around those sort of social situations and stuff.

Speaker 2 (25:54):
It's like all the tips and tricks as to how
to do it and do it well.

Speaker 1 (25:58):
How does that impact And do you think that there's
been an increase in people with disordered eating or do
you think it's just that people will always find new
ways to be able to justify what it is that
they're doing.

Speaker 5 (26:07):
We know that rates of eating disorders have been steadily increasing.

Speaker 4 (26:11):
In a lot of ways for some time.

Speaker 5 (26:13):
I mean, even just if we look at rates in
Australia at the moment, sort of between four to five
percent of Australians have an eating disorder in some form,
So that's over a million people even just right now
in Australia, and then across our lives up to ten
percent of people will go through an actual diagnosable period

(26:36):
of an eating disorder, which is you know, nearly kind
of two and a half million people if you look
at the population for example. But god, if we then
take it under that, how many people are not meeting
diagnostic criteria or are falling into these spaces online and
with social media pressures and things where they are adopting
elements of disordered eating and body image pressures that don't

(26:57):
meet a diagnosis.

Speaker 6 (26:58):
Yees, yeah, those numbers would be huge.

Speaker 4 (27:00):
It's astronomical.

Speaker 5 (27:02):
So you know, I think that intersection with social media,
especially for young people too, is huge, especially because it
doesn't have to even be something as explicit as that.
We are still getting just bombarded every day with these
implicit messages around look at her or look at him?
Really successful has a life that I want and part

(27:23):
of our brain even if we don't consciously register it
might then also register really thin or looking really ripped
or looking really lean, and so our brain digests that,
especially for younger succesmple and links success and amazing relationship,
being beautiful, having two hundred thousand followers, part of our

(27:44):
brain subconsciously links these things to appearance or weight or
body image. And that's the really kind of dangerous part
of this. And social media too.

Speaker 1 (27:55):
We've made a lot of headway, I think, you know,
obviously there's way more conversations about it, and there's a
lot more conversations online around body inclusivity and everything as well.
But I do think we'd be remiss of saying that
body inclusivity still only includes a specific type of person,
like when we talk about people of a bigger size,
or it's always they always look a certain way. Though
it's not like the inclusiveness doesn't span across all body

(28:17):
shapes and sizes. And I do still think that there
is this like unevenly weighted aspiration towards a certain physique
that you know, is still upheld as like, well, this
is the standard of hot and this is not. And
we still see that even though there is more diversity.

Speaker 3 (28:33):
It's such a tricky space now because the example that
just popped into my head is Lizo.

Speaker 6 (28:37):
Lizzo has always.

Speaker 3 (28:38):
Been at the forefront of body inclusivity and owning who
you are, and she's obviously a far more curbier woman,
and she's recently lost a lot of weight, and people
because she chose to, she wanted to, she didn't feel
forced to. She said she feels better than ever, you know,
and people have turned on her because it's almost like, yeah,
if you're big, you're always big. You don't get to
you know, you don't get to betray us. I'm losing weight,

(29:00):
And I think it's a really tricky area and I
would love to link this back to the reinforcement. I
think a lot of people struggle with what you can
say and when you can say and how you can
say it, because we pretty blanket statement you shouldn't comment
on someone's body, right, like if someone's lost weight, don't
say you look great, because that could.

Speaker 6 (29:18):
Be triggering in a eating disorder.

Speaker 2 (29:19):
We're aware of that.

Speaker 3 (29:20):
But I think there's a lot of times, and I
would love your expertise, there are a lot of times
people do need to lose weight. It's causing heart issues
and high cholesterol and diabetes and whatever else, thyroid issues.
Those people do need to lose weight for health issues.
I've had people in my life that I have had to
do that, and those people that are on that battle,
they do.

Speaker 6 (29:38):
Need reinforcement and they do need encouragement. So we're they
do they need to be like you?

Speaker 3 (29:42):
You know, you're doing so well, you're looking.

Speaker 6 (29:44):
Great, or you're feeling great. What is the line?

Speaker 3 (29:47):
Because I know a lot of people would struggle because
it's so in your face in social media, don't comment
on someone's body, But I personally think that there are
times that you should for those examples.

Speaker 4 (29:55):
What do you think really tricky?

Speaker 5 (29:57):
I guess probably my best advice on where I would
fe go to here is feeling like we are in
a space where we know.

Speaker 4 (30:04):
That person's journey.

Speaker 5 (30:06):
Yes, yeah, I mean because I think someone can have
significant struggles and negative health and mental health impacts.

Speaker 4 (30:13):
That are associated with weight.

Speaker 5 (30:14):
You know that we know that excess body weight can
for some people cause risks with heart disease other elements
of their health. But we know that for some people
it might not be causing those issues.

Speaker 6 (30:26):
Yes, and I should have specified.

Speaker 3 (30:28):
Sorry, I'm talking about people in your life when you
try and support them but you don't know what is
the right way.

Speaker 5 (30:33):
Yeah, And so I think having almost like a conversation
with them around those elements and in terms of how
they're feeling about that or what their goals are about
that the health related kind of impacts the mental health
related impacts because I think if obviously we get a
clear sense that for someone losing weight for them is

(30:54):
a real positive that is going to and is benefiting
them physically and mentally, I think supporting them within that
and being alongside them within that is helpful.

Speaker 3 (31:05):
And maybe it's more about the question is more about
like how are you feeling?

Speaker 6 (31:09):
Like are you feeling great?

Speaker 3 (31:10):
Not like necessarily that you're looking great, Like tell me
how you're feeling after you know you've lost this kind
of weight.

Speaker 5 (31:15):
Absolutely, but I agree with you, I think kind of
a blanket fear that it has also been pushed at
times around never talking about weight or appearance or food
with people, including people that we love and are close to.
I don't think that's necessarily helpful because then in a
way it only kind of keeps all of this stuff
really silent, siloed everything Absolutely.

Speaker 1 (31:39):
What about the I mean, we're in the dawn of
ozembic era, Like, I mean, it's everywhere, it's everywhere, it's everywhere.
Do you think that this is going to impact or
further impact or has there been any sort of I
guess data so far and how it's impacting people's mental
health around their body image and also around the accessibility
of thinness.

Speaker 5 (31:58):
Yeah, I mean I think we're way for that data
to come out of the consequences. But I agree again
a real double edged sor potentially in terms of again
pushing that narrative around sin is better, thin is better,
and success is linked to looking this specific way, and
success and happiness is linked to losing weight or being

(32:23):
at this weight. I can absolutely see as a psychiatrist
working in this space, how that is potentially really dangerous
for again kind of just influencing and pushing people in
that direction around weight loss.

Speaker 3 (32:37):
Is there a link direct link to disordered eating and
eating disorders and other conditions like OCD and ADHD and anxiety.

Speaker 5 (32:45):
Yeah, absolutely so we know if someone is struggling with
another mental health condition or struggle like depression, anxiety, OCD,
they are more at risk than of also having a
comorbid eating disorder, and some of that probably again comes
down to those foundational kind of genetics and predispositions we

(33:05):
talked about, but I think also eating disorders in particularly
can become linked to reinforcing or comforting or being part.

Speaker 4 (33:15):
Of those struggles.

Speaker 5 (33:17):
And as we said before, I talk to a lot
of patients who feel like when their anxiety is flaring
and in a more difficult space, that's when they're eating
disorder symptoms also really ramp up, because in this implicit,
subconscious roundabout way, the control of the eating disorder and
things kind of almost acts as a little bit of

(33:38):
a quell for anxiety. ADHD and neurodivergence, for example, we
know now has this significant link to binge eating disorder
in particular, and so there might even be elements of
impulsivity and having a craving or an urge and not
being able to hold that urge that specifically then also
really flares this risk for binge eating disorder for those

(34:00):
who have ADHD.

Speaker 4 (34:01):
So it's all.

Speaker 5 (34:02):
Definitely fined and kind of chicken and egging type sort
of thing as well.

Speaker 3 (34:07):
We haven't't really touched on binge eating yet, but what
would you say is the most prevalent eating disorder out
of I want to say the more common, which is
binge eating, anorexi nevosa, and bolimia.

Speaker 5 (34:19):
It often shocks people that binge eating disorder by a
whole mile is the most common eating disorder by far. Again,
I think that's surprising for a lot of people, because
when we think eating disorder, we think anorexia nevosa, we
think billimia, But far and away the most common eating
disorder at the moment is binge eating disorder. And so

(34:40):
it's one that we actually don't talk about a whole lot,
and a lot of people don't even actually know what
binge eating disorder is, So I guess just to dive
into that so only I mean Binge eating disorder is
when there isn't necessarily a significant focus on losing weight
or needing to be thinner, or needing to look a
certain way, and there's not a reflexive I've had this

(35:01):
food and I need to get rid of this food
somehow with vomiting or laxatives or another mechanism. Binge eating
disorder is when we are falling into these recurrent periods
of losing control with how much we're eating in a
defined period. They say two hours in the DSM, but
I think it could be any period of time. Yeah,
and it's associated with things then, like feeling significant disgust

(35:23):
and shame or anxiety afterwards, doing it in secret because
we feel ashamed or embarrassed, a significant amount of time
planning and thinking around what we might eat, or collecting
the food together that we might have later. And so
binge eating disorder in that sense is super common. But
also it's common even if it's not to that diagnosable point.

(35:46):
I think love us in some way, and so many
people can relate to periods of time where we felt
like I lost a little bit of control there, or
I had a really terrible day at work and then
I ended up.

Speaker 1 (35:57):
That was my treatment for it, That was my you know,
sympeople go home to have a glass of wine some
but go home and eat two pizzas.

Speaker 3 (36:02):
Yeah. I sometimes still eat until I make myself sick.
But it's not an eating disorder. I just like, maybe
I just eat too quickly, like I often.

Speaker 2 (36:11):
Well that's different now that's what I'm saying.

Speaker 3 (36:12):
But I will still eat until I feel sick.

Speaker 6 (36:16):
But I don't know why.

Speaker 3 (36:17):
I'm only just realizing it now, the number of times
I'm like, I feel I'm well with how much I
just eat.

Speaker 5 (36:22):
I do.

Speaker 1 (36:23):
But I think then everyone does that to some extent.
Its I feel like that's more like a pacing thing
or like do you know what I mean?

Speaker 2 (36:28):
But definitely facingly.

Speaker 1 (36:30):
You've mentioned a couple of times the idea of shame
around food, or shame around not just food that we
might intate, but like you know, shame around.

Speaker 2 (36:37):
The actual disordered eating.

Speaker 1 (36:39):
How do you suggest people approach conversations with either their friends,
But I'm also really interested from a parental perspective, like,
if you're a parent and you're concerned about your kids
or the way that your kids might interact with food,
how do you have these conversations with them in a
way that doesn't exacerbate it or demonize it, and to
try and kind of chip away at what's actually happened.

Speaker 5 (37:00):
Yeah, not easy, I think just to put that out there,
especially for parents, even for kids, I think it's an
element of again knowing and exploring that person's actual experience
is the important thing? Is something we're noticing tied to
them actually feeling anxious or worried about that, or because
they've heard something or been told something about them or

(37:23):
their weight, or is it something that we're seeing that's
actually connected to something completely different, like a loved one
having seen the doctor and been told for your heart,
you should start giving your meal smaller. So I think
not being afraid to ask people in our lives how
they're feeling in terms of their sense of appearance or
weight or their food, I think that broaches the discussion

(37:44):
to get their sense of what's happening and what's.

Speaker 4 (37:47):
Driving that thing.

Speaker 5 (37:48):
Especially with kids and teens, the modeling side of it
from parents, we know is super impactful and important. So
watching how we talk about ourselves and our weight, or
we talk about our own eating or meals.

Speaker 4 (38:04):
You know, kids especially.

Speaker 5 (38:05):
Are just sponge to the max in terms of just
picking up all these little things and being like, oh,
mum seemed upset or slightly anxious, or her face changed
in terms of when she mentioned she shouldn't have eaten.

Speaker 6 (38:17):
That, or that she doesn't look good in something else.

Speaker 5 (38:20):
Yeah, So I think it's watching those elements and knowing
that that on its own can have a real positive
flow on effect. If our kids aren't soaking up those messages.
But again, I think for kids, and obviously it's an
age based thing in terms of what they can kind
of conceptualize, but it's not being afraid to have discussions
around how we're feeling about.

Speaker 4 (38:40):
Our body or what we eat.

Speaker 5 (38:42):
The focus being on eating for health and strength and happiness,
rather than food constantly being tied to wait an appearance.

Speaker 2 (38:53):
And what's bad for you?

Speaker 4 (38:54):
Exactly?

Speaker 3 (38:55):
What's the age group we haven't really touched that that
is affected most by eating disorders.

Speaker 5 (39:00):
So young people predominantly, teens predominantly, so a third of
all people with eating disorders in total, a whole third
of that chunk below the age of nineteen.

Speaker 4 (39:13):
So if you think of like the whole.

Speaker 5 (39:15):
Range of people people have eating disorders, it is something
that significantly pushes and pressures young people. And again there's
a whole lot of reasons for that, but I think
one of the reasons is that, as all of us know,
when we're in our teens, those concepts of what do
others think of me? How am I comparing to my peers?
Am I liked? Am I accepted? Am I someone who's

(39:36):
being asked out? Am I attractive? All of these things
are in a little pressure cooker during that period where
we're trying to figure ourselves out. And again, I think
that's where those roots of kind of body image and
eating struggles can then really.

Speaker 4 (39:48):
Kind of latch on there.

Speaker 5 (39:50):
So it is something I think we should be thinking
about talking to.

Speaker 4 (39:54):
Our young people, our kids and teens more.

Speaker 5 (39:56):
But it's also something I think we can be remembering
that if if we are modeling especially kind of how
we're talking and going about our own kind of dynamics
with food and eating and fitness and weight, that can
flow on into young people too.

Speaker 1 (40:12):
I always say I feel like we are the generation
we're like the self help generation of parenting. I don't know,
I mean, I don't know what the impacts of that
is going to be, but you know, there's so many
tools out there now to do things better or to
have better conversations with kids, and I think for the
most part, parents in general want to do a good job.
They want to be good parents. Of course, there's shitty

(40:32):
parents out there, but like I would say, most people
are trying to be a better parent and potentially even
be a better parent than how they were parented.

Speaker 2 (40:41):
And so, you know, I think for a lot of us.

Speaker 1 (40:43):
We have these blueprints of potentially how our parents spoke
about food to us because they didn't have the reference
point for it. They didn't know that one way was damaging,
a one way wasn't.

Speaker 3 (40:54):
I know my dad did this like the protein cheese diet,
you know, or you eat like salamian cheese.

Speaker 2 (40:59):
Yeah, I did it.

Speaker 6 (41:00):
I remember being like, I'll do that too.

Speaker 2 (41:02):
We did everything, but you know, they don't know. Like
I remember coming home.

Speaker 1 (41:06):
From like the Uni bar one day and like I'd
put on a bit of way in Uni, as everyone does.
That's just what you do at Uni. And my mum
was like, are you sure you're not pregnant? And I
was like, cool, that's not helpful, like possibly, but.

Speaker 3 (41:18):
That's not.

Speaker 5 (41:20):
Like you're like now I'm worried about something else.

Speaker 1 (41:22):
I thought of that now, and I you know, obviously
bless my mom, like she's a great mom.

Speaker 2 (41:26):
She would have no idea like how insulting that was.

Speaker 1 (41:29):
She was just like, you know, it was her way
of trying to tell me that she thought I put
on weight. Irrelevant, who cares? But I now know, like
as a parent, like you would never fucking say.

Speaker 2 (41:37):
That to it.

Speaker 3 (41:38):
We only know it from how much should we have
these conversations? And they weren't exposed to what we were
exposed in there.

Speaker 5 (41:44):
That's out there now, it's just you know, and in
all little different ways, Like I remember my dad bringing
me and my brothers out to like the garage home
workout thing even ten or eleven years old left it
be amare do you work your biceps?

Speaker 4 (42:01):
Now?

Speaker 5 (42:01):
Like seeing young guys with body dysmorphere and stuff, I'm like,
oh shit.

Speaker 1 (42:05):
To be fair, though, I still think that side of
it exists. I think that like kids are younger and
younger getting into like working out or muscles, Like I
see eight nine year olds now that are talking about
their muscles and get and working out, which I think
that that was different when.

Speaker 2 (42:18):
We were younger.

Speaker 1 (42:18):
I don't think that was as prevalent, But that's because
the muscle culture wasn't as prevalent.

Speaker 3 (42:22):
I think one of the important conversations now for people
at home is if you do have someone in your life,
maybe it's yourself, but maybe it's like a sibling or
a loved one or a friend that you know is struggling,
but they might not think they're sick enough. And I
say that, because I think that's a lot of people
that withhold going to get medical help for any reason
because they don't think that they're in dire need or

(42:44):
they don't think they're unwell enough. And I don't just
say that for eating disorders, I say for everything. You know,
people stay at home with having heart attack because they
don't think they should go to the doctor. Literally, how
does somebody help someone in their life when you're at.

Speaker 5 (42:54):
That point, whether it's someone that you love or know,
or whether it's yourself. If you asking that question. For
me as a psychiatrist, that is always the point to
be thinking. Should I be getting some more info or
support about this?

Speaker 4 (43:11):
You know?

Speaker 5 (43:11):
So I think if someone is sitting there feeling like, well,
I definitely don't have anorexia, or maybe I don't even
have full binge eating disorder, but I'm worried about how
this element of me worrying about my appearance or this
element of my diet is affecting my mental health.

Speaker 4 (43:28):
Just know that that is so valid.

Speaker 5 (43:31):
In terms of that being a significant thing that you
can and should seek some support for. So I think
talking is the biggest thing, you know, and I think
that's what chats like this are about as well. It's
hopefully people then going and like having a chat about
it with their friends and being like, do you guys.

Speaker 4 (43:46):
Do this or you know, is this normal? You know?

Speaker 5 (43:51):
I feel really anxious if I eat before three pm.
You know, it's having these discussions that in and of itself,
especially at at slightly lower level, can really help some
of these things start to shift and progress and improve.

Speaker 3 (44:06):
I don't know how I feel about it, but there's like,
I'm watching this show at the moment. It's very widely popular,
so many people have heard of it. Ginny and Georgia
season two.

Speaker 6 (44:15):
It's really good. Anyway.

Speaker 3 (44:16):
There's a theme in season two about these teenage girls
and their two friends discover that they're both suffering from bolimia,
and at the start when it played out, I thought, oh,
this is great that they're covering these themes that obviously
affect young girls. But then there was another part of
it that switched a couple of episodes later, and I thought,
hang on, is this perpetuating the idea and showing is

(44:37):
it doing more damage than good? Because I just wonder
if it's putting the idea in people's head that might
have thought about it. So I don't know what the
answer is, but I found it interesting to think that, Okay,
they're obviously trying to do something good and raise and
make it relatable and raise. Because I haven't seen the
end of it. I'm sure it's going to play out
where they get help. I imagine, I don't can't imagine
a world. Yes, but I did think this is probably

(45:00):
perpetuating the idea and planting that seed to people that
might not have crossed their minds.

Speaker 1 (45:04):
And I also think question like your immediate community, because
sometimes people can reinforce this behavior. You know, if I'd
had these conversations in my twenties, my girlfriends at the
time would have been like, oh my god, good for
you for having self control. They wouldn't have said this
is a problem because they were all doing it themselves.
You know, had one girl that was living off an
apple a day, Like it was like, if you could
do it the best, then you were you know, you

(45:25):
had the best self control around it. So I think,
like it's really important to really assess who is it
that you're talking to about this stuff. Is it reinforcing
the behavior or are they holding a mirror up to you?
And saying like that's not normal. You should continue to
explore how you know that's not normal?

Speaker 5 (45:39):
Definitely, you know, And it is a double short in
terms of especially things on the level of like advertising
and TV and things, there is that potential element of
glorifying things and flagging it in that way. In a way,
but I think with all mental health conditions, I think
the big thing that I also push is that us
asking those questions in that more place personal sense to

(46:01):
our friends, family loved ones. It's a bit of a
myth in terms of oh my god, well if I
ask about it, maybe I'll make it worse or plant
the seed. If I ask them if they've self harmed
or if they're thinking of suicide, it's going to make
them more likely to do it.

Speaker 4 (46:16):
We have heaps of.

Speaker 5 (46:17):
Research now to show that that isn't the case, and
if you ask about it, you are more likely to
help that person start to think about it and get
support and move it in a positive direction. And I
think the other thing to add in terms of you
know where and how to get help for yourself or
get help for someone else, it's really really hard. It's
easier to say than do, but booking an appointment with

(46:40):
the GP, for example. Like I think even when we
think about the GP, we think we have to have
something really wrong or we have to be quote unquote
sick to be booking an appointment with the GP, and
especially with mental health stuff, you know, we don't think
about seeing the GP just to ask is this something
that's quoite unquote normal or that I be worried about?

(47:01):
And again not all interactions with lgp's and health professionals
might be helpful in a sense, but I think it's
you know, asking the question if you feel it in yourself.

Speaker 3 (47:12):
I think that's really interesting and I'd love to know
if it's changed. I think it has changed, But so
many people in my life, myself included, I have gone
to the GP before and they told me I was overweight.
Where they used to do your BMI, which used to
be the baseline.

Speaker 6 (47:26):
Your body massing there. It used to be the baseline for.

Speaker 2 (47:29):
Life ways of figuring it out.

Speaker 6 (47:30):
Yeah, but it was never accurate.

Speaker 3 (47:32):
And I remember leaving they were like, you are technically
on the cusp of being overweight because I was very muscly, Like,
I was very fit, and I had a lot I mean,
I had a bit of fat too.

Speaker 6 (47:41):
But I remember leaving that and thinking, fuck, I've got
to lose weight. I can't believe I'm overweight.

Speaker 3 (47:46):
And I remember telling people like the doctor said, my
BMI is a bit high, and I remember people will
be like, are you crazy, like because I was so fit.

Speaker 6 (47:53):
But do they still operate off that system.

Speaker 5 (47:56):
Thankfully No, not in that same way, thank god. And
you know it's because just as you said, we now
thankfully know that b AI not a gauge of health
or necessarily it's you know, it's measuring other things other
than fat mass and all of this stuff. But also,
as we've said as well, regardless of how much someone
weighs or their BMI category, we absolutely now know that

(48:20):
that does not mean they can't still also be really
struggling with a significant eating disorder, even billiemia, nevosa atypical
anorexia and nervosa is symptoms of anorexia where the person
does not have a significantly.

Speaker 4 (48:34):
Low weight or BMI.

Speaker 5 (48:37):
So you know, there will still be pockets of even
within the medical.

Speaker 4 (48:41):
Profession, where that still needs to shift more.

Speaker 5 (48:44):
But by and large, now we have come a long
way in the medical profession, even with how we talk
and think about weight and health and body image and size.

Speaker 1 (48:53):
So Karen, before we let you go, there was something
you said before we even started recording that I didn't know,
and I found it really interesting also incredibly devastating in
terms of anorexia and when someone's being clinically diagnosed and
it is quite severe, what is the mortality rate for
someone who is diagnosed with that or recovery rate?

Speaker 5 (49:12):
So for significant or severe anorexia, we know that anorexia
and ivosa has the highest mortality rate of any psychiatric disorder.
And so obviously that's not to scare people, but it
is to say how significant the things we're talking about
are because of any other mental health condition, by polar

(49:34):
effective disorder, schizophrenia, any other condition, if someone is diagnosed
with significant anorex nervosa, they are more likely to die
from that cause than any other psychiatric cause. So it's
really really significant. And again, if we've touched on and
talked about this whole way through things not necessarily having

(49:56):
to look like that traditional severe and anorexia, but of
this often being a trickle effect in terms of where
things can kind of be pushed and lead to and
reinforced and flared. We are not just talking about teenage girls,
you know, having some struggles around you know, how many
carbs they eat or sometimes people can also kind of

(50:16):
almost talk about and think about eating disorders in a
little bit.

Speaker 1 (50:19):
Of a trivialized way.

Speaker 5 (50:22):
But these are really significant and impactful conditions that have
a significant mortality rate, and that for anorexia, for example,
are also potentially signficantly hard to recover from, and for
some people they may actually never be able to fully recover.
So it is about again not making that a scary thing,

(50:42):
but hopefully making it an inspiring thing in a way.
To know that catching this and talking about eating disorder
and body midge dynamics much more. At the top of
the cliff, I say that metaphor is so important for
all of us to be thinking about.

Speaker 1 (50:56):
Yeah, Karen, thank you so much for coming and being
part of the podcast. And I do know that there
will be so many people who listen to this who
have had their own experiences, whether it's themselves, someone they love,
someone in their family. I mean, we've all know, we've
all known someone who's had like a frightening weight fluctuation,
and like I think a lot of us don't know
what is the best way of approaching that with a

(51:17):
friend or a loved one.

Speaker 3 (51:18):
Yeah, and it's sad to think that we can say
that everyone listening knows someone or has an experience like that.

Speaker 6 (51:24):
Statistic should not be that high.

Speaker 5 (51:26):
Definitely, no, thank you so much, guys, And I guess
I just want to I think that's a really lovely
note to leave on as well. In terms of to
struggle with an eating disorder or to struggle with body
image and things, it is not necessarily that traditional image
that we've kind of all been painted with. You can
be a professional athlete or a model, you can be

(51:48):
someone who's you know, body image might not actually even
look like you struggle with eating or weight related issues.
There's no one kind of flavor or.

Speaker 4 (52:00):
Way that this presents or looks.

Speaker 5 (52:02):
And so if you are worried about body image or
eating or how this is affecting your life or making
you feel, we should be talking to people about it
and getting some support.

Speaker 4 (52:11):
And it's just valid at whatever level it's on.

Speaker 2 (52:14):
So thanks Kien,