August 28, 2025 • 47 mins
Climate is something that we know people care about. It’s something I think a lot of us have anxiety about and feel somewhat helpless around.
It’s also not usually the most sexy or humorous topic; but today’s guest has somehow found the ability to interconnect all of those things in her brand new book “Nature’s last dance”. Today we are joined by Natalie Kyriacou! Natalie is an award-winning environmentalist, writer, public speaker, and company director. She was awarded the Medal of the Order of Australia and the Forbes 30 Under 30 honour for her services to wildlife and environmental conservation in 2018.
Today we wanted to speak about our environmental footprint, some misunderstandings in how we view nature, and whether we are completely f*cked when it comes to climate.
But we actually start this chat by Nat telling us that it’s likely the current prime minister thinks she vaginal steams…
We chat:
- Why younger generations seem to be more passionate about climate change and nature destruction
- The big organisations and systems that point the finger and tell you to use a reusable cup
- The fashion industry’s impact on our environment
- Conspicuous consumption - the peacocking of social status
- Are the damages to our environment too far gone to ‘correct course’?
- How climate disasters disproportionately affect women
- What we can all do to help
- “Greenwashing” and being brand aware
- Why the price of chocolate is going to skyrocket because of nature
- Animals and the cute curse
- The ejaculation helmet
- Bonobos and their giant clits
You can get a copy of Nature’s Last Dance
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
This episode was recorded on Cameragle Land. Hi guys, and
welcome back to another episode of Life on Cut.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
I'm Laura, I'm Brittany.
Speaker 3 (00:16):
Now we have an interview that's a little bit left
of field for Life on Cut, being that normally we
talk about relationships, and normally we talk about things like
relationships with you know, romantic partners or your parents, maybe situationship.
But today we're talking about climate And the reason for
that is because I feel like it's one of those
topics that everyone has a general concern or anxiety about,
(00:36):
unless you're a climate denier, but like, don't put your
hand up if you are. But it's something that a
lot of us have a lot of feelings about. But
it's also that thing that kind of gets parked because
it's a little bit too hard basket, and it also
feels like it's quite in the future. It also feels
like it's a problem that's so big that it's almost
insurmountable to tackle on an individual level, when it seems
like government should be doing so much more. But in
(00:58):
this instance, I mean during the last election, it was
discussed so highly how much people care about what is
happening in terms of politics and climate and the real
question is is how fucked are we actually when it
comes to climate change.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
So we're going to tell you doom.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
No, we're joking.
Speaker 3 (01:15):
Hopefully it's not just doom and gloom. But we have
Nat Kuriako here. Nat has just written a book. It's
called Nature's Last Dance and Nat is an award winning environmentalist, writer,
public speaker and company director. She was awarded the Medal
of the Order of Australia and the Forbes thirty under
thirty just have some more accolades. Why don't you on
offer her service to wildlife and environmental conservation in twenty eighteen.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
Nat, Welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 4 (01:40):
Nat. We are going to get into some i mean
some lighthearted stuff and some very serious stuff. But before
we do, we kickstart with accidentally Unfiltered. So your most
embarrassing story? What have you got for us?
Speaker 5 (01:50):
I've got quite a few, but one of them that's
I guess sort of appropriate. I think I think the
Prime Minister, well, the Prime Minister thinks I do vaginal steaming, Like.
Speaker 6 (02:00):
That's all you need to say.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
That's fine. Also, why does Albo know if you do
you don't.
Speaker 5 (02:05):
Oh, it was a series of unfortunate events. But for
some reason, he follows me on Instagram. I don't.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
I don't know why.
Speaker 6 (02:11):
And because he thinks you vaginal steam that's why.
Speaker 5 (02:14):
And sometimes, like a lot of the time, I post
really smart stuff, policy stuff, environmental stuff, but sometimes I
post things about sex, wildlife sex or you know, other things,
and he always sees the inappropriate ones.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
He never sees a smart post.
Speaker 5 (02:28):
But one day I went and did an ice bath
and then I made a joke that I now do
vaginal steaming, and nobody got the joke. So then I
got all of these Instagram messages saying that asking like
if I really do vaginal steaming, it's not good for
your vagina, And then people like you meant to like
sort of crouch over a bucket with essential oils, and
it was really weird. But anyway, the Prime Minister was
(02:49):
the first person to see that video. And then I
panicked because I was like, oh god, I don't want
him to think I do vaginal steaming, or I don't
want all of these policy makers follow me, and I'm like,
I don't want them to think I do vaginal steaming.
So then I tried to correct it by letting everyone
know that I actually don't do vaginal steaming, and then
I just went down this rabbit hole where I started
explaining to people why vaginal steaming isn't bad. You should
(03:11):
I could have just deleted the story. Yeah, yeah, I
didn't even think to delete the story. There was six
posts and me just talking about vaginal steaming, and he
watched every single one of them, and so it was
so funny.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
You know what's funny.
Speaker 3 (03:23):
You know what's funny when you see like someone's love
hearted a story.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
I'm just imagining albow being like.
Speaker 4 (03:27):
Well done with the heart, no, the hard eyes, and
it like flotters up in the air.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
There you are in an absolutely fucking mental spiral.
Speaker 4 (03:35):
What is it that made you passionate about the environment
and sort of go down this track in the first place?
Speaker 5 (03:40):
I mean a few things, all the regular stuff. I
spent my childhood outdoors camping all the time. He used
to go camping with my family every second weekend, and
then on the weekends we didn't, Dad would pitch a
tent in our backyard and we would camp outside and
pretend we were in a rainforest and there were bears
and things, but there was a pretty standout moment for me.
I spent a few months living in the Bornean jungle
(04:02):
working in an orangutan rehabilitation center, and that experience was
pretty life changing for me. I had an orangutan steel
my underwear, Like I got into a tugga wall contest
with the orangutan, and I've got photos of this orangutan
wearing my underwear around his neck. And that was the
moment you knew, And that was the moment I knew,
this is my new path, this is this is where
I'm going. Yeah. I think it was just a combination
(04:24):
of just really giving a shit. I really cared about
the environment. I saw it as a human rights issue.
I loved animals, I loved wildlife. I wanted to have
a nice planet for everybody to live on spend a
lot of time outdoors. But then I got to have
these really incredible experiences, both in Australia and abroad, where
I was sort of seeing firsthand some of the destruction
(04:44):
but also the joys of nature. So I wanted to
protect that.
Speaker 3 (04:48):
Do you think in terms of like where we are
in Australia and in terms of like the government's perspective
and policies around it. Are we doing enough or are
you of the thought process that like actually had towards
a real disaster.
Speaker 5 (05:01):
I mean, things aren't great. It hasn't been a good year.
I don't think the government's doing nearly enough. I've been
quite disappointed with their policies or their lack of policies.
I think there are some countries, there are a few
countries in Europe that are I mean, doing really well,
and we've got a lot to learn from.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
So I don't think, I mean, we're not in a
great state.
Speaker 5 (05:20):
I don't want to say we're heading towards disaster, but
we sort of are heading towards disaster, but we can
stop it. I mean, there are so many, so many
stories of the most incredible people, grassroots communities, NGOs, policymakers
doing like truly phenomenal things to protect nature, to try
to limit the effects of climate change, of young people
who have really loud voices now and who are doing
(05:43):
incredible work to change laws for example.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
So it's not all doom and gloom. There's amazing stories.
Speaker 5 (05:49):
But no, our government is not nearly meeting its responsibility,
particularly to future generations.
Speaker 3 (05:54):
Do you think that that's a bit of an age
disparity in the conversation and that young people are the
ones taking it far more seriously than say, our past generations.
Speaker 5 (06:02):
Yeah, I mean I think we have people environmentalists of
all generations, but I think young people, well, they were
born into a society that had largely accepted the science
of climate change. And they're also the generation that is
most heavily impacted by climate change and by nature destruction,
so they know that their futures will be bleaker unless
(06:23):
we stop this, so they're more engaged.
Speaker 4 (06:25):
Yeah, and it's also just exposure to different levels of education.
Like our parents' generation, well you knew things were damaging.
They don't have the research that we have now. They
don't have the evidence that they have now, and the
accessibility to new information what other countries are doing. They
didn't have that, so there was nothing to compare it to,
and nothing, for want of a better term, like to five.
(06:46):
For there's been five mass extinctions in our lifetime, all
caused by natural things.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
And not in our lifetime.
Speaker 4 (06:51):
Sorry, in the world since the world's conception not humans
before humans prehistoric.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
So I used that in our lifetime.
Speaker 3 (06:59):
I was like, I'm in the last thirty seven years prehistoric, like.
Speaker 6 (07:03):
In the world's lifetime.
Speaker 4 (07:06):
There are a lot of people that I don't know
if it's a scare tactic that people are using. I
don't know how much truth to it is. There are
a lot of people that are saying we are heading
towards another extinction. From your research, what do you think
about that?
Speaker 5 (07:17):
Yeah, so, I mean Earth has existed for over four
and a half billion years. The five extinctions, the last
one was the most famous. That's when dinosaurs went extinct,
and that was about sixty six million years ago. Most
scientists now say we are in the midst of a
sixth mass extinction, which does sound quite scary.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
But how you differ, No ideal is that it's not good.
Speaker 5 (07:39):
So what it actually means is when seventy five around
seventy five percent of species of life on Earth becomes
extinct in a small amount of time.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
But a small amount of time in life.
Speaker 5 (07:50):
On Earth is about two million years or two or
three millionaires, So the rate we haven't reached seventy five percent,
So seventy five percent of our species on Earth have
not gone extinct, but the rate in which they have
gone extinct.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
That's the problem.
Speaker 5 (08:03):
It's been in the last two hundred years, so we're
talking Normally, changes happen over millions and millions of years.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
Humanity is sort of it's like expedited now.
Speaker 5 (08:13):
Yes, And all of the previous mass extinctions were caused
by natural events, so volcanoes, asteroids. Here, it's the exception
in the sixth mass extinction, it's humanity that's causing it.
We are the only species in the history of life
on Earth to cause a mass extinction event and destroy
life on Earth to such an extent.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
Sorry, I'm not good at dinner parties.
Speaker 6 (08:36):
It's not fun, but.
Speaker 4 (08:38):
I think it's I mean, it is scary because it
is easy to say that, yeah, we have a history
of it, it's a natural part of life's evolution.
Speaker 6 (08:44):
But yeah, it hasn't happened before where we've done it
to ourselves.
Speaker 5 (08:47):
I find it really funny because we are the only
species to actually debate whether or not we should maintain
the conditions necessary for our own survival. And people say,
you know, extinction is natural, and that's also true. So
extinction has always existed, but usually it's one species goes
extinct per million species. Now with humans, it's one thousand
(09:09):
to ten thousand species per million, so the rate of
extinction is thousands of times higher than the natural rate.
Speaker 2 (09:15):
So that's the problem I.
Speaker 3 (09:17):
Think for a lot of people though, And I mean,
I don't want to bottle everyone into the same sort
of group, but it feels like it's one of those
problems that are so big and that there is so
much to it, but it doesn't feel like it's something
that can be contributed to on an individual level.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
And I know we're all kind of we're all kind
of led to believe.
Speaker 3 (09:34):
Recycle reduce your plastic wasts, But then when you actually
get into the nitty gritty of in terms of like
what huge mining companies are doing, or manufacturing companies, or
what the governments are doing on large scale, it doesn't
really feel like sorting your paper from your plastic is
actually going to be enough to make any indent change
at all. Do you think that this is something that
sits on an individual responsibility or is it something that
(09:56):
has to be overaarchingly policy change.
Speaker 5 (10:00):
One of my biggest pet peeves was when a lot
of the oil and gas companies came out and started
telling everybody it was their individual responsibility, because what they
were essentially doing is saying, we're going to continue our
business as usual, but it's up to you to, you know,
not drive your car so much, and I just thought
that's crap. Of course, all individuals have a responsibility. We
should all try and work in our own ways and
(10:21):
use our own power to make change. And I can
talk about how soon, but it really we need to
change these underlying systems that create harm. And we have
companies in Australia who know fossil fuel companies who are
able to dictate what policies get through in government. They
have a huge amount of influence over a government. We
have companies that are sort of breaking laws, polluting lands,
(10:43):
harming people, yet we're still saying, okay, no, this is
up to the individual. That eleven year old girl isn't
recycling her coffee cup properly, and I just don't think
that's fair. We all have a role, but some people
and some organizations have an outsized role and outsized impacts.
So my focus is how do we change these systems?
How can we change our political systems to have more integrity,
(11:04):
to look after young people, protect young people. How do
we change our economic systems, so we don't have an
economy that is based on endless consumption and endless production.
So I'm really focused more on systems rather than saying, oh, no,
that twelve year old girl, it's all her fault because
she hasn't recycled.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
Well, it's funny that you like even mentioned the coffee
cup debates. So I would have been like five years
ago now where like every single influencer online or people
were like yelling at each other about people not using
keep cups.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
Does I remember this?
Speaker 3 (11:33):
It was when Keea cups first came in and there
was this rule like you can't be seen on social
media not using a keep cup because if you were,
then you were the problem. And it's like, I understand
that that all is helpful, and by no means am
I trying to disregard the efforts that are made on
an individual level. But it feels as though when you
don't have a person to target, we target individuals. We
say well that's the problem, rather than being like, actually, collectively,
(11:57):
but it's much greater than what the individual person can do.
Speaker 4 (11:59):
Thedview vials are the problems as well. It's just that
that can make a small dent in a bigger problem.
It's the big conglomerates that are going to make the
huge amount of change. But that's not to say that
each individual, like everything adds up. A lot of people
think that I'm just one person, what can I do.
It's the same idea as if you're like, how can
I help this charity.
Speaker 6 (12:16):
I don't have any money. All I can give is
a dollar. If a billion people gave one dollar, that's
a billion dollars. So it is the same idea.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
Absolutely agree, it's both, it's all of it.
Speaker 5 (12:26):
My focus is on more on systems, but we need
individual action and it does play a huge role. It's
interesting what the shaming things? Really interesting because I agree
with you, but there are cases. So in Europe, flight
shaming is a thing where you're sort of shamed for
flying too much in aeroplanes and.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
It has worked and people opt.
Speaker 5 (12:47):
For I mean, they have better train systems, but people
opt to catch the train and they can reduce their
emissions easier. So I don't really encourage people to shame.
But if we do encourage these sort of positive behaviors
at an individual level, that can need to systems change
because what we see is cultural shifts, and that's really
really important.
Speaker 3 (13:04):
I mean we see it with all celebrities now as well,
this whole like you know, people tracking flights and understanding
the carbon footprint of what individual celebrities or powerful people
are able to have.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
We have such a huge.
Speaker 3 (13:17):
Female audience, like our listenership, and I know that one
of the leading contributors, I wouldn't say leader, but a
huge contributor is the fashion industry. What are the impacts
that the fashion industry is having on climate change?
Speaker 5 (13:29):
Yeah, so fashion overall contributes about ten percent of global
greenhouse gases to the atmosphere.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
It's enormous.
Speaker 5 (13:38):
My T shirt, just this T shirt, seven thousand Leaders
of Water we used to make it. It's about three kilograms
of carbon dioxide were emitted. And that's not including the
packaging that it came in or the transport one.
Speaker 2 (13:51):
For one T shirt.
Speaker 5 (13:51):
You're also all of the chemicals that are used to
make it. They end up bleaching into waterways and impacting
marine habitats and marine life. So everything that we wear
it has an impact. And that's not to say that
you need to, you know, sit in your bedroom nude
and crying, but it's just understanding that everything we use
has an impact, and we consume at an enormous rate,
(14:14):
like far beyond anything.
Speaker 2 (14:16):
Any of our sort of predecessors consumed.
Speaker 5 (14:18):
We don't need wardrobes, you know, are filled with hundreds
of different outfits with their tags still on them.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
We don't need that. So we need to be rethinking.
Speaker 5 (14:27):
And I think we were seeing this movement now, But
how can we share clothes more? How can we reuse
clothes more? Can we make op shops call that's.
Speaker 6 (14:34):
My next question.
Speaker 4 (14:35):
It's perfect leading, but about conspicuous consumption and how it
shows up in our day to day life.
Speaker 6 (14:39):
But you've just made me realize.
Speaker 4 (14:40):
And I don't quote me on this, but I believe
it was Japan that not that long ago brought in
like a travel clothes swap where you could go to
Japan and you don't have to travel with clothes. You
can go to a store there that gives you, like
let loans you the clothes while you're there, then you
loan it back. And so the idea is you're you're
not buying as much, need to travel with as much,
(15:00):
I need to take as much.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
That's cool.
Speaker 6 (15:02):
Yeah, I have a look at it.
Speaker 4 (15:03):
But yeah, anyway, back to conspicuous consumption, talk to us
about how that shows up in our day to day life.
Speaker 5 (15:08):
So conspicuous consumption, it's a term that was coined by
this guy called Thorston Veblin, and basically he said that
wealth and it's not enough just to have wealth and power.
You must put it into evidence because wealth and power
are only really important once they're seen. So it's that
you're were, Yeah, So it's like it's wealth and consumption activism.
Really like it's peacocking but around your consumption habits, which
(15:31):
when you think about it, it's quite a strange thing.
But you see, like if you on dating apps, might
be guys that are sort of casually reclined in a
first class lounge or leaning against a Porsche, or showing
off their wealth, or it might be designer handbags on Instagram,
whatever it might be, it's demonstrating your desirability. And so
evolutionary psychologists have basically waded into this and said this
(15:53):
could be an ancient mating ritual. And so then there
was all these really funny studies about whether we're all
peacocks and of like fluffing up our tail feathers to
impress other people. So there's a biological underpinning to this
in that we do want to put our best selves forward.
We want to show off our worth and our attractiveness
to society to both attract a mate but also to
(16:15):
gain social standing. So it's very real, and this isn't
meant to shame anybody because we all do it to
some degree. But we don't need to do it by
buying super yachts. That's not encoded in our DNA send
mine back. So it's sort of society dictates how we
demonstrate our worth, so whether we demonstrate it by designer handbags,
(16:39):
or whether we demonstrate it by acts of kindness or
whatever it might be. So what we're getting to now
is a state where you have the world's wealthiest people.
They emit more than the rest. I mean they emit
more than small countries, all large countries actually, where it
is just this sort of endless consumption of super yachts
and really extreme life styles.
Speaker 7 (17:00):
Looking at you, bezos once you're talking to yeah, in
terms of like establishing just how grim the situation is
with climate change, I think it's important to have like
a real perspective on what that looks like, and what
at the moment, if we're on the current trajectory, where's
the world going to be in fifty years or one
hundred years.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
Yeah, okay, I'm sorry.
Speaker 5 (17:21):
In advance, we've got one million species that are facing extinction.
Sixty nine percent of our wildlife populations are declining by
the year twenty seventy, and this is based on leading
climate science. By the year twenty seven, kids would be
going to school wearing masks. They wouldn't be able to
just play outside. That we would have artificial domes for
(17:43):
the side twenty seventy and if they can make it
to school at all, Because there will be more disasters
than ever before, there'll be more displacements, insurance costs, there
won't be insurance anymore. Insurance will be utterly unaffordable. Leading
insurance have already come out and said that. I mean,
people that don't believe in climate science, you don't really
(18:04):
have to just listen to your insurance company.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
They're saying it.
Speaker 5 (18:06):
They're saying, we cannot ensure these cities anymore because there
are too many disasters and they are too extreme. The
mental health toll on children will be severe.
Speaker 6 (18:16):
And that's not that far away.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
It's not that far away.
Speaker 5 (18:18):
The pollution levels outside it won't be livable for many
parts of the world. We would have some islands that
are already underwater, increase mass migration for millions of people
around the world. We already have one in six people
around the world that die from pollution. This is the
greatest in my mind, this is the greatest human rights
(18:38):
abuse the world has ever experienced.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
And we don't talk about that aspect of it. It is.
Speaker 5 (18:43):
It's because at the moment it's happening to the world's
poorest people, people that are largely invisible, but it is
very real.
Speaker 4 (18:52):
It's also because it's happening in the future. It's not
tangible to anyone right now, Like it's not going to
affect people in our lifetime, but it's our kids and
kids kids, because twenty seventy twenty seventy five is not.
Speaker 6 (19:02):
Very far away.
Speaker 4 (19:03):
Yeah, which is really scary, but you only need to
see like the number of natural disasters we have here
in Australia now compared to even ten years ago. The
natural disasters we just saw and I'm gonna use one
really specifically that was horrific, was just a few weeks
ago was the flash flooding in America that came within
(19:23):
twenty minutes. There was no way and all of the
so many people died, and all these school girls died,
and there was no way that they could have been protected.
Speaker 6 (19:31):
It just happened like that. Stuff never used to happen.
Speaker 4 (19:33):
Of course, flash flooding was a thing, but flash flooding
was a thing when you knew the storms were coming,
when you could predict that it was going to last
this long. Like, these kind of things are setting a
pre sydem for things we have never seen before, and
I can't imagine how much worse that is going to
get in the next twenty thirty forty years.
Speaker 3 (19:48):
I guess the big question though, is is is it
beyond a point where we can correct course?
Speaker 2 (19:54):
No, it's not.
Speaker 5 (19:55):
I mean, I'm not giving up. We know that the
future because the way the greenhouse gas is in accumulate
in the atmosphere, we know that the future will likely
be a bit harder for young people. They're probably that
they will have to live with more climate related disasters.
But we have a huge opportunity to build more resilient
lifestyles to sort of undo a lot of the damage
(20:16):
that we've done, so it's not over.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
But on your point, for I just want to also.
Speaker 5 (20:20):
Adds a huge This is a huge issue, particularly for
women and girls. In times of these climate disasters. We
see rates of domestic violence increase markedly, but we also
see the survival rates of men far outweighing that of women.
So for example, in India during a natural disaster, a
climate disaster, men survived women by four to one, and
(20:41):
it was because women hadn't been taught to swim or
climb trees, so they couldn't escape. And often women will
have kids with them which blows them down a little bit.
So des Yeah, so it is, it's a real issue
for women and girls as well.
Speaker 3 (20:54):
What do you think is the most important steps that
we can take?
Speaker 5 (20:58):
There's quite a lot knowing where you're in pact and
power is. So if you work for a fashion company
and you are I don't know, a buyer, can you
help or you have access to a decision maker, can
you ask them to start shifting some of their supply
chain or getting them to buy from companies that are
more sustainable or have a you know, a real verified
commitment to improving nature or climate outcomes. If you are
(21:22):
a mum. Can you talk to your school and find
out what their education programs are around the environment? Can
you connect in with your community. Is there anything you
can do in your community to get electric vehicle battery
charging stations set up? Can you top it op shops more?
Can you share clothes with your friends more? I think
it's just donating to charities. There are so many incredible
(21:43):
ENGOs doing really important work and they're heavily under resource,
So donating to them. Engaging with politicians, emailing ministers, emailing
brands and just saying why am I receiving this outfit
that is in you know, bucket loads of plastic and
so annoying and it's time consuming and all of those
sort of things. But even if you just make a
(22:03):
daily habit to do one small thing, it starts to
rewire you a little bit and you start to live
it more when you go on like I go on
walks with my mentor we just walk and pick up.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
Rubbish, pick up rubbish on the way. It's just little things.
Just pick up one piece of rubbish when you walk
to the coffee store.
Speaker 5 (22:19):
It's it's just I think it's starting to embed those
habits of just trying to make a small difference, not
feeling overwhelmed. There are seriously the extraordinary efforts that people
are going to to protect nature is so inspiring.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
It really is just starting anywhere you.
Speaker 4 (22:35):
Just mentioned, you know, emailing brands and sort of questioning
what they're doing, how they're doing it. I think that
this is a really good time to go into greenwashing
and talk to us about what green washing is, but
also how we as a consumer can be more hyper
aware and I guess being alert.
Speaker 5 (22:50):
Yeah, So green washing is basically when a company makes
up or overstates their environmental credentials, so you'll see a
green label. It could be as simple as a bottle
that is green with a that says sustainable on it,
or a brand name that's sort of echoes something.
Speaker 6 (23:07):
Like misleaning advertising, yeah.
Speaker 5 (23:09):
Which gives the impression that it's green, or more extreme
examples when you'll see fossil fuel companies saying this is
a friendly oil, you know, stuff like that.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
It can be.
Speaker 5 (23:19):
So there's a whole range of different sorts of green washing,
and one of the problems with that is that it's
just eroded trust with consumers and it's made people think, well,
I'm not even going to try anymore because even when
I do try, it doesn't work.
Speaker 2 (23:31):
So it's a huge disservice to consumers.
Speaker 5 (23:34):
But also now we also have a situation where we're
so on top of green washing that we accuse everybody
of green washing. So it's almost like we need to
give companies a chance to try to improve, but hold
them to account as well.
Speaker 3 (23:48):
I think it's so deeply problematic when a company is
using it as part of their marketing pitch, you know.
And I think there's obviously, like you established these different
levels of it, but in terms of like a marketing
look and feel, it's very easy to look branded as
though you are naturally conservative or you're naturally inclined or
whatever those things are, without actually having to be at all,
(24:09):
Like you said, you know, from like it could be
the fact that just the coloring of the brand and
the tones are earthy and tonal and everything else that
we associate with something being more environmentally conscious. What are
the in terms of packaging or in terms of brand
standards that we should look out for and able to
go okay, well, that one doesn't really conform to what's needed.
Speaker 2 (24:31):
Yeah, it's quite hard so at the moment.
Speaker 5 (24:32):
So if I was going to look at a product
and I was going to dig really deep, I would
go into their sustainability report, and I know not everybody
wants to do that, and I would look at if
they have done things like are they run by renewable energies,
where do they get their products from? Are they starting
to look at their supply chain to see if there's
any deforestation in their supply chain.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
So I would usually try to go look.
Speaker 5 (24:53):
So a lot of them will say we are aiming
for no deforestation in our supply chain, or we do
not invest in fossil fuels. So it's usually the sustainability report,
but even they can be a little bit misleading. What
I think we need to push for, and this is
pushing brands and politicians, is for environmental labeling, so that
in the same way that we look at when we
(25:13):
see new food products and we know exactly what we're eating,
we should see what's their greenhouse gas profile of this product,
how much deforestation was involved? Do they track their supply
chain for human rights abuse? Having product labels like that,
I think we need a lot more transparency. So it
is very difficult for the consumer. But I think we
put in a lot of effort to look at the
sort of trends that are online or find the right outfit.
(25:36):
We can do the same. It just takes a little
bit of effort online.
Speaker 3 (25:38):
I mean people do it now in terms of like
what toxins are in their skincare. Like I wonder if
there's apps that exists for this, because like you can
now scan a skincare barcode and we'll tell you exactly
what's in it in terms of whether it's toxic for
your skin or not toxic. I wonder if there is
an app that exists that allows you to scan products
it tells you, like what's the environmental impact of that product.
Speaker 5 (25:59):
There is a there's also one that's called trace ID
and they I think they work with companies, but the
aim is to basically trace every single product to see
so comportise and start being more transparent about what's in
their product.
Speaker 4 (26:13):
But that just circles back to why it's so much
more important that we have policy changed, not individual change,
because there are so many people that just heard what
you just said about how in depth you need to
go to look at one product and where it's from
and I can just tell people rolling their eyes now
being like, yeah, I'm never going to do that.
Speaker 6 (26:30):
I go online and shop at midnight, I look at.
Speaker 4 (26:33):
Something, I press order, Like there are so many steps
that are then put on the consumer, whereas really the
responsibility should be on the conglomerate or the company to
make the policy changes so that we know that they're
going to be safe and we don't have to spend
half an hour for every single thing that we buy
trolling through it.
Speaker 5 (26:48):
Yeah, I mean it's a fair point, and I agree
to an extent. But individuals can still if we want,
we can do a little bit of research and find
our top five favorite brands that we know, or we
can also just shop a little bit less, go to
an op shop, wear your clothes more than once. A
lot of the time a're shopping to buy clothes to
impress someone that we don't.
Speaker 2 (27:06):
Even like, so can we which is a whole nother battle.
Speaker 3 (27:11):
But also I think it's the standard of clothing though
now as well. I mean, like you know, there used
to be that whole adage of like you buy something
more expensive and it's better quality, and then you wear
it more times, like it's the price point of clothing.
It's become so so disposable. You can buy a T
shirt from km up for fifteen dollars or ten dollars,
and it's like the quality is terrible, so you have
to buy more of that. They're great for a few wears,
(27:32):
you know, but then after a few washes they start
to fall apart, so you have to buy something more.
Speaker 4 (27:36):
But having said that, a lot of the design of
brands are made in the same factory as the cheaper
brands as well, just with a high price point, which
circles back to that being like we're wearing this stuff
for people we don't like or know, Like who are
we trying to impress. We'll take a little pivot to
something very serious.
Speaker 6 (27:54):
The world of chocolate. The decline of chocolate is like
chocolate under threat.
Speaker 2 (27:59):
Yeah, so.
Speaker 5 (28:02):
Yeah, So you see wine, chocolate, olive oil, coffee, You
see their prices, the prices arising everywhere. But those prices
are really spiking, and they are it's because things like
chocolate are directly impacted by climate change and we're already
seeing evidence of that. So chocolate's really interesting because you know,
like Mars incorporated in chocolate their entire business model. All
(28:26):
of their profits are entirely dependent on this one little
insect called a midge. Midges are like the ones that
fly in your mouth if you go for a run.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
They're like those.
Speaker 5 (28:35):
Yeah, they're amazing creatures. They are the only insects that
can pollinate the cacao plant.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
So without them, chocolate doesn't exist.
Speaker 5 (28:45):
So Mars Incorporated is freaking out now and they're trying
to find other ways to pollinate because the midge is
vulnerable to extinction because of climate change and because of deforestation.
So you have these really interesting situation where we have
seven twenty percent of the world's cocoa is developed throughout
West Africa, but they have massive forestation, a lot of
(29:07):
it to make way for chocolate plantations or coco plantations.
They also have climate change which is sort of taking
away the ability for rainforest to be rainforests. And you
have the midge, which is vulnerable to extinction that can't pollinate.
So it's sort of all of these environmental related crises
(29:27):
are happening in West Africa and it's impacting the ability
for us to produce chocolate, which is increasing the prices,
not to mention it's impacting the million hundreds of millions
of people whose lives are dependent on our farm industry.
Speaker 3 (29:40):
Yeah, but in that case, then is it not a
situation where companies have to pay attention because their very
livelihoods are being affected in the sort of round circle moment.
Speaker 5 (29:49):
Yeah, exactly, this is why it's mad. I'm like, I'm
talking about your own survival. When we taught these companies,
they are every single company in the world, every single
one of us. We are dependent on nature. We need
it to breathe, we need it to run our companies.
It's the thing that allows us to live, which baffled
this White baffles me when we argue about it, because
(30:09):
I'm like, how do you think you're staying alive?
Speaker 3 (30:11):
It's you know, I had an interesting conversation with someone recently.
We were doing a renovation right on the house and
we went into a stone supplier where they obviously mind
quarries for stone, and I was talking to my husband
and I was like, it is crazy how much we
take from the earth, Like it is crazy when you
think about all these varieties of stones coming from all
different quarries, and like, as a jeweler, we work with
(30:33):
stones all the time, Like it is not lost on me,
the volume of which is taken from the earth. And
I was talking to the sales rep at this store
which I will not mention the store name, but it's
a massive distributor of stone. She was like, Oh, yeah,
they mine the quarry and then once they've taken it out,
they close it so it can regenerate. And I was like,
do you have any concept of how long it takes
(30:54):
to regenerate a stone quarry. I was like, it doesn't.
It doesn't regenerate. They've just taken everything out of it.
There's nothing left, and then they move on to another area.
Speaker 6 (31:00):
They're letting it regenerate.
Speaker 3 (31:02):
But this is the thing, like, we don't have this
unlimited source, and I think we still live in an
era where we're treating as though the sources are unlimited
and that we can just keep digging further down and
find more and more and more.
Speaker 2 (31:14):
Yeah, and we can't.
Speaker 5 (31:16):
We've already actually, I mean this is a bit negative,
but so I think it was four days ago we
reached Earth Overshoot Day, and that's essentially when at the
time of the it's the time of the year when
we've already used up all of the yearly resources for nature.
So now it's sort of this we're in overdraw. So
we've taken too much. So if everybody's months of debt, yeah, basically,
(31:36):
but that's accumulated. So if everybody on the planet lived
like Australia did, we'd need four and.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
A half planet earths just to sustain us.
Speaker 5 (31:44):
So we are just taking far, far more than the
Earth can allow for. And we have a growing population
as well, so we are we're going to have to
live really differently and also support innovations that I mean,
there's huge even in the fashion industry, there's huge innovations
that are allowing us to think about what sort of
materials we're using and if we can use materials that
(32:05):
are extracting less from nature.
Speaker 2 (32:07):
So there's a lot that can be done.
Speaker 3 (32:09):
You talk about something called the cute curse with animals,
especially in terms of like social media. What is that
and what is like what is the problem or I
guess like the reasons why the cute curse is such
an issue.
Speaker 5 (32:20):
Yeah, I don't know if you guys ever saw there
was a video of a slow lorius on Instagram. It's
like this primate, it's a primate from South East Asia
and it had its arms in the air. It's really
on the big eyes, yeah, and it had its arms
in the air. Someone was tickling it under the arms
and everybody loved this video. They thought it was adorable.
It was called tickling a slow lorss. What happened was
(32:42):
everybody then wanted a pet slow lorus, so the clip
went viral.
Speaker 2 (32:47):
It's all these videos of cute.
Speaker 5 (32:49):
Wild animals being tickled, and we've found out later that
having its arms in there meant that it was in
extreme distress. It wasn't being cute, was traumatized. But then
everybody went out and tried to get their own pet
slow loris and wanted to buy them, so poaching increased.
They're now in an endangered species because coaches in the
(33:10):
area or traffickers would take them, send them around the
world and ship them to people as pets. And that's
the thing with social media sometimes it glamorizes, especially cute animals.
We're not appreciating them in the wild. We want them
for ourselves as pets and they so even when I see,
you know, there's gorgeous videos of somebody cuddling orangutans, and
I just think That's not how orangutans are meant to live.
(33:32):
They're meant to be wild. We are not meant to
be touching them. As much as you want them as
a pet. It's not great for them.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
I mean, we've all seen tiger king. We know how
it goes. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (33:41):
But also there's such an interesting, like alternate take on
that where we value the existence of some animals over
others because they're cute. You know, we care more about whales,
or we care more about koalas, or we care more
about like specific animals that are going extinct more than
we care about insects or things that have you know, Midge,
you know, like yeah, overarchingly, I don't think that there's
(34:02):
many people who are going to listen to this podcast
who have thought about Amdge this week, you know, whereas
they might have thought about another animal that's either large
of scale or is very adorable, and there feels like
a greater tragedy to have an earth without that animal.
Speaker 5 (34:15):
So I'm an ugly animal activist. Can I tell you? Sorry,
I get so excited. Can I tell you about the vulture?
Speaker 1 (34:22):
Great?
Speaker 2 (34:22):
Yeah, So in.
Speaker 5 (34:24):
India they have vultures and everybody hates vultures because like, well,
first of all, they piss on their own legs to
keep cool, which isn't very attractive. But they also eat
rotting carcasses, so you know, they're not in beauty magazines
like the panda.
Speaker 4 (34:37):
You think of them from the Lion King. Yeah, the
Lion King sort of made them famous, I guess.
Speaker 5 (34:43):
And they're not known to be like super cute or
sexy or anything like that. But anyway, they have the
most incredible role. So in India, their population started declining
and they declined by ninety percent, so they were plummeting
towards extinction and no one could figure out why. And
then after a few years they realized that it was
actually a veterory drug that was being used in cattle.
(35:04):
And then when the vultures were eating the dead cattle,
they were getting sick and dying. But in that period
where vultures hit near extinction, it caused the deaths of
five hundred thousand people in India and cost the economy.
I think it was around thirty billion dollars. And that's
because vultures are nature's clean up crew. They play a
really important role when they clean up the rotting carcasses.
(35:25):
They're also preventing the spread of disease and rabies outbreaks,
and they're controlling other populations. So without them, it actually
severely impacted human health and cost the Indian government a
huge amount of money. So these amazing species, we might
think they're ugly, but we should still see an advocate
for these ugly animals because the role they play is
(35:46):
just incredible.
Speaker 4 (35:47):
But then there's that adage of like one species goes extinct,
it doesn't matter what it is, and the entire food
change changes, the entire world changes, and that's like a
crime example of why every single species we have is
so imperative.
Speaker 2 (36:00):
Absolutely.
Speaker 3 (36:00):
What ended up being the flow on effect of that story,
what did the Indian government do to step in?
Speaker 5 (36:05):
So they banned the drug that was being used by vets.
Vets complied straight away, obviously they care about animals, and
now the vulture populations are rebounding. There are so many
success stories, even the humpback whale, they were plummeting towards
extinction and now we get to see them all the time.
There are so many success stories that are really incredible
of people that are just policymakers working with volunteers and
(36:28):
activists and NGOs that are turning things around.
Speaker 3 (36:31):
You have a lot of fun anecdotes in your book,
and I know it's something you've even in this episode
as you're speaking about it, you've said it a few
times like, I don't want this to be doom and gloom.
I feel like you can't talk about climate change without
it being doom and gloom. And I kind of think
that we would be doing a disservice to the conversation
without having those conversations. And I think anyone who deeply
cares about climate change who's listening to it, or people
(36:53):
who want to be more educated, would feel like if
it's missed opportunity if we didn't have those more serious chats.
But you do talk about a lot of lighthearted stuff
in the book as well that you've written. One of
those things is an ejaculation helmet. The other one is
talking about Bonobo's with bulging clittericies. Why, in terms of
your approach to climate change, has it been so important
for you to try to not make it too heavy.
Speaker 2 (37:16):
I don't want people to give up.
Speaker 5 (37:17):
I don't want them and I can see when I
talk to people, you know, when you mentioned climate change
or mentioned nature, and.
Speaker 2 (37:24):
They just sort of doze off a little bit. I
don't want that.
Speaker 5 (37:28):
I think to really make change, you need to fall
in love a little bit, and so part of that
means finding the joy, finding something that you feel connected to,
and also feeling like it's not so overwhelming that you
can't do anything. So the reason I wrote this book
is because I wanted it to be the sort of
book that can make nature feel mainstream, like, not something
where I say it in people like, oh, she must
(37:50):
like hugging trees. I'm not into nature. I wanted to
have stories in there that could really appeal to anybody
in everybody, whether you're a farmer, or you're a teacher,
you're a hairdresser, or you're a university student.
Speaker 2 (38:01):
It should be able to appeal to anybody.
Speaker 5 (38:03):
So I cover a lot of There's a lot of
tragic stories in there, but also there's a lot of
funny stories and inspiring stories and lists of things that
people can do to take action, and a lot of
weird stories. So what I like to do is find
weird stories and then connect that into a bigger themes.
Speaker 6 (38:21):
Like Pablo Escapa and cocaine hyposh.
Speaker 5 (38:25):
Yeah, So did you want me, I mean, did you
want me to tell you about the ejaculation.
Speaker 3 (38:29):
Yeah, I think I can say ejaculation helmet and then
not get a clarification on that.
Speaker 1 (38:33):
Just people like you left us hanging with that one.
Speaker 2 (38:36):
Okay.
Speaker 5 (38:36):
So there is a parrot in New Zealand. It's called
the kakapor and it's the world's heaviest parrot and it
also is the only one that can't fly, so it's
the heavy flightless Yeah, and it's so it's so funny looking.
So it's this huge flightless parrot. There's only two hundred
and fifty left in the wild, so their population is
in crisis. So scientists are going to extreme lengths to
(38:59):
try and say them. But the problem is the male carcopause.
Their mating strategy isn't great. They sort of like waddle
up a hill together and then start balowing into the
dirt and hope that the females will come to them,
and the females don't.
Speaker 4 (39:12):
Yeah, shocking, shocking, So then females like go away. It's
good evolutionary skills, like surely you'd think as a species. Okay,
we've been trying this for a couple of hundred years,
let's try something different.
Speaker 5 (39:24):
Yeah, they So what they've started doing is humping. They
try to mate with other things. Sometimes they'll mate with
other species of birds, but a few times they've tried
to mate with human heads. And so the karkapor became
famous because I think there was this BBC clip where
the krkabu started humping a TV presenter's head.
Speaker 2 (39:43):
And it's a.
Speaker 5 (39:44):
Huge bird anyway, how just jumped up on its head
and started flapping about.
Speaker 3 (39:49):
Did the presenter realize that it was mating or did
they come.
Speaker 2 (39:52):
Like yeah, yeah, and I've got millions of views.
Speaker 5 (39:56):
And they had a heading like world's heaviest par shag's head.
So then scientists in New Zealand from the Department of Conservation,
they're so amazing. They were like, okay, well, if he
wants a human head, then a human head he she'll have.
And so they got this scientist called Kate mcinniss. She
built an ejaculation helbert. But she was like, okay, I
(40:17):
need to get the right helmet because this is a
really heavy parrot. So she went and got a rugby
helmet and turned it into an ejaculation helmet, which is
essentially a helmet of condoms. And then she ventured into
the forest and just waited for a carcopor to come
and hump.
Speaker 2 (40:32):
Her head and then took the sperm.
Speaker 5 (40:33):
Yeah, and she says she just sat there for hours,
getting her head and via getting her head bunked by
this carcoport. But it's also she's like, it was quite
difficult because not only are the world's heaviest parrot, but
they also have sex for a really long time, longer
than most birds, so you can go for an hour. Yeah,
and it didn't work.
Speaker 2 (40:53):
Oh I didn't. I thought this was gonna have a
great success.
Speaker 1 (40:56):
No, I didn't want that is devastating. That is devastation.
Speaker 2 (41:00):
But just the heroism of that woman.
Speaker 3 (41:02):
She really tried. Also, you, I don't know if i'd
share that. I don't know if if it didn't, if
if it worked, if it worked, I would tell the story.
But it didn't work, So I think that I would
take that to my grave.
Speaker 6 (41:13):
Was thinking about having your head fucked for hours on
and don't.
Speaker 5 (41:15):
Yeah, Well they put the helmet in the museum, so
it's a national treasure.
Speaker 2 (41:19):
Now.
Speaker 4 (41:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (41:20):
I actually read on instid O the day that sloths
just like male No female sloss like climb down the
tree and then scream until the mate.
Speaker 1 (41:27):
Comes to them. And I was like, that sounds like me,
my husband do this.
Speaker 3 (41:32):
I was like, maybe it's not all terrible like, but
it does sound like some animals really are not helping
themselves out when it comes to how they're reproducing.
Speaker 5 (41:39):
Yeah, you have some species like the ibis, which is
considered a generalist species, and you know they're the bin chickens.
Speaker 2 (41:45):
They thrive like they've managed to get they adapt and thrive.
And then other.
Speaker 5 (41:48):
Species like the koala, they're specialist species, so they can
only live on a specialty arrangement of conditions, so they
don't thrive.
Speaker 4 (41:57):
Now, in your book, you labeled the bonobo and it's
clitterus a feminist icon. Now, I don't think people would
put those things in the same sentence.
Speaker 6 (42:05):
Generally speaking. Talk to us about why this clitteress is
a feminist icon.
Speaker 2 (42:09):
Okay, this is my favorite topic.
Speaker 5 (42:11):
So, bernobos are one of our closest living relatives. They
look like a chimp, so we share most of our
DNA with them, but essentially they're really different. Their communities
are different to chimp community. So Chimp communities are really violent.
They demolish each other. Bernobo communities are really peaceful and
they live in solidarity and the women are equal, if
(42:31):
not dominant, over men. And the reason for that is
because of their big bulging clitteresses that they actually waggle
when they walk.
Speaker 2 (42:40):
So theva I.
Speaker 1 (42:42):
Just give it a little bit.
Speaker 2 (42:42):
They choose is something the time of a life and no.
Speaker 5 (42:44):
One yeah, so what their bernobos do. The females rub
their clitteresses together, and it's a form of bonding and
it has become so beneficial to their species that they've
evolved giant clitteresses because some people say it allows them
to overthrow the men of their species, but essentially it's
seen as a way to have social cohesion in their society.
(43:06):
So bernobos are a peaceful society because they rub their
clittericsies together. And now people are studying it and studying
like workplace relations and team building and like women's roles.
Speaker 2 (43:18):
So like you guys could do it if you.
Speaker 6 (43:21):
Why it was about. They don't even think about it.
Speaker 3 (43:24):
Or imagine if someone came to work and said, I
know the way to make this more harmonious workplace.
Speaker 1 (43:28):
We could all rub our querences on each other and
will be great.
Speaker 3 (43:30):
You go to prison, you would, yeah, unfortunately, think it
goes again some of the workplace stand at the moment.
Speaker 6 (43:35):
But I think this is a look at this picture.
Speaker 4 (43:37):
When you're saying they're the closest to us in terms
of DNA history. That literally looks like an AI human.
It is that you guys need to google this. That
is incredible that literally even the musculature of that animal
looks like a human.
Speaker 5 (43:52):
They're also really interesting because they're upending our understanding of
male female relationships and all of evolution. So ch Darwin,
he had the theory of evolution and the way that
we have come to understand it is that male species
are dominant. Men are dominant and tough, and women are weak.
And we're actually uncovering a huge amount of bias because
(44:12):
Charles Darwin was hampered by his own bias. He was
living in Victorian era England where women weren't really allowed
to vote or have bank accounts, they weren't permitted into
any of the major scientific institutions or anything like that.
So he only looked at the males of the species
and completely overlooked the females of the species. He called
the females of the species wives said there were less
(44:32):
than men, and so that's come to shape what we
think about men and women today. So there's this group
of amazing female scientists that are going around studying the
females of species. So it was female scientists that discovered
the clitoris in bernobos and that are looking into, okay,
what can we learn about women? And then a bunch
of ossie women for ossie women, discovered that snakes have clits.
Speaker 2 (44:53):
And that is.
Speaker 5 (44:54):
Despite all of so most of the researchers for snakes
and men, they never found the clip.
Speaker 2 (45:01):
It was also not shocking even didn't even think to.
Speaker 1 (45:05):
Look for it. What they were looking for. That's why
what's that.
Speaker 5 (45:09):
Women came in found the snake's clip. And now we're saying, okay,
let's study more female species because we've only studied the
males of species and we're.
Speaker 2 (45:17):
Like, oh, look it's a wolf, it's a wolf back.
Men are like wolves.
Speaker 5 (45:20):
We haven't studied orchist societies where we can see women
and the powerful role they play and what we can
learn from that in human society.
Speaker 4 (45:27):
There's heaps of animal species we've discovered in our fun
fact animal facts that we do here on life and
cart heaps of female species just like kill their spouse
when they're done. But it is interesting to hear that
I've never actually heard anyone say Darwin was sexist.
Speaker 2 (45:41):
Yeah, yeah, he was.
Speaker 3 (45:42):
Really sexist, But he was very sexist at the time,
Like I mean in terms of the society and the Yeah.
Speaker 4 (45:47):
Still that's all we learned as kids his generation. Like
it's pretty.
Speaker 3 (45:50):
Impactful, but it also isn't surprising when you think about
it in terms of, like even from like a medical perspective,
Like so much research is done on how medicines or
treatments or whatever it is affect men in general under
our human and animal men, but like there's so much
skew in terms of like research that's done on how
it affects men verse. Like now it's like we've woken
up to the idea of like, oh, but actually how
(46:12):
women respond to this is different, and now we have
to go back.
Speaker 4 (46:14):
Yeah, but I feel like there's a few like stand
out characters in society that generally speaking, you trust. Darwin
was one, and for me, he was always when I
really trusted.
Speaker 6 (46:24):
And I don't know how I feel about it now. Yeah, Okay,
probably not. It's like literally everything I've learned as a kid.
Speaker 5 (46:29):
Has just been it's every he contributed a huge amount.
Speaker 2 (46:33):
It's just understanding that he sort of forgot the clitterist
find the clip. Yeah, he couldn't find the clip. That's
so funny.
Speaker 6 (46:42):
That does check out though?
Speaker 4 (46:43):
Is like because as women like generally speaking in the
day to day obviously not in same sex.
Speaker 6 (46:48):
Relationships, but we don't rub our clits together.
Speaker 4 (46:50):
I do wonder if maybe would have, we would have
had bigger clitteristes, if men.
Speaker 6 (46:56):
Spent more time finding them and more time on them.
Speaker 5 (47:00):
Maybe that's the research. This is the start of a movement. Matt,
thank you so much for coming in.
Speaker 4 (47:06):
Is there anything else that you feel is really imperative
and important that you might not have been able to
touch on in this conversation.
Speaker 2 (47:12):
I think we cover.
Speaker 4 (47:16):
It was pretty We're gonna put show notes if you
guys want to go and find out more. It's an
incredible book. We're gonna put all the links in our
show notes, so please go and find NAT's Instagram, buy
the book, read it for yourself, have the conversations with friends,
find out what more you can do.
Speaker 6 (47:31):
In your own life, and don't be so overwhelmed that
you think.
Speaker 4 (47:35):
One little change that you're contributing is not enough, because
if there's anything we've learned today, it definitely is.
Speaker 6 (47:40):
Thanks Nat, Thank you,
This episode was recorded on Cameragle Land. Hi guys, and
welcome back to another episode of Life on Cut.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
I'm Laura, I'm Brittany.
Speaker 3 (00:16):
Now we have an interview that's a little bit left
of field for Life on Cut, being that normally we
talk about relationships, and normally we talk about things like
relationships with you know, romantic partners or your parents, maybe situationship.
But today we're talking about climate And the reason for
that is because I feel like it's one of those
topics that everyone has a general concern or anxiety about,
(00:36):
unless you're a climate denier, but like, don't put your
hand up if you are. But it's something that a
lot of us have a lot of feelings about. But
it's also that thing that kind of gets parked because
it's a little bit too hard basket, and it also
feels like it's quite in the future. It also feels
like it's a problem that's so big that it's almost
insurmountable to tackle on an individual level, when it seems
like government should be doing so much more. But in
(00:58):
this instance, I mean during the last election, it was
discussed so highly how much people care about what is
happening in terms of politics and climate and the real
question is is how fucked are we actually when it
comes to climate change.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
So we're going to tell you doom.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
No, we're joking.
Speaker 3 (01:15):
Hopefully it's not just doom and gloom. But we have
Nat Kuriako here. Nat has just written a book. It's
called Nature's Last Dance and Nat is an award winning environmentalist, writer,
public speaker and company director. She was awarded the Medal
of the Order of Australia and the Forbes thirty under
thirty just have some more accolades. Why don't you on
offer her service to wildlife and environmental conservation in twenty eighteen.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
Nat, Welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 4 (01:40):
Nat. We are going to get into some i mean
some lighthearted stuff and some very serious stuff. But before
we do, we kickstart with accidentally Unfiltered. So your most
embarrassing story? What have you got for us?
Speaker 5 (01:50):
I've got quite a few, but one of them that's
I guess sort of appropriate. I think I think the
Prime Minister, well, the Prime Minister thinks I do vaginal steaming, Like.
Speaker 6 (02:00):
That's all you need to say.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
That's fine. Also, why does Albo know if you do
you don't.
Speaker 5 (02:05):
Oh, it was a series of unfortunate events. But for
some reason, he follows me on Instagram. I don't.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
I don't know why.
Speaker 6 (02:11):
And because he thinks you vaginal steam that's why.
Speaker 5 (02:14):
And sometimes, like a lot of the time, I post
really smart stuff, policy stuff, environmental stuff, but sometimes I
post things about sex, wildlife sex or you know, other things,
and he always sees the inappropriate ones.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
He never sees a smart post.
Speaker 5 (02:28):
But one day I went and did an ice bath
and then I made a joke that I now do
vaginal steaming, and nobody got the joke. So then I
got all of these Instagram messages saying that asking like
if I really do vaginal steaming, it's not good for
your vagina, And then people like you meant to like
sort of crouch over a bucket with essential oils, and
it was really weird. But anyway, the Prime Minister was
(02:49):
the first person to see that video. And then I
panicked because I was like, oh god, I don't want
him to think I do vaginal steaming, or I don't
want all of these policy makers follow me, and I'm like,
I don't want them to think I do vaginal steaming.
So then I tried to correct it by letting everyone
know that I actually don't do vaginal steaming, and then
I just went down this rabbit hole where I started
explaining to people why vaginal steaming isn't bad. You should
(03:11):
I could have just deleted the story. Yeah, yeah, I
didn't even think to delete the story. There was six
posts and me just talking about vaginal steaming, and he
watched every single one of them, and so it was
so funny.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
You know what's funny.
Speaker 3 (03:23):
You know what's funny when you see like someone's love
hearted a story.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
I'm just imagining albow being like.
Speaker 4 (03:27):
Well done with the heart, no, the hard eyes, and
it like flotters up in the air.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
There you are in an absolutely fucking mental spiral.
Speaker 4 (03:35):
What is it that made you passionate about the environment
and sort of go down this track in the first place?
Speaker 5 (03:40):
I mean a few things, all the regular stuff. I
spent my childhood outdoors camping all the time. He used
to go camping with my family every second weekend, and
then on the weekends we didn't, Dad would pitch a
tent in our backyard and we would camp outside and
pretend we were in a rainforest and there were bears
and things, but there was a pretty standout moment for me.
I spent a few months living in the Bornean jungle
(04:02):
working in an orangutan rehabilitation center, and that experience was
pretty life changing for me. I had an orangutan steel
my underwear, Like I got into a tugga wall contest
with the orangutan, and I've got photos of this orangutan
wearing my underwear around his neck. And that was the
moment you knew, And that was the moment I knew,
this is my new path, this is this is where
I'm going. Yeah. I think it was just a combination
(04:24):
of just really giving a shit. I really cared about
the environment. I saw it as a human rights issue.
I loved animals, I loved wildlife. I wanted to have
a nice planet for everybody to live on spend a
lot of time outdoors. But then I got to have
these really incredible experiences, both in Australia and abroad, where
I was sort of seeing firsthand some of the destruction
(04:44):
but also the joys of nature. So I wanted to
protect that.
Speaker 3 (04:48):
Do you think in terms of like where we are
in Australia and in terms of like the government's perspective
and policies around it. Are we doing enough or are
you of the thought process that like actually had towards
a real disaster.
Speaker 5 (05:01):
I mean, things aren't great. It hasn't been a good year.
I don't think the government's doing nearly enough. I've been
quite disappointed with their policies or their lack of policies.
I think there are some countries, there are a few
countries in Europe that are I mean, doing really well,
and we've got a lot to learn from.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
So I don't think, I mean, we're not in a
great state.
Speaker 5 (05:20):
I don't want to say we're heading towards disaster, but
we sort of are heading towards disaster, but we can
stop it. I mean, there are so many, so many
stories of the most incredible people, grassroots communities, NGOs, policymakers
doing like truly phenomenal things to protect nature, to try
to limit the effects of climate change, of young people
who have really loud voices now and who are doing
(05:43):
incredible work to change laws for example.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
So it's not all doom and gloom. There's amazing stories.
Speaker 5 (05:49):
But no, our government is not nearly meeting its responsibility,
particularly to future generations.
Speaker 3 (05:54):
Do you think that that's a bit of an age
disparity in the conversation and that young people are the
ones taking it far more seriously than say, our past generations.
Speaker 5 (06:02):
Yeah, I mean I think we have people environmentalists of
all generations, but I think young people, well, they were
born into a society that had largely accepted the science
of climate change. And they're also the generation that is
most heavily impacted by climate change and by nature destruction,
so they know that their futures will be bleaker unless
(06:23):
we stop this, so they're more engaged.
Speaker 4 (06:25):
Yeah, and it's also just exposure to different levels of education.
Like our parents' generation, well you knew things were damaging.
They don't have the research that we have now. They
don't have the evidence that they have now, and the
accessibility to new information what other countries are doing. They
didn't have that, so there was nothing to compare it to,
and nothing, for want of a better term, like to five.
(06:46):
For there's been five mass extinctions in our lifetime, all
caused by natural things.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
And not in our lifetime.
Speaker 4 (06:51):
Sorry, in the world since the world's conception not humans
before humans prehistoric.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
So I used that in our lifetime.
Speaker 3 (06:59):
I was like, I'm in the last thirty seven years prehistoric, like.
Speaker 6 (07:03):
In the world's lifetime.
Speaker 4 (07:06):
There are a lot of people that I don't know
if it's a scare tactic that people are using. I
don't know how much truth to it is. There are
a lot of people that are saying we are heading
towards another extinction. From your research, what do you think
about that?
Speaker 5 (07:17):
Yeah, so, I mean Earth has existed for over four
and a half billion years. The five extinctions, the last
one was the most famous. That's when dinosaurs went extinct,
and that was about sixty six million years ago. Most
scientists now say we are in the midst of a
sixth mass extinction, which does sound quite scary.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
But how you differ, No ideal is that it's not good.
Speaker 5 (07:39):
So what it actually means is when seventy five around
seventy five percent of species of life on Earth becomes
extinct in a small amount of time.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
But a small amount of time in life.
Speaker 5 (07:50):
On Earth is about two million years or two or
three millionaires, So the rate we haven't reached seventy five percent,
So seventy five percent of our species on Earth have
not gone extinct, but the rate in which they have
gone extinct.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
That's the problem.
Speaker 5 (08:03):
It's been in the last two hundred years, so we're
talking Normally, changes happen over millions and millions of years.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
Humanity is sort of it's like expedited now.
Speaker 5 (08:13):
Yes, And all of the previous mass extinctions were caused
by natural events, so volcanoes, asteroids. Here, it's the exception
in the sixth mass extinction, it's humanity that's causing it.
We are the only species in the history of life
on Earth to cause a mass extinction event and destroy
life on Earth to such an extent.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
Sorry, I'm not good at dinner parties.
Speaker 6 (08:36):
It's not fun, but.
Speaker 4 (08:38):
I think it's I mean, it is scary because it
is easy to say that, yeah, we have a history
of it, it's a natural part of life's evolution.
Speaker 6 (08:44):
But yeah, it hasn't happened before where we've done it
to ourselves.
Speaker 5 (08:47):
I find it really funny because we are the only
species to actually debate whether or not we should maintain
the conditions necessary for our own survival. And people say,
you know, extinction is natural, and that's also true. So
extinction has always existed, but usually it's one species goes
extinct per million species. Now with humans, it's one thousand
(09:09):
to ten thousand species per million, so the rate of
extinction is thousands of times higher than the natural rate.
Speaker 2 (09:15):
So that's the problem I.
Speaker 3 (09:17):
Think for a lot of people though, And I mean,
I don't want to bottle everyone into the same sort
of group, but it feels like it's one of those
problems that are so big and that there is so
much to it, but it doesn't feel like it's something
that can be contributed to on an individual level.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
And I know we're all kind of we're all kind
of led to believe.
Speaker 3 (09:34):
Recycle reduce your plastic wasts, But then when you actually
get into the nitty gritty of in terms of like
what huge mining companies are doing, or manufacturing companies, or
what the governments are doing on large scale, it doesn't
really feel like sorting your paper from your plastic is
actually going to be enough to make any indent change
at all. Do you think that this is something that
sits on an individual responsibility or is it something that
(09:56):
has to be overaarchingly policy change.
Speaker 5 (10:00):
One of my biggest pet peeves was when a lot
of the oil and gas companies came out and started
telling everybody it was their individual responsibility, because what they
were essentially doing is saying, we're going to continue our
business as usual, but it's up to you to, you know,
not drive your car so much, and I just thought
that's crap. Of course, all individuals have a responsibility. We
should all try and work in our own ways and
(10:21):
use our own power to make change. And I can
talk about how soon, but it really we need to
change these underlying systems that create harm. And we have
companies in Australia who know fossil fuel companies who are
able to dictate what policies get through in government. They
have a huge amount of influence over a government. We
have companies that are sort of breaking laws, polluting lands,
(10:43):
harming people, yet we're still saying, okay, no, this is
up to the individual. That eleven year old girl isn't
recycling her coffee cup properly, and I just don't think
that's fair. We all have a role, but some people
and some organizations have an outsized role and outsized impacts.
So my focus is how do we change these systems?
How can we change our political systems to have more integrity,
(11:04):
to look after young people, protect young people. How do
we change our economic systems, so we don't have an
economy that is based on endless consumption and endless production.
So I'm really focused more on systems rather than saying, oh, no,
that twelve year old girl, it's all her fault because
she hasn't recycled.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
Well, it's funny that you like even mentioned the coffee
cup debates. So I would have been like five years
ago now where like every single influencer online or people
were like yelling at each other about people not using
keep cups.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
Does I remember this?
Speaker 3 (11:33):
It was when Keea cups first came in and there
was this rule like you can't be seen on social
media not using a keep cup because if you were,
then you were the problem. And it's like, I understand
that that all is helpful, and by no means am
I trying to disregard the efforts that are made on
an individual level. But it feels as though when you
don't have a person to target, we target individuals. We
say well that's the problem, rather than being like, actually, collectively,
(11:57):
but it's much greater than what the individual person can do.
Speaker 4 (11:59):
Thedview vials are the problems as well. It's just that
that can make a small dent in a bigger problem.
It's the big conglomerates that are going to make the
huge amount of change. But that's not to say that
each individual, like everything adds up. A lot of people
think that I'm just one person, what can I do.
It's the same idea as if you're like, how can
I help this charity.
Speaker 6 (12:16):
I don't have any money. All I can give is
a dollar. If a billion people gave one dollar, that's
a billion dollars. So it is the same idea.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
Absolutely agree, it's both, it's all of it.
Speaker 5 (12:26):
My focus is on more on systems, but we need
individual action and it does play a huge role. It's
interesting what the shaming things? Really interesting because I agree
with you, but there are cases. So in Europe, flight
shaming is a thing where you're sort of shamed for
flying too much in aeroplanes and.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
It has worked and people opt.
Speaker 5 (12:47):
For I mean, they have better train systems, but people
opt to catch the train and they can reduce their
emissions easier. So I don't really encourage people to shame.
But if we do encourage these sort of positive behaviors
at an individual level, that can need to systems change
because what we see is cultural shifts, and that's really
really important.
Speaker 3 (13:04):
I mean we see it with all celebrities now as well,
this whole like you know, people tracking flights and understanding
the carbon footprint of what individual celebrities or powerful people
are able to have.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
We have such a huge.
Speaker 3 (13:17):
Female audience, like our listenership, and I know that one
of the leading contributors, I wouldn't say leader, but a
huge contributor is the fashion industry. What are the impacts
that the fashion industry is having on climate change?
Speaker 5 (13:29):
Yeah, so fashion overall contributes about ten percent of global
greenhouse gases to the atmosphere.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
It's enormous.
Speaker 5 (13:38):
My T shirt, just this T shirt, seven thousand Leaders
of Water we used to make it. It's about three kilograms
of carbon dioxide were emitted. And that's not including the
packaging that it came in or the transport one.
Speaker 2 (13:51):
For one T shirt.
Speaker 5 (13:51):
You're also all of the chemicals that are used to
make it. They end up bleaching into waterways and impacting
marine habitats and marine life. So everything that we wear
it has an impact. And that's not to say that
you need to, you know, sit in your bedroom nude
and crying, but it's just understanding that everything we use
has an impact, and we consume at an enormous rate,
(14:14):
like far beyond anything.
Speaker 2 (14:16):
Any of our sort of predecessors consumed.
Speaker 5 (14:18):
We don't need wardrobes, you know, are filled with hundreds
of different outfits with their tags still on them.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
We don't need that. So we need to be rethinking.
Speaker 5 (14:27):
And I think we were seeing this movement now, But
how can we share clothes more? How can we reuse
clothes more? Can we make op shops call that's.
Speaker 6 (14:34):
My next question.
Speaker 4 (14:35):
It's perfect leading, but about conspicuous consumption and how it
shows up in our day to day life.
Speaker 6 (14:39):
But you've just made me realize.
Speaker 4 (14:40):
And I don't quote me on this, but I believe
it was Japan that not that long ago brought in
like a travel clothes swap where you could go to
Japan and you don't have to travel with clothes. You
can go to a store there that gives you, like
let loans you the clothes while you're there, then you
loan it back. And so the idea is you're you're
not buying as much, need to travel with as much,
(15:00):
I need to take as much.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
That's cool.
Speaker 6 (15:02):
Yeah, I have a look at it.
Speaker 4 (15:03):
But yeah, anyway, back to conspicuous consumption, talk to us
about how that shows up in our day to day life.
Speaker 5 (15:08):
So conspicuous consumption, it's a term that was coined by
this guy called Thorston Veblin, and basically he said that
wealth and it's not enough just to have wealth and power.
You must put it into evidence because wealth and power
are only really important once they're seen. So it's that
you're were, Yeah, So it's like it's wealth and consumption activism.
Really like it's peacocking but around your consumption habits, which
(15:31):
when you think about it, it's quite a strange thing.
But you see, like if you on dating apps, might
be guys that are sort of casually reclined in a
first class lounge or leaning against a Porsche, or showing
off their wealth, or it might be designer handbags on Instagram,
whatever it might be, it's demonstrating your desirability. And so
evolutionary psychologists have basically waded into this and said this
(15:53):
could be an ancient mating ritual. And so then there
was all these really funny studies about whether we're all
peacocks and of like fluffing up our tail feathers to
impress other people. So there's a biological underpinning to this
in that we do want to put our best selves forward.
We want to show off our worth and our attractiveness
to society to both attract a mate but also to
(16:15):
gain social standing. So it's very real, and this isn't
meant to shame anybody because we all do it to
some degree. But we don't need to do it by
buying super yachts. That's not encoded in our DNA send
mine back. So it's sort of society dictates how we
demonstrate our worth, so whether we demonstrate it by designer handbags,
(16:39):
or whether we demonstrate it by acts of kindness or
whatever it might be. So what we're getting to now
is a state where you have the world's wealthiest people.
They emit more than the rest. I mean they emit
more than small countries, all large countries actually, where it
is just this sort of endless consumption of super yachts
and really extreme life styles.
Speaker 7 (17:00):
Looking at you, bezos once you're talking to yeah, in
terms of like establishing just how grim the situation is
with climate change, I think it's important to have like
a real perspective on what that looks like, and what
at the moment, if we're on the current trajectory, where's
the world going to be in fifty years or one
hundred years.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
Yeah, okay, I'm sorry.
Speaker 5 (17:21):
In advance, we've got one million species that are facing extinction.
Sixty nine percent of our wildlife populations are declining by
the year twenty seventy, and this is based on leading
climate science. By the year twenty seven, kids would be
going to school wearing masks. They wouldn't be able to
just play outside. That we would have artificial domes for
(17:43):
the side twenty seventy and if they can make it
to school at all, Because there will be more disasters
than ever before, there'll be more displacements, insurance costs, there
won't be insurance anymore. Insurance will be utterly unaffordable. Leading
insurance have already come out and said that. I mean,
people that don't believe in climate science, you don't really
(18:04):
have to just listen to your insurance company.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
They're saying it.
Speaker 5 (18:06):
They're saying, we cannot ensure these cities anymore because there
are too many disasters and they are too extreme. The
mental health toll on children will be severe.
Speaker 6 (18:16):
And that's not that far away.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
It's not that far away.
Speaker 5 (18:18):
The pollution levels outside it won't be livable for many
parts of the world. We would have some islands that
are already underwater, increase mass migration for millions of people
around the world. We already have one in six people
around the world that die from pollution. This is the
greatest in my mind, this is the greatest human rights
(18:38):
abuse the world has ever experienced.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
And we don't talk about that aspect of it. It is.
Speaker 5 (18:43):
It's because at the moment it's happening to the world's
poorest people, people that are largely invisible, but it is
very real.
Speaker 4 (18:52):
It's also because it's happening in the future. It's not
tangible to anyone right now, Like it's not going to
affect people in our lifetime, but it's our kids and
kids kids, because twenty seventy twenty seventy five is not.
Speaker 6 (19:02):
Very far away.
Speaker 4 (19:03):
Yeah, which is really scary, but you only need to
see like the number of natural disasters we have here
in Australia now compared to even ten years ago. The
natural disasters we just saw and I'm gonna use one
really specifically that was horrific, was just a few weeks
ago was the flash flooding in America that came within
(19:23):
twenty minutes. There was no way and all of the
so many people died, and all these school girls died,
and there was no way that they could have been protected.
Speaker 6 (19:31):
It just happened like that. Stuff never used to happen.
Speaker 4 (19:33):
Of course, flash flooding was a thing, but flash flooding
was a thing when you knew the storms were coming,
when you could predict that it was going to last
this long. Like, these kind of things are setting a
pre sydem for things we have never seen before, and
I can't imagine how much worse that is going to
get in the next twenty thirty forty years.
Speaker 3 (19:48):
I guess the big question though, is is is it
beyond a point where we can correct course?
Speaker 2 (19:54):
No, it's not.
Speaker 5 (19:55):
I mean, I'm not giving up. We know that the
future because the way the greenhouse gas is in accumulate
in the atmosphere, we know that the future will likely
be a bit harder for young people. They're probably that
they will have to live with more climate related disasters.
But we have a huge opportunity to build more resilient
lifestyles to sort of undo a lot of the damage
(20:16):
that we've done, so it's not over.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
But on your point, for I just want to also.
Speaker 5 (20:20):
Adds a huge This is a huge issue, particularly for
women and girls. In times of these climate disasters. We
see rates of domestic violence increase markedly, but we also
see the survival rates of men far outweighing that of women.
So for example, in India during a natural disaster, a
climate disaster, men survived women by four to one, and
(20:41):
it was because women hadn't been taught to swim or
climb trees, so they couldn't escape. And often women will
have kids with them which blows them down a little bit.
So des Yeah, so it is, it's a real issue
for women and girls as well.
Speaker 3 (20:54):
What do you think is the most important steps that
we can take?
Speaker 5 (20:58):
There's quite a lot knowing where you're in pact and
power is. So if you work for a fashion company
and you are I don't know, a buyer, can you
help or you have access to a decision maker, can
you ask them to start shifting some of their supply
chain or getting them to buy from companies that are
more sustainable or have a you know, a real verified
commitment to improving nature or climate outcomes. If you are
(21:22):
a mum. Can you talk to your school and find
out what their education programs are around the environment? Can
you connect in with your community. Is there anything you
can do in your community to get electric vehicle battery
charging stations set up? Can you top it op shops more?
Can you share clothes with your friends more? I think
it's just donating to charities. There are so many incredible
(21:43):
ENGOs doing really important work and they're heavily under resource,
So donating to them. Engaging with politicians, emailing ministers, emailing
brands and just saying why am I receiving this outfit
that is in you know, bucket loads of plastic and
so annoying and it's time consuming and all of those
sort of things. But even if you just make a
(22:03):
daily habit to do one small thing, it starts to
rewire you a little bit and you start to live
it more when you go on like I go on
walks with my mentor we just walk and pick up.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
Rubbish, pick up rubbish on the way. It's just little things.
Just pick up one piece of rubbish when you walk
to the coffee store.
Speaker 5 (22:19):
It's it's just I think it's starting to embed those
habits of just trying to make a small difference, not
feeling overwhelmed. There are seriously the extraordinary efforts that people
are going to to protect nature is so inspiring.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
It really is just starting anywhere you.
Speaker 4 (22:35):
Just mentioned, you know, emailing brands and sort of questioning
what they're doing, how they're doing it. I think that
this is a really good time to go into greenwashing
and talk to us about what green washing is, but
also how we as a consumer can be more hyper
aware and I guess being alert.
Speaker 5 (22:50):
Yeah, So green washing is basically when a company makes
up or overstates their environmental credentials, so you'll see a
green label. It could be as simple as a bottle
that is green with a that says sustainable on it,
or a brand name that's sort of echoes something.
Speaker 6 (23:07):
Like misleaning advertising, yeah.
Speaker 5 (23:09):
Which gives the impression that it's green, or more extreme
examples when you'll see fossil fuel companies saying this is
a friendly oil, you know, stuff like that.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
It can be.
Speaker 5 (23:19):
So there's a whole range of different sorts of green washing,
and one of the problems with that is that it's
just eroded trust with consumers and it's made people think, well,
I'm not even going to try anymore because even when
I do try, it doesn't work.
Speaker 2 (23:31):
So it's a huge disservice to consumers.
Speaker 5 (23:34):
But also now we also have a situation where we're
so on top of green washing that we accuse everybody
of green washing. So it's almost like we need to
give companies a chance to try to improve, but hold
them to account as well.
Speaker 3 (23:48):
I think it's so deeply problematic when a company is
using it as part of their marketing pitch, you know.
And I think there's obviously, like you established these different
levels of it, but in terms of like a marketing
look and feel, it's very easy to look branded as
though you are naturally conservative or you're naturally inclined or
whatever those things are, without actually having to be at all,
(24:09):
Like you said, you know, from like it could be
the fact that just the coloring of the brand and
the tones are earthy and tonal and everything else that
we associate with something being more environmentally conscious. What are
the in terms of packaging or in terms of brand
standards that we should look out for and able to
go okay, well, that one doesn't really conform to what's needed.
Speaker 2 (24:31):
Yeah, it's quite hard so at the moment.
Speaker 5 (24:32):
So if I was going to look at a product
and I was going to dig really deep, I would
go into their sustainability report, and I know not everybody
wants to do that, and I would look at if
they have done things like are they run by renewable energies,
where do they get their products from? Are they starting
to look at their supply chain to see if there's
any deforestation in their supply chain.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
So I would usually try to go look.
Speaker 5 (24:53):
So a lot of them will say we are aiming
for no deforestation in our supply chain, or we do
not invest in fossil fuels. So it's usually the sustainability report,
but even they can be a little bit misleading. What
I think we need to push for, and this is
pushing brands and politicians, is for environmental labeling, so that
in the same way that we look at when we
(25:13):
see new food products and we know exactly what we're eating,
we should see what's their greenhouse gas profile of this product,
how much deforestation was involved? Do they track their supply
chain for human rights abuse? Having product labels like that,
I think we need a lot more transparency. So it
is very difficult for the consumer. But I think we
put in a lot of effort to look at the
sort of trends that are online or find the right outfit.
(25:36):
We can do the same. It just takes a little
bit of effort online.
Speaker 3 (25:38):
I mean people do it now in terms of like
what toxins are in their skincare. Like I wonder if
there's apps that exists for this, because like you can
now scan a skincare barcode and we'll tell you exactly
what's in it in terms of whether it's toxic for
your skin or not toxic. I wonder if there is
an app that exists that allows you to scan products
it tells you, like what's the environmental impact of that product.
Speaker 5 (25:59):
There is a there's also one that's called trace ID
and they I think they work with companies, but the
aim is to basically trace every single product to see
so comportise and start being more transparent about what's in
their product.
Speaker 4 (26:13):
But that just circles back to why it's so much
more important that we have policy changed, not individual change,
because there are so many people that just heard what
you just said about how in depth you need to
go to look at one product and where it's from
and I can just tell people rolling their eyes now
being like, yeah, I'm never going to do that.
Speaker 6 (26:30):
I go online and shop at midnight, I look at.
Speaker 4 (26:33):
Something, I press order, Like there are so many steps
that are then put on the consumer, whereas really the
responsibility should be on the conglomerate or the company to
make the policy changes so that we know that they're
going to be safe and we don't have to spend
half an hour for every single thing that we buy
trolling through it.
Speaker 5 (26:48):
Yeah, I mean it's a fair point, and I agree
to an extent. But individuals can still if we want,
we can do a little bit of research and find
our top five favorite brands that we know, or we
can also just shop a little bit less, go to
an op shop, wear your clothes more than once. A
lot of the time a're shopping to buy clothes to
impress someone that we don't.
Speaker 2 (27:06):
Even like, so can we which is a whole nother battle.
Speaker 3 (27:11):
But also I think it's the standard of clothing though
now as well. I mean, like you know, there used
to be that whole adage of like you buy something
more expensive and it's better quality, and then you wear
it more times, like it's the price point of clothing.
It's become so so disposable. You can buy a T
shirt from km up for fifteen dollars or ten dollars,
and it's like the quality is terrible, so you have
to buy more of that. They're great for a few wears,
(27:32):
you know, but then after a few washes they start
to fall apart, so you have to buy something more.
Speaker 4 (27:36):
But having said that, a lot of the design of
brands are made in the same factory as the cheaper
brands as well, just with a high price point, which
circles back to that being like we're wearing this stuff
for people we don't like or know, Like who are
we trying to impress. We'll take a little pivot to
something very serious.
Speaker 6 (27:54):
The world of chocolate. The decline of chocolate is like
chocolate under threat.
Speaker 2 (27:59):
Yeah, so.
Speaker 5 (28:02):
Yeah, So you see wine, chocolate, olive oil, coffee, You
see their prices, the prices arising everywhere. But those prices
are really spiking, and they are it's because things like
chocolate are directly impacted by climate change and we're already
seeing evidence of that. So chocolate's really interesting because you know,
like Mars incorporated in chocolate their entire business model. All
(28:26):
of their profits are entirely dependent on this one little
insect called a midge. Midges are like the ones that
fly in your mouth if you go for a run.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
They're like those.
Speaker 5 (28:35):
Yeah, they're amazing creatures. They are the only insects that
can pollinate the cacao plant.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
So without them, chocolate doesn't exist.
Speaker 5 (28:45):
So Mars Incorporated is freaking out now and they're trying
to find other ways to pollinate because the midge is
vulnerable to extinction because of climate change and because of deforestation.
So you have these really interesting situation where we have
seven twenty percent of the world's cocoa is developed throughout
West Africa, but they have massive forestation, a lot of
(29:07):
it to make way for chocolate plantations or coco plantations.
They also have climate change which is sort of taking
away the ability for rainforest to be rainforests. And you
have the midge, which is vulnerable to extinction that can't pollinate.
So it's sort of all of these environmental related crises
(29:27):
are happening in West Africa and it's impacting the ability
for us to produce chocolate, which is increasing the prices,
not to mention it's impacting the million hundreds of millions
of people whose lives are dependent on our farm industry.
Speaker 3 (29:40):
Yeah, but in that case, then is it not a
situation where companies have to pay attention because their very
livelihoods are being affected in the sort of round circle moment.
Speaker 5 (29:49):
Yeah, exactly, this is why it's mad. I'm like, I'm
talking about your own survival. When we taught these companies,
they are every single company in the world, every single
one of us. We are dependent on nature. We need
it to breathe, we need it to run our companies.
It's the thing that allows us to live, which baffled
this White baffles me when we argue about it, because
(30:09):
I'm like, how do you think you're staying alive?
Speaker 3 (30:11):
It's you know, I had an interesting conversation with someone recently.
We were doing a renovation right on the house and
we went into a stone supplier where they obviously mind
quarries for stone, and I was talking to my husband
and I was like, it is crazy how much we
take from the earth, Like it is crazy when you
think about all these varieties of stones coming from all
different quarries, and like, as a jeweler, we work with
(30:33):
stones all the time, Like it is not lost on me,
the volume of which is taken from the earth. And
I was talking to the sales rep at this store
which I will not mention the store name, but it's
a massive distributor of stone. She was like, Oh, yeah,
they mine the quarry and then once they've taken it out,
they close it so it can regenerate. And I was like,
do you have any concept of how long it takes
(30:54):
to regenerate a stone quarry. I was like, it doesn't.
It doesn't regenerate. They've just taken everything out of it.
There's nothing left, and then they move on to another area.
Speaker 6 (31:00):
They're letting it regenerate.
Speaker 3 (31:02):
But this is the thing, like, we don't have this
unlimited source, and I think we still live in an
era where we're treating as though the sources are unlimited
and that we can just keep digging further down and
find more and more and more.
Speaker 2 (31:14):
Yeah, and we can't.
Speaker 5 (31:16):
We've already actually, I mean this is a bit negative,
but so I think it was four days ago we
reached Earth Overshoot Day, and that's essentially when at the
time of the it's the time of the year when
we've already used up all of the yearly resources for nature.
So now it's sort of this we're in overdraw. So
we've taken too much. So if everybody's months of debt, yeah, basically,
(31:36):
but that's accumulated. So if everybody on the planet lived
like Australia did, we'd need four and.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
A half planet earths just to sustain us.
Speaker 5 (31:44):
So we are just taking far, far more than the
Earth can allow for. And we have a growing population
as well, so we are we're going to have to
live really differently and also support innovations that I mean,
there's huge even in the fashion industry, there's huge innovations
that are allowing us to think about what sort of
materials we're using and if we can use materials that
(32:05):
are extracting less from nature.
Speaker 2 (32:07):
So there's a lot that can be done.
Speaker 3 (32:09):
You talk about something called the cute curse with animals,
especially in terms of like social media. What is that
and what is like what is the problem or I
guess like the reasons why the cute curse is such
an issue.
Speaker 5 (32:20):
Yeah, I don't know if you guys ever saw there
was a video of a slow lorius on Instagram. It's
like this primate, it's a primate from South East Asia
and it had its arms in the air. It's really
on the big eyes, yeah, and it had its arms
in the air. Someone was tickling it under the arms
and everybody loved this video. They thought it was adorable.
It was called tickling a slow lorss. What happened was
(32:42):
everybody then wanted a pet slow lorus, so the clip
went viral.
Speaker 2 (32:47):
It's all these videos of cute.
Speaker 5 (32:49):
Wild animals being tickled, and we've found out later that
having its arms in there meant that it was in
extreme distress. It wasn't being cute, was traumatized. But then
everybody went out and tried to get their own pet
slow loris and wanted to buy them, so poaching increased.
They're now in an endangered species because coaches in the
(33:10):
area or traffickers would take them, send them around the
world and ship them to people as pets. And that's
the thing with social media sometimes it glamorizes, especially cute animals.
We're not appreciating them in the wild. We want them
for ourselves as pets and they so even when I see,
you know, there's gorgeous videos of somebody cuddling orangutans, and
I just think That's not how orangutans are meant to live.
(33:32):
They're meant to be wild. We are not meant to
be touching them. As much as you want them as
a pet. It's not great for them.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
I mean, we've all seen tiger king. We know how
it goes. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (33:41):
But also there's such an interesting, like alternate take on
that where we value the existence of some animals over
others because they're cute. You know, we care more about whales,
or we care more about koalas, or we care more
about like specific animals that are going extinct more than
we care about insects or things that have you know, Midge,
you know, like yeah, overarchingly, I don't think that there's
(34:02):
many people who are going to listen to this podcast
who have thought about Amdge this week, you know, whereas
they might have thought about another animal that's either large
of scale or is very adorable, and there feels like
a greater tragedy to have an earth without that animal.
Speaker 5 (34:15):
So I'm an ugly animal activist. Can I tell you? Sorry,
I get so excited. Can I tell you about the vulture?
Speaker 1 (34:22):
Great?
Speaker 2 (34:22):
Yeah, So in.
Speaker 5 (34:24):
India they have vultures and everybody hates vultures because like, well,
first of all, they piss on their own legs to
keep cool, which isn't very attractive. But they also eat
rotting carcasses, so you know, they're not in beauty magazines
like the panda.
Speaker 4 (34:37):
You think of them from the Lion King. Yeah, the
Lion King sort of made them famous, I guess.
Speaker 5 (34:43):
And they're not known to be like super cute or
sexy or anything like that. But anyway, they have the
most incredible role. So in India, their population started declining
and they declined by ninety percent, so they were plummeting
towards extinction and no one could figure out why. And
then after a few years they realized that it was
actually a veterory drug that was being used in cattle.
(35:04):
And then when the vultures were eating the dead cattle,
they were getting sick and dying. But in that period
where vultures hit near extinction, it caused the deaths of
five hundred thousand people in India and cost the economy.
I think it was around thirty billion dollars. And that's
because vultures are nature's clean up crew. They play a
really important role when they clean up the rotting carcasses.
(35:25):
They're also preventing the spread of disease and rabies outbreaks,
and they're controlling other populations. So without them, it actually
severely impacted human health and cost the Indian government a
huge amount of money. So these amazing species, we might
think they're ugly, but we should still see an advocate
for these ugly animals because the role they play is
(35:46):
just incredible.
Speaker 4 (35:47):
But then there's that adage of like one species goes extinct,
it doesn't matter what it is, and the entire food
change changes, the entire world changes, and that's like a
crime example of why every single species we have is
so imperative.
Speaker 2 (36:00):
Absolutely.
Speaker 3 (36:00):
What ended up being the flow on effect of that story,
what did the Indian government do to step in?
Speaker 5 (36:05):
So they banned the drug that was being used by vets.
Vets complied straight away, obviously they care about animals, and
now the vulture populations are rebounding. There are so many
success stories, even the humpback whale, they were plummeting towards
extinction and now we get to see them all the time.
There are so many success stories that are really incredible
of people that are just policymakers working with volunteers and
(36:28):
activists and NGOs that are turning things around.
Speaker 3 (36:31):
You have a lot of fun anecdotes in your book,
and I know it's something you've even in this episode
as you're speaking about it, you've said it a few
times like, I don't want this to be doom and gloom.
I feel like you can't talk about climate change without
it being doom and gloom. And I kind of think
that we would be doing a disservice to the conversation
without having those conversations. And I think anyone who deeply
cares about climate change who's listening to it, or people
(36:53):
who want to be more educated, would feel like if
it's missed opportunity if we didn't have those more serious chats.
But you do talk about a lot of lighthearted stuff
in the book as well that you've written. One of
those things is an ejaculation helmet. The other one is
talking about Bonobo's with bulging clittericies. Why, in terms of
your approach to climate change, has it been so important
for you to try to not make it too heavy.
Speaker 2 (37:16):
I don't want people to give up.
Speaker 5 (37:17):
I don't want them and I can see when I
talk to people, you know, when you mentioned climate change
or mentioned nature, and.
Speaker 2 (37:24):
They just sort of doze off a little bit. I
don't want that.
Speaker 5 (37:28):
I think to really make change, you need to fall
in love a little bit, and so part of that
means finding the joy, finding something that you feel connected to,
and also feeling like it's not so overwhelming that you
can't do anything. So the reason I wrote this book
is because I wanted it to be the sort of
book that can make nature feel mainstream, like, not something
where I say it in people like, oh, she must
(37:50):
like hugging trees. I'm not into nature. I wanted to
have stories in there that could really appeal to anybody
in everybody, whether you're a farmer, or you're a teacher,
you're a hairdresser, or you're a university student.
Speaker 2 (38:01):
It should be able to appeal to anybody.
Speaker 5 (38:03):
So I cover a lot of There's a lot of
tragic stories in there, but also there's a lot of
funny stories and inspiring stories and lists of things that
people can do to take action, and a lot of
weird stories. So what I like to do is find
weird stories and then connect that into a bigger themes.
Speaker 6 (38:21):
Like Pablo Escapa and cocaine hyposh.
Speaker 5 (38:25):
Yeah, So did you want me, I mean, did you
want me to tell you about the ejaculation.
Speaker 3 (38:29):
Yeah, I think I can say ejaculation helmet and then
not get a clarification on that.
Speaker 1 (38:33):
Just people like you left us hanging with that one.
Speaker 2 (38:36):
Okay.
Speaker 5 (38:36):
So there is a parrot in New Zealand. It's called
the kakapor and it's the world's heaviest parrot and it
also is the only one that can't fly, so it's
the heavy flightless Yeah, and it's so it's so funny looking.
So it's this huge flightless parrot. There's only two hundred
and fifty left in the wild, so their population is
in crisis. So scientists are going to extreme lengths to
(38:59):
try and say them. But the problem is the male carcopause.
Their mating strategy isn't great. They sort of like waddle
up a hill together and then start balowing into the
dirt and hope that the females will come to them,
and the females don't.
Speaker 4 (39:12):
Yeah, shocking, shocking, So then females like go away. It's
good evolutionary skills, like surely you'd think as a species. Okay,
we've been trying this for a couple of hundred years,
let's try something different.
Speaker 5 (39:24):
Yeah, they So what they've started doing is humping. They
try to mate with other things. Sometimes they'll mate with
other species of birds, but a few times they've tried
to mate with human heads. And so the karkapor became
famous because I think there was this BBC clip where
the krkabu started humping a TV presenter's head.
Speaker 2 (39:43):
And it's a.
Speaker 5 (39:44):
Huge bird anyway, how just jumped up on its head
and started flapping about.
Speaker 3 (39:49):
Did the presenter realize that it was mating or did
they come.
Speaker 2 (39:52):
Like yeah, yeah, and I've got millions of views.
Speaker 5 (39:56):
And they had a heading like world's heaviest par shag's head.
So then scientists in New Zealand from the Department of Conservation,
they're so amazing. They were like, okay, well, if he
wants a human head, then a human head he she'll have.
And so they got this scientist called Kate mcinniss. She
built an ejaculation helbert. But she was like, okay, I
(40:17):
need to get the right helmet because this is a
really heavy parrot. So she went and got a rugby
helmet and turned it into an ejaculation helmet, which is
essentially a helmet of condoms. And then she ventured into
the forest and just waited for a carcopor to come
and hump.
Speaker 2 (40:32):
Her head and then took the sperm.
Speaker 5 (40:33):
Yeah, and she says she just sat there for hours,
getting her head and via getting her head bunked by
this carcoport. But it's also she's like, it was quite
difficult because not only are the world's heaviest parrot, but
they also have sex for a really long time, longer
than most birds, so you can go for an hour. Yeah,
and it didn't work.
Speaker 2 (40:53):
Oh I didn't. I thought this was gonna have a
great success.
Speaker 1 (40:56):
No, I didn't want that is devastating. That is devastation.
Speaker 2 (41:00):
But just the heroism of that woman.
Speaker 3 (41:02):
She really tried. Also, you, I don't know if i'd
share that. I don't know if if it didn't, if
if it worked, if it worked, I would tell the story.
But it didn't work, So I think that I would
take that to my grave.
Speaker 6 (41:13):
Was thinking about having your head fucked for hours on
and don't.
Speaker 5 (41:15):
Yeah, Well they put the helmet in the museum, so
it's a national treasure.
Speaker 2 (41:19):
Now.
Speaker 4 (41:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (41:20):
I actually read on instid O the day that sloths
just like male No female sloss like climb down the
tree and then scream until the mate.
Speaker 1 (41:27):
Comes to them. And I was like, that sounds like me,
my husband do this.
Speaker 3 (41:32):
I was like, maybe it's not all terrible like, but
it does sound like some animals really are not helping
themselves out when it comes to how they're reproducing.
Speaker 5 (41:39):
Yeah, you have some species like the ibis, which is
considered a generalist species, and you know they're the bin chickens.
Speaker 2 (41:45):
They thrive like they've managed to get they adapt and thrive.
And then other.
Speaker 5 (41:48):
Species like the koala, they're specialist species, so they can
only live on a specialty arrangement of conditions, so they
don't thrive.
Speaker 4 (41:57):
Now, in your book, you labeled the bonobo and it's
clitterus a feminist icon. Now, I don't think people would
put those things in the same sentence.
Speaker 6 (42:05):
Generally speaking. Talk to us about why this clitteress is
a feminist icon.
Speaker 2 (42:09):
Okay, this is my favorite topic.
Speaker 5 (42:11):
So, bernobos are one of our closest living relatives. They
look like a chimp, so we share most of our
DNA with them, but essentially they're really different. Their communities
are different to chimp community. So Chimp communities are really violent.
They demolish each other. Bernobo communities are really peaceful and
they live in solidarity and the women are equal, if
(42:31):
not dominant, over men. And the reason for that is
because of their big bulging clitteresses that they actually waggle
when they walk.
Speaker 2 (42:40):
So theva I.
Speaker 1 (42:42):
Just give it a little bit.
Speaker 2 (42:42):
They choose is something the time of a life and no.
Speaker 5 (42:44):
One yeah, so what their bernobos do. The females rub
their clitteresses together, and it's a form of bonding and
it has become so beneficial to their species that they've
evolved giant clitteresses because some people say it allows them
to overthrow the men of their species, but essentially it's
seen as a way to have social cohesion in their society.
(43:06):
So bernobos are a peaceful society because they rub their
clittericsies together. And now people are studying it and studying
like workplace relations and team building and like women's roles.
Speaker 2 (43:18):
So like you guys could do it if you.
Speaker 6 (43:21):
Why it was about. They don't even think about it.
Speaker 3 (43:24):
Or imagine if someone came to work and said, I
know the way to make this more harmonious workplace.
Speaker 1 (43:28):
We could all rub our querences on each other and
will be great.
Speaker 3 (43:30):
You go to prison, you would, yeah, unfortunately, think it
goes again some of the workplace stand at the moment.
Speaker 6 (43:35):
But I think this is a look at this picture.
Speaker 4 (43:37):
When you're saying they're the closest to us in terms
of DNA history. That literally looks like an AI human.
It is that you guys need to google this. That
is incredible that literally even the musculature of that animal
looks like a human.
Speaker 5 (43:52):
They're also really interesting because they're upending our understanding of
male female relationships and all of evolution. So ch Darwin,
he had the theory of evolution and the way that
we have come to understand it is that male species
are dominant. Men are dominant and tough, and women are weak.
And we're actually uncovering a huge amount of bias because
(44:12):
Charles Darwin was hampered by his own bias. He was
living in Victorian era England where women weren't really allowed
to vote or have bank accounts, they weren't permitted into
any of the major scientific institutions or anything like that.
So he only looked at the males of the species
and completely overlooked the females of the species. He called
the females of the species wives said there were less
(44:32):
than men, and so that's come to shape what we
think about men and women today. So there's this group
of amazing female scientists that are going around studying the
females of species. So it was female scientists that discovered
the clitoris in bernobos and that are looking into, okay,
what can we learn about women? And then a bunch
of ossie women for ossie women, discovered that snakes have clits.
Speaker 2 (44:53):
And that is.
Speaker 5 (44:54):
Despite all of so most of the researchers for snakes
and men, they never found the clip.
Speaker 2 (45:01):
It was also not shocking even didn't even think to.
Speaker 1 (45:05):
Look for it. What they were looking for. That's why
what's that.
Speaker 5 (45:09):
Women came in found the snake's clip. And now we're saying, okay,
let's study more female species because we've only studied the
males of species and we're.
Speaker 2 (45:17):
Like, oh, look it's a wolf, it's a wolf back.
Men are like wolves.
Speaker 5 (45:20):
We haven't studied orchist societies where we can see women
and the powerful role they play and what we can
learn from that in human society.
Speaker 4 (45:27):
There's heaps of animal species we've discovered in our fun
fact animal facts that we do here on life and
cart heaps of female species just like kill their spouse
when they're done. But it is interesting to hear that
I've never actually heard anyone say Darwin was sexist.
Speaker 2 (45:41):
Yeah, yeah, he was.
Speaker 3 (45:42):
Really sexist, But he was very sexist at the time,
Like I mean in terms of the society and the Yeah.
Speaker 4 (45:47):
Still that's all we learned as kids his generation. Like
it's pretty.
Speaker 3 (45:50):
Impactful, but it also isn't surprising when you think about
it in terms of, like even from like a medical perspective,
Like so much research is done on how medicines or
treatments or whatever it is affect men in general under
our human and animal men, but like there's so much
skew in terms of like research that's done on how
it affects men verse. Like now it's like we've woken
up to the idea of like, oh, but actually how
(46:12):
women respond to this is different, and now we have
to go back.
Speaker 4 (46:14):
Yeah, but I feel like there's a few like stand
out characters in society that generally speaking, you trust. Darwin
was one, and for me, he was always when I
really trusted.
Speaker 6 (46:24):
And I don't know how I feel about it now. Yeah, Okay,
probably not. It's like literally everything I've learned as a kid.
Speaker 5 (46:29):
Has just been it's every he contributed a huge amount.
Speaker 2 (46:33):
It's just understanding that he sort of forgot the clitterist
find the clip. Yeah, he couldn't find the clip. That's
so funny.
Speaker 6 (46:42):
That does check out though?
Speaker 4 (46:43):
Is like because as women like generally speaking in the
day to day obviously not in same sex.
Speaker 6 (46:48):
Relationships, but we don't rub our clits together.
Speaker 4 (46:50):
I do wonder if maybe would have, we would have
had bigger clitteristes, if men.
Speaker 6 (46:56):
Spent more time finding them and more time on them.
Speaker 5 (47:00):
Maybe that's the research. This is the start of a movement. Matt,
thank you so much for coming in.
Speaker 4 (47:06):
Is there anything else that you feel is really imperative
and important that you might not have been able to
touch on in this conversation.
Speaker 2 (47:12):
I think we cover.
Speaker 4 (47:16):
It was pretty We're gonna put show notes if you
guys want to go and find out more. It's an
incredible book. We're gonna put all the links in our
show notes, so please go and find NAT's Instagram, buy
the book, read it for yourself, have the conversations with friends,
find out what more you can do.
Speaker 6 (47:31):
In your own life, and don't be so overwhelmed that
you think.
Speaker 4 (47:35):
One little change that you're contributing is not enough, because
if there's anything we've learned today, it definitely is.
Speaker 6 (47:40):
Thanks Nat, Thank you,
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