"Why Aren't I Coping?" Postpartum Depression and The Baby Blues - Uncut with Psychologist Kat Wyeth

Postpartum depression affects between 15 and 20% of Australian women during the first year after birth which translates to thousands of new mums and about 100,000 families every year that experience this often invisible condition.

For anyone who has experienced it, you’ll likely know that it is more than a short wave of sadness. It can have lasting effects on mums, on their relationships with their babies, on their friendships and their relationships. So we wanted to create this episode not just for the mums who have experienced PPD, but for their friends and partners so that we can all better understand the condition and be able to support someone we love who is experiencing it. 

Joining the podcast today is Kat Wyeth. Kat is a registered and practicing psychologist, the Senior Psychologist of the Psych Collaborative and host of the Psychology Sisters podcast. Kat also experienced postpartum depression. 

We chat:

• ‘Baby blues’ v postpartum depression
• Signs and symptoms
• Who is likely to develop PPD?
• The unspoken guilt of struggling because it implies you aren’t grateful for your baby
• Being ‘on the other side of it’
• How it can impact your relationship with your partner
• Postpartum resentment and rage
• The perfect mother myth
• Intrusive thoughts and new ‘emotions’ when you enter motherhood
• ‘Regret’ is often yearning for your old life or identity

Kat mentioned two services that offer free counselling The Gidget Foundation 
And Panda Organisation 

You can find more from Kat, and seek some psychological help at her website 
You can listen to Kat’s podcast The Psychology Sisters 

And find Kat on Instagram and the psychology sisters on instagram 

You can watch us on Youtube

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Join us on tiktok

Or join the Facebook Discussion Group

Tell your mum, tell your dad, tell your dog, tell your friend and share the love because WE LOVE LOVE! Xx

 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
This episode was recorded on cameragle Land.

Speaker 2 (00:12):
Hi guys, and welcome back to another episode of Life
on CANT.

Speaker 1 (00:14):
I'm Laura, I'm Brittany.

Speaker 2 (00:16):
Now today's episode feels firstly, it feels very timely for me.
But secondly, it is something that has been requested so
many times over the years. I'm actually surprised we've managed
to get six years into lave On Cart and not
done it yet.

Speaker 3 (00:27):
It is unusual our time. In like a week before
you're about to have your third baby, we decided to
do a deep dive into this topic.

Speaker 1 (00:34):
Yeah, well we're talking about postpartum depression.

Speaker 3 (00:36):
Now.

Speaker 2 (00:36):
I don't say this because I have any indication or
feeling as though it's something that's going to hit me,
but we've talked about it quite a bit in terms
of getting someone on who's a professional, but also we
wanted to not just have a professional, and we wanted
to speak to someone who has experienced it themselves, because
it's one thing to talk about and experience from a
clinical perspective, and it's a totally different thing to talk

(00:58):
about it from someone who's actually lived it and understands it.

Speaker 3 (01:01):
So we thought, let's find an overachiever it's not both
has done both.

Speaker 2 (01:06):
But to give you a bit of stats around how
prevalent it is postpartum depression, it affects fifteen to twenty
percent of Australian women during their first year of birth.
Hundreds of thousands of families are affected by this.

Speaker 1 (01:18):
And I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:19):
Whether I'm probably overstepping here, but I would say that
so many women experience it and are not diagnosed because
they either don't have the resources, they don't have the
understanding or the accessibility to be able to go through diagnosis.

Speaker 3 (01:30):
But maybe even a lot of women that are experiencing
it that have no idea that they are experienced, Like,
it's really hard when people have a baby. Every single woman,
everyone experiences hardship and fatigue and tiredness and feelings of
hormones and being overwhelmed and sadness. If we're not speaking
about what it means, it's pretty easy for it to
go undiagnosed because you're like, well, I'm just in the

(01:52):
throes of having a baby.

Speaker 1 (01:53):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:53):
And I also think that there's a really big misconception
that postpartum depression shows up straight away that if you're
going to have it, you have it on.

Speaker 1 (02:00):
Your baby is a newborn baby.

Speaker 2 (02:03):
And so the other experiences that you have maybe slightly
down the track of, you know, being a new mum
that could be chopped up to something else, but we're
going to get into it today. Look, I'm very excited
to introduce who we have on the podcast day Kat Wire.

Speaker 1 (02:17):
Kat.

Speaker 2 (02:17):
She's a registered and practicing psychologist, the senior psychologist of
the PSITE Collaborative, and also hosts her own podcast called
The Psychology Sister Podcast. Now, we did say she's an
overachiever because Kat also experienced postpartum depression after having her
little girl.

Speaker 4 (02:31):
Kat.

Speaker 1 (02:31):
Welcome to the pod.

Speaker 4 (02:32):
Oh, thank you so much for having me. I'm so
excited to talk about such an important topic and one
that is really needed.

Speaker 1 (02:37):
Are you as excited to talk about your accillent and
fielded story?

Speaker 2 (02:40):
Because you did just say to us, I'm not going
to talk about poo because I am a practicing psychologist
and I want to be taken seriously.

Speaker 1 (02:45):
So you bug deep for something else.

Speaker 3 (02:47):
It's not even that to me. It's like, Hey, we're
going to talk about how to press you are, but
first throw yourself under a bus.

Speaker 4 (02:54):
I thought no pooh stories today I'm trying to be
a little bit have a bit of integrity, you know.

Speaker 1 (02:58):
I don't leave it.

Speaker 4 (02:59):
At the first time I happened degree in this room,
it was actually a couple of months ago. I was
in the midst of training for a marathon and I
was doing a long run, right and at the time,
I was still breastfeeding, and I was thinking, okay, I'm
trying to time it so that my boobs aren't leaking.
And for some stupid reason, upon reflection, I wore just

(03:22):
you know mil gray, you know that really light gray.

Speaker 2 (03:24):
Oh yeah, which goes through life.

Speaker 4 (03:27):
When it gets worse, it shows everything. It was little
crop top and just shorts. And anyhow, I was out
for a long run and as it's running, I was like,
everyone is so happy today. I'm getting a lot of
smiles today, and you know, this is really nice. Birds
are chirping, sun is out, this is amazing. And as
every five colomba progressed, I just remember thinking, why is
everyone just giving me these little smiles? And I thought, oh,
that's really really lovely. As it goes on, I start

(03:50):
to really notice a bit of a smell. I was like,
what is that palms? And smell? Sounds like any the
last five k's, I finish and I get in my
car and I take a little selfie to put on
Strava for my like three followers.

Speaker 1 (04:08):
And I realized as.

Speaker 4 (04:09):
I taken this selfie that one boob has completely leaked
and just one, just one has completely leaked, and you
can start to see the white. You can start see
the white come out of the one booth, and it's
worse because it wasn't two two.

Speaker 3 (04:23):
I think you could just like I'm swearing. Yeah, So
the smiles were sympathetic. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (04:28):
And I got home and I was like, you know
when you drive home in silence and you just think
of every single person.

Speaker 1 (04:34):
It was all moms. Though it was all moms. We've
been there.

Speaker 2 (04:40):
They wouldn't unless their dad, I reckon, they wouldn't get it.

Speaker 3 (04:44):
Like I don't think I did get it. I think
I just liked it was wet T shirt competition one bah.

Speaker 1 (04:50):
If it makes you feel any better.

Speaker 2 (04:52):
I once had this experience where I was was at
my shop at Tony May and I was serving a
customer and I felt something leaking and I looked up
and I was like, oh my god, corn must be leaking,
and I was looking around and this poor man I
looked down. I looked at his face and he was horrified.
And I was squirting breast milk through my shirt and liked,

(05:12):
he just gone through the material. It was squirting through
the material and just lactating, and it was like we
were all watching it happen in real time.

Speaker 3 (05:19):
But I'm sorry talk about overachieving. You trained from marathon
as well, like, I don't do that without a baby.

Speaker 1 (05:25):
I was like, what are you doing?

Speaker 3 (05:27):
Wo man?

Speaker 4 (05:28):
I think that's part of the problem. I think, you know,
we'll talk about it later, but there's a type of
depression called high functioning depression, and I think it looked
like I was doing okay, right.

Speaker 1 (05:39):
Kat's like, I'm running away from the misery.

Speaker 3 (05:41):
She's like, do you do ultra marathons? Like how far
can I run? One hundred KOs, I'm doing it.

Speaker 2 (05:46):
I mean, I find this really interesting because obviously you're
already are practicing psychologist at the time. But is it
something your interest in postpartum depression? Did it come after
experiencing it yourself, or was it already something that you
were pretty well versed in in terms of.

Speaker 1 (06:00):
Speaking to other mums about it.

Speaker 2 (06:02):
And prescribing medication or helping and you know, trying to
get other people through this period of their lives.

Speaker 4 (06:07):
I definitely piqued my interest postpartum, Like when I became
a mum, I really understood. I worked a lot with women,
particularly in fertility, and particularly women who had just become
new mothers. That was generally the population that I saw anyway,
But it wasn't until postpartum where I was like, Oh,
I get it. I remember thinking, how is no one

(06:29):
screaming from the rooftop? How hard this is? I cannot
believe that almost every second person in the world goes
through something like motherhood, and how is everyone okay with this?
Like this is so hard, this is just incredibly hard.
So I think postpartum gave me that almost that personal
humanness side to it. I knew all the clinical I

(06:49):
knew all the symptoms, I knew the risk factors and
blah blah blah. But I think experiencing it and experiencing
the intensity of the depression that I did, I really felt, Wow,
I really understand how difficult this is. And I think
that really help.

Speaker 3 (07:03):
What's the difference between baby blues and depression? Like postpartum depression.

Speaker 4 (07:08):
If there is a difference, Yeah, there is a difference.
So baby blues tends to happen around the three days postpartum,
so that's when you get a lot of your pregnancy hormones.
They drop, so your estrogen and progesterone they drop, and
estrogen and progesterone really help with maintaining your mood, So
balancing your mood. So that'll last for about a week
or two the baby blues, and then naturally it tends

(07:28):
to level out. Like you might have had that experience.

Speaker 1 (07:31):
Yeah, I had it really bad with Lola.

Speaker 2 (07:33):
I remember sitting on the side of my bed looking
at her in her cot and I think we were
day two. And also, I mean all the mums will
will get this, but like the cluster feeding, so you've
been awake for forty eight hours, You've also just run
a marathon literally labor, and then you're expected to just
keep this human alive, which is the most bizarre experience.
And they're going to keep you awake for forty eight hours,

(07:53):
so you have no time to recover.

Speaker 3 (07:54):
You're like, I just want to sleep.

Speaker 2 (07:56):
Yeah, And we went straight home from the hospitals, so
didn't have like midwife help or anything like that, and
I remember looking at her in her cot and I
was just like, what have we done?

Speaker 1 (08:04):
We have ruined our lives.

Speaker 2 (08:06):
And I had this very It was just such a
clear thought of like, ah, this was a terrible idea.
And then you know, it improved and got better and
better and better. But I was like very much hit
by the baby blues for the first week and a half.

Speaker 4 (08:18):
I would say, yeah, and it's so overwhelming. Isn't particularly
cluster feeding? I remember cluster feeding from like seven pm
to five am, like every all night, twenty minutes and thinking,
oh my god, what have I done? But postpartum depression,
I mean it can start actually in pregnancy, and it
can develop really any time within the two years actually
post having a baby, so you can have later onset

(08:39):
postpartum depression. But that doesn't level out on its own.
And it's not like you know, the baby blues, which
will eventually just level out postpartum depression. It's characterized by
just persistent feelings of sadness, emptiness, hopelessness, guilt, and it
doesn't go away.

Speaker 2 (08:55):
What happens when you say it doesn't go away? What
happens if it goes untreated, so for.

Speaker 4 (08:59):
A a lot of them, and actually untreated it leads
to symptoms of intense burnout. They get exhausted, right if
they're in this state of denial, I'm fine, but then
they're not fine. New mums are such a they're such
a vulnerable group, right, but I think they're at one
of the highest risk of suicide. And I think that
that's really the worst case scenario. So untreated postpartum depression

(09:21):
can lead to so many things, burn out, withdrawal, really
those intense depressive systems like not need to go out
of bed, it's going to impact on your ability to
bond with your baby, not wanting to leave the house.
And you know, so many new mums feel this guilt
of you know, I'm supposed to be enjoying this, but
I'm not, and so what I've wanted or there's so
many people that would kill to have a baby, And

(09:44):
you know what it creates in this even bigger cycle
of guilt that then it almost shuts you off even more,
shuts mom off even more of like I shouldn't be struggling,
you know, I should be happy and I should be
enjoying this, which then makes it harder to actually talk
about and to even acknowledge how common is it, I
guess to start developing post natal depression in pregnancy as

(10:06):
opposed to after. It's definitely more common after. But if
you have a history of anxiety or depression of mental
ill health, you're going to be at risk from day
one of conception, right, so you're going to have a
much higher chance. I think it's three times as likely
to develop any kind of prenatal depression or anxiety during,
but then after, actually it's a lot higher, so you're

(10:26):
at forty forty times more likely to develop postpartum depression.
The history of mental ill health.

Speaker 2 (10:32):
Is it purely hormonal or is it also situational because lifestyle? Yeah,
and I don't mean just like like lifestyle, but like
parenting is so hard becoming a new mum for a
lot of people, Like people don't cope with the intensity
of it, the lack of sleep, the going from having
freedom to having it impact everything around your relationship, and
I think that that changes everything in your life, you know.

(10:55):
So is it always a hormone related aspect to it
or is it just completely what it is you're experiencing
in your life?

Speaker 4 (11:01):
Oh, such a good question. And I think that's like
nature versus nurture is what's happening, you know, neurologically for
me with all these hormone shifts versus is it you know,
just happening with my maybe isolation or not feeling supported
by your partner, etc. It's really both. I think talking
about the baby blues, that's the start of the you know,
the hormonal shifts, the neurological changes in your brain, and

(11:22):
then it's exacerbated blows up if you're more isolated, if
you don't have that support system, if you've had a
history of mental little health, you're more likely to experience depressions. So,
just like any mental health disorder, it's usually always a
little bit of both.

Speaker 3 (11:36):
I think also we underestimate. It's just like, oh, you
have a baby, you don't sleep, that's life, get on
with it. Having no sleep is literally a form of torture.
Or keeping somebody awake and especially letting them sleep for
a tiny amount of time and then bringing them out
of it is a form of torture. But all of
a sudden we're like, hey, you're just a woman, so
like you're just going to do that for however, manys,

(11:57):
and it's pretty easy to forget that because it is
just our norm. But couple that with your intense the
biggest hormone drop that you'll ever experience in your life
with torture, Like why and their all life's so shocked
that the prevalence of depression is so high, you know.

Speaker 2 (12:14):
It's what always strikes me is so interesting though, is
like everyone's experience of motherhood is so different, right, And Like, firstly, obviously,
if you're listening to this, you're listening to it because
maybe you've experienced postpart of depression yourself, you are in
the trenches, or it's something you want to have the
clarity about before going into motherhood. But you know, there's
people who experience the worst versions of it, and then

(12:35):
there's people who go back for a third.

Speaker 1 (12:36):
So it's like it's so.

Speaker 2 (12:37):
Hard to have all of these conversations because everyone's experience
is so different, you know.

Speaker 3 (12:43):
Yeah, And I mean that was something we were just
talking about with you. If you're going to go back
after I we'll get into that. But did it take
you by surprise when you started to develop it and
realize that, Okay, this is actually more than baby blues.
Did it take you by surprise because you're like, well,
I've studied this for so long. I help with this.
I came in armed with the knowledge and everything I needed.

(13:03):
I guess that realization of depression, as we know, really
doesn't discriminate as much as you can be armed. When
was the feeling that you realize, oh, okay, this is
more than just being tired and sad.

Speaker 4 (13:16):
Yeah, mental ill health does not discriminate. Unfortunately, I had
all the tools. I knew what to expect, and you know,
I did everything I could during pregnancy to try and
prepare myself. There was actually one distinct moment. I was
actually in a lot of denial for a really long time.
I think, you know, not just not coping with it,
but also as a psychologist who works in this space,

(13:38):
I thought, what is wrong with me that I can't
cope with this? I should be able to do this.
Why am I failing? Why am I crying every night?
Why am I getting so angry? And I will actually
delial was just she was about to turn I think
eleven or twelve months. It was almost her first birthday,
and I walked into this shop.

Speaker 3 (13:58):
Do you say n I was delighted.

Speaker 1 (14:00):
God's saying, it's a beautiful name.

Speaker 4 (14:06):
And he looked at her and he said, oh, gosh,
he's beautiful. How's motherhood? And I just said to him,
it's so hard, and I actually I'm not loving it.
And it was in that moment where I was like
I couldn't even put on my customer service masks, like
I couldn't even just put on the mask of like, oh,
that's so good. Yeah. I had just been so depressed

(14:28):
that I was just getting through the day. And I
just remember that moment and I just felt so guilty.
I just remember thinking, there are parents who would kill
to have a beautiful, healthy baby, and you know, what
was happening in the Middle East was unfolding, and I
had that in the back of my mind, is there
are so many things going on in the world where

(14:48):
mothers are losing their children. Here I am with the support,
here I am with the clinical knowledge, and why aren't
I coping?

Speaker 3 (14:56):
You know?

Speaker 4 (14:57):
I really felt like I was failing.

Speaker 2 (14:59):
But it's I think it's not uncommon for especially people
who go through IVF treatments or who have so desperately
wanted it for so long and then experiencing it. They
feel like they're not allowed to have any feelings of
and I'm not saying regret, but like sadness or hardship
or any of the other stuff that COEs hand in
hand with parenting. I think there is this kind of

(15:20):
like you should be grateful and don't speak about the
parts you're not grateful for because it will come across
as though maybe you regret it or maybe you were undeserving,
like the fertility privilege that's kind of all tied into it.

Speaker 3 (15:32):
I had that conversation with someone the other day, literally
in the last five days that had gone through IVF
a couple of times and they finally had their baby,
and they would never admit it to anyone else out loud,
but it was they were really struggling and they're like,
it's weird because this is what I wanted for so long.
And I had that conversation with them, I was like,
maybe you're experiencing something a lot of women experience, like

(15:55):
maybe you need to go and speak to somebody, and
you know, because you did want this, and of course
it's hard, but yeah, I think it's just that realization
of your life is different. But it doesn't mean you
can't experience something just because like both can be true.
Just because you wanted something so badly and just because
you paid money for it with IVF and you know
you've had all these failures to get it, that doesn't

(16:15):
mean that you're not allowed to simultaneously also mourn the
life that you used to have or feel sad. And
I guess that that is another internal battle and level
of guilt that is added on to the throes of
the already baby blues and depression.

Speaker 2 (16:26):
Yeah, what are the highest like indicators or risk factors
that people might have that would potentially indicate that they
could be someone who will go through Postpaton depression.

Speaker 4 (16:37):
Isolation is a really big one, So mums who are
quite isolated, and not just from having people around you,
because you can have people around you and still for
really alone. It's mums who don't feel like they can
talk about it or can even minn or acknowledge. So
that's a really big risk factor. You know, marginalized communities,
culturally diverse communities, people who had mental health before. So

(16:57):
they're all really important risk factors. But I also want
to acknowledge here that you can have all of those things.
You can you know, be well supported and you know,
have the money and the roof of your head, and
still really really struggling.

Speaker 2 (17:09):
I had a really interesting appointment recently, so I had
to go and have an iron infusion for this pregnancy
because my iron was non existent and the doctor I
was speaking to the specialist, there's apparently a whole loup
of research that's coming out that indicates that women who
have incredibly low iron are at a higher risk of
postpartum depression as well, which I had no knowledge of.

(17:31):
And I mean it's not something that I think most
people would even know. You go, oh, like, I'll be fine,
you get through it. But it's so interesting that the
different ways in which they now finding out can impact
to women past having their baby.

Speaker 3 (17:44):
How long after your birth did you experience depression? And
then I guess how long did that last for? How
long were you struggling for that? Because you have come
out the other side now.

Speaker 4 (17:54):
Yeah, mostly I still mostly have my days, which is
common for postpartum depression as well. I think that's actually
really common. Myth is that once you threw you through
and everything sunshine and rainbows, But that's not the that's
not the reality at all. Yeah, So I really noticed
symptoms from about four months into it, which is actually
not a really standard time to experience postpund depression. Usually

(18:14):
for most mothers that happens, you know, within a couple
of weeks actually after the post you know, baby blues
actually just never go away. And yeah, I've seen you
guys just before that. It was only a couple of
months ago that I really started to wake up without
that lump in my throat, without that dread of the day.
And I remember one of the first days I woke
up without that and I thought, my god, I died.

(18:35):
Is this heaven I can Yeah, Like I heard the
birds chirping and I was thinking, wow, you know, and
so that was a really nice moment of this feels nice.

Speaker 3 (18:47):
And so that's till your daughter was nearly two. So
that's quite a amount of time because I think a
lot of people think, maybe, you know, a couple of
months or six months, but yours was quite a long time.

Speaker 4 (18:57):
Eighteen months.

Speaker 3 (18:58):
Yeah, what were the signs for you? What do your
day to day look like that you knew that this
was depression. And I say that because a lot of
women at home will be thinking about their feelings and
their day to day and wondering if it is, if
it isn't, what you know, what did it look like
every single day for you?

Speaker 4 (19:14):
Yeah, And I think there's such a spectrum of what
postpartum depression looks like. Postpartum depression can be not wanting
to get out of bed. It's waking up with dread.
It's not wanting to bond with your child. It's you know,
struggling to get to work, not doing your self care activities,
not being able to exercise. But it can also look
like going to work and putting on a happy face.

(19:35):
It can also look like a mother who looks like
they're coping. It really on a deeper level, for me,
it was just this intense guilt, this intense fear of
failure of why am I not coping? And every night,
I remember, I'd almost get into bed and I would
just be crying most nights, like I would just be like,
why am I not coping? Why am I not okay?

(19:58):
What is so wrong with me? I should know this,
I should have it together.

Speaker 3 (20:03):
I've just gotta yeah, like suck it up, not coping?
Like what did the not coping look like? I don't
mean to pry, but I guess understanding of what that
actually how that reflects your bond with your child. Maybe
did you have like a level of resentment or did
you not want to do things for your child that
maybe you knew you should. Do you know, we're distancing yourself,
or were you trying to palm it off to your
husband or I guess all of those little feelings because

(20:25):
I think most people, myself included, we get into bed
at night cryal the time. But like, what, yeah, what
was the connection like through the day with your child?

Speaker 4 (20:33):
Yeah, so obviously on my time with her, I felt
really tired, like I didn't want to connect with her.
I had all these ideas of things I think I
should be doing. I should be getting out of the house,
should be going to mother's group, should be going to
a babe sensory and all those things, and I just
didn't have the energy. I just didn't want to. And
I was really mindful not to, you know, be an
absent mother, because I know how much attachment and being

(20:53):
a present parent is important. But at the same time,
I was like, I'm not bonding with you. I'm seeing
other mothers describe this love right like this love of
I just love them so much. I remember there's assuming
lesson I went to with this mum, just being like
how good is motherhood?

Speaker 3 (21:08):
When you alone? You're like, totally, can you take my
child home with you?

Speaker 1 (21:14):
I have two of them?

Speaker 4 (21:17):
And there was yeah, that guilt again of like oh
my god, why am I not enjoying this?

Speaker 3 (21:21):
So then did you fake it?

Speaker 1 (21:22):
Then?

Speaker 4 (21:22):
Were you like yeah, I love it absolutely, And I
was like it's the best. But yeah, Like so there's
the motherhood part, and then there's a part of like,
your relationships are feeling so resentful for your partner, but
they can't you know that that postpartum resentment is real.
Postponum rage is you know, intense, So your relationships are
impacted and I withdrew from a lot of my relationships
because I was so embarrassed and ashamed and also in denial.

(21:44):
I was like, I'm just like, oh, I just don't
should know this. Why am I not able to cope?

Speaker 1 (21:49):
How did you deal with the rage part? Because I
think you know.

Speaker 3 (21:51):
You're asking for a friend.

Speaker 1 (21:55):
No, but it's something that.

Speaker 2 (21:57):
When you are so tired, and I mean, obviously I
can't speak to having postparton depression. But I can definitely
speak to like feeling to the fucking rage, like yeah,
and it's you know, it's I'm not saying it's directed
to my husband. He's great, but it's just like this
feeling of being angry, which I think a lot of
mum's experience, especially when their tank is empty, there's nothing

(22:17):
left in it.

Speaker 3 (22:18):
Sure tempered, I guess as well, because like you don't
have anything left. The wick has been burned.

Speaker 1 (22:22):
Yeah, So it's like.

Speaker 3 (22:23):
Smaller things probably set you off quicker than something else.

Speaker 4 (22:25):
Yeah, because you've got no you're right, no gas in
the tank. I think it goes against what I like
to call the perfect mother myth. You know that the
perfect mother is gentle and patient and kind and you know,
self sacrifices. She never gets angry, she's never regretting having children,
she's not allowed to be disorganized. And so rage is
such a comment and it's enormous once. I think, just

(22:46):
reminding yourself that your tank is empty, you're allowed to
be angry, No wonder you're angry. Anger is a sign
of injustice. Anger is your way of coping with like
this feels really unfair, and it often stems from resentment,
like I don't know if you've ever experienced that, like, oh,
why isn't my partner doing more coping with anger? It
is just firstly, for so many women, they feel like
they're allowed to be angry. There's this kind of it's

(23:08):
kind of a bit messed up. There's this socialized idea
that women shouldn't be angry and we need to be
angry anger it's normal and healthy. So acknowledging that you're
allowed to be angry.

Speaker 3 (23:18):
I think that that's an important thing to talk about too.
It's and Laura, I remember, I don't want to speak
for you, but I remember the one story it's always
stuck with me with Lola, which is Laura second. But
I remember you had just been going through it. You
were doing a lot of single parenting because Matt had
been on Dancing Stars. Do you know the story?

Speaker 1 (23:34):
I'm going to tell you no, I don't. I just
remember that whole period.

Speaker 2 (23:36):
I remember the Dancing with the Stars period, and I I.

Speaker 3 (23:39):
Just remember this one story. You just hadn't slept, you
had a newborn, you had a toddler, Matt was away,
and I just remember Lola had been she was an
unhappy baby. She was like a bit unhealthy, like colleague
or something. She just cried a lot. And I remember
you just saying Matt walked in the door after like
fifteen hours and she was screaming, and you didn't even
say anything. You just like thrust her in his arm

(24:00):
and you're like, I'm leaving, and you went for.

Speaker 1 (24:02):
A drive because you were like, Y know it was
it was actually the opposite of that.

Speaker 2 (24:05):
So Matt came home this day and he'd been out
and I was not coping like this is probably I
mean for me. My baby blues with Lola extended for
quite a while, but she was a She didn't sleep
for ten weeks. She slept only on me, and I
slept to sleep sitting up in a bed. And then
Matt was away working, so I had to do the
both kids, and it was really hard and I was working,
so it was a it was a time. It was
a time. It was a really really hard time. And

(24:28):
how I came out of that and still wanting a
third I don't know.

Speaker 3 (24:30):
Well it took five years. God, I've forgot gotten you
flucked it out.

Speaker 2 (24:36):
But he came home from training this one day and
I was inter used or being upset about something, and
he was like, I know it's really hard at the moment.
And I was like, but you don't know because you're
not here, so you don't have any understanding of how
hard it is. And I was like, I'm really fucking
not coping. And we have a rule in our relationship
where we don't swear, like when we're you know, usually

(24:57):
it's you don't swear at each other, not that you
just can't swear in text. And he was like, I
don't really feel like now it's a good time for
you to be swearing. And I was like, you know what,
I reckon. Now it's a good time for you to
go fuck yourself. And I handed him Lola and I
left and I went to my sister's house, and I
just remember that two hours at my sister's house was
probably the most enjoyable two hours I'd had in the
six weeks since Lola had been born. And I came

(25:19):
home and the poor guy Lola was screaming.

Speaker 1 (25:22):
I could hear her from.

Speaker 2 (25:23):
The car park, poor guy, that was your day. No,
I know, but I could hear from the car park.
And I walked inside and he was like, I can't
believe you would leave without her being fed, Like, I've
just been dealing with her screaming for two hours. And
I was like, honey, I fed her just before you
walked in the door. That's what she does all day,
all day. And he was like, oh my god, I
get it. And he was like the first well, he

(25:45):
got it as much as he could possibly get at
the time, and he like, really, no, he got it.
And then he got me help, you know, like he
got support because he couldn't physically be there. But it
would have ruined our relationship had something not been fixed
in that moment.

Speaker 3 (25:59):
You can see why so many relationships don't survive.

Speaker 1 (26:02):
Yeah, And it's serious.

Speaker 2 (26:03):
It's tricky because you know, I always say I say
to friends who have little babies and who are going
through the absolute trenches of their relationship, because it does
affect your relationship. You know, even people have an amazing
relationship and have wonderful babies, it still affects your relationship
in ways. And I always sort of say, don't make
permanent decisions around how you feel about your partner until

(26:23):
your kid is too. I was like, because you will
feel lots of feelings towards them and maybe they'll be
great and maybe they'll be terrible, but like, give it
the chance to come good on the other side. And
you know, so many of my friends who have been
through it with their partners and with having little kids,
their kids are like four, five, six now and they're
back to being amazing. But I think we underestimate how

(26:44):
much it really rattles your relationship.

Speaker 4 (26:45):
Yeah, it has such a big impact on your relationships.
And divorce rates are like the highest when your baby
is about the term.

Speaker 1 (26:50):
Yeah, totally.

Speaker 3 (26:51):
It's white so weird. When people are like, oh, really,
she's on the rocks, let's have a band aid baby,
I'm like, that's the quickest way to get to the
to the lawyers, Like that is the wrong idea.

Speaker 1 (27:00):
How did it impact your relationship?

Speaker 4 (27:02):
Oh, it definitely had a really big impact on my
relationship because you know, we were both working, we both
run our own business. We were trying to do it
all and we just weren't. We just weren't doing it
all together. And I was so resentful. I was like,
you don't understand, you know, as much as they try
and understand, and they're saying all the right things, Like
from a psychological lands, it's like validating and like be

(27:23):
like I understand.

Speaker 3 (27:24):
It's like you're like your emotional challenges is great, but
you don't really.

Speaker 4 (27:28):
How don't need your freaking logic Like I don't need Yeah,
but yeah, it really impacted us. You know, we even
had talks about, you know, separation because we were just
so unhappy. But I also knew that that wouldn't have
made us feel better, that would not have improved anything.
But I was so angry, and I think a part
of it on on me is I should have reached

(27:49):
out for help a lot earlier, like I was projecting.
And I can see that now, But when you're in
the midst of it, you're so angry because their life
doesn't change like it feels. I mean, it does, but
not to the same extent that it does you.

Speaker 3 (28:00):
And they can still leave when they want. They don't
have to physically be tethered to the child to keep
it alive.

Speaker 4 (28:04):
I remember my husband saying, like, I have to go
to work. I was like, you get to go to
like even just the drive to work. He said, I've
got to drive for an hour and I was like what.

Speaker 1 (28:13):
I wouldn't get.

Speaker 2 (28:14):
It's funny how you start fantasizing about things that you
would have hated back in the day, you know, like that's,
oh god, guys, I've really forgotten what this period's like.
I like that took that marathon running my new hobby.

Speaker 3 (28:27):
He's running for four hours at a time.

Speaker 1 (28:29):
It's so funny. Like even so, we've got this house
down South Coast.

Speaker 2 (28:32):
It's a three hour drive from where we live to
get to it, and so many moms go because we'll
take two cars when we drive down there, because we've
got the doll we've got the kids, we got luggage
doesn't all fit in one car. And people are like,
who takes the kids? And I'm like, usually, Matten, they
go three hours in the car by yourself. Like that's
fucking amazing. And I'm like, isn't it crazy that this
is what.

Speaker 3 (28:51):
On real estate? She goes, Baby, I found a house
in Tasmania. I think I'm gonna put in for it.
How did it affect your husband?

Speaker 4 (29:00):
He had some pretty serious mental health, you know, his
own challenges, but he didn't feel like he could talk
about it because I was in the throws of postpartum depression.
Like I think that fathers and you know, other parents
they may feel really simple, and I think that's a
really common experience for the partners because they're like, well,
the focus is on the mother and looking after her,

(29:20):
but who looks after the dad? So yeah, he really struggled,
and understandably, you know, my daughter also wasn't a great sleeper,
were up every ninety minutes, and he felt like, I
want to help, but I just can't. I don't have
the boobs, I don't have that soothing that you have,
and biologically I know that's true. I was like, but
you should, you know, like I just wish that you could.

(29:42):
So yeah, I think fathers really go under the radar.
It's a one in ten chance that a father can
be diagnosed with depression, but I actually think it's not
screened enough. I think that would be much higher.

Speaker 2 (29:53):
Do they call it postpartum depression for men or is
it just called something else because obviously they don't have
the hormone changes that go along with that.

Speaker 4 (29:59):
Yeah, it's actually called paternal postpartum depression, right, So it's
it's distinct from postpartum depression because that is very you know,
centric around mothers and the hormone shift. But it's notwithstanding
that it is still really real with any big adjustment, right,
Like that is such a vulnerable time for anyone to
go through a big life adjustment. So for fathers, for
people who are non binary, you know, people who don't

(30:20):
get down the typical path of conception through IBF, through adoption.
That's all really important to talk about. It is such
a and it's unfortunately not really being research at the moment.

Speaker 3 (30:29):
I guess there's a like I understand it, but there
is a level where you're like, can't women just have
one thing like the birth the thing like we understand
it's a huge life change for men. Of course it is,
and of course they're also going to be woken up
and have those feelings, but there's a part of it.
It's like, of course they need to be looked after,
but at the end of the day, it's it's a
woman's body and actually like the physiological changes that are

(30:51):
attached to it.

Speaker 2 (30:52):
But I also think that's kind of part of the problem,
that mentality, because I do think that a lot of
men don't speak about it, and like, you know, when
your partners had such a personality shift because they're struggling
as well. And then you also have a baby waking
you up every ninety minutes, and you have a wife
who's screaming and crying.

Speaker 1 (31:08):
All the time.

Speaker 2 (31:08):
It's like it's really hard to come home and be
the stable person in that environment for potentially years and
still show up unaffected.

Speaker 3 (31:17):
So now I don't disagree with that, but I still
stand by just give you one thing.

Speaker 2 (31:22):
Yeah, you mentioned to us before we started recording that
like it's kind of gone in a bit of a
cycle for you guys. You've had this time in terms
of being your mental health being at the forefront of
the relationship and the conversation, and now your partners step
forward and being like, hey, I also haven't been coping,
and so you kind of like pass the baton in
terms of, like, you know, the self care.

Speaker 4 (31:41):
Aspect, absolutely, because really, I mean, one of you needs
to be stable. Like unfortunately it sucks, but one of
you does need to step up and be that stable person.
Particularly for a lot of fathers, they are also the
financial you know, stability as well, and so there's a
lot of pressure on fathers. So now you know, I've
gone through therapy, and you know, I feel like I'm

(32:02):
at a really good spot now I almost feel like,
of course I want to support you. Of course it's
your time. Of course you're allowed to fall apart because
you've had to hold it together for a really long time.

Speaker 2 (32:11):
Yeah, what's there, Like, what characterizes someone who is high
functioning with postpartum depression because you kind of describe yourself
as that in the first place.

Speaker 1 (32:18):
What is the difference.

Speaker 4 (32:20):
There's not a lot of narrative around it. I mean,
it's not an official diagnosis high functioning postpartum depression, but
there is something called high functioning depression, and it actually
is at odds with what typical postpartum depression looks like,
which is why it's actually really hard to pick up.
And a lot of the moms I've worked with now
I have that in the back of my mind of
you look like you're coping, but actually you're probably not.
You're using functionality being high functioning as a bit of

(32:42):
a mask, because really functioning is a way of coping
with a loss of control. So, you know, I went
back to work at three months, I know, run a
couple of businesses. I was training for a marathon, which
you know, thanks Brett, you've actually just psychoonaized in us,
you know, speaking conferences. You know, I look like I
was doing it all. And within my friendship group, I'm

(33:03):
the you know, I'm the token therapist. So I was
like supporting friends who were going through a postpartumer. I
was the one that was checking in. I would they'd
get to their kind of baby blue mark and I'd
be like, just want to check in to see how
you're going, or the four month regression. So I felt
like I was doing all the things. You know, I
actually looked different to what you would see a typical
mother going through postpartum, looking like I was getting out

(33:24):
of bed. I was doing all the things, and yet
actually I was using that to cope. I was so
deeply I was so disconnected on the inside. I was
so deeply empty, and I think that that went under
the radar. That's why I invalidated myself for a really
long time.

Speaker 3 (33:39):
It is giving Laura Burn. I am getting characteristics of
Laura Burn every week.

Speaker 1 (33:47):
Potentially do live in denial, But.

Speaker 3 (33:50):
Yeah, I don't think that's interesting too because maybe for you, specifically,
on top of like every other feeling that you had
and navigating it on your own, you are aground with
your job for trauma dumping like your job all days
to take on other people's you know, and stresses and
depression and problems. What are some of the feelings that

(34:11):
women would feel when they're experiencing postpartum depression that they
might not have ever felt before in terms of intrusive
thoughts or levels of anxiety when they've never had an
anxiety attack in their life.

Speaker 4 (34:22):
Yeah, Intrusive thoughts are a really big one. Intrusive thoughts
are just like no other postpartum postpartum rage, postpartum depletion,
just feeling perpetually exhausted, body immit A lot of body
image concerns will come up because you know, even if
you've had a pretty healthy body immulate history, body image,
you know, pregnancy throws everything out of the window.

Speaker 1 (34:43):
Yeah, definitely.

Speaker 4 (34:44):
Yeah, and then as idea to bounce back as well. So, yeah,
a lot of anxiety, a lot of depression and sleep deprivation.
You're at it is such a slow form of torture
and what that can do to your cognitive functioning. It
just shuts you off from just being out of cope
with daily life. So women who are you know, high
functioning high they go from doing it all to just
being like I can't even get the words out, you know,

(35:04):
I can't even focus on the shopping list. And that
is so that is such a significant change in someone's life.
And yeah, of course you're going to experience depression or
anxiety from that.

Speaker 1 (35:15):
Is that a thing? I mean, we've spoken.

Speaker 2 (35:16):
He's about postpartum depression, and I'm not sure if this
is your field of study as well, but postpartum psychosis. Yeah,
and what is the difference between the two.

Speaker 4 (35:24):
So postpartum psychosis is almost women looking at from a
spectrum we've got, you know, postpartum depression there, and postpartum
psychosis is where a lot of those symptoms are intensified
even further. So it's a signal that postpartum depression likely
has gone untradd but it doesn't necessarily come from postpartum
depression on its own. Postpartum psychosis is where, particularly for
women who are sleep deprived and you have a history

(35:46):
of bipolar and depression, are more likely to experience psychosis.
So what that looks like is starting to disconnect from reality.
So it can be episodes of hallucinations, and it can
be you know, hearing voices. Everything that we know about
psychosis it's a total disconnect from reality. And that's a
really that's really serious, so frightening, really really scary.

Speaker 3 (36:06):
What did social media do for you in this time
in terms of did you find it a place of
support or a place that exacerbated the dark feelings that
you've got. You know, we've got this comparison culture. You're
looking at all the other mums who were turning up
and having this perfect life and the perfect balanced back body,
and we don't know if it's real.

Speaker 4 (36:25):
Did you find that to be a really detrimental tool
or a helpful tool for you? Yeah, really detrimental. And
a lot of mums that I work with agree. But also,
you know, obviously as a psychologist, stay follow a lot
of psychologists pages, and I think that made it a
lot worse as well, because I was following a lot
of psychologists who are mums and a lot of you know,
attachment pages, and I just kept getting in undated with

(36:48):
what's the right way to parent from an attachment framework.
I was like, I should know this right, like this
is my bread and butter. And I think it made
it so much worse for me. I actually just had
to learn to disc and I actually remember one night,
where as you do, as you start to go on
a journey of self diagnosis. I was like Reddit, I
just need someone on Reddit to give me permission that

(37:08):
it's okay.

Speaker 1 (37:10):
Am I the asshole? I don't like being a mom.

Speaker 3 (37:13):
I can.

Speaker 2 (37:16):
Something I want to talk to you about, and I
want to be clear because I don't want you to
think as though I feel like it's a very loaded question.
But one thing we don't get to speak about is regret.
I think you make a choice to be a mom.
That choice is not one you can take back on.
You can't turnroun and go, well, that didn't work out
for me. I guess I'll put this kid up for adoption,
leave it at the foster bound biggest few. But it

(37:36):
is something that some women experience, and you know, it
doesn't mean that they're not great mums and they can't
continue to be good mums, but they didn't find motherhood
to be the joy or the self fulfilling thing that
they were expecting it to be all along. Is this
something that you have patients present with and how do
you work through these feelings?

Speaker 4 (37:54):
Yeah, it's actually really common. It's just not spoken about
in a lot of the work that I do. I
often find I need to need at first, because not
a lot of clients will put that information forward and
let them know that it's okay to feel regret. It
doesn't mean that you're a bad mother. It doesn't mean
it doesn't you don't love your child. Often, regret is
rooted in yearning for what used to be yearning for flexibility, autonomy,

(38:15):
power over your life, and I think motherhood can really
impact on those things. So regrets are really really common
feeling with not just postpartum depression, but just in motherhood,
in matressance. It's something that really impacts so many mums,
but there is so much taboo around it. Like how
often have you heard someone say I really regret.

Speaker 2 (38:33):
No, there's a random person that says it in an
Instagram post and you're like, your kid's reading that.

Speaker 1 (38:38):
It's funny.

Speaker 3 (38:38):
Laura and I talk about it all the time because
I'm on this quest to find out if I should
have kids or not, and I teeter all the time
and like we have this conversation like off podcasts like
just as friends, and I'm like, I just don't believe.
I don't think people talking about it enough. I don't
believe there's not more moms out there that regret it.

(38:59):
I just know that they're don't feel comfortably talking about it.
And exactly what you said, regret doesn't mean you don't
love your child, and it doesn't mean I guess you
even wish you didn't have them. But there is a
feeling of like, if I could go back, would I
do it again?

Speaker 1 (39:14):
And a lot of.

Speaker 3 (39:15):
People say no, yeah, yeah, And it's just I think
it's one of those things and it's interesting to hear
you say it from the other side, like you know,
behind the closed doors is that a lot of women
are feeling it and it's okay to feel it if
you're listening right now. Yeah, And because people aren't talking
about it, the people that do feel it feel.

Speaker 1 (39:31):
Really alone and feel all the guilt.

Speaker 3 (39:33):
And the shame.

Speaker 4 (39:34):
And there's already so much guilt and shame around being
a mother. I remember I had this moment of what
have I done? You know, do I regret becoming a mum?
And you're right, two things can be true. You can
love your child. You can you know, really enjoy the
time with them and miss the old life and think
if I went back, what I do things differently. Two
things can be true. It's not one or the other. Yeah,

(39:55):
And I think regret can live with love, regret can
live with bonding and love. And I love this part
of me, but I also really miss the part of
me that had freedom, you know, that connected with my
work life identity, that you know, wanted to travel. And
it's allowing two things to be true because regret is
instantly met with shame. Right, I shouldn't be thinking this.

Speaker 3 (40:17):
I think the word you just use that I gravitate to,
that I like, and I think is really like representative
of the experience, but it's autonomy, like it's your autonomy
of your body and your life is because you don't
live for you anymore. You don't live for your partner anymore.
You live for this child that you need to keep alive.
And every decision you make for the rest of your
life is for that child. That's a really big wait

(40:39):
for somebody to feel when last week they didn't have
to feel it. And then all of a sudden, you're
adapting to this, the fact that you don't really in
a way own your life. Your life, well, I'm trying
not to be so doom and gloom, but it is,
and I think we've really under I don't want to
say undersell it, but I don't think we speak about it.

(40:59):
And maybe that's a question like your expectation of motherhood
before you went to pregnancy and the way people talk
about it and the way you know, the things you
read about it. Do you think you were prepared enough
when you went into motherhood and you became a mother
or do you think we're not talking about it in
the right way and like actually pulling.

Speaker 4 (41:18):
Back the curtain. Yeah, I definitely was not prepared. And
that's saying something for someone who has had a lot
of knowledge and you know, understanding into motherhood. So I
can imagine for people who don't have as much understanding
into matressants and motherhood. I think there's this theory of
the front stage in the backstage of motherhood. The front
stage is this perfect mother what we present to the world.

(41:39):
I'm happy, I'm grateful, I'm appreciative, But then the backstage
is this with this kind of darkness. I don't feel
like I can talk about actually how I'm really feeling
in that I regret having children, or I'm not happy
or I just don't love the newborn bubble. I don't
love this age, and that's so okay.

Speaker 2 (41:55):
I also think that the spectrum is so vast because
there are people who have childre and they're like, this
is what I was put on earth to do and
to be. That version of motherhood exists as well. And
then there's the version of motherhood where they're like, fuck
that that newborn stage was a.

Speaker 1 (42:10):
Wild bit of gear. But toddlers are grey, you know.

Speaker 2 (42:12):
And I think that it is so varied people's experience
of it, how they show up in motherhood, also the
support that they receive, whether they have a dead shit
partner who does nothing and they're doing everything, or they
have a partner who shows up in parody, Like, all
of these things will impact your experience of being a mum.
So you're never going to be able to have one
conversation or read everybody else's motherhood journeys and be like, aha,

(42:36):
I know that if I have kids, I'll regret it,
or I know if I have kids, I'm gonna love.

Speaker 1 (42:40):
It, because you just don't know.

Speaker 2 (42:41):
It's truly something that you will not know the answer
to until you do it yourself.

Speaker 3 (42:45):
Yeah, and also you might have a baby that sleeps
twelve hours a night, one that's up every ninety minutes
or every sixty minutes or whatever else. What are people
that might think that they are in the throes of
post nail depression? Now, what do you suggest they do?

Speaker 4 (43:00):
One of my best tips is if you're asking yourself
the question do I have postputum depression? That's the sign.
You know, because of how layered motherhood is, there's this shame,
there's this guilt around not coping. But I think for
so many mothers that I speak to the fact that
they have are asking. You know, they often say, I

(43:20):
don't know, do I have postputum depression? And I think
nine times out of ten, if they've asked himself the
question they do.

Speaker 3 (43:26):
It's like if you ask like do you think he
likes me? He probably doesn't like. If you're asking that question.

Speaker 2 (43:31):
I will say, if you're googling should I break up
with him? The answer yes, yeah, exactly.

Speaker 3 (43:34):
It's very similar.

Speaker 4 (43:36):
You know the answer you're on raddit speed, you know,
such as you probably you don't need to have a chat,
but you know, there's that and I think it's just
the not coping. It's it's if you're really struggling day
to day. And I don't mean as though you're in
bed every day. I mean if you're getting into bed
at nighttime and thinking, oh, I'm dreading the next day,
or I'm really struggling at the moment, when will this end?

(43:58):
Even if you don't make criteria for a post fun depression,
that is still a really important time to reach out.
And I always think, and I have this like crazy
metaphor and that if I was sitting with a client
and they were, you know, sitting acrossrom and they're saying,
I'm really struggling my body image, i hate my partner,
I'm feeling so much rage, and I'm feeling suicidal and
I'm so angry and I'm so low, and I'd be like,

(44:20):
oh my gosh. You know, the red flags would be
going off my mind and you know, wanting to make
sure that they're okay. But as soon as you put
this cloak of motherhood on, it's like, oh, well.

Speaker 3 (44:29):
That's normal, welcome to the club.

Speaker 4 (44:31):
Yeah, oh that sucks.

Speaker 3 (44:32):
It's so true.

Speaker 1 (44:33):
Yeah, what are some of.

Speaker 3 (44:34):
The intrusive thoughts that women experience that you know your
patient's experience will tell you about.

Speaker 4 (44:39):
Yeah, so Intrusive thoughts exist because of what's happening in
your mind to try and keep your baby safe. So
every everything you thought about the world as being safe
totally switches when you have a baby. It can be anything,
and for a lot of women, it's about baby safety
or doing something wrong.

Speaker 2 (44:55):
So all the time, I don't know a single mum
who doesn't have intrusive thoughts. I was laying in bed
the day, literally just laying in bed, and then I
was thinking it was nighttime and my kids are safe
in their own beds, and I was thinking about the
kids going because they sometimes play at the front of
our house, which is very safe area. It's locked off,
but I was like, but if the gate was open
and Lala went down to the street and then a

(45:17):
soccer ball went out, and then I just had this
visual image of her being hit by a car, and
then couldn't stop thinking about Lola being hit by a car,
and like, this is the thing. You just have this
loop cycle of an absolute catastrophe. And it's because now
I will never let them play out the front because
now I've just created this thing in my head where
Lala's going to get hit by a car.

Speaker 3 (45:35):
Yeah, it's crazy and it just came from nowhere.

Speaker 1 (45:37):
I came.

Speaker 2 (45:38):
I was literally in bed, not thinking about anything, and
then I thought of a soccer ball, and then I thought,
two seconds later, I'm watching this play on loop in
my head, and it's like traumatizing.

Speaker 1 (45:46):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, you see it happen.

Speaker 4 (45:49):
Yeah, it's awful. It is awful. So and a lot
of it tends to be around and what if I
drop my baby or what if I remember when I
was walking once, I was like, oh my god, there's
so many tree branches up there, and it was sprinting.
I was think, oh my god, I could die. She
could die. Like all those things that you just put
trust in in the world, everything comes into questions. So
anything it could be accidentally hurting your baby, but even

(46:09):
more going to the other end of it, where you know,
if you're holding a kitchen knife, you think, what if
I acidentally stab my baby? Like really quite intense thoughts,
and I really want to remind anyone listening this is
not an indication that it will happen at all, but
it's not an indication that you want something to happen.
There's this myth that more I think about it the
more I'm manifesting it. That is not true. It actually
is a sign of that. What your brain is trying

(46:30):
to do is to stop that from happening. It's trying
to make it, you know, for example, the soccer, soccer ball,
You're trying to stop that from happening and doing everything
you can.

Speaker 3 (46:37):
And that's obviously like Laula started playing soccer on the weekend,
So it's now you're you're in that next chapter in your.

Speaker 2 (46:42):
Own But it also just doesn't stop, you know, that's
the thing I think. Obviously it's worse when you're a
new mum and you have newborn babies. You know, you
have those moments where you wake up and you would
have been breastfeeding, you put the baby back in the
bassinet and you wake up and you're like, where's my
baby and you're like looking in the bed for your kids.

Speaker 1 (46:57):
Like it's the weirdest feeling.

Speaker 2 (46:58):
I think most mums have experience it, and I mean,
I guess for some people, like it lessens in intensity,
but it never just goes away. You never like this
is just a whole new worry that exists within your brain.

Speaker 4 (47:09):
It just levels up.

Speaker 3 (47:10):
Yeah, totally, So that they've clocked that they've got these feelings.
And then do you recommend going straight to a GP,
do you recommend going to see a therapist or a psychologist?
What's your steps?

Speaker 4 (47:20):
I think first port ecolog GPS fantastic. You know, if
you have a really supportive GP, they'll be really understanding.
They'll probably do some screeners with you and ask you
some questions. You can absolutely go to a psychologist. It
depends also on you know, for a lot of mother's
financial situations can really a barrier to accessing supports. So
the Gidget Foundation and Panda Organization they offer free counseling,

(47:41):
which is fantastic, So that's always a step you can take,
or even just researching a bit more information if you
don't feel ready to take that step, just researching and
starting to get you know, your head around what is it?
And this could be me? But yeah, your GP can
give you your referral for a psychologist. You can get
rebates from that as well.

Speaker 3 (47:58):
And I guess just maybe making sure those people around
you know that you're struggling or that you need help,
like your friends or your family, your partner, especially if
you don't have the resources to go and maybe seek
help immediately. Obviously a GP, you absolutely can that you
can go to a free GP, but I guess just
making sure somebody in your life knows.

Speaker 4 (48:14):
And this letting you're right, letting people in is often
the hardest because it letting people in might be acknowledging
that I'm not coping and for so many mums that
feels really hard to come to terms with. And also
asking them to do some research too can be really helpful.

Speaker 3 (48:28):
How do you feel about and I guess what are
what's the information or the stats behind medication when you
are in the throes of that? Can you be taking
medication when you're breastfeeding? Can like talk to us about
that option for people that might need more help than
just therapy and support.

Speaker 4 (48:45):
Yeah, medication is a wonderful tool to have in your toolkit.
It shouldn't be used for everything, I think in conjunction
with lifestyle and therapy and supports. It's wonderful. There are
certainly some medications you can take while breastfeeding, and your
doctor will be able to help you out with that
because you also might be taking other metass that you
know haven't interplay there, so and it's really important that
you do, and your doctor will likely have a conversation

(49:06):
with you about medication.

Speaker 2 (49:07):
You know, I think as well in terms of not
just the roots to take, but like the things that
you need. From a self preservation perspective, I think we
put a lot of pressures on ourselves, Like the breastfeeding conversation.
People put so much pressure on themselves to breastfeed because
it's you know, it's what's going to be best for
the baby. But if it's not best for you and
your mental health, I kind of think, like, make decisions
that are also best holistically for both of you.

Speaker 1 (49:30):
And for Matt and I personally.

Speaker 2 (49:32):
I know that the best decision I made was when
Lola went onto a bottle, and she went onto a
bottle early, and it was because I wasn't the one
having to do everything. Yeah, well I wasn't coping, and
it meant in the nighttime Matt was feeding her and
it was just a sacrifice that we made and it
made such a massive difference to me. And then there
was a part of me that was like, but don't
tell anyone, because then people would judge that you took
her off, you put her on a bottle at two

(49:53):
and a half months and I was like, well, I
literally would not have been able to cope otherwise.

Speaker 3 (49:57):
So it makes you a better parent for the rest
of you your parenting and.

Speaker 1 (50:00):
For my other kid as well. Yeah, totally. I mean
also like, do whatever you want.

Speaker 2 (50:05):
I'm not here telling people how they should or shouldn't, like,
you know, take care of their kids. But for me,
it was something that massively helped, and I think it
probably prevented things from getting a lot worse for me
for the trajectory that I was on with Lola.

Speaker 3 (50:17):
And so I guess now, just to finish it, you
said you were like, for want of a better word,
mostly out the other side, where the sun is shining
again and you're hearing the birds again, and you feel happier,
but not quite you still have your down days. I'm
assuming that that is very common when you come out
of something like this. It's not like you're like, I
woke up and I'm good again.

Speaker 4 (50:35):
Really really common because a lot of the narrative online
actually I was researching only a couple months ago for
a client. A lot of the narrative is I'm through
it and everything's back to normal, and now I know
what to do for my next brignancy, and that is
not the case at all. You know, you're you may
be at risk for if you were to have another
child for developing post natal depression. You're still going to
have your days. You're still going to have your days

(50:57):
of dread and shame and guilt of I'm not doing
the right thing, I'm not feeding well, or they're not
sleeping well. And I just really want to remind anyone
listening that even if you are having more good days,
that's fantastic, but just because you might have a bad
day or a couple of bad days or a week
or whatever, that is a really normal response to the
intense struggles of motherhood. That is actually a really understandable

(51:19):
response for everything you've been through and your body has
been through like a turbulent rollercoaster that we just expect
to be back to normal. To get back to my
level of normal sleep, I don't know what you call it,
sleep debt, Like I was in a lot of sleep debt.
It's almost taken. Like you know, it's been two months
now and I'm still not out of that sleep debt yet.

Speaker 2 (51:37):
I Mean, the last thing I kind of want to
say on this is when you have really little kids
and you haven't kind of you know, I'm talking newborn
and undertoo. You feel like it's going to be that
state of motherhood forever, like when you're in the trenches.
The trenches feel like they never ever ever are going
to kind of you can never going to climb.

Speaker 1 (51:54):
Out of them.

Speaker 2 (51:55):
And I think now looking back on that experience for myself,
if you'd ask me a doola whether we would have
a third I would have said, no fucking.

Speaker 1 (52:04):
Way, Like it's too hard, No fucking way.

Speaker 2 (52:08):
But now we have a six year old and almost
five year old and parenting is so.

Speaker 1 (52:12):
Easy, so we're here to fuck it up again.

Speaker 2 (52:14):
But no, But it's really hard to see how the
different phases are going to be. And every time I
see anything on social media, like I saw I saw
a thing the other day and I got me so
riled up, and it was like a new mom who
had a baby and she's like you know when you
say to a toddler mom like, oh, this is really hard,
and they're like, well wait until they're toddler's and I'm
like no, Like, for me, nothing was harder than newborn phase.

(52:37):
Nothing was harder than having little babies, and of course
parenting is still challenging at different ages. I'm not discrediting
anyone's experience around parenting, but my experience parenting a four
year old and a five year old is a shit
ton easier than parenting a newborn baby, and or even
like not even you were like six months or four
months going through that regression, and I think like whatever

(52:58):
stage of it that you're in, it's an impermanent stage
as well, and knowing that is very good for your
sense of self and like, if this is terrible, it's
not gonna be like this forever.

Speaker 3 (53:08):
I know, and I have feel like we getting even
deeper now. But I just think those people can't ever
know that because they haven't done it yet. So totally,
I feel like when someone is saying I just feel
like I'll never get out of this, I think the
answer is to just listen. Yes, you know, because you
can say to them it'll get better. But for them,
they're so deep in life.

Speaker 2 (53:24):
But the reason why I say it is because I
feel like the narrative online is like motherhood doesn't get
any easier, it just gets harder. You think this is hard, yeah,
when they're like little people little problems, big kids, big problems.
It's like, it's not like, let's stop terrorizing motherhood. It's
not always I know there's hard parts to it, but
it's not always that version. And like you can come

(53:45):
out through the other side and be like, oh my god,
that postpun depression, that parenting of small children was horrifying,
and now it's feeling fun. And I guess like that,
it's like I don't want to lean into the fear
that it's just always going to be in a certain
static space.

Speaker 3 (53:59):
Yeah, And I think that comes back to the fact
that like, no parenting journey is ever going to be
the same as somebody else's, because there are peoples who's
the newborn stage is the best ever because they've got
a problem child or something's happened, you know, like.

Speaker 1 (54:10):
Totally like the drug addicts, and they're like.

Speaker 3 (54:12):
Fuck, their child is not easier when it's running around
or when it can speak, you know. So it's like,
I guess it's just this, it comes back to it
seems so basic, but like, don't be judging another parent's
journey or feeling.

Speaker 4 (54:24):
Yeah, and just on that. I think that's a really
good reminder when you're talking to someone who might be
experiencing post pund agression or just someone who's struggling, which
is going to be one hundred percent of mothers, right,
is that there's this common narrative. I remember feeling like
this of you know, someone saying, oh me too, you
know that happened to me. And while it was actually
really helped, like they're trying to be really helpful, I
immediately felt like, well, then maybe I shouldn't be struggling.

(54:46):
You know, they'd say like, oh, my mama baby struggled
as well, or I struggled feeding. I thought, oh, oh
it is yeah.

Speaker 1 (54:51):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (54:52):
Then I felt instantly invalidated because I was like, oh,
what am I getting upset about? And so it's coming
from a really beautiful place.

Speaker 1 (54:57):
So what I really.

Speaker 4 (54:58):
Recommend is if you are talking to someone who's struggling
is try not to offer those stories or anecdotes unless
it's asked for. Yeah, try and just seeh be that
space for them, and it is helpful sometimes I'm not
minimizing that. But wait until they ask, you know, how
did you go with this or did you experience this?
Because for the most part, what people want to hear,
what mothers want to hear is like that really sucks
and I'm so sorry this is happening, Like, just tell

(55:20):
me about it like that. That is one of the
most powerful things you can do is just hold space
and sit. I always say, sit on the ledge with them.
They're sitting on the ledge, just sit down, sit down
next to.

Speaker 3 (55:29):
Them, slowly back away, let's hug over.

Speaker 2 (55:34):
Yeah, Kat, thanks so much for coming and being part
of the podcast. Like I said, it's a conversation that
we've been wanting to have for ages and we weren't
really sure how to do it. Whether we had someone
on the start that was like comes from the clinical side,
and then someone on the end you comes from the
personal experience side.

Speaker 3 (55:48):
We just thought of Laura. We waited because we're like,
Laura's going to keep having kids. Eventually she'll have depression
and then she can talk about which hasn't got Yeah,
thanks Kat, We really enjoyed that.

Speaker 4 (55:59):
Well, you'll say, welcome. I have this code of shame
dies when stories are told in safe places, so I
really appreciate you taking time to have a space that
is so safe to do so and be really funny
as well as said.

Speaker 3 (56:09):
And we will put Cat mentioned some links that are
some free support places that you can go to and
put all of those in our show notes and any
other links to things that we think could help you.
Thank you, thank you.