September 10, 2024 • 49 mins
Jeff Guenther AKA TherapyJeff is here to help you take control of your dating life, by tuning into who you are, what you want, and how you can get there. Therapy Jeff has over 3.8 million followers on socials. He is a licensed therapist with twenty years’ experience in private practice. Today we are going to unpack a bit of the psychology behind why we are the way that we are in relationships and how that impacts different aspects of our dating lives!
Today we chat about:
- Growing up with a mum who is also a therapist. Is that good or bad?
- Can we blame our parents for who we are attracted to?
- Why is dating so hard right now?
- If you’re on dating apps, you could be dating an AI avatar of the person
- When we ARE the problem and how to take control of that
- Patterns: are you after chaos and drama or a healthy stable relationship? No, but really what are you actually searching for?
- How much can you change someone to help them meet your needs?
- How to spot the difference between love bombing and the honeymoon phase
- Can you survive cheating? What determines whether you can or can’t
Find more from Jeff’s website
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Life on Cut acknowledges the traditional custodians of country whose
lands were never seated. We pay our respects to their
elders past and present.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Always was, always will be Aboriginal Land. This episode was
recorded on Cameragle Land. Hi guys, and welcome back to
another episode of Life on Cut. I'm Laura, I'm Brittany,
and if you were one of our single listeners and
(00:29):
you were tired of the dating world, well this is
going to be the episode for you.
Speaker 3 (00:33):
I'm not alone.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Yeah, you were certainly not alone. We've spoken about it
for years. Britt was flying that flag for so long. Yeah,
but then she left you all for dead.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
So almost felt guilty when I got into relationship because
I was like, I owe it to the people to
be like the single person attracted to red flags.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
I was like, we've got nothing left. We can't both
be in relationships on this podcast. But we are talking
about big dating energy on this episode, and we're joined
by Jeff Gunther aka Therapy Jeff.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
Now.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
He is here to help you take control of your
dating life by tuning into who you are, what you want,
and how you can get there. I think the first
thing is probably figuring out what you actually want, not the.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
People that you probably end up dating Therapy.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Jeff has over three point eight million followers on social media.
He's a licensed therapist with twenty years experience in private practice,
and he also has a book out that is called
Big Dating Energy. Today, we're going to be unpacking a
little bit about the psychology behind why we are the
way that we are in relationships, and how it impacts
different parts of our lives.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
Jeff, Welcome to the pod.
Speaker 4 (01:33):
Thank you for having me. I'm so excited for this.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
I thank you for joining.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
Yeah, very excited to be talking about Big Dating Energy.
But before we delve into that world that all of
our listeners are on the edge of their seat fall,
we want to hear your embarrassing story. You're accidentally unfiltered.
Speaker 4 (01:47):
Okay, So my accidentally unfiltered story is I got my
graduate degree in marriage and family therapy, and I moved
from California to Oregon, and right when I got to
Oregon to Portland, Oregon, I decided to open up my
practice and I was just like, fuck it, here we go.
I'm just gonna be a therapist and see how it goes.
I'm going to dive right in and uh. In my life,
(02:10):
like leading up to that point, it wasn't uncommon for
me to like experience anxiety. And the way that anxiety
typically manifested when I was younger is I would like
get a little sweaty, or my heart would start to
beat real fast, or in really severe situations, my vision
could get a little blurry and which was not great.
(02:32):
But these were all like ways that I learned how
to tolerate and get through. So even though I suffered
from anxiety, I had like lots of tools in order
to get through it. And when I started my private
practice and I was twenty four years old, started to
see my first few clients, and I started to experience
a lot of anxiety while I was being a therapist.
Speaker 3 (02:53):
You're like, you're freaking out. I'm freaking out. We're all
freaking out right now.
Speaker 4 (02:56):
Yeah, we're all freaking out. But like I'm good enough
to hide it. It is what I thought. The problem
was that the anxiety was manifesting in a way that
it had never manifested before. So I started feeling anxious
in these sessions, and all of a sudden, it started
to feel like I needed to go pee, and I
(03:16):
was just like, oh, this is weird because I think
I don't need a pee and it feels like I
really need to pee, And then after the session would
be over, i'd go to the bathroom and do a
pee and like barely any pee came out. So I
was like, this is kind of weird. And as I
continued to see clients over and over and over the
p that I felt like I needed to pee. But
then it started to feel like am I peeing my pants?
(03:38):
I feel like I might be actually like there's pe
coming out, and so during the sessions I'd have to
kind of like sneakily like look down at my pants
to be like, am I just drenched in P and
the client isn't telling me? But the thing is is
that like I wasn't peeing, there was no pe coming out,
and I had a supervisor because you have to have
like a supervisor when you're a baby therapist first doing it,
(04:01):
and I was too embarrassed to tell them that I
had these like this pee pants sort of like neurosis.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
Jeff is seriously feels like the point in time where
it's like the therapist needs a therapist.
Speaker 5 (04:15):
I've never had that, but I found this really interesting.
Speaker 1 (04:18):
So I was having a discussion about paying recently with
my boyfriend, sorry fiance, my bath my fiance.
Speaker 3 (04:24):
I just got engaged. I'm joking. I'm just being a waker,
But I didn't.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
Know that men, if they need to eat, just can
squeeze the end of their penis and the.
Speaker 3 (04:36):
We goes back in. Did you know that, Laura. No,
But also he's not going to do that. Well, he's
got clients. No, sorry it was it was a segue,
but like I just couldn't.
Speaker 4 (04:44):
Well that's the thing is that like I I could
do that, but I can't do that in front of
my clients. That'd be like absurd and upsetting, right and
like harassment, Yeah, that would be like I would not
they take my license away. So I was like, you
know what, the only way for me to guarantee that
it's gonna be okay if I actually pee myself is
(05:07):
I either have to wear a diaper or or I
have to somehow like shimmy a condom on. So that
like if I if I treat, these are my two options.
This is like, this is like if I'm going to
continue being a therapist, I either have to put on
a condom or wear a diaper. What would you decide
(05:28):
to do?
Speaker 2 (05:28):
I would wait, i.
Speaker 3 (05:32):
Would quit, I'd be conto move into a last question.
All my life choices up into this boat.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
But the condom wouldn't it if you had a condom on,
wouldn't the amount of urine that you had overflow?
Speaker 3 (05:42):
Maybe it was just a couple of drops.
Speaker 4 (05:44):
Well, I was I was thinking about like really rolling
out that condom real far. Like condoms actually are like
pretty long if you like really unroll it. So I
was like, maybe I'll just like unroll it real long
and I fill it up like a water balloon sort
of situation. I was worried that the paper would crinkle
and you would hear that like this twenty four year
old therapist is wearing a like So I actually did,
(06:07):
Bret what you would have done, and I stopped being
a therapist no way. I was like, I'm just gonna
I'm gonna stop being a therapist. And I applied to
work at the Apple store in the mall, and I
was like, fuck it, I'm gonna be I'm gonna sell
Apple computers. I'm not gonna be a therapist anymore. I
went to the mall to go on my interview, and
I was like, I can't work at a mall, and
(06:27):
so then instead I just like worked at like a
community mental health agency. Eventually, two years later I became
a private practice therapist and the phantom pe anxiety attacks
never came back.
Speaker 3 (06:39):
That is crazy.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
I was making a joke about not continuing on with
your degree, but imagine like, and we'll get into it,
but I know your mom's a therapist yet, but imagine
like your mom being so proud of you, like you've
you've just graduated, you doing therapy. You're like, sorry, mom,
I'm gonna pisce myself every session I'm quitting.
Speaker 4 (06:55):
Yeah, the way, if that would have happened, if that
would have continued, I'd be like, I'm not supposed to
be a therapist, forget it. But luckily it never came back.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
It must be so interesting being like an intergenerational therapist,
growing up with parents who a therapist and then getting
into that industry yourself. I mean I almost question like that,
what is that like, growing up as a kid with
parents who are so literate in this world? Is it
something I don't know, what was your experience of it?
I wonder if it's like a positive thing. Or also
(07:27):
you can be in a situation where like parents are
almost too in tune, like they know too much.
Speaker 4 (07:32):
The problem is that, like anybody can become a therapist,
So you would imagine that maybe like a therapist who's
also a parent would be like really emotionally in tune
with their kid. She was not, and she has not
been very so, like she's like probably a good therapist
for the clients that she sees, but when she was
(07:53):
a parent, she was not in tune with me. And
she also struggled with like her own mental health issues
and addiction issues, so she was like pretty checked out,
the sad sort of not trying to bring everything down
here and we can like laugh about it.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
Yeah, I think people would have a perspective or a
thought around it. If you are the child of a therapist,
that you're supposed to have it all worked out.
Speaker 4 (08:18):
Yeah, and that makes total sense. And uh, yeah, she
didn't have it all worked out. I didn't have it
all worked out. I think. You know, for the longest time,
my plan was not to become a therapist. I was
going to be like a major league baseball player, or
I was going to be an animator or I was
going to be in like make video games or graphic design,
(08:38):
but I like switched to becoming a therapist. I think
is because I wanted to figure out how to connect
with my mom because I never felt really connected with her.
So I was like, well, if I'm a therapist, then
maybe we can like have the same language talk about
similar stuff. That didn't really work, but she did. She
did influence me in a round about way to become
(09:01):
a therapist, So I'm happy with the profession I have.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
Well, so you wrote this book Big Dating Energy, and
I had a very very deep dive into your socials
and you know, the theme is dating relationships sex. Did
you go down that route because that was not a pun?
Did you go down that route because that is the
main problem that people were coming to you with, Like
you saw the theme here, so you're like, let's just
(09:26):
hone in on that.
Speaker 4 (09:27):
I did. Yeah. When I originally became a therapist twenty
years ago, my goal, what I wanted to do is
just work with children and families, and I did that
for a while. I worked with kids mostly like eleven
to thirteen year old, like when you know, when they're
just fucking turds, but like the best little thirds ever,
(09:48):
like they're still like they're starting to become angsty. And
I did family therapy and top parenting classes, and I
thought that I was going to do like family parenting
stuff for my whole career. But when I opened my
private practice, I just got kept on getting like people
on their twenties that were having problems and issues in
their dating life. And so the more clients I got,
(10:10):
the more I just focused on it and specialized in it,
and I just became a therapist only that primarily sees
people that are dating and in relationships or new relationships,
and because of that, I started specializing in it. And
then a few years ago when I started posting online,
I was like, well, I'll just talk about what I
typically talk about, and it worked out.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
It's so hard because, like you know, I'm in my
late thirties now, but I know for myself my own
personal experience, the only time that I have been through
therapy was in my twenties, and it was when I
was dating and I was so confused by the relationship
that I was in. It was such an absolute fucking
cess pit of a relationship, and I kind of needed
help figuring my way out of it, but also then
(10:50):
I had to do the repair work around Okay, well
what's wrong with me? Like why do I keep attracting
this into my life? I mean that was a real
eye open up. But also I think we can often
talk about this idea that the reason why we're in
therapy is because a lot of the people around us
probably should be the ones in therapy, but we're.
Speaker 3 (11:07):
Doing the work.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
Do you think, like, how much do you think it
is what is done to us verse what we are accepting,
or what we're bringing into our own lives, and am
I how much we need to yeah, take responsibility for it?
Speaker 4 (11:19):
I think it's well. I think that like who we are,
how we show up in relationships is highly influenced by
our family and by our friends, and by the culture,
and by all the movies and media and content that
we absorb. I mean, when we're little, the only intimate
relationship that really matters to us, when we're really really
(11:41):
little is the relationship that we have with our parents.
That is our first intimate relationship. That's how we learn
about what love is and what to expect from love,
and how we need to behave in order to receive love.
It might be that we're competing with our siblings who
are also trying to get love, and there ways and
usually you know, I was I'm the younger sibling. I
(12:03):
have an older sister, and my sister is very like,
big energy, theatrical, likes to be in the spotlight, very loud,
fun puts on a bunch of fucking skits when we're kids,
you know, like knows how to get the attention whenever
she wants. And so I had to figure out how
do I get the attention because I can't compete with her.
So instead I'm going to try to be, you know,
(12:26):
the good kid that does everything right, really quiet, reserve,
gets good grades, doesn't bother anybody, right. And that wasn't
a conscious decision. That was me just being really little,
trying to find my own lane. And then as we
grow up a lot of times we start to emulate
how we first decided to try to get love or
be loved or And usually when we're little and we're
(12:47):
not getting the love that we want or that we deserve,
we blame ourselves and we're like, oh, it's because I'm
not funny enough, or smart enough or talented enough or
I don't you know. So there's we grow up and
we start to think that we're the problem, and then
we typically attract other partners that reinforce the same issues
that we fear. So I think that we can squarely
(13:09):
blame our parents, our family, the culture, the media. We
absorb all the messages. The problem is is that like
you're never going to change unless you take responsibility for it.
So yes, fuck your parents, and also what are you
going to do about it? Like, yeah, you can just
sort of like never heal and blame everybody. And that's
(13:30):
cute when you're a teenager or in your early twenties,
but it's not attractive when you get into your late
twenties or thirties or forties or older, you know what
I mean. So yeah, I think whether it's through therapy
or through journaling or through a walk about, eventually you
have to get to a place where you have to
take control over you know, how you show up in
(13:52):
relationship and what you're going to do about it. But
I love blaming everybody else, but you can only do
that for a little while.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
Yeah, it gets old pretty quickly when you or never
the problem. But I remember how long it took me
to figure out that I was the problem. And I
don't I don't say that in a bad way, like
I was very problematic, but the problem for me never
getting into a relationship was because I was a commitment foe.
Speaker 3 (14:13):
But I didn't know that.
Speaker 5 (14:14):
So I was blaming everyone else.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
It's like he did this like finding these ridiculous red
flags and relationships and people were like, that's not a
red flag. And eventually I ended up going to therapy
off the back of a breakup.
Speaker 5 (14:25):
And that was like the only times I have ever been.
Speaker 1 (14:28):
To therapy is off the back of a breakup, Which
is interesting because we know it's a muscle that you
should be using all.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
The time in the highs and the low Also, you
britg just saying that, it's so interesting to me because
I think anyone who has had that realization, I also
have had that realization that there's a pattern and that
I was the one responsible for that pattern. Anyone who
actually wakes up and sees that, it's like it's your
instant antidote for taking control. Once you know that you
(14:56):
do that same thing over and over and it's giving
you the same relationships. Like that is such it's like
a breath of fresh air. It's kind of hard to
stomach at first, but then you're like, oh, I'm.
Speaker 3 (15:05):
Doing this, I can control this. It's amazing.
Speaker 5 (15:09):
Taylor Swift said it perfect. I'm the problem to me.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
Yeah, but Jeff, you've been doing therapy for decades now,
and I don't I don't say that to make you feel.
Speaker 5 (15:18):
Old, but it's plural, like you're you're very experienced.
Speaker 1 (15:21):
What is the difference now in dating that you have
seen and the problems that people are bringing. Do you
think it's harder for people to date now in this
society than it was, say, ten, fifteen years ago?
Speaker 4 (15:32):
You know, I'm wondering what you two think about this,
like what your answer would be as well, because I
have an answer for it, and a lot of times
when people ask me that, they're like, nah, I don't
think that's right. So feel free to disagree with me,
because one answer that I don't typically say, but other
people seem to think that it's this is that, like,
you know what, dating has been hard in every single generation.
(15:56):
There hasn't been one generation where you're just like, you
know what, dating is pretty sweet right now? Having a
great time out there, it's super easy, which is probably true.
I don't know if I've ever heard of any generation
that felt like they had it like really easy. So
one way to look at it is dating has always
been hard, it's always tricky, it's always weird. But I
do actually think it's harder these days. And one of
(16:21):
the reasons is because of all the dating apps. One
of the primary ways we meet people is through these
dating apps. Most of these dating apps are owned by
the same big company called Match Group. They own Match
and Tinder and plenty of Fish and Hinge. They don't
own Bumble Bumbles, like the only app that they don't
(16:42):
own this big But they're all just there to make
money off of your desperate heart or your horny genitals.
And there's like an algorithm, an algorithm and all these
fucking dating apps that make it so that like they
don't want you to actually find love, so that one
of the primary way we try to find love through
dating apps is actively working against us because if we
(17:05):
do delete the app, which is part of their bullshit marketing,
they want us to believe that they want us to
delete the app. But if we delete the app, then
they don't make any money and their investors get really mad,
and all the tech bros you know, can't buy their
fancy cars or cool houses or you know. So like,
I think that there's this extra thing that's going on
(17:26):
that's making it harder. Also, the pandemic and lockdown made
everybody super fucking weird. I don't understand we haven't rebounded
from it, like when it comes to like relationships and dating.
So I think that there's this technology factor that does
make it harder. What are you two things?
Speaker 2 (17:43):
I also wonder if because of this technology factor, I'm
not saying that this is a bad thing or a
good thing. I feel kind of well, I mean, I
don't know how I feel about it, but I think
it has created a culture where we are defiant against
this idea of settling. But sometimes we write people before
we've even given them the opportunity as to whether they
would be someone that would be quote unquote settling, because
(18:06):
we've created this idea around the perfect person, and so
we're swiping.
Speaker 3 (18:10):
It seems never ending.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
There seems like there's so many options, and so we
treat people quite disposably, and it limits our ability to
have a connection, which would then let us make a
decision as to whether, Okay, if iways to have a
relationship with this person, would that be settling for me?
But we kind of don't even get to that point
sometimes because it's so transactional.
Speaker 1 (18:30):
Well, I think because dating fatigue is standard in every generation,
but I think it's exacerbated by the fact that we
have dating apps now because you do become fatigued faster.
If you were dating in the wild and you met somebody,
you're going to just focus on that one person. You're
not going to be one hundred other people in the
back of your head. You're not going to like roll
over in bed and swipe because it didn't exist. But
(18:51):
now you are telling your story to someone and meeting
someone ten times a day, so the fatigue I think
comes quicker, which in turn results in it being are
harder and more exhausting to want to date anymore. And like,
dating fatigue is one of the most common things I
hear from my friends and that I experienced.
Speaker 5 (19:07):
It's like, I can't be fucking bothered.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
I was like, I'm deleting the apps, not because I
found someone, but because, like I'm cooked, I don't want
to look for someone else, and I want to tell
someone who I am, how old I am, what I do,
Like I want to make a PowerPoint presentation that I
can give someone, say watch it. This is like dating
me for five weeks and then if you're interested, come.
Speaker 5 (19:25):
Back and we'll go from there.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
But so, I think dating fatigue is probably one of
the biggest things we come up against.
Speaker 5 (19:29):
Now.
Speaker 4 (19:30):
Oh yeah, and there's well, first, Laura, yes, like there's
this endless scroll of possibilities. You can always go back
on the dating apps, and the dating apps give you
the same dopamine rush that you get from social media
apps or any other app that pulls you back in.
And yeah, but there's like that, the dating fatigue is
(19:51):
a real problem. There's some real weird solutions to dating
fatigue that are getting thrown out there where like kind
of what you're saying, where they're like, there's now they're
creating AI to figure out like who you really are,
and then you create an AI avatar of who you
are on a date, and your AI avatar dates somebody
(20:12):
else's AI avatar to see if you'll get along, and
then if the AI avatars enjoy each other, then you
can actually meet in real life. There's all these so
many weird fucking startups that contact me and they tell
me these dumb fuck ideas. They're like, we want you
to be the face of this, or we want a
(20:34):
sponsored content. I'm just like, you're ridiculous.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
It's almost like, how can we have less human connection?
Like how can we gamify the world even more? Like
it does feel and exactly as you mentioned, like dating
apps gamify something, but when you hardwire emotion and then
also addiction together, it's such a recipe for being disappointed
and also a recipe for disaster when it comes to
your past.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
Well, imagine sending you ai avatar on the date for
you off you go.
Speaker 5 (21:02):
Let me know how it goes, Like do they have cybersex?
Speaker 3 (21:05):
Huck?
Speaker 5 (21:09):
Like, what do they report back?
Speaker 3 (21:10):
Went?
Speaker 5 (21:11):
Well, orgasm twice?
Speaker 3 (21:12):
You get in there? Get it? Is it dirty work?
Speaker 1 (21:19):
Jof?
Speaker 2 (21:19):
I know we touched on it a tiny bit before,
but I would love to get your perspective on it.
You know, we've talked about this idea of like realizing
that we have control and you know, seeing when you're
the problem when it comes to choosing the people that
you're dating.
Speaker 3 (21:32):
But the idea of patterns do we.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
All like, does everyone kind of follow a pattern when
it comes to dating, or a blueprint when it comes
to how we choose our relationships and people that we
are attracted to.
Speaker 4 (21:43):
Uh yeah, I think so, Yes, we do. Although you know,
there's some folks out there that have a pattern and
then they try to like disrupt the pattern and change.
It might not be true for every single person out there,
and some people maybe are just like totally fucking chaotic,
and that's that's a pattern. Yeah, they're chaos. But I
do think that there is a pattern. And like you
(22:04):
were saying earlier, once you recognize what the pattern is,
it's usually like who do you feel most comfortable with?
Who makes you feel more familiar? Are you experiencing the
same types of issues over and over again. It's likely
linked to your parents, your family and the messages that
you picked up along the way. And once you recognize
(22:26):
it and shine a light on it, it doesn't have
as much power over you than it did before, and
now you it's like liberating. You have control over it.
It's not controlling you. You don't have to go to
therapy to figure out what the pattern is. Your friends
probably know what the pattern is. You just ask them
to be honest with.
Speaker 5 (22:44):
You, right, Laura was telling you thease. She's like, it's
your brittany.
Speaker 2 (22:49):
Your friends is such a mirror because you go to
them with everything, and you know, if you have great friends,
they might be honest with you. But other friends are
just a sounding board and they probably walk away and
be like, fuck, Sarah's hot mess, like she's doing the
same thing again, but maybe don't give you the positive
feedback that you or that not even positive, but the
right feedback that you are quiet to make to make
(23:11):
some changes.
Speaker 4 (23:12):
It's not uncommon for me to ask my clients or
I like, okay, client, we're gonna script an email for
you that you're going to send to your five closest
friends that's going to say something like, Hey, you know me,
I'm experiencing the same bullshit and my relationships over and over.
I'm not exactly sure why that is. I'm feeling overwhelmed
by it. Can you give me honest feedback about why
(23:35):
you think it is that I keep on attracting these
folks and I won't get mad at you. This is
like a free non judgmental zone, and I just like
want to use this. I can learn about myself more
and talk about this in therapy. And when you give
your friends the opportunity to be honest with you and
ask them also to be compassionate while they're doing it,
then there is so much you can learn there, and
(23:57):
there's a lot of change that can happen pretty quickly.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
You have something that I want to get your opinion
on it, and I never know the right answer, and
I battle with it, and I know everyone does. It's
this idea of like playing a game when you're dating.
We all say let's not play games, Like if you
get a message right back. You know, we all have
been in a place where we're like, oh, I've got
the message, I'll wait two hours and right back, I'll
wait four hours. I hate playing games, but I understand
(24:22):
there's actually a psychology behind it, Like it does make
you want something more or make them want something more
if it's not as easily given to you. What is
your overall advice in dating around that manipulation and game playing?
Speaker 4 (24:37):
I mean, if you want to play the game, then
you better be able to keep it up for the
whole fucking relationship. Like, if that's what the relationship is
going to be based on, is the game playing and
the slight manipulation or making it so that they want
you because you're not available, Like I hope you have
a lot of energy to continue doing that, and also
(24:58):
think about the type of person and that you're attracting
that's only going to maybe like you if you're being
a little gaming. Is that the kind of person that
you want to be with. If that is, and you
want to play the game and it's really fun, and
then go for it. There are a lot of times
I ask clients the question, do you want chaos and
unpredictability because that feels exciting and fun, or do you
(25:20):
want balance and harmony because it seems like you're saying
you want balance and harmony, but you keep on going
and creating chaos and excitement and drama, you know. And
I feel like the game playing leans into the chaotic manipulation,
not real authentic connection. But the thing is is that
(25:41):
it can work. But that's not what a healthy relationship.
That's not how a healthy relationship is created. That's not
how you create a healthy, sturdy, stable, secure foundation. And
there's a lot of content creators out there on TikTok
or Instagram, whatever you are talking about the game playing,
and it works if you're a player, but it's not
(26:02):
going to work long term. Long term probably.
Speaker 2 (26:05):
It sounds like such an unhealthy way to start a relationship,
especially when we're talking about Okay, well, if you're at
a point where you're done with the bullshit and you
actually want a great relationship, like and you want to
do something that's different to the way that you've been
doing it thus far, which I hope if you're listening
to this episode, that's kind of what it is that
you're trying to get out of it. So I guess,
like what would be those things? What is ground zero from? Like, Okay,
(26:27):
we're here. Dating hasn't been working for you so far,
Let's try something a bit different.
Speaker 4 (26:32):
I'm the guy that always says just sort of like
show up authentically, which what the fuck does that mean?
Speaker 1 (26:37):
Really?
Speaker 4 (26:37):
And I think it's it's something like I just hate
that word authenticity, even though it's on the cover of
my book. I'm sick of it. But it's more of
like show up as your flawed, imperfect self, you know,
in like in a way where you're not judging yourself,
you're not trying to hide yourself too much. That being said,
(27:01):
we're not here to trauma dump on the first date
where you're telling your date every single thing. You're really
just showing up for the first date or two or
three where you're just checking out vibes. Is their banter,
is there some attraction? Are you having a good time?
Do they ask good questions? Do I want to see
them again? Right? So, once you get past the first
few dates, then you can start to be a little
(27:23):
bit more investigative if you want, and start really showing
up and asking for a little bit about like what
your needs are, what your desires are, what you're looking for,
what your future plans are, if you two can kind
of connect on what a relationship style is that you're
looking for. But I also am the type of guy
that's just like, if you're not getting your needs met
(27:43):
or you're feeling a little let down and it's date
number five, go ahead and just ask for those needs
to be met. Just put them out there, see if
they can actually meet those needs. Don't demand it, don't
be weird about it, don't try to shame them or
attack them, but be like, hey, I'm not here from
you a lot, and that makes me feel like you're
not really into me. Can you text more? Can you
(28:05):
do that? And then see how they respond and if
they respond or like, of course I can, If they
respond or like I don't know, then that's like important
data and information you're gathering to figure out if they're
a good match for you. So basically, show up, authentically,
be yourself, ask for your needs to be met. If
it seems like they can make reasonable change. You're not
going to ask them to change their personality. That's just
(28:28):
kind of fucked up and they can't do that. So
if they can make a reasonable change in order to
meet some of those needs, great. And then usually if
there's like a honeymoon period right where therapists call honeymoon
periods mutual positive projection periods because you're just like projecting
all the positivity on each other and looking at all
the good things. And sure you have roast tinted glasses on,
(28:51):
which means that all the red flags are just flags.
But like still you're supposed to really lean into the
honeymoon period because it creates a bunch of trust, that
creates that really strong foundation so that when you're out
of the honeymoon period and really get to see who
you are, then you can lean on something that you've
(29:12):
built for the past six months or something. So typically
when we get out of the honeymoon period, that's when
we get all the good information of are we a
good match?
Speaker 2 (29:20):
And I guess this is a conversation that might happen
quite early on for some people. So you know, big
deal breakers like do you want kids? Like how do
you want the mechanics of this relationship to work? How
important do you think it is that if somebody what
they want in their life doesn't align in what they're
saying to you versus how you feel about the relationship,
(29:42):
how important is it to kind of I guess maybe
step back or put the brakes on, because I think
one of the big things is is we get questions
around people who are like they've forged headfirst into relationships,
they're deeply in love, but their lives just don't align
or something has gone and it's like, how did you
get to two years of dating and no know that
you guys didn't he didn't want to have keyts or
whatever it was. How important do you think it is
(30:04):
to kind of lead with your head over your heart
in those situations?
Speaker 4 (30:07):
I think it's super important. I'm into making lists, but
mostly lists that have deal breakers on them, not lists
of like one hundred different things that you're fantasizing about
in a relationship. But do you want kids, what is
your relationship style, where do you want to live? What's
the most important thing to you in a relationship, and
write that down and stick to it. The problem is
(30:30):
is that we make that list of deal breakers and
non negotiables, and most often, once somebody shows us their
red flag or their deal breaker, we're like, nah, fuck it.
Speaker 3 (30:40):
We make an allow us.
Speaker 4 (30:40):
We also allow us. Yeah, And it's so interesting. You
learn so much about yourself when you decide to throw
that list away, like are you feeling desperate? Are you
feeling like your needs don't matter? Are you abandoning yourself?
And just like I'm just going to be here for them,
Like what the fuck is going on here? Because you're
(31:01):
gonna regret it. And it's also the people that typically
are like I love our big differences, like I'm a
night owl and and he's an early bird, and I'm
an extrovert and they're an introvert. And they list all
these opposites and they're like, because it balances us out.
I'm like, no, motherfucker, you're going to be fighting about
that shit in six months to a year. I guarantee it.
(31:23):
You're going to find yourself in my office and you're
going to be so far apart, like I'm super liberal
and they're really conservative. But it's like, oh no, there's
no way to compromise on some of these things, right, Yeah,
so it's really important to use your head.
Speaker 1 (31:37):
Yes, So all of a sudden, you're like, well, monogamy
and loyalty is not the most important thing, so you
scrap that off the list. You like, what we'll deal
with it? What's your thought around I mean differentiating the
honeymoon phase and that chemistry and bombardment and love bombing
and on that is love bombing always such a negative
thing because when we use it, it's negative, like, oh,
(31:59):
he's love bombing you instead of you know, oh my god,
it's a love bomb like you just shower. Yeah, Like,
can you differentiate between it being positive and negative? And
then the difference between love bombing and honeymoon.
Speaker 4 (32:11):
Yeah, that's a great question. I think that when you're
receiving love bombs and it's a bad thing, usually you're
getting love bombed, and it's going to be used for manipulation.
It's going to be used to like control you. It's
going to be used so that you get addicted to them.
It's going to be used so that you're just like,
oh my god, this is the only person for me,
(32:32):
and oh my god, they like check all of my boxes.
They are perfect, and they're showering me with all the
love and care and sexiness that that I deserve. And
so if it starts to make you feel like they
are the only one for me and nothing else matters,
and now I'm starting to give up important parts of
my life to spend even more time, like I'm not
(32:54):
spending time with my friends, or I'm not going to school,
or I'm not doing work very well or whatever. If
you start to get like you crave their love bombs
that they give you sporadically, because they're also training you
like they train a good dog, where they're only going
to show up randomly, or they're not going to give
you like a schedule or you can't count on them.
(33:14):
But when they do show up, oh my god, the
best sex of your life. Right. So that's when love
bombs are not great. But there's kind of like a
lower version of love bombing, which is just like, I
really like you, and there's so many green flags here
because we have so many interests that are in common.
Our values really sync up. We want the same things
(33:35):
out of life. We have really good banter. Oh, I'm
so excited for us. Right, we're noticing the things that
you're complimenting each other on that are good matches instead
of I'm love bombing you and nobody will ever love
you the way that I'm loving you.
Speaker 1 (33:48):
You know what I mean?
Speaker 3 (33:49):
How do you see the difference?
Speaker 2 (33:51):
Though? I think that's the big thing, because you know what,
and I guess I talk about from my own personal experience.
My relationship with my now husband worked great. He's amazing.
But I would have said we would have we because
we were always in contact. We will like text each
other every second of the day. It was a very
different situation. But had it not ended amazingly, someone would
(34:12):
look back on that and go, well, that was love bombing, Like,
how do you see the red flags amongst the green flags?
Speaker 4 (34:18):
Usually, like a red flag love bomb is not consistent,
so it'll only come every now and then. If you're
both telling each other how much you like each other
consistently regularly you're both like love bombing each other with
the same amount of energy, then that's great. We love
to see it. And yeah, but if it's start, if
(34:39):
you start to feel like you're addicted to it, and
if you don't get the love bomb, then you have
a bad day or you're really sad, then that's not
a great sign. This is also like if you ask
your friends honestly, if they think that you're getting love bombed.
Usually if you ask them like, do you think I'm changing?
Do you think I'm not actually the person who I
really am around them? Do you think I'm not showing
(35:01):
up as my authentic self when I'm with them? If
your friends are like, yes, I'm concerned for you, then
that's something that takes seriously.
Speaker 1 (35:09):
You've made me just realize that I started my relationship
like all wrong. First of all, it was one hundred
percent love bombing, like.
Speaker 2 (35:15):
We were mutual, and it was and it was consistent.
Speaker 3 (35:18):
The difference, Yeah, it.
Speaker 1 (35:19):
Was consistent presence, texting every day, calling each other all day,
like everything that you would want. But then also I
think we got together because I meant it really hard
for him, was like I don't really want that at
a long distance, I'm not into it. So I feel
like I did everything that we talked about to hear
that you shouldn't do.
Speaker 3 (35:35):
I think I did that.
Speaker 4 (35:37):
There's always an exception to the rule. Nobody.
Speaker 2 (35:42):
I think that that's the problem, is right, is that
so many of us think we're going to be the exceptional.
We think that that relationship because we've created this situation
in our head where we've gotten so attached to the
potential that we see in a relationship rather than what
that person's actually giving us. And then if you were
to actually write it down on paper what that person's
give giving you verse what the relationship could be if
(36:03):
just this one thing changed or just that one thing changed,
and then they're actually completely wells apart, whereas like for
you Britain, that wasn't the case. Like you guys consistently
have shown up in your relationship. Yeah, the obsession was equal,
it was equal.
Speaker 3 (36:17):
Yeah, I mean it matters.
Speaker 2 (36:18):
I think that that in conversation, specifically around love bombing,
is so interesting because when you're in it, it's so
hard to see the trees through the forest. It's so
hard to know that that's something that's toxic until you're
too far gone and their behavior changes so much, and
by then you're just scrambling to try and get any
kind of scraps of their attention.
Speaker 3 (36:38):
But putting the brakes on that is really really challenging.
Speaker 4 (36:42):
It is. And there's also like love bombing can happen,
and it can be okay as long as you're not
using it to have power over that person or make
them crazy or crave you or something. There's kind of like,
if you really like each other and you're really excited
about each other and you're both love bombing each other,
(37:04):
that's fine. That's like there's a lot of honeymoon stuff.
So I'm okay with it. As long as you're not
an evil person, Yeah, then you're gonna be okay. Most likely.
Speaker 2 (37:12):
Do you think like for people who have experienced and
we've done a lot of conversations around like dating narcissists,
and I feel like that's a time that gets branded
around a lot. But do you think that there are
people who literally wake up in the morning with the
conscious intent of manipulating that person or do you think
it is just a byproduct of their own shitty behavior?
(37:32):
Because we always kind of talk about it in this
way that it's like this very methodical thing, but I'm like,
surely these it's just like one fucked up person dating
another fucked up person, and then the chaos of their
relationship is kind of what unfolds.
Speaker 4 (37:44):
I don't think that they wake up thinking like I'm
gonna do some fantastic manipulation today. I think that they're
I think that they're probably deeply insecure people and this
is how they're operating to try to get power and
contry and they don't know any better, and it's most
likely because of their trauma or that's just their their
(38:06):
DNA or their family or whatever it is, and they
never learned relationship skills and we can probably blame their
family or their parents or whatever.
Speaker 3 (38:16):
Fuck your parents, Yeah, fuck your parents.
Speaker 4 (38:19):
But they never took responsibility and changed it, and they
probably got a ton of feedback that they just ignored.
So no, it usually comes from like, if you're a narcissistic,
you're deeply insecure and you can't admit it.
Speaker 3 (38:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:33):
Wow, a question and topic we get all the time
that constantly proves very divisive here, So I'd love your
opinion on it. Cheating is cheating the end of the
world for a relationship or do you sometimes think that
it can be used as a tool to work through
and make the relationship better.
Speaker 4 (38:53):
Well, I will say that there's research to back this
up and my own personal experience working with clients, there's
over I think it's like over sixty six percent of people.
So two thirds of people that get cheated on or
there's infidelity in their relationship, they stay together and work
it out and they're okay in the end. So there's
(39:14):
that stat where like most people actually stay together. I
think that there's this belief that if you do get
cheated on, the relationship should be over. That's it, fuck it,
you're gone, And there's I know, it's a really big betrayal.
It's incredibly hurtful. Usually when there's infidelity and those that
couple comes into my office. I've seen those folks hundreds
(39:37):
of times, and a lot of times they want to
go back to what the relationship used to be before
the cheating, and I'm like, sorry, Beabe, but that is
not possible. That relationship is over, So how are we
going to create a new relationship and a new chapter
moving forward? So if you can if you can do that,
which it takes a lot of work, then it can
(40:00):
like the relationship can be just as strong or stronger
than ever and it's going to be okay. But a
lot of it is determined on the cheater, Like does
the cheater. There's so many times one of the first
questions I ask when that cheating couple comes into the
session is I'll ask the cheater, why'd you do it?
(40:20):
And I'm like hoping and praying that they can be like, oh,
this is why I did it, because then we don't
have to spend the next ten to thirty sessions going
through like if they say I don't know why I
did it, well, then fuck it's going to happen again.
Then maybe if you have no idea why this happened,
and you can't take accountability and understand how you got
from point A to point B and how you made
(40:42):
those decisions to do all those cheats, then we're not
going to get you might as well just not even
be here anymore. So if they know why they did it,
if they can take accountability, if they can understand the
harm and the damage and the betrayal and the fucked
up trust that is now creative because of those decisions,
then there's a possibility for healing. The other part is
(41:03):
that the person who got cheated on, and I want
to like disclaimer here, I am not doing victim blaming.
And even if there is a problem in the relationship,
that that should not constitute cheating. But the person that
got cheated on, is there anything that they did in
(41:24):
order to contribute to the problem that eventually led to
the infidelity. Again, you shouldn't have been cheated on, but
you are probably part of this system that helped to
create the situation where there is cheats. So as long
as we can be honest, take accountability, be empathetic, turn
a new page, then I've seen these relationships be stronger
(41:47):
than ever. But it takes a lot of emotional work.
It's also cheating is like one, like maybe only one
of the things in relationships where you have to be
one hundred percent perfect. There's all these other things that
we do in relationships where we're not one hundred percent perfect,
whether it's like losing our temper or washing the dishes
or not picking up the kid whatever. Like you're just like,
(42:08):
all right, fine, but if you do one little cheat,
fuck it we're done. This is over. And there was
a I was talking to Dan Savage was on my podcast.
You know Dan Savage, he's like a sex relationship all
star here in the Pacific Northwest, and he told his husband,
(42:30):
He's like, look, if we're going to have a kid,
then what I need is to have a guarantee that
if one of us cheats. If I cheat on you,
then that doesn't mean that we're automatically done, because I
don't want to fuck over that kid if I accidentally
cheat on you, but if you're like, accidentally, if I
(42:50):
somehow find myself inside of someone.
Speaker 2 (42:54):
Because you're saying that, I know that there'll be people
listening to that who would have interpreted it as a
get out of jol free Kiaud Like, well, okay, you've
said that, now I'm going to do it, But that's
not what this is.
Speaker 4 (43:05):
No, he's just like I'm He's like, I'm not going
to expect either one of us are going to be perfect,
and so I want to make sure that we stay
together forever for our kid that we're going to have,
which means that we have to like not have this
huge The relationship is over if we cheat on each
other and it's and it's mostly because the definition of
cheating is different for everybody and it evolves, and it's
(43:29):
usually the thing that I ask people to ask. Once
you define the relationship, you should ask what does cheating
look like to you? What does cheating count as? And
then you can like figure out if you're on the
same page or if you have to make a compromise.
Speaker 2 (43:43):
We're not saying be in relationships but you're being cheated
on continuously. We're not saying stay in relationships where you
know there's no trust. What we're saying is is when
two people show up in a relationship and if you
know there has been infidelity, but they are wanting to
be committed to that relationship and their actions are also aligned.
They're not just saying that they want to be committed
(44:03):
and then still going out with the boys on Friday
night and they don't fucking text you and you don't
know where they are. Two different things. But I understand
why people work through that. And now also as a parent,
my opinions of it have changed, and that doesn't invalidate
how fucking hard it is, though when it happens in
your relationship, I can't even comprehend.
Speaker 3 (44:20):
It's fucking really really challenging.
Speaker 1 (44:23):
No, But the reaction, I think is what is the
make or break right, Like the reaction to any situation,
but in a cheating or infidelity situation, it's if they're
going to gaslight you say it's your fault, be like,
what do you think was gonna happen?
Speaker 5 (44:34):
Like, you know, let's stay together.
Speaker 1 (44:35):
But if there's if there's no accountability, responsibility, ownership, then
the relationship's not right. You're probably not gonna work through
the cheating. But if they do come to you, Jeff
and say this is why I did it, this is
why I want never want to do it again, this
is why I want to work through it, then yeah,
then your relationship probably can be repaired. So I don't
want anyone to think that I am out here advocating
for cheating, Like fucking go fuck around and make it work.
Speaker 2 (44:57):
Go fuck around and see cheating and games Britton right.
Speaker 4 (45:01):
It is kind of a generational thing too. I think
that younger folks who haven't been in as many relationships
are just like, no, you cheat on me, I'm out,
which I get. But as you get older and you
start to like see that relationships get more complicated, or
there's you don't want to leave a relationship if they're
cheating because you've been together for fifteen years and you
have kids and a home and an intertwined life, then
(45:23):
you're gonna be like, well, okay, I think maybe we
can work through this, and it's understandable in some sort
of way. So there's also like the younger you are,
the more you're like, I'm not going to take this.
The older you are, the more you're like, can we
work through this?
Speaker 3 (45:36):
Absolutely?
Speaker 2 (45:37):
The only other thing I think is probably something that
and I can't remember who said it, but it was
such a good take on it. We have this opinion
that if there was cheating, there must never have been loved,
Like they can't possibly love you if they treat you
like that, And those two things aren't mutually exclusive, like
everything is so great that like it doesn't one doesn't
rule the other one out, which I think is such
(45:57):
an important thing to keep perspective on, especially if you
in that situation where you've been together for fifteen years,
you have children, that one incident doesn't mean that everything
else about your life was a lie. And that's kind
of what society tells us. And when it comes to
these situations, I.
Speaker 1 (46:11):
Agree, Jeff, what else can people get from big dating energy?
Speaker 5 (46:15):
I mean, I know we've.
Speaker 1 (46:16):
Covered a lot of it here, but who are the
people that are going to come for this book?
Speaker 4 (46:20):
Well, if you like my rant on blaming your parents,
there's a whole fucking chapter where I talk about how
it's your parents fault, and then there's another chapter after
that where I blame everybody else, Hollywood, reality shows, your teachers, whoever.
I So there's a lot of focus on who we
can blame, and then it starts to I start to
(46:42):
gaslight you into thinking that that's what the whole book
is going to be about, until I'm just like, actually,
need to take responsibility for your shit, and this is
how you can do it. And then I go into
like the all right, fine, you want to get out there,
here's the first things you can do. Do you want
to use those shitty dating apps, here's some tips. Do
you want to meet people in real life? Here's even
more tips. We start going through the first few dates,
(47:04):
the honeymoon period, after the honeymoon period, how to be
in long term relationships, all of those stages of the
relationship I get into, like, how you can do it
in a really healthy way where you're not abandoning yourself,
you're being really authentic, you're getting those needs met, but
you're healing and growing within those relationships. I think there's
a lot of people that are like, oh, I have
to be healed and reach a certain healthy place and
(47:26):
then I can start dating. But you do the healing
within the relationship most of the time, so it's me
trying to nudge you in order to do that. I
get into like how to have healthy fights and conflict.
I get into how to get through all the sexy
issues that you're having in relationship. And then one of
my favorite chapters is the breakup chapter, So how to
(47:48):
get through it if you get broken up? But how
to break up with somebody in a really ethical, on
a straightforward way, because there are so many bad breaker
uppers out there.
Speaker 2 (47:57):
It's so hot, though, isn't it, Like everyone knows kind
of how to deal with being broken up with because
it happens to you, So you just have to go
through it. So when you're the person who has to
do the breaking up, especially when the person you're dating
is a good person, like they've not done anything wrong,
they're kind, care about them. You don't want to see
them cry. That is I think the hardest. Well, it's
(48:18):
not as hard as being broken up with, but it's
it's it is so hard. And there are people, there
are people who stay in relationships for years and they
are unhappy. Yeah, because they can't do it. They can't
break up. I did it, I say, in a relationship
for over a year.
Speaker 3 (48:32):
And a half. I did it too. I think we
all do it, and it was so dead in the water.
But I couldn't break up with them. Yeah, it's so hard.
Speaker 5 (48:39):
If you want to break up with someone, get get
the book.
Speaker 4 (48:41):
Yeah, big dating Energy.
Speaker 5 (48:44):
Thanks for your time today, Jeff. We really appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (48:46):
We're going to put all the links in our show
notes for anyone that wants to go and find more
than Girl.
Speaker 4 (49:00):
The company appeared they by the
Life on Cut acknowledges the traditional custodians of country whose
lands were never seated. We pay our respects to their
elders past and present.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Always was, always will be Aboriginal Land. This episode was
recorded on Cameragle Land. Hi guys, and welcome back to
another episode of Life on Cut. I'm Laura, I'm Brittany,
and if you were one of our single listeners and
(00:29):
you were tired of the dating world, well this is
going to be the episode for you.
Speaker 3 (00:33):
I'm not alone.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Yeah, you were certainly not alone. We've spoken about it
for years. Britt was flying that flag for so long. Yeah,
but then she left you all for dead.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
So almost felt guilty when I got into relationship because
I was like, I owe it to the people to
be like the single person attracted to red flags.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
I was like, we've got nothing left. We can't both
be in relationships on this podcast. But we are talking
about big dating energy on this episode, and we're joined
by Jeff Gunther aka Therapy Jeff.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
Now.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
He is here to help you take control of your
dating life by tuning into who you are, what you want,
and how you can get there. I think the first
thing is probably figuring out what you actually want, not the.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
People that you probably end up dating Therapy.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Jeff has over three point eight million followers on social media.
He's a licensed therapist with twenty years experience in private practice,
and he also has a book out that is called
Big Dating Energy. Today, we're going to be unpacking a
little bit about the psychology behind why we are the
way that we are in relationships, and how it impacts
different parts of our lives.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
Jeff, Welcome to the pod.
Speaker 4 (01:33):
Thank you for having me. I'm so excited for this.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
I thank you for joining.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
Yeah, very excited to be talking about Big Dating Energy.
But before we delve into that world that all of
our listeners are on the edge of their seat fall,
we want to hear your embarrassing story. You're accidentally unfiltered.
Speaker 4 (01:47):
Okay, So my accidentally unfiltered story is I got my
graduate degree in marriage and family therapy, and I moved
from California to Oregon, and right when I got to
Oregon to Portland, Oregon, I decided to open up my
practice and I was just like, fuck it, here we go.
I'm just gonna be a therapist and see how it goes.
I'm going to dive right in and uh. In my life,
(02:10):
like leading up to that point, it wasn't uncommon for
me to like experience anxiety. And the way that anxiety
typically manifested when I was younger is I would like
get a little sweaty, or my heart would start to
beat real fast, or in really severe situations, my vision
could get a little blurry and which was not great.
(02:32):
But these were all like ways that I learned how
to tolerate and get through. So even though I suffered
from anxiety, I had like lots of tools in order
to get through it. And when I started my private
practice and I was twenty four years old, started to
see my first few clients, and I started to experience
a lot of anxiety while I was being a therapist.
Speaker 3 (02:53):
You're like, you're freaking out. I'm freaking out. We're all
freaking out right now.
Speaker 4 (02:56):
Yeah, we're all freaking out. But like I'm good enough
to hide it. It is what I thought. The problem
was that the anxiety was manifesting in a way that
it had never manifested before. So I started feeling anxious
in these sessions, and all of a sudden, it started
to feel like I needed to go pee, and I
(03:16):
was just like, oh, this is weird because I think
I don't need a pee and it feels like I
really need to pee, And then after the session would
be over, i'd go to the bathroom and do a
pee and like barely any pee came out. So I
was like, this is kind of weird. And as I
continued to see clients over and over and over the
p that I felt like I needed to pee. But
then it started to feel like am I peeing my pants?
(03:38):
I feel like I might be actually like there's pe
coming out, and so during the sessions I'd have to
kind of like sneakily like look down at my pants
to be like, am I just drenched in P and
the client isn't telling me? But the thing is is
that like I wasn't peeing, there was no pe coming out,
and I had a supervisor because you have to have
like a supervisor when you're a baby therapist first doing it,
(04:01):
and I was too embarrassed to tell them that I
had these like this pee pants sort of like neurosis.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
Jeff is seriously feels like the point in time where
it's like the therapist needs a therapist.
Speaker 5 (04:15):
I've never had that, but I found this really interesting.
Speaker 1 (04:18):
So I was having a discussion about paying recently with
my boyfriend, sorry fiance, my bath my fiance.
Speaker 3 (04:24):
I just got engaged. I'm joking. I'm just being a waker,
But I didn't.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
Know that men, if they need to eat, just can
squeeze the end of their penis and the.
Speaker 3 (04:36):
We goes back in. Did you know that, Laura. No,
But also he's not going to do that. Well, he's
got clients. No, sorry it was it was a segue,
but like I just couldn't.
Speaker 4 (04:44):
Well that's the thing is that like I I could
do that, but I can't do that in front of
my clients. That'd be like absurd and upsetting, right and
like harassment, Yeah, that would be like I would not
they take my license away. So I was like, you
know what, the only way for me to guarantee that
it's gonna be okay if I actually pee myself is
(05:07):
I either have to wear a diaper or or I
have to somehow like shimmy a condom on. So that
like if I if I treat, these are my two options.
This is like, this is like if I'm going to
continue being a therapist, I either have to put on
a condom or wear a diaper. What would you decide
(05:28):
to do?
Speaker 2 (05:28):
I would wait, i.
Speaker 3 (05:32):
Would quit, I'd be conto move into a last question.
All my life choices up into this boat.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
But the condom wouldn't it if you had a condom on,
wouldn't the amount of urine that you had overflow?
Speaker 3 (05:42):
Maybe it was just a couple of drops.
Speaker 4 (05:44):
Well, I was I was thinking about like really rolling
out that condom real far. Like condoms actually are like
pretty long if you like really unroll it. So I
was like, maybe I'll just like unroll it real long
and I fill it up like a water balloon sort
of situation. I was worried that the paper would crinkle
and you would hear that like this twenty four year
old therapist is wearing a like So I actually did,
(06:07):
Bret what you would have done, and I stopped being
a therapist no way. I was like, I'm just gonna
I'm gonna stop being a therapist. And I applied to
work at the Apple store in the mall, and I
was like, fuck it, I'm gonna be I'm gonna sell
Apple computers. I'm not gonna be a therapist anymore. I
went to the mall to go on my interview, and
I was like, I can't work at a mall, and
(06:27):
so then instead I just like worked at like a
community mental health agency. Eventually, two years later I became
a private practice therapist and the phantom pe anxiety attacks
never came back.
Speaker 3 (06:39):
That is crazy.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
I was making a joke about not continuing on with
your degree, but imagine like, and we'll get into it,
but I know your mom's a therapist yet, but imagine
like your mom being so proud of you, like you've
you've just graduated, you doing therapy. You're like, sorry, mom,
I'm gonna pisce myself every session I'm quitting.
Speaker 4 (06:55):
Yeah, the way, if that would have happened, if that
would have continued, I'd be like, I'm not supposed to
be a therapist, forget it. But luckily it never came back.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
It must be so interesting being like an intergenerational therapist,
growing up with parents who a therapist and then getting
into that industry yourself. I mean I almost question like that,
what is that like, growing up as a kid with
parents who are so literate in this world? Is it
something I don't know, what was your experience of it?
I wonder if it's like a positive thing. Or also
(07:27):
you can be in a situation where like parents are
almost too in tune, like they know too much.
Speaker 4 (07:32):
The problem is that, like anybody can become a therapist,
So you would imagine that maybe like a therapist who's
also a parent would be like really emotionally in tune
with their kid. She was not, and she has not
been very so, like she's like probably a good therapist
for the clients that she sees, but when she was
(07:53):
a parent, she was not in tune with me. And
she also struggled with like her own mental health issues
and addiction issues, so she was like pretty checked out,
the sad sort of not trying to bring everything down
here and we can like laugh about it.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
Yeah, I think people would have a perspective or a
thought around it. If you are the child of a therapist,
that you're supposed to have it all worked out.
Speaker 4 (08:18):
Yeah, and that makes total sense. And uh, yeah, she
didn't have it all worked out. I didn't have it
all worked out. I think. You know, for the longest time,
my plan was not to become a therapist. I was
going to be like a major league baseball player, or
I was going to be an animator or I was
going to be in like make video games or graphic design,
(08:38):
but I like switched to becoming a therapist. I think
is because I wanted to figure out how to connect
with my mom because I never felt really connected with her.
So I was like, well, if I'm a therapist, then
maybe we can like have the same language talk about
similar stuff. That didn't really work, but she did. She
did influence me in a round about way to become
(09:01):
a therapist, So I'm happy with the profession I have.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
Well, so you wrote this book Big Dating Energy, and
I had a very very deep dive into your socials
and you know, the theme is dating relationships sex. Did
you go down that route because that was not a pun?
Did you go down that route because that is the
main problem that people were coming to you with, Like
you saw the theme here, so you're like, let's just
(09:26):
hone in on that.
Speaker 4 (09:27):
I did. Yeah. When I originally became a therapist twenty
years ago, my goal, what I wanted to do is
just work with children and families, and I did that
for a while. I worked with kids mostly like eleven
to thirteen year old, like when you know, when they're
just fucking turds, but like the best little thirds ever,
(09:48):
like they're still like they're starting to become angsty. And
I did family therapy and top parenting classes, and I
thought that I was going to do like family parenting
stuff for my whole career. But when I opened my
private practice, I just got kept on getting like people
on their twenties that were having problems and issues in
their dating life. And so the more clients I got,
(10:10):
the more I just focused on it and specialized in it,
and I just became a therapist only that primarily sees
people that are dating and in relationships or new relationships,
and because of that, I started specializing in it. And
then a few years ago when I started posting online,
I was like, well, I'll just talk about what I
typically talk about, and it worked out.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
It's so hard because, like you know, I'm in my
late thirties now, but I know for myself my own
personal experience, the only time that I have been through
therapy was in my twenties, and it was when I
was dating and I was so confused by the relationship
that I was in. It was such an absolute fucking
cess pit of a relationship, and I kind of needed
help figuring my way out of it, but also then
(10:50):
I had to do the repair work around Okay, well
what's wrong with me? Like why do I keep attracting
this into my life? I mean that was a real
eye open up. But also I think we can often
talk about this idea that the reason why we're in
therapy is because a lot of the people around us
probably should be the ones in therapy, but we're.
Speaker 3 (11:07):
Doing the work.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
Do you think, like, how much do you think it
is what is done to us verse what we are accepting,
or what we're bringing into our own lives, and am
I how much we need to yeah, take responsibility for it?
Speaker 4 (11:19):
I think it's well. I think that like who we are,
how we show up in relationships is highly influenced by
our family and by our friends, and by the culture,
and by all the movies and media and content that
we absorb. I mean, when we're little, the only intimate
relationship that really matters to us, when we're really really
(11:41):
little is the relationship that we have with our parents.
That is our first intimate relationship. That's how we learn
about what love is and what to expect from love,
and how we need to behave in order to receive love.
It might be that we're competing with our siblings who
are also trying to get love, and there ways and
usually you know, I was I'm the younger sibling. I
(12:03):
have an older sister, and my sister is very like,
big energy, theatrical, likes to be in the spotlight, very loud,
fun puts on a bunch of fucking skits when we're kids,
you know, like knows how to get the attention whenever
she wants. And so I had to figure out how
do I get the attention because I can't compete with her.
So instead I'm going to try to be, you know,
(12:26):
the good kid that does everything right, really quiet, reserve,
gets good grades, doesn't bother anybody, right. And that wasn't
a conscious decision. That was me just being really little,
trying to find my own lane. And then as we
grow up a lot of times we start to emulate
how we first decided to try to get love or
be loved or And usually when we're little and we're
(12:47):
not getting the love that we want or that we deserve,
we blame ourselves and we're like, oh, it's because I'm
not funny enough, or smart enough or talented enough or
I don't you know. So there's we grow up and
we start to think that we're the problem, and then
we typically attract other partners that reinforce the same issues
that we fear. So I think that we can squarely
(13:09):
blame our parents, our family, the culture, the media. We
absorb all the messages. The problem is is that like
you're never going to change unless you take responsibility for it.
So yes, fuck your parents, and also what are you
going to do about it? Like, yeah, you can just
sort of like never heal and blame everybody. And that's
(13:30):
cute when you're a teenager or in your early twenties,
but it's not attractive when you get into your late
twenties or thirties or forties or older, you know what
I mean. So yeah, I think whether it's through therapy
or through journaling or through a walk about, eventually you
have to get to a place where you have to
take control over you know, how you show up in
(13:52):
relationship and what you're going to do about it. But
I love blaming everybody else, but you can only do
that for a little while.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
Yeah, it gets old pretty quickly when you or never
the problem. But I remember how long it took me
to figure out that I was the problem. And I
don't I don't say that in a bad way, like
I was very problematic, but the problem for me never
getting into a relationship was because I was a commitment foe.
Speaker 3 (14:13):
But I didn't know that.
Speaker 5 (14:14):
So I was blaming everyone else.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
It's like he did this like finding these ridiculous red
flags and relationships and people were like, that's not a
red flag. And eventually I ended up going to therapy
off the back of a breakup.
Speaker 5 (14:25):
And that was like the only times I have ever been.
Speaker 1 (14:28):
To therapy is off the back of a breakup, Which
is interesting because we know it's a muscle that you
should be using all.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
The time in the highs and the low Also, you
britg just saying that, it's so interesting to me because
I think anyone who has had that realization, I also
have had that realization that there's a pattern and that
I was the one responsible for that pattern. Anyone who
actually wakes up and sees that, it's like it's your
instant antidote for taking control. Once you know that you
(14:56):
do that same thing over and over and it's giving
you the same relationships. Like that is such it's like
a breath of fresh air. It's kind of hard to
stomach at first, but then you're like, oh, I'm.
Speaker 3 (15:05):
Doing this, I can control this. It's amazing.
Speaker 5 (15:09):
Taylor Swift said it perfect. I'm the problem to me.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
Yeah, but Jeff, you've been doing therapy for decades now,
and I don't I don't say that to make you feel.
Speaker 5 (15:18):
Old, but it's plural, like you're you're very experienced.
Speaker 1 (15:21):
What is the difference now in dating that you have
seen and the problems that people are bringing. Do you
think it's harder for people to date now in this
society than it was, say, ten, fifteen years ago?
Speaker 4 (15:32):
You know, I'm wondering what you two think about this,
like what your answer would be as well, because I
have an answer for it, and a lot of times
when people ask me that, they're like, nah, I don't
think that's right. So feel free to disagree with me,
because one answer that I don't typically say, but other
people seem to think that it's this is that, like,
you know what, dating has been hard in every single generation.
(15:56):
There hasn't been one generation where you're just like, you
know what, dating is pretty sweet right now? Having a
great time out there, it's super easy, which is probably true.
I don't know if I've ever heard of any generation
that felt like they had it like really easy. So
one way to look at it is dating has always
been hard, it's always tricky, it's always weird. But I
do actually think it's harder these days. And one of
(16:21):
the reasons is because of all the dating apps. One
of the primary ways we meet people is through these
dating apps. Most of these dating apps are owned by
the same big company called Match Group. They own Match
and Tinder and plenty of Fish and Hinge. They don't
own Bumble Bumbles, like the only app that they don't
(16:42):
own this big But they're all just there to make
money off of your desperate heart or your horny genitals.
And there's like an algorithm, an algorithm and all these
fucking dating apps that make it so that like they
don't want you to actually find love, so that one
of the primary way we try to find love through
dating apps is actively working against us because if we
(17:05):
do delete the app, which is part of their bullshit marketing,
they want us to believe that they want us to
delete the app. But if we delete the app, then
they don't make any money and their investors get really mad,
and all the tech bros you know, can't buy their
fancy cars or cool houses or you know. So like,
I think that there's this extra thing that's going on
(17:26):
that's making it harder. Also, the pandemic and lockdown made
everybody super fucking weird. I don't understand we haven't rebounded
from it, like when it comes to like relationships and dating.
So I think that there's this technology factor that does
make it harder. What are you two things?
Speaker 2 (17:43):
I also wonder if because of this technology factor, I'm
not saying that this is a bad thing or a
good thing. I feel kind of well, I mean, I
don't know how I feel about it, but I think
it has created a culture where we are defiant against
this idea of settling. But sometimes we write people before
we've even given them the opportunity as to whether they
would be someone that would be quote unquote settling, because
(18:06):
we've created this idea around the perfect person, and so
we're swiping.
Speaker 3 (18:10):
It seems never ending.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
There seems like there's so many options, and so we
treat people quite disposably, and it limits our ability to
have a connection, which would then let us make a
decision as to whether, Okay, if iways to have a
relationship with this person, would that be settling for me?
But we kind of don't even get to that point
sometimes because it's so transactional.
Speaker 1 (18:30):
Well, I think because dating fatigue is standard in every generation,
but I think it's exacerbated by the fact that we
have dating apps now because you do become fatigued faster.
If you were dating in the wild and you met somebody,
you're going to just focus on that one person. You're
not going to be one hundred other people in the
back of your head. You're not going to like roll
over in bed and swipe because it didn't exist. But
(18:51):
now you are telling your story to someone and meeting
someone ten times a day, so the fatigue I think
comes quicker, which in turn results in it being are
harder and more exhausting to want to date anymore. And like,
dating fatigue is one of the most common things I
hear from my friends and that I experienced.
Speaker 5 (19:07):
It's like, I can't be fucking bothered.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
I was like, I'm deleting the apps, not because I
found someone, but because, like I'm cooked, I don't want
to look for someone else, and I want to tell
someone who I am, how old I am, what I do,
Like I want to make a PowerPoint presentation that I
can give someone, say watch it. This is like dating
me for five weeks and then if you're interested, come.
Speaker 5 (19:25):
Back and we'll go from there.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
But so, I think dating fatigue is probably one of
the biggest things we come up against.
Speaker 5 (19:29):
Now.
Speaker 4 (19:30):
Oh yeah, and there's well, first, Laura, yes, like there's
this endless scroll of possibilities. You can always go back
on the dating apps, and the dating apps give you
the same dopamine rush that you get from social media
apps or any other app that pulls you back in.
And yeah, but there's like that, the dating fatigue is
(19:51):
a real problem. There's some real weird solutions to dating
fatigue that are getting thrown out there where like kind
of what you're saying, where they're like, there's now they're
creating AI to figure out like who you really are,
and then you create an AI avatar of who you
are on a date, and your AI avatar dates somebody
(20:12):
else's AI avatar to see if you'll get along, and
then if the AI avatars enjoy each other, then you
can actually meet in real life. There's all these so
many weird fucking startups that contact me and they tell
me these dumb fuck ideas. They're like, we want you
to be the face of this, or we want a
(20:34):
sponsored content. I'm just like, you're ridiculous.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
It's almost like, how can we have less human connection?
Like how can we gamify the world even more? Like
it does feel and exactly as you mentioned, like dating
apps gamify something, but when you hardwire emotion and then
also addiction together, it's such a recipe for being disappointed
and also a recipe for disaster when it comes to
your past.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
Well, imagine sending you ai avatar on the date for
you off you go.
Speaker 5 (21:02):
Let me know how it goes, Like do they have cybersex?
Speaker 3 (21:05):
Huck?
Speaker 5 (21:09):
Like, what do they report back?
Speaker 3 (21:10):
Went?
Speaker 5 (21:11):
Well, orgasm twice?
Speaker 3 (21:12):
You get in there? Get it? Is it dirty work?
Speaker 1 (21:19):
Jof?
Speaker 2 (21:19):
I know we touched on it a tiny bit before,
but I would love to get your perspective on it.
You know, we've talked about this idea of like realizing
that we have control and you know, seeing when you're
the problem when it comes to choosing the people that
you're dating.
Speaker 3 (21:32):
But the idea of patterns do we.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
All like, does everyone kind of follow a pattern when
it comes to dating, or a blueprint when it comes
to how we choose our relationships and people that we
are attracted to.
Speaker 4 (21:43):
Uh yeah, I think so, Yes, we do. Although you know,
there's some folks out there that have a pattern and
then they try to like disrupt the pattern and change.
It might not be true for every single person out there,
and some people maybe are just like totally fucking chaotic,
and that's that's a pattern. Yeah, they're chaos. But I
do think that there is a pattern. And like you
(22:04):
were saying earlier, once you recognize what the pattern is,
it's usually like who do you feel most comfortable with?
Who makes you feel more familiar? Are you experiencing the
same types of issues over and over again. It's likely
linked to your parents, your family and the messages that
you picked up along the way. And once you recognize
(22:26):
it and shine a light on it, it doesn't have
as much power over you than it did before, and
now you it's like liberating. You have control over it.
It's not controlling you. You don't have to go to
therapy to figure out what the pattern is. Your friends
probably know what the pattern is. You just ask them
to be honest with.
Speaker 5 (22:44):
You, right, Laura was telling you thease. She's like, it's
your brittany.
Speaker 2 (22:49):
Your friends is such a mirror because you go to
them with everything, and you know, if you have great friends,
they might be honest with you. But other friends are
just a sounding board and they probably walk away and
be like, fuck, Sarah's hot mess, like she's doing the
same thing again, but maybe don't give you the positive
feedback that you or that not even positive, but the
right feedback that you are quiet to make to make
(23:11):
some changes.
Speaker 4 (23:12):
It's not uncommon for me to ask my clients or
I like, okay, client, we're gonna script an email for
you that you're going to send to your five closest
friends that's going to say something like, Hey, you know me,
I'm experiencing the same bullshit and my relationships over and over.
I'm not exactly sure why that is. I'm feeling overwhelmed
by it. Can you give me honest feedback about why
(23:35):
you think it is that I keep on attracting these
folks and I won't get mad at you. This is
like a free non judgmental zone, and I just like
want to use this. I can learn about myself more
and talk about this in therapy. And when you give
your friends the opportunity to be honest with you and
ask them also to be compassionate while they're doing it,
then there is so much you can learn there, and
(23:57):
there's a lot of change that can happen pretty quickly.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
You have something that I want to get your opinion
on it, and I never know the right answer, and
I battle with it, and I know everyone does. It's
this idea of like playing a game when you're dating.
We all say let's not play games, Like if you
get a message right back. You know, we all have
been in a place where we're like, oh, I've got
the message, I'll wait two hours and right back, I'll
wait four hours. I hate playing games, but I understand
(24:22):
there's actually a psychology behind it, Like it does make
you want something more or make them want something more
if it's not as easily given to you. What is
your overall advice in dating around that manipulation and game playing?
Speaker 4 (24:37):
I mean, if you want to play the game, then
you better be able to keep it up for the
whole fucking relationship. Like, if that's what the relationship is
going to be based on, is the game playing and
the slight manipulation or making it so that they want
you because you're not available, Like I hope you have
a lot of energy to continue doing that, and also
(24:58):
think about the type of person and that you're attracting
that's only going to maybe like you if you're being
a little gaming. Is that the kind of person that
you want to be with. If that is, and you
want to play the game and it's really fun, and
then go for it. There are a lot of times
I ask clients the question, do you want chaos and
unpredictability because that feels exciting and fun, or do you
(25:20):
want balance and harmony because it seems like you're saying
you want balance and harmony, but you keep on going
and creating chaos and excitement and drama, you know. And
I feel like the game playing leans into the chaotic manipulation,
not real authentic connection. But the thing is is that
(25:41):
it can work. But that's not what a healthy relationship.
That's not how a healthy relationship is created. That's not
how you create a healthy, sturdy, stable, secure foundation. And
there's a lot of content creators out there on TikTok
or Instagram, whatever you are talking about the game playing,
and it works if you're a player, but it's not
(26:02):
going to work long term. Long term probably.
Speaker 2 (26:05):
It sounds like such an unhealthy way to start a relationship,
especially when we're talking about Okay, well, if you're at
a point where you're done with the bullshit and you
actually want a great relationship, like and you want to
do something that's different to the way that you've been
doing it thus far, which I hope if you're listening
to this episode, that's kind of what it is that
you're trying to get out of it. So I guess,
like what would be those things? What is ground zero from? Like, Okay,
(26:27):
we're here. Dating hasn't been working for you so far,
Let's try something a bit different.
Speaker 4 (26:32):
I'm the guy that always says just sort of like
show up authentically, which what the fuck does that mean?
Speaker 1 (26:37):
Really?
Speaker 4 (26:37):
And I think it's it's something like I just hate
that word authenticity, even though it's on the cover of
my book. I'm sick of it. But it's more of
like show up as your flawed, imperfect self, you know,
in like in a way where you're not judging yourself,
you're not trying to hide yourself too much. That being said,
(27:01):
we're not here to trauma dump on the first date
where you're telling your date every single thing. You're really
just showing up for the first date or two or
three where you're just checking out vibes. Is their banter,
is there some attraction? Are you having a good time?
Do they ask good questions? Do I want to see
them again? Right? So, once you get past the first
few dates, then you can start to be a little
(27:23):
bit more investigative if you want, and start really showing
up and asking for a little bit about like what
your needs are, what your desires are, what you're looking for,
what your future plans are, if you two can kind
of connect on what a relationship style is that you're
looking for. But I also am the type of guy
that's just like, if you're not getting your needs met
(27:43):
or you're feeling a little let down and it's date
number five, go ahead and just ask for those needs
to be met. Just put them out there, see if
they can actually meet those needs. Don't demand it, don't
be weird about it, don't try to shame them or
attack them, but be like, hey, I'm not here from
you a lot, and that makes me feel like you're
not really into me. Can you text more? Can you
(28:05):
do that? And then see how they respond and if
they respond or like, of course I can, If they
respond or like I don't know, then that's like important
data and information you're gathering to figure out if they're
a good match for you. So basically, show up, authentically,
be yourself, ask for your needs to be met. If
it seems like they can make reasonable change. You're not
going to ask them to change their personality. That's just
(28:28):
kind of fucked up and they can't do that. So
if they can make a reasonable change in order to
meet some of those needs, great. And then usually if
there's like a honeymoon period right where therapists call honeymoon
periods mutual positive projection periods because you're just like projecting
all the positivity on each other and looking at all
the good things. And sure you have roast tinted glasses on,
(28:51):
which means that all the red flags are just flags.
But like still you're supposed to really lean into the
honeymoon period because it creates a bunch of trust, that
creates that really strong foundation so that when you're out
of the honeymoon period and really get to see who
you are, then you can lean on something that you've
(29:12):
built for the past six months or something. So typically
when we get out of the honeymoon period, that's when
we get all the good information of are we a
good match?
Speaker 2 (29:20):
And I guess this is a conversation that might happen
quite early on for some people. So you know, big
deal breakers like do you want kids? Like how do
you want the mechanics of this relationship to work? How
important do you think it is that if somebody what
they want in their life doesn't align in what they're
saying to you versus how you feel about the relationship,
(29:42):
how important is it to kind of I guess maybe
step back or put the brakes on, because I think
one of the big things is is we get questions
around people who are like they've forged headfirst into relationships,
they're deeply in love, but their lives just don't align
or something has gone and it's like, how did you
get to two years of dating and no know that
you guys didn't he didn't want to have keyts or
whatever it was. How important do you think it is
(30:04):
to kind of lead with your head over your heart
in those situations?
Speaker 4 (30:07):
I think it's super important. I'm into making lists, but
mostly lists that have deal breakers on them, not lists
of like one hundred different things that you're fantasizing about
in a relationship. But do you want kids, what is
your relationship style, where do you want to live? What's
the most important thing to you in a relationship, and
write that down and stick to it. The problem is
(30:30):
is that we make that list of deal breakers and
non negotiables, and most often, once somebody shows us their
red flag or their deal breaker, we're like, nah, fuck it.
Speaker 3 (30:40):
We make an allow us.
Speaker 4 (30:40):
We also allow us. Yeah, And it's so interesting. You
learn so much about yourself when you decide to throw
that list away, like are you feeling desperate? Are you
feeling like your needs don't matter? Are you abandoning yourself?
And just like I'm just going to be here for them,
Like what the fuck is going on here? Because you're
(31:01):
gonna regret it. And it's also the people that typically
are like I love our big differences, like I'm a
night owl and and he's an early bird, and I'm
an extrovert and they're an introvert. And they list all
these opposites and they're like, because it balances us out.
I'm like, no, motherfucker, you're going to be fighting about
that shit in six months to a year. I guarantee it.
(31:23):
You're going to find yourself in my office and you're
going to be so far apart, like I'm super liberal
and they're really conservative. But it's like, oh no, there's
no way to compromise on some of these things, right, Yeah,
so it's really important to use your head.
Speaker 1 (31:37):
Yes, So all of a sudden, you're like, well, monogamy
and loyalty is not the most important thing, so you
scrap that off the list. You like, what we'll deal
with it? What's your thought around I mean differentiating the
honeymoon phase and that chemistry and bombardment and love bombing
and on that is love bombing always such a negative
thing because when we use it, it's negative, like, oh,
(31:59):
he's love bombing you instead of you know, oh my god,
it's a love bomb like you just shower. Yeah, Like,
can you differentiate between it being positive and negative? And
then the difference between love bombing and honeymoon.
Speaker 4 (32:11):
Yeah, that's a great question. I think that when you're
receiving love bombs and it's a bad thing, usually you're
getting love bombed, and it's going to be used for manipulation.
It's going to be used to like control you. It's
going to be used so that you get addicted to them.
It's going to be used so that you're just like,
oh my god, this is the only person for me,
(32:32):
and oh my god, they like check all of my boxes.
They are perfect, and they're showering me with all the
love and care and sexiness that that I deserve. And
so if it starts to make you feel like they
are the only one for me and nothing else matters,
and now I'm starting to give up important parts of
my life to spend even more time, like I'm not
(32:54):
spending time with my friends, or I'm not going to school,
or I'm not doing work very well or whatever. If
you start to get like you crave their love bombs
that they give you sporadically, because they're also training you
like they train a good dog, where they're only going
to show up randomly, or they're not going to give
you like a schedule or you can't count on them.
(33:14):
But when they do show up, oh my god, the
best sex of your life. Right. So that's when love
bombs are not great. But there's kind of like a
lower version of love bombing, which is just like, I
really like you, and there's so many green flags here
because we have so many interests that are in common.
Our values really sync up. We want the same things
(33:35):
out of life. We have really good banter. Oh, I'm
so excited for us. Right, we're noticing the things that
you're complimenting each other on that are good matches instead
of I'm love bombing you and nobody will ever love
you the way that I'm loving you.
Speaker 1 (33:48):
You know what I mean?
Speaker 3 (33:49):
How do you see the difference?
Speaker 2 (33:51):
Though? I think that's the big thing, because you know what,
and I guess I talk about from my own personal experience.
My relationship with my now husband worked great. He's amazing.
But I would have said we would have we because
we were always in contact. We will like text each
other every second of the day. It was a very
different situation. But had it not ended amazingly, someone would
(34:12):
look back on that and go, well, that was love bombing, Like,
how do you see the red flags amongst the green flags?
Speaker 4 (34:18):
Usually, like a red flag love bomb is not consistent,
so it'll only come every now and then. If you're
both telling each other how much you like each other
consistently regularly you're both like love bombing each other with
the same amount of energy, then that's great. We love
to see it. And yeah, but if it's start, if
(34:39):
you start to feel like you're addicted to it, and
if you don't get the love bomb, then you have
a bad day or you're really sad, then that's not
a great sign. This is also like if you ask
your friends honestly, if they think that you're getting love bombed.
Usually if you ask them like, do you think I'm changing?
Do you think I'm not actually the person who I
really am around them? Do you think I'm not showing
(35:01):
up as my authentic self when I'm with them? If
your friends are like, yes, I'm concerned for you, then
that's something that takes seriously.
Speaker 1 (35:09):
You've made me just realize that I started my relationship
like all wrong. First of all, it was one hundred
percent love bombing, like.
Speaker 2 (35:15):
We were mutual, and it was and it was consistent.
Speaker 3 (35:18):
The difference, Yeah, it.
Speaker 1 (35:19):
Was consistent presence, texting every day, calling each other all day,
like everything that you would want. But then also I
think we got together because I meant it really hard
for him, was like I don't really want that at
a long distance, I'm not into it. So I feel
like I did everything that we talked about to hear
that you shouldn't do.
Speaker 3 (35:35):
I think I did that.
Speaker 4 (35:37):
There's always an exception to the rule. Nobody.
Speaker 2 (35:42):
I think that that's the problem, is right, is that
so many of us think we're going to be the exceptional.
We think that that relationship because we've created this situation
in our head where we've gotten so attached to the
potential that we see in a relationship rather than what
that person's actually giving us. And then if you were
to actually write it down on paper what that person's
give giving you verse what the relationship could be if
(36:03):
just this one thing changed or just that one thing changed,
and then they're actually completely wells apart, whereas like for
you Britain, that wasn't the case. Like you guys consistently
have shown up in your relationship. Yeah, the obsession was equal,
it was equal.
Speaker 3 (36:17):
Yeah, I mean it matters.
Speaker 2 (36:18):
I think that that in conversation, specifically around love bombing,
is so interesting because when you're in it, it's so
hard to see the trees through the forest. It's so
hard to know that that's something that's toxic until you're
too far gone and their behavior changes so much, and
by then you're just scrambling to try and get any
kind of scraps of their attention.
Speaker 3 (36:38):
But putting the brakes on that is really really challenging.
Speaker 4 (36:42):
It is. And there's also like love bombing can happen,
and it can be okay as long as you're not
using it to have power over that person or make
them crazy or crave you or something. There's kind of like,
if you really like each other and you're really excited
about each other and you're both love bombing each other,
(37:04):
that's fine. That's like there's a lot of honeymoon stuff.
So I'm okay with it. As long as you're not
an evil person, Yeah, then you're gonna be okay. Most likely.
Speaker 2 (37:12):
Do you think like for people who have experienced and
we've done a lot of conversations around like dating narcissists,
and I feel like that's a time that gets branded
around a lot. But do you think that there are
people who literally wake up in the morning with the
conscious intent of manipulating that person or do you think
it is just a byproduct of their own shitty behavior?
(37:32):
Because we always kind of talk about it in this
way that it's like this very methodical thing, but I'm like,
surely these it's just like one fucked up person dating
another fucked up person, and then the chaos of their
relationship is kind of what unfolds.
Speaker 4 (37:44):
I don't think that they wake up thinking like I'm
gonna do some fantastic manipulation today. I think that they're
I think that they're probably deeply insecure people and this
is how they're operating to try to get power and
contry and they don't know any better, and it's most
likely because of their trauma or that's just their their
(38:06):
DNA or their family or whatever it is, and they
never learned relationship skills and we can probably blame their
family or their parents or whatever.
Speaker 3 (38:16):
Fuck your parents, Yeah, fuck your parents.
Speaker 4 (38:19):
But they never took responsibility and changed it, and they
probably got a ton of feedback that they just ignored.
So no, it usually comes from like, if you're a narcissistic,
you're deeply insecure and you can't admit it.
Speaker 3 (38:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:33):
Wow, a question and topic we get all the time
that constantly proves very divisive here, So I'd love your
opinion on it. Cheating is cheating the end of the
world for a relationship or do you sometimes think that
it can be used as a tool to work through
and make the relationship better.
Speaker 4 (38:53):
Well, I will say that there's research to back this
up and my own personal experience working with clients, there's
over I think it's like over sixty six percent of people.
So two thirds of people that get cheated on or
there's infidelity in their relationship, they stay together and work
it out and they're okay in the end. So there's
(39:14):
that stat where like most people actually stay together. I
think that there's this belief that if you do get
cheated on, the relationship should be over. That's it, fuck it,
you're gone, And there's I know, it's a really big betrayal.
It's incredibly hurtful. Usually when there's infidelity and those that
couple comes into my office. I've seen those folks hundreds
(39:37):
of times, and a lot of times they want to
go back to what the relationship used to be before
the cheating, and I'm like, sorry, Beabe, but that is
not possible. That relationship is over, So how are we
going to create a new relationship and a new chapter
moving forward? So if you can if you can do that,
which it takes a lot of work, then it can
(40:00):
like the relationship can be just as strong or stronger
than ever and it's going to be okay. But a
lot of it is determined on the cheater, Like does
the cheater. There's so many times one of the first
questions I ask when that cheating couple comes into the
session is I'll ask the cheater, why'd you do it?
(40:20):
And I'm like hoping and praying that they can be like, oh,
this is why I did it, because then we don't
have to spend the next ten to thirty sessions going
through like if they say I don't know why I
did it, well, then fuck it's going to happen again.
Then maybe if you have no idea why this happened,
and you can't take accountability and understand how you got
from point A to point B and how you made
(40:42):
those decisions to do all those cheats, then we're not
going to get you might as well just not even
be here anymore. So if they know why they did it,
if they can take accountability, if they can understand the
harm and the damage and the betrayal and the fucked
up trust that is now creative because of those decisions,
then there's a possibility for healing. The other part is
(41:03):
that the person who got cheated on, and I want
to like disclaimer here, I am not doing victim blaming.
And even if there is a problem in the relationship,
that that should not constitute cheating. But the person that
got cheated on, is there anything that they did in
(41:24):
order to contribute to the problem that eventually led to
the infidelity. Again, you shouldn't have been cheated on, but
you are probably part of this system that helped to
create the situation where there is cheats. So as long
as we can be honest, take accountability, be empathetic, turn
a new page, then I've seen these relationships be stronger
(41:47):
than ever. But it takes a lot of emotional work.
It's also cheating is like one, like maybe only one
of the things in relationships where you have to be
one hundred percent perfect. There's all these other things that
we do in relationships where we're not one hundred percent perfect,
whether it's like losing our temper or washing the dishes
or not picking up the kid whatever. Like you're just like,
(42:08):
all right, fine, but if you do one little cheat,
fuck it we're done. This is over. And there was
a I was talking to Dan Savage was on my podcast.
You know Dan Savage, he's like a sex relationship all
star here in the Pacific Northwest, and he told his husband,
(42:30):
He's like, look, if we're going to have a kid,
then what I need is to have a guarantee that
if one of us cheats. If I cheat on you,
then that doesn't mean that we're automatically done, because I
don't want to fuck over that kid if I accidentally
cheat on you, but if you're like, accidentally, if I
(42:50):
somehow find myself inside of someone.
Speaker 2 (42:54):
Because you're saying that, I know that there'll be people
listening to that who would have interpreted it as a
get out of jol free Kiaud Like, well, okay, you've
said that, now I'm going to do it, But that's
not what this is.
Speaker 4 (43:05):
No, he's just like I'm He's like, I'm not going
to expect either one of us are going to be perfect,
and so I want to make sure that we stay
together forever for our kid that we're going to have,
which means that we have to like not have this
huge The relationship is over if we cheat on each
other and it's and it's mostly because the definition of
cheating is different for everybody and it evolves, and it's
(43:29):
usually the thing that I ask people to ask. Once
you define the relationship, you should ask what does cheating
look like to you? What does cheating count as? And
then you can like figure out if you're on the
same page or if you have to make a compromise.
Speaker 2 (43:43):
We're not saying be in relationships but you're being cheated
on continuously. We're not saying stay in relationships where you
know there's no trust. What we're saying is is when
two people show up in a relationship and if you
know there has been infidelity, but they are wanting to
be committed to that relationship and their actions are also aligned.
They're not just saying that they want to be committed
(44:03):
and then still going out with the boys on Friday
night and they don't fucking text you and you don't
know where they are. Two different things. But I understand
why people work through that. And now also as a parent,
my opinions of it have changed, and that doesn't invalidate
how fucking hard it is, though when it happens in
your relationship, I can't even comprehend.
Speaker 3 (44:20):
It's fucking really really challenging.
Speaker 1 (44:23):
No, But the reaction, I think is what is the
make or break right, Like the reaction to any situation,
but in a cheating or infidelity situation, it's if they're
going to gaslight you say it's your fault, be like,
what do you think was gonna happen?
Speaker 5 (44:34):
Like, you know, let's stay together.
Speaker 1 (44:35):
But if there's if there's no accountability, responsibility, ownership, then
the relationship's not right. You're probably not gonna work through
the cheating. But if they do come to you, Jeff
and say this is why I did it, this is
why I want never want to do it again, this
is why I want to work through it, then yeah,
then your relationship probably can be repaired. So I don't
want anyone to think that I am out here advocating
for cheating, Like fucking go fuck around and make it work.
Speaker 2 (44:57):
Go fuck around and see cheating and games Britton right.
Speaker 4 (45:01):
It is kind of a generational thing too. I think
that younger folks who haven't been in as many relationships
are just like, no, you cheat on me, I'm out,
which I get. But as you get older and you
start to like see that relationships get more complicated, or
there's you don't want to leave a relationship if they're
cheating because you've been together for fifteen years and you
have kids and a home and an intertwined life, then
(45:23):
you're gonna be like, well, okay, I think maybe we
can work through this, and it's understandable in some sort
of way. So there's also like the younger you are,
the more you're like, I'm not going to take this.
The older you are, the more you're like, can we
work through this?
Speaker 3 (45:36):
Absolutely?
Speaker 2 (45:37):
The only other thing I think is probably something that
and I can't remember who said it, but it was
such a good take on it. We have this opinion
that if there was cheating, there must never have been loved,
Like they can't possibly love you if they treat you
like that, And those two things aren't mutually exclusive, like
everything is so great that like it doesn't one doesn't
rule the other one out, which I think is such
(45:57):
an important thing to keep perspective on, especially if you
in that situation where you've been together for fifteen years,
you have children, that one incident doesn't mean that everything
else about your life was a lie. And that's kind
of what society tells us. And when it comes to
these situations, I.
Speaker 1 (46:11):
Agree, Jeff, what else can people get from big dating energy?
Speaker 5 (46:15):
I mean, I know we've.
Speaker 1 (46:16):
Covered a lot of it here, but who are the
people that are going to come for this book?
Speaker 4 (46:20):
Well, if you like my rant on blaming your parents,
there's a whole fucking chapter where I talk about how
it's your parents fault, and then there's another chapter after
that where I blame everybody else, Hollywood, reality shows, your teachers, whoever.
I So there's a lot of focus on who we
can blame, and then it starts to I start to
(46:42):
gaslight you into thinking that that's what the whole book
is going to be about, until I'm just like, actually,
need to take responsibility for your shit, and this is
how you can do it. And then I go into
like the all right, fine, you want to get out there,
here's the first things you can do. Do you want
to use those shitty dating apps, here's some tips. Do
you want to meet people in real life? Here's even
more tips. We start going through the first few dates,
(47:04):
the honeymoon period, after the honeymoon period, how to be
in long term relationships, all of those stages of the
relationship I get into, like, how you can do it
in a really healthy way where you're not abandoning yourself,
you're being really authentic, you're getting those needs met, but
you're healing and growing within those relationships. I think there's
a lot of people that are like, oh, I have
to be healed and reach a certain healthy place and
(47:26):
then I can start dating. But you do the healing
within the relationship most of the time, so it's me
trying to nudge you in order to do that. I
get into like how to have healthy fights and conflict.
I get into how to get through all the sexy
issues that you're having in relationship. And then one of
my favorite chapters is the breakup chapter, So how to
(47:48):
get through it if you get broken up? But how
to break up with somebody in a really ethical, on
a straightforward way, because there are so many bad breaker
uppers out there.
Speaker 2 (47:57):
It's so hot, though, isn't it, Like everyone knows kind
of how to deal with being broken up with because
it happens to you, So you just have to go
through it. So when you're the person who has to
do the breaking up, especially when the person you're dating
is a good person, like they've not done anything wrong,
they're kind, care about them. You don't want to see
them cry. That is I think the hardest. Well, it's
(48:18):
not as hard as being broken up with, but it's
it's it is so hard. And there are people, there
are people who stay in relationships for years and they
are unhappy. Yeah, because they can't do it. They can't
break up. I did it, I say, in a relationship
for over a year.
Speaker 3 (48:32):
And a half. I did it too. I think we
all do it, and it was so dead in the water.
But I couldn't break up with them. Yeah, it's so hard.
Speaker 5 (48:39):
If you want to break up with someone, get get
the book.
Speaker 4 (48:41):
Yeah, big dating Energy.
Speaker 5 (48:44):
Thanks for your time today, Jeff. We really appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (48:46):
We're going to put all the links in our show
notes for anyone that wants to go and find more
than Girl.
Speaker 4 (49:00):
The company appeared they by the
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