Brooke Boney Doesn’t Know What’s Next… And She’s Ok With That

Brooke Boney had one of the best gigs in the world. For years, we woke up with her on morning TV. It was a job that changed her life—until one morning, she made a decision that would change her life again. She announced, live on air, that she was done. Not just with breakfast television, but with Australia. She was heading overseas to study at Oxford.

She’s back in Australia now - wiser, thoughtful, and unsure of what her next move will be. She’s collected her wisdom in a new book, All Of It, and that pretty much sums up this special episode of No Filter. 

In this conversation, you’ll hear Kate & Brooke discuss:

• Fame & Stalkers (yes, plural)
• Why Brooke loves sport so much
• Family, Fertility, and Love
• Being the first Indigenous woman on commercial TV
• So much more…

You can find Brooke’s book, All Of It, here:https://www.allenandunwin.com/browse/book/Brooke-Boney-All-of-It-9781761068003

You can follow Brooke on Instagram, here: https://www.instagram.com/boneybrooke/

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CREDITS:

Guests: Brooke Boney

Host: Kate Langbroek

Executive Producer: Naima Brown

Senior Producer: Grace Rouvray

Audio Producer: Jacob Round

Mamamia acknowledges the Traditional Owners of the Land we have recorded this podcast on, the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation. We pay our respects to their Elders past and present, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander cultures.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:10):
You're listening to a mother and me a podcast. Mama
mayor acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters that
this podcast is recorded on.

Speaker 2 (00:18):
You know that you're looked at, or that you sort
of look a certain way. But I didn't kind of
realize how much of an impact, not just physically, but
like even like emotionally or like the way that I
expressed myself was like filtered through some sort of subconscious
lens of always having to be perceived by others. Right,
And so when I stopped having to like express myself

(00:40):
all the time and like, you know, tell people what
I'm thinking or like you know, talk and like more
sort of was going in than was going out, Like
I'm learning more that I'm than I'm you know talking.
That was kind of like a weird dynamic shift because
I was like, oh, I've gone from like having millions
of people listen to what I say every week to
no one, and it's it's pretty lovely.

Speaker 1 (01:02):
I got to say, Hi, I'm Kate Langbrook. Welcome to
No Filter. Brooke Boney had one of the best gigs
in the world for years. We woke up with her
on morning TV. It was a job that changed her

(01:23):
life until one morning she made a decision that would
change her life again. She announced live on air on
the Today Show that she was done not just with
breakfast television, but with Australia. She was heading overseas to
study at Oxford, Oxford University. Now Brook has written a book,

(01:49):
and it covers so much that we had so much
to cover. Fame, the stalkers, yes, plural sport and associated
head injuries. I mean that'll make sense soon, her family
and her dogs. She opens up about fertility and the
reactions to being the first Indigenous woman on commercial TV

(02:11):
to diverse for some not diverse enough fathers. We also
had some fun in this chat. Brooke and I discuss
whether we're famous enough to get stopped in the supermarket,
the verdict being that we are not the perceived brave.
Conversations what it means to be called brave, and how
life at Oxford has given her ooh a new fancy vocabulary,

(02:37):
and we talk a lot about sweetness, the sweetness of
her family, in particular her mother, the sweetness we wish
the world had more of, and honestly, the refreshing sweetness
that I feel about Brooke herself. I hope you enjoy
this conversation as much as I did. Here is Brooke Bony.
Brooke Bony, Hello, welcome to No Filter.

Speaker 3 (03:00):
Oh thank you for having me.

Speaker 1 (03:02):
Now I have your book, which I have read twice.
You don't buy I don't believe you, because that's so kind.
That means I probably read it more than you have.

Speaker 3 (03:10):
You definitely have read it more than I have.

Speaker 2 (03:12):
But I do feel like I've read your book a
couple of times as well, because remember I did the
interview with you after you did it.

Speaker 1 (03:19):
Yes, Now, this is just kind of strange happening that
a few years ago at the Sydney Writers' Festival, I
was my book chow Bella had just come out, and
I did a session and you were my interviewer.

Speaker 2 (03:35):
Yes, And it's a weird experience when you read someone's
book that you sort of know publicly, and you know,
we kind of know each other anyway, yeah, probably, But
then you get to read what their thoughts are and
you feel like, oh, I really know this person.

Speaker 1 (03:50):
Now. Yes, it's true.

Speaker 3 (03:52):
It's lovely, isn't it. But it's a bit weird.

Speaker 1 (03:54):
Well, so your book, which is called All of It,
and I don't think there's ever been a more accurate
title for a book.

Speaker 3 (04:03):
Like this book.

Speaker 1 (04:06):
There's animals, dogs, beautiful dog, Oh, I love them so much, fertility, ah,
sport and heat injuries. It's just everything in igeneity.

Speaker 2 (04:27):
Because I think everyone thinks it's just like a straight
up memoir. And when I try to explain to someone
like no, no, no, it's just a bunch of essays that
I've written, the things that I think about all the time,
care about, and they're like, oh, like what, And I'm like, well, there's.

Speaker 3 (04:40):
One on dogs. There's one on egg freezing. Yes, there's
one on sports. I love cricket. Yes. But I think
we are all of.

Speaker 2 (04:50):
Those things, right, Like you know, if I was just
to focus on like one part of it, then that
wouldn't be all of it. It'd be some of it.

Speaker 1 (04:57):
No, And then you couldn't call it all of them.

Speaker 3 (04:59):
I'd have to change the title.

Speaker 1 (05:00):
However, you have come to the knowledge of most people
through breakfast Television, through your stint on Today as a
showbiz reporter, and in fact, the start of your book
is you contemplating quitting the show?

Speaker 3 (05:25):
Now?

Speaker 1 (05:25):
Did you write that in real time or did you
write that in retrospect and when was that?

Speaker 3 (05:32):
No, I wrote it in real time, so it was
this time last year, right, And it's so.

Speaker 2 (05:40):
It's so weird to think about now, because you know
when you make a big decision like that, and you
know that once once you make it, or once you
start telling people you can't go.

Speaker 1 (05:51):
Back, no, once it's once it's.

Speaker 2 (05:53):
Done, Yes, it's done. And so I remember thinking like,
is this really what I'm going to do? Am I
really going to do this?

Speaker 1 (06:02):
And who had you discussed it with? Because people probably
know this, but that is primo job that for many people,
Richard Wilkins, it's the pinnacle, do you know what I mean?

Speaker 3 (06:17):
So many people people would kill for that job.

Speaker 2 (06:20):
You probably have killed for that job at the cerferent
stages of the I think when you know that you've
done as much as what you can possibly do in
a job, and that you know you can sort of
see exactly what your life looks like for the next five, ten,
fifteen years, I think for me, I was like, there's
so many other things that I want to do.

Speaker 1 (06:41):
Well, because I think you always had this. Maybe I
think this more from having read your book. I don't
think this was probably apparent to viewers, but there was
always like a slight tension within you because being a
showbiz reporter is this and requires a certain sort of skills,
which you had in spades, but it also requires a

(07:06):
limitation of your interest.

Speaker 2 (07:09):
I think like before I was on Triple J, on
their breakfast show, I was in Parliament House as a
political reporter for SBS and ITV, and so then to
go I think, from that really serious news and then
go and work at ABC and be reporting on Indigenous affairs,
which is also just so serious and so heavy.

Speaker 3 (07:32):
Then to go and do entertainment.

Speaker 2 (07:35):
It was it felt like such a weird shift for me,
even though for other people it was like, oh, this
is a natural fit because she's just come from Triple J.

Speaker 3 (07:44):
Which is you know, the youth popular.

Speaker 2 (07:47):
Yeah, it's a popular show and you know it's all
about music and you know, there's a big focus on
entertainment as well. So it felt like for a lot
of people it was natural, but for me it felt
like deeply unnatural in some ways, like there was I
felt quite limited by doing that, and.

Speaker 1 (08:05):
I think and also intensely commercial, and none of your
indev prior to that point had been particularly commercial.

Speaker 3 (08:13):
Yeah, I think.

Speaker 2 (08:18):
For me that would have always had like an expiry
date because I felt like even though towards the end,
I was.

Speaker 3 (08:26):
Doing news as well, which I absolutely loved, and.

Speaker 2 (08:28):
It's such a great show, and it does stretch you
in terms of, you know, your technical abilities, you know
what it's like when you do live TV, and we
had to do it every day for like three and
a half hours, and it doesn't matter if there's something
really big happening, then you stay on air and you're
sort of you know, flying by the seat of your
pants or you know, like when we went to the Olympics.

Speaker 3 (08:46):
That's sort of broadcasting.

Speaker 2 (08:49):
People make it look easy, but technically it's so challenging
because there's so many different environmental factors. You're dealing with
the elements and with the people around you not knowing
what they're going to do. But also you have to
know everything.

Speaker 1 (09:02):
And you have to be able to repeat it without
repeating it exactly. You have to maintain the relay ships,
which for people who were getting up at four o'clock
in the morning, quarter past three, quarter past three.

Speaker 3 (09:16):
Yeah, it's hard. It's really hard.

Speaker 2 (09:18):
And so it's not that it wasn't technically challenging or
professionally challenging, because it was in lots of ways. But
I think my idea of myself was really quite different
from doing entertainment only.

Speaker 1 (09:31):
And what do you think drew their eye to you
in the first place? How did you get offered that job?

Speaker 3 (09:40):
I remember exactly what it was.

Speaker 2 (09:41):
So when I was on Triple J I did an
episode of back Roads and I went up to the
Tiwei Islands, and you know, it's that lovely show where
they go to the country.

Speaker 1 (09:53):
Beautiful, it's so good. I thought you might have gone
to Muscle Brook.

Speaker 3 (09:56):
No, I think we were.

Speaker 2 (09:58):
I think we were nearly going to go to somewhere
like Tamworth or somewhere.

Speaker 1 (10:01):
Around, which is where you're from.

Speaker 3 (10:04):
Up around that area, like in the Upper Hunter Valley.

Speaker 2 (10:07):
We went up to the Tewe's and they have like
this big pretty carnival and arts festival, and it's so beautiful,
it's heaven. And they have these these these trans women
and they're called Sister Girls, and they were they took
me out bush and we were eating these like gigantic slugs.

Speaker 3 (10:25):
Oh, they're supposed to be like.

Speaker 2 (10:28):
Medicinal and they just sort of like crack open and
these big pillars of wood and then pulled them out
and there you go, eat one of these and I
was like, oh, of course, is it like a witchity
grub but bigger and softer and squishier and without the ridges.
Without the ridges, it's almost like, yeah, like translucent and
it's like eats the wood. And so they pull it
out and then they just like got down the gullet

(10:49):
and I remember doing it and then just being like yeah,
and then being like, oh, that's so lovely, thank you,
because you do want to be disrespectful of people's And
my boss on today, Burlow, his parents were watching and
they were like, Oh, you've got to get this girl.

Speaker 3 (11:11):
To come across the Channel nine.

Speaker 2 (11:13):
We just absolutely love her, Like she was so funny
and you know she was doing all this stuff.

Speaker 1 (11:17):
And if she grabs and so you got the phone call, yeah,
And where were you at that point in your life?

Speaker 3 (11:26):
So like just personally, emotionally, spiritually.

Speaker 1 (11:30):
Anywhere, physically, all of it, all of it, all of them.

Speaker 3 (11:35):
I think I was ready to move on from Triple J.

Speaker 2 (11:37):
Anyway, I was kind of hoping to get a reprieve
from the early mornings and then like, so when I
got the call and I was like, oh, this means
my life is going to change, because it's one thing
to be famous, you know, on the Triple J audience
with the Triple Jen, it's still a huge amount of people.
It's probably about the same as the Tenay Show audience,

(11:58):
but it doesn't have all of the tabloid interests, Like
people don't really care about the lives of the hosts
in the same way that they do on the Today Show.

Speaker 1 (12:06):
No, that's true.

Speaker 2 (12:07):
You know, like you were you're a celebrity when you're
on that sho show. Yeah, like the Daily Mail will
write stories about you, and you know, it's a completely
different beast. And so I knew my life was going
to change. I didn't know exactly how. And so I
kind of spoke to my family and I spoke to
some friends, and you know, I was just sort of

(12:27):
getting advice from everyone, thinking like, is this what I
really want to do, because I've never been motivated really
by just by like getting more famous or like getting
more money or right.

Speaker 1 (12:37):
Well, I love that you say in the book, that
sweet spot of fame where you get invited to really
nice things, but you don't get annoyed at the supermarket.

Speaker 3 (12:46):
It's a sweet spot, isn't it.

Speaker 1 (12:47):
It is? But I don't know who has that sweet spot.

Speaker 3 (12:51):
I feel like we're probably in that sweet spot.

Speaker 1 (12:54):
Actually, I think I am.

Speaker 3 (12:55):
Do you get bothered at the supermarket?

Speaker 1 (12:57):
I get bothered by the supermarket? Actually, if I think it, maybe.

Speaker 3 (13:00):
You just want to be richer so then you don't
have to go to the supermarket.

Speaker 2 (13:03):
Your sweet spot is just absolute to have domination people
to work for you.

Speaker 1 (13:10):
But so you didn't end up in that sweet spot though,
did you.

Speaker 3 (13:14):
I feel like I can still easily go to a
supermarke like something. But I mean.

Speaker 1 (13:17):
Then when you were dressed into morning TV and it's attendant.
I mean, you know Karl Stefanovic.

Speaker 2 (13:29):
Like Carl probably can go to the supermarket without getting harrassed.
I don't think like, oh no, he'd just be getting
annoyed everywhere. Yeah, And like I think, I don't know.
You ask anyone who's famous, like even Taylor Swift. Have
you seen those clips that pop up of her and
she's like, don't feel sorry for me, but this is
awful years And I think that that's true, Like you
can't do anything normal like, you can't go to the
shop and just be like, I'm just going to pick

(13:50):
up some French linion dip and some jats on the
way home exactly.

Speaker 1 (13:53):
And that's why it's a curse when extreme fame happens
to people very young.

Speaker 2 (13:59):
Yes, it's unfair because there's no way on earth that
they could be that they could have the mental capacity
to deal with that sort of thing because you don't
get any human experience, You don't get experiences in the
way that anyone else does.

Speaker 3 (14:14):
No, it's isolating, it would be totally isolating.

Speaker 1 (14:16):
You know how they say the Queen, the Queen thinks
the world smells of chicken and fresh paint.

Speaker 3 (14:22):
What do they say that?

Speaker 1 (14:23):
Yeah, okay, it's very interesting. Well, because you know when
people are the Queen doesn't just pop up anywhere unannounced.

Speaker 3 (14:31):
Of course, I've always got fresh paint feet, it's.

Speaker 1 (14:33):
Always freshly everything's freshly painted. And they are never serve
chicken because it's the dish. Apparently the royals can eat.

Speaker 3 (14:41):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (14:41):
Right, So that's what happens to people who are thrusted
into intense fame at any stage really, but particularly young
that there's it's got a real atrophye quality.

Speaker 2 (14:53):
I think that's why they always try to like sort
of become a bit reclusive and try to keep their
circle small and stuff like that. Right, like they try
to sort of take it back, but you can't take
it back.

Speaker 1 (15:02):
No, you can't take it back.

Speaker 3 (15:03):
But then you move to Oxford.

Speaker 1 (15:04):
Well, who would do that?

Speaker 3 (15:06):
Who would do that? That's been insane?

Speaker 1 (15:08):
Who who did you tell first? From the on air team?
Was it were you on with Allie Langdon Stefanovic? Who
was there in yours?

Speaker 2 (15:19):
I think oh, I'd already told Ali while I was
applying she's one of my best friends, like I just
I absolutely adore her and.

Speaker 1 (15:26):
Everyone loves her.

Speaker 3 (15:27):
Oh, she's just she's the best.

Speaker 2 (15:30):
And then I told Carl and Sarah h And obviously,
like when you start telling people, we're like, oh no,
this is going to get out because you feel sort
of nervous about what if they someone whover hears them
talking to someone you know, like they're not even gossiping,
but maybe they're telling their partner. Like Brooke told me
this today. You know what, you don't know. You just
don't know who's gonna hear what. So as soon as

(15:51):
you start telling people we get so nervous, so so nervous.

Speaker 3 (15:55):
So I told my agent and then I told my boss.

Speaker 2 (15:58):
You know, I think every time I went to tell someone,
I feel like they would just assume, like in their
mind they were like, she's pregnant.

Speaker 3 (16:05):
Because if a woman comes to you and they're like,
can you just sit down, I've got some big news. Yeah,
of course they're going to be like.

Speaker 1 (16:11):
Oh, yeah, you know, it's either cancer or pregnant.

Speaker 2 (16:16):
Exactly exactly, it's not anything else. It's never I'm going
to Oxford.

Speaker 1 (16:21):
And also because people, like we said before, in this
industry are not used to people leaving. Like it was
like when I left to go live in Italy. Yes, yeah,
people were like, what how could you leave that job?
People only ever lose the job because they die or

(16:43):
they get pushed down the stairs by someone who wants
their job.

Speaker 3 (16:46):
Do you know what I mean?

Speaker 1 (16:47):
Like, people just don't walk away.

Speaker 3 (16:49):
And yet you.

Speaker 1 (16:51):
Made that decision. And I think, having read your book,
that it's all tied up with who you are, who
your people are, who your family are, what the expectations are,
and the opportunity that you see that can be afforded

(17:12):
to you that have been hard one. Am I overthinking it?

Speaker 2 (17:18):
No, no, no, I think you're right, and I think
you're like, you can have all of the money in
the world, Like you could stay in that job and
you know, have a really amazing life and be so
lucky because it's such an incredible job even though the
hours are hard, but you only get one life, like you.

Speaker 1 (17:37):
I'm never going to keep saying I mean, we don't know,
but we do have to work off it.

Speaker 3 (17:41):
We have to work off that assumption because we don't
really know.

Speaker 2 (17:44):
Yes, like I'm only ever going to be thirty seven once,
before I know it, I'm going to be forty, and
then I'll be forty five.

Speaker 3 (17:52):
And time goes so quickly. And I just.

Speaker 2 (17:55):
Knew that if I didn't do something like this now,
then I never ever would and I would have regretted it.
I would have regretted it, not just because it's an
amazing experience to go over there, but to prove to
myself that I could do it and to stretch myself
like that.

Speaker 3 (18:13):
It's such a gift to be able to indulge in
thinking that it's amazing.

Speaker 2 (18:19):
And like to learn in the you know, the best
university in the world and to think about things in
a way that I've never thought about them before. It's
to me, like the pain of not doing that is
greater than the pain of leaving. And I think once
the balance tips like that, and like there would be
moments where I would be laying in bed at night

(18:42):
thinking like I've got to do this. If I don't
do this, I'm going to be filled with regret, like
it's going to make me sad. If not now, then
in ten years time or twenty years time.

Speaker 3 (18:52):
There's a but.

Speaker 1 (18:53):
You don't come to us just as yourself or do
you have sixty five thousand years behind you? And you
were the first I didn't realize this, the first Indigenous
woman in commercial sull television in.

Speaker 2 (19:12):
That role, yeah, and that sort of substantial role, the
first one on Breakfast TV. Man or woman, Yeah, like
Stan had man or woman, Stan had Tony Armstrong. I
love Tony, but like Stan Grant had been on Channel
seven in the nineties and early noughties, but it hadn't

(19:33):
really been anyone else, Like Norelda had done Perth and
I think MALANDERI maybe had done some stuff in Darwin,
but in terms of like one of.

Speaker 3 (19:42):
Those big TV gigs.

Speaker 2 (19:45):
Yeah, like it hadn't really been done before, and it
feels weird to say now because then after that, you know,
they all kind of did it, Like then Norella got
her job and Tony got his job, and it sort
of seemed like a really normal thing to do, as
it should be.

Speaker 1 (19:58):
But when you started, was that so weird? A lot
of the focus of attention on you.

Speaker 2 (20:03):
Yeah, right, it was this weird moment where everyone was like, oh,
what are they doing?

Speaker 1 (20:08):
Really?

Speaker 2 (20:10):
It was like, on one hand, people were like, oh,
she's not really black, look at her.

Speaker 3 (20:14):
Look she's just a bit caramel.

Speaker 2 (20:15):
But then on the other hand, they were like, what
are they doing putting a blackfither onto here? You know, like, oh,
this is a diversity high Like, I don't know, people
had a very strange reaction to it.

Speaker 1 (20:26):
And what was your reaction to their reaction?

Speaker 3 (20:31):
I knew it would be.

Speaker 2 (20:32):
Like a big deal, but I just kind of didn't
understand how big of a deal it was going to be.
And you know, there's always so much of a fuss
around like who's going to be on the Today Show and.

Speaker 3 (20:44):
Yees, what they're going to be doing, and yes, you.

Speaker 2 (20:46):
Know who's been sacked and who's been hired and you
know who's feuding with her? Yeah, exactly, Like people are
a bit obsessed with it and it's weird.

Speaker 3 (20:55):
I don't know why we are like that with Breakfast TV.
What do you think it is? I don't know. I
don't know.

Speaker 1 (21:01):
Television's got it. You know my backgrounds in breakfast radio.
Predominantly there's something about, particularly the Today Show, even if
it's not necessarily winning the ratings, it's always the subject
of much discussion. I don't use I do not lie,

(21:24):
but you're right, it really is.

Speaker 3 (21:26):
Like we always know what's going on with the hosts.

Speaker 2 (21:28):
Yes, always, like if someone's getting engaged or if someone's well.

Speaker 1 (21:31):
I remember you said even before you were a part
of the show, and you knew when you know, Carl
and Jazz got in games.

Speaker 3 (21:38):
Yeah, and I remember yeah.

Speaker 2 (21:41):
And I remember when I was sitting in Parliament House
in the afternoon and I saw a tweet from Lisa
talking about.

Speaker 3 (21:49):
About leaving. So like all of these things, like you
you sort of know about the show.

Speaker 2 (21:55):
You know so much about the show even before you're
on it, and then when you're on it, you're like,
oh my gosh. Yeah, it's so weird, and people always
want to note gossip about it, like they think that
you're going to what's he like? And so I always
used to joke to and I didn't actually say this
to anyone, but I used to say to him, Oh,
every time someone asks me what you're like, I tell
them that.

Speaker 3 (22:14):
You've got bo And.

Speaker 1 (22:17):
Well they did wear the same suit for a year,
so maybe I was sticking.

Speaker 3 (22:20):
Who knows.

Speaker 1 (22:21):
But then when you started the job and you said
you told your family, they must have been extremely excited.

Speaker 3 (22:29):
Oh they were. They were just thrilled. I think.

Speaker 2 (22:35):
It's really hard to comprehend how big of a deal
it is until it happens, and then they were like, wow.

Speaker 3 (22:41):
My god.

Speaker 1 (22:45):
Coming up after this break, Brook tells me about her family,
how proud her parents are of her career and not
just hers, all her siblings, and the hard life her
mother has had. Don't go anywhere, because I think when
you have a child, or the parents of children who

(23:07):
end up going into show busy sun, I think they
never really have any faith in us. If we haven't
come with a pedigree, if we're not net bow babies
or whatever. They always just struck by how precarious it
is as a profession. So when you actually do something
that they genuinely know and that means something to them,

(23:29):
that is that's a mind meld for them.

Speaker 3 (23:33):
I know.

Speaker 2 (23:33):
But I think my mum and my family felt proud
every time I did something, Like I remember I worked
on Corey Radio, the Aboriginal community radio station in Sydney,
and they were super proud then, Like they used to
come into the studio and like turn the radio on
and like listen and stuff. And then when I got
a cadet ship at the airBC, they was super proud

(23:55):
of that. And then when I was on NATIV when
it launched as a freeway channel in twenty twelve, they
were super proud of that. Like every time, I think
it's been one of those things that felt so unlikely
and so huge that yeah, they've been super excited each time.
I remember Mum said to me once because I was like, Mum,
stops sharing stuff. It's so embarrassing. She's sharing all this

(24:19):
stuff on Facebook all the time about like not just me,
but my other brothers and sisters. And she's like, I
just want everyone to know how good my kids are.
Like she's so proud like embarrassingly proud. I love that,
but like I don't know, I know, stop bragging, mom,
I don't.

Speaker 1 (24:36):
Know, Like you know, really that's parental currency they're allowed
to out there, isn't it then social currency as well?

Speaker 3 (24:44):
And also I.

Speaker 1 (24:44):
Think particularly so there's five kids in your family, and
I gather, and you don't go into it in sort
of any graphic detail, but I gather that things were
not always easy for your mother.

Speaker 3 (24:57):
No, yeah, she's she has had a roughtaurant.

Speaker 1 (25:01):
And how how is your familial structure like with the
other kids.

Speaker 2 (25:06):
Oh, it's so good. We're into we're all really really close.
So they've got their own kids now, right, and moms
around them all the time, like all the time. She's
always like picking them up from school or doing like
little sort of craft activities with them, or like baking
cookies or whatever. It's so sweet when you see your

(25:29):
parents become grandparents because it's like they like finally figured
out like exactly like the perfect way to be like
a sweet like a TV show parent or a movie parent.

Speaker 1 (25:40):
And I love that you use the word sweet because
there's a passage in your book where you talk about
your mom and it's quite it's so eloquent and sort
of heart rending, and you use the expression sweetness and
I think, let me see if I can find it.

(26:02):
At some point, my mum's sweetness and her ability to
direct it towards her children faded. I remember her screaming
down the phone one day when my stepdad was in jail,
and when he asked her what happened to the lovely
girl he'd met, she said that he'd killed her. I
think that's true. He beat and berated the sweetness out

(26:25):
of her and made her harder than she was ever
supposed to be.

Speaker 2 (26:31):
Gosh, it's so hard hearing that back. It's so weird
when you write things that are so deeply personal and
you forget that everyone's going to read them. I think,
like one thing that I feel so strongly about in
terms of like sweetness and joy and levity and why

(26:51):
never shy away from being like bubbly or silly or
having fun, is that like us, there are so many
awful and difficult things that happened in the world at
any one time that you could just like jump into
the void if you wanted to. And it's worse when
you're a black woman because we're exposed to more of
it more often.

Speaker 3 (27:09):
The statistics tell us that.

Speaker 2 (27:11):
And so I think, like joy and sweetness and not
succumbing to that, you know, being harder. I guess you'd
say the same about breakfast TV, Like it's hard. It's
really hard work when you're you know, in the public
eye all the time, and you know, sometimes the general
public are saying mean things to you or about you,

(27:32):
or like the tabloids are or whatever.

Speaker 1 (27:33):
I think, just process in the news, which is heavy.

Speaker 3 (27:36):
It's heavy. I think making a conscious decision to not
succumb to that is It's hard.

Speaker 2 (27:47):
It's a choice, you know, like any one of us
could just be like, oh well, woe is me?

Speaker 3 (27:53):
Like you know, I don't.

Speaker 2 (27:55):
Things are too hard, you know, like this is the
world is terrible and filled with horror. But to be
able to hang on to sweetness in spite of it is.

Speaker 3 (28:06):
I think I'll just always try to do that.

Speaker 1 (28:08):
You talk about and it's quite a bit in your book,
and it's such it's it is of itself a very
sweet way well to convey that element.

Speaker 3 (28:18):
Can I tell you something?

Speaker 1 (28:19):
Please tell me anything?

Speaker 2 (28:21):
Filter I I listened to a podcast that my friend
asked me to go on maybe like four or five
years ago during COVID, and we said something and I
was like, oh, that's a bit dicey, like I hope
they cut that bit out. And so I went back
and listened to it and like listening back to my
own way of like speaking and talking. In my mind,

(28:43):
I was like tough and brave and strong. And then
when I listened back to it, I was like, oh
my god, I'm so like soft and sweet like the
way that I speak. I didn't realize that. I didn't
know because I don't watch my things back. I don't
listen to myself like that. I couldn't imagine anything worse.
But I had to this time, and I was like,
is that what I sound like? Oh my gosh, I

(29:06):
sound so like vulnerable or like soft. I didn't realize.

Speaker 1 (29:11):
That well, you know.

Speaker 3 (29:12):
So then once I had that moment, I was like, oh, no,
I am very sweet.

Speaker 1 (29:15):
And it's like a touchstone, isn't it that that is
what you always want to stay connected to in yourself.
I think, particularly for women, not that men can also
be sweet, but it's a it's a gentler attribute.

Speaker 2 (29:30):
I think it's a nicer way of being like because
you're not doing it. I mean, I guess you are
doing it in response to things, but it's I don't know,
like I think hardness or like.

Speaker 3 (29:44):
You know, carrying something that's like heavy with you.

Speaker 2 (29:47):
It's like, you know, you're sort of letting the world
win a little bit, or like letting.

Speaker 3 (29:51):
The worst of things win.

Speaker 2 (29:52):
Yes, but if you like tried desperately to sort of
cling to that, it's it's sort of like, well, you
know you're not winning today.

Speaker 1 (30:01):
Do you think there was a period in your life
in which you weren't as successful in Rye sing above that,
I think.

Speaker 2 (30:11):
No, To be honest, I think like if it was
like if I didn't have to have that experience personally,
because I'd witnessed it so closely, you know, like I'd
seen it firsthand, and so it wasn't like I had
to go through it to learn the lesson. It was
like I watched other people go through it and just
sort of witnessed all of these women around me who
have to be tougher to in order to be able
to survive.

Speaker 1 (30:31):
So that you don't have to be yes, serially.

Speaker 3 (30:34):
Yes, exactly, it's almost like a favor to them isn't.

Speaker 1 (30:36):
It, Yes, to live the life. Yeah, that they didn't
necessarily get to live.

Speaker 3 (30:41):
Yes, exactly.

Speaker 2 (30:42):
And like, when you think about it, I'm part of
the generation, the first generation of women who's been able
to do things like hold on to my sweetness, have
my own credit card, which probably isn't a great decision sometimes,
well it live by myself or travel overseas and let
you know, choose to leave a career and go and
study in Oxford. Like women have never been able to

(31:03):
do this sort of thing before, to have that sort
of autonomy and make decisions about exactly how they want
to be in the world and who they want to be.

Speaker 1 (31:10):
Well, this takes me to another one of your Revelations meditations,
which is fertility. That you talk about freezing your eggs
and that whole the decisions leading up to it, the
deciding to do it was what was your thought process

(31:36):
about sharing that in the book and also what was
your process in life that you just kind of are
very prosaic about it.

Speaker 2 (31:46):
I think that I didn't realize that it was such
a brief thing to talk about, to be honest, Like
it just sort of felt like, oh no, like, if
I have the resources and the wherewithal to do it,
then I should because it just sort of makes sense
for me right now. But then I didn't kind of realize,
like sometimes I don't know, like I feel like in
some ways I'm like very socially smart, but then in

(32:06):
other ways, I'm like, oh, that's the inference from that,
And so like after a while, I was like, oh,
that means that like I'm failing in some other way,
Like it's it makes it more obvious to others that
are yearning for this thing.

Speaker 1 (32:18):
And that you don't have the relationship and that yes,
maybe like a hunger for something.

Speaker 2 (32:22):
That's exactly like I didn't kind of put that together
until afterwards, and then I was like, oh my gosh,
people I think I'm some desperate loser who can't get
a boyfriend.

Speaker 3 (32:32):
I didn't realize.

Speaker 2 (32:34):
That's that's why they were like, Oh my god, you're
so brave to admit you're a desperate loser I can't
get a boyfriend.

Speaker 3 (32:40):
It's like, no, I.

Speaker 2 (32:41):
Just wanted to be able to have more choice, you know,
like I wanted to be able to make the decision
for myself. And I really still like I don't want
to miss out on motherhood. Like I know, one thing
like for sure is that, like I just love being
around babies and around children, And there is nothing that
gives me more joy or makes me feel more like

(33:02):
myself than when I'm around my nieces and nephews. It
doesn't matter if I was like invited to the oscars
or like even like mimulation ceremony in Oxford, which I was,
like I'd thought about for years and years and years,
none of that even it doesn't come close to being
around them. And so like, I really hope that I
get to do it, like I desperately hope that I do.

Speaker 1 (33:24):
But well, you've given yourself that option.

Speaker 3 (33:25):
I've given myself the option.

Speaker 1 (33:27):
But is there also a romance? You don't need to
give me any details. Just tell me everything.

Speaker 3 (33:32):
Just tell me it's every single thing.

Speaker 2 (33:34):
No, No, I'm not romantically involved at the moment.

Speaker 1 (33:39):
But you've been in Oxford and all those highly attractive english.

Speaker 3 (33:44):
Men, so do you know.

Speaker 2 (33:45):
No, But this is the funny thing about Oxford because
I think everyone thinks, oh, everyone's there's a bunch of nerds,
like you know, everyone's got like glasses and they're like
trying to figure out you know, some sort of mathematical problem.
Be really posh. Some of them are really posh. It's
very funny. Actually, some of them are like, oh you're
from the colonies.

Speaker 3 (34:05):
There's that sort of English person there who was just
so weird.

Speaker 2 (34:07):
Like I remember the first I went to this one
of the old oldest scholargs is this one called Ballyol
and they're having a party.

Speaker 3 (34:15):
My friend is at that college, so I.

Speaker 2 (34:16):
Went and this English guy comes over to me and
he's like, oh, I hear from one of the colonies,
like old.

Speaker 3 (34:23):
Timey voices, And I was like, what are you talking about?

Speaker 1 (34:28):
Is he flirting or.

Speaker 2 (34:29):
Is In hindsight I think maybe he was flirting, because
why would you say that?

Speaker 3 (34:33):
It's so weird.

Speaker 2 (34:34):
And then Kathy told me to say to them a.

Speaker 1 (34:38):
Pan It would have been a part.

Speaker 3 (34:40):
Yes loves a pun.

Speaker 2 (34:43):
She said, Oh, if someone comes to you and says
like mean things about Australia or being from Australia, you
should say to them, oh, well, you know, my my
mom said to me that to be careful when I
go to England, because isn't that where all the convicts
came from?

Speaker 1 (34:55):
Ha. So have you applaied it?

Speaker 3 (34:58):
Of course I have and Atlanta. So well, yes, it's
very good, very good. That is quite good. I'm like, okay, like,
can you stop talking?

Speaker 1 (35:08):
Tell me much to my course so we can rubvish you.

Speaker 3 (35:11):
I'm want to read you some poetry.

Speaker 1 (35:13):
Yes, So you're in Oxford. How long have you been there?

Speaker 3 (35:17):
Now? So I've been there since September and you're studying
a master's of public policy.

Speaker 1 (35:24):
Whatever the hell that is? So what is that?

Speaker 2 (35:26):
So it's basically it's like all about good governance and
like good policy making, and it's like a factory for politicians.
I think I don't want to be a politician. No,
I'm one hundred. I swear, I swear to you.

Speaker 3 (35:41):
I don't.

Speaker 1 (35:42):
I know you don't don't. I'm like, you swear in
nice listen to me.

Speaker 3 (35:47):
Are you sure? No?

Speaker 1 (35:49):
Sure? The persecute to us at some point in the future,
like politicians like to do.

Speaker 3 (35:53):
No, I'm not. I don't have any intentions. I don't
have any plans.

Speaker 2 (35:57):
I mean, who knows, Maybe in like twenty years I'll
be like, Okay, yes I do want to do that,
but right now I couldn't think of anything worse than
doing that, because it's the same thing that the Today
show is right where you like, you're really public facing
and there's lots of.

Speaker 3 (36:12):
Scrutiny, and you know, I don't want to I don't
want to do that.

Speaker 1 (36:16):
But what what what do you do? I mean, I
guess it's you don't need to subscribe to the notion
that education is for a purpose. But what do you
do with that degree?

Speaker 3 (36:28):
I guess we'll find out. I mean, you don't have
any idea, you don't have any plans. Did you choose it?

Speaker 2 (36:35):
A couple of my friends had done it, and I
really liked the look of the course, So, you know,
the things that I've been learning about like have been incredible.
The first term was like political philosophy economics, and then
this term is like political science and like law. So wow,
it's pretty incredible. Like the things that I've been able

(36:57):
to learn while I've been there, I mean, it's beyond
my wildest imagination. Who knew that I would love economics?

Speaker 1 (37:06):
Not me?

Speaker 2 (37:07):
No, or like, you know, there's this one guy who
I had a lecture from Professor Dita Helm and he
talks about climate change or sustainability, and I was like,
I should probably learn more about this because I don't
really know much, but everyone talks about it all the
yam and like I kind of know, I get the
gist of it, and he starts talking about it in
a way that I completely understand and ties it in

(37:29):
with like economic sustainability, so like you know, paying down
debt and tying it to all of these other ideas
about you know, the way that we should tax carbon
or shouldn't tax carbon, or whether or not it's effective.
And I just feel so lucky or hearing like another
professor talk about like the moral justifications for war and

(37:50):
like what stands up in a criminal court and whether
international criminal courts are even you know, useful or effective.
And you know, in the current context, it feels like
such a gift to be able to contextualize everything that's
going on and say like, Okay, this is where this
fits in. And you know, I feel comfortable about this
kind of populism, but actually it's a reaction to these

(38:13):
economic events and this kind of migration and these kind
of conflicts and societal yeah, and so it's sort of
like it's you know, if I went over there thinking like,
oh no, the world's in such a difficult place at
the moment. Nobody wants to understand each other. Like now
I have so much more clarity around why people behave

(38:33):
the way they do when it comes to voting, or
like their economic behavior or you know, even I had
to do a behavioral science subject.

Speaker 3 (38:43):
What's that?

Speaker 2 (38:44):
So like why people behave the way the way they do?
And so like you know, the way that people will
make trade offs for you know, getting something now as
opposed to getting something in the future, So.

Speaker 1 (38:55):
Then gratification is that exactly?

Speaker 2 (38:57):
And like why it's so difficult for us to implement
effective climate change policy or indigenous policy because people can't
see the benefit of it for like twenty years, so
they're like, well, I don't want to pay for that
now to huge electricity bills. I'm not even going to
see the benefit of this. Like when something's intangible, it's
really hard to get people.

Speaker 3 (39:14):
To commit to it.

Speaker 2 (39:16):
It's being able to understand people in that way when
it feels like, you know, so many people are making
decisions that are really self interested.

Speaker 3 (39:26):
It's a gift, Yes.

Speaker 1 (39:28):
It's a gift. Hey, how much does it cost to
study at Oxford?

Speaker 3 (39:31):
A lot?

Speaker 1 (39:32):
Like I knew it would be a lot.

Speaker 3 (39:33):
It's a lot of money. It's such a privilege.

Speaker 1 (39:35):
And did you had you always been like when you
were doing the Today Show, once you had the realization
where you always like, that's what you were saving up
to be able to do, That's what I.

Speaker 3 (39:45):
Was working towards.

Speaker 2 (39:46):
And I got a scholarship from Aurora, so I got
the Charlie Perkins che Evening Scholarship, and so that that's
just so wonderful, like.

Speaker 1 (39:54):
And does that cover you for the three years at
Hell year one year?

Speaker 2 (39:59):
And actually I will give a shout out to the
other woman who's doing it with me. So there's another
Aboriginal woman doing the same course. She's from Darwin. Her
name's Marlin And honestly, like, I'm just endlessly just inspired
by her. And she's incredible. So her background is in
some sort of climate work.

Speaker 3 (40:20):
I don't know exactly what.

Speaker 2 (40:22):
Sorry, sorry much, but she's she's incredible. Like to have
two Aboriginal women in this extremely prestigious course and her
like her background means that she brings like, you know,
all of this knowledge to the course that we wouldn't
have otherwise had.

Speaker 1 (40:38):
What do the poems make of that of two Aboriginal
women at Oxford or did they not have a concept
of it.

Speaker 2 (40:45):
I think like in our imagination, Australia is a lot
bigger than what.

Speaker 3 (40:48):
It is in their imagination.

Speaker 2 (40:52):
So it's like one of like a lot of countries
that they commonized and have that experience with. Right, So
I think like they have a genuine affection for us,
don't get me wrong.

Speaker 1 (41:03):
Yes, yes, but it's it's.

Speaker 2 (41:06):
Not as like omnipresent as they are to us. Think
about them more than they think about us.

Speaker 1 (41:11):
Do they understand aboriginality.

Speaker 2 (41:14):
They understand aboriginality, but only to the extent that, like
popular culture in an international context would dictate, So like
what they would see in movies or postcards or ads
or whatever, you know, like it it's not nuanced and
it's not it's not exactly right as being over there
you feel like, I don't know, it's sort of like
when you get really proud of your hometown when you

(41:35):
leave it, but when you live there, you're like.

Speaker 3 (41:37):
Oh, I hate this place. Oh this place, like it's
so limiting.

Speaker 2 (41:41):
Like I remember when I left a Muscle Brook and
I was like, gosh, I feel so stifled here.

Speaker 3 (41:46):
And now I just have so much love for I
love going back there. So much.

Speaker 2 (41:50):
It's like not that I ever had that really uncomfortable
relationship with Australia, but when you leave, you feel like
weirdly patriotic, like and I talk about Australian fruit and
vegetables honestly, like I'm describing like a pre depression era
like fruit tree in my grandmother's yard. Like because the country, well,

(42:10):
England is so small, but the population is huge, so
they don't have any of their own fruit and veggies
grown locally. And obviously Australia is so big and we
have those rules around not importing things.

Speaker 3 (42:19):
So our fruit and.

Speaker 2 (42:20):
Veggies are so beautiful, so so beautiful compared to other countries.

Speaker 1 (42:25):
Do you think the distance And like you said, when
you come from somewhere, it's you know, familiarity breeds contempt
that when you've come back into the Australian landscape after
this period away, that's partly also why you love it.

Speaker 2 (42:42):
There's a couple of things, because I think the oppressive
winter in the UK is something and I know, like
everyone talks about the weather, but when you're there, it's
like a character in your life, Like it is like
a weird omnipresent Leeden's it's so heavy. Like I remember
the first time that the sunset at like three point thirty.

(43:04):
This is in November, so what's that four or five
months ago? And I was sitting there in the kitchen
at my friend's house, typing away doing some study and
I was like, oh, it's got to be like eight o'clock.

Speaker 3 (43:15):
And I looked at my phone.

Speaker 2 (43:16):
It was four point thirty in the afternoon, and I
felt a wave of claustrophobia or like just darkness come
over me. To think it was like that feeling where
you can't see the horizon or you can't.

Speaker 3 (43:27):
See like the leak.

Speaker 1 (43:29):
It was so heavy, and I was like, this is
what they're talking about seasonal adjustment disorders.

Speaker 3 (43:34):
Yes, SAD. Sad's real.

Speaker 2 (43:36):
And the cold, like I've never experienced anything like that
for that extended period, and so like every time I
left the house it felt like I was going on
a mission to Mordoor because you have to like cover
yourself up into every single place.

Speaker 3 (43:49):
It's the ease of getting around.

Speaker 2 (43:52):
Or living like that, I think is something that's lost
on us as Australians, Like I think that's why we're
so happy and so generally carefree.

Speaker 3 (43:59):
Andy and the.

Speaker 2 (44:00):
Vitamin D because life is just so easy here compared
to over there, because if you have to be prepared
or you will suffer.

Speaker 1 (44:08):
Now, you know, that's a very interesting thing to hear
now in a climate in which Australians don't feel like
life is easy here compared to how it was. But
you are a messenger from a.

Speaker 3 (44:21):
Broad an angel.

Speaker 1 (44:25):
Yeah, that's a prophet who's return from.

Speaker 3 (44:30):
Far away land.

Speaker 2 (44:31):
Yes, yes, with messages of hope.

Speaker 3 (44:33):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (44:35):
It's really expensive over there too. It's so much more
expensive than you like. It's you can't do anything. There's
no you can't go to the movies or like go
and have a sauna or whatever. It's so prohibitively expensive
unless you find a deal or like you can get
some sort of secret way. You have to work while
you're there, No, you can't work.

Speaker 3 (44:54):
So I think you can if you get like special permission.

Speaker 2 (44:57):
But like, the sole focus while you're at Oxford has
to be academia.

Speaker 1 (45:01):
Well you've certainly done that. You wowed me with your
high for Luton academic talk. Did I really a little bit?
I was like, I bet you didn't talk like that
to Jason Momoa.

Speaker 3 (45:14):
We definitely talked about economics.

Speaker 1 (45:18):
That's not all of my conversation with Brooke Boney coming up,
we talk about how animals make the world better and
why she is so interested in sport. Hey, have you
touched base with the Today Family?

Speaker 3 (45:40):
Yes, I've called them.

Speaker 2 (45:41):
I tried to get Carl, but he's on holidays because.

Speaker 3 (45:46):
They work so hard.

Speaker 1 (45:47):
It's true, but a lot of people work hard, and
don't get that's true.

Speaker 2 (45:51):
That is true for a lot of people work hard.
Then I spoke to Sarah yesterday, and you get so.

Speaker 3 (45:56):
Close when you're working. You would know from the breakfast.

Speaker 1 (45:59):
Radio intimacy because you're peaceable, you wake up with it's
exactly right and then and that's why it's important that
you like the people. You wake up with the chemistry song. Yes,
and also if things start to go awry from early mornings,
then they really go off the skids and it.

Speaker 2 (46:18):
Goes off quickly and you can't do anything about it.
I think, well, I've never seen it happen, but I mean.

Speaker 1 (46:25):
But we do know, we know, we're historically it's happened,
and I've seen it in a lot of breakfast radio shows.

Speaker 2 (46:30):
It's the relationships are so so important and you get
so close because you go through everything together. So like
if you're I don't know, like if your mum's sick
or your sister's going through something, or you know you're
going through a breakup or you know you're moving house
or whatever, you all know about it.

Speaker 3 (46:47):
You're all sort of in it together.

Speaker 2 (46:49):
It's like it's the most intimate sort of professional relationship
that you would ever have.

Speaker 3 (46:53):
I think that those breakfast hours.

Speaker 1 (46:56):
And do you miss the camaraderie of that, Yes.

Speaker 3 (46:59):
I do, because I know I'll never have a job
like that again.

Speaker 1 (47:03):
What do you think your next rubblery?

Speaker 2 (47:05):
I don't know. I feel like I promise I'm not
keeping like a secret, and I'm going to, like, you know,
in a few weeks be like surprise.

Speaker 3 (47:11):
This is my new gig. You assume me on a
poster going like this, that's not going to happen. I
don't know.

Speaker 1 (47:16):
Brook Bony's Prime Minister. Everybody, Oh my.

Speaker 2 (47:19):
Gosh, yeah, no, no, no, no, I don't know what
it's going to be. I think this is so uncomfortable,
but I think I'm just going to see what happens.

Speaker 3 (47:28):
So I finish in September, and I can't I.

Speaker 2 (47:31):
Mean like, maybe someone will offer me a job and
it'll be amazing and it'll be exactly what I want.
Or maybe I'll stay over there and do more study,
or maybe.

Speaker 1 (47:41):
Can I have a dog if you stay over there?

Speaker 3 (47:44):
A dog? Or both of my dogs died? I know,
don't you feel? But that was do you know how
to dream about the last night? I still dream about them,
Jimmy and Ruben. Yeah, I don't know.

Speaker 2 (47:56):
Pugs both pugs, which is the most impractical breed. But
can I just say, in my defense, they can't breathe, they're.

Speaker 3 (48:04):
So they get so fat.

Speaker 1 (48:06):
That was my pug impersonation. Look you had to look
away then, too.

Speaker 3 (48:10):
That's just too much. It was so accurate.

Speaker 2 (48:13):
I feel like, it's so weird that they never really
leave you when you have a dog like that, like
that sort.

Speaker 1 (48:20):
Of So I just got we just got a dog
for the first time, my first dog ever.

Speaker 3 (48:25):
Do you love it so much?

Speaker 1 (48:27):
I love him more than I ever thought I would.

Speaker 3 (48:30):
It's weird, isn't it.

Speaker 1 (48:31):
It was like when I had children, Because I'd never
been particularly maternal, I was always like, how will I be?
And then from the moment I held my first child,
I said to Peter, we were still in the hospital.
I said, let's do it again, right, just new, just
knew the dog is like that. But I think all
the time, and so when I read your love letter

(48:55):
to your boys, and then when you had to put
him down, put Jimmy down after because Reuben had gone already,
it was so soul rending because now even the Bearski
our dog is only two or whatever, you project yourself

(49:17):
forward every time you see a dog or you see
a story about a dog, and I totally understand you
when you talk about the grief of it, like proper grief.

Speaker 2 (49:31):
So I feel like every time I go back and
read that one, that one affects me more than nearly
any of the others. It makes me sob because I think,
like if you've never had that sort of really secure,
unconditional love and you get a dog and it's yours,

(49:52):
when it's gone, it's it's heartbreaking, like there's nothing that
can fill the void, and like beyond that, like death
just doesn't make any sense to me at all, because
I don't understand how something can exist one day and
then not the next, Like it would be like if
this table just vaporized, because that's essentially what happens, Like

(50:16):
not that their physical bodies do that, but everything that.

Speaker 3 (50:18):
Makes them them them does that.

Speaker 1 (50:21):
And that because when when they or someone you love
is alive, they're so alive, they're so alive, and then
there's suddenly not then what.

Speaker 3 (50:30):
Like what happens?

Speaker 2 (50:31):
Like that doesn't make any sense, like in a scientific way,
it doesn't make sense to me, Like where does that go?

Speaker 3 (50:37):
What is that?

Speaker 1 (50:38):
You need to do a class on this at Oxford
So they'd be running some sort of class.

Speaker 3 (50:43):
There would one hundred percent be some sort of thing
about life, but it really is.

Speaker 1 (50:47):
You know, you were saying to be loved in that
accepting sort of way. That is one half of it.
But I also think that dogs activate in us our
own goodness because of their extreme trust of us, Like
when are you ever trusted like that?

Speaker 3 (51:09):
Life? I think.

Speaker 2 (51:14):
They like it's just such a safe way to pour
your love out right, like every other experience that you
have of love, whether it's like your parents or your
partner or I think maybe your kids is different.

Speaker 3 (51:25):
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (51:26):
It's like it's one of those things where you can
pour so much of yourself into it because you know
there is like no risk. You can be as vulnerable
as you want, because there's no risk that they're going
to do something with your love that's like a betrayal,
or that they're unworthy of it, or like you'll discover
that you know that they're undeserving.

Speaker 3 (51:48):
It's it's so pure, it's so so pure.

Speaker 1 (51:53):
I think before I had experienced it, I think I was.

Speaker 3 (51:57):
A bit I know. That's why I was embarrassed about it.

Speaker 2 (52:02):
Like I was so embarrassed about being so sad because
I was like, people are going.

Speaker 3 (52:05):
To think I'm insane?

Speaker 2 (52:09):
Who when to We first started getting really old, like
after Reuben had passed away, and Mum was like, why
don't you get one of those brands right and you
can push him around the park, like at least you
can still go down, And.

Speaker 3 (52:22):
I'm like, Mum, people are going to think I'm insane.
Imagine if you saw a woman pushing a freaking dog
around in a pream.

Speaker 1 (52:30):
You see it now, it's more common now, But this
was like we have all gone insane because.

Speaker 2 (52:34):
We have all lost the plot. There's nothing, there are
no rules anymore. Basically, no, we're too close to the end,
so everyone's just lea.

Speaker 1 (52:44):
I think that sounds so grim.

Speaker 2 (52:46):
That sounds so grim, But okay, I wrote a column
a few weeks ago for Sunday Life, and I was
talking about how it's really important not to engage in
hyperbole when we talk about women's rights, because we do
have far better than any of the other women who
have gone for us.

Speaker 1 (53:01):
And that's a very point. It's also because people do
like to they're like, oh, it's the worst we've never
had anything.

Speaker 2 (53:07):
Yet we have and actually there are a lot of
women who are still having a pretty bad experience right now,
let's just be reasonable, like just everyone chill. But then,
like in the last couple of weeks, you know, the
way that things are playing out in like an international context,
it's really hard to learn about the all of the
norms that have been established over decades and decades and

(53:27):
decades to prevent us from catastrophe being like violated or broken,
like all of these agreements that we have between countries
to make sure that you know that there's a balance
of power between the US and Russia or the US
and China.

Speaker 1 (53:42):
Alway, and our allies are and who are.

Speaker 2 (53:44):
Exactly yeah, and you know, like if Russia can do
that to Ukraine and we let them, then what does
that say for any other context? You know, we can't
I can't underestimate or I can't understate just how scary
it is for the people who I've been learning from
to see all of these things that they're teaching us

(54:07):
changed so quickly, all of these rules about how we
engage you know, what happens with NATO, and you know,
like the rules of war, and you know, do we
give small parts of Ukraine to Russia just in order
to appease them and stuff?

Speaker 3 (54:20):
But there are people who live there they don't want
to be Russian. But also told us that.

Speaker 1 (54:24):
I think that this rapid movement of the world is
also reflected by what's happening in our media and social media,
Like things have never been so so quick to change
and have it and so then it throws everything into overdrive. Yeah,

(54:49):
and even people look at the past through the prism
of the present and it's like you're canceled, you're you know,
it's all of it is a lot.

Speaker 2 (54:59):
I think I've watched a movie recently in London September five,
and it's about all these people being taken hostage at
the Olympics.

Speaker 3 (55:07):
I actually can have vine to the premiere. I was
surprised that they invited me.

Speaker 2 (55:10):
Oh, but then I was like, I guess it's pretty niche,
like journalists who have been to the Olympics, who are
in lies.

Speaker 1 (55:16):
They're in English, Brooke Bony on the red carpet, waiting
to interview you, Brooke Bony.

Speaker 3 (55:20):
No, they didn't care about me at all.

Speaker 2 (55:22):
They're like, oh, you can just go over there and
take some photos of yourself if you want. But what
I was thinking about because it was sort of like
right at the beginning of like twenty four hour News,
and so they were broadcasting I don't want to give
away the plot of the movie, but they were broadcasting
parts of what was happening live this hostage situation and
had never really been done before. And as it was happening,
like as I was watching the movie, I was thinking,

(55:44):
the proliferation of news is maybe not so helpful because
you could make the argument that, you know, we don't
need to know everything. You know, how is it helpful
to us to know that this is going on at
this particular moment in this hostage situation. Is that going
to help the hostages in any way? Is it going
to help with any sort of democratic process. Is it

(56:07):
going to help with some sort of freedom of speech thing?

Speaker 3 (56:09):
Like what what does it actually do that is helpful?

Speaker 2 (56:12):
And so then if we don't, like we don't need
to know everything, then why do we always like there's
just so much of it. There's so much of it,
and I don't know that all of it is particularly helpful.
And then you get this situation a lot of it
is not helpful.

Speaker 3 (56:27):
Then you get these.

Speaker 2 (56:28):
Situations where you have to feel time for things right,
and so then people are getting like weird guests on
all like I don't know, we've all seen those like
weird news clips, and likewise it's like up late talking
about this bizarre theory. But like I guess, the natural
the natural progression of that is the splintering of it

(56:48):
all and the undermining of what's true and the undermining
of journalistic ethics and people not being able to doubt.

Speaker 1 (56:55):
I believe exactly what you ever be a showbiz reporter
on today?

Speaker 2 (57:01):
To be fair, I am talking about a movie.

Speaker 3 (57:06):
Yes you are, all right?

Speaker 1 (57:09):
Let me just ask you quickly about a few things
from your book. All right, The interest in sport.

Speaker 3 (57:15):
I love sport.

Speaker 1 (57:16):
You love sport.

Speaker 3 (57:17):
I love it so much.

Speaker 2 (57:18):
I think it's so funny that people are surprised by that.
Now tell me maybe you're one of these people, Like
do you think of sport and think, oh, meatheads, Oh
that's such a bogain thing to love.

Speaker 3 (57:28):
Oh whykay?

Speaker 1 (57:30):
I have developed respect for sport through watching my children
play sport. I never knew any sport, never played any sport.
We were Jiva's witness, so where was door knocking on weekends?
And I do not underestimate what it teaches what it brings.
But I'm still astounded by how much you love sport

(57:53):
and your interest in cranial injuries, because.

Speaker 2 (57:59):
I feel like it's just so interesting, right, Like I
think sport is so wonderful because it's like theater, Like
it lets you experience things really intense way in a
really short period of time. Like you can go and
see like like a play, and you're really laughing and
crying and feeling all of these things really intensely, like
in real life.

Speaker 3 (58:18):
They're real emotions. And sport does the same thing.

Speaker 2 (58:21):
Like if you go to the Swans, or actually if
you go to like an English soccer game and you
see them these Englishmen, and they're famous for being stoic,
right and like quite unemotional and quite cold. Do you
see them like singing in unison making up songs about
these people who are their heroes, like the coaches and
the players, And these are beautiful and funny and clever songs,

(58:43):
and they're like openly weeping and like like jubilant if
they you know, if they win. And I just think
that that is a pretty special experience for any of us,
but that sport can elicit that, and I don't like
that there's this sort of like I don't know like

(59:04):
that there's this like people think that it's it's not
as clever or intense or or thoughtful as other kinds
of expressions because it isn't like the same amount of
work goes into it.

Speaker 1 (59:15):
Yes, a lot of work goes into it.

Speaker 2 (59:17):
And I think as well, like people, if it's not
something that's like intellectual, then people just feel like they're
superior to it, yes, and they like if something is
like physical, or if it's if it's something that's like
a different kind of challenging, then then they feel like
some sort of sense of superior.

Speaker 1 (59:34):
Australia, I think it's a great equalizer.

Speaker 3 (59:36):
Yes, it is.

Speaker 1 (59:38):
I don't think people feel superior to it. In fact,
the opposite way. You see politicians pretending that they go
for a team because they think that that's going to
ingratiate themselves with.

Speaker 3 (59:48):
The thing with people.

Speaker 2 (59:50):
What about there's that clip of Rishi Sooner during the
election and he was trying to talk to some people
because he's so right, it's like hundreds of millions of
dollars pounds and he's trying to talk to like some
commoners that he's like, oh, yes, what about the football
or whatever?

Speaker 3 (01:00:05):
Like what like he just.

Speaker 1 (01:00:06):
Said like the completely wrong thing because he was just
trying to grasp something that might make him popular for
a moment.

Speaker 3 (01:00:14):
He didn't speak the language, like he didn't know.

Speaker 1 (01:00:16):
Hey, do you feel because you talk in the book
about that your whole body, body image, or the way
that you perceived or the pressures on a woman in
the public eye, well even if a woman's not in
the public eye, now that you don't have the cameras
on you, do you feel do you have a different
relationship with your body and your appearance?

Speaker 3 (01:00:40):
Yes? I think so.

Speaker 2 (01:00:43):
I think part of it will probably just stay with
me forever, like that you like that you perceived all
the time, you know that you're looked at, of it
that you sort of look.

Speaker 3 (01:00:54):
A certain way.

Speaker 2 (01:00:56):
But I didn't kind of realize how much of an impact,
not just physically, but like even like emotionally, or like
the way that I expressed myself was like filtered through
some sort of subconscious lens of always having to be
perceived by others. Right, And so when you when I
stopped having to like express myself all the time and
like you know, tell people what I'm thinking or like

(01:01:17):
you know, talk and like more sort of was going
in than was going out, Like I'm learning more than
I'm than I'm you know, talking. That was kind of
like a weird dynamic shift because I was like, oh,
I've gone from like having millions of people listen to
what I say every.

Speaker 3 (01:01:32):
Week to no one And.

Speaker 2 (01:01:36):
If it's it's pretty lovely, I could have say like there,
it will never leave me, I don't think, But to
have it dialed back and to not be super aware
of like how I look all the time or whatever,
it was pretty I think When I was on TV,
like I think I would probably have like makeup on
nearly every time I love the house, probably wouldn't leave

(01:01:58):
the house in that makeup, and not because I'm like, oh,
I think I'm hideous and I need to cover it up.
And you also had your makeup done, so my makeup done,
so I'd always be walking around done up to the night.
But also like without that sort of fear physical feeling
of having like a face of makeup, I felt like
really uncomfortable, almost like lashes and hair and exposed. Yes,

(01:02:19):
but now most of the time to class, like I
would just put on like a bit of like tinted
moisturizer and and mascara, and I'm so comfortable.

Speaker 3 (01:02:26):
With how it looks. But it took me, I reckon,
maybe two or three months.

Speaker 2 (01:02:31):
To get comfortable with looking normal. And also I really
this said, this is such a position of privilege, and
I realized this now. I didn't realize that people felt
so at war with themselves, like in the body that
they live in, Like that would be like living in
a house that's on fire. Like I didn't realize that
people had such an awful relationship with themselves. Obviously I

(01:02:54):
know about like eating disorders and things like that, but
in my imagination those things are like a form of
like depression or punishment or some sort of weird dynamic
psychologically that you can't sort of see yourself for who
you are. And again like please don't don't come for me,
because I don't know. You know, that was just sort
of I'm just describing, you know, the way that we
sort of thought about it when I was younger. It

(01:03:16):
wasn't like it wasn't like you're living in something that
doesn't belong to you, or that you don't like, or
that you you know, you feel hostile towards I didn't
get that, and that it was such a gift and
a privilege to be pretty much okay with yourself.

Speaker 1 (01:03:29):
Brook Bony, I can't wait till you're Prime minister.

Speaker 3 (01:03:32):
Oh, I don't.

Speaker 2 (01:03:33):
Say that, don't I like that is such a huge job.
I don't think I don't like that.

Speaker 3 (01:03:43):
I don't.

Speaker 2 (01:03:43):
I would never want to do a job that big.
I shouldn't probably say that, because like what if one
day I wanted to do and they'll reap, they'll play
this in campaign as Yeah, they will.

Speaker 3 (01:03:53):
I never want to do a job that's that big.

Speaker 1 (01:03:55):
Big. I can't do a big job. I mean, it
will destroy my sweetness, I'm too sweet, all that sweet
with my tinted moisturizer.

Speaker 3 (01:04:04):
I don't want to do a big job.

Speaker 1 (01:04:05):
Well, so at this back to the start of the book,
one of the things that you're positing yourself with yourself
is or to yourself, is the possibility that you won't
be fulfilling that part of yourself that's been rewarded by
being famous once you lead the Today Show, what do

(01:04:26):
you mean? Well, so there's a part of you that,
even though you long to see what you're like without
the trappings of, you know, being well known, there's also
the fear of how you will navigate the world in
which you're not well known. How are you going at that?

Speaker 3 (01:04:44):
I feel like I'm going all right.

Speaker 1 (01:04:46):
I think you are too.

Speaker 3 (01:04:47):
I feel good.

Speaker 2 (01:04:48):
Like the first kind of couple of weeks is hard
because everything felt like so new and so weird and
like so foreign, like every part of it. I didn't
know how to study, I didn't know how to do
any of that stuff, like even I don't know just
like sort of basic admin stuff felt like really tough
because it's like figuring out your school email and stalling

(01:05:09):
it into your outlook, like.

Speaker 1 (01:05:10):
Yeah, and there's no one to ask, no one to help. No,
there's no assistant producer or whatever.

Speaker 3 (01:05:15):
It's like, if you need.

Speaker 2 (01:05:16):
Tech help or help with your admin stuff, there's people
around that always help with us kind of thing, because
you know, your job is to be on TV to
present things like you've got to focus on that, and
so I just sort of step.

Speaker 3 (01:05:27):
Away from that. It's like, oh my god, what have
I done? What have I done? But no, I feel
good like it. I don't regret it.

Speaker 1 (01:05:36):
No good. It's a good place to be, very good
place to be. And when you regret it, you can
come back and tell us.

Speaker 3 (01:05:46):
Come back with my head in my hand, please.

Speaker 1 (01:05:48):
Boney a very I'm not the first to say it,
but it's a really beautiful book.

Speaker 3 (01:05:53):
Thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:05:55):
And you're a very lovely writer. Thank you, And you
know what, you're very sweet. Whatever Brooks is actually thinks
she would make a great politician. This conversation only scratched
the surface of brooks life. And that's why she has

(01:06:16):
written a book. It's called All of It. I loved it.
I read it twice. I hope she believes me now.
In fact, I could pass a quiz on her. We
put all the details in the show notes. The executive
producer of No Filter is Nama Brown, Senior producer is
Grace Rufrey. Sound design is by Jacob Brown. And I'm

(01:06:40):
your host, Kate Laine Brook. I'll be back with you
next week.