May 28, 2025 • 40 mins
Do you ever get stuck asking yourself a bunch of hypothetical, “what if” questions that make you more and more stressed, even though the situation isn’t actually happening? You've probably found yourself in a stress spiral. In this episode of But Are You Happy, Dr. Anastasia Hronis will teach you the 5-minute method to stop a stress spiral in its tracks. You will also learn:
- The difference between a panic attack and stress
- When to seek help, and how.
- Why anxiety isn’t always a bad thing - and what it’s trying to teach us
- Why we worry and stress so much in the first place
If you or someone you know needs support, contact Lifeline on 13 11 14 or Beyond Blue on 1300 22 4636. Both services are available 24/7 for free, confidential mental health support.
Want to get in touch with us? DM @butareyouhappypod on Instagram or send us a voice memo. Our hosts are ready to hear your dilemmas—think of it as free therapy!
CREDITS:
Hosts: Ashani Dante & Dr Anastasia Hronis
Executive Producer: Naima Brown
Senior Producer: Tahli Blackman
Audio Producer: Jacob Round
Our studio is styled with furniture from Fenton and Fenton visit.
Mamamia acknowledges the Traditional Owners of the Land we have recorded this podcast on, the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation. We pay our respects to their Elders past and present and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander cultures.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
So much.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
You're listening to a MoMA Maya podcast. Mamma Mayer acknowledges
the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast
is recorded.
Speaker 3 (00:18):
On Hello, no filter listeners. This is Naima Brown, the
executive producer of this show and also of But Are
You Happy? And I am very excited to bring you
the first episode of the new season of But Are
You Happy? Hosted by a Shawne Dante and doctor Anastasia Heronus.
Ashawnee and Anastasia will be bringing you the self development
and mental health conversations that we know you want that
(00:41):
you've asked us for about everything from worry spirals anxiety,
to why you keep dating the wrong person, to how
to spot the narcissist in your life so many more topics.
We know you're gonna like it. Enjoy this first episode
and please like and follow But Are You Happy wherever
you listen to podcasts.
Speaker 4 (01:00):
Due to circumstances that were completely in my control and
actually pretty predictable based on my past behavior, I will
be spiraling for the next week or so.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Anyone needs anything, I'm God, poor mother Mia.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
I'm your host, as Shani Dante. Welcome to But Are
You happy because no another personality quiz won't fix you.
Speaker 5 (01:21):
And I'm doctor Anastagia Hernis a clinical psychologist passionate about
happiness and mental health. Now, do you ever get stuck
thinking about a hypothetical situation that isn't really happening and
asking yourself a bunch of questions that make you more
and more stressed. You've probably found yourself in a stress spiral.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
If you've listened to this show before, my voice may
not be familiar. I'm a mental wellbeing and self development leader.
I'm Australian fore Lunkan, and I'm constantly on a journey
of learning more about my.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
Culture and my passion.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
And you could say purpose in life right now is
all around empowering teenage girls and young women.
Speaker 5 (02:01):
And I'm an academic and author. Most recently i published
a book called The Dopamine Brain. So my whole career
focus really is about how to help people develop new
habits to optimize their mental health.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
We're going to be shifting gears to bring you what
you told us you wanted conversations with an expert about
the things that you are thinking about, working on, struggling through,
or really just curious about and that's where you Doctor
Anastasia heronus, you come into the equation.
Speaker 5 (02:29):
We're going to be covering so many relevant topics like
how to stop dating the wrong person, how to say
no to the people we love, and how to actually
quieten down that voice in our head when it's being
really mean to us.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
In each episode, you'll be getting all of Doctor Anastasia's
wisdom and knowledge, along with her clear takeaways specific guidance
for how you can apply this information to your lives.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
Right now, as you may.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
Have guessed, we're kicking this season off with the topic
that we know so many of us can struggle with,
including myself, anxiety, worry and getting called in those stress spirals.
Speaker 5 (03:09):
Now, this is something so many of my clients have
been dealing with lately, and you might be.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
Two, All right, let's jump in, okay, on the staga,
How do we actually know if we're anxious?
Speaker 2 (03:27):
How does it show up?
Speaker 5 (03:28):
Anxiety is a massive topic. There's so much for us
to talk about here, and it really does exist on
a spectrum of experiences. It's one of the most common
things actually that a lot of my clients are facing
at the moment. And if we put this kind of
in the context of Aussies around the country. About three
million Australians actually live with anxiety. It's about one in
(03:49):
four of us will experience problematic anxiety at some point
in our lives.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
That's a wild stat and just goes to show how
common it is. And we'd love to kind of unpack
anxiety because I feel like it does get.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
A really bad rap. Yeah, it's so common.
Speaker 5 (04:04):
Yes, anxiety gets a bad rap. It doesn't feel good, right,
And none of us like to feel anxious, and so
it's sort of classified broadly as one of these bad emotions,
an emotion that we want to get rid of. We
don't want to feel anxious, so how do we get
rid of it? But actually, anxiety, along with every other emotion,
serves a really important function all emotions. It's important for
(04:28):
us to think about them as sources of information. They're
like data points. They give us information about ourselves, about
the world, about the environment around us. So I think
it's crucial for us to be able to lean into
the information that an emotion actually gives us. Now, if
(04:48):
we circle back to anxiety specifically, the function of anxiety
is to essentially be the body's smoke detector and smoke alarm, right,
So anxiety is giving us the message that there might
be some sort of danger or threat in the environment
that we need to be aware of and perhaps then
(05:09):
do something to protect ourselves.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
It's really great that you're unpacking this because I feel
like what I'm hearing is anxiety can actually be helpful
as well at times, which is very different to I
would say what we naturally have our definition of anxiety.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
We want to shame it.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
There's a stigma around it, we don't want to talk
about it, we want to push it away. Yet what
I'm hearing is it is actually giving us more information about,
you know, the context of the situation that might be playing out.
So in saying that, like, how do you differentiate between
when anxiety is helpful and unhelpful?
Speaker 5 (05:44):
Anxiety will always show up in all of us throughout
our life, so we can't get rid of it completely.
So I think this question about helpful versus unhelpful anxiety
is really important. Unhelpful anxiety is when we experience anxiety
that's out of context. So let me explain what I
(06:04):
mean by that. If we experience anxiety in a situation
that doesn't warrant us to be anxious. That's going to
be unhelpful for us. So if we're sitting in the
podcast studio right now talking and all of a sudden,
a big grizzly bear runs through the studio, we're going
to feel anxious, Right, normal natural emotion. We want to
feel anxious in that situation because anxiety is going to
(06:26):
prompt us to get up and run out of this place. Right.
Helpful anxiety so unhelpful. Anxiety sends us a message which
makes us overestimate the likelihood things are going to go wrong.
So I think this is a great episode for us
to be starting with and talking about. But to answer
your question, how does anxiety show up? I'm actually going
(06:46):
to use a client of mine. We're going to call
her Catherine for not actually her name, but to be anonymous,
we'll call her Catherine. She had to do a lot
of public speaking for her work and in her role,
but would get this crippling, overwhelming fear of getting on
stage and making a full of herself and saying the
wrong thing. Now, there was no history of her ever
(07:08):
really doing that. She was generally pretty fine with her
public speaking, and even if she did kind of get
on stage and say something a little wrong. It wasn't
kind of the end of the world. So anxiety makes
us overestimate that things will go wrong, But it does
another thing. It also makes us underestimate our ability to
cope if things do go wrong, because I don't have
(07:31):
a magic wand to say that Catherine will never get
on stage and never make a full of herself. Right,
there is a world in which that could happen. So
there is a chance. It's probably a small chance, but
there is a chance. But anxiety makes us underestimate our
ability to cope if that happens. So if Catherine got
on stage and completely forgot what she was meant to
be saying in her presentation, it would feel pretty crappy,
(07:52):
like it wouldn't be a nice experience for her. The
crowd would probably be like, oh, she's forgot what she's
meant to say. But in reality, it's a situation she
could cope with. She'd just walk off, take a breath,
grab her notes, come back on the stage, keep going.
Probably no one ever thinks about it again. So that's
an example of where anxiety can be unhelpful for us,
because all it was doing was making Catherine feel completely
(08:14):
overwhelmed and stressed when she didn't really need to.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
I really love this too, because it kind of ties
back to your statistic that you've named before and how
common it is. But also what I'm hearing is that
even though it's common, anxiety can show up in different ways.
So I like that you're kind of giving us the
listeners different ideas of what that could potentially look like.
Speaker 5 (08:35):
Yes, And the reason it is so common is because
from a biological prehistoric perspective, anxiety was crucial for the
survival of the species, if we remember, it serves evolutionary
function to protect us. It's just that nowadays we live
in a world, in a society, especially if you live
in here in Australia, where we don't need to be
(08:57):
as alert for threats and dangers. But emotions exist in
a very primal part of the brain, so we feel
those emotional experiences much more and that anxiety much more
than actually need to given how our life and society
functions these days.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
So what about a stress spiral, Like, what exactly is
a stress spirl?
Speaker 2 (09:18):
And how can you tell if you're caughting one?
Speaker 5 (09:20):
I love this because a stress spiral is not necessarily
a clinical technical term that I would use, but it
is definitely a term that many of my clients will
use right in sort of pop culture, and when people
colloquially talk about anxiety, they will talk about being in
a stress spiral. And so I guess what people are
getting at is this idea of getting deeper and deeper
(09:44):
in an experience. Stress Again, a normal natural emotion that
will all experience at some point in time when we're
feeling overwhelmed with some sort of pressure. But what can
happen is we can get caught further and further in
that experience, which ultimately makes it more and more intense.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
So does that mean in a way with stress spirals?
Because you mentioned and I hear it all the time.
It is thrown around a lot in pop culture. So
what isn't a stress viral?
Speaker 5 (10:12):
Then that's a good alternative question. What isn't a stress viral?
What isn't a stress viral is when we experience stress
in a way that meets the expectation of a situation.
So if I have an impending deadline for work on
Friday and it's now Thursday and I haven't got it
(10:35):
almost done, stress is going to naturally come about, and
stress can actually be a really useful thing in that situation.
Because I don't know if you've ever experienced this, but
a little bit of healthy stress helps us get things done.
Speaker 2 (10:46):
Very true can confirm.
Speaker 5 (10:48):
So healthy stress actually motivates us to meet the deadline,
to get done what we need to do. Unhealthy stress
debilitates us.
Speaker 1 (10:59):
It's really interesting because I'm hearing some common themes. Even
with anxiety. What we're hearing is it's helpful and unhelpful.
But also with stress, it's helpful and also unhelpful.
Speaker 5 (11:08):
So and that goes with all emotions. All emotions can
be helpful when they fit the context and when we
experience them in a way that feels manageable. But if
we experience them too intensely or too much or for
too long, they can become really debilitating in our lives.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
So is there a difference between anxiety in the body
as we feel it versus thinking anxious thoughts.
Speaker 5 (11:31):
Yes, absolutely, they're absolutely related. They're connected. So our thoughts,
our thoughts are very powerful. They certainly influence how we feel.
So if I'm worrying, if I'm going through that anxious
thinking process, I'm more likely to feel anxiety in the body.
But one of the things I interestingly find in the
(11:51):
work that I do with clients is that people tend
to fall into one of two categories. Some people will
come into the therapy room and they'll be able to
describe to me in great detail the physical experience of anxiety.
So they'll tell me that get anxious, and they'll say,
I feel my heart racing, I get sweaty, I feel dizzy,
(12:13):
I feel like I'm going to faint, my legs feel wobbly,
and I feel like I can't stand up anymore. So
they can give me all the details about what it
physically feels like in their body. Other people can come
in the room and tell me great details about what
they're thinking, their thought processes, and the things that they're
worrying about. And ultimately, what we want to help people
(12:34):
do is have an awareness of both the thought processes
that can be quite anxious in nature and the physical
experience of anxiety in the body.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
So what about a panic attack, What exactly is that.
Speaker 5 (12:49):
A panic attack is different to anxiety. We could sort
of summarize it as a much more intense experience of
anxiety in and of itself. So a panic attack tends
to last not more than ten minutes on average. And
when people experience a panic attack, they have this overwhelming
(13:11):
physical experience of those anxious sensations, so really intense heart racing, sweating,
feeling shaky, feeling like they're going to faint. And often
people actually describe it as a feeling where they think
they're having a heart attack or they think they might
be dying. Like it's actually quite a scary experience for
those who do have panic attacks.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
Yeah, I feel like panic attacks. It's something I feel.
I hear all the time with people who've experienced personally
or observed someone else that they love going through one,
and it can be quite confronting in a way.
Speaker 5 (13:45):
And the thing is, often these panic attacks can feel
like they come out of nowhere. There isn't always a
clear trigger, So it's not necessarily like, you know, Catherine
about to go on stage, worrying about is she going
to make a fool out of herself Pete. Someone might
literally just be sitting in the office and all of
a sudden they get this onslaught of anxious symptoms and
(14:05):
they have a panic attack. Sometimes the trigger can be
outside in the environment. But actually sometimes it can be
an internal sensation. So for example, if I've had a
couple of cups of coffee today, maybe a few too
many cups of coffee, well, my heart might be racing
a little bit faster than it usually would, and that's
(14:25):
because of the stimulant from the caffeine. But someone who's
prone to panic attacks might be sitting in the office
and goof, my heart's racing. Heart racing equals anxiousness and anxiety.
What's happening in my life right now that I'm anxious about?
And so then they'll start spiraling down that rabbit hole,
whereas it's actually just a physical sensation that they've picked
(14:47):
up on and honed in on a bit too much.
Speaker 1 (14:50):
So does that mean because what I'm hearing panic attacks,
it's definitely a really big it's a body sensation.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
It's quite sounds quite severe.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
So then what's the difference between just feeling anxiety in
your body versus I'm having a panic attack.
Speaker 5 (15:05):
I think it comes back to the usefulness of the experience.
So when someone has a panic attack, it's for those
ten or so minutes it's debilitating. It feels like they
cannot function. People might often have to actually leave the
room and excuse themselves, whereas anxiety in and of itself
might be uncomfortable, but we can still function in the world.
(15:26):
It can motivate us to take an action that's helpful
for us.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
So it's a bit like there's a bit of a spectrum,
but if it's anxiety in the body, there's somewhat more
control around how you can move through it.
Speaker 5 (15:38):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
Yeah, so you've told us a bit about Catherine with
her fear of public speaking. What are some of the
other themes you're noticing in your clinical work.
Speaker 5 (15:46):
Anxiety shows up in so many different ways for people.
But actually, interestingly, one of the recent themes I've seen
is this anxiousness and worry about big picture kind of
global events, So things like worrying about wars, worrying about
climate change, worrying about politics and how politics are going
(16:09):
to influence the future. And often in these cases they're
issues that are so big that one person, you know,
can't necessarily change them. So there's this theme of anxiety
coming through the clinic room where people are feeling really
quite overwhelmed and sometimes also a little bit hopeless, kind
of at the state of affairs in the world at
(16:30):
the moment. So that's one thing I've seen more of,
particularly with climate change. Young people are really worried about
and wanting to talk about climate change at the moment.
But another one is cost of living. Things have become
so expensive at the moment. We're certainly in a cost
of living crisis, and that can range from people worrying
(16:51):
about how they're going to, you know, afford to buy
a house one day in the future if that's one
of their goals, all the way down to do I
have enough money to buy groceries this week?
Speaker 1 (17:00):
I mean, the cost of living example is so relatable
and I think even for me personally. Once I left
high school, I went straight into university and then went
down that traditional path, but then I decided to get
into the startup world, so I started the flourish journey,
which I'm so incredibly proud of.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
But in saying that, you.
Speaker 1 (17:21):
Know, startup life, you don't really have a very stable income,
which means you can't really secure alone for a home,
And to be honest, when you're in your early twenties,
you don't really.
Speaker 2 (17:29):
Think about those things.
Speaker 1 (17:30):
You think that, oh, that's a ten year problem. But
fast forward, you know, I'm thirty three now. It feels
like society tells you, oh, you need to have a
house and have all the things set up.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
By thirty and that weighs on me.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
I feel like I feel like I am behind, even
though it's so easy to look at the highlight reels
on Instagram and know that it is the highlight reels,
but you still get sucked into it. So it's definitely
something that weighs on me. I'm not sure if that's
something you can relate to as well.
Speaker 5 (17:57):
Absolutely, this idea of kind of financially where we should
be at any point in our life and how much
we should have saved or what we should have done
with that money, is you know, something I can relate
to as well. But as I said, like a lot
of people, a lot of younger people are kind of
thinking about this and worrying about it as well.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
Yeah, I feel like there's a lot of shame around
talking about money, right, and so often we feel like
we're alone in it, or we feel like we're the
poorest friend out of everyone.
Speaker 5 (18:22):
And the starts speak to the opposite, right, So so
many people are actually struggling financially. And I was actually
looking at a report that came out last year from
Mission Australia and it surveyed almost twenty thousand people and
a particularly young cohort. Right, So these were fifteen to
nineteen year olds, and what they found is that fifty
five percent, so more than half, were significantly worried about
(18:46):
and had anxiety about their financial security. And I was
just blown away when I read that, because I was like,
fifteen to nineteen year olds, like we should be worried about.
Fifteen is like you know, the fight that you've had
with your friends at school, and like you're going to
sit with at lunch and maybe studying for tests, not
financial security for your future.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
After this short break, duck down a stage is going
to teach you the five minute method to help you
break out of an anxiety spiral and stop an anxiety attack.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
In its tracks.
Speaker 1 (19:20):
At Asasia, I want to ask you for two techniques today. First,
I want you to tell us what we can do
for ourselves where we find ourselves spirally, and what should
we do for someone else.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
Let's start with ourselves.
Speaker 5 (19:34):
So the technique and the strategies that I'm going to
give you today are based on a type of therapy
called cognitive behavior therapy or CBT for short, and it
has the evidence behind it. It's sort of the gold
standard therapeutic approach that we would use for someone who
is experiencing anxiety. It's what I used with Catherine when
(19:57):
she was worried about getting on stage and doing her
public speaking. So what I first recommends to people, and
this is going to sound really basic, but bear with me,
is stop as a first step, just stop, take a moment,
take a breath, take a pause. For us to be
able to do kind of anything effective for ourselves, we
(20:19):
first need to be able to just stop and take
a breath and ground ourselves in the moment.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
It's really interesting because it can sound really basic, but
also it can be really hard when you're in it
so deeply.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
It's hard to stop.
Speaker 5 (20:34):
Yes, absolutely, And so I say to people, just like physically, stop,
don't take another step, don't say another word, you know, metaphorically,
even if you're sort of in a situation where you
are in a meeting at work or something, imagine yourself stopping,
but just kind of take that moment, take that pause,
take that breath, because once we've done that we're in
a better position to help ourselves through the next few steps.
(20:57):
So once we've stopped, we want to take a moment
to think about our thinking, reflect on our thoughts, actually
notice what our brain and our mind is telling us.
We were saying earlier that the mind is so powerful,
our thoughts are so powerful, and they certainly influence us
(21:19):
to feel particular ways. But not everything that we think, well,
not everything that we tell ourselves is actually true. We
all engage in unhelpful patterns of thinking. We might catastrophize,
we might be quite black and white now thinking, we
might just jump to conclusions. We do all these sort
(21:41):
of thought patterns quite naturally, but they can actually be
really unhelpful for us. So if I circle back to Catherine,
as I was saying, she would be very fearful of
getting on stage, and her brain would be telling her,
you're going to make a full of yourself. You're going
to stuff up, you're going to forget what you have
to talk about, and then you'll have to run off
stage and everyone will be talking about it for the
(22:02):
next two weeks at work. So she was telling herself
all these unhelpful things that probably weren't actually going to happen,
weren't very true and weren't based on any kind of
history of that actually happening to her. So it's really
important for us to be able to identify what is
my brain actually telling me so that I can then
examine A is it true? And B is it helpful?
Speaker 1 (22:27):
I really like that moment of pause, and essentially we're
kind of zooming out to see what are we thinking
and if it is helpful or not helpful.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
And I find even journaling.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
Journaling is such a great way to actually put it
down on paper and then getting to the bottom of it.
I know, for me, there's been times where I just
look at the things that I'm actually thinking about and
I can't help but kind of giggle to myself, being like,
this is actually ridiculous.
Speaker 2 (22:50):
I would never say this.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
To anyone else, but you know, we're all our own
worst in a critic.
Speaker 5 (22:55):
So I love the journaling because actually seeing those words
that we're internally saying to ourselves on paper, we put
that distance between ourselves and the thoughts, and so we
can see it with a bit more clarity. So once
we've stopped, we've reflected on our thoughts, we've identified that
maybe they're not that true or that helpful for the
(23:16):
situation that we're in. I then encourage people to ask themselves,
what about this situation is in your control and what's
out of your control? Because once we can identify what
is within our control, we can make active steps to
have agency over that and change the thing that's in
our control. Sometimes we get stuck being so anxious about
(23:39):
things that are ultimately out of our control that we
can't change, and that's really where worry becomes quite unhelpful
for us. So if we can focus on what's in
our control, we can take steps to action that and
create some change for ourselves.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
So what happens if you're too deep in the spiral
and you know the strategies you've just mentioned doesn't actually work.
Speaker 5 (24:00):
What do we do?
Speaker 2 (24:01):
Then?
Speaker 5 (24:03):
This is great because it's all well and good for
us to be able to think about our thinking. Yeah,
but if we're in a state of panic and distress
and complete overwhelm, that's actually a really hard thing to do.
So if we're at that eight, nine to ten out
of ten level of anxiety, I actually recommend that people
instead utilize the senses. Right, So there's two different ways
(24:27):
we can do this. One is going down a pathway
of what we call self soothing. So this is using
the senses in a way that's really comforting and nice
and kind to help bring down that level of stress
and anxiety to a level that feels more manageable. So
if we think across the senses, these might be things
(24:48):
like lighting a scented candle, smelling some incense, eating something
that tastes really lovely or nostalgic, you know, sipping on
a hot cup of tea or oha. So utilizing the
sensors in a way that's calming for the body. Tend
(25:09):
to have sensory preferences. So for me, I love touch.
If I don't feel good, my go to is it
doesn't matter how hot it is, put on a jumper.
I find it, like, you know, having a bit of
a hug put on the jumper, it's really comforting. Get
under the dona, anything that sort of is touching my
skin is really calming and soothing for me. I don't know,
a Shane, if you've got sensory preferences.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
I feel like, I mean outside of the matcha as well,
like food taste is really good, but also the senses,
so dim lighting, it's just so calming and it feels
like I'm in a spa, but I'm at home with
my fairy lights on.
Speaker 5 (25:44):
So yes, So the self soothing can be really effective
when we can't think our way out of anxiety, but
we want to physically do something to help regulate our anxiety.
Self soothing is great. The other option that utilizes the
sensors is a more intense version of using the sensors,
(26:04):
and this provides a bit of a shock to the system.
So if there is one strategy I could give someone
to help manage their anxiety when it's at that ten
out of ten peak, it's utilizing cold cold water, really
frozen ice packs from the freezer, a bag of frozen peas,
(26:25):
whatever you've got that's cold. It is incredibly effective on
a physiological level for reregulating our body. One of the
things we try to do is actually mimic what we
call the deep dive reflex. So this is something that
all mammals actually have, and it's ultimately this idea that
if you jumped into a swimming pool full of cold water,
(26:46):
you would naturally hold your breath. Your blood pressure changes,
your heart rate changes, and this all happens because your
body wants to conserve energy, and we can mimic this
to our advantage. So I encourage people, if they're feeling
really overwhelmed, jump in a cold shower. It doesn't feel pleasant,
it takes a bit of bit it gots to get
(27:08):
in there sometimes unless you someone who regularly does cold plunges.
But it can be hard but incredibly effective. If you
imagine yourself ten out of ten anxiety, you know, hot, flush,
heart racing, sweating, dizzy, and you jumped in a cold
swimming pool or a cold shower, you would pretty quickly
(27:28):
physically feel a fair bit better. Doesn't solve the problem
of what's causing the anxiety, but physically it helps reregulate
us so that we're in a better position to be
able to manage the anxious situation that we're faced with.
If you can't jump in the cold shower, I say,
get the ice packs out of the freezer, bag of
(27:48):
frozen peas, whatever you've got that's cold in the freezer,
and put it over your head and temples and around
the eyes. This is the really kind of effective place
we want to place the frozen object. But also if
you're out and about and you don't have a freezer
bag or a cold shower handy, get into woolies, go
into the freezer, open that door and feel the blast
(28:11):
of the cold. So if you're in the car, turn
on the air con blast it into your face. Your
face is really effective for trying to regulate with the cold.
So it's my go to tip.
Speaker 1 (28:22):
Wow, you know, I'm so surprised that cold actually helps
because I know how much it can make me stress,
Like I assumed that it would spike my cortisol levels.
And yeah, I'm just glad that there's two options here.
I'm going to take the soothing route, not sure.
Speaker 5 (28:39):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (28:39):
I'm not sure about the cold therapy.
Speaker 5 (28:41):
But the stress is probably more before you're actually is
my thoughts. That's the anxiety.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
Okay, cool, it's all clear. We're getting the breakthroughs here.
This is great.
Speaker 1 (28:53):
So what if none of the techniques that you've talked
about still isn't working and someone's stealing really deep emotional pain,
like is that when they should seek a psychologist or
a professional to get medication.
Speaker 5 (29:06):
Potentially, if people feel like therapy and these kinds of
strategies aren't working for them. That's definitely a situation where
we would encourage someone to go talk to either a
GP or a psychiatrist. Both can prescribe medications to be
able to talk through what the different options are. There
are so many different medications when it comes to managing
(29:29):
anxiety and our mental health that it is really important
to see a professional to talk through what the different
options are. But what I would say is that medication
can be incredibly helpful, but is best when it's done
in conjunction with therapy because often what we find is
that if people just go on medication for a period
of time, when they eventually decide to come off it,
(29:52):
if they haven't addressed what the underlying concerns and issues are,
they're probably very quickly going to go back to feeling anxious.
So the therapy and the medication hand in hand can
be a fantastic combination for people.
Speaker 1 (30:05):
So you've just shared with us some really great techniques
around how to manage anxiety and panic attacks for ourselves,
But what about someone else?
Speaker 5 (30:13):
If we're trying to help someone else who is feeling
anxious and overwhelmed, the first thing I would recommend is
don't panic yourself don't take on that other person's anxiety
and panic and feel anxious or panicky yourself. Stay calm
and stay with them. What I mean by stay with
them is yes, physically stay with them, but emotionally, stay
(30:36):
with them. Attune to what they're feeling, Listen to them,
hear them, validate them. Everyone wants to feel heard in life,
and so often it's the case that if someone's worried
about something, we want to jump in with a fix totally.
We want to say don't worry, everything will be fine,
and probably never in the history of someone feeling anxious
(30:56):
as that actually helps. Like if you say don't worry,
everything's going to be okay, the person doesn't walk away
being like, ah, okay, great, right. If we feel overwhelmed
and anxious, we want to feel heard. We want to
feel understood. So that's sometimes the biggest thing that we
can give people, being there with them physically, but emotionally
being with them.
Speaker 1 (31:17):
Yeah, it's so it's so hard to do sometimes, I feel,
especially with women, we're so empathetic and when someone we
love that is struggling, it's easy to just subconsciously.
Speaker 2 (31:27):
Take that on.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
And I really like that you're helping us to separate ourselves,
being like, it has nothing to do about you or
how you showed up. It's purely what does that person need.
Speaker 5 (31:37):
Right now, really focusing on that person and being there
for them, attuning to them. So once we've done that,
the next thing is moving into helping them through it. Right,
But we don't want to assume that we know what
that person wants or needs right ask them, ask them
if there's anything that they know that's helpful for them
in these moments. They might be able to say to you, yeah,
(32:01):
you know what, I just need you to talk to
me about something else. Just distract me, tell me what
you've been watching on TV lately, Like, let's just have
a conversation about something else to get me through this.
So people are often well resourced at knowing what they need,
and that's where we can jump in and help give
that to them. If, however, someone doesn't know what they
need in that moment, if we ask them and they're
(32:23):
not able to tell us, that's where we can offer
some suggestions and some solutions. And sometimes the simplest one
is actually us helping someone get out of the space
that they're in and just going outside taking a break,
grabbing a cup of coffee, moving, moving the body, and
moving out of their physical surroundings and space in that moment.
Speaker 1 (32:45):
Okay, Anastasia, Because I'm someone that is always about having
a growth by set. Next time I'm going to woolies
or calls, I've got to go into the freezer aisle,
grab those frozen peas and stuck up by freezer just
for you.
Speaker 2 (32:59):
I'll report back on how it goes.
Speaker 1 (33:06):
After this short break, Anastasia is going to solve the
personal problem that one of you, our listeners sent us.
Speaker 2 (33:13):
Stay with us, Berb Hereb, Bierb.
Speaker 3 (33:18):
I'm having a serious crisis.
Speaker 5 (33:20):
BRB having a crisis.
Speaker 2 (33:23):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (33:23):
I am really excited to debut this segment, which will
be bringing you in every episode of But are you happy?
This is where we respond to the dilemmas or questions
that you our listeners, have sent us, and Anastasia will
provide her best advice. Our first dilemma comes from Sydney.
Speaker 4 (33:40):
So I'm in my late twenties and I feel like
every conversation I have with my friends lately is honestly
such a drainer, because all they ever want to talk
about is whether or not they're going to buy property,
whether or not to pro create, or whether or not
to get married, And honestly, I just don't really care
about any of those things. But for whatever reason, there's
(34:00):
still this weird pressure when you get to your late
twenties where you feel like you're in the paniciars, and
you do need to make all of these big decisions
that are going to set you up for like the next.
Speaker 5 (34:09):
Time ten years or more.
Speaker 4 (34:10):
Maybe what can I do to feel like I can
live the fun life that I want to live, but
also set myself up the future.
Speaker 5 (34:16):
And not feel stressed about what's around the corner. You
are not alone in this. I've heard many people share
similar stories about things that they're worrying about. This idea
of how do I have the life I want now?
How do I have the fun that I want now
and set myself up for the future as well? And
I wish I could waive the magic wand and give
(34:37):
a really short, simple solution to this, but unfortunately it's
not that simple. It's all about balance, right, and as humans,
we have a tendency to want to find a single
answer to a problem. But in reality, I don't think
there is a simple answer here. Life is complex. We
(34:58):
are complex, and so it's always about how do we
find balance between the fun and the enjoyment in the
short term with balancing those long term goals that we
might have. Now, if you're worried about making decisions that
you might regret in the future, I'd encourage you to
(35:18):
reflect on what your values are. So we all have values,
we might not always be aware of them, so it's
important to take some time out to actually reflect on
what our values are. But essentially, values are the things
that are most important to us in life. We can
think of them as like a compass, a compass that
(35:40):
directs us down a particular path in life, and from
those values we can set goals and tasks and activities
for ourselves that feel really meaningful and values aligned. The
research tells us that when people live their life in
alignment with their values, they have greater overall life satisfaction
(36:00):
and contentment. So being able to reflect on those values
can be a really key part of helping us make
decisions for ourselves. And having that clarity around value can
help us with making decisions about some of these things
that feel really big in life. You know, should I
have kids, should I buy a house, what should I
be planning for in my thirties, etc. Having a knowledge
of our values can help us make those decisions that
(36:23):
can sometimes feel really overwhelming, and also help us reflect
on are those values my own or I think what
society has told me, you know, should be important to me,
because that will influence our decision making as well. Is
it that society has told me that owning a home,
or having kids, or being at this point in my
career should be important to me? Or is that actually
(36:45):
what my values are?
Speaker 1 (36:47):
I really love it because it's essentially doing your values
is getting to know yourself even more, which is important And.
Speaker 5 (36:55):
For any of the listeners out there, if you haven't
ever done this values reflection, have a go, get out
a pen and a paper, sit down at a desk
and just write out a list of the things that
are important to you. Write single words, right, So these
are things like family, health, adventure, creativity, honesty. Right, So
(37:16):
there's single words. It's not like I value having a
coffee in the morning. What is it that the coffee
in the morning gives me? It's my moment of peace,
a value piece. I value enjoyment in life, you know,
what is it that that thing gives me? What's the
value underneath it? Write them out.
Speaker 1 (37:33):
I really love that process because it's helping us to
look at, Okay, what are the things that I essentially
love doing and what are the things that.
Speaker 2 (37:39):
I hate doing?
Speaker 1 (37:41):
And then underneath that is where we'll discover our values.
Speaker 5 (37:44):
Absolutely, And then for any of the listeners who want
to take it one step further, I'm giving a lot
of homework here, but reflect on am I actually living
my life aligned with these values? So, for example, if
I have the value of creativity, Okay, it's all well
and good to know that I value creativity, But am
I doing anything creative in my life? Because having the
(38:06):
value doesn't necessarily mean that we're living out the value.
So if you can identify any mismatch, that's a really
great place where you can make some positive, healthy changes
for yourself.
Speaker 1 (38:18):
So if we have clarity around our values, would that
reduce our anxiety?
Speaker 5 (38:24):
It absolutely can. If we know what our values are,
we feel better equipped to make decisions in life. And
so often, you know, anxiety can come from that feeling
of being overwhelmed, like Courtney was, with what she should
do in life and how she should live life. So
knowing our values can absolutely help us reduce anxiety and
(38:46):
feel more kind of satisfaction and contentment in life.
Speaker 2 (38:51):
All right, everyone, let's get into our homework.
Speaker 1 (38:53):
Let's get our values done Atastasia, we have covered a
lot of ground in today's episode.
Speaker 2 (39:09):
Can you give us a recap?
Speaker 1 (39:10):
We want the post it note on the bathroom mirror reminders, please.
Speaker 5 (39:15):
Absolutely, okay. First up, anxiety serves a necessary function in
the brain and body. Second, sometimes anxiety can get a
bit too intense or a situation doesn't warrant us to
be anxious. Third, if that's the case, we can mentally
talk ourselves through the situation by challenging those catastrophic thoughts.
(39:39):
And finally, if it feels too physically overwhelming, soothe yourself
using the sensors or jump in that cold shower.
Speaker 2 (39:48):
Thank you, Anastasia.
Speaker 1 (39:49):
Guys, Next week we will be tackling the right way
to say no to people you love and really dig
into the ways that we can help ourselves deal with
toxic family dynamics and relationships. In the meantime, if you
have any burning questions or want to share your story
with us, please get in contact with us we would
love to hear from you. There are a few ways
to get in touch. Follow the links in the show.
Speaker 5 (40:11):
Notes, and remember, while I am a psychologist, this podcast
isn't a diagnostic tool, and the advice and ideas we
present here should always take into account your personal medical history.
The executive producer of But Are You Happy is Naima Brown.
Speaker 2 (40:29):
Tarlie Blackman is our senior producer.
Speaker 5 (40:32):
Sound design and editing by Jacob Brown.
Speaker 2 (40:35):
I'm a Shany Dante, and I'm.
Speaker 5 (40:37):
Doctor Anatheja Haronus. If this conversation brought up any difficult
feelings for you, we have links for more resources in
the show notes around the topics we discussed today. You
can also reach out to organizations like Beyond Blue or
Lifeline if you're wanting more immediate support.
Speaker 2 (40:54):
Thanks for listening.
So much.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
You're listening to a MoMA Maya podcast. Mamma Mayer acknowledges
the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast
is recorded.
Speaker 3 (00:18):
On Hello, no filter listeners. This is Naima Brown, the
executive producer of this show and also of But Are
You Happy? And I am very excited to bring you
the first episode of the new season of But Are
You Happy? Hosted by a Shawne Dante and doctor Anastasia Heronus.
Ashawnee and Anastasia will be bringing you the self development
and mental health conversations that we know you want that
(00:41):
you've asked us for about everything from worry spirals anxiety,
to why you keep dating the wrong person, to how
to spot the narcissist in your life so many more topics.
We know you're gonna like it. Enjoy this first episode
and please like and follow But Are You Happy wherever
you listen to podcasts.
Speaker 4 (01:00):
Due to circumstances that were completely in my control and
actually pretty predictable based on my past behavior, I will
be spiraling for the next week or so.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Anyone needs anything, I'm God, poor mother Mia.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
I'm your host, as Shani Dante. Welcome to But Are
You happy because no another personality quiz won't fix you.
Speaker 5 (01:21):
And I'm doctor Anastagia Hernis a clinical psychologist passionate about
happiness and mental health. Now, do you ever get stuck
thinking about a hypothetical situation that isn't really happening and
asking yourself a bunch of questions that make you more
and more stressed. You've probably found yourself in a stress spiral.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
If you've listened to this show before, my voice may
not be familiar. I'm a mental wellbeing and self development leader.
I'm Australian fore Lunkan, and I'm constantly on a journey
of learning more about my.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
Culture and my passion.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
And you could say purpose in life right now is
all around empowering teenage girls and young women.
Speaker 5 (02:01):
And I'm an academic and author. Most recently i published
a book called The Dopamine Brain. So my whole career
focus really is about how to help people develop new
habits to optimize their mental health.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
We're going to be shifting gears to bring you what
you told us you wanted conversations with an expert about
the things that you are thinking about, working on, struggling through,
or really just curious about and that's where you Doctor
Anastasia heronus, you come into the equation.
Speaker 5 (02:29):
We're going to be covering so many relevant topics like
how to stop dating the wrong person, how to say
no to the people we love, and how to actually
quieten down that voice in our head when it's being
really mean to us.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
In each episode, you'll be getting all of Doctor Anastasia's
wisdom and knowledge, along with her clear takeaways specific guidance
for how you can apply this information to your lives.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
Right now, as you may.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
Have guessed, we're kicking this season off with the topic
that we know so many of us can struggle with,
including myself, anxiety, worry and getting called in those stress spirals.
Speaker 5 (03:09):
Now, this is something so many of my clients have
been dealing with lately, and you might be.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
Two, All right, let's jump in, okay, on the staga,
How do we actually know if we're anxious?
Speaker 2 (03:27):
How does it show up?
Speaker 5 (03:28):
Anxiety is a massive topic. There's so much for us
to talk about here, and it really does exist on
a spectrum of experiences. It's one of the most common
things actually that a lot of my clients are facing
at the moment. And if we put this kind of
in the context of Aussies around the country. About three
million Australians actually live with anxiety. It's about one in
(03:49):
four of us will experience problematic anxiety at some point
in our lives.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
That's a wild stat and just goes to show how
common it is. And we'd love to kind of unpack
anxiety because I feel like it does get.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
A really bad rap. Yeah, it's so common.
Speaker 5 (04:04):
Yes, anxiety gets a bad rap. It doesn't feel good, right,
And none of us like to feel anxious, and so
it's sort of classified broadly as one of these bad emotions,
an emotion that we want to get rid of. We
don't want to feel anxious, so how do we get
rid of it? But actually, anxiety, along with every other emotion,
serves a really important function all emotions. It's important for
(04:28):
us to think about them as sources of information. They're
like data points. They give us information about ourselves, about
the world, about the environment around us. So I think
it's crucial for us to be able to lean into
the information that an emotion actually gives us. Now, if
(04:48):
we circle back to anxiety specifically, the function of anxiety
is to essentially be the body's smoke detector and smoke alarm, right,
So anxiety is giving us the message that there might
be some sort of danger or threat in the environment
that we need to be aware of and perhaps then
(05:09):
do something to protect ourselves.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
It's really great that you're unpacking this because I feel
like what I'm hearing is anxiety can actually be helpful
as well at times, which is very different to I
would say what we naturally have our definition of anxiety.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
We want to shame it.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
There's a stigma around it, we don't want to talk
about it, we want to push it away. Yet what
I'm hearing is it is actually giving us more information about,
you know, the context of the situation that might be playing out.
So in saying that, like, how do you differentiate between
when anxiety is helpful and unhelpful?
Speaker 5 (05:44):
Anxiety will always show up in all of us throughout
our life, so we can't get rid of it completely.
So I think this question about helpful versus unhelpful anxiety
is really important. Unhelpful anxiety is when we experience anxiety
that's out of context. So let me explain what I
(06:04):
mean by that. If we experience anxiety in a situation
that doesn't warrant us to be anxious. That's going to
be unhelpful for us. So if we're sitting in the
podcast studio right now talking and all of a sudden,
a big grizzly bear runs through the studio, we're going
to feel anxious, Right, normal natural emotion. We want to
feel anxious in that situation because anxiety is going to
(06:26):
prompt us to get up and run out of this place. Right.
Helpful anxiety so unhelpful. Anxiety sends us a message which
makes us overestimate the likelihood things are going to go wrong.
So I think this is a great episode for us
to be starting with and talking about. But to answer
your question, how does anxiety show up? I'm actually going
(06:46):
to use a client of mine. We're going to call
her Catherine for not actually her name, but to be anonymous,
we'll call her Catherine. She had to do a lot
of public speaking for her work and in her role,
but would get this crippling, overwhelming fear of getting on
stage and making a full of herself and saying the
wrong thing. Now, there was no history of her ever
(07:08):
really doing that. She was generally pretty fine with her
public speaking, and even if she did kind of get
on stage and say something a little wrong. It wasn't
kind of the end of the world. So anxiety makes
us overestimate that things will go wrong, But it does
another thing. It also makes us underestimate our ability to
cope if things do go wrong, because I don't have
(07:31):
a magic wand to say that Catherine will never get
on stage and never make a full of herself. Right,
there is a world in which that could happen. So
there is a chance. It's probably a small chance, but
there is a chance. But anxiety makes us underestimate our
ability to cope if that happens. So if Catherine got
on stage and completely forgot what she was meant to
be saying in her presentation, it would feel pretty crappy,
(07:52):
like it wouldn't be a nice experience for her. The
crowd would probably be like, oh, she's forgot what she's
meant to say. But in reality, it's a situation she
could cope with. She'd just walk off, take a breath,
grab her notes, come back on the stage, keep going.
Probably no one ever thinks about it again. So that's
an example of where anxiety can be unhelpful for us,
because all it was doing was making Catherine feel completely
(08:14):
overwhelmed and stressed when she didn't really need to.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
I really love this too, because it kind of ties
back to your statistic that you've named before and how
common it is. But also what I'm hearing is that
even though it's common, anxiety can show up in different ways.
So I like that you're kind of giving us the
listeners different ideas of what that could potentially look like.
Speaker 5 (08:35):
Yes, And the reason it is so common is because
from a biological prehistoric perspective, anxiety was crucial for the
survival of the species, if we remember, it serves evolutionary
function to protect us. It's just that nowadays we live
in a world, in a society, especially if you live
in here in Australia, where we don't need to be
(08:57):
as alert for threats and dangers. But emotions exist in
a very primal part of the brain, so we feel
those emotional experiences much more and that anxiety much more
than actually need to given how our life and society
functions these days.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
So what about a stress spiral, Like, what exactly is
a stress spirl?
Speaker 2 (09:18):
And how can you tell if you're caughting one?
Speaker 5 (09:20):
I love this because a stress spiral is not necessarily
a clinical technical term that I would use, but it
is definitely a term that many of my clients will
use right in sort of pop culture, and when people
colloquially talk about anxiety, they will talk about being in
a stress spiral. And so I guess what people are
getting at is this idea of getting deeper and deeper
(09:44):
in an experience. Stress Again, a normal natural emotion that
will all experience at some point in time when we're
feeling overwhelmed with some sort of pressure. But what can
happen is we can get caught further and further in
that experience, which ultimately makes it more and more intense.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
So does that mean in a way with stress spirals?
Because you mentioned and I hear it all the time.
It is thrown around a lot in pop culture. So
what isn't a stress viral?
Speaker 5 (10:12):
Then that's a good alternative question. What isn't a stress viral?
What isn't a stress viral is when we experience stress
in a way that meets the expectation of a situation.
So if I have an impending deadline for work on
Friday and it's now Thursday and I haven't got it
(10:35):
almost done, stress is going to naturally come about, and
stress can actually be a really useful thing in that situation.
Because I don't know if you've ever experienced this, but
a little bit of healthy stress helps us get things done.
Speaker 2 (10:46):
Very true can confirm.
Speaker 5 (10:48):
So healthy stress actually motivates us to meet the deadline,
to get done what we need to do. Unhealthy stress
debilitates us.
Speaker 1 (10:59):
It's really interesting because I'm hearing some common themes. Even
with anxiety. What we're hearing is it's helpful and unhelpful.
But also with stress, it's helpful and also unhelpful.
Speaker 5 (11:08):
So and that goes with all emotions. All emotions can
be helpful when they fit the context and when we
experience them in a way that feels manageable. But if
we experience them too intensely or too much or for
too long, they can become really debilitating in our lives.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
So is there a difference between anxiety in the body
as we feel it versus thinking anxious thoughts.
Speaker 5 (11:31):
Yes, absolutely, they're absolutely related. They're connected. So our thoughts,
our thoughts are very powerful. They certainly influence how we feel.
So if I'm worrying, if I'm going through that anxious
thinking process, I'm more likely to feel anxiety in the body.
But one of the things I interestingly find in the
(11:51):
work that I do with clients is that people tend
to fall into one of two categories. Some people will
come into the therapy room and they'll be able to
describe to me in great detail the physical experience of anxiety.
So they'll tell me that get anxious, and they'll say,
I feel my heart racing, I get sweaty, I feel dizzy,
(12:13):
I feel like I'm going to faint, my legs feel wobbly,
and I feel like I can't stand up anymore. So
they can give me all the details about what it
physically feels like in their body. Other people can come
in the room and tell me great details about what
they're thinking, their thought processes, and the things that they're
worrying about. And ultimately, what we want to help people
(12:34):
do is have an awareness of both the thought processes
that can be quite anxious in nature and the physical
experience of anxiety in the body.
Speaker 1 (12:46):
So what about a panic attack, What exactly is that.
Speaker 5 (12:49):
A panic attack is different to anxiety. We could sort
of summarize it as a much more intense experience of
anxiety in and of itself. So a panic attack tends
to last not more than ten minutes on average. And
when people experience a panic attack, they have this overwhelming
(13:11):
physical experience of those anxious sensations, so really intense heart racing, sweating,
feeling shaky, feeling like they're going to faint. And often
people actually describe it as a feeling where they think
they're having a heart attack or they think they might
be dying. Like it's actually quite a scary experience for
those who do have panic attacks.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
Yeah, I feel like panic attacks. It's something I feel.
I hear all the time with people who've experienced personally
or observed someone else that they love going through one,
and it can be quite confronting in a way.
Speaker 5 (13:45):
And the thing is, often these panic attacks can feel
like they come out of nowhere. There isn't always a
clear trigger, So it's not necessarily like, you know, Catherine
about to go on stage, worrying about is she going
to make a fool out of herself Pete. Someone might
literally just be sitting in the office and all of
a sudden they get this onslaught of anxious symptoms and
(14:05):
they have a panic attack. Sometimes the trigger can be
outside in the environment. But actually sometimes it can be
an internal sensation. So for example, if I've had a
couple of cups of coffee today, maybe a few too
many cups of coffee, well, my heart might be racing
a little bit faster than it usually would, and that's
(14:25):
because of the stimulant from the caffeine. But someone who's
prone to panic attacks might be sitting in the office
and goof, my heart's racing. Heart racing equals anxiousness and anxiety.
What's happening in my life right now that I'm anxious about?
And so then they'll start spiraling down that rabbit hole,
whereas it's actually just a physical sensation that they've picked
(14:47):
up on and honed in on a bit too much.
Speaker 1 (14:50):
So does that mean because what I'm hearing panic attacks,
it's definitely a really big it's a body sensation.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
It's quite sounds quite severe.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
So then what's the difference between just feeling anxiety in
your body versus I'm having a panic attack.
Speaker 5 (15:05):
I think it comes back to the usefulness of the experience.
So when someone has a panic attack, it's for those
ten or so minutes it's debilitating. It feels like they
cannot function. People might often have to actually leave the
room and excuse themselves, whereas anxiety in and of itself
might be uncomfortable, but we can still function in the world.
(15:26):
It can motivate us to take an action that's helpful
for us.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
So it's a bit like there's a bit of a spectrum,
but if it's anxiety in the body, there's somewhat more
control around how you can move through it.
Speaker 5 (15:38):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
Yeah, so you've told us a bit about Catherine with
her fear of public speaking. What are some of the
other themes you're noticing in your clinical work.
Speaker 5 (15:46):
Anxiety shows up in so many different ways for people.
But actually, interestingly, one of the recent themes I've seen
is this anxiousness and worry about big picture kind of
global events, So things like worrying about wars, worrying about
climate change, worrying about politics and how politics are going
(16:09):
to influence the future. And often in these cases they're
issues that are so big that one person, you know,
can't necessarily change them. So there's this theme of anxiety
coming through the clinic room where people are feeling really
quite overwhelmed and sometimes also a little bit hopeless, kind
of at the state of affairs in the world at
(16:30):
the moment. So that's one thing I've seen more of,
particularly with climate change. Young people are really worried about
and wanting to talk about climate change at the moment.
But another one is cost of living. Things have become
so expensive at the moment. We're certainly in a cost
of living crisis, and that can range from people worrying
(16:51):
about how they're going to, you know, afford to buy
a house one day in the future if that's one
of their goals, all the way down to do I
have enough money to buy groceries this week?
Speaker 1 (17:00):
I mean, the cost of living example is so relatable
and I think even for me personally. Once I left
high school, I went straight into university and then went
down that traditional path, but then I decided to get
into the startup world, so I started the flourish journey,
which I'm so incredibly proud of.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
But in saying that, you.
Speaker 1 (17:21):
Know, startup life, you don't really have a very stable income,
which means you can't really secure alone for a home,
And to be honest, when you're in your early twenties,
you don't really.
Speaker 2 (17:29):
Think about those things.
Speaker 1 (17:30):
You think that, oh, that's a ten year problem. But
fast forward, you know, I'm thirty three now. It feels
like society tells you, oh, you need to have a
house and have all the things set up.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
By thirty and that weighs on me.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
I feel like I feel like I am behind, even
though it's so easy to look at the highlight reels
on Instagram and know that it is the highlight reels,
but you still get sucked into it. So it's definitely
something that weighs on me. I'm not sure if that's
something you can relate to as well.
Speaker 5 (17:57):
Absolutely, this idea of kind of financially where we should
be at any point in our life and how much
we should have saved or what we should have done
with that money, is you know, something I can relate
to as well. But as I said, like a lot
of people, a lot of younger people are kind of
thinking about this and worrying about it as well.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
Yeah, I feel like there's a lot of shame around
talking about money, right, and so often we feel like
we're alone in it, or we feel like we're the
poorest friend out of everyone.
Speaker 5 (18:22):
And the starts speak to the opposite, right, So so
many people are actually struggling financially. And I was actually
looking at a report that came out last year from
Mission Australia and it surveyed almost twenty thousand people and
a particularly young cohort. Right, So these were fifteen to
nineteen year olds, and what they found is that fifty
five percent, so more than half, were significantly worried about
(18:46):
and had anxiety about their financial security. And I was
just blown away when I read that, because I was like,
fifteen to nineteen year olds, like we should be worried about.
Fifteen is like you know, the fight that you've had
with your friends at school, and like you're going to
sit with at lunch and maybe studying for tests, not
financial security for your future.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
After this short break, duck down a stage is going
to teach you the five minute method to help you
break out of an anxiety spiral and stop an anxiety attack.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
In its tracks.
Speaker 1 (19:20):
At Asasia, I want to ask you for two techniques today. First,
I want you to tell us what we can do
for ourselves where we find ourselves spirally, and what should
we do for someone else.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
Let's start with ourselves.
Speaker 5 (19:34):
So the technique and the strategies that I'm going to
give you today are based on a type of therapy
called cognitive behavior therapy or CBT for short, and it
has the evidence behind it. It's sort of the gold
standard therapeutic approach that we would use for someone who
is experiencing anxiety. It's what I used with Catherine when
(19:57):
she was worried about getting on stage and doing her
public speaking. So what I first recommends to people, and
this is going to sound really basic, but bear with me,
is stop as a first step, just stop, take a moment,
take a breath, take a pause. For us to be
able to do kind of anything effective for ourselves, we
(20:19):
first need to be able to just stop and take
a breath and ground ourselves in the moment.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
It's really interesting because it can sound really basic, but
also it can be really hard when you're in it
so deeply.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
It's hard to stop.
Speaker 5 (20:34):
Yes, absolutely, And so I say to people, just like physically, stop,
don't take another step, don't say another word, you know, metaphorically,
even if you're sort of in a situation where you
are in a meeting at work or something, imagine yourself stopping,
but just kind of take that moment, take that pause,
take that breath, because once we've done that we're in
a better position to help ourselves through the next few steps.
(20:57):
So once we've stopped, we want to take a moment
to think about our thinking, reflect on our thoughts, actually
notice what our brain and our mind is telling us.
We were saying earlier that the mind is so powerful,
our thoughts are so powerful, and they certainly influence us
(21:19):
to feel particular ways. But not everything that we think, well,
not everything that we tell ourselves is actually true. We
all engage in unhelpful patterns of thinking. We might catastrophize,
we might be quite black and white now thinking, we
might just jump to conclusions. We do all these sort
(21:41):
of thought patterns quite naturally, but they can actually be
really unhelpful for us. So if I circle back to Catherine,
as I was saying, she would be very fearful of
getting on stage, and her brain would be telling her,
you're going to make a full of yourself. You're going
to stuff up, you're going to forget what you have
to talk about, and then you'll have to run off
stage and everyone will be talking about it for the
(22:02):
next two weeks at work. So she was telling herself
all these unhelpful things that probably weren't actually going to happen,
weren't very true and weren't based on any kind of
history of that actually happening to her. So it's really
important for us to be able to identify what is
my brain actually telling me so that I can then
examine A is it true? And B is it helpful?
Speaker 1 (22:27):
I really like that moment of pause, and essentially we're
kind of zooming out to see what are we thinking
and if it is helpful or not helpful.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
And I find even journaling.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
Journaling is such a great way to actually put it
down on paper and then getting to the bottom of it.
I know, for me, there's been times where I just
look at the things that I'm actually thinking about and
I can't help but kind of giggle to myself, being like,
this is actually ridiculous.
Speaker 2 (22:50):
I would never say this.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
To anyone else, but you know, we're all our own
worst in a critic.
Speaker 5 (22:55):
So I love the journaling because actually seeing those words
that we're internally saying to ourselves on paper, we put
that distance between ourselves and the thoughts, and so we
can see it with a bit more clarity. So once
we've stopped, we've reflected on our thoughts, we've identified that
maybe they're not that true or that helpful for the
(23:16):
situation that we're in. I then encourage people to ask themselves,
what about this situation is in your control and what's
out of your control? Because once we can identify what
is within our control, we can make active steps to
have agency over that and change the thing that's in
our control. Sometimes we get stuck being so anxious about
(23:39):
things that are ultimately out of our control that we
can't change, and that's really where worry becomes quite unhelpful
for us. So if we can focus on what's in
our control, we can take steps to action that and
create some change for ourselves.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
So what happens if you're too deep in the spiral
and you know the strategies you've just mentioned doesn't actually work.
Speaker 5 (24:00):
What do we do?
Speaker 2 (24:01):
Then?
Speaker 5 (24:03):
This is great because it's all well and good for
us to be able to think about our thinking. Yeah,
but if we're in a state of panic and distress
and complete overwhelm, that's actually a really hard thing to do.
So if we're at that eight, nine to ten out
of ten level of anxiety, I actually recommend that people
instead utilize the senses. Right, So there's two different ways
(24:27):
we can do this. One is going down a pathway
of what we call self soothing. So this is using
the senses in a way that's really comforting and nice
and kind to help bring down that level of stress
and anxiety to a level that feels more manageable. So
if we think across the senses, these might be things
(24:48):
like lighting a scented candle, smelling some incense, eating something
that tastes really lovely or nostalgic, you know, sipping on
a hot cup of tea or oha. So utilizing the
sensors in a way that's calming for the body. Tend
(25:09):
to have sensory preferences. So for me, I love touch.
If I don't feel good, my go to is it
doesn't matter how hot it is, put on a jumper.
I find it, like, you know, having a bit of
a hug put on the jumper, it's really comforting. Get
under the dona, anything that sort of is touching my
skin is really calming and soothing for me. I don't know,
a Shane, if you've got sensory preferences.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
I feel like, I mean outside of the matcha as well,
like food taste is really good, but also the senses,
so dim lighting, it's just so calming and it feels
like I'm in a spa, but I'm at home with
my fairy lights on.
Speaker 5 (25:44):
So yes, So the self soothing can be really effective
when we can't think our way out of anxiety, but
we want to physically do something to help regulate our anxiety.
Self soothing is great. The other option that utilizes the
sensors is a more intense version of using the sensors,
(26:04):
and this provides a bit of a shock to the system.
So if there is one strategy I could give someone
to help manage their anxiety when it's at that ten
out of ten peak, it's utilizing cold cold water, really
frozen ice packs from the freezer, a bag of frozen peas,
(26:25):
whatever you've got that's cold. It is incredibly effective on
a physiological level for reregulating our body. One of the
things we try to do is actually mimic what we
call the deep dive reflex. So this is something that
all mammals actually have, and it's ultimately this idea that
if you jumped into a swimming pool full of cold water,
(26:46):
you would naturally hold your breath. Your blood pressure changes,
your heart rate changes, and this all happens because your
body wants to conserve energy, and we can mimic this
to our advantage. So I encourage people, if they're feeling
really overwhelmed, jump in a cold shower. It doesn't feel pleasant,
it takes a bit of bit it gots to get
(27:08):
in there sometimes unless you someone who regularly does cold plunges.
But it can be hard but incredibly effective. If you
imagine yourself ten out of ten anxiety, you know, hot, flush,
heart racing, sweating, dizzy, and you jumped in a cold
swimming pool or a cold shower, you would pretty quickly
(27:28):
physically feel a fair bit better. Doesn't solve the problem
of what's causing the anxiety, but physically it helps reregulate
us so that we're in a better position to be
able to manage the anxious situation that we're faced with.
If you can't jump in the cold shower, I say,
get the ice packs out of the freezer, bag of
(27:48):
frozen peas, whatever you've got that's cold in the freezer,
and put it over your head and temples and around
the eyes. This is the really kind of effective place
we want to place the frozen object. But also if
you're out and about and you don't have a freezer
bag or a cold shower handy, get into woolies, go
into the freezer, open that door and feel the blast
(28:11):
of the cold. So if you're in the car, turn
on the air con blast it into your face. Your
face is really effective for trying to regulate with the cold.
So it's my go to tip.
Speaker 1 (28:22):
Wow, you know, I'm so surprised that cold actually helps
because I know how much it can make me stress,
Like I assumed that it would spike my cortisol levels.
And yeah, I'm just glad that there's two options here.
I'm going to take the soothing route, not sure.
Speaker 5 (28:39):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (28:39):
I'm not sure about the cold therapy.
Speaker 5 (28:41):
But the stress is probably more before you're actually is
my thoughts. That's the anxiety.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
Okay, cool, it's all clear. We're getting the breakthroughs here.
This is great.
Speaker 1 (28:53):
So what if none of the techniques that you've talked
about still isn't working and someone's stealing really deep emotional pain,
like is that when they should seek a psychologist or
a professional to get medication.
Speaker 5 (29:06):
Potentially, if people feel like therapy and these kinds of
strategies aren't working for them. That's definitely a situation where
we would encourage someone to go talk to either a
GP or a psychiatrist. Both can prescribe medications to be
able to talk through what the different options are. There
are so many different medications when it comes to managing
(29:29):
anxiety and our mental health that it is really important
to see a professional to talk through what the different
options are. But what I would say is that medication
can be incredibly helpful, but is best when it's done
in conjunction with therapy because often what we find is
that if people just go on medication for a period
of time, when they eventually decide to come off it,
(29:52):
if they haven't addressed what the underlying concerns and issues are,
they're probably very quickly going to go back to feeling anxious.
So the therapy and the medication hand in hand can
be a fantastic combination for people.
Speaker 1 (30:05):
So you've just shared with us some really great techniques
around how to manage anxiety and panic attacks for ourselves,
But what about someone else?
Speaker 5 (30:13):
If we're trying to help someone else who is feeling
anxious and overwhelmed, the first thing I would recommend is
don't panic yourself don't take on that other person's anxiety
and panic and feel anxious or panicky yourself. Stay calm
and stay with them. What I mean by stay with
them is yes, physically stay with them, but emotionally, stay
(30:36):
with them. Attune to what they're feeling, Listen to them,
hear them, validate them. Everyone wants to feel heard in life,
and so often it's the case that if someone's worried
about something, we want to jump in with a fix totally.
We want to say don't worry, everything will be fine,
and probably never in the history of someone feeling anxious
(30:56):
as that actually helps. Like if you say don't worry,
everything's going to be okay, the person doesn't walk away
being like, ah, okay, great, right. If we feel overwhelmed
and anxious, we want to feel heard. We want to
feel understood. So that's sometimes the biggest thing that we
can give people, being there with them physically, but emotionally
being with them.
Speaker 1 (31:17):
Yeah, it's so it's so hard to do sometimes, I feel,
especially with women, we're so empathetic and when someone we
love that is struggling, it's easy to just subconsciously.
Speaker 2 (31:27):
Take that on.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
And I really like that you're helping us to separate ourselves,
being like, it has nothing to do about you or
how you showed up. It's purely what does that person need.
Speaker 5 (31:37):
Right now, really focusing on that person and being there
for them, attuning to them. So once we've done that,
the next thing is moving into helping them through it. Right,
But we don't want to assume that we know what
that person wants or needs right ask them, ask them
if there's anything that they know that's helpful for them
in these moments. They might be able to say to you, yeah,
(32:01):
you know what, I just need you to talk to
me about something else. Just distract me, tell me what
you've been watching on TV lately, Like, let's just have
a conversation about something else to get me through this.
So people are often well resourced at knowing what they need,
and that's where we can jump in and help give
that to them. If, however, someone doesn't know what they
need in that moment, if we ask them and they're
(32:23):
not able to tell us, that's where we can offer
some suggestions and some solutions. And sometimes the simplest one
is actually us helping someone get out of the space
that they're in and just going outside taking a break,
grabbing a cup of coffee, moving, moving the body, and
moving out of their physical surroundings and space in that moment.
Speaker 1 (32:45):
Okay, Anastasia, Because I'm someone that is always about having
a growth by set. Next time I'm going to woolies
or calls, I've got to go into the freezer aisle,
grab those frozen peas and stuck up by freezer just
for you.
Speaker 2 (32:59):
I'll report back on how it goes.
Speaker 1 (33:06):
After this short break, Anastasia is going to solve the
personal problem that one of you, our listeners sent us.
Speaker 2 (33:13):
Stay with us, Berb Hereb, Bierb.
Speaker 3 (33:18):
I'm having a serious crisis.
Speaker 5 (33:20):
BRB having a crisis.
Speaker 2 (33:23):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (33:23):
I am really excited to debut this segment, which will
be bringing you in every episode of But are you happy?
This is where we respond to the dilemmas or questions
that you our listeners, have sent us, and Anastasia will
provide her best advice. Our first dilemma comes from Sydney.
Speaker 4 (33:40):
So I'm in my late twenties and I feel like
every conversation I have with my friends lately is honestly
such a drainer, because all they ever want to talk
about is whether or not they're going to buy property,
whether or not to pro create, or whether or not
to get married, And honestly, I just don't really care
about any of those things. But for whatever reason, there's
(34:00):
still this weird pressure when you get to your late
twenties where you feel like you're in the paniciars, and
you do need to make all of these big decisions
that are going to set you up for like the next.
Speaker 5 (34:09):
Time ten years or more.
Speaker 4 (34:10):
Maybe what can I do to feel like I can
live the fun life that I want to live, but
also set myself up the future.
Speaker 5 (34:16):
And not feel stressed about what's around the corner. You
are not alone in this. I've heard many people share
similar stories about things that they're worrying about. This idea
of how do I have the life I want now?
How do I have the fun that I want now
and set myself up for the future as well? And
I wish I could waive the magic wand and give
(34:37):
a really short, simple solution to this, but unfortunately it's
not that simple. It's all about balance, right, and as humans,
we have a tendency to want to find a single
answer to a problem. But in reality, I don't think
there is a simple answer here. Life is complex. We
(34:58):
are complex, and so it's always about how do we
find balance between the fun and the enjoyment in the
short term with balancing those long term goals that we
might have. Now, if you're worried about making decisions that
you might regret in the future, I'd encourage you to
(35:18):
reflect on what your values are. So we all have values,
we might not always be aware of them, so it's
important to take some time out to actually reflect on
what our values are. But essentially, values are the things
that are most important to us in life. We can
think of them as like a compass, a compass that
(35:40):
directs us down a particular path in life, and from
those values we can set goals and tasks and activities
for ourselves that feel really meaningful and values aligned. The
research tells us that when people live their life in
alignment with their values, they have greater overall life satisfaction
(36:00):
and contentment. So being able to reflect on those values
can be a really key part of helping us make
decisions for ourselves. And having that clarity around value can
help us with making decisions about some of these things
that feel really big in life. You know, should I
have kids, should I buy a house, what should I
be planning for in my thirties, etc. Having a knowledge
of our values can help us make those decisions that
(36:23):
can sometimes feel really overwhelming, and also help us reflect
on are those values my own or I think what
society has told me, you know, should be important to me,
because that will influence our decision making as well. Is
it that society has told me that owning a home,
or having kids, or being at this point in my
career should be important to me? Or is that actually
(36:45):
what my values are?
Speaker 1 (36:47):
I really love it because it's essentially doing your values
is getting to know yourself even more, which is important And.
Speaker 5 (36:55):
For any of the listeners out there, if you haven't
ever done this values reflection, have a go, get out
a pen and a paper, sit down at a desk
and just write out a list of the things that
are important to you. Write single words, right, So these
are things like family, health, adventure, creativity, honesty. Right, So
(37:16):
there's single words. It's not like I value having a
coffee in the morning. What is it that the coffee
in the morning gives me? It's my moment of peace,
a value piece. I value enjoyment in life, you know,
what is it that that thing gives me? What's the
value underneath it? Write them out.
Speaker 1 (37:33):
I really love that process because it's helping us to
look at, Okay, what are the things that I essentially
love doing and what are the things that.
Speaker 2 (37:39):
I hate doing?
Speaker 1 (37:41):
And then underneath that is where we'll discover our values.
Speaker 5 (37:44):
Absolutely, And then for any of the listeners who want
to take it one step further, I'm giving a lot
of homework here, but reflect on am I actually living
my life aligned with these values? So, for example, if
I have the value of creativity, Okay, it's all well
and good to know that I value creativity, But am
I doing anything creative in my life? Because having the
(38:06):
value doesn't necessarily mean that we're living out the value.
So if you can identify any mismatch, that's a really
great place where you can make some positive, healthy changes
for yourself.
Speaker 1 (38:18):
So if we have clarity around our values, would that
reduce our anxiety?
Speaker 5 (38:24):
It absolutely can. If we know what our values are,
we feel better equipped to make decisions in life. And
so often, you know, anxiety can come from that feeling
of being overwhelmed, like Courtney was, with what she should
do in life and how she should live life. So
knowing our values can absolutely help us reduce anxiety and
(38:46):
feel more kind of satisfaction and contentment in life.
Speaker 2 (38:51):
All right, everyone, let's get into our homework.
Speaker 1 (38:53):
Let's get our values done Atastasia, we have covered a
lot of ground in today's episode.
Speaker 2 (39:09):
Can you give us a recap?
Speaker 1 (39:10):
We want the post it note on the bathroom mirror reminders, please.
Speaker 5 (39:15):
Absolutely, okay. First up, anxiety serves a necessary function in
the brain and body. Second, sometimes anxiety can get a
bit too intense or a situation doesn't warrant us to
be anxious. Third, if that's the case, we can mentally
talk ourselves through the situation by challenging those catastrophic thoughts.
(39:39):
And finally, if it feels too physically overwhelming, soothe yourself
using the sensors or jump in that cold shower.
Speaker 2 (39:48):
Thank you, Anastasia.
Speaker 1 (39:49):
Guys, Next week we will be tackling the right way
to say no to people you love and really dig
into the ways that we can help ourselves deal with
toxic family dynamics and relationships. In the meantime, if you
have any burning questions or want to share your story
with us, please get in contact with us we would
love to hear from you. There are a few ways
to get in touch. Follow the links in the show.
Speaker 5 (40:11):
Notes, and remember, while I am a psychologist, this podcast
isn't a diagnostic tool, and the advice and ideas we
present here should always take into account your personal medical history.
The executive producer of But Are You Happy is Naima Brown.
Speaker 2 (40:29):
Tarlie Blackman is our senior producer.
Speaker 5 (40:32):
Sound design and editing by Jacob Brown.
Speaker 2 (40:35):
I'm a Shany Dante, and I'm.
Speaker 5 (40:37):
Doctor Anatheja Haronus. If this conversation brought up any difficult
feelings for you, we have links for more resources in
the show notes around the topics we discussed today. You
can also reach out to organizations like Beyond Blue or
Lifeline if you're wanting more immediate support.
Speaker 2 (40:54):
Thanks for listening.
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