Minister Katy Gallagher on Grief, Power, and the Moment Her Life Changed Forever

Minister Katy Gallagher carries deep, personal grief, and she's still fighting for the future of women.

Australia’s Minister for Finance, Women and the Public Service, Katy Gallagher joins Kate for a candid and deeply personal conversation about politics, motherhood, grief, and the quiet work of driving change at the highest levels of government.

From the heartbreaking loss of her partner to raising three children, one with complex needs, Katy shares how life experiences have shaped her political purpose and grounded her leadership style. She opens up about her biggest goal: ending violence against women and children within a generation, why financial security for women is essential to equality and what the finance portfolio really involves (hint: everything).

Kate and Katy talk about the challenge of engaging men and boys in the gender equality conversation and why men need to be part of the solution. They also unpack what it means to wield power responsibly - and why Katy thinks Australia’s democracy is something worth fiercely protecting.

Warm, insightful, and full of purpose, this is a conversation for anyone who wants a better, fairer Australia.

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CREDITS:

Guest: Katy Gallagher

Host: Kate Langbroek

Executive Producer: Naima Brown

Senior Producer: Bree Player

Audio Producer: Jacob Round

Video Producer: Josh Green

Recorded with Session in Progress studios.

Mamamia acknowledges the Traditional Owners of the Land we have recorded this podcast on, the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation. We pay our respects to their Elders past and present, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander cultures.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:10):
You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.

Speaker 2 (00:13):
Mama Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
that this podcast is recorded on.

Speaker 1 (00:18):
It was a doctor just saying to me, you're going
to have to snap out of it in like in
two months, you're going to have a baby and you
have to look after this baby, and you're in you
can't look after yourself, Like what are you thinking? And
it was that doctor speaking very bluntly to me that
made me kind of go, I have to get my
shit together.

Speaker 2 (00:43):
Katie Gallaher's life has been shaped by heartbreak and resilience.
She lost her first partner while she was pregnant, and
those early experiences of grief and raising a child taught
her about empathy, determination, and the kind of groundedness that
comes from living through real struggle. Politics wasn't something she

(01:08):
set out to do. Instead, it found her, but she
brought her whole self to it, shaped by life not ambition.
Through that journey, she's risen to hold some of the
most significant roles in the Albanese government Minister for Finance,
Minister for Women, Minister for the Public Service, Vice President

(01:28):
of the Executive Council and since twenty twenty five Minister
for Government Services. In this episode of No Filter, we
really get to know the woman behind the politician. Katie
shares the lessons she's learned, how her personal story informs
her approach to public service, and what it means to

(01:50):
undertake life with honesty, heart and a genuine desire to
make a difference. While I welcome you, Katie, thanks so much.
I am Katie, but I am not honorable, and you
are the honorable. You are the honorable Katie Gallaher. You

(02:12):
are the Minister for Finance, you are the Minister for Women,
Minister for the Public Service. Okay, I don't know what
any of that means, but I do know that you're
very busy and we're very lucky to have you.

Speaker 1 (02:26):
Well, just there's loads of busy women right around the country.

Speaker 2 (02:30):
But it's lovely to be here. Really. What does your
day look like? What have you done today?

Speaker 1 (02:38):
So today has been a pretty normal day. So lot
on I did. Started with a radio interview, jumped on
a plane to Sydney, done some meetings at different ends
of Sydney. So I've been marching around with a giant umbrella,
knocking in puddles and stuff and then I've come here.
So it's been a full day and lots of different

(03:00):
you know, lots of different subjects, different meetings. I did
an ABC News interview at one of my meetings, squash
that in. It's a very varied you know, there isn't
like a normal day, I think, but.

Speaker 2 (03:16):
The days are start at what time, oh, pretty early.

Speaker 1 (03:21):
If I'm not doing an early radio interview or TV interview,
I'd be talking with GYM or the PM or.

Speaker 2 (03:30):
Some colleagues pretty early.

Speaker 1 (03:31):
So I'm usually I get up and I'm just there's
no kind of lounging and having a you know, having
a sip of coffee or slowly waking up eyes open.
I'm not the option to snooze, not really. Occasionally, when
you do have a day where you can do that,
it is super nice luxury, it is, and you really
appreciate when you talk.

Speaker 2 (03:52):
About where you're traveling from, is that Canbra.

Speaker 1 (03:55):
Yeah, So I'm really fortunate in that regard. So when
Parliament's sitting, I'm Canberra based.

Speaker 2 (04:01):
And also born and raised in Canberra, which made me
think you really had no choice but to end up
in politics. Did you grow up immersed in that world.

Speaker 1 (04:16):
A little bit like my parents, but more from my
parents and their influence. Like my parents were both interested
in politics. My dad was a public servant, but my
mum was a community worker.

Speaker 2 (04:27):
That's Betsy, Yeah. And your dad Charles Charles. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (04:31):
And they had moved from the UK. They moved to
Canberra in the late sixties.

Speaker 2 (04:37):
And why did they choose Canberra.

Speaker 1 (04:39):
Well, as parently to do with my dad's asthma, so
that from the UK. I don't know why then Canberra
because it is freezing for dry, Yeah, it is.

Speaker 2 (04:51):
Dry, but very dry. In fact, it's so dry.

Speaker 1 (04:56):
The rain today in Sydney has been so nice. But yeah,
So they had moved. I think Australia was a place
of opportunity, away from far, away from their previous life.
And they just started together vine New Zealand. They actually
met on a boat going to New Zealand. Oh I
loved you ten pound poems. Was that that or after that?

(05:18):
It was? It was after that And they were just
separately going to New Zealand and met on the boat,
fell in love, lived for a while in New Zealand
and then.

Speaker 2 (05:29):
Moved to Canberra.

Speaker 1 (05:31):
And then you came along my sister in New Zealand
and then I came along shortly after that, so I
was born in nineteen seventy so yeah, they'd been in
Canberra about a year and my dad had a job
in the Parliamentary Library, so he was around politics. But
I never, I don't know, I never thought I would
be a politician.

Speaker 2 (05:50):
What did you think you would do? So you were
quite musical growing up? Yeah, I did. I did play
the cello.

Speaker 1 (05:58):
My mum wanted I think she really wanted us as
children to learn the piano and the cello or anything
any music. And I was I was kind of I
don't know, I wasn't a rebellious child. So you know,
your mum goes, Katie, Yeah, learning the cello, I was like,
oh okay, well okay, I'd go lugging this giant instrument around,

(06:18):
bigger than you.

Speaker 2 (06:19):
Sometimes I wish for a violin. Yeah, you know, I
played the violin horrendously. Well, I just.

Speaker 1 (06:25):
Loved the look of everyone walking around with their little
violin bags.

Speaker 2 (06:28):
Then that would be me and this thing. So at
what point did you so your mum, Betsy was I
think renowned for having a very active social conscience. Is
that right to and what how did that manifest in
your life?

Speaker 1 (06:45):
So, yeah, Mum was a big yeah, just involve. I
think she got to Canberra and she ended up having
four children under five. My two brothers came after Claire
and I and they were the first house in the street.
There was no services, no supports. She was from the UK.
I can't imagine how isolating that would be like to

(07:07):
get my head around that, so far from everything you
knew for young children, a husband that worked all the time,
in a street without any you know, she told me
you'd have to walk quite a long way to get
to the phone box and anyway.

Speaker 2 (07:21):
Sounded horrendous.

Speaker 1 (07:22):
But so she went about sort of building services and supports,
like getting women together, getting children together, and from that,
you know, she just became this kind of community dynamo
that if there wasn't something there, she would build it
or get other people to kind of create the social
infrastructure that helped people.

Speaker 2 (07:43):
And so I think for her, even.

Speaker 1 (07:45):
As we got older, she was always rescuing things, whether
it be animals or children, And so we grew up
with a lot of different animals and a lot of
different children in our house who she usually was trying
to give the mum a break to make that relationship work. Yeah,
we're never too sure what you were going to come
home to or who you were going to come home to.

(08:06):
And Dad was a very easy going persons because I
don't know how much he was consulted about any of this,
but you know, and it was back in the day
when nothing was regulated, so you could just go and say,
I'll take your kids for yes, you know, yes.

Speaker 2 (08:21):
Two weeks, three weeks. And you could have a dog, yes,
without it being registered with the council. And you could
have a cat that was allowed to go outside.

Speaker 1 (08:28):
Yes, you could have all that. We had, kangaroos, we
had sheep. It was all in our back garden. Yeah,
guinea pigs, mice, you know, you name it. We kind
of was the house where everything was happening.

Speaker 2 (08:40):
And so you had this template because I often think
parents is often an emphasis, and particularly I think for
women of you know, we like to say I tell
my children this, and I tell them that, and I
tell them they're self worth. And but what we learn
most from is what is modeled for us, I think.
And so through your mother you had this modeling of

(09:03):
if something didn't exist, you build it. And also you welcome, Yeah,
you welcome those who were in need. Absolutely. And then
at what point did young Kadi Gallaher go, I think
there's a life for me in politics. Well that sort
of happened accidentally. I did grow up.

Speaker 1 (09:25):
My dad was a much more introverted character, but he
still demonstrated sort of the same thing that the same
work mum did, but in different ways. So he was
a lifeline counselor and he was you know, he would
support prisoner families because we didn't have a prison in
the Act server runs. If you're a prisoner, you got
sent to New South Wales and.

Speaker 2 (09:45):
He would do a lot of work there.

Speaker 1 (09:47):
So they definitely demonstrated to me and my siblings it
wasn't enough to just exist in a society. You had
to participate, you know, you had to involve yourself, you
had to be a part of it. And so we
all grew up like that, like my sisters and nurse
you know, has spent her entire life caring for others
in a hospital, and I started in in community work,

(10:11):
so working with people with a disability and I loved that.

Speaker 2 (10:15):
So was that like social work or yeah, it was.

Speaker 1 (10:17):
It was like a community worker we would break with disability,
you know, care advocate, so I became a formal advocate
where you advocate on a person with the disabilities behalf.
So we were closing down sheltered workshops and big institutions
and it was a really kind of exciting work and

(10:37):
I loved that. Then you know, life happens, events happened.
I joined the Labor Party by then because I'd seen
things like the Disability Discrimination Act come into being, and
I knew that was because of a Labor government and
it was changing people's lives and that really excited me
and interested me.

Speaker 2 (10:56):
Who was in power then.

Speaker 1 (10:58):
That was under Bob Hawk, Yeah, and it was Susan Ryan,
who was kind of lead as a minister was leading that.
But again I'd put the two things together. I could
see how politics could change people's lives and in this
case for the better, and that interested me. And I'd
been at Union done a politics degree, so I understood politics,

(11:20):
but I hadn't joined a political party. But it was
at that point that I was like, that's where I belong.
That's the party that represents my values. And that's when
I joined that. But I just joined it as anyone
else you know, like a member. I never thought i'd
be a politician, but you know, life happens, and sometimes
you come to a big moment or a fork in

(11:42):
the road and life sent you on another path. You
weren't expecting it and you didn't seek it out.

Speaker 2 (11:49):
What was that moment for you?

Speaker 1 (11:50):
Well, that was when so my partner died in a
Yeah he at the time, yeah, yeah, So he was
very active in the labor party. He and I were
going to get married. I was pregnant with our baby.

Speaker 2 (12:05):
How old were you then?

Speaker 1 (12:06):
I was twenty seven, right, yeah, twenty six, probably twenty six,
twenty seven. And he would if you'd known us back then,
he would have been the front person in that, you know,
he would have been the active kind of I could
definitely imagine him as a politician. He was more extroverted, absolutely,

(12:28):
and yeah, just involved in everything, whereas I was your
average branch member, just going along having a nice glass
of wine, you know.

Speaker 2 (12:37):
Yeah. Yeah. And what was his interest? What was Brett's
interest in politics? Yeah?

Speaker 1 (12:44):
Well he was he was a big union guy. So
he he'd worked as a union officer, he'd worked for
the nurses union.

Speaker 2 (12:52):
Just before the accident.

Speaker 1 (12:53):
He was about to work with the Public Service Union,
so he'd very much come from a kind of workers'
rights you know, position Act you wish, Yeah, so the
equivalent in the Act. But he was well connected, you know,
and he was great with people, and he was enthusiastic,

(13:14):
and it was all the things that you can see
people working their way up through the labor party.

Speaker 2 (13:19):
He had all of that and obviously other personal attributes
as well that made you fall in love with him.

Speaker 1 (13:28):
Yeah, yeah, I mean interesting, you know, yeah, I mean
it's been a long time since he passed away, but yeah,
we were just like any other young couple in there,
you know.

Speaker 2 (13:39):
So you're age, everything's ascendant. Really, it's one of those
sweet spots in life. Both of you are on an
upward trajectory with each other and with your lives. I
did not know this about you, didn't you. I did
not know, And it explains I think so much of

(14:02):
how you're described, which is always very empathetic and someone
who has a very grounded understanding of life. And I
think that often that comes from people because they also
have an understanding of death. And that is what happened
with Brett. What happened. So thank you for that that's

(14:23):
very nice of you to say that.

Speaker 1 (14:25):
And there is something in experiencing death at a young
age that shapes you. I definitely think that is true.

Speaker 2 (14:34):
So Brett had ridden.

Speaker 1 (14:35):
He was a bike rider, like road bike rider, and
he and I had been down to essentially near was
in Mount Beauty, so around there Beautiful in what was
called the ord As Challenge.

Speaker 2 (14:50):
I think it's like a two hundred kilometer bike rade.
My husband has ridden. He's also a cyclist. Yeah, and
so when I was discovering this about you, it was chilling. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (15:02):
So he'd just done that race and we decided to
kind of take the slow road back to Canberra, which
was through the coast road, so up the south coast.

Speaker 2 (15:12):
So you're coming from the high country in Victoria exactly,
you're making your way back.

Speaker 1 (15:17):
Yeah, And we thought we'd have an extra night away,
so we stopped at Marimbula and for the night and
then we're going to stay. I think we were going
to stay a couple of nights and then head back
to Canberra. And he went out for a bike ride
that morning. So the first morning we were there and
we arranged to meet at the beach he would finish

(15:38):
his ride and have a swim. I would wait for
him at the beach and he just never showed up,
and you know, I had to go and try and
find him. Where it was before mobile phones, it was
before you know, it's a different world than what you
have now, where you can sort of track people and
trace and you know, because I thought, oh, maybe he's

(15:59):
got a flat tire, he's stuck on the roads, you know,
he's and there was no way of contacting me. And
so I went out looking for him and couldn't find him.
So I rang all the hostspits.

Speaker 2 (16:09):
How did you know where to start to look?

Speaker 1 (16:11):
Well, Mimenbial is pretty small, and I knew he was
going for about an hour.

Speaker 2 (16:16):
And a half, so i'd be along the coast, probably
around them.

Speaker 1 (16:18):
Yeah, And I thought i'd follow the main roads because
I think he would have been on those, like he
wouldn't have gone off on a track. And anyway, I
couldn't find him. I rang the hospitals. Nobody, you know,
the two kind of local hospitals. Nobody could help me there,
And so I just kept driving and driving, getting more

(16:39):
and more worried because time was, you know, was our
time to meet up had significantly elapsed, so I knew
something was wrong, and I turned on the local radio station.

Speaker 2 (16:51):
I heard on the radio that the.

Speaker 1 (16:54):
Police were looking for the relatives of a cyclist who'd
been killed earlier that morning, and that's how I found out.
So yeah, I mean, even when I talk about it now,
it's Abby, our.

Speaker 2 (17:06):
Daughter, who was amazing.

Speaker 1 (17:09):
I was about fourteen weeks pregnant, so it was reasonably early,
but people knew and we'd been sort of celebrating that.
It's about it's twenty eight years ago now almost twenty nine,
and yeah, it's still like when I talk through it,
I can still viscerally remember that day and how it was.

Speaker 2 (17:29):
And then how do you how do you transition out
of a period like that that is marked by so
much grief, grief for the loss of bread, grief for
the loss that you were going to have, the life
you were going to have. But at the same time,

(17:51):
you're pregnant with your first child. How was that? How
did you approach that?

Speaker 1 (17:58):
So I was terrible, Like, the real and honest answer
is I was terrible.

Speaker 2 (18:02):
I was.

Speaker 1 (18:05):
I've never I hope to never experience that again. But
I sunk into a very deep depression.

Speaker 2 (18:13):
So as you say.

Speaker 1 (18:14):
I'd gone from thinking, you know, this is my life,
I'm on this path, and all of a sudden something happens.
Brett was hit by a car and by someone who'd
had a restricted license as well, so I shouldn't have
actually been driving. So there was a lot of this,
a lot of this how could this happen? So I
went through that this is very awful, unfair, kind of

(18:39):
selfish grief, but I don't mean that in a negative way,
just kind of you're in that zone. And then I
think I sunk into a much deeper depression that actually
I needed to get help to get out of I
was I was in, you know, it wasn't I stopped eating,
I stopped drinking, I stopped communicating with anyone, and I
was pregnant.

Speaker 2 (18:56):
I ended up in hospital dehydrated.

Speaker 1 (18:59):
I ended up only being let out if I agreed
to see a psychiatrist. And then I got in the
high risk pregnancy clinic and they didn't know what to
do with me. So all of that happened, and in
the end, I went on antidepressants at the right time,
and that got me in reasonable shape, along with some

(19:20):
therapy and being left to myself. Really I moved into
a house by myself because I couldn't go back to
where we lived, and I just bunkered down.

Speaker 2 (19:30):
And where were your parents and your family in that period,
and your union family and your ALP family. So they
were all around.

Speaker 1 (19:39):
I mean Dad had passed away a couple of years
before that, and they were all wanting to help, but
I was so into my grief nobody really could. I had,
you know, friends would wait outside for me to open
the door, and I just wouldn't open the door because
I couldn't confront what was going on. Like I just
felt so sideswiped and it was so diffent, you know,

(20:03):
it was just unimaginable. And then to have people looking
at me and feeling sorry for me would tip.

Speaker 2 (20:08):
Me over the deep.

Speaker 1 (20:09):
And so I think that was really hard for my
family and friends because at that time they wanted to
help me a lot, and I couldn't accept their help.
I had to and I'm still a bit like this.
When something difficult happens, I have to work through it
myself to get out of it. And that's what happened,
with the help of some medication, and it was a
doctor just saying to me, you're going to have to

(20:31):
snap out of it in like, I don't know, in
two months time with your baby coming, you're going to
have a baby, and you have to look after this baby,
and you're in you can't look after yourself, Like what
are you thinking? And it was that doctor speaking very
bluntly to me that made me kind of go, I
have to get my shit together, like this is real

(20:53):
and I have to get myself together. And but I
didn't do any pre natal care.

Speaker 2 (21:00):
I didn't.

Speaker 1 (21:00):
I mean I didn't do anything about delivery, you know,
labor and delivery.

Speaker 2 (21:05):
Class So how to go to the classes? I couldn't.
You couldn't.

Speaker 1 (21:09):
You couldn't, So I knew nothing, which is probably better.

Speaker 2 (21:12):
And also because if you went into the classes and
you didn't have the man who was the father of
your baby with you, you would have to do so
much explaining that just the thought of that, yeah it's
not cropping. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (21:26):
So I didn't do any of that. I had no
connection to anything. And in fact, the day I went
into labor, I rang my sister and told her I
had a stomach ache, and she like, Katie, I think
you have more than a stomach ache, and went and
that's when it dawned on me, like I was so dislocated.
It's really odd. I don't know how to describe it. Anyway,

(21:48):
the minute that baby came out, I tell you, everything,
everything went up, you know everything, I just I had
something else.

Speaker 2 (21:57):
You return to yourself.

Speaker 1 (21:59):
Yeah, it was almost almost immediate. Like I was still
very lonely and on my own and wanting to do that,
but I had this amazing thing baby, and yeah, and
she was precious not just to me, but to Brett's family,
to my family. And even though it's a lot to

(22:21):
ask a little baby to do, she did a lot
of healing without knowing. She didn't know, she didn't know,
but she did. And she continues to be like that.

Speaker 2 (22:30):
And babies are like that anyway. When a baby comes
into your orbit, it's like staring at a fire. Everyone
just you can't help. Yeah, there's something magical about it.

Speaker 1 (22:44):
Totally and everyone, everyone almost felt like a whole Camber
rejoiced when he was born. And she was healthy and
gorgeous and brought a lot, you know, brought me back
back to the real world.

Speaker 2 (23:01):
After the break, Katie, She's house. Stepping back into the
real world was her unexpected pathway to politics. When you
came back to the real world, what was that process
for you?

Speaker 1 (23:18):
It was hard to kind of reintegrate still because you know,
I didn't like being the center of things and it
felt it just felt very exposed because of you know,
everyone knew your story. But a lot of people had
really helped me when I was unable to help myself.

Speaker 2 (23:36):
So the Labor Party locally had been enormous help. The
Union movement had.

Speaker 1 (23:41):
Been you know, things like helping you pay for funerals
and stuff like that you'd never made. You'd never even
thought about. People stepping in and helping getting legal advice,
you know, all the stuff that I needed to do
because of the situation that I was in, and so
they had been amazing. And when I did start getting
my got myself back together, I got back to work,

(24:02):
I needed to repay a bit of that I felt.
And that's what got me into politics.

Speaker 2 (24:07):
That's a long way of how I got it.

Speaker 1 (24:11):
Because then there was not enough women standing for election
in Canberra at the time. So this is for the
local assembly like this territory parliament, and a lot of
women didn't want to put their hands up and we
were trying to make sure we were getting women into politics,
and I'd been part of that just as a member,
and all of a sudden everyone was looking at.

Speaker 2 (24:32):
Me, going, well, hang on a minute, what are you doing.
Why can't you do it?

Speaker 1 (24:36):
And I was like, oh, I've got a lot on
But I realized also that if we wanted more women elected,
women had to put their hand up in the first place,
otherwise it wasn't going to change.

Speaker 2 (24:48):
So it wasn't just me.

Speaker 1 (24:49):
There was a group about eight of us that stood
as candidates in that election, and two of us got elected,
and I was one of them. Wow, And I was
told I wouldn't win, and I just needed to.

Speaker 2 (25:00):
Do it, go through the emotions, and you know, well,
it is one of those things I think politics that
often people will have a tilt at it, thinking well,
I'm not going to win this time time anyway. But
then at least I blooded myself and I know what
comes yeah next. But you actually I won by like you.

Speaker 1 (25:16):
One, I don't know by some It's a it's a
very complicated electoral system in the act called hair Clark
with Robson rotation. It's the same electoral system as Tasmania.
But this is like homo, Yeah, I was gonna say,
it's like a moro anyway, hard electoral system, hard to
get elected. I was told it wouldn't happen, but like

(25:39):
it was like seventy votes out of seventy thousand cars,
you know, like it was.

Speaker 3 (25:45):
I was.

Speaker 1 (25:46):
I basically scraped over the line and it was a
surprise to everyone, including other people in the parliament, none
of whom I knew.

Speaker 2 (25:56):
Like I was just like, oh, hi, Katie's I'm here.
I don't know what this is about.

Speaker 1 (26:00):
But yeah, and I would say the other great thing
because it is about putting yourself out there and that
that campaign was art for me. It was hard to
stand on the corner of street store, so.

Speaker 2 (26:14):
You really were like door knocking it introducing yourself and
that is hard. And so how did you sell yourself,
by the way, what was it that you were offering?

Speaker 1 (26:24):
Well, I guess it was I kind of campaigned on
the areas of strength that I felt I had. So
I had a young child, so I did a lot
of campaigning around childcare, you know, because it was sort
of issues that people could connect with authenticity to me
and the fact that we needed some women in the parliament.
We had some very regressive abortion laws in the Act

(26:47):
that had been bought in by some male members, and
like too many women, they were pretty offensive in terms of,
you know, having to stare at pictures of fetuses and
things like that before you were allowed to get medical assistance.
And so that motivated me as well. And there was
a big It had been a very male dominated parliament

(27:08):
and that election in two thousand and one changed that.

Speaker 2 (27:12):
A lot of women were elected, so.

Speaker 1 (27:13):
There was a very strong vote of women wanting to
see change happen in their parliament. And I think I
just happened to be one of those people in the
right place at the right time. And I was a
local too, and I think that probably helped me with
those seventy votes. Like you know, people go, oh, I
went to school with her, or I knew Betsy. I

(27:34):
bet Betsy was a bit of a vote puller. So
there was a bit of that going on as well.

Speaker 2 (27:39):
And so then so you've got how old's abby at
this point she was four. Then you embark on what's
the start of your political career? I mean, everything seems,
you know, self evident in retrospect, but at the time,
what did you think you were going to be doing
or how long did you think it was going to last.
I had no idea. I really didn't. I didn't know.

Speaker 1 (28:02):
How to speak publicly. I didn't know how to give
a speech.

Speaker 2 (28:05):
I didn't know. I was so unprepared for that job.
But do you also think that that's kind of a strength. Yeah,
I think in hindsight, But at the time, you know,
when we're all you just saw your shortcomings.

Speaker 1 (28:18):
And you know it's probably at my age. I was,
you know, just thirty, and I was like, there was
all these people more knowledgeable. So it's a bit of
that imposter syndrome that we all get from time to time.

Speaker 2 (28:29):
So it was a but yeah.

Speaker 1 (28:30):
But as it turned out, the fact that I wasn't
like that turned out to be a strength in terms
of certainly the support I got while I was there,
because I was there for about another four elections and ended.

Speaker 2 (28:42):
Up chief minister, which is a big job.

Speaker 1 (28:47):
Yeah, it's a mayor and other things in Cambra.

Speaker 2 (28:51):
Like, it is a big job. I don't want to
diminish it. It is a big job. It's a big job. Yeah,
And then what happened with you personally in that time?
So I guess I've always thought of politics as being
so consuming that there's not much opportunity for your personal

(29:11):
expressional love or romance or whatever. But I'm wrong, aren't I? Yes,
I've been very lucky.

Speaker 1 (29:19):
I mean, I think you know, to have a you know,
to experience love in a long lasting way, and to
experience that twice in a life, you are pretty fortunate.
So yeah, I met Dave through this will be funny,
but he worked at the Assembly in the kind of
public service side, not the political side, and that's how

(29:40):
I met him. But also because he had a beagle
and Abby and I had a beagle. Oh and so
we had this beagle catch up and that was our
first day, was to introduce the beagle.

Speaker 2 (29:51):
Hang on who suggested the beagle catch up? Because that
is the that's a ruse. If ever, I've heard one
for someone who liked someone. I know.

Speaker 1 (30:00):
It was pretty tragic, isn't it? When you think I
can't remember? It was just like, oh, so you've got
a bagel, I've got a beagle. Let's get the beagles together,
which we did.

Speaker 2 (30:09):
Did the beagles get on? They did? Tommy and Bubba
had great life together. Big sniffers beagles, and.

Speaker 1 (30:17):
David's bagel was very naughty and mine was very well behaved,
so a metaphor.

Speaker 2 (30:24):
Perhaps.

Speaker 1 (30:25):
And the other thing was Dave was a you know,
he didn't have children, so and I don't know that
it ever really like he wasn't one of those people
dying for children, and so that was that was an
added element which I actually again turned out to be
really wonderful because Abby has a very Abby is a
raving extrovert and just loves everybody. That's her personality style,

(30:50):
and so she just adored him. Made it easy, so easy,
and I mean it was impossible not to love Abby
and to get caught up in everything that she was
up to. And so yeah, we yeah, it was. It's
lovely finding David and he of course I haven't you know,
I found him and I've.

Speaker 2 (31:09):
Kept but you haven't. You're not married, No, we're not married.
It's very modern.

Speaker 1 (31:14):
Yeah, I think there's sort of a I noticed a
lot of my niece, my niece and her generation are
all getting married again.

Speaker 2 (31:24):
Yes, it's like come full. I feel like my.

Speaker 1 (31:27):
Generation it was part of our kind of feminism and
not being owned and not having those traditional structures around
our relationships or not feeling the need to. You know,
I've never felt the need to be married, and so
we just never have.

Speaker 2 (31:43):
We bought a house together. I thought that was more
do you feel the need because no, I think men
are often a little bit more traditional in that sense
than this generation of women.

Speaker 1 (31:54):
Anyway, No, I think he was completely fine with that.
And for he and I when we bought a house together,
I really felt that was our married paper.

Speaker 2 (32:04):
That's the And then we've been very fortunate.

Speaker 1 (32:06):
I got two children, Charlie and Evie, right, who are
eighteen and almost twenty, So there's ten years between top
and bottom, which means I have been a parent for
my feels like my entire life.

Speaker 2 (32:22):
But I'm almost through it now. How well you we
think that, Well, I'm through that kind of real intense mothering. Yes, stage.
How was it with Dave when you had Charlie, so
first boy having had a daughter, and his first biological child,

(32:43):
though he obviously had had Abby, had decided that that
was her Abby Dave very early on. How was that?
It was lovely?

Speaker 1 (32:52):
Charlie was so Dave's the eldest in his family. So
Abby and Charlie were the first grandchildren in that in
the line that came so yeah, people, I mean Charlie's
he's just adorable. Was wonderful to have, you know, so again,
just experience all that in a much happier way. Although

(33:14):
my mother died when I was pregnant with Charlie, so
I did have a kind of another traumatic episode when
I was pregnant, but that was more like she'd been
unwell with cancer for a long time, so that was
more expected.

Speaker 2 (33:28):
But Charlie was.

Speaker 1 (33:30):
Another gift in that way to the family, another healing
part of life and happy and healthy and easy. And
Dave kind of rolled his sleeves up and had some
parental leave.

Speaker 2 (33:43):
Because what was happening with your career at this point.

Speaker 1 (33:45):
Oh it was madness. So it was like it was around.
So Charlie was born in two thousand and six. I
was Deputy Chief Minister then and we had an election.
Oh so he was born mid cycle. So that was
kind of good timing, right, thank you, thank you. Very convenient.
Eve came along. Not so convenient. She came along about
eighteen months later. But yeah, it was busy, but it

(34:09):
was containable in the sense that I don't unlike other jurisdictions.

Speaker 2 (34:14):
There's not a lot of travel in the eight Well.

Speaker 1 (34:18):
You travel from one end of the Act to another
in half an hour.

Speaker 2 (34:21):
So we just managed it.

Speaker 1 (34:23):
We're a busy family juggling lots of different things, but
we managed.

Speaker 2 (34:27):
And then when did the calling, like the federal ALP
calling come.

Speaker 1 (34:35):
So that would have been in twenty fourteen, around twenty fourteen,
and it was really the retirement of Kate Lundy, who
was the senator for the Act then, and a few
people federally sort of tapped me on the shoulder and said,
we'd like you to join our team.

Speaker 2 (34:53):
So and how is that? That was a discussion, Well,
I was more.

Speaker 1 (34:58):
I mean, I'd always said in the family, oh yeah,
in the family, yeah, I mean, I think we'd all realize,
like I'd been in Act politics for almost fourteen thirteen years.
By then, I'd been chief Minister for nearly four years,
and so I had felt I had already made up
in my mind that I wouldn't contest another election. I

(35:19):
felt like I'd done what I could and there's no
end to these jobs. So there's a natural conclusion, and
so you have to really make a decision, active decision
to leave and I hadn't made the decision to leave,
but I had made the decision not to go through
another local election and to allow others to have a go,
and so I sort of made peace with that. And

(35:41):
then this opportunity again just comes really came out of
left field because Kate had decided to retire, so there
was a vacancy. You can be appointed to that vacancy,
and in the Senate and federal Labor wanted me to
consider that. So Anthony rang me, Bill Shorten rang me,
Penny Wong rang me.

Speaker 2 (36:00):
You know.

Speaker 1 (36:00):
And when you get those people ringing you saying, please
consider coming up here, we want you to join our team,
you think about it.

Speaker 2 (36:07):
At that point, what did you want to be your
contribution to public life.

Speaker 1 (36:16):
So it was at the time also where there had
been a change of government. The Labor Party was in
all sorts of bother post the Gillard.

Speaker 2 (36:26):
Yes, yes, the tap dance, the musical chairs, and.

Speaker 1 (36:29):
So there'd been sort of there was, you know, it
was a very hurt and fractured party that Bill was
trying to rebuild. So there was that sense that you
could be part of something that was really about rebuilding
the Labor Party federally. There was also because I had
been a state leader. Tony Abbott had come in and

(36:50):
I mean, I'm trying not to be partisan, but he
was wanting to make cuts to health and education and
things like that, which I felt as a former leader
of a jurisdiction, I knew what that meant to schools
and hospitals, and so it gave me the opportunity to
bring that into the federal arena and argue against it,
which is what politics is all about, you know. It's

(37:11):
about arguing your position and trying to get enough support
to win the argument.

Speaker 2 (37:17):
And that was important to me as well, but also
interesting because obviously in politics you have your main political rival,
but also within the Labor Party, as you alluded to before,
it was so fractious and so such a house divided,

(37:39):
you must be very good at navigating a lot of
shifting tectonic plates.

Speaker 1 (37:46):
Well, I learned a lot joining the federal team in
that I feel like I'd been in this love. You
know that Act Labor, which was a very small party
in a small jurisdiction, operated very differently from Federal Labor,
which was a much bigger machine. Across the country. The
factions were very involved in decisions which hadn't been my

(38:09):
experience locally. So I had a lot to learn, and
I found that interesting as well, like you sort of
did need a guide to help you navigate with some
of that.

Speaker 2 (38:20):
Even I imagine that if you're talking to the wrong
person at the wrong time, and I mean, it's.

Speaker 1 (38:25):
So or if you don't understand long histories of yeas
and do you understand those or did you understand those?

Speaker 2 (38:33):
No?

Speaker 1 (38:34):
I didn't at the time. I understand a lot more
about it now, And I think when I joined there'd
been the reckoning had happened, and it was about how
to rebuild host the Gillard Rudd years. When Bill came
in and went to the twenty sixteen and the twenty
nineteen election, A lot of rebuilding happened during that time,

(38:55):
and a lot of people who were around during the
difficult years learned the hard way about what happens when
political parties implode like that.

Speaker 2 (39:06):
And also the people don't want it because the people
believe and looked to Bill Shorten and went no if
she maybe possibly just because he'd survived so many, so
many nights of the long knives.

Speaker 1 (39:21):
Well, I think there was a lot of things that
make people's minds up at an election. But I mean,
I think with Bill a lot of credit should be
given to the sort of structural stability he provided, because
post Tony Abbott coming into being PM in that election
twenty fourteen election, it could have got a lot worse,

(39:41):
you know, and I think Bill managed and that's part
of his Union background of being people together and all
of that. Bill managed to kind of write the ship.
And then it wasn't his time in those two elections,
and there were policy things that people didn't like, but
he kind of built the foundation that Anthony was able
to continue to develop. And so, yeah, I learned a

(40:04):
lot during that time, and I learned politics at the
federal level is a lot faster and meaner and more brutal,
and the press gallery is scare the Jesus out of
you and all that. That was very different to you know,
Katie Chief Minister puddling around the act.

Speaker 2 (40:21):
So one of the things that I'm curious about is
when you're part of a machine, by necessity a machine,
but you also have your personal integrity and your personal
beliefs when they're at odds with the party or with

(40:41):
the government, that you're a part of. How do you
reconcile that and how do you keep your sense of
integrity and navigate your way through that.

Speaker 1 (40:53):
Yeah, so it's a great It is a great question,
and it's one that a lot of us in politics
think about a lot deeply about because for the most part,
it's not a problem for you know, in your day
to day kind of operation. You know, it's like any
other workplace. But sometimes there are big things that are

(41:14):
going on where you know you would have liked a
bit more action, a bit sooner, or things to be
done a bit differently.

Speaker 2 (41:22):
And I take the view, and I have had.

Speaker 1 (41:24):
This discussion with a lot of people who criticize the
Labor Party on different positions. I've taken the view that I,
for me, it's better to be inside an organization, changing
it from within and arguing for change than it is
to be outside throwing stones at it where you have
no voice to actually influence the decisions the party takes.

(41:45):
And so there are times when you know you might
disagree around the table, but part of being part of
a collective movement is that once consensus has been reached,
or on the majority has been reached, you lock in
behind that and sometimes that means you didn't get exactly
what you want, but that doesn't mean you stop fighting
for it or arguing for it. And you know, I

(42:06):
think I can think of plenty things like marriage equality.

Speaker 2 (42:10):
You know, in the Act.

Speaker 1 (42:12):
We passed laws which got overturned unfortunately by the High Court,
but we led on that. I went to in the
Federal Parliament, in the Federal Labor Team. It took a
lot longer to get Federal Labor to a position that
I believed in, but I was part of working to
affect that change, just like Penny Wong was who for

(42:33):
years had stuck with the position even though she disagreed
with it while she worked for change and good change happens.
So that's part of being a member of a collective
movement that has discipline around it, because if you don't
have that discipline, we'd all just be out every day
saying whatever we wanted and not being able to land anything.

Speaker 2 (42:53):
Well. I think during the last election it became really
apparent that there was discipline in the ALP. I think
more than a lot of the population we're expecting to see.
Actually it yields results.

Speaker 1 (43:11):
Yeah, I think a mix of remembering what happened in
the last time we were in government and the you know,
all of the division and where that where that landed us.
But also I think Anthony's got a lot to take
credit for there because of his style of leadership. Where
again he's someone that likes, I think, governing with consensus.

(43:35):
He doesn't like pitting people against each other. He wants
to deliver change from the center, and certainly our cabinet,
our caucus, even all the new members. Everybody understands that
and it's not a hardship. People realize that when you
work like this, you can be a part of some
amazing things. After this shortbreak, Katie and I turned the

(44:05):
pressing issues facing women in Australia and the actctions that
cannot wait.

Speaker 2 (44:13):
Well as Minister for Women. Now, when you get a
portfolio like that, is that a good portfolio to get
and is that a portfolio that you'd want? I loved it.
I loved getting it because I know there is some
that are a bit of a shit sand with people
like I'm very honored to take the portfolio, but I'd

(44:34):
rather not.

Speaker 1 (44:35):
How great to be Minister for women though in it,
like for the whole country it traditionally has been a
job that's maybe been tacked on or a junior port
or done by men. They were those heady days, yes,
So the great thing about it was the combination of

(44:58):
portfolios of finance and women together. So what Anthony the
Prime Minister did with that appointment was he lifted women
into the center of government decision making. So nothing gets
past the Minister for Finance, like it's you know, every
decision really through government comes through finance someway or another,

(45:18):
because it's you know, might cost money, might impact the budget,
might you know, there's pretty much nothing that happens without
coming through that center department, which I'm responsible for. And
it lifted women into that space and it put an
economic focus on gender equality for the first time. So
with the Treasurer, who he's amazing on all stuff relating

(45:40):
to gender equality, and myself as the economic team, like
women and driving gender equality became an economic focus. It
wasn't a social focus. It wasn't about giving us, you know,
extra support. It was about, right, how do we drive
equality through work, through childcare, through health, through.

Speaker 2 (46:02):
Paid parentals exactly, through all of that. So and there
have been profound changes for women under your watch, and
as you said before, things that they take a long
time sometimes to get the wheel moving. But the biggest
I think issue for a lot of women in Australia

(46:26):
that's not directly necessarily pertaining to them, but one that
consumes us is domestic violence. Totally yeah, I agree. And
the rates of the murders of women by intimate partners,
it is terrible, It is terrible, terrific.

Speaker 1 (46:48):
Yeah, on any level when you look at the individual
cases and you get to, you know, see what happens
to women and children affected by violence. But when you
look at the numbers, the statistics, even if you have
a sort of de identified look.

Speaker 2 (47:04):
At it and the thing. So I totally agree.

Speaker 1 (47:08):
And I'm always asked if there's one thing you could
change for women, what is it? And that is always
I said, if there, if I had a magic one
and I could remove violence from women's lives, women and
children's lives, that is.

Speaker 2 (47:20):
What I would do.

Speaker 1 (47:20):
That would because I think that single thing would then
have benefits across the board education, skills, jobs, health, you know, savings, assets,
everything you look at that affects women negatively from violence
is right across the economy and every aspect of social life,

(47:42):
and of course permeates into the next generation with the
children who are affected and witnesses to that.

Speaker 2 (47:48):
Yes, and safety for women is the shadow that always
is around us anywactly. And if you are fortunate enough
to be in a home situation where you feel safe,
your outcomes in life at every level are very different
than if you aren't afforded that.

Speaker 1 (48:09):
Yeah, and again you look at it, you look at
you know when people talk about the fastest growing group
in homelessness older women, And why is that so when
you look down, Well, it's because usually if it hasn't
been a violent you know, violence ending the relationship, it
might be divorce. And it's the fact that women don't

(48:29):
have super they get done over on the assets they
have saving to children, they haven't earned as much exactly,
they don't have as much savings.

Speaker 2 (48:39):
And so all of I mean, part of what we're
trying to do.

Speaker 1 (48:43):
We've got obviously a specific focus on ending violence against
women and children in a generation, and we've put.

Speaker 2 (48:49):
Four billion dollars into that.

Speaker 1 (48:52):
We four billion dollars into legal services so that they
can provide support through community legal services, a packageing health.
Driving the gender pay gap down like everywhere, making childcare
work better, for women, paying super on parental leave. All
of these are really about making sure that we are

(49:13):
giving you know, women are earning more and they're having
the opportunity to have more savings in the bank, that
they're not penalized for being a mother, Trying to drive
more men to take the load of children when they're
young through shared arrangements for care. All of that is
about trying ultimately to get women in a better position

(49:34):
so that violence for those that are affected by violence
might have a bit more of a lect to stand on,
you know, for themselves as they're going through that, because
violence affects everything, of course, but everything is interrelated, yes
it is.

Speaker 2 (49:50):
And in some I heard you say in an interview
it's not just up to the government, which I agree
is the case. It's a societal problem. But you're the
Minister for Women and you're operating under this promise that

(50:11):
was publicly made that we will end.

Speaker 1 (50:14):
Yeah, it's end violence against women and children in a generation,
and it was agreement by stakeholders, so the women's sector
and governments and state and territory governments have all signed
up to that, and that's it's hard to explain, but
that was the agreed terms because we couldn't agree on
a time. But you can't say I want it to

(50:35):
end in five years knowing that that's unlikely.

Speaker 2 (50:39):
The other thing that I think is that though you
are the Minister for Women, that women cannot achieve what
we need to achieve in the freedom that we should
have here in Australia without men and without without encouraging
our men to be and a young men to become

(51:02):
the sort of older mean that we need them to be. Yeah,
and then I think there's pornography and which plays soch
a massive part. I know, where do we.

Speaker 3 (51:11):
Begin, Katie Galla, I'm just I'm just telling you stuff. No,
and it's all It's all things I think about and
my colleagues think about as well. And because you know,
and it is I know about kind of using government
language and what appropriate terms and things like that, it

(51:33):
sometimes does make it hard. But when you do talk
about gender equality, that is about not cutting men out
of the picture, not demonizing men, not talking to men
in a way that enrages them. And I have this
conversation with my partner Dave all the time because he
it insenses him when he feels like he's been you know,
all all men are violent or all men are aggressive,

(51:57):
and it gets him going to And so I've been
And I've got a son too that I like to
kind of test things on and and talk to about
what makes sense to him. And increasingly how I think
there is an understanding that in order to deal with
that kind of attitudinal stuff that exists across governments aren't

(52:18):
very good at dealing with that is we need men
at the table, you know, to lean in on it,
but also to provide to be the leaders of the
men that we want.

Speaker 2 (52:29):
And there are so many, so many good men.

Speaker 1 (52:32):
I just don't know that we've always been thoughtful about
how to involve them.

Speaker 2 (52:37):
And I don't necessarily see like I know obviously here
at Mamma Mia and the mission here at Mauma Mia
is to make the world a better place for women
and girls. I believe that's also your mission. But there
doesn't seem to be the same momentum from men. There
doesn't seem to be the same I don't know. Maybe

(53:00):
it's because they feel helpless, or maybe it's because of feminism,
or I don't know what it is, but there seems
to be a silence that's not helpful. Yeah, I think
there is something in that.

Speaker 1 (53:14):
And so how we involve men in discussions about you know,
building the world that we want and building the society
we want, and you know, even in terms of probably
gender equality, because that actually means that men and women
are treated equally, girls and boys are treated equally. It's
not about women getting something better, not the same, but

(53:36):
equally equally and have equal opportunities, so that a girl
leaving primary school tomorrow thinks all those jobs are available
to her, not just some of the jobs, and the
same for the for the young boy or the young man.
And we have to make sure that we are bringing
that thinking along with us as we you know, we
have a minis for women. We're driving a lot of

(53:56):
improvements for women that we are at the same time
conscious that this isn't about being better or getting more
for women. It's about trying to make sure the balance
is right. And like my colleague Dan Rapercoli, who he's
the Special Envoy for Men's Health, so he's been given
that job by the PM to sort of start moving

(54:19):
into I think some of that silence, like men's health
is an obvious area.

Speaker 3 (54:24):
Women.

Speaker 1 (54:24):
We're very good at talking about our health. The health
system needs to We're very good at talking. We are
good at We're great at talking. And so I think
more and more you'll see, Yeah, you'll see changes like
that which try to bring men to the table in
a lot more of these discussions, because you're right, we
can't do it on our own. We shouldn't do it
on our own. That's not the world we want to create.

Speaker 2 (54:47):
You know that in the context of bringing men into
our world, there does seem to be kind of a
divide between stuff that's labeled as women's business by men.
No more clearly, I think, is there an example of
that than on, for instance, International Women's Day, when there
are breakfasts and functions and there amazing and they're uplifting,

(55:12):
but they're all tables of teen of women and the
men are absent from those, Or literature that's seemed to
be women's literature, or TV shows or you know, how
do we bring men in to our world?

Speaker 1 (55:31):
I'm not sure I have the perfect answer for that,
or a good answer. I think this is an area
where there's more work to do, you know, and I
am a big believer in not making the equality discussion
a woman's issue or a women's issue that women have
to solve.

Speaker 2 (55:50):
Not only are we.

Speaker 1 (55:51):
Often the victims of the or not victims, or that
we suffer from the inequality, or we experience the inequality.
It's then up to us to work out how to
solve it.

Speaker 2 (56:00):
And even this conversation will enrage some women because I
know they're like, but we shouldn't have to do it. Yeah,
but at some point, you either want what you want
or you want to be right. I think so. I
think so. But with men, I think we have to work.

Speaker 1 (56:16):
Out a better way of involving them in all of
the discussions about the world that we want to build,
not not on a women versus men spectrum. It doesn't
have to be women gain at the expense of men.
This is all about getting a fair treatment for everybody
and creating a community in a society where that is

(56:38):
a realistic possibility. And at the moment, on any of
those measures we've talked about, that's not the case. And
I think part of our job, maybe it's not the
women's job, but we have to work out ways that
men don't feel threatened to be a part of that discussion, and.

Speaker 2 (56:54):
I think at the moment we haven't quite got that
now to be And as we know, men are great
at solutions.

Speaker 1 (57:02):
So maybe it's up to us to work out how
to get them involved.

Speaker 2 (57:04):
Maybe we need a Minister for men.

Speaker 1 (57:06):
Well, like I said, where the Minister for Men or
the Special Envoy for Men's Health is the first kind
of foray into that and structurally.

Speaker 2 (57:14):
You guys get it together in a in a policy. Yes, absolutely, yeah.

Speaker 1 (57:21):
Well and again you know, if if Dan can deal
with some of the issues about around men's health, that
that would make a big improvement in men's lives. Also
would have flow on effects for women who are you know,
their wives and their mums and they're all the rest
of it. I mean, it's it's it's important that we
have a whole of community focus on equality and that

(57:43):
involves men being part of that discussion.

Speaker 2 (57:46):
Absolutely. What do you want to have happened at the
end of this political term?

Speaker 1 (57:55):
God, so many things, so many in the women's portfolio.

Speaker 2 (58:00):
Do you think for you? Well, like, what's a what's
a measure success for you? Yes? What is yours? I
think it would happen in mind? This will haunt you? Yeah,
I know it will. I can see your cogs.

Speaker 1 (58:15):
I'm trying well because I think about this a lot,
and partly it's hard to measure, like I would like
to see a big change in domestic and family violence,
like a reduction in it, because I think that would
make all these other areas where women are behind a
lot easier to solve if we didn't, if we weren't

(58:37):
constantly pouring money an effort into trying to deal with
the crisis and of domestic and family.

Speaker 2 (58:43):
To rebuild, and it's been shattered.

Speaker 1 (58:47):
And through the hospitals, through the courts, through the schools,
through counseling, through services, through everything where so much money
is poured into dealing with the crisis of this. But
having said that, saying I'd like to see a reduction,
I know that part of what we're going through at
the moment is that we're seeing those numbers look worse

(59:07):
or in some indicators, materially worse. And part of that
is people reporting more and pursuing more through the courts,
and that that is good. So it's not what I'm
saying to is I'd like to see that change. But
I'm also been around long enough to know that in
the short term, affecting that change means some of those

(59:27):
numbers might look worse.

Speaker 2 (59:29):
Your daughter EV is neurodivergent. She certainly in a number
of diagnoses.

Speaker 1 (59:38):
Yes, she's a lot. EV love, I love that kid,
But she's a lot.

Speaker 2 (59:44):
How do you have a kid who's a lot when
you have a lot on your plate?

Speaker 3 (59:49):
Ah?

Speaker 1 (59:50):
Well, I imagine you've got When you said you have
four children, I kind of took a sharp intake of
breath because I said, oh my god, how could I like,
I've got three? Four sounds terrifying. You Just deal with it,
you know, it is she's I mean, labels help explain EV.

Speaker 2 (01:00:07):
But EV is just my daughter.

Speaker 1 (01:00:09):
And so the family absorbs and you know, copes with
all the different personalities in it. EV's required a bit
more hands on and kind of contact than the other two.
But she's been a wonderful you know, her autism, her ADHD, dyslexia,

(01:00:31):
all the other things that are going on have also
enriched our family a lot. And you know, I feel
very fortunate for having a kid like EV who's exposed
me to that and made me parent different and think
differently and be at times more accommodating she's driven me mad.
I mean, gosh yeah, pull my hair out, all that

(01:00:54):
sort of stuff, but just hugely again, just taught me
to be a lot more empathetic and understanding and about people.
You learn a lot about people in my job, and
Evi's taught me a lot about autism and how brains
work differently.

Speaker 2 (01:01:12):
What do you love about Australia?

Speaker 1 (01:01:17):
I love I was thinking about this the other day
because I was cleaning the tomb of the Unnamed Soldier
in the War Memorial and before it opens, MPs and
senators can go and clean it and just spend some time.
And I was thinking things like a ceremonial, no, just
on your own, you're just in the oh yeah, in

(01:01:39):
that part of the War Memorial. And do you know,
I was thinking, in any other country, you'd probably have
some pomp and ceremony about around this, like there'd be
you know, military standing.

Speaker 2 (01:01:50):
On guard and bugles and things.

Speaker 1 (01:01:53):
I love the fact that we're all we come from
a very egalitarian you know, no fast, no friels, kind
of care for each other, look after each other. And
I think we saw that a bit in the election campaign,
which really validated I know, the Australian spirit to me,
which was, we don't really want to be divided and angry.

(01:02:16):
We wanted we want to work on a society that's
about bringing people together and being optimistic. Which is why
I think I'm such a you know, Oh, I think
civics and citizenship and understanding politics and democracy is so
important because we are very lucky here. We have peaceful

(01:02:36):
transfer or power. We have peaceful elections. You can't imagine
a world where you have to walk past guns to
go and and you know, have a vote, or that
you're killed.

Speaker 2 (01:02:47):
And are you coming in today?

Speaker 1 (01:02:49):
Yeah, just being able to come in exactly. We've got
such freedom around it. But it's not something we should
take for granted because it can be taken away, and
it can be taken it's fragile. Democracy is fragile, and
you know, so we should be protective of it because
ultimately the best thing about democracy is that people make

(01:03:11):
the rules and make the decisions for the people. And
if the people don't like you, they beat you out
and they bring in someone they do like, and again
people might get annoyed. I've got to go down and vote.
I do my fair share of handing out on the
polling stations and everyone's like, oh god, I had to
come down and vote today. But honestly, I think it's

(01:03:31):
a very it's a system we should protect and invest in.

Speaker 2 (01:03:35):
Your I guess groundedness or your every womanness resonates with people.
But some people also say I mean, I think we
always want people to be better than us and more
elusive if we want to put them on a Peter stall.
Do you think that politics might work better for people

(01:03:59):
like yourself who were not led to it because of
a desire for power or some kind of you know,
modern I don't, literally.

Speaker 1 (01:04:11):
I think politics needs a lot of different things, Like
you need a lot of different people in politics to
make it work. And some of it is some of
that is my style of politics, which is, you know,
you know, I hope to be like very accessible, very
down to earth, you know, you see, what you see
is what you get. I'll be pretty direct with people.

(01:04:33):
But I also am pretty connected. I've got a background
in community work, so I think I think there's definitely
a role for me that type of person.

Speaker 2 (01:04:43):
I would say that.

Speaker 1 (01:04:44):
Because I'm in there better, But I do think there's
definitely a role. But I think politics works best where
there's a whole melting pot in a sense of different
personality types and different backgrounds and different cultural backgrounds, different
geographic backgrounds, all of that. When you get that right,

(01:05:05):
then you truly represent Australia. And I think at the
heart of political system, that's what it's about. So it's
not about what it used to be, which was older
men at the towards the end of their careers. You
look at the Parliament now, it's very different to that.
It's gender balanced for the first time and a lot
of different cultural people with different cultural backgrounds are represented.

Speaker 2 (01:05:29):
How do you handle it because a lot of it
is it is a power play, and politics itself is
about who's in power and who isn't. When you're challenged
on something, at what point do you go, this is
my ego reacting rather than this is actually what maybe

(01:05:53):
I need to hear.

Speaker 1 (01:05:55):
Yes, So I think that's a great question which I've
kind of been thinking. I have been thinking about because
someone asked me about it. How do you wield influence
and how do you wield power?

Speaker 2 (01:06:07):
And is that important in politics?

Speaker 1 (01:06:09):
And I think where I've got to is in the
position that I'm in, it is important to have a
number of things. One is to wield influence is important.
To have respect of your colleagues is important, and to
use the power you have carefully and wisely, knowing that

(01:06:31):
you know, like you say, to sort of take a
step back, not let your ego run things like there
are times any in any workplace when you kind of
I think you have to stop and check and think
about things the way I yeah, I'm an I'm I
will be confrontational if I need to be, but I

(01:06:51):
prefer not to be. I prefer to think about how
I land decisions or get what I want in a
careful way and similar smart way.

Speaker 2 (01:07:00):
If you're engaging with colleagues or political opponents that are
very combative, how do you respond to that pretty calmly?

Speaker 1 (01:07:10):
I think it takes a lot to get me to
elevate my heart rate to you know, and I think
maybe I've lent that over time, and it's a bit
symbolic more characteristic of who I am, I think, which
is when things get difficult and hard, I do go
into myself and it's like a coping mechanism, I think.
So it takes a lot to get me to lose

(01:07:32):
it or respond in a similar way. And in a
sense it's pretty effective because if someone's having a crack
at you and you're remaining calm, that often infuriates them.

Speaker 2 (01:07:44):
I think that's called passive aggressive. Well, Katie Gallaher, thank you,
thank you for your service. Oh, thank you, thanks for
having me on. So normally I'd rather be shot out
of a cannon than talk to a politician, but Kati

(01:08:05):
Galaher is slightly unusual. She's the woman who's not only
front and center in some of the toughest jobs in government,
but also a woman who's lived a life full of challenge, loss,
and resilience. It's very rare that politicians allow you to
glimpse the person behind the office, the human being who's

(01:08:26):
navigating grief, parenthood, and leadership all at once. Katie reminds
us that there's always more to a person than the headlines,
and that strength often comes quietly from choices made in
everyday moments. Thank you so much for joining us on
No Filter. If you love this conversation, make sure to

(01:08:47):
subscribe so you don't miss the next one. The executive
producer of No Filter is Naima Brown. The senior producer
is bre Player. Audio production is by Jacob Brown, video
editing is by Josh Green And I'm your host, Kate
lane Brook. Thank you for listening.