July 27, 2025 • 51 mins
Osher Günsberg has been one of the most recognisable people on Australian television. The face of The Bachelor, The Bachelorette, The Masked Singer, and Australian Idol, he’s been in our living rooms for over two decades.
But TV has changed. The work slowed. And suddenly, one of the most familiar faces in the country found himself scrambling to pay the mortgage.
In this episode of No Filter, Osher sits down with Kate Langbroek for a raw and revealing conversation about what happens when the cameras stop rolling. He opens up about the financial strain of losing multiple prime-time jobs, the reality of hustling for gigs to make ends meet, and the ego hit that comes with watching an industry move on without you.
Osher also speaks openly about his ongoing mental health journey and the therapy that’s helped him survive some of his darkest moments.
You can follow Osher and find his book, So What? Now What? here.
If this conversation brought up any hard feelings for you - please seek help. You can reach Lifeline on 13 11 14
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CREDITS:
Guest: Osher Günsberg
Host: Kate Langbroek
Executive Producer: Naima Brown
Senior Producer: Bree Player
Audio Producer: Jacob Round
Mamamia acknowledges the Traditional Owners of the Land we have recorded this podcast on, the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation. We pay our respects to their Elders past and present, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander cultures.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. Mama Mea acknowledges
the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast
is recorded on.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Oh I'll be dead, There's no question. There's no question.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
Yeah, I wouldn't be alive. There's absolutely no question, no
question at all. The horror that I was lining with.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Forget about it, absolutely forget about it.
Speaker 4 (00:36):
Welcome to No Filter. I'm Kate lane Brook. You know
Osher Gunsberg. He's the face of The Bachelor, The Bachelorette,
the Masks, singer and of course Australian Idol. He's the
voice of bond I Rescue and he's been so familiar
to us on our screens for more than two decades.
(00:58):
But what happens when the cameras stop rolling. In this conversation,
Osher talks about what it's been like to find his
footing in a changing industry and what it really feels
like to be in your fifties with years of experience
and struggling to find work. He opens up about the
financial pressure that comes with that and how he's learning
(01:20):
to redefine what success actually looks like. We also talk
about his ongoing mental health journey. There's no conversation with
Osher without addressing that, and what makes his marriage work
during tough times, why step fatherhood has been the most
(01:41):
rewarding and hardest role of his life. This is a
conversation about identity, resilience, and figuring out who you are
when everything around you starts to shift. He's a guy
who goes deep, and so do we. Oshagunsburg, Welcome to
(02:04):
No Filter.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
I'm thrilled to be here.
Speaker 4 (02:07):
Okay, So when I was doing my deep dive on you,
which I already was quite in deep with you actually
just through having been alive in this country, nobody can
interview you without referring to your haircuts or your name changes.
Speaker 3 (02:24):
Okay, if that's what they want, what I wink that
the content of what they bring to a production has
more to do.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
But no, But here's the thing.
Speaker 4 (02:35):
I actually think that they're markers of certain periods in
your life.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Of course, as is the therapy.
Speaker 4 (02:45):
That you have embarked upon that goes with each of those,
and the self work that you have done.
Speaker 3 (02:52):
Oh yeah, and maybe I've been a bit more visual
or visible about that than others, because you can't be
what you can't see. And I felt it was important
to start talking about the kind of things that I
needed to hear when I wasn't doing very well. And
I think it's important to normalize this stuff. You're nice
stranger to normalizing difficult conversations, and I think it's important
(03:15):
that if you just start speaking in a way. Look,
I'm a human like anybody, and I do life that
might be a little more visible than others, but you know,
I'm a human being and I do human stuff, and
it's human to feel these things. And if you're feeling
some of them, they can end in this way, but
if you do something about it, it can end up better.
Speaker 4 (03:34):
I'm curious about the point at which because your evolution
has been remarkable, and as you said, a lot of
it conducted under the like often obsessive and cruel scrutiny
of the public eye, right, and you have a remarkable
(03:54):
capacity to bring yourself to things.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
Well, I chose this job, all right.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
There's a moment in Godfather Part two where Michael Corleoni
is talking a hymen Roth.
Speaker 4 (04:05):
Please do the accent, Please do the accent, Please do
the accent, Please do the accent.
Speaker 3 (04:10):
You know he's talking to hyd Roth, who is actually
his acting coach and one of the great acting coaches
of the world. He's upset at Michael Coleoni for whacking
one of his friends, and he says, but I never
complained because it was business, and this is the business
we have chosen, And this is the job I chose.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
I chose a public facing job.
Speaker 3 (04:29):
And there's parts of the public facing job that I
have dealt with in lately far better ways.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
Than I used to, But there's this is the job
I chose.
Speaker 3 (04:40):
I chose a job where I am putting myself out
to the opinions of the public. And part of the
work that I get to do is I get to
have a long, hard look at myself in the magical
maas and mirrors and really get to choose what those
opinions of the public mean to me. And in the
past I have sometimes made the mean all kinds of
(05:01):
things and it has derailed me in parts, and lately,
in the last fifteen years or so, it's been a
lot easier. So yeah, I mean, it's important. It's important
to be able to have this kind of conversation publicly,
and that's why I started the podcast in twenty thirteen.
Bookcase I wasn't hearing the kind of things that I
was needing to hear when I.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
Wasn't doing very well. I wasn't doing well when I
started that show. And similarly, that's why I wrote this book.
Speaker 3 (05:24):
In what was I wrote this book because I read
this book because I wish this is the book that
I wish I had when I wasn't doing very well.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
This is the book you're talking about, So what now?
Speaker 3 (05:33):
What?
Speaker 1 (05:35):
And when I was reading it, which was it's very accessible.
Speaker 4 (05:40):
It's a graphic novel, and I think when I first
got it this might be a metaphor for you. I
underestimated what it would contain within do you know what
I mean?
Speaker 1 (05:51):
Because of the presentation of it seems.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
So I'm all about the trojan horse, all about it.
You know.
Speaker 3 (05:58):
It's if I can, if I can sneak into the
machine and disrupt from the inside, then I've done my job.
And if I can present a set of tools that
for me were life saving in a way that doesn't
feel like I'm trying to tell you something, doesn't see
it feel like I know better than you, or it
doesn't feel like you're broken, and it's just look, here's
(06:21):
some stuff. Take it or leave it, it's up to you,
and then I've done my job right and I worked
really really hard to hopefully thread that needle.
Speaker 4 (06:29):
What was it If we go back to twenty thirteen
when you started your podcast and you said you wanted
somewhere basically to find some tools that would help you
where you were at that time. Where were you at
that time that needed that.
Speaker 3 (06:45):
Twenty thirteen, I've been sober for about three years.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
I just got divorced.
Speaker 3 (06:53):
I was out in Los Angeles, paying rent out of
my savings and kind of starting to maybe get whiffs
that there might be I was creating TV formats and
I'm pitching them down in Australia and I was in
pre production for a TV show when it was a
dating show, and I was in pre production for this
(07:14):
dating show, and then the network said, hey, I know
you're here doing pre production on this dating show, but
we just put another dating show.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
It's called Bachelor. Would you want to host that? Yes?
I would.
Speaker 3 (07:25):
So I was out here by myself back in Australia,
kind of single and sober for the first time, trying
to figure it out, dealing with degrading like sometimes better
mental health than I had in a long time, but
in many ways worse mental health than I had a
long time, and I wasn't hearing the kind of conversations
(07:46):
I needed to hear, which was that other people also
had similar struggles and other people found ways to overcome
them and just to normalize stuff like not necessarily I
need to find the answer in this next three minutes
of audio.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
Just oh yeah, I know that.
Speaker 3 (08:01):
And I do a lot of jobs to keep my
mortgage paid these days, Kate, it used to be just
one or two is about thirteen. But there's a through
line to all of them. And I think the one
job that I think I do better, that's than everything.
The one job I do is to I try to
make people feel less alone. That's my job, okay, And
(08:22):
that be through a book or a podcast, or whether
I'm doing a keynote or hosting a TV show.
Speaker 1 (08:27):
Giving a girl a rose, I am.
Speaker 3 (08:30):
I am a one man example of the Mandela effect
because I've never given anyway. I never a rose once, never,
not one time, but I ever give a rose.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
But everyone asked me, did you ever give a rose?
Speaker 3 (08:42):
Like?
Speaker 1 (08:42):
No, that is Mandela effect.
Speaker 4 (08:45):
I get to be a I think I always thought
watching that show well, I wondered how much input you.
Speaker 1 (08:52):
Had to it.
Speaker 3 (08:53):
Thankfully, in later seasons an amount which was more than
other people would expect from the host of a show.
They were the production company was very very open to input,
and we were all creating it together, which I'm very
very great for.
Speaker 4 (09:09):
You know, you're not the one who drove it off
the tracks though with the multiple bachelors, because that was
a shark jumping moment.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
I couldn't keep art.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (09:21):
You've been involved in you've been involved in in very
very highly successful shows, and you've been involved in shows that,
even though they've been highly successful and you're trying new things,
sometimes those things don't work and you're doing everything you can,
and you know, sometimes things change around you. You're doing
all the stuff you're doing right and it might it
might not hit, but you've got to take a risk.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (09:44):
I think there's a lot of factors that went into
how there's there's always a lot of factors that go
into how a TV format grows and changes over time.
Some of those things make that TV format keep going
and sometimes they don't. But sometimes those things are completely
iudio control. You know, it could be the license fee
that they signed with the format owner that makes it
no longer affordable to make. It's got nothing to do
(10:06):
with with you. It's show business, not your friends. And
there may be a business case that doesn't equal the
production budget and then the show stops going and that's.
Speaker 4 (10:14):
Fine, okay, So on that note, this is an unusual time.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
But in show.
Speaker 4 (10:20):
Bees, which is my bees and your bees, these are
weird times. And we know that the weird times have
come and knocking for other people already. Do you know
what I mean? Like in automation of production or someone
who was a journalist would know this, But now it's
knocking on our door.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
How does that feel?
Speaker 4 (10:41):
Because you have been such a big part of Australian television,
You've been one of the most widely seen hosts across
a variety of formats, and because you are prone to introspection,
how do you process that?
Speaker 2 (10:59):
So what you're talking about is that? And I asked
this this morning.
Speaker 3 (11:03):
We're recording this a day after I was voted off
the Island of Dancing with the Stuff, and I asked
the publicist johnno this morning, I said, what were the
numbers last night? And you know, he said, some numbers whatever,
they were nine hundred something. I was like, oh, so
nine is a new one and ones a new two.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
Pretty much. There was a time when you would get
two million and not even you know, you.
Speaker 3 (11:25):
Get one point five, not even blinked, right, you get
one point five now like you're taking the.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
Board to lunch.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
Or they're taking you to lunch.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
Yeah, my part.
Speaker 3 (11:37):
I can only control my part in this, Kate, and
that would be that I was so busy trying to
be the healthiest. I could be the best husband, I
could be the best dad stepdad, that I could be
the best person who does my job.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
That I could be, and trying to be that.
Speaker 3 (11:55):
Not succeeding, but you know, to the level I would
like to in many of those ways, but doing my
very best. I was too busy doing that to look
up and notice things like share prices and ratings and
viewership across the board and market ad spend and business
stuff that I have never really needed to pay attention
(12:15):
to earlier in my career, but lately understood that, oh crikey,
if the ad revenue is not coming in, then the
production budget's not justified, and it's got nothing to do
with the kind of job that I do. I could
do the best job ever. Both the show's too expensive
to make, they can't make it, and so that was
my part. I was too busy making this stuff. And
then I kind of looked up and realized I was
(12:36):
the last one left. Other people had seen this coming,
but I didn't, And that's my responsibility to own. We're
in a very very interesting time, Don't get me wrong.
There's more people looking at screens than they've ever looked
at screens before. Yes, there's more advertising money and visual
media than there has been in a really, really, really
long time. It's just not in the business models that
(12:59):
existed that I came up.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
It's not on the big screen in the living room.
Speaker 3 (13:04):
Well it is, it is, it's just not through the
previously it inherent owned channels that existed. It's an arm
wrestle over HDMI one for everyone's living room, okay, and
most of the time that HDMI one is going to
be at Apple Box or might be just a smart TV, right,
(13:25):
and the first button's going to be Netflix, the second
button's going to be YouTube, or maybe the other way around.
And way down the end somewhere is Australian freedoware it apps,
And that's really really difficult for many, many reasons.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
And it's not just from an industry reason.
Speaker 3 (13:42):
When you know, whenever I run into somebody that I've
worked with, I'm like, oh my god, you're working Stoke
for you. Okay, it's not just for those reasons. I
feel that as a country we need to really take
a long, hard look at ourselves about how much we
value our culture and what value it is to us
as a nation to have a cohesive cultural narrative.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
We still have it through sport, which we're lucky.
Speaker 4 (14:08):
Sort of, even though that it's a divide. That's a
divide as well.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, we do still like supports so much.
Speaker 3 (14:15):
But it is really really important that A great example
would be the Coldplay meme. Yeah, okay, that moment where
everyone knows the thing you're talking about. Yes, that hasn't
happened in three fucking years, okay, but it used to
happen every day. Every single day. You would go to
(14:36):
work and say did you see that? I saw that?
And everyone knew what you want.
Speaker 4 (14:41):
By the way, in case there's two people that don't know,
it was the CEO with his head of HR at
the Cold Blake concert. Who got caught on the jumbo
tron kissing It was sprang apart so guiltily it was.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
It was okay.
Speaker 3 (15:01):
Chris Martin shitting ingrin really sold it though, it was
like and even he knew.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
You really needed that on the scene. But this is
this is the thing.
Speaker 3 (15:09):
We we had this cultural moment that complete strangers were
able to relate to the same thing and go, yes,
we both saw this thing, and we both relate to
this thing, and this gives us a little way point
for which to navigate the rest of our lives around
because right now, there used to be four versions of
the news every night, and that was what the news.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
Was all right.
Speaker 3 (15:27):
Now there's any version of the news that you want,
and none of it will make you uncomfortable. If you choose,
you can watch all your news through a lens that
gives you just what you want to hear about it,
and not what you don't that makes you feel funny
in the tummy. It's really important that we see ourselves
and our stories on screen, and whether it be through
an unscripted format like a singing show or a cooking
(15:49):
show or Great Australian Bake Off, which I love, even
though I can't eat any of it because I'm vegan
and Celiac, but it's somethink.
Speaker 2 (15:55):
It's a really wholesome show and I really love it.
Speaker 3 (15:57):
Or you know, any kind of nonscripted reality show or drama.
It's really really important that we see our culture reflected.
Otherwise we're just going to end up like a weird
echo of America and the right and because the Australian
cultural value needs it's the third actor in any scene
(16:17):
that you ever watch, right, the way that Australians look
at something. If you look at any American cop show
or any American show, there's always the idea that someone
might have a gun and they're not afraid to use it.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
Well, that doesn't happen. So how do we get out
of a sticky situation here? All Right?
Speaker 3 (16:33):
It's really really important that we value our culture, and
we value our storytellers, and that we value the people
that make those stories. We wouldn't let gastroentrologists go out of
work if we suddenly killed Celiac disease, but we would
keep them around in case we needed them. But we're
about to have this gigantic loss of knowledge in our
storytelling industries, radio, television, film that we're not going to
(16:55):
get back.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
And that's a really weird place for us to be.
Speaker 4 (16:58):
And I don't think anybody would argue that it's not important.
And when I say anybody, I mean people. People know
that's important. People know what they value.
Speaker 3 (17:10):
There was a thing that used to happen where we
had local content rules. Having worked in radio, you would
understand why you would have Australian artist on radio because
there was a mandate if you had a broadcast license
you needed to play a certain percentage of Australian music.
Right that also exists with free toware broadcasters. You have
to have a certain percentage of Australian content that does
not exist for the streamers. Okay, And we talk a
(17:33):
lot about tariffs or subsidies and such like this. We'll
subsidize fossil fuel in our country up the freakin' wa Zoo.
We will give overseas companies billions of dollars of our
sovereign wealth for no tax whatsoever. We're not protecting our
culture and protecting the stories that make us Australian. By
protecting our storytelling industries, we don't will high vis so
(17:54):
we don't matter and that sucks. But when it's gone,
we're not going to be able to get it back.
And then we become this, like I said, we've become
this weird rhyming slang of you know, either an American
or a British view on things, and it's really weird.
Speaker 4 (18:07):
So Ashualy, you know, you referred to having several jobs
now to pay your mortgage thirteen and I think you
said now whereas once it only took one or two.
Not literal, but your point is a valid one you
must encounter all the time, the assumption that because you
work in such a public facing role that you are
(18:34):
cashed up to the moon and back.
Speaker 3 (18:37):
I'm the same as anybody, right, I know we're supposed
to live within our means. But like anyone, you get
the mortgage that you think, yeah, we can do that.
Speaker 2 (18:49):
I don't you want job you're in, that's what you do,
and you just back yourself. Yep, thirty years, let's go,
otherwise you'll never leave the rental.
Speaker 4 (19:00):
And by the way, everyone's mortgage in Australia now is
eye watering.
Speaker 2 (19:06):
Everybody.
Speaker 3 (19:07):
I don't care who you are, all right, you got
the mortgage that you breathed in through your teeth, and
it might.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
Be caravan parks for wild kids, and you know when.
Speaker 3 (19:15):
It comes to holidays, but you hit go and and
our situation is the same. You know, you you live,
you build a life, you know within, you build a
life that is in response to the work that you're doing.
And certainly once kids show up, you know, you get
(19:36):
into schools and you start doing all kinds of things,
and those expenses don't just go away. I had four
primetime TV shows on the mortgage form. None of those
I was going to show.
Speaker 4 (19:46):
I hope that's not the time that you actually got
your mortgage, but it is.
Speaker 3 (19:51):
It was, and none of those shows exist now. But
we're still here because I have had to be very
innovative about what you said, I'm trying to do here.
It's the same dance at anyone plays. And you know,
whether we get to stay here or not, I don't know.
But look the days of oh, you've got our job
in television, so now you are set for life that
(20:13):
have not.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
Existed since the eighties.
Speaker 3 (20:15):
Man, like pre GFC TV money, I saw the like
a glimpse of the back end of it, But that
stuff doesn't yest.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
Not in Australia, no way. Man. Nah. There's people who
don't work anywhere near broadcast.
Speaker 3 (20:30):
TV that make way more money using their freaking phone.
Speaker 1 (20:34):
This is very interesting because it's interesting kind.
Speaker 4 (20:37):
Of on a macro and a micro level, or you know,
on a more personal level.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
What does it mean for you?
Speaker 4 (20:46):
Like, how do you feel about Really, you've been on
our screens for I'm going to say twenty years longer.
Speaker 2 (20:54):
Probably started in ninety nine, Yeah, so.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
Twenty six years.
Speaker 4 (20:59):
What does it feel like for you when you realize,
like you said that this was you with a frog
in the boiling water, not really realizing what was going
on around you. But like you said, you've got a
mortgage to pay, and you've got a wife, and you've
got a kid, you've got to a step daughter, and
you've got a life to live.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
How does that feel?
Speaker 2 (21:22):
I mean, like, I mean, I'm not special.
Speaker 3 (21:26):
I'm not the only fifty something year old guy that's
found themselves at the wrong end of a you know,
a shrinkage in a market or a technological iteration. You know,
this happens in many, many, many industries. As we mentioned,
I just get to do it public a little more
publicly than others. And you know, in many ways, it's
(21:46):
what the book is about.
Speaker 2 (21:48):
It's you know, four wonderful words. So what now?
Speaker 3 (21:50):
What Am I going to be upset about it? Or
am I going to do something about it? Because I
can be upset about it, but all that's going to
happen is I'll just stay upset about it and nothing
will happen and it'll just get worse. Or I could
do something about it, and being in action will get
me as long as I'm in moving towards what I value,
which is looking after my family and try to connect
(22:11):
with people and try to make people feel less alone.
Being an action will feel better, even if it's not
bringing money in the door.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
Being an action will feel better than doing nothing.
Speaker 3 (22:21):
And it is through that action that the clues and
the spontaneity and the serendipity that bring the next opportunity.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
A right, So the so what now?
Speaker 4 (22:30):
What is based on a certain type of therapy? You
know a lot about therapy? Can you tell me what
types of therapy you know about?
Speaker 3 (22:40):
Oh? Well, look, it's different courses for different horses.
Speaker 2 (22:45):
Okay, If horse rest is your thing, it's not really mine.
Speaker 3 (22:48):
But you know, you can go to a physio for
some things, you go to a chiropractor for others. All right,
there's the same people they put their elbows in your back,
but they do different things. Similarly, there's different kinds of
therapists for different kinds of situations, and therapy is something
that you can go to for a while and then
you get us at tools and the kind of hold
(23:09):
your hand for a bit and then they kind of
patch you on the bum and send you off into
the world. And with that set of tools, you've now
been able to expand your universe and have a bit
more possibility. But then might happen is now you're in
this new world and you can do things. You might
get an new job or a new partner, or have
a kid, or change jobs or move state. And now
you've got a bit more stress in your life. Oh
now I don't have enough skills. I better go back
and grab a few more tools so I can get
(23:30):
through this next bit. And so that's basically what I've done,
because I know when I'm outgunned, and I know when
I need ideas that aren't mine to get me out
of the woods. And I think The first bunch of
therapy I learned was cognitive behavioral therapy. It's called CBT.
But don't google that because you will not find behavioral therapy.
Speaker 2 (23:50):
Oh no, no no.
Speaker 3 (23:52):
And that's a broadly kind of available It's got its
ups and downs, you know, but a broadly available, self
administered kind of thing, and it's really really powerful stuff.
Speaker 2 (24:03):
You've got to work at it, though, you've got to
use it.
Speaker 4 (24:04):
Is that a one on one thing? So you go
to the cognitive behavior therapists?
Speaker 2 (24:10):
Oh yeah, they teach you how to do it.
Speaker 3 (24:12):
They teach you how to do it, but it's very
much learning how to observe your thoughts and feelings, understand
that they might not necessarily be right. Understand that there's
a common set of distortions that our brains can do,
like black or white thinking, or predicting the future, or
catastrophizing or magnifying or diminishing and go hang on any
(24:36):
of those things, going on, Oh yeah they are. Okay,
what's a different thought I might be able to have
about this?
Speaker 2 (24:40):
Oh? I could think about it in this way?
Speaker 3 (24:42):
Okay, great, let's try that, and then just taking the
breath and going all right, like it could mean like
the day that I lost two jobs in one day,
the ones that how I ended up like no job,
out of money, out of work, living in America, and
my man, David, he says to me, I'm excited for you, pal.
(25:04):
It means that universe have got bigger plans for you.
I said, I don't believe you, man, you didn't hear me.
I just said I lost both my last one day
and I have no job. I don't believe you heard me.
I'm excited for you. The universe has bigger plans for you. Now,
I'm not really a believer in the universe gives me
what I ask for kind of thing. But what he
was trying to tell me was you can look at
it like everything sucks and my life is terrible, or
(25:27):
you can look at it as okay, now I can
make anything happen here.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
Both those things can be true. We get to choose
which one.
Speaker 3 (25:33):
And that's kind of what the cognitive behavioral therapy thing, right,
Acceptance commitment therapy is.
Speaker 1 (25:38):
This is this so what?
Speaker 2 (25:41):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (25:41):
Now what?
Speaker 2 (25:42):
Yah? So yeah, that's yeah, we worked.
Speaker 3 (25:45):
Accept As commitment therapy is it does what it says
on the tin, right, and it is accepting the thing
you can't control, and then action in accordance with your values.
I'm not alone in this, but about I don't know,
eight weeks or ten weeks before Wolfgang was born.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
I was doing really well.
Speaker 3 (26:01):
I was off meds for the first time in a
long time, fantastic, life is going really well. That it
was getting worse and I didn't want to I would
admit it, and it was getting worse. And then we
were on We had a weekend away with g and
it was like the last week that we could fly
before Audrey was like too pregnant to fly. And she
just took one look at me and says, I need
(26:22):
you to go back to you psychiatrist, get back on meds.
You've got to be around because you're getting bad. And
I knew enough to know, right I got to I
don't know it when I'm in it. And if she's
telling me, I need to go see my doctor, see
my doctor. So I emailed him and he sent me
a script.
Speaker 4 (26:36):
What could Audrey see that you couldn't see yourself because
you were immersed? Like, how did it manifest?
Speaker 2 (26:42):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (26:43):
Very rigid thinking, inability to change plans, in ability to
not do the thing that we talked about we were
going to do this morning. Now we're doing something else,
and just like it, being in a like unable to
cope with it short of temper, snappy, cranky, that kind
of stuff. But the rigid thinking is the and being
being a bit lost my brain getting very very full
(27:05):
with the noise of the scaries. That kind of takes
me a bit out at the moment. I kind of
get this, I'm not here look in my eye because
I'm busy tending to trying to put out the fires
in my head. And so I got back on the
meds and I was doing it. I was trying really hard,
but it wasn't getting better. And I was like, fucking hell,
I'm going to end up on anti psychotics again, because
(27:26):
I was on two kinds of anti psychotics and a
bunch of other heavy meds because.
Speaker 2 (27:31):
I got really, really sick.
Speaker 3 (27:32):
And I'm like, I didn't want to get back on
those meds because they're great because you're not crazy, but
you put a lot of weight because they messed with
your instulin response and your testosterone goes out the window
and the world feels like blue tag But it's nice
because you're not dealing with suicidal idiation all day. But
after a while it gets a bit like is this it?
So I went and found someone here in Sydney and
(27:54):
we started talking and lo and behold, she was the
one that helped me go through all the exposure, therapy,
all the you know.
Speaker 2 (28:04):
All that kind of stuff.
Speaker 3 (28:05):
It's teaching me the skill set to be with the
uncomfortable thoughts feelings, making space for those uncomfortable thoughts and
feelings and knowing that I can hold them in one hand,
and also be with the joy and giggling of my
son seeing rainbow lorikeet for the first time, and be
able to hold both of those things because what was
happening is my brain was just so full of the
(28:25):
negative I couldn't feel the good stuff. We have the
capacity to hold joy and sadness at the same time,
we have enough room to do it, but we brain
can get tripped to think, oh, it's bad, so everything's
got to be bad.
Speaker 4 (28:42):
Coming up after the break, Asher shares why being a
step parent is harder than being a parent. This is
very interesting who I constantly think about now when I
(29:02):
hear you do all of this.
Speaker 1 (29:04):
To explain all of this and the journey zeh is
audrey O wife.
Speaker 4 (29:09):
Yeah, yes, because it's one thing to be the person
who's putting the pieces in the puzzle of yourself, and
it's another thing to be the person who loves the
person who's constantly putting pieces and analyzing pieces and trying
to find how to make the picture complete or whatever,
(29:31):
like that's an amazing thing. She fell in love with you.
Did you explain to her how complex you were?
Speaker 3 (29:42):
I let her know her like the moment that it
had the hint of becoming romantic. I told her, Look,
I'm on a lot of anti psychotics and you know,
some SSRIs and nsros, so you know, if there's a
muted response, that's what's going on. So she knew from
(30:03):
the start, all right, But it is it is not easy.
It is not easy to be with someone who's trying
their best to trying to use the brain they've got
to live with the brain they've got.
Speaker 2 (30:16):
It's really hard.
Speaker 3 (30:17):
Because you mentioned the puzzle analogy, like a lot of
the time, a lot of the time, the big problems are, oh,
that's the answer, and then you know, charging at it
and then flipping the whole puzzle table upside down and
then having to start again and all you were trying
to do is make it better. And it sucks, man,
It sucks to know that sometimes I cause pain.
Speaker 2 (30:40):
To you know, my wife and my family.
Speaker 3 (30:44):
Because of a physiological thing that's going on between my ears.
But being aware of it is all I can do,
and taking action about it is all I can do.
Speaker 4 (30:55):
How old was Georgia when you and Audrey got together?
Speaker 2 (31:00):
She was ten?
Speaker 4 (31:01):
Ah? Interesting? Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's an amazing time to
enter a girl's life. Important.
Speaker 3 (31:11):
Yes, yes, step fatherhood is I'm gonna I'm there's step
parenting and then there's parenting, and I do both, Kate,
and I'm here to tell you step parenting is harder.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
Yeah, right, And why is that?
Speaker 3 (31:24):
Because you love the kid just as much, you dedicate
your life to them just as much.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
And because her dad's amazing. He's an amazing guy. I
love him.
Speaker 3 (31:36):
He's a great dude, and he's her dad. And I'm
never going to be there, all right, And I never
wanted to. I'm never going to and I never tried
to be Okay, though, there is a like this this
thing inside you that's like, oh there's a bit missing,
all right, and it's tough. It's really tough. It's really tough,
(32:01):
but it doesn't stop the reason that you want to
do it right.
Speaker 4 (32:04):
Okay, can I ask this? Did you have therapy for
being a step parent?
Speaker 3 (32:09):
Oh? Fuck, yeah, absolutely, yeah, so I was. That's the
trickiest part about being a stepparent is you are thrown
into this job without any of the training.
Speaker 2 (32:21):
Babies a great because it's the same thing.
Speaker 3 (32:23):
Every two hours for about three months if you're lucky,
and then slowly, over time you figure it out and
they're usually too little to notice when you've really fucked
it up. And you know, Maggie didn't said thirty percents
good enough, so I just aim for that, and so
you learn over time.
Speaker 2 (32:38):
How to deal with it.
Speaker 3 (32:40):
And then I'm thrown into We moved in together when
she was eleven, so I've an eleven year old with
like about six weeks of parenting experience, and I made
a lot of mistakes I wish I didn't make, but
I was doing the best I could with what I had,
and Audrey brilliantly recognized that we were going in a
not a great direction and a man, I love the
(33:00):
Australian healthcare system. I lived in America for ten years,
where universal kid does not exist. She reached out to
the children's hospital near US. They had a brilliant out
patient unit and one specifically designed for blended families coming together.
Speaker 2 (33:14):
And it was magnificent. It was magnificent.
Speaker 3 (33:17):
I think she saw g I think once or twice,
I don't know. But the rest of the time was
me and Audrey and.
Speaker 1 (33:22):
What did you learn about yourself?
Speaker 4 (33:25):
Because I think one of the things about being a
parent or being in a parental role is it's really
illuminating about yourself.
Speaker 3 (33:35):
Oh my god, it's the best and worst thing about
having kids is they don't do what you tell them.
Speaker 2 (33:41):
But I'll do everything you show them.
Speaker 1 (33:43):
That's so true.
Speaker 2 (33:46):
It is right.
Speaker 3 (33:47):
You start to hear them saying, feel like, she's why
does that piss me? Do it?
Speaker 2 (33:51):
Where did you learn it?
Speaker 3 (33:52):
Fuck?
Speaker 2 (33:52):
You learn it from me and I learned it from
my dad. Fuck it's on me. I have to stop this.
Speaker 1 (33:59):
So back to Audrey.
Speaker 4 (34:02):
When the role that someone plays when they love someone
anyway is in an any successful relationship of supporting role.
I don't mean a lesser role, but I mean literally
one of support.
Speaker 1 (34:18):
But then how do you when you have so much.
Speaker 4 (34:23):
Consuming you and the work of life and working out
your life, taking such a big chunk of you to
navigate things. How do you make sure that as your wife,
she's represented on the ledger?
Speaker 1 (34:43):
Do you know what I mean? Well, because because she takes.
Speaker 4 (34:49):
You have to take such good care of you, careful
care of you, and she's also taking care of you,
how are you taking care of her?
Speaker 2 (35:02):
Oh? This is the balance that any person in a
relationship has to face. In it there's the work life balance.
Speaker 3 (35:11):
But if you're also dealing with something else, I don't know,
if you're managing type one diabetes or whatever, like, you've
got to figure it out and you've got to put
systems in place. Okay, Yeah, And that's that's the way
that I try. I try to get around it, Like
I don't. I have varying degrees of success in this,
(35:32):
and sometimes I think I'm doing a great job and
I'm doing a terrible job. Sometimes I think I really
need to do more around here, and she's fine. More
around here is in like you know, as in connecting
with youths. Fine, But there's also the reality of you know,
there's the first kracky pretty much until they're teenagers that
(35:55):
are out with their friends a bit, the relationship that
you have, the intimate relationship you have at home with
you know, your personal parenting your kids with is.
Speaker 2 (36:04):
Going to be affected. I don't care who you are.
Speaker 3 (36:06):
There isn't enough bandwidth to do all of it, and
you're just going to have to find, you know, often
the kids are going to win. They're going to win,
all right, and you've got to be okay with with that.
Speaker 2 (36:19):
And it's it's hard. I'm not saying he's got to
be okay with me being a ship husband.
Speaker 3 (36:22):
I'm just saying that there is an element of that
that everybody deals with. But then there's the added element
that Audrey has to deal with where.
Speaker 2 (36:30):
I, you know, part of the brain.
Speaker 3 (36:32):
When I first got diagnosed my my doctor, you know,
I was like, oh my god, I got what he goes, Well,
what do you think you've got? The career you've got?
Come on, man, all right?
Speaker 4 (36:40):
So what was that diagnosis by? What was the first diagnosis?
Speaker 2 (36:47):
Wasn't the PTSD?
Speaker 3 (36:48):
Is when he when we started exploring o c D,
when we started exploring obsessive compulsive disorder.
Speaker 2 (36:52):
There's a collective a few letters.
Speaker 3 (36:57):
Some of which I've spoken about so which I'll speak
about in good time, but he helped me understand, like, well,
of course this is why you've got the life you've got,
because you've got this brain that your job now is
you need to take respond it's ability for it. And
you know, sometimes I can get I can get very
very focused, possibly too focused on things, and just forget,
(37:19):
not even forget. It's not even forget implies that it's
not important. My psychiatrist told me that I've got two
time zones. I've got now and not now, And sometimes
when I'm in the now part, it's as if the
not now doesn't exist. But then when I'm in the
knot now, which is now now, I think, why the
fuck didn't I do something about this? And now I
(37:40):
am facing the consequences of my inability to act when
I was back there in the now part, and that's very,
very hard, and trying to create systems that bridge those
two time zones has it's an ongoing challenge, and I
am I'm still trying to figure out how how to.
Speaker 2 (38:01):
Do it best. What he puts up with a lot
she really does.
Speaker 4 (38:08):
That's not all to my conversation with Osha after this break.
He explains how his wife, Audrey, has saved him. If
you had not embarked on the discovery via your various
(38:34):
forms of therapy, or your veganism or your giving up
alcohol or whatever, where do you think you would be now?
Speaker 1 (38:44):
And who would you be?
Speaker 2 (38:46):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (38:46):
I would be dead, There's no question, no question. Yeah,
I wouldn't be alive. There's absolutely no question, no question
at all. The horror that I was living with forget
about it, absolutely forget about it. But I got really,
really lucky because I knew something was wrong. I got
very lucky that not only did I realize something wasn't right,
I also got very lucky in that I knew there
(39:08):
had to be more to life than this. I did
not get born to wake up every day to be
in this level of pain and anxiety. This is not
what I was born for. There is more than this.
It cannot end with this. Cant this cannot be this
for the next fifty years of my life. It has
to get better. And I thankfully I have this brain
(39:28):
that once I said it on course, it just goes.
I got lucky and I was able to set my
brain on like, no, we will not accept this shittiness.
Speaker 2 (39:36):
We are going to find a way out of this.
Speaker 4 (39:38):
What would you like to say to Audrey Osha, say
something to you for life?
Speaker 3 (39:43):
Yes, yeah, yeah, It's no secret that Audrey saved my life.
There's no question because she when I was really bad,
she looked at me and she saw me and she
saw my sick brain as two separate things. And that
was very, very lucky that she did. So I'm so
(40:06):
grateful for Audrey's kindness and care and self reflection and
willingness to work on this all right, because I was told,
you know, after I've got divorced, and I was a
bit MOPy made of mine just said, mate, look, there's
no such thing as the one. There's just the one
who wants to work on it with you, and that's it.
And Audrey wants to work on this. Sometimes it's shift
(40:29):
fucking hard, man. Sometimes it's real.
Speaker 4 (40:32):
Hard, I believe, just keeping up with the parts of
the alphabet that you know about.
Speaker 1 (40:38):
There's a lot.
Speaker 3 (40:41):
Anyone that tries to tell you that marriage is not
a participation support is lying to you.
Speaker 2 (40:45):
All right.
Speaker 3 (40:46):
There's getting married and then there's staying married. They're two
different things, and one of them is a far more active,
participatory kind of thing.
Speaker 2 (40:55):
You really need to do it. You can't just expect
it to be there.
Speaker 3 (40:59):
And you know, there's times where, like anybody, like, there's
times where you're like, I don't know how we're going
to get to the end of the day is to
be married, and then at nighttime you're on the couch.
Speaker 2 (41:09):
Oh my god, I love your shit? Are you?
Speaker 3 (41:11):
And I'm just so grateful that Audrey is as of today,
still willing to work on it with me.
Speaker 2 (41:19):
I've put her through the Ringer.
Speaker 3 (41:20):
Man, but she's not alone, you know, and I'm very
I'm so grateful. I'm so grateful that she still has
the willingness to work on this with me.
Speaker 4 (41:30):
When you talk about also being a good dad to
Wolfy as well, how old he now nearly six, What
is the most important thing for you to model for him?
Like you said, people are always saying I tell my
kid this, and I tell my kid that, which is
(41:55):
not really taking into account as you said, they're watching
what we do.
Speaker 2 (41:59):
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:00):
What's the most important?
Speaker 3 (42:04):
I think at this point it is to be kind
and to be courageous and just teaching to be kind,
try shrying to be kind and shrying to be courageous,
all right, but you know he's five and it's going
to make mistakes. But that's also you know, to be
kind to yourself, to give yourself a break.
Speaker 1 (42:22):
Oshagunsberg, Kate Langbrook. If if you were to.
Speaker 4 (42:29):
Lose everything materially and you were down to the essence
of yourself, what part of yourself would you want to
hold onto the most?
Speaker 2 (42:42):
Curiosity? I think I think that's the for me.
Speaker 3 (42:48):
That's the key is to try to be curious, and
remember when I'm not being curious, just try to notice
what's going on. Like I'm here without any of my
stuff or my things or my little hand holdly thing
that I play with, and I'm talking to people like
you or my sauna or my kids or whatever.
Speaker 2 (43:06):
How do I feel about that?
Speaker 3 (43:08):
Because if I noticed how I feel about it, then
it's the two of us. It's the person that might
feel shitty about it and the person that's looking at
the person feeling shitty about it. And now I have
a choice, because if I'm just in it, I don't
really have many choices. Do I start to just be
reactive and that's probably not a great place to be.
Speaker 2 (43:25):
So I would say, yeah, curiosity, and are you happy?
Speaker 3 (43:32):
Happiness is not a destination, nor is happiness at all
something that lasts. Happiness is something that we must work at.
Happiness is something that is never permanent, and happiness can
only exist when we have sadness. Everything oscillates and we
(43:54):
have to be okay with that.
Speaker 2 (43:55):
All right.
Speaker 3 (43:56):
We can find happiness, but it doesn't It doesn't show
up when we buy shit. And this is the great
fallacy of the community that we live in. And I'm
as bad as anybody. Oh, look, other hour glass time
I can put it in most Yes, I love that,
all right, I'm as bad as anybody. I've got four
pairs of headphones sitting on this desk. Can I wear
(44:17):
four pairs of headphones at once?
Speaker 2 (44:19):
No?
Speaker 3 (44:19):
But I have four pairs of fucking headphones because I'm
an Happiness does not arrive from the purchase of stuff.
Happiness arrives from helping another person. Where are communal species?
We evolved because we banded together in communities, and forty
people are much better at looking after themselves than four,
(44:39):
all right, And it is through helping others that we
are wired to feel better. We are wired that we
are rewarded when we help other people. So be of
service to someone, help a person that will never help
you back, and just feel how good it feels.
Speaker 1 (44:56):
What do you think is your primary service?
Speaker 2 (45:00):
My primary service?
Speaker 1 (45:03):
So I know that communicating with people is a big
thing for you.
Speaker 2 (45:08):
I just want kids to be.
Speaker 3 (45:12):
You know, I want I want my kids to be
a positive addition to the community we live in. All right.
Speaker 2 (45:19):
That's that's the best.
Speaker 3 (45:20):
That's what That's the best I can do, all right,
that if I can make these two and help these
two wonderful, incredibly wonderful people be a positive contribution and
a positive addition to the community we live in, then
then that's everything that I can. If I can help
them find the things that they want in life, then
(45:41):
that's it.
Speaker 2 (45:41):
Man, that's it. It wasn't just me. That was like
a lot of people have to be there, Like we
all work to do that. There's a lot of people.
Speaker 4 (45:48):
In our life that helpful, sure, the village, but you
also have an extraordinary work ethic.
Speaker 2 (45:56):
I don't know how to not do it, all right,
I don't know. I don't know what. I don't know
what to do with myself If I'm not working, I don't.
Speaker 4 (46:04):
I know what you'll do sauna, I spa therapy, but
you've got.
Speaker 2 (46:10):
To make money to pay the therapist. Cake, they're not free. Okay,
maybe you need shoes you got from somewhere, all right?
Speaker 4 (46:20):
Ohha, thank you for joining us on No Filter. Thank you,
thanks for letting me poke around in your head.
Speaker 1 (46:28):
There's a lot of stuff in there than.
Speaker 3 (46:32):
I should also thank you because I remember I was
on radio once with a bloke you work for a
long time, Mattie Acton, and it was a breakfast radio.
Speaker 2 (46:43):
It is a tricky beast and it was one morning.
Speaker 3 (46:47):
You know, I got fucking caught up in a bunch
of shit in my brain and I kind of got
caught up with something and I heard you rightly critique
some ship that I sat on air, and I was
really grateful you did that.
Speaker 2 (46:58):
Oh do you remember that?
Speaker 1 (46:59):
What was it? I no, I can't remember. I said
something fucking dumb and what what's flavor of it?
Speaker 2 (47:07):
Was something about I think you was referring to a doctor.
Speaker 3 (47:10):
I was, I don't know what was going on with me,
and he goes, so you doctor, did he do this?
Speaker 2 (47:14):
And I went, come on, Matte, doctors can be women. Too, dude,
And it was.
Speaker 3 (47:18):
Like something that guy all right, Like I had a
felt on and yeah, you know, and I was on
about you know, patriarchy, this and that and the other,
and you talked about it on air and I remember
reading it and I went, you know what, she's you know,
that's fucking that's fair. And it gave me an opportunity
(47:39):
to have a look at where it was.
Speaker 2 (47:41):
And I was, actually, you know what.
Speaker 3 (47:43):
That was probably I've been a little caught up in
a bit of this business, and it gave me an
opportunity to have a bit of reflection and a bit
of space on that.
Speaker 2 (47:50):
And so I'm grateful that you did that.
Speaker 1 (47:54):
I can't remember it, but thank you. I thank you
for the thank you.
Speaker 2 (47:58):
No, it's important.
Speaker 3 (47:59):
It's important that we need to be able to change
our minds because at the time I wouldn't have said
it on air if I didn't believe it right, But
when you spoke about it, I've kind of had a
bit of a think about it, and you know what,
that was a bit of.
Speaker 1 (48:09):
A oh oh, it's here.
Speaker 4 (48:15):
Being a puppet for the patriarchy is not something he
can call anybody else out on because he works on
a show called The Bachelor that pimps out a dozen
young women to one man who's often a stripper, not always.
Speaker 1 (48:26):
Oh my goodness, we were.
Speaker 2 (48:31):
Were we?
Speaker 4 (48:31):
I was also wearing a felt hat, mind you, I
was filling three hours a dance.
Speaker 1 (48:36):
Was wow, that's amazing and we could have we could
have just done it.
Speaker 4 (48:42):
On top of a top of likening the reality show
to one that pimps out young women, Langbrook slammed Gudsburg
for calling his co host a puppet. You cannot Gunsburg
accuse anybody else of being a puppet, a tool, or
any part of the patriarchy as long as you are
this person. The show then proceeded to play a snippet
ofhs audio from the Batchel.
Speaker 2 (49:05):
And so wow, I'm grateful you.
Speaker 4 (49:08):
Oh things got hated between you and act and on Thursday,
when Acting referred to a listener's boss as mail, Oh
my goodness, I don't remember any of these well, but.
Speaker 2 (49:19):
I love I'm grateful that you.
Speaker 3 (49:21):
Isn't that wonderful how memory works for one, But I'm
also I'm just grateful that I'm grateful that you did
that all right, because we're not always going to get
it right. And as we said at the start of
this conversation, you know, I've chosen to put myself out
into the public and at the of what the public
think about what it is that I do.
Speaker 2 (49:40):
Some of those things I take and go nothing to
do with me.
Speaker 3 (49:44):
Some of those things I go, you know what, You've
got something there and I might need to I might
need to check that. And so I'm grateful that you
did that because it started me on a different way
of thinking about things.
Speaker 2 (49:56):
So thank you.
Speaker 1 (49:56):
Well, I'm also checking myself. You know, you've got to
check the checker.
Speaker 3 (50:05):
I believe it was asked QB who said you need
to check yourself before you wreck yourself.
Speaker 4 (50:09):
Believe you are right, my friend, AUVOI Osha, see you soon,
my friend.
Speaker 1 (50:20):
I think it's easy to think.
Speaker 4 (50:22):
Sometimes that people we see on our televisions are really
the sum of the parts that we see, and Osha
is the living embodiment of the fact that there's so
much more than what comes through the television. If you've
ever found yourself in a moment of reinvention or wondering
what comes next, I hope this conversation has been helpful
(50:46):
and has made you realize that you're not alone. In
that boat in the Life Vote. I'm Kate lane Brook,
host of No Filter. The executive producer is Nama Brown.
Senior producer is Bree Player, with audio production by Jacob Brown.
Thank you for listening to No Filter and I'll be
(51:07):
back next week with another unforgettable guest.
You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. Mama Mea acknowledges
the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast
is recorded on.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Oh I'll be dead, There's no question. There's no question.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
Yeah, I wouldn't be alive. There's absolutely no question, no
question at all. The horror that I was lining with.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Forget about it, absolutely forget about it.
Speaker 4 (00:36):
Welcome to No Filter. I'm Kate lane Brook. You know
Osher Gunsberg. He's the face of The Bachelor, The Bachelorette,
the Masks, singer and of course Australian Idol. He's the
voice of bond I Rescue and he's been so familiar
to us on our screens for more than two decades.
(00:58):
But what happens when the cameras stop rolling. In this conversation,
Osher talks about what it's been like to find his
footing in a changing industry and what it really feels
like to be in your fifties with years of experience
and struggling to find work. He opens up about the
financial pressure that comes with that and how he's learning
(01:20):
to redefine what success actually looks like. We also talk
about his ongoing mental health journey. There's no conversation with
Osher without addressing that, and what makes his marriage work
during tough times, why step fatherhood has been the most
(01:41):
rewarding and hardest role of his life. This is a
conversation about identity, resilience, and figuring out who you are
when everything around you starts to shift. He's a guy
who goes deep, and so do we. Oshagunsburg, Welcome to
(02:04):
No Filter.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
I'm thrilled to be here.
Speaker 4 (02:07):
Okay, So when I was doing my deep dive on you,
which I already was quite in deep with you actually
just through having been alive in this country, nobody can
interview you without referring to your haircuts or your name changes.
Speaker 3 (02:24):
Okay, if that's what they want, what I wink that
the content of what they bring to a production has
more to do.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
But no, But here's the thing.
Speaker 4 (02:35):
I actually think that they're markers of certain periods in
your life.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Of course, as is the therapy.
Speaker 4 (02:45):
That you have embarked upon that goes with each of those,
and the self work that you have done.
Speaker 3 (02:52):
Oh yeah, and maybe I've been a bit more visual
or visible about that than others, because you can't be
what you can't see. And I felt it was important
to start talking about the kind of things that I
needed to hear when I wasn't doing very well. And
I think it's important to normalize this stuff. You're nice
stranger to normalizing difficult conversations, and I think it's important
(03:15):
that if you just start speaking in a way. Look,
I'm a human like anybody, and I do life that
might be a little more visible than others, but you know,
I'm a human being and I do human stuff, and
it's human to feel these things. And if you're feeling
some of them, they can end in this way, but
if you do something about it, it can end up better.
Speaker 4 (03:34):
I'm curious about the point at which because your evolution
has been remarkable, and as you said, a lot of
it conducted under the like often obsessive and cruel scrutiny
of the public eye, right, and you have a remarkable
(03:54):
capacity to bring yourself to things.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
Well, I chose this job, all right.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
There's a moment in Godfather Part two where Michael Corleoni
is talking a hymen Roth.
Speaker 4 (04:05):
Please do the accent, Please do the accent, Please do
the accent, Please do the accent.
Speaker 3 (04:10):
You know he's talking to hyd Roth, who is actually
his acting coach and one of the great acting coaches
of the world. He's upset at Michael Coleoni for whacking
one of his friends, and he says, but I never
complained because it was business, and this is the business
we have chosen, And this is the job I chose.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
I chose a public facing job.
Speaker 3 (04:29):
And there's parts of the public facing job that I
have dealt with in lately far better ways.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
Than I used to, But there's this is the job
I chose.
Speaker 3 (04:40):
I chose a job where I am putting myself out
to the opinions of the public. And part of the
work that I get to do is I get to
have a long, hard look at myself in the magical
maas and mirrors and really get to choose what those
opinions of the public mean to me. And in the
past I have sometimes made the mean all kinds of
(05:01):
things and it has derailed me in parts, and lately,
in the last fifteen years or so, it's been a
lot easier. So yeah, I mean, it's important. It's important
to be able to have this kind of conversation publicly,
and that's why I started the podcast in twenty thirteen.
Bookcase I wasn't hearing the kind of things that I
was needing to hear when I.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
Wasn't doing very well. I wasn't doing well when I
started that show. And similarly, that's why I wrote this book.
Speaker 3 (05:24):
In what was I wrote this book because I read
this book because I wish this is the book that
I wish I had when I wasn't doing very well.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
This is the book you're talking about, So what now?
Speaker 3 (05:33):
What?
Speaker 1 (05:35):
And when I was reading it, which was it's very accessible.
Speaker 4 (05:40):
It's a graphic novel, and I think when I first
got it this might be a metaphor for you. I
underestimated what it would contain within do you know what
I mean?
Speaker 1 (05:51):
Because of the presentation of it seems.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
So I'm all about the trojan horse, all about it.
You know.
Speaker 3 (05:58):
It's if I can, if I can sneak into the
machine and disrupt from the inside, then I've done my job.
And if I can present a set of tools that
for me were life saving in a way that doesn't
feel like I'm trying to tell you something, doesn't see
it feel like I know better than you, or it
doesn't feel like you're broken, and it's just look, here's
(06:21):
some stuff. Take it or leave it, it's up to you,
and then I've done my job right and I worked
really really hard to hopefully thread that needle.
Speaker 4 (06:29):
What was it If we go back to twenty thirteen
when you started your podcast and you said you wanted
somewhere basically to find some tools that would help you
where you were at that time. Where were you at
that time that needed that.
Speaker 3 (06:45):
Twenty thirteen, I've been sober for about three years.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
I just got divorced.
Speaker 3 (06:53):
I was out in Los Angeles, paying rent out of
my savings and kind of starting to maybe get whiffs
that there might be I was creating TV formats and
I'm pitching them down in Australia and I was in
pre production for a TV show when it was a
dating show, and I was in pre production for this
(07:14):
dating show, and then the network said, hey, I know
you're here doing pre production on this dating show, but
we just put another dating show.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
It's called Bachelor. Would you want to host that? Yes?
I would.
Speaker 3 (07:25):
So I was out here by myself back in Australia,
kind of single and sober for the first time, trying
to figure it out, dealing with degrading like sometimes better
mental health than I had in a long time, but
in many ways worse mental health than I had a
long time, and I wasn't hearing the kind of conversations
(07:46):
I needed to hear, which was that other people also
had similar struggles and other people found ways to overcome
them and just to normalize stuff like not necessarily I
need to find the answer in this next three minutes
of audio.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
Just oh yeah, I know that.
Speaker 3 (08:01):
And I do a lot of jobs to keep my
mortgage paid these days, Kate, it used to be just
one or two is about thirteen. But there's a through
line to all of them. And I think the one
job that I think I do better, that's than everything.
The one job I do is to I try to
make people feel less alone. That's my job, okay, And
(08:22):
that be through a book or a podcast, or whether
I'm doing a keynote or hosting a TV show.
Speaker 1 (08:27):
Giving a girl a rose, I am.
Speaker 3 (08:30):
I am a one man example of the Mandela effect
because I've never given anyway. I never a rose once, never,
not one time, but I ever give a rose.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
But everyone asked me, did you ever give a rose?
Speaker 3 (08:42):
Like?
Speaker 1 (08:42):
No, that is Mandela effect.
Speaker 4 (08:45):
I get to be a I think I always thought
watching that show well, I wondered how much input you.
Speaker 1 (08:52):
Had to it.
Speaker 3 (08:53):
Thankfully, in later seasons an amount which was more than
other people would expect from the host of a show.
They were the production company was very very open to input,
and we were all creating it together, which I'm very
very great for.
Speaker 4 (09:09):
You know, you're not the one who drove it off
the tracks though with the multiple bachelors, because that was
a shark jumping moment.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
I couldn't keep art.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (09:21):
You've been involved in you've been involved in in very
very highly successful shows, and you've been involved in shows that,
even though they've been highly successful and you're trying new things,
sometimes those things don't work and you're doing everything you can,
and you know, sometimes things change around you. You're doing
all the stuff you're doing right and it might it
might not hit, but you've got to take a risk.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (09:44):
I think there's a lot of factors that went into
how there's there's always a lot of factors that go
into how a TV format grows and changes over time.
Some of those things make that TV format keep going
and sometimes they don't. But sometimes those things are completely
iudio control. You know, it could be the license fee
that they signed with the format owner that makes it
no longer affordable to make. It's got nothing to do
(10:06):
with with you. It's show business, not your friends. And
there may be a business case that doesn't equal the
production budget and then the show stops going and that's.
Speaker 4 (10:14):
Fine, okay, So on that note, this is an unusual time.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
But in show.
Speaker 4 (10:20):
Bees, which is my bees and your bees, these are
weird times. And we know that the weird times have
come and knocking for other people already. Do you know
what I mean? Like in automation of production or someone
who was a journalist would know this, But now it's
knocking on our door.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
How does that feel?
Speaker 4 (10:41):
Because you have been such a big part of Australian television,
You've been one of the most widely seen hosts across
a variety of formats, and because you are prone to introspection,
how do you process that?
Speaker 2 (10:59):
So what you're talking about is that? And I asked
this this morning.
Speaker 3 (11:03):
We're recording this a day after I was voted off
the Island of Dancing with the Stuff, and I asked
the publicist johnno this morning, I said, what were the
numbers last night? And you know, he said, some numbers whatever,
they were nine hundred something. I was like, oh, so
nine is a new one and ones a new two.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
Pretty much. There was a time when you would get
two million and not even you know, you.
Speaker 3 (11:25):
Get one point five, not even blinked, right, you get
one point five now like you're taking the.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
Board to lunch.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
Or they're taking you to lunch.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
Yeah, my part.
Speaker 3 (11:37):
I can only control my part in this, Kate, and
that would be that I was so busy trying to
be the healthiest. I could be the best husband, I
could be the best dad stepdad, that I could be
the best person who does my job.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
That I could be, and trying to be that.
Speaker 3 (11:55):
Not succeeding, but you know, to the level I would
like to in many of those ways, but doing my
very best. I was too busy doing that to look
up and notice things like share prices and ratings and
viewership across the board and market ad spend and business
stuff that I have never really needed to pay attention
(12:15):
to earlier in my career, but lately understood that, oh crikey,
if the ad revenue is not coming in, then the
production budget's not justified, and it's got nothing to do
with the kind of job that I do. I could
do the best job ever. Both the show's too expensive
to make, they can't make it, and so that was
my part. I was too busy making this stuff. And
then I kind of looked up and realized I was
(12:36):
the last one left. Other people had seen this coming,
but I didn't, And that's my responsibility to own. We're
in a very very interesting time, Don't get me wrong.
There's more people looking at screens than they've ever looked
at screens before. Yes, there's more advertising money and visual
media than there has been in a really, really, really
long time. It's just not in the business models that
(12:59):
existed that I came up.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
It's not on the big screen in the living room.
Speaker 3 (13:04):
Well it is, it is, it's just not through the
previously it inherent owned channels that existed. It's an arm
wrestle over HDMI one for everyone's living room, okay, and
most of the time that HDMI one is going to
be at Apple Box or might be just a smart TV, right,
(13:25):
and the first button's going to be Netflix, the second
button's going to be YouTube, or maybe the other way around.
And way down the end somewhere is Australian freedoware it apps,
And that's really really difficult for many, many reasons.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
And it's not just from an industry reason.
Speaker 3 (13:42):
When you know, whenever I run into somebody that I've
worked with, I'm like, oh my god, you're working Stoke
for you. Okay, it's not just for those reasons. I
feel that as a country we need to really take
a long, hard look at ourselves about how much we
value our culture and what value it is to us
as a nation to have a cohesive cultural narrative.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
We still have it through sport, which we're lucky.
Speaker 4 (14:08):
Sort of, even though that it's a divide. That's a
divide as well.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, we do still like supports so much.
Speaker 3 (14:15):
But it is really really important that A great example
would be the Coldplay meme. Yeah, okay, that moment where
everyone knows the thing you're talking about. Yes, that hasn't
happened in three fucking years, okay, but it used to
happen every day. Every single day. You would go to
(14:36):
work and say did you see that? I saw that?
And everyone knew what you want.
Speaker 4 (14:41):
By the way, in case there's two people that don't know,
it was the CEO with his head of HR at
the Cold Blake concert. Who got caught on the jumbo
tron kissing It was sprang apart so guiltily it was.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
It was okay.
Speaker 3 (15:01):
Chris Martin shitting ingrin really sold it though, it was
like and even he knew.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
You really needed that on the scene. But this is
this is the thing.
Speaker 3 (15:09):
We we had this cultural moment that complete strangers were
able to relate to the same thing and go, yes,
we both saw this thing, and we both relate to
this thing, and this gives us a little way point
for which to navigate the rest of our lives around
because right now, there used to be four versions of
the news every night, and that was what the news.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
Was all right.
Speaker 3 (15:27):
Now there's any version of the news that you want,
and none of it will make you uncomfortable. If you choose,
you can watch all your news through a lens that
gives you just what you want to hear about it,
and not what you don't that makes you feel funny
in the tummy. It's really important that we see ourselves
and our stories on screen, and whether it be through
an unscripted format like a singing show or a cooking
(15:49):
show or Great Australian Bake Off, which I love, even
though I can't eat any of it because I'm vegan
and Celiac, but it's somethink.
Speaker 2 (15:55):
It's a really wholesome show and I really love it.
Speaker 3 (15:57):
Or you know, any kind of nonscripted reality show or drama.
It's really really important that we see our culture reflected.
Otherwise we're just going to end up like a weird
echo of America and the right and because the Australian
cultural value needs it's the third actor in any scene
(16:17):
that you ever watch, right, the way that Australians look
at something. If you look at any American cop show
or any American show, there's always the idea that someone
might have a gun and they're not afraid to use it.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
Well, that doesn't happen. So how do we get out
of a sticky situation here? All Right?
Speaker 3 (16:33):
It's really really important that we value our culture, and
we value our storytellers, and that we value the people
that make those stories. We wouldn't let gastroentrologists go out of
work if we suddenly killed Celiac disease, but we would
keep them around in case we needed them. But we're
about to have this gigantic loss of knowledge in our
storytelling industries, radio, television, film that we're not going to
(16:55):
get back.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
And that's a really weird place for us to be.
Speaker 4 (16:58):
And I don't think anybody would argue that it's not important.
And when I say anybody, I mean people. People know
that's important. People know what they value.
Speaker 3 (17:10):
There was a thing that used to happen where we
had local content rules. Having worked in radio, you would
understand why you would have Australian artist on radio because
there was a mandate if you had a broadcast license
you needed to play a certain percentage of Australian music.
Right that also exists with free toware broadcasters. You have
to have a certain percentage of Australian content that does
not exist for the streamers. Okay, And we talk a
(17:33):
lot about tariffs or subsidies and such like this. We'll
subsidize fossil fuel in our country up the freakin' wa Zoo.
We will give overseas companies billions of dollars of our
sovereign wealth for no tax whatsoever. We're not protecting our
culture and protecting the stories that make us Australian. By
protecting our storytelling industries, we don't will high vis so
(17:54):
we don't matter and that sucks. But when it's gone,
we're not going to be able to get it back.
And then we become this, like I said, we've become
this weird rhyming slang of you know, either an American
or a British view on things, and it's really weird.
Speaker 4 (18:07):
So Ashualy, you know, you referred to having several jobs
now to pay your mortgage thirteen and I think you
said now whereas once it only took one or two.
Not literal, but your point is a valid one you
must encounter all the time, the assumption that because you
work in such a public facing role that you are
(18:34):
cashed up to the moon and back.
Speaker 3 (18:37):
I'm the same as anybody, right, I know we're supposed
to live within our means. But like anyone, you get
the mortgage that you think, yeah, we can do that.
Speaker 2 (18:49):
I don't you want job you're in, that's what you do,
and you just back yourself. Yep, thirty years, let's go,
otherwise you'll never leave the rental.
Speaker 4 (19:00):
And by the way, everyone's mortgage in Australia now is
eye watering.
Speaker 2 (19:06):
Everybody.
Speaker 3 (19:07):
I don't care who you are, all right, you got
the mortgage that you breathed in through your teeth, and
it might.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
Be caravan parks for wild kids, and you know when.
Speaker 3 (19:15):
It comes to holidays, but you hit go and and
our situation is the same. You know, you you live,
you build a life, you know within, you build a
life that is in response to the work that you're doing.
And certainly once kids show up, you know, you get
(19:36):
into schools and you start doing all kinds of things,
and those expenses don't just go away. I had four
primetime TV shows on the mortgage form. None of those
I was going to show.
Speaker 4 (19:46):
I hope that's not the time that you actually got
your mortgage, but it is.
Speaker 3 (19:51):
It was, and none of those shows exist now. But
we're still here because I have had to be very
innovative about what you said, I'm trying to do here.
It's the same dance at anyone plays. And you know,
whether we get to stay here or not, I don't know.
But look the days of oh, you've got our job
in television, so now you are set for life that
(20:13):
have not.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
Existed since the eighties.
Speaker 3 (20:15):
Man, like pre GFC TV money, I saw the like
a glimpse of the back end of it, But that
stuff doesn't yest.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
Not in Australia, no way. Man. Nah. There's people who
don't work anywhere near broadcast.
Speaker 3 (20:30):
TV that make way more money using their freaking phone.
Speaker 1 (20:34):
This is very interesting because it's interesting kind.
Speaker 4 (20:37):
Of on a macro and a micro level, or you know,
on a more personal level.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
What does it mean for you?
Speaker 4 (20:46):
Like, how do you feel about Really, you've been on
our screens for I'm going to say twenty years longer.
Speaker 2 (20:54):
Probably started in ninety nine, Yeah, so.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
Twenty six years.
Speaker 4 (20:59):
What does it feel like for you when you realize,
like you said that this was you with a frog
in the boiling water, not really realizing what was going
on around you. But like you said, you've got a
mortgage to pay, and you've got a wife, and you've
got a kid, you've got to a step daughter, and
you've got a life to live.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
How does that feel?
Speaker 2 (21:22):
I mean, like, I mean, I'm not special.
Speaker 3 (21:26):
I'm not the only fifty something year old guy that's
found themselves at the wrong end of a you know,
a shrinkage in a market or a technological iteration. You know,
this happens in many, many, many industries. As we mentioned,
I just get to do it public a little more
publicly than others. And you know, in many ways, it's
(21:46):
what the book is about.
Speaker 2 (21:48):
It's you know, four wonderful words. So what now?
Speaker 3 (21:50):
What Am I going to be upset about it? Or
am I going to do something about it? Because I
can be upset about it, but all that's going to
happen is I'll just stay upset about it and nothing
will happen and it'll just get worse. Or I could
do something about it, and being in action will get
me as long as I'm in moving towards what I value,
which is looking after my family and try to connect
(22:11):
with people and try to make people feel less alone.
Being an action will feel better, even if it's not
bringing money in the door.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
Being an action will feel better than doing nothing.
Speaker 3 (22:21):
And it is through that action that the clues and
the spontaneity and the serendipity that bring the next opportunity.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
A right, So the so what now?
Speaker 4 (22:30):
What is based on a certain type of therapy? You
know a lot about therapy? Can you tell me what
types of therapy you know about?
Speaker 3 (22:40):
Oh? Well, look, it's different courses for different horses.
Speaker 2 (22:45):
Okay, If horse rest is your thing, it's not really mine.
Speaker 3 (22:48):
But you know, you can go to a physio for
some things, you go to a chiropractor for others. All right,
there's the same people they put their elbows in your back,
but they do different things. Similarly, there's different kinds of
therapists for different kinds of situations, and therapy is something
that you can go to for a while and then
you get us at tools and the kind of hold
(23:09):
your hand for a bit and then they kind of
patch you on the bum and send you off into
the world. And with that set of tools, you've now
been able to expand your universe and have a bit
more possibility. But then might happen is now you're in
this new world and you can do things. You might
get an new job or a new partner, or have
a kid, or change jobs or move state. And now
you've got a bit more stress in your life. Oh
now I don't have enough skills. I better go back
and grab a few more tools so I can get
(23:30):
through this next bit. And so that's basically what I've done,
because I know when I'm outgunned, and I know when
I need ideas that aren't mine to get me out
of the woods. And I think The first bunch of
therapy I learned was cognitive behavioral therapy. It's called CBT.
But don't google that because you will not find behavioral therapy.
Speaker 2 (23:50):
Oh no, no no.
Speaker 3 (23:52):
And that's a broadly kind of available It's got its
ups and downs, you know, but a broadly available, self
administered kind of thing, and it's really really powerful stuff.
Speaker 2 (24:03):
You've got to work at it, though, you've got to
use it.
Speaker 4 (24:04):
Is that a one on one thing? So you go
to the cognitive behavior therapists?
Speaker 2 (24:10):
Oh yeah, they teach you how to do it.
Speaker 3 (24:12):
They teach you how to do it, but it's very
much learning how to observe your thoughts and feelings, understand
that they might not necessarily be right. Understand that there's
a common set of distortions that our brains can do,
like black or white thinking, or predicting the future, or
catastrophizing or magnifying or diminishing and go hang on any
(24:36):
of those things, going on, Oh yeah they are. Okay,
what's a different thought I might be able to have
about this?
Speaker 2 (24:40):
Oh? I could think about it in this way?
Speaker 3 (24:42):
Okay, great, let's try that, and then just taking the
breath and going all right, like it could mean like
the day that I lost two jobs in one day,
the ones that how I ended up like no job,
out of money, out of work, living in America, and
my man, David, he says to me, I'm excited for you, pal.
(25:04):
It means that universe have got bigger plans for you.
I said, I don't believe you, man, you didn't hear me.
I just said I lost both my last one day
and I have no job. I don't believe you heard me.
I'm excited for you. The universe has bigger plans for you. Now,
I'm not really a believer in the universe gives me
what I ask for kind of thing. But what he
was trying to tell me was you can look at
it like everything sucks and my life is terrible, or
(25:27):
you can look at it as okay, now I can
make anything happen here.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
Both those things can be true. We get to choose
which one.
Speaker 3 (25:33):
And that's kind of what the cognitive behavioral therapy thing, right,
Acceptance commitment therapy is.
Speaker 1 (25:38):
This is this so what?
Speaker 2 (25:41):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (25:41):
Now what?
Speaker 2 (25:42):
Yah? So yeah, that's yeah, we worked.
Speaker 3 (25:45):
Accept As commitment therapy is it does what it says
on the tin, right, and it is accepting the thing
you can't control, and then action in accordance with your values.
I'm not alone in this, but about I don't know,
eight weeks or ten weeks before Wolfgang was born.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
I was doing really well.
Speaker 3 (26:01):
I was off meds for the first time in a
long time, fantastic, life is going really well. That it
was getting worse and I didn't want to I would
admit it, and it was getting worse. And then we
were on We had a weekend away with g and
it was like the last week that we could fly
before Audrey was like too pregnant to fly. And she
just took one look at me and says, I need
(26:22):
you to go back to you psychiatrist, get back on meds.
You've got to be around because you're getting bad. And
I knew enough to know, right I got to I
don't know it when I'm in it. And if she's
telling me, I need to go see my doctor, see
my doctor. So I emailed him and he sent me
a script.
Speaker 4 (26:36):
What could Audrey see that you couldn't see yourself because
you were immersed? Like, how did it manifest?
Speaker 2 (26:42):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (26:43):
Very rigid thinking, inability to change plans, in ability to
not do the thing that we talked about we were
going to do this morning. Now we're doing something else,
and just like it, being in a like unable to
cope with it short of temper, snappy, cranky, that kind
of stuff. But the rigid thinking is the and being
being a bit lost my brain getting very very full
(27:05):
with the noise of the scaries. That kind of takes
me a bit out at the moment. I kind of
get this, I'm not here look in my eye because
I'm busy tending to trying to put out the fires
in my head. And so I got back on the
meds and I was doing it. I was trying really hard,
but it wasn't getting better. And I was like, fucking hell,
I'm going to end up on anti psychotics again, because
(27:26):
I was on two kinds of anti psychotics and a
bunch of other heavy meds because.
Speaker 2 (27:31):
I got really, really sick.
Speaker 3 (27:32):
And I'm like, I didn't want to get back on
those meds because they're great because you're not crazy, but
you put a lot of weight because they messed with
your instulin response and your testosterone goes out the window
and the world feels like blue tag But it's nice
because you're not dealing with suicidal idiation all day. But
after a while it gets a bit like is this it?
So I went and found someone here in Sydney and
(27:54):
we started talking and lo and behold, she was the
one that helped me go through all the exposure, therapy,
all the you know.
Speaker 2 (28:04):
All that kind of stuff.
Speaker 3 (28:05):
It's teaching me the skill set to be with the
uncomfortable thoughts feelings, making space for those uncomfortable thoughts and
feelings and knowing that I can hold them in one hand,
and also be with the joy and giggling of my
son seeing rainbow lorikeet for the first time, and be
able to hold both of those things because what was
happening is my brain was just so full of the
(28:25):
negative I couldn't feel the good stuff. We have the
capacity to hold joy and sadness at the same time,
we have enough room to do it, but we brain
can get tripped to think, oh, it's bad, so everything's
got to be bad.
Speaker 4 (28:42):
Coming up after the break, Asher shares why being a
step parent is harder than being a parent. This is
very interesting who I constantly think about now when I
(29:02):
hear you do all of this.
Speaker 1 (29:04):
To explain all of this and the journey zeh is
audrey O wife.
Speaker 4 (29:09):
Yeah, yes, because it's one thing to be the person
who's putting the pieces in the puzzle of yourself, and
it's another thing to be the person who loves the
person who's constantly putting pieces and analyzing pieces and trying
to find how to make the picture complete or whatever,
(29:31):
like that's an amazing thing. She fell in love with you.
Did you explain to her how complex you were?
Speaker 3 (29:42):
I let her know her like the moment that it
had the hint of becoming romantic. I told her, Look,
I'm on a lot of anti psychotics and you know,
some SSRIs and nsros, so you know, if there's a
muted response, that's what's going on. So she knew from
(30:03):
the start, all right, But it is it is not easy.
It is not easy to be with someone who's trying
their best to trying to use the brain they've got
to live with the brain they've got.
Speaker 2 (30:16):
It's really hard.
Speaker 3 (30:17):
Because you mentioned the puzzle analogy, like a lot of
the time, a lot of the time, the big problems are, oh,
that's the answer, and then you know, charging at it
and then flipping the whole puzzle table upside down and
then having to start again and all you were trying
to do is make it better. And it sucks, man,
It sucks to know that sometimes I cause pain.
Speaker 2 (30:40):
To you know, my wife and my family.
Speaker 3 (30:44):
Because of a physiological thing that's going on between my ears.
But being aware of it is all I can do,
and taking action about it is all I can do.
Speaker 4 (30:55):
How old was Georgia when you and Audrey got together?
Speaker 2 (31:00):
She was ten?
Speaker 4 (31:01):
Ah? Interesting? Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's an amazing time to
enter a girl's life. Important.
Speaker 3 (31:11):
Yes, yes, step fatherhood is I'm gonna I'm there's step
parenting and then there's parenting, and I do both, Kate,
and I'm here to tell you step parenting is harder.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
Yeah, right, And why is that?
Speaker 3 (31:24):
Because you love the kid just as much, you dedicate
your life to them just as much.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
And because her dad's amazing. He's an amazing guy. I
love him.
Speaker 3 (31:36):
He's a great dude, and he's her dad. And I'm
never going to be there, all right, And I never
wanted to. I'm never going to and I never tried
to be Okay, though, there is a like this this
thing inside you that's like, oh there's a bit missing,
all right, and it's tough. It's really tough. It's really tough,
(32:01):
but it doesn't stop the reason that you want to
do it right.
Speaker 4 (32:04):
Okay, can I ask this? Did you have therapy for
being a step parent?
Speaker 3 (32:09):
Oh? Fuck, yeah, absolutely, yeah, so I was. That's the
trickiest part about being a stepparent is you are thrown
into this job without any of the training.
Speaker 2 (32:21):
Babies a great because it's the same thing.
Speaker 3 (32:23):
Every two hours for about three months if you're lucky,
and then slowly, over time you figure it out and
they're usually too little to notice when you've really fucked
it up. And you know, Maggie didn't said thirty percents
good enough, so I just aim for that, and so
you learn over time.
Speaker 2 (32:38):
How to deal with it.
Speaker 3 (32:40):
And then I'm thrown into We moved in together when
she was eleven, so I've an eleven year old with
like about six weeks of parenting experience, and I made
a lot of mistakes I wish I didn't make, but
I was doing the best I could with what I had,
and Audrey brilliantly recognized that we were going in a
not a great direction and a man, I love the
(33:00):
Australian healthcare system. I lived in America for ten years,
where universal kid does not exist. She reached out to
the children's hospital near US. They had a brilliant out
patient unit and one specifically designed for blended families coming together.
Speaker 2 (33:14):
And it was magnificent. It was magnificent.
Speaker 3 (33:17):
I think she saw g I think once or twice,
I don't know. But the rest of the time was
me and Audrey and.
Speaker 1 (33:22):
What did you learn about yourself?
Speaker 4 (33:25):
Because I think one of the things about being a
parent or being in a parental role is it's really
illuminating about yourself.
Speaker 3 (33:35):
Oh my god, it's the best and worst thing about
having kids is they don't do what you tell them.
Speaker 2 (33:41):
But I'll do everything you show them.
Speaker 1 (33:43):
That's so true.
Speaker 2 (33:46):
It is right.
Speaker 3 (33:47):
You start to hear them saying, feel like, she's why
does that piss me? Do it?
Speaker 2 (33:51):
Where did you learn it?
Speaker 3 (33:52):
Fuck?
Speaker 2 (33:52):
You learn it from me and I learned it from
my dad. Fuck it's on me. I have to stop this.
Speaker 1 (33:59):
So back to Audrey.
Speaker 4 (34:02):
When the role that someone plays when they love someone
anyway is in an any successful relationship of supporting role.
I don't mean a lesser role, but I mean literally
one of support.
Speaker 1 (34:18):
But then how do you when you have so much.
Speaker 4 (34:23):
Consuming you and the work of life and working out
your life, taking such a big chunk of you to
navigate things. How do you make sure that as your wife,
she's represented on the ledger?
Speaker 1 (34:43):
Do you know what I mean? Well, because because she takes.
Speaker 4 (34:49):
You have to take such good care of you, careful
care of you, and she's also taking care of you,
how are you taking care of her?
Speaker 2 (35:02):
Oh? This is the balance that any person in a
relationship has to face. In it there's the work life balance.
Speaker 3 (35:11):
But if you're also dealing with something else, I don't know,
if you're managing type one diabetes or whatever, like, you've
got to figure it out and you've got to put
systems in place. Okay, Yeah, And that's that's the way
that I try. I try to get around it, Like
I don't. I have varying degrees of success in this,
(35:32):
and sometimes I think I'm doing a great job and
I'm doing a terrible job. Sometimes I think I really
need to do more around here, and she's fine. More
around here is in like you know, as in connecting
with youths. Fine, But there's also the reality of you know,
there's the first kracky pretty much until they're teenagers that
(35:55):
are out with their friends a bit, the relationship that
you have, the intimate relationship you have at home with
you know, your personal parenting your kids with is.
Speaker 2 (36:04):
Going to be affected. I don't care who you are.
Speaker 3 (36:06):
There isn't enough bandwidth to do all of it, and
you're just going to have to find, you know, often
the kids are going to win. They're going to win,
all right, and you've got to be okay with with that.
Speaker 2 (36:19):
And it's it's hard. I'm not saying he's got to
be okay with me being a ship husband.
Speaker 3 (36:22):
I'm just saying that there is an element of that
that everybody deals with. But then there's the added element
that Audrey has to deal with where.
Speaker 2 (36:30):
I, you know, part of the brain.
Speaker 3 (36:32):
When I first got diagnosed my my doctor, you know,
I was like, oh my god, I got what he goes, Well,
what do you think you've got? The career you've got?
Come on, man, all right?
Speaker 4 (36:40):
So what was that diagnosis by? What was the first diagnosis?
Speaker 2 (36:47):
Wasn't the PTSD?
Speaker 3 (36:48):
Is when he when we started exploring o c D,
when we started exploring obsessive compulsive disorder.
Speaker 2 (36:52):
There's a collective a few letters.
Speaker 3 (36:57):
Some of which I've spoken about so which I'll speak
about in good time, but he helped me understand, like, well,
of course this is why you've got the life you've got,
because you've got this brain that your job now is
you need to take respond it's ability for it. And
you know, sometimes I can get I can get very
very focused, possibly too focused on things, and just forget,
(37:19):
not even forget. It's not even forget implies that it's
not important. My psychiatrist told me that I've got two
time zones. I've got now and not now, And sometimes
when I'm in the now part, it's as if the
not now doesn't exist. But then when I'm in the
knot now, which is now now, I think, why the
fuck didn't I do something about this? And now I
(37:40):
am facing the consequences of my inability to act when
I was back there in the now part, and that's very,
very hard, and trying to create systems that bridge those
two time zones has it's an ongoing challenge, and I
am I'm still trying to figure out how how to.
Speaker 2 (38:01):
Do it best. What he puts up with a lot
she really does.
Speaker 4 (38:08):
That's not all to my conversation with Osha after this break.
He explains how his wife, Audrey, has saved him. If
you had not embarked on the discovery via your various
(38:34):
forms of therapy, or your veganism or your giving up
alcohol or whatever, where do you think you would be now?
Speaker 1 (38:44):
And who would you be?
Speaker 2 (38:46):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (38:46):
I would be dead, There's no question, no question. Yeah,
I wouldn't be alive. There's absolutely no question, no question
at all. The horror that I was living with forget
about it, absolutely forget about it. But I got really,
really lucky because I knew something was wrong. I got
very lucky that not only did I realize something wasn't right,
I also got very lucky in that I knew there
(39:08):
had to be more to life than this. I did
not get born to wake up every day to be
in this level of pain and anxiety. This is not
what I was born for. There is more than this.
It cannot end with this. Cant this cannot be this
for the next fifty years of my life. It has
to get better. And I thankfully I have this brain
(39:28):
that once I said it on course, it just goes.
I got lucky and I was able to set my
brain on like, no, we will not accept this shittiness.
Speaker 2 (39:36):
We are going to find a way out of this.
Speaker 4 (39:38):
What would you like to say to Audrey Osha, say
something to you for life?
Speaker 3 (39:43):
Yes, yeah, yeah, It's no secret that Audrey saved my life.
There's no question because she when I was really bad,
she looked at me and she saw me and she
saw my sick brain as two separate things. And that
was very, very lucky that she did. So I'm so
(40:06):
grateful for Audrey's kindness and care and self reflection and
willingness to work on this all right, because I was told,
you know, after I've got divorced, and I was a
bit MOPy made of mine just said, mate, look, there's
no such thing as the one. There's just the one
who wants to work on it with you, and that's it.
And Audrey wants to work on this. Sometimes it's shift
(40:29):
fucking hard, man. Sometimes it's real.
Speaker 4 (40:32):
Hard, I believe, just keeping up with the parts of
the alphabet that you know about.
Speaker 1 (40:38):
There's a lot.
Speaker 3 (40:41):
Anyone that tries to tell you that marriage is not
a participation support is lying to you.
Speaker 2 (40:45):
All right.
Speaker 3 (40:46):
There's getting married and then there's staying married. They're two
different things, and one of them is a far more active,
participatory kind of thing.
Speaker 2 (40:55):
You really need to do it. You can't just expect
it to be there.
Speaker 3 (40:59):
And you know, there's times where, like anybody, like, there's
times where you're like, I don't know how we're going
to get to the end of the day is to
be married, and then at nighttime you're on the couch.
Speaker 2 (41:09):
Oh my god, I love your shit? Are you?
Speaker 3 (41:11):
And I'm just so grateful that Audrey is as of today,
still willing to work on it with me.
Speaker 2 (41:19):
I've put her through the Ringer.
Speaker 3 (41:20):
Man, but she's not alone, you know, and I'm very
I'm so grateful. I'm so grateful that she still has
the willingness to work on this with me.
Speaker 4 (41:30):
When you talk about also being a good dad to
Wolfy as well, how old he now nearly six, What
is the most important thing for you to model for him?
Like you said, people are always saying I tell my
kid this, and I tell my kid that, which is
(41:55):
not really taking into account as you said, they're watching
what we do.
Speaker 2 (41:59):
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:00):
What's the most important?
Speaker 3 (42:04):
I think at this point it is to be kind
and to be courageous and just teaching to be kind,
try shrying to be kind and shrying to be courageous,
all right, but you know he's five and it's going
to make mistakes. But that's also you know, to be
kind to yourself, to give yourself a break.
Speaker 1 (42:22):
Oshagunsberg, Kate Langbrook. If if you were to.
Speaker 4 (42:29):
Lose everything materially and you were down to the essence
of yourself, what part of yourself would you want to
hold onto the most?
Speaker 2 (42:42):
Curiosity? I think I think that's the for me.
Speaker 3 (42:48):
That's the key is to try to be curious, and
remember when I'm not being curious, just try to notice
what's going on. Like I'm here without any of my
stuff or my things or my little hand holdly thing
that I play with, and I'm talking to people like
you or my sauna or my kids or whatever.
Speaker 2 (43:06):
How do I feel about that?
Speaker 3 (43:08):
Because if I noticed how I feel about it, then
it's the two of us. It's the person that might
feel shitty about it and the person that's looking at
the person feeling shitty about it. And now I have
a choice, because if I'm just in it, I don't
really have many choices. Do I start to just be
reactive and that's probably not a great place to be.
Speaker 2 (43:25):
So I would say, yeah, curiosity, and are you happy?
Speaker 3 (43:32):
Happiness is not a destination, nor is happiness at all
something that lasts. Happiness is something that we must work at.
Happiness is something that is never permanent, and happiness can
only exist when we have sadness. Everything oscillates and we
(43:54):
have to be okay with that.
Speaker 2 (43:55):
All right.
Speaker 3 (43:56):
We can find happiness, but it doesn't It doesn't show
up when we buy shit. And this is the great
fallacy of the community that we live in. And I'm
as bad as anybody. Oh, look, other hour glass time
I can put it in most Yes, I love that,
all right, I'm as bad as anybody. I've got four
pairs of headphones sitting on this desk. Can I wear
(44:17):
four pairs of headphones at once?
Speaker 2 (44:19):
No?
Speaker 3 (44:19):
But I have four pairs of fucking headphones because I'm
an Happiness does not arrive from the purchase of stuff.
Happiness arrives from helping another person. Where are communal species?
We evolved because we banded together in communities, and forty
people are much better at looking after themselves than four,
(44:39):
all right, And it is through helping others that we
are wired to feel better. We are wired that we
are rewarded when we help other people. So be of
service to someone, help a person that will never help
you back, and just feel how good it feels.
Speaker 1 (44:56):
What do you think is your primary service?
Speaker 2 (45:00):
My primary service?
Speaker 1 (45:03):
So I know that communicating with people is a big
thing for you.
Speaker 2 (45:08):
I just want kids to be.
Speaker 3 (45:12):
You know, I want I want my kids to be
a positive addition to the community we live in. All right.
Speaker 2 (45:19):
That's that's the best.
Speaker 3 (45:20):
That's what That's the best I can do, all right,
that if I can make these two and help these
two wonderful, incredibly wonderful people be a positive contribution and
a positive addition to the community we live in, then
then that's everything that I can. If I can help
them find the things that they want in life, then
(45:41):
that's it.
Speaker 2 (45:41):
Man, that's it. It wasn't just me. That was like
a lot of people have to be there, Like we
all work to do that. There's a lot of people.
Speaker 4 (45:48):
In our life that helpful, sure, the village, but you
also have an extraordinary work ethic.
Speaker 2 (45:56):
I don't know how to not do it, all right,
I don't know. I don't know what. I don't know
what to do with myself If I'm not working, I don't.
Speaker 4 (46:04):
I know what you'll do sauna, I spa therapy, but
you've got.
Speaker 2 (46:10):
To make money to pay the therapist. Cake, they're not free. Okay,
maybe you need shoes you got from somewhere, all right?
Speaker 4 (46:20):
Ohha, thank you for joining us on No Filter. Thank you,
thanks for letting me poke around in your head.
Speaker 1 (46:28):
There's a lot of stuff in there than.
Speaker 3 (46:32):
I should also thank you because I remember I was
on radio once with a bloke you work for a
long time, Mattie Acton, and it was a breakfast radio.
Speaker 2 (46:43):
It is a tricky beast and it was one morning.
Speaker 3 (46:47):
You know, I got fucking caught up in a bunch
of shit in my brain and I kind of got
caught up with something and I heard you rightly critique
some ship that I sat on air, and I was
really grateful you did that.
Speaker 2 (46:58):
Oh do you remember that?
Speaker 1 (46:59):
What was it? I no, I can't remember. I said
something fucking dumb and what what's flavor of it?
Speaker 2 (47:07):
Was something about I think you was referring to a doctor.
Speaker 3 (47:10):
I was, I don't know what was going on with me,
and he goes, so you doctor, did he do this?
Speaker 2 (47:14):
And I went, come on, Matte, doctors can be women. Too, dude,
And it was.
Speaker 3 (47:18):
Like something that guy all right, Like I had a
felt on and yeah, you know, and I was on
about you know, patriarchy, this and that and the other,
and you talked about it on air and I remember
reading it and I went, you know what, she's you know,
that's fucking that's fair. And it gave me an opportunity
(47:39):
to have a look at where it was.
Speaker 2 (47:41):
And I was, actually, you know what.
Speaker 3 (47:43):
That was probably I've been a little caught up in
a bit of this business, and it gave me an
opportunity to have a bit of reflection and a bit
of space on that.
Speaker 2 (47:50):
And so I'm grateful that you did that.
Speaker 1 (47:54):
I can't remember it, but thank you. I thank you
for the thank you.
Speaker 2 (47:58):
No, it's important.
Speaker 3 (47:59):
It's important that we need to be able to change
our minds because at the time I wouldn't have said
it on air if I didn't believe it right, But
when you spoke about it, I've kind of had a
bit of a think about it, and you know what,
that was a bit of.
Speaker 1 (48:09):
A oh oh, it's here.
Speaker 4 (48:15):
Being a puppet for the patriarchy is not something he
can call anybody else out on because he works on
a show called The Bachelor that pimps out a dozen
young women to one man who's often a stripper, not always.
Speaker 1 (48:26):
Oh my goodness, we were.
Speaker 2 (48:31):
Were we?
Speaker 4 (48:31):
I was also wearing a felt hat, mind you, I
was filling three hours a dance.
Speaker 1 (48:36):
Was wow, that's amazing and we could have we could
have just done it.
Speaker 4 (48:42):
On top of a top of likening the reality show
to one that pimps out young women, Langbrook slammed Gudsburg
for calling his co host a puppet. You cannot Gunsburg
accuse anybody else of being a puppet, a tool, or
any part of the patriarchy as long as you are
this person. The show then proceeded to play a snippet
ofhs audio from the Batchel.
Speaker 2 (49:05):
And so wow, I'm grateful you.
Speaker 4 (49:08):
Oh things got hated between you and act and on Thursday,
when Acting referred to a listener's boss as mail, Oh
my goodness, I don't remember any of these well, but.
Speaker 2 (49:19):
I love I'm grateful that you.
Speaker 3 (49:21):
Isn't that wonderful how memory works for one, But I'm
also I'm just grateful that I'm grateful that you did
that all right, because we're not always going to get
it right. And as we said at the start of
this conversation, you know, I've chosen to put myself out
into the public and at the of what the public
think about what it is that I do.
Speaker 2 (49:40):
Some of those things I take and go nothing to
do with me.
Speaker 3 (49:44):
Some of those things I go, you know what, You've
got something there and I might need to I might
need to check that. And so I'm grateful that you
did that because it started me on a different way
of thinking about things.
Speaker 2 (49:56):
So thank you.
Speaker 1 (49:56):
Well, I'm also checking myself. You know, you've got to
check the checker.
Speaker 3 (50:05):
I believe it was asked QB who said you need
to check yourself before you wreck yourself.
Speaker 4 (50:09):
Believe you are right, my friend, AUVOI Osha, see you soon,
my friend.
Speaker 1 (50:20):
I think it's easy to think.
Speaker 4 (50:22):
Sometimes that people we see on our televisions are really
the sum of the parts that we see, and Osha
is the living embodiment of the fact that there's so
much more than what comes through the television. If you've
ever found yourself in a moment of reinvention or wondering
what comes next, I hope this conversation has been helpful
(50:46):
and has made you realize that you're not alone. In
that boat in the Life Vote. I'm Kate lane Brook,
host of No Filter. The executive producer is Nama Brown.
Senior producer is Bree Player, with audio production by Jacob Brown.
Thank you for listening to No Filter and I'll be
(51:07):
back next week with another unforgettable guest.
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