July 20, 2025 • 51 mins
CJ Hendry is one of the world’s most successful working artists. But she didn’t go to art school. She didn’t have a plan. And for a long time, she didn’t even call herself an artist.
She was a uni dropout working in retail, with a side obsession for beautiful things. One day she sold her entire wardrobe on eBay, bought some pencils and paper, and started to draw. She shared her work online. Then Kanye West bought one of her pieces. And everything changed.
In this conversation, CJ tells Kate Langbroek how she built a global art business from scratch, without a gallery, a degree, or any of the traditional paths artists are expected to follow. She talks about the moment the Andy Warhol Foundation threatened to sue her, and how she turned it into an international scavenger hunt. She opens up about marriage, motherhood, money, and why Sundays nearly break her. And she shares how a rebrand in Year 5 became the first step in becoming who she is now.
CJ also makes a major announcement during this episode — one that her fans will not want to miss.
Whether you’ve never heard of CJ or have been following her work for years, this is the story of what can happen when someone doesn’t wait for permission.
You can follow CJ Hendry here.
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CREDITS:
Guest: CJ Hendry
Host: Kate Langbroek
Executive Producer: Naima Brown
Senior Producer: Bree Player
Audio Producer: Jacob Round
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. Mama Maya acknowledges
the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast
is recorded on.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
I think an hour before the release, we've got an
email from the warholl Foundation saying, Hey, you can't do this,
We'll sue you or whatever. A bit of a season
to syst oh at White a little bit panicky. I
was like, holish, a lot of shit.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
We have to pull it. Hi, I'm Kate Lane brook
Welcome to No Filter.
Speaker 3 (00:42):
C J. Hendry is one of the most successful and
sought after Australian artists working today. But she didn't go
to art school. She wasn't discovered by a gallery. In fact,
for a long time she wasn't even represented by a gallery,
and she certainly didn't follow any kind of traditional path. Instead,
(01:04):
she was a UNI dropout working retail who loved to draw.
She sold her wardrobe on eBay, she bought herself some
beautiful paper and pens and she started posting her drawings,
her hyper realistic drawings online, and then Kanye West bought
one of her pieces and that changed everything. CJ now
(01:28):
lives in Brooklyn with her husband, who's also an Aussie
and their three kids. She creates immersive art experiences that
attract crowds around the world, and she's built a global
business on her own terms without ever waiting for permission.
In this conversation, CJ and I talk about how she
(01:48):
got here, how she manages to create while raising a
young family and while staying agile and making up her
own rules. Is her secret source. She proves just that,
by the way, when on the spur of the moment
during our chat, CJ makes a major announcement that is
going to send fans into a frenzy.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
Here is CJ Hendry.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
Katherine Katherine, who calls you CJ Hendry my.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Mum sometimes but not. I don't know, no one really
calls me Katherine so much. I had a rebrand in
your five and I was I've been called since then, Yeah, Oh.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
Was it your idea or someone else's.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
I think it was mine because there was a girl
at school who was a bit of a bully and
she called me Kat and Kathy, and for some reason
I didn't like that. I was like, we've got a rebrand.
Let's rebrand to CJ. And it's kind of been like
that ever since.
Speaker 3 (02:46):
And the rebrand has actually been brilliant for you? Is
it because if you were, if you were Kath Hendry,
I don't think your aunt would be the same.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
No, it's giving too feminine, you know, so I think, yeah, CJ.
Could be.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
It's a little bit of a little bit of b
Like a lot of people who.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
Might not even know who am or what I do
still think I'm a boy and that's great.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
Why not?
Speaker 3 (03:08):
And it's like in the olden days when female writers
would take just a couple of initials at the start,
so people didn't know if they were male or female. Yeah,
Miles Franklin not initially got none the least women.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
It's just it just kind of it's just a happy accident,
you know, Like certainly wasn't planning to be in this
position or be an artist.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
Way back in year five.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
I was just a little girl who didn't like to
be called cat, you know, or cat.
Speaker 3 (03:38):
But so much of what you've done, by the way,
c J. Hendry, welcome to No Filter. Thank you for
having me, and we're very excited to have you. And
I there are tentacles coming out from me of people
that I know and that I love who are so
beside themselves about you, but in your art, which has
(04:00):
kind of really evolved quite rapidly. Really it feels sure,
does it feel rapid to you?
Speaker 1 (04:07):
The unfolding of you?
Speaker 2 (04:10):
No, it doesn't be a rap it at all. I think.
I guess I'm an artist. I'm an Instagram artist. I
do lots of different things. Now what started is just
drawing has now morphed into other things. But I think,
as with anything, you need to evolve and grow. If
I was still drawing in black and white on paper
and still doing that, that is not that it gets
(04:31):
very uninteresting very quickly, you know. So, I think in
the speed at which social media works and the speed
at which people's attentions last, you kind of have to
evolve and morph and do new shit. And so I'm
just kind of moving at the speed that it needs
to be at this point. But yeah, I'm part artist, past,
part business person, part whatever at this point.
Speaker 3 (04:53):
But you know how we were just saying CJ. Henry
turned out to be great for you. There seems to
be like fortune has favored the brave when it comes
to you, because when you decided to start putting your
stuff up, it was on Instagram pretty early. Instagram very early,
very like I couldn't even tell you when, but certainly
(05:15):
within the first year of it being open, yeah, yeah, right,
And before that you'd been studying, so you were in
this study cycle at qut.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
AQT did a bit of architecture. Wasn't very good at that.
Then I shifted over and enrolled in accounting and finance at.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
UQ even more useless. I know, I was truly useless.
You know how Like at UNI there's like an overall GPA.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
I think it's like one per seven, four as a
pass and a seven as you're really smart. My overall
GPO was a three point seventy five. So to give
you a sense of like where I was on the
past fail scandeight, my overall mark was a fail.
Speaker 3 (05:49):
So I just kind of lower in architecture or lower
in when you went into the finance.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
It was all just low.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
I can't exactly tell you a numbers, it was just
not It was around the past fail numbers, around four
or just below. For some reason, I just university just
never gelled for me. I can't quite make that work.
I was relatively good at school, and then when it
hit UNI. Maybe it was because I had I was
able to work and make my own money and do
(06:17):
my own thing. I was like, university is just a
hindrance in me being able to go and work at
a bar. You know, I love working. Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.
When you in that sort of cycle trying to be.
Speaker 3 (06:28):
A student, were you drawing? Mean, like, when did you
start drawing? Or have you always drawn?
Speaker 2 (06:36):
Loosely drawn? I wasn't wouldn't say I was exceptional. Like
I said, I was just a good student at school.
I think I did the amount of art that everyone
does at school. You have to do English, you have
to do science. Most people do are like you know,
So I was good, but not a standout, And I
think what I enjoyed more than anything. And then when
I was at UNI, you know, I was just doing UNI,
you know, UNI and working. But what it always stuck
(07:00):
with me with drawing. I wasn't even particularly good at that.
I was okay, but I'm not certainly where I'm at
now in terms of skill level. But what always stuck
with me with drawing, and still to this day, is
just how drawing made me feel. I'm not particularly woo woo,
but I just really enjoy being able to sit in
my own thought and it's almost like a form of meditation.
(07:20):
Just sit and draw, sure and just zone out, watch
some Netflix, have a podcast on, listen to audiobooks, you know,
and it's just as a lovely time just I could
spend hours on my own just drawing, and I was
just just I always felt very calm doing that.
Speaker 3 (07:35):
The moment when you decided, okay, UNI's not for you
and you're not for UNI, and you said to your parents,
hard working South Africans, you're absolutely right, yep, come to
Australia and you said, I'm going to take a year
off and I'm going to draw.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
That how was that conversation?
Speaker 2 (07:59):
It was as as you would expect. Mum and dad,
just to be clear, the most beautiful, supportive parents. They
are very hard working, so I think this was just
a bit of a rogue thing to do. You know.
They didn't say no, but they certainly weren't like, great,
how can we you know, let's step in and help.
I think they were just like, this is what you
(08:19):
need to do, go for it. I was still living
at home in the basement with mom and dad, so
fortunately they never kicked me out, so it couldn't have
gone that badly, right, certainly, so they were still happy
to have me at home, but it was it's just
a weird thing to say, I just want to draw.
And they knew I enjoyed drawing, they knew I was
okay at it. But I think Mum was just like, well, artists,
how are you going to support yourself? Like that just
(08:41):
doesn't work? And I said, I don't care. That's just
not my focus. I just want to draw because I
enjoy it. You know, UNI's not going particularly well working
at a bar, you know, like who gives a shit?
So then I kind of sold at that point in time,
I sold my whole wardrobe on eBay. This is when
eBay was really cool, and I saw my wardrobe and
either so I had a little bit of money so
I could buy all my materials.
Speaker 3 (09:02):
And yeah, because you'd also had a taste for luxury
goods before then, Yeah, so you had some high stuff.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
I had champagne taste and beer money. So I would
save up all my money and I would go and
buy fancy things. And where was I going Nowhere? But
I just like to have nice things, you know, like that.
You know, I wasn't out all the time. I just
just enjoyed nice shoes and bags and clothes for no
reason other than I just like to have it. And yeah,
i'd just work at a bar, save up all my
(09:33):
money from tips and whatever else, and I'd just go
buy beautiful things. And then that led to me getting
a job at Chanel, which was in Brisbane, which was amazing.
I learned so much from that. And this was just
me selling handbags. I wasn't doing anything particularly life threatening there.
Speaker 1 (09:49):
It's hard to get a job at Chanel, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
I mean I think so, But somehow I talked my
way in and they said yes, and I said, I said, great,
when did we start? So I spent a couple of
years there and learn a lot just about just luxury
and the selling of luxury. And in all honesty, the
brand sold itself so we didn't have to do a
whole b just had I just had to have chat
really and yeah, I had a grand all time there.
(10:14):
And that's when I was kind of doing Yuni. I'm
trying to piece it all together. Yeah, just I was
just like, I just don't think this is the direction
my life has meant to go. You know, Yuni is
not going well. I don't think I want to work
in retail forever. Let me just try my hand at drawing.
So yeah, that's when I kind of sold my wardrobe
and said, all right, I've got enough. I've got enough
(10:34):
leg room to kind of go through for the next
year and just draw. And that's what I did.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
You went and bought with your wardrobe money.
Speaker 3 (10:44):
You went and brought a whole lot of pencils and
paper stock instead draw.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
Yep, So I went and bought beautiful paper and pens.
I think the thing that I always wanted I didn't
want the quality of my materials to be not great.
I've always liked to do things as well as I can,
or close to perfect. Even from the start, I was like,
I just want this beautiful cotton paper. I want these
like Japanese pens. And also framing was really expensive. Framing
(11:11):
was certainly the more expensive part of this whole thing. Yeah,
and I was just going to draw. The plan was
to just do five drawings, put them in a folio
and take them to galleries around Brisbane and the hope
that they might be interested enough to sign me or
represent me or.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
Something like that.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
And then in the means, you know, I was like,
that might take a couple of months, let's let's work
toward that. And then in that time, that's when social
media was kind of happening. I think my sister was like, oh,
let's just take a photo and post it. I said, okay,
and then yeah, one thing led to another, and I mean,
it's all funny to talk about so like Instagram way
back then, but it isn't.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
It was funny back then, you know.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
You just kind of post and the goal was still, well,
I'm going to go to a gallery because that's what
you do as an artist. Never was I like I'm
going to be a hack on Instagram. I'm like, that
was not That was certainly not the plan, and it's
still not the plan. But I'm still here, I guess,
And also.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
Like, really, what is the plan?
Speaker 3 (12:07):
Because everything in retrospect seems like it's a plan, but
when you're doing it, it's often just instinct or what
you feel like doing.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
And I think it's still instincts, Like very rarely are
we working with like a hardcore plant with anything, you know,
like we'll be building exhibitions. I certainly know where I'm
at now and where I hope to be, you know,
I just like to create things and build exhibitions and
draw whatever that might look like, and just to create
things as often as I can and kind of create
(12:43):
alternate realities for people to experience, you know, and we're
just having a whole lot of fun doing it. The
team's amazing. I've worked with a beautiful team who helped
me execute these ideas.
Speaker 1 (12:52):
You know.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
Everyone works really really hard, harder than me, you know.
And yeah, it's just being able to build these super
creative things and put them into reality and for people
to come and experience them.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
Is the plan this? You know, Well, that's the execution
of the plan, I guess.
Speaker 3 (13:10):
But if you go back to that moment that must
have been it must have had some significance for you.
Was it the rim Williams boots that you were the
first thing you sold?
Speaker 2 (13:20):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (13:21):
That you might be exactly right, right? And how was
that moment that.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
Was game changing? Because they it wasn't an insignificant amo
amount of money. It was like ten thousand dollars, which
is insane. I was like, I even kind of cold around,
So I was like, are you sure? You know, because
I wasn't sure that they wanted it, And then that
it kind of gives you the confidence at that point
to say, gosh, this could be something. And I always
(13:47):
try to encourage people who are looking at ur you know,
or wanting to buy art. I'm like, always support artists
who are starting out. Don't buy my art, Heaven's sake,
who gives a shit about me? Go and support artists
who are just starting out because it can really change
the course of their whole life. And I know this
particular family who bought these rm will into boots like
truly changed my life because it was I was able
to use that money to continue to draw and get
(14:08):
things from and you know, not have to go and
get a job for another six months, because ten thousand
dollars goes such a long way, you know.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
So yeah, it's really important.
Speaker 3 (14:18):
Very unusual, I think for any emerging artist as you
were then, probably didn't even really define yourself maybe as
an artist then.
Speaker 2 (14:27):
No, just someone who liked to draw.
Speaker 3 (14:29):
Yeah, yeah, just for someone to sell their first work
for ten grand is quite incredible.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
It is. But I was looking at it quite logically.
I was like, well, it took me x amount of hours.
If I'm going on a twenty five dollars an hour rate,
that works out. It was probably like three hundred. Yeah,
that was more than.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
The shell rate.
Speaker 2 (14:52):
So I thought I might up a little bit. I thought,
look at me. Yes, I was like, twenty five seems fair.
And I was like, I think I rounded out to
like nine thousand and three. I was like, look rounded
up to ten. That's just my time, you know. And
they seem to like it. Yeah, but yeah, it was.
It did change the course of everything because I was
able to continue to draw. And then I think someone
(15:13):
else reached out and said I'd like to buy something
or commission something, and that's kind of how it.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
Started, you know.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
I I was able to make a little bit of money.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
Yeah, so that was like twenty fourteen. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (15:24):
Had you met Lewis then? Who is now your husband?
So we started officially dating on eleven, twelve thirteen, so yes,
I had yeah. Yeah, So we met just as I
was like loosely starting to draw. He was studying engineering
at UQ. He's very smart. He got his degree.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
I didn't. Yeah, so I think we've just started dating.
Gpa what was his GPM? It's high, you say, he
always downplaying and I was very high. Yeah. Yeah, And
then how did you two meet?
Speaker 2 (15:57):
We met at the Strategy Day races playing Spin the Bottle. Yeah,
just I was out and he was out and someone
dad spit the battle with an after party, and then
I got back's house. Literally, I could tell you exactly
where it was. Yeah, it was so funny. And then
that's kind of happened, and then we just loosely started
(16:19):
hanging out, and yeah, I think he wanted Yeah, do you.
Speaker 3 (16:24):
Think people know all know spin the bottle, which is
an old It's Australian, isn't it.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
It's an Australian Spin the bottle in the.
Speaker 3 (16:33):
Bottle and then when the bottle, both ends of the
bottle points to two people obviously, and then those people
have to kiss.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
That's exactly how it happened. And then here we are. Yeah,
but at that point he was your boyfriend.
Speaker 3 (16:47):
You like drawing, You're selling a couple of things.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
He's going to be an engineer.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
Yeah, he was. He wanted to go somewhere else to work,
and he was toying up between Hong Kong and New York,
and he landed on New York and I was like,
you know what, I'd like to come because I want
to continue, you know, like the art was kind of happening.
I must say, this time I had signed, I'd started
to talk to Bill Tikos, who ran The Cool Hunter.
(17:15):
He was a very instrumental person in developing and growing
my career in the early days. I don't think i'd
be here certainly without him. I could definitely give credit
to a lot of people throughout the years, but he
was instrumental in those early days. He was so confident
and so brazen about selling art. He's like, who gives
a shit that you're sell on Instagram, Let's just go
(17:35):
for it. And I was like, oh, heavens, you know.
So he took care of the sale side of things,
and yeah, heavens, he took care of the sale side
of things, and then I was just able to draw.
So it was a beautiful relationship for many years. And
yeah that it just allowed me to just draw every
day and he handled everything else, which was great.
Speaker 1 (17:53):
So it was around that time that I signed with him.
Speaker 3 (17:56):
But you're also obviously, I mean, I think it's a
hallmark of kind of the way he lives that you're like, well,
I'm going into this area where there are no rules,
so I'm just gonna follow my nose.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
That's a great point, kay, because art, in my opinions
still to this day, is the last unregulated industry. Finance was,
now it's not, and art is completely unregulated. There's no rules,
there's no right or wrongs. It's subjective. People love it,
people hate it. Why is something valued at ten million dollars?
(18:32):
Why is something? Like? Why is something valued at ten dollars?
You know? Like it's why? Like it's so arbitrary, And
that's what I find really fascinating. It's all perceived value.
It's it's storytelling, it's everything. It's commerce and creative mixed
up in one. And it's a beautiful it can be
a beautiful combination. I mean, if you're a commercial artist
like I am, if you're just somebody wants to make
(18:54):
you know art and sell it on Etsy, Yeah, that's
a different type of artist, but it's still an artist.
You know. Just because you're making money doesn't mean you're
any better. Certainly doesn't mean you're any better than someone
making art, you know.
Speaker 3 (19:06):
But it's I find it interesting that you say it's
unregulated because you've kind of made it unregulated, because I
think before you it wasn't it was so or maybe
that's my perception from the outside that it's got a
very elitist overtone, and a lot.
Speaker 1 (19:24):
Of it has to be what does this work mean?
Speaker 3 (19:28):
And normal people are staring at things like boggle eyed
and it kind of made to feel a bit lesser
if they don't understand the motivation of the artist.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
Now, you changed a lot of that.
Speaker 3 (19:41):
Through just doing your art and letting people appreciate it
for what it was.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
Okay, that's very kind of you to say, and I
guess there is an element of that. But by no
means was I going out there to be like, look
at me, I'm going to change some shit. No, I
was just making my art and one thing led to another.
Series of unfortunate events have led me here. But no, was.
It just is what it is. And I think to
(20:10):
your point of art being very elitist, it is still
at the very highest level. It is still. But what
is happening which is really interesting at the very highest
levels from I'm talking two hundred thousand and above into
the millions, art's not moving like they're not moving the
amount of infantry that they once did, because those those
(20:31):
were a different subset of people. You know, like much
you know boomers, now, who are you know, looking to,
you know, slow down their spending or whatever it might be.
And now there's a whole lot of younger kid who
are coming in with either their parents' money or their
own money, self made, who are not interested in buying
Pocassa's for ten million. They're like, that's not very interesting.
(20:52):
I can't meet Pokassa. He's a dead guy, you know.
So I think they are looking to kind of invest
in artists who are slightly younger, who are highly contemporary artists.
And I'm not just talking about myself. There's a whole
lot of people, you know, my peers, who are doing
it as well. I'm certainly not the only one. And
there's everyone's doing a great job. And we're young. We're
(21:14):
like moving at a rapid rate, and it's interesting to watch,
you know. And I think people enjoy that. I mean,
I certainly enjoy it. You know, not everyone loves it.
I'm not looking for worldwide acceptance, but yeah, we're kind
of slowly just taking down the elitist nature of it.
Speaker 3 (21:30):
It's like democratized art and throwing the doors open.
Speaker 2 (21:36):
Yeah, and I think I certainly will build exhibitions and
there's no basis on a wall when you enter. You know,
there's often big, big things you have to read about
what someone's feeling with convoluted words that even I don't know,
and I'm not very I wouldn't even know how to
put that together. I'd have to use AI to write it.
And that just is no interest to me, because then
(21:56):
you're forcing people to feel a certain way when they
walk in. I just want people to walk in with
any age, any background, and you just walk in. You
might love it, you might hate it, but you're going
to feel something when you walk in because you have
to experience. I think whatever that might be. It might
be a bounce house, it might be this big inflatable
climbing things. It might be a church with pedals in London. Like,
(22:17):
there's so many different things we've done over the years,
and they're all different, they're all a bit outlandish, and
people are certainly going to feel something, you know, but
I don't expect you to feel what I feel.
Speaker 3 (22:32):
Coming up after this short breather, CJ explains how she
and her art got discovered by some pretty major power players.
When she followed Lewis to New York.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
He had no say in it.
Speaker 3 (22:50):
I'm curious about the moment when you said to Lewis,
I'm going to come to New York with you? Do
you want me to come to New York with you?
Or was that alike I'm coming to moment?
Speaker 1 (23:06):
Oh where you.
Speaker 2 (23:07):
Were at It was definitely I'm coming to please can
I come? And like, I know, I was like, look,
we're only freshly dating, but like, just let's not plan
too far ahead. I'm a big believer and don't plan
too far ahead because life happens and then your plan
has to change. And if you're too focused on, you know,
on your exact plan, then you're not going to see
(23:27):
the opportunity that they present itself. So I said, look,
we're just dating. Let's just go. If it doesn't work out,
it doesn't work out, let's you know, but let's just
go as just a little, you know, just lovers. Let's
go as lovers. We went as lovers. We rented an
apartment together. He started his business. I was doing my thing,
you know, we just I've always been kind of doing
(23:48):
our own thing, which has been great. And then one
thing led to another. We couldn't afford our apartment anymore.
In Tribeca because I was working from home there drawing
and he would go to work and we couldn't we
needed more space. We couldn't afford to be in Manhattan,
so we got pushed out to Brooklyn to Greenpoint, where
we rented a big warehouse we could afford. And we've
(24:08):
been a green Point ever since. And now green Point's
really cool, but it wasn't cool way back then. It
was a bit shit. And then we've been to Brooklyn
ever since. And we got married. We took our families
to lunch and we just eloped to the Brisbane City Hall.
And then we've got three kids are a four or
three and a six months old.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
So it's been busy. It's been a busy couple of years.
And you seem pretty happy.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
Happy happy as a happy is a sliding scale. I
think there's some days that make me happier than others,
but I think over the course of many years, I'm
like just trying to just coast along. There's always stress
and pressure, whether it be financially. Kids are a whole
different level of stress.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
As you know.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
Any parent can attest to, you know, and any parent
who's working and also has kids, you know, even if
you don't have kids. Just life is stressful in different ways.
So I always try to look on the more optimistic
side because nothing's going to go according to plan. You're
never going to be skinny enough or rich enough, so
I may as well just get into it. He must
like you and I like him. It's a two way street. Yeah,
(25:14):
it's a two way street. Well, I'm very lucky. I
think we're a good little We're just good mates, you know,
like we have a laugh, we don't take anything too seriously. Yeah,
he's he's a good two busy Bogans. You know, it
was meant to be.
Speaker 3 (25:27):
To work at your level, you need to outsource part
of the child.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
All of that. At what point do you and Lewis
go are we?
Speaker 3 (25:39):
How do we find that balance of how much you
outsource with three little kids.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
I'll speak for myself, but I know just talking to
my other mum friends, it's always going to be the
biggest sense of guilt and not knowing what the right
answer is. I mean, you've got four kids. I'm sure
there were most, you know, Like, it's just I'm fortunate
that when I've had my babies, my mum's come over
from Oz to help out. So for the first four months,
she'll be there five months helping out. She's coming over
(26:08):
again for the so my holidays to look after the
big kids. We're fortunate enough to have a nanny who
helps with the baby while we're at work. It's just
a it's a trade off, you know what I mean.
I know on a Saturday and Sunday, I'm fucking miserable.
Lewis and I are about to divorce each other on a
Sunday afternoon when we've had the kids for two days.
So I'm like, well, that's not that's not that's not
(26:28):
the answer. Full time mumming for me is not the answer.
But what we've found is a beautiful balance of going
to work and I pick up Kenny from daycare at
three thirty, so my in the studio times from nine
till about three. And would I like to work a
little bit more, yes, but this is just the time
in our lives, you know. And no, I'm not with
(26:49):
the kids all day, but I love going to work.
It's kind of great because then from you know, like
three thirty till when they go down to bed, which
is never early enough. Yeah, we're just smucking around and
having great time. So but I don't think we've got
the right formul I don't think any parents got the
right format. Everyone's just piecing it together, honestly, and summer
week we're not. We haven't got a better formula than
anyone else. It's fucking hard, and it's fucking childcare is
(27:10):
fucking expensive.
Speaker 3 (27:12):
What was your first significant project that came about once
you'd moved to New York, Because this all seemed to
happen quite rapidly from you leaving Australia.
Speaker 2 (27:24):
It did once again, I was working with the cool
hunter so Bill Tikos. We did an exhibition in Soho
called the Trophy Room, and then that was the one
I did with him. After that exhibition, I kind of
branched out and started to do my own thing. So
I can't even tell you the dates. I could have
been twenty sixteen, twenty seventeen. From there, I kind of
(27:46):
was free falling a little bit because I had always
done my own I had always just done the drawings
and Bell took care of, you know, like looking after
everything else. I then was like, holy shit, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck,
what do I do? I need to do this on
my own now and so yeah, kind of I'm trying
to think how that played out. I think when you're
thrown into the deep and you just kind of figure
(28:08):
it out. That's where Lewis really helped step in. I
was like, I don't know how to do that stuff.
Please help. He's like, we'll figure it out. And so
we then learned how to sell things. That's when we
just started like a Shopify account and we'd sell art
just on Shopify like what you know, like these meant
for like you're meant to sell undias and t shirts
like you know, you're not meant to sell tens of thousands,
(28:31):
you know, and so we're like, well, how else do
we sell it? So that's kind of yeah, we had
an exhibition like let's just start a Shopify account. And
that's how it's always been, you know, like it's not
super complicated.
Speaker 3 (28:42):
And so once again a maverick outside of the gallery
system because galleries, when they get hold of artists, I
mean they can also of course do amazing things for
artists yep, and bring their art to a lot of people,
but they also take a giant chunk of change often
that artists can't afford to be hated.
Speaker 2 (29:05):
Well, I think it depends on the type of artist
you are, right, So I'm very realist in the fact,
like I am a commercial artist. I am fortunate to
make money from I reinvest almost all of it back
into my practice. So that's kind of how I see it,
Like it's it is a business. I run it like
a startup. That's a speed at which we work, you know.
So yeah, but there's some artists who just have no
(29:27):
interest in that. They're like, I just know how to create.
I don't want to schmooz and wheel and deal. I
don't want to do all that stuff. So for them,
the gallery will really work well. So it just really
you just got to figure out what's going to work
best for you.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
And for you, Shopify was Shopify. What's not worked for you?
Speaker 2 (29:44):
Yeah, Shopify was there, And also Lewis was like, hey,
just shop Pilet's go. I'm like all right, you know,
so I was fortunate that he was more techy than
I am. I'm, you know, still just more creative. He's
more logical. Yeah, so that's kind of how I started.
And yeah, but galeries certainly have their place. I can't
discount them. I'll be working with a gallery next year
(30:06):
on an exhibition. But it's it's a it's a megaga,
you know what I mean, Like these are galleries that
are just mega that it's not a quote unquote normal gallery.
You know. So this is like the big it's the
big leagues, you know. It's just there's so many different
ways to be an artist, just just it doesn't look
the same for everyone.
Speaker 3 (30:27):
But speaking of big leagues, then a couple of seminal
things happened, and one of the us was Kanye and
it was him on a on a dollar bill, on
a dollar bill with his face. I just want to
purpose this by saying this one Kanye was at as
prime ten years ago.
Speaker 1 (30:43):
This is not the current Kanye. This is not Kanne
ten years ago.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
And Kanye was back then just truly like he was
an inspiration for me as a creative, and he was
an inspiration to a lot of people. So I just
need to say that because he really was quite something.
Speaker 3 (30:59):
When people look through the prism of the present at
the past, it looks very differently, it does, doesn't.
Speaker 1 (31:05):
It was, Yeah, he was revolutionary. He was such a broad.
Speaker 2 (31:09):
Artist, he was and he was just so creative and
so bold and I took a lot of inspiration from him,
and you know, it just so much of what he
did was so different and it was just.
Speaker 1 (31:21):
Beautiful to watch.
Speaker 2 (31:22):
Yeah, and I put him on a dollar bill and
for somehow he's found out about it and I was
able to you know, he bought it from me way
back then.
Speaker 3 (31:34):
And yeah, you know, but how does Kanye Wete buy
my something from C J Henry?
Speaker 1 (31:41):
Do you know what it was?
Speaker 2 (31:43):
There was a I couldn't remember all the names. It
was Kim, so Kim and Kanye like they just had
now anyway I could go into the hole inner work.
Speaker 1 (31:53):
It was.
Speaker 2 (31:53):
It was through social media. It was through social media.
It was someone who was working with Kim. We still
chat whether they still work together or not. I think
she's the CFO or CEO of Skims. She was also
working closely with Kanye. And one thing, you know, she
was a fan of Cool Hunter. She found out about
it that way and then kind of showed it to him,
and I think that's how it happened. Yeah, but the
(32:16):
Internet you never really know, you never really know how
should happened. It's a beautiful place and nothing's linear. There's
no like clean lines as to how people know, we'll
find out or hear about things anymore, you know.
Speaker 3 (32:27):
But even so, there was a face to face when
you hand it over the artwork.
Speaker 2 (32:33):
Yes, and he was shorter than I thought, and he
was so kind and he gave me. He was very intentional.
He was very softly spoken. And this was five minutes
before he was about to go out and perform. And
it was like he had his little possy there where
did you do the transaction? This is in the Brisbane
(32:56):
I don't know where were you performed in Brisbane?
Speaker 3 (32:58):
Like the yeah about Bood, Yeah, the entertainment center.
Speaker 2 (33:05):
Yeah, it was you know. So then he had his
posse there with there was like five other guys in
the room and Kanye and there was like snacks.
Speaker 1 (33:12):
He's like, do you want a snack?
Speaker 2 (33:13):
I was like, I don't remember exactly that what I said,
but yeah, it was just like I was just so.
Speaker 1 (33:19):
Sort of snacks? Does Kanye wears? I can't remember yet.
Speaker 2 (33:23):
And I remember there being orange juice and water, I
remember that, I remember. Yeah, And then I was sitting
in the while I sitting in the corridor waiting to go,
and Kim walked past.
Speaker 1 (33:33):
I was like, I just waited so casual. I was like, wow, yeah,
so but that was years ago.
Speaker 2 (33:37):
But I'll be honest, I'm not I'm not a celebrity hunter,
nor does that interest me, nor is that a big
deal to me.
Speaker 1 (33:45):
It's just a thing that happened.
Speaker 2 (33:47):
And you know, like there's so many other people who
have bought my art that it's just not that interesting
to talk about.
Speaker 1 (33:55):
You know, Like, however, you know what it is.
Speaker 3 (33:58):
It's this validation because he was an artist and he
was a collector of great art.
Speaker 2 (34:05):
Yeah, this was at the beginning of my career, and
I think there was an l and of this is
where Bill was so great. He was such a brilliant marketer,
and he was like, this is just great publicity. We
have to get that, like people need to know about this.
And I think that was really smart from his end.
I wouldn't have done anything about it, but you know,
he was able to kind of I think place that
(34:26):
in particular, press things that that happened, and so that's
kind of how it all played up.
Speaker 3 (34:31):
It's one thing to say you don't need or require
the external validation, and in fact, probably to do anything
that anyone does, you have to have the most important
vision that you have is your own. Yeah, but nonetheless
it's so nice to have that validation.
Speaker 2 (34:48):
Yeah, especially so early on, you know, when you are
double second guessing yourself and you're not too sure, and
just for someone of that caliber to have a piece
was really special, you know. So yeah, it's certainly catapult
and certainly changed a few things. But I don't know
there's something that happened. But I mean, at the end
(35:08):
of the day, the cele ready buys your art. You
haven't made it, you know, like by no means was
like cool, I'm done here and get concent like, you know,
you're still got to do the work. So it's like
whilst good things happen, and if any good things happened,
I don't spend much time like walling around thinking about it,
like you're still going to go to work the next day.
Speaker 1 (35:28):
Interesting, you know.
Speaker 3 (35:29):
I also I think you seem like that when bad
things happen as well, Yeah, because I'm thinking about the
bad things of like the copyright infringing, yeah, and that
whole series, and.
Speaker 2 (35:40):
You know, yeah, so copyright infringe it was another really
interesting thing that happened. I had done drawings of Andy
Warhol's poloids and I'd crumpled them up and draw on
them and put them on T shirts. And we were
going to do a release online of the T shirts
on our little dinky shopper by account and a couple
I think an hour before the release, we got an
email from the Warhole Foundation saying, hey, you can't do this,
(36:03):
We'll sue you or whatever. You know, a bit of
a season desistent at that time, I'd never had anything.
I was like panicking white, a little bit panicky. I
was like, holy shit, hold of shit, we have to
pull it now. I would have gone ahead with the
relies and not even cared, but back then I'm like,
oh shit. So we didn't do the release, and then
we had all these T shirts and I was like,
I don't want to throw them away.
Speaker 1 (36:23):
But part of.
Speaker 2 (36:23):
The seasoned list was like you have to destroy the inventory.
I was like, well, can't we just like dispose of
them in a more creative way. So we boxed them
up and read boxes and dropped them around the city
and posted the locations on social media. I'm like, well,
they're going to end up in New York City trash
because like, they don't fuck around the trash in New York,
like they'll just pick it up and keep going. But yeah,
(36:44):
and then it turned into this thing, you.
Speaker 3 (36:45):
Know, yes, a brilliant a brilliant thing, like a worldwide
scavenger hunt.
Speaker 2 (36:53):
But like that, to me, we weren't going out to
do that. It was just like, how do you just
do something? I think I'm relatively creative and relatively bullish,
so you know, if you put those two things together,
I have little to no issue. You know. Yes, I
was nervous about the lawsuit, but I was like, let's
just dispose of them in a fun way. Like there
(37:14):
was no rule saying you can't be creative with disposal.
So I was like, Paul, no, let's do that.
Speaker 1 (37:23):
That's not all to our chat.
Speaker 3 (37:25):
Coming up, I get to surprise Cej with a story
about a young fan of hers and it inspires her
to make a very special announcement that you are not
going to want to miss. I'm going to share something
with you now, Okay, A bit of feedback from a
(37:46):
girlfriend of mine, one of her really good friends. And
so we were living in Italy in twenty nineteen, and
I remember back here in Australia, friends of ours were
saying that you were there.
Speaker 1 (37:58):
It must have been like September or whatever.
Speaker 3 (38:00):
You were here and you're going to do the copyright
infringement and it was a frenzy amongst the people that
knew frenzy. So this is a message from Tiff dam
her name is. She said, Hi, Kate, so excited for
your no Filter with CJ. Hendry The Girls. She's got
two daughters, the Girls, and I have been following her
(38:21):
art for years. Back in September twenty nineteen school holidays,
she came to Melbourne to do the copyright infringement scavenger hunt.
Seemed like a good way to fill up a day
in the holidays, so got the kids all excited and
mapped out our game plan. Frankie eleven at the time.
(38:41):
She decided to choose an iconic venue and wait, rather
than chase clues. Very clever give out clues to where
things were going to be. Mcg was decided and she
found a spot she thought might be it. Two hours later,
Frankie screamed, Mum, she's here. Some other guy beat us
(39:06):
to the box. So they were both running full pelt
for the red box for what happened, But get a
load of this, Yeah, he saw that Frankie was heartbroken,
and he split the box with us.
Speaker 2 (39:22):
Oh a true icon, A true icon.
Speaker 3 (39:26):
Frankie's had it framed in her room until yesterday when
we dropped it at a framers to be professionally mounted.
Thank you, CJ for one of the best memories and
for inspiring my girls to draw. That's tiff dam Oh
my god, Kate, can we share numbers?
Speaker 1 (39:42):
The beautiful guy, I don't even know what his name is.
Speaker 2 (39:45):
I'll track him down. Don't worry, we'll track him down.
Oh that's divine what.
Speaker 1 (39:49):
You did, now, you know.
Speaker 3 (39:52):
I mean, people can say art has a meaning or
art doesn't have a meaning. You know, I know that
your stuff has maybe been trivialized in the past, your
God forbid. But what you've what you actually did there
was so extraordinary that you made the power of you
(40:15):
brought them together. And the guy shared with a little
girl the ultimate price.
Speaker 2 (40:23):
What a delicious man. Oh my god. And look at
that delicious little god that is she's sharing that story, Kate.
That's really lovely. That like makes each here up. That's
so I know, that's so special because it's like I'm
just here drawing, just doing the thing, and I don't
think like when we're making or building a concept, like
I'm in all honesty not thinking of what people are
(40:47):
going to experience, because that's not my job, you know,
like you know what people think about me or my
art is not my business. We just build it and
then they come and then they experience it how everyone's
going to experience it in their own way. And I
think that's really special. And what we were talked about
earlier is making art accessible. I think what's brought me
more joy than anything is not selling expensive art, like
(41:08):
that's that's something that happened, but it's building exhibitions is
always a free component, very like most of the time
the exhibitions are free. If they're not free, they're like
a five dollar entry or something as accessible as possible.
And like being able to build something big and then
allow people who you know, they might not be a
(41:28):
position to buy art just to be a part of it,
Like that's really special because, like you said, I always
feel really uncomfortable going into galleries. I feel looked down
upon and I'm like, oh shit, they know that we're
not rich. It's the same walking into luxury brands. And
I think in my early days of working at Chanelle,
I really went out of my way to just make everyone.
I know they weren't coming into buy ten thousand dollar handbag,
(41:50):
but just give them a great experience, because like, who
am I? I'm like, I'm owning less money than you,
so like, come on in, let's try a handbag on.
Speaker 3 (41:58):
You know.
Speaker 2 (41:58):
So it's so the same thing goes with art. You
can do big things and you don't need to be
nasty about it.
Speaker 1 (42:06):
That's so true.
Speaker 2 (42:08):
I feel very uncomfortable with the high end art world.
I don't like how it is. It's always going to
be that way. It's that way for a reason, but
I just I've always felt uncomfortable by it, and I've
always been made to feel small and uncomfortable. I'm like,
why why do you need to feel uncomfortable around art?
Speaker 1 (42:24):
Like that's not how it's meant to be. What do
you think that's based on?
Speaker 3 (42:28):
Do you think that's as it's defending.
Speaker 1 (42:32):
The fortress of power? I think it's an old school mentality.
Speaker 2 (42:36):
To sell expensive things, you have to.
Speaker 3 (42:38):
Be rude and not rude, but you know, like you
know that luxury the best examples when you walk into
expensive stores it's like they're floating at They're not particularly
happy or friendly.
Speaker 2 (42:48):
You're like, why I think it's changing, Kate. I think
things are changing. I think the age like people are
not in You don't need to make the experience uncomfortable
to sell things at a higher price point, Like it
can be a beautiful, friendly experience, you know, like that's
what we're learning. It can be accessible. Like my brand
has things that are low, medium, high, you know, not
(43:11):
everyone's coming in for the higher stuff. I certainly wouldn't
buy my expensive art. It's way too expensive, you know,
thanks to everyone who does. But yeah, I'm a terrible investment.
Speaker 3 (43:21):
But now you must have noticed, well I'm assuming that
this has happened, is that you were kind of outside
the mainstream art world for a long time. Now the
mainstream art world is coming to you.
Speaker 2 (43:38):
Do you know why? I think it is art follows
money and it's a really gross it's really gross. But
there's only so long that the like the bigger, higher
end art world. I just this is just the way
things are moving. And like I said before, like works
above two hundred thousand, above a million are not moving
at the volume that they once did, and the people
(44:01):
and gallerists are interested in this different group of people
who are buying art. They don't need to be interested
in warholes. They might be interested in other artists that
they've found on Etsy, your Instagram or whatever that might be.
You know, it's changing shift.
Speaker 1 (44:16):
They're like, we can share ten thousand such flowers. Yeah,
of your guards exactly.
Speaker 2 (44:22):
So it's like, you know, things are changing and the
market's changing, and being accessible and friendly is a good thing,
you know, Like it's not about being unattainable and awkward.
Speaker 1 (44:33):
That's just not relevant anymore.
Speaker 3 (44:36):
But I do think there's a certain purity to what
you do very kind, Yeah, I just do, or a
certain integrity or whatever. And I think maybe just because
it sort of comes so from yourself, I'm curious about
how then when you get these other attendant you know,
(44:58):
when you're offered all the bounty of the world and
the accolades and the knighthood of revered artists, Like, how.
Speaker 1 (45:06):
Do you keep your channel clear?
Speaker 2 (45:09):
I think that's so funny that even comes up. It's
just the channel clear is like if you get complacent
and you think you've made it, that's like the end.
Speaker 1 (45:18):
That's the end. Wrap up shop, you.
Speaker 2 (45:21):
Know what I mean. It's like we've still there's so
much to do, Like there's so much to do, We're
so busy doing stuff, like not for a second are
we sitting down or am I sitting down to say joh,
jolly good job?
Speaker 1 (45:32):
Like it kiss a shit, shut the fuck up, like
keep get to work, like why are you late?
Speaker 2 (45:38):
You know what I mean? Like that's so it's just
I find that a really useless way to think and be.
And you would have seen it a million times everyone has.
It's like people get an inch of notoriety and then
they take a step back.
Speaker 1 (45:51):
And then they gone, You're like where was where was
that person?
Speaker 2 (45:54):
You know? And it's like, well, because they got lazy,
they've got complacent. You know. I'm a worker. I love working.
Work brings me so much joy being busy doing something.
It doesn't even need to be particularly aggressible, being just pottering.
I love always doing something, doing a craft, Like you know,
we're always doing something in that studio.
Speaker 3 (46:16):
I want you to do even though it doesn't matter
what I want you to do, but I just love
you to keep.
Speaker 1 (46:22):
Doing what you're doing.
Speaker 3 (46:23):
I hope so if one day you decide again to
do another copyright infringement.
Speaker 1 (46:27):
Oh we might bring it back. Gosh, you'd make people
let's do it? Why what would you? Yeah, because you've
asked so nicely, why.
Speaker 2 (46:35):
Don't I just say, because you've asked, just with your
best ask, why don't I just say, yeah, fuck it,
will do it next year?
Speaker 1 (46:43):
How about that?
Speaker 3 (46:44):
And you can hold me to it for astrata and
then anyone this podcast said, but you said, and then
you can hold me to it.
Speaker 1 (46:51):
Why not let's do it? Yes, yeah, that sounds like
that's right. And then I'll be like, she's not taking
my course? Why not?
Speaker 2 (46:58):
Like that's what I mean, Like we don't plan to
for a head, I'm like, fuck it. Give the people
what they want. If they want a copyright infringement. Copyright
infringement is what they'll get.
Speaker 1 (47:06):
Why not infringe your way, baby, CJ.
Speaker 3 (47:10):
What I am curious about is and because your technique
of your hyperrealism of making things look it's almost magical
that you look at something go but surely that's liquid
and it's not it's flat on paper. I know people
like to say your art is amazing, that it is,
(47:32):
but how do you feel about AI? Because you know
somewhere someone's loaded all your art works up and there's
there's some robots somewhere going I can see J Hendry like,
so I use.
Speaker 2 (47:46):
AI to help come up with you know, mood boards
or concepts and things like that. I think AI is
a beautiful tool to use, and if people want to
make fake CJ. Hendries and sign them, go for it,
Like it doesn't bother me. Certainly doesn't bother me in
the slightest. I think AI what AI can't do. AI
(48:06):
can't build your building. AI can't make, you know, make
it a real drawing on the piece, but they can
do a print out. They can do a rendering of
what wasn't original, you know what I mean. So it's
like it's like people can make fake Oma's handbags, but
it's still not the real one.
Speaker 1 (48:24):
So it's like, if.
Speaker 2 (48:25):
People want to just do an AIC Jane Framant, I'm like,
go for it, Like it's just doesn't bother me, you know,
and I asked it just a beautiful tool. But I
think building things in reality is now more interesting than ever,
you know, like not just the drawing side, but when
we're building bigger exhibitions and concepts, Like sometimes people look
at the photos that are like, oh my god, Like I
think last year we built a swimming pool in the desert,
(48:48):
which was a fucking clusterfug but it looks like AI
like because it's like that swimming pool is not meant
to be in the middle of nowhere. So we're kind
of my whole prep pre Like, my premise for building
these exhibitions is kind of building these artificial realities so
people can walk through them and experience them in real life.
So that's really important to me. So, yeah, you can
(49:09):
build something online all day long, but we were just
talking about before, like shopping in a shopping center. It's
like you can shop online, but doing things with people
and going to an exhibition is so important, you know.
And yeah, you could buy my ard online, but going
and experiencing it it's a different thing.
Speaker 1 (49:27):
I must say.
Speaker 3 (49:28):
There would be a delicious irony if you had to
sue AI for copyright infringement.
Speaker 2 (49:34):
Yeah, but I never would n Oh my god, Kate,
You've given me an idea. What are I like, do
a cj AI and then I rip it all.
Speaker 1 (49:46):
I don't know there's something in there that copyright Next
year Infinity Mirrors.
Speaker 2 (49:52):
Yeah, there we go so that there's something in that.
So I don't know, or maybe I'll just oh, here's one.
This will be really easy for me. I'll just do
AI cjs and try and flog them as originals and
see if anyone can tell the difference.
Speaker 1 (50:06):
There you go, there go, and then I'll buy one
and I'll I don't know.
Speaker 2 (50:16):
I just think, Kate, like, this is the world, this
is where we live, and you just work with it.
Like people, you can fight against stuff while you're wasting
your energy.
Speaker 1 (50:25):
You know, it's not like what we're going to shut.
Speaker 2 (50:27):
Down AI, noing on.
Speaker 1 (50:28):
It's a beautiful thing. Just use it, embrace it and
get on with it. That was CJ.
Speaker 3 (50:37):
Hendry, an utter Australian delight, as delightful as the Lamington,
no fuss, no ego, just head down, bum up, making
extraordinary things happen, and somehow kind of making them feel easy.
What struck me most about CJ is in a world,
(50:58):
the art world, that can be so intimidating or exclusive,
it's her refusal to play by anyone else's rules. She's
not trying to be accepted by the art world because
she's too busy building her own. The executive producer of
No Filter is Nama Brown. The senior producer is bre Player.
(51:19):
Sound design and editing by Jacob Brown and I am
your host, Kate lane Brook.
Speaker 1 (51:25):
Thank you so much for sharing
You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast. Mama Maya acknowledges
the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast
is recorded on.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
I think an hour before the release, we've got an
email from the warholl Foundation saying, Hey, you can't do this,
We'll sue you or whatever. A bit of a season
to syst oh at White a little bit panicky. I
was like, holish, a lot of shit.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
We have to pull it. Hi, I'm Kate Lane brook
Welcome to No Filter.
Speaker 3 (00:42):
C J. Hendry is one of the most successful and
sought after Australian artists working today. But she didn't go
to art school. She wasn't discovered by a gallery. In fact,
for a long time she wasn't even represented by a gallery,
and she certainly didn't follow any kind of traditional path. Instead,
(01:04):
she was a UNI dropout working retail who loved to draw.
She sold her wardrobe on eBay, she bought herself some
beautiful paper and pens and she started posting her drawings,
her hyper realistic drawings online, and then Kanye West bought
one of her pieces and that changed everything. CJ now
(01:28):
lives in Brooklyn with her husband, who's also an Aussie
and their three kids. She creates immersive art experiences that
attract crowds around the world, and she's built a global
business on her own terms without ever waiting for permission.
In this conversation, CJ and I talk about how she
(01:48):
got here, how she manages to create while raising a
young family and while staying agile and making up her
own rules. Is her secret source. She proves just that,
by the way, when on the spur of the moment
during our chat, CJ makes a major announcement that is
going to send fans into a frenzy.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
Here is CJ Hendry.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
Katherine Katherine, who calls you CJ Hendry my.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Mum sometimes but not. I don't know, no one really
calls me Katherine so much. I had a rebrand in
your five and I was I've been called since then, Yeah, Oh.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
Was it your idea or someone else's.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
I think it was mine because there was a girl
at school who was a bit of a bully and
she called me Kat and Kathy, and for some reason
I didn't like that. I was like, we've got a rebrand.
Let's rebrand to CJ. And it's kind of been like
that ever since.
Speaker 3 (02:46):
And the rebrand has actually been brilliant for you? Is
it because if you were, if you were Kath Hendry,
I don't think your aunt would be the same.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
No, it's giving too feminine, you know, so I think, yeah, CJ.
Could be.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
It's a little bit of a little bit of b
Like a lot of people who.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
Might not even know who am or what I do
still think I'm a boy and that's great.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
Why not?
Speaker 3 (03:08):
And it's like in the olden days when female writers
would take just a couple of initials at the start,
so people didn't know if they were male or female. Yeah,
Miles Franklin not initially got none the least women.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
It's just it just kind of it's just a happy accident,
you know, Like certainly wasn't planning to be in this
position or be an artist.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
Way back in year five.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
I was just a little girl who didn't like to
be called cat, you know, or cat.
Speaker 3 (03:38):
But so much of what you've done, by the way,
c J. Hendry, welcome to No Filter. Thank you for
having me, and we're very excited to have you. And
I there are tentacles coming out from me of people
that I know and that I love who are so
beside themselves about you, but in your art, which has
(04:00):
kind of really evolved quite rapidly. Really it feels sure,
does it feel rapid to you?
Speaker 1 (04:07):
The unfolding of you?
Speaker 2 (04:10):
No, it doesn't be a rap it at all. I think.
I guess I'm an artist. I'm an Instagram artist. I
do lots of different things. Now what started is just
drawing has now morphed into other things. But I think,
as with anything, you need to evolve and grow. If
I was still drawing in black and white on paper
and still doing that, that is not that it gets
(04:31):
very uninteresting very quickly, you know. So, I think in
the speed at which social media works and the speed
at which people's attentions last, you kind of have to
evolve and morph and do new shit. And so I'm
just kind of moving at the speed that it needs
to be at this point. But yeah, I'm part artist, past,
part business person, part whatever at this point.
Speaker 3 (04:53):
But you know how we were just saying CJ. Henry
turned out to be great for you. There seems to
be like fortune has favored the brave when it comes
to you, because when you decided to start putting your
stuff up, it was on Instagram pretty early. Instagram very early,
very like I couldn't even tell you when, but certainly
(05:15):
within the first year of it being open, yeah, yeah, right,
And before that you'd been studying, so you were in
this study cycle at qut.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
AQT did a bit of architecture. Wasn't very good at that.
Then I shifted over and enrolled in accounting and finance at.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
UQ even more useless. I know, I was truly useless.
You know how Like at UNI there's like an overall GPA.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
I think it's like one per seven, four as a
pass and a seven as you're really smart. My overall
GPO was a three point seventy five. So to give
you a sense of like where I was on the
past fail scandeight, my overall mark was a fail.
Speaker 3 (05:49):
So I just kind of lower in architecture or lower
in when you went into the finance.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
It was all just low.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
I can't exactly tell you a numbers, it was just
not It was around the past fail numbers, around four
or just below. For some reason, I just university just
never gelled for me. I can't quite make that work.
I was relatively good at school, and then when it
hit UNI. Maybe it was because I had I was
able to work and make my own money and do
(06:17):
my own thing. I was like, university is just a
hindrance in me being able to go and work at
a bar. You know, I love working. Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.
When you in that sort of cycle trying to be.
Speaker 3 (06:28):
A student, were you drawing? Mean, like, when did you
start drawing? Or have you always drawn?
Speaker 2 (06:36):
Loosely drawn? I wasn't wouldn't say I was exceptional. Like
I said, I was just a good student at school.
I think I did the amount of art that everyone
does at school. You have to do English, you have
to do science. Most people do are like you know,
So I was good, but not a standout, And I
think what I enjoyed more than anything. And then when
I was at UNI, you know, I was just doing UNI,
you know, UNI and working. But what it always stuck
(07:00):
with me with drawing. I wasn't even particularly good at that.
I was okay, but I'm not certainly where I'm at
now in terms of skill level. But what always stuck
with me with drawing, and still to this day, is
just how drawing made me feel. I'm not particularly woo woo,
but I just really enjoy being able to sit in
my own thought and it's almost like a form of meditation.
(07:20):
Just sit and draw, sure and just zone out, watch
some Netflix, have a podcast on, listen to audiobooks, you know,
and it's just as a lovely time just I could
spend hours on my own just drawing, and I was
just just I always felt very calm doing that.
Speaker 3 (07:35):
The moment when you decided, okay, UNI's not for you
and you're not for UNI, and you said to your parents,
hard working South Africans, you're absolutely right, yep, come to
Australia and you said, I'm going to take a year
off and I'm going to draw.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
That how was that conversation?
Speaker 2 (07:59):
It was as as you would expect. Mum and dad,
just to be clear, the most beautiful, supportive parents. They
are very hard working, so I think this was just
a bit of a rogue thing to do. You know.
They didn't say no, but they certainly weren't like, great,
how can we you know, let's step in and help.
I think they were just like, this is what you
(08:19):
need to do, go for it. I was still living
at home in the basement with mom and dad, so
fortunately they never kicked me out, so it couldn't have
gone that badly, right, certainly, so they were still happy
to have me at home, but it was it's just
a weird thing to say, I just want to draw.
And they knew I enjoyed drawing, they knew I was
okay at it. But I think Mum was just like, well, artists,
how are you going to support yourself? Like that just
(08:41):
doesn't work? And I said, I don't care. That's just
not my focus. I just want to draw because I
enjoy it. You know, UNI's not going particularly well working
at a bar, you know, like who gives a shit?
So then I kind of sold at that point in time,
I sold my whole wardrobe on eBay. This is when
eBay was really cool, and I saw my wardrobe and
either so I had a little bit of money so
I could buy all my materials.
Speaker 3 (09:02):
And yeah, because you'd also had a taste for luxury
goods before then, Yeah, so you had some high stuff.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
I had champagne taste and beer money. So I would
save up all my money and I would go and
buy fancy things. And where was I going Nowhere? But
I just like to have nice things, you know, like that.
You know, I wasn't out all the time. I just
just enjoyed nice shoes and bags and clothes for no
reason other than I just like to have it. And yeah,
i'd just work at a bar, save up all my
(09:33):
money from tips and whatever else, and I'd just go
buy beautiful things. And then that led to me getting
a job at Chanel, which was in Brisbane, which was amazing.
I learned so much from that. And this was just
me selling handbags. I wasn't doing anything particularly life threatening there.
Speaker 1 (09:49):
It's hard to get a job at Chanel, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
I mean I think so, But somehow I talked my
way in and they said yes, and I said, I said, great,
when did we start? So I spent a couple of
years there and learn a lot just about just luxury
and the selling of luxury. And in all honesty, the
brand sold itself so we didn't have to do a
whole b just had I just had to have chat
really and yeah, I had a grand all time there.
(10:14):
And that's when I was kind of doing Yuni. I'm
trying to piece it all together. Yeah, just I was
just like, I just don't think this is the direction
my life has meant to go. You know, Yuni is
not going well. I don't think I want to work
in retail forever. Let me just try my hand at drawing.
So yeah, that's when I kind of sold my wardrobe
and said, all right, I've got enough. I've got enough
(10:34):
leg room to kind of go through for the next
year and just draw. And that's what I did.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
You went and bought with your wardrobe money.
Speaker 3 (10:44):
You went and brought a whole lot of pencils and
paper stock instead draw.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
Yep, So I went and bought beautiful paper and pens.
I think the thing that I always wanted I didn't
want the quality of my materials to be not great.
I've always liked to do things as well as I can,
or close to perfect. Even from the start, I was like,
I just want this beautiful cotton paper. I want these
like Japanese pens. And also framing was really expensive. Framing
(11:11):
was certainly the more expensive part of this whole thing. Yeah,
and I was just going to draw. The plan was
to just do five drawings, put them in a folio
and take them to galleries around Brisbane and the hope
that they might be interested enough to sign me or
represent me or.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
Something like that.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
And then in the means, you know, I was like,
that might take a couple of months, let's let's work
toward that. And then in that time, that's when social
media was kind of happening. I think my sister was like, oh,
let's just take a photo and post it. I said, okay,
and then yeah, one thing led to another, and I mean,
it's all funny to talk about so like Instagram way
back then, but it isn't.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
It was funny back then, you know.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
You just kind of post and the goal was still, well,
I'm going to go to a gallery because that's what
you do as an artist. Never was I like I'm
going to be a hack on Instagram. I'm like, that
was not That was certainly not the plan, and it's
still not the plan. But I'm still here, I guess,
And also.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
Like, really, what is the plan?
Speaker 3 (12:07):
Because everything in retrospect seems like it's a plan, but
when you're doing it, it's often just instinct or what
you feel like doing.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
And I think it's still instincts, Like very rarely are
we working with like a hardcore plant with anything, you know,
like we'll be building exhibitions. I certainly know where I'm
at now and where I hope to be, you know,
I just like to create things and build exhibitions and
draw whatever that might look like, and just to create
things as often as I can and kind of create
(12:43):
alternate realities for people to experience, you know, and we're
just having a whole lot of fun doing it. The
team's amazing. I've worked with a beautiful team who helped
me execute these ideas.
Speaker 1 (12:52):
You know.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
Everyone works really really hard, harder than me, you know.
And yeah, it's just being able to build these super
creative things and put them into reality and for people
to come and experience them.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
Is the plan this? You know, Well, that's the execution
of the plan, I guess.
Speaker 3 (13:10):
But if you go back to that moment that must
have been it must have had some significance for you.
Was it the rim Williams boots that you were the
first thing you sold?
Speaker 2 (13:20):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (13:21):
That you might be exactly right, right? And how was
that moment that.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
Was game changing? Because they it wasn't an insignificant amo
amount of money. It was like ten thousand dollars, which
is insane. I was like, I even kind of cold around,
So I was like, are you sure? You know, because
I wasn't sure that they wanted it, And then that
it kind of gives you the confidence at that point
to say, gosh, this could be something. And I always
(13:47):
try to encourage people who are looking at ur you know,
or wanting to buy art. I'm like, always support artists
who are starting out. Don't buy my art, Heaven's sake,
who gives a shit about me? Go and support artists
who are just starting out because it can really change
the course of their whole life. And I know this
particular family who bought these rm will into boots like
truly changed my life because it was I was able
to use that money to continue to draw and get
(14:08):
things from and you know, not have to go and
get a job for another six months, because ten thousand
dollars goes such a long way, you know.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
So yeah, it's really important.
Speaker 3 (14:18):
Very unusual, I think for any emerging artist as you
were then, probably didn't even really define yourself maybe as
an artist then.
Speaker 2 (14:27):
No, just someone who liked to draw.
Speaker 3 (14:29):
Yeah, yeah, just for someone to sell their first work
for ten grand is quite incredible.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
It is. But I was looking at it quite logically.
I was like, well, it took me x amount of hours.
If I'm going on a twenty five dollars an hour rate,
that works out. It was probably like three hundred. Yeah,
that was more than.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
The shell rate.
Speaker 2 (14:52):
So I thought I might up a little bit. I thought,
look at me. Yes, I was like, twenty five seems fair.
And I was like, I think I rounded out to
like nine thousand and three. I was like, look rounded
up to ten. That's just my time, you know. And
they seem to like it. Yeah, but yeah, it was.
It did change the course of everything because I was
able to continue to draw. And then I think someone
(15:13):
else reached out and said I'd like to buy something
or commission something, and that's kind of how it.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
Started, you know.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
I I was able to make a little bit of money.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
Yeah, so that was like twenty fourteen. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (15:24):
Had you met Lewis then? Who is now your husband?
So we started officially dating on eleven, twelve thirteen, so yes,
I had yeah. Yeah, So we met just as I
was like loosely starting to draw. He was studying engineering
at UQ. He's very smart. He got his degree.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
I didn't. Yeah, so I think we've just started dating.
Gpa what was his GPM? It's high, you say, he
always downplaying and I was very high. Yeah. Yeah, And
then how did you two meet?
Speaker 2 (15:57):
We met at the Strategy Day races playing Spin the Bottle. Yeah,
just I was out and he was out and someone
dad spit the battle with an after party, and then
I got back's house. Literally, I could tell you exactly
where it was. Yeah, it was so funny. And then
that's kind of happened, and then we just loosely started
(16:19):
hanging out, and yeah, I think he wanted Yeah, do you.
Speaker 3 (16:24):
Think people know all know spin the bottle, which is
an old It's Australian, isn't it.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
It's an Australian Spin the bottle in the.
Speaker 3 (16:33):
Bottle and then when the bottle, both ends of the
bottle points to two people obviously, and then those people
have to kiss.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
That's exactly how it happened. And then here we are. Yeah,
but at that point he was your boyfriend.
Speaker 3 (16:47):
You like drawing, You're selling a couple of things.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
He's going to be an engineer.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
Yeah, he was. He wanted to go somewhere else to work,
and he was toying up between Hong Kong and New York,
and he landed on New York and I was like,
you know what, I'd like to come because I want
to continue, you know, like the art was kind of happening.
I must say, this time I had signed, I'd started
to talk to Bill Tikos, who ran The Cool Hunter.
(17:15):
He was a very instrumental person in developing and growing
my career in the early days. I don't think i'd
be here certainly without him. I could definitely give credit
to a lot of people throughout the years, but he
was instrumental in those early days. He was so confident
and so brazen about selling art. He's like, who gives
a shit that you're sell on Instagram, Let's just go
(17:35):
for it. And I was like, oh, heavens, you know.
So he took care of the sale side of things,
and yeah, heavens, he took care of the sale side
of things, and then I was just able to draw.
So it was a beautiful relationship for many years. And
yeah that it just allowed me to just draw every
day and he handled everything else, which was great.
Speaker 1 (17:53):
So it was around that time that I signed with him.
Speaker 3 (17:56):
But you're also obviously, I mean, I think it's a
hallmark of kind of the way he lives that you're like, well,
I'm going into this area where there are no rules,
so I'm just gonna follow my nose.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
That's a great point, kay, because art, in my opinions
still to this day, is the last unregulated industry. Finance was,
now it's not, and art is completely unregulated. There's no rules,
there's no right or wrongs. It's subjective. People love it,
people hate it. Why is something valued at ten million dollars?
(18:32):
Why is something? Like? Why is something valued at ten dollars?
You know? Like it's why? Like it's so arbitrary, And
that's what I find really fascinating. It's all perceived value.
It's it's storytelling, it's everything. It's commerce and creative mixed
up in one. And it's a beautiful it can be
a beautiful combination. I mean, if you're a commercial artist
like I am, if you're just somebody wants to make
(18:54):
you know art and sell it on Etsy, Yeah, that's
a different type of artist, but it's still an artist.
You know. Just because you're making money doesn't mean you're
any better. Certainly doesn't mean you're any better than someone
making art, you know.
Speaker 3 (19:06):
But it's I find it interesting that you say it's
unregulated because you've kind of made it unregulated, because I
think before you it wasn't it was so or maybe
that's my perception from the outside that it's got a
very elitist overtone, and a lot.
Speaker 1 (19:24):
Of it has to be what does this work mean?
Speaker 3 (19:28):
And normal people are staring at things like boggle eyed
and it kind of made to feel a bit lesser
if they don't understand the motivation of the artist.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
Now, you changed a lot of that.
Speaker 3 (19:41):
Through just doing your art and letting people appreciate it
for what it was.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
Okay, that's very kind of you to say, and I
guess there is an element of that. But by no
means was I going out there to be like, look
at me, I'm going to change some shit. No, I
was just making my art and one thing led to another.
Series of unfortunate events have led me here. But no, was.
It just is what it is. And I think to
(20:10):
your point of art being very elitist, it is still
at the very highest level. It is still. But what
is happening which is really interesting at the very highest
levels from I'm talking two hundred thousand and above into
the millions, art's not moving like they're not moving the
amount of infantry that they once did, because those those
(20:31):
were a different subset of people. You know, like much
you know boomers, now, who are you know, looking to,
you know, slow down their spending or whatever it might be.
And now there's a whole lot of younger kid who
are coming in with either their parents' money or their
own money, self made, who are not interested in buying
Pocassa's for ten million. They're like, that's not very interesting.
(20:52):
I can't meet Pokassa. He's a dead guy, you know.
So I think they are looking to kind of invest
in artists who are slightly younger, who are highly contemporary artists.
And I'm not just talking about myself. There's a whole
lot of people, you know, my peers, who are doing
it as well. I'm certainly not the only one. And
there's everyone's doing a great job. And we're young. We're
(21:14):
like moving at a rapid rate, and it's interesting to watch,
you know. And I think people enjoy that. I mean,
I certainly enjoy it. You know, not everyone loves it.
I'm not looking for worldwide acceptance, but yeah, we're kind
of slowly just taking down the elitist nature of it.
Speaker 3 (21:30):
It's like democratized art and throwing the doors open.
Speaker 2 (21:36):
Yeah, and I think I certainly will build exhibitions and
there's no basis on a wall when you enter. You know,
there's often big, big things you have to read about
what someone's feeling with convoluted words that even I don't know,
and I'm not very I wouldn't even know how to
put that together. I'd have to use AI to write it.
And that just is no interest to me, because then
(21:56):
you're forcing people to feel a certain way when they
walk in. I just want people to walk in with
any age, any background, and you just walk in. You
might love it, you might hate it, but you're going
to feel something when you walk in because you have
to experience. I think whatever that might be. It might
be a bounce house, it might be this big inflatable
climbing things. It might be a church with pedals in London. Like,
(22:17):
there's so many different things we've done over the years,
and they're all different, they're all a bit outlandish, and
people are certainly going to feel something, you know, but
I don't expect you to feel what I feel.
Speaker 3 (22:32):
Coming up after this short breather, CJ explains how she
and her art got discovered by some pretty major power players.
When she followed Lewis to New York.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
He had no say in it.
Speaker 3 (22:50):
I'm curious about the moment when you said to Lewis,
I'm going to come to New York with you? Do
you want me to come to New York with you?
Or was that alike I'm coming to moment?
Speaker 1 (23:06):
Oh where you.
Speaker 2 (23:07):
Were at It was definitely I'm coming to please can
I come? And like, I know, I was like, look,
we're only freshly dating, but like, just let's not plan
too far ahead. I'm a big believer and don't plan
too far ahead because life happens and then your plan
has to change. And if you're too focused on, you know,
on your exact plan, then you're not going to see
(23:27):
the opportunity that they present itself. So I said, look,
we're just dating. Let's just go. If it doesn't work out,
it doesn't work out, let's you know, but let's just
go as just a little, you know, just lovers. Let's
go as lovers. We went as lovers. We rented an
apartment together. He started his business. I was doing my thing,
you know, we just I've always been kind of doing
(23:48):
our own thing, which has been great. And then one
thing led to another. We couldn't afford our apartment anymore.
In Tribeca because I was working from home there drawing
and he would go to work and we couldn't we
needed more space. We couldn't afford to be in Manhattan,
so we got pushed out to Brooklyn to Greenpoint, where
we rented a big warehouse we could afford. And we've
(24:08):
been a green Point ever since. And now green Point's
really cool, but it wasn't cool way back then. It
was a bit shit. And then we've been to Brooklyn
ever since. And we got married. We took our families
to lunch and we just eloped to the Brisbane City Hall.
And then we've got three kids are a four or
three and a six months old.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
So it's been busy. It's been a busy couple of years.
And you seem pretty happy.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
Happy happy as a happy is a sliding scale. I
think there's some days that make me happier than others,
but I think over the course of many years, I'm
like just trying to just coast along. There's always stress
and pressure, whether it be financially. Kids are a whole
different level of stress.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
As you know.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
Any parent can attest to, you know, and any parent
who's working and also has kids, you know, even if
you don't have kids. Just life is stressful in different ways.
So I always try to look on the more optimistic
side because nothing's going to go according to plan. You're
never going to be skinny enough or rich enough, so
I may as well just get into it. He must
like you and I like him. It's a two way street. Yeah,
(25:14):
it's a two way street. Well, I'm very lucky. I
think we're a good little We're just good mates, you know,
like we have a laugh, we don't take anything too seriously. Yeah,
he's he's a good two busy Bogans. You know, it
was meant to be.
Speaker 3 (25:27):
To work at your level, you need to outsource part
of the child.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
All of that. At what point do you and Lewis
go are we?
Speaker 3 (25:39):
How do we find that balance of how much you
outsource with three little kids.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
I'll speak for myself, but I know just talking to
my other mum friends, it's always going to be the
biggest sense of guilt and not knowing what the right
answer is. I mean, you've got four kids. I'm sure
there were most, you know, Like, it's just I'm fortunate
that when I've had my babies, my mum's come over
from Oz to help out. So for the first four months,
she'll be there five months helping out. She's coming over
(26:08):
again for the so my holidays to look after the
big kids. We're fortunate enough to have a nanny who
helps with the baby while we're at work. It's just
a it's a trade off, you know what I mean.
I know on a Saturday and Sunday, I'm fucking miserable.
Lewis and I are about to divorce each other on a
Sunday afternoon when we've had the kids for two days.
So I'm like, well, that's not that's not that's not
(26:28):
the answer. Full time mumming for me is not the answer.
But what we've found is a beautiful balance of going
to work and I pick up Kenny from daycare at
three thirty, so my in the studio times from nine
till about three. And would I like to work a
little bit more, yes, but this is just the time
in our lives, you know. And no, I'm not with
(26:49):
the kids all day, but I love going to work.
It's kind of great because then from you know, like
three thirty till when they go down to bed, which
is never early enough. Yeah, we're just smucking around and
having great time. So but I don't think we've got
the right formul I don't think any parents got the
right format. Everyone's just piecing it together, honestly, and summer
week we're not. We haven't got a better formula than
anyone else. It's fucking hard, and it's fucking childcare is
(27:10):
fucking expensive.
Speaker 3 (27:12):
What was your first significant project that came about once
you'd moved to New York, Because this all seemed to
happen quite rapidly from you leaving Australia.
Speaker 2 (27:24):
It did once again, I was working with the cool
hunter so Bill Tikos. We did an exhibition in Soho
called the Trophy Room, and then that was the one
I did with him. After that exhibition, I kind of
branched out and started to do my own thing. So
I can't even tell you the dates. I could have
been twenty sixteen, twenty seventeen. From there, I kind of
(27:46):
was free falling a little bit because I had always
done my own I had always just done the drawings
and Bell took care of, you know, like looking after
everything else. I then was like, holy shit, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck,
what do I do? I need to do this on
my own now and so yeah, kind of I'm trying
to think how that played out. I think when you're
thrown into the deep and you just kind of figure
(28:08):
it out. That's where Lewis really helped step in. I
was like, I don't know how to do that stuff.
Please help. He's like, we'll figure it out. And so
we then learned how to sell things. That's when we
just started like a Shopify account and we'd sell art
just on Shopify like what you know, like these meant
for like you're meant to sell undias and t shirts
like you know, you're not meant to sell tens of thousands,
(28:31):
you know, and so we're like, well, how else do
we sell it? So that's kind of yeah, we had
an exhibition like let's just start a Shopify account. And
that's how it's always been, you know, like it's not
super complicated.
Speaker 3 (28:42):
And so once again a maverick outside of the gallery
system because galleries, when they get hold of artists, I
mean they can also of course do amazing things for
artists yep, and bring their art to a lot of people,
but they also take a giant chunk of change often
that artists can't afford to be hated.
Speaker 2 (29:05):
Well, I think it depends on the type of artist
you are, right, So I'm very realist in the fact,
like I am a commercial artist. I am fortunate to
make money from I reinvest almost all of it back
into my practice. So that's kind of how I see it,
Like it's it is a business. I run it like
a startup. That's a speed at which we work, you know.
So yeah, but there's some artists who just have no
(29:27):
interest in that. They're like, I just know how to create.
I don't want to schmooz and wheel and deal. I
don't want to do all that stuff. So for them,
the gallery will really work well. So it just really
you just got to figure out what's going to work
best for you.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
And for you, Shopify was Shopify. What's not worked for you?
Speaker 2 (29:44):
Yeah, Shopify was there, And also Lewis was like, hey,
just shop Pilet's go. I'm like all right, you know,
so I was fortunate that he was more techy than
I am. I'm, you know, still just more creative. He's
more logical. Yeah, so that's kind of how I started.
And yeah, but galeries certainly have their place. I can't
discount them. I'll be working with a gallery next year
(30:06):
on an exhibition. But it's it's a it's a megaga,
you know what I mean, Like these are galleries that
are just mega that it's not a quote unquote normal gallery.
You know. So this is like the big it's the
big leagues, you know. It's just there's so many different
ways to be an artist, just just it doesn't look
the same for everyone.
Speaker 3 (30:27):
But speaking of big leagues, then a couple of seminal
things happened, and one of the us was Kanye and
it was him on a on a dollar bill, on
a dollar bill with his face. I just want to
purpose this by saying this one Kanye was at as
prime ten years ago.
Speaker 1 (30:43):
This is not the current Kanye. This is not Kanne
ten years ago.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
And Kanye was back then just truly like he was
an inspiration for me as a creative, and he was
an inspiration to a lot of people. So I just
need to say that because he really was quite something.
Speaker 3 (30:59):
When people look through the prism of the present at
the past, it looks very differently, it does, doesn't.
Speaker 1 (31:05):
It was, Yeah, he was revolutionary. He was such a broad.
Speaker 2 (31:09):
Artist, he was and he was just so creative and
so bold and I took a lot of inspiration from him,
and you know, it just so much of what he
did was so different and it was just.
Speaker 1 (31:21):
Beautiful to watch.
Speaker 2 (31:22):
Yeah, and I put him on a dollar bill and
for somehow he's found out about it and I was
able to you know, he bought it from me way
back then.
Speaker 3 (31:34):
And yeah, you know, but how does Kanye Wete buy
my something from C J Henry?
Speaker 1 (31:41):
Do you know what it was?
Speaker 2 (31:43):
There was a I couldn't remember all the names. It
was Kim, so Kim and Kanye like they just had
now anyway I could go into the hole inner work.
Speaker 1 (31:53):
It was.
Speaker 2 (31:53):
It was through social media. It was through social media.
It was someone who was working with Kim. We still
chat whether they still work together or not. I think
she's the CFO or CEO of Skims. She was also
working closely with Kanye. And one thing, you know, she
was a fan of Cool Hunter. She found out about
it that way and then kind of showed it to him,
and I think that's how it happened. Yeah, but the
(32:16):
Internet you never really know, you never really know how
should happened. It's a beautiful place and nothing's linear. There's
no like clean lines as to how people know, we'll
find out or hear about things anymore, you know.
Speaker 3 (32:27):
But even so, there was a face to face when
you hand it over the artwork.
Speaker 2 (32:33):
Yes, and he was shorter than I thought, and he
was so kind and he gave me. He was very intentional.
He was very softly spoken. And this was five minutes
before he was about to go out and perform. And
it was like he had his little possy there where
did you do the transaction? This is in the Brisbane
(32:56):
I don't know where were you performed in Brisbane?
Speaker 3 (32:58):
Like the yeah about Bood, Yeah, the entertainment center.
Speaker 2 (33:05):
Yeah, it was you know. So then he had his
posse there with there was like five other guys in
the room and Kanye and there was like snacks.
Speaker 1 (33:12):
He's like, do you want a snack?
Speaker 2 (33:13):
I was like, I don't remember exactly that what I said,
but yeah, it was just like I was just so.
Speaker 1 (33:19):
Sort of snacks? Does Kanye wears? I can't remember yet.
Speaker 2 (33:23):
And I remember there being orange juice and water, I
remember that, I remember. Yeah, And then I was sitting
in the while I sitting in the corridor waiting to go,
and Kim walked past.
Speaker 1 (33:33):
I was like, I just waited so casual. I was like, wow, yeah,
so but that was years ago.
Speaker 2 (33:37):
But I'll be honest, I'm not I'm not a celebrity hunter,
nor does that interest me, nor is that a big
deal to me.
Speaker 1 (33:45):
It's just a thing that happened.
Speaker 2 (33:47):
And you know, like there's so many other people who
have bought my art that it's just not that interesting
to talk about.
Speaker 1 (33:55):
You know, Like, however, you know what it is.
Speaker 3 (33:58):
It's this validation because he was an artist and he
was a collector of great art.
Speaker 2 (34:05):
Yeah, this was at the beginning of my career, and
I think there was an l and of this is
where Bill was so great. He was such a brilliant marketer,
and he was like, this is just great publicity. We
have to get that, like people need to know about this.
And I think that was really smart from his end.
I wouldn't have done anything about it, but you know,
he was able to kind of I think place that
(34:26):
in particular, press things that that happened, and so that's
kind of how it all played up.
Speaker 3 (34:31):
It's one thing to say you don't need or require
the external validation, and in fact, probably to do anything
that anyone does, you have to have the most important
vision that you have is your own. Yeah, but nonetheless
it's so nice to have that validation.
Speaker 2 (34:48):
Yeah, especially so early on, you know, when you are
double second guessing yourself and you're not too sure, and
just for someone of that caliber to have a piece
was really special, you know. So yeah, it's certainly catapult
and certainly changed a few things. But I don't know
there's something that happened. But I mean, at the end
(35:08):
of the day, the cele ready buys your art. You
haven't made it, you know, like by no means was
like cool, I'm done here and get concent like, you know,
you're still got to do the work. So it's like
whilst good things happen, and if any good things happened,
I don't spend much time like walling around thinking about it,
like you're still going to go to work the next day.
Speaker 1 (35:28):
Interesting, you know.
Speaker 3 (35:29):
I also I think you seem like that when bad
things happen as well, Yeah, because I'm thinking about the
bad things of like the copyright infringing, yeah, and that
whole series, and.
Speaker 2 (35:40):
You know, yeah, so copyright infringe it was another really
interesting thing that happened. I had done drawings of Andy
Warhol's poloids and I'd crumpled them up and draw on
them and put them on T shirts. And we were
going to do a release online of the T shirts
on our little dinky shopper by account and a couple
I think an hour before the release, we got an
email from the Warhole Foundation saying, hey, you can't do this,
(36:03):
We'll sue you or whatever. You know, a bit of
a season desistent at that time, I'd never had anything.
I was like panicking white, a little bit panicky. I
was like, holy shit, hold of shit, we have to
pull it now. I would have gone ahead with the
relies and not even cared, but back then I'm like,
oh shit. So we didn't do the release, and then
we had all these T shirts and I was like,
I don't want to throw them away.
Speaker 1 (36:23):
But part of.
Speaker 2 (36:23):
The seasoned list was like you have to destroy the inventory.
I was like, well, can't we just like dispose of
them in a more creative way. So we boxed them
up and read boxes and dropped them around the city
and posted the locations on social media. I'm like, well,
they're going to end up in New York City trash
because like, they don't fuck around the trash in New York,
like they'll just pick it up and keep going. But yeah,
(36:44):
and then it turned into this thing, you.
Speaker 3 (36:45):
Know, yes, a brilliant a brilliant thing, like a worldwide
scavenger hunt.
Speaker 2 (36:53):
But like that, to me, we weren't going out to
do that. It was just like, how do you just
do something? I think I'm relatively creative and relatively bullish,
so you know, if you put those two things together,
I have little to no issue. You know. Yes, I
was nervous about the lawsuit, but I was like, let's
just dispose of them in a fun way. Like there
(37:14):
was no rule saying you can't be creative with disposal.
So I was like, Paul, no, let's do that.
Speaker 1 (37:23):
That's not all to our chat.
Speaker 3 (37:25):
Coming up, I get to surprise Cej with a story
about a young fan of hers and it inspires her
to make a very special announcement that you are not
going to want to miss. I'm going to share something
with you now, Okay, A bit of feedback from a
(37:46):
girlfriend of mine, one of her really good friends. And
so we were living in Italy in twenty nineteen, and
I remember back here in Australia, friends of ours were
saying that you were there.
Speaker 1 (37:58):
It must have been like September or whatever.
Speaker 3 (38:00):
You were here and you're going to do the copyright
infringement and it was a frenzy amongst the people that
knew frenzy. So this is a message from Tiff dam
her name is. She said, Hi, Kate, so excited for
your no Filter with CJ. Hendry The Girls. She's got
two daughters, the Girls, and I have been following her
(38:21):
art for years. Back in September twenty nineteen school holidays,
she came to Melbourne to do the copyright infringement scavenger hunt.
Seemed like a good way to fill up a day
in the holidays, so got the kids all excited and
mapped out our game plan. Frankie eleven at the time.
(38:41):
She decided to choose an iconic venue and wait, rather
than chase clues. Very clever give out clues to where
things were going to be. Mcg was decided and she
found a spot she thought might be it. Two hours later,
Frankie screamed, Mum, she's here. Some other guy beat us
(39:06):
to the box. So they were both running full pelt
for the red box for what happened, But get a
load of this, Yeah, he saw that Frankie was heartbroken,
and he split the box with us.
Speaker 2 (39:22):
Oh a true icon, A true icon.
Speaker 3 (39:26):
Frankie's had it framed in her room until yesterday when
we dropped it at a framers to be professionally mounted.
Thank you, CJ for one of the best memories and
for inspiring my girls to draw. That's tiff dam Oh
my god, Kate, can we share numbers?
Speaker 1 (39:42):
The beautiful guy, I don't even know what his name is.
Speaker 2 (39:45):
I'll track him down. Don't worry, we'll track him down.
Oh that's divine what.
Speaker 1 (39:49):
You did, now, you know.
Speaker 3 (39:52):
I mean, people can say art has a meaning or
art doesn't have a meaning. You know, I know that
your stuff has maybe been trivialized in the past, your
God forbid. But what you've what you actually did there
was so extraordinary that you made the power of you
(40:15):
brought them together. And the guy shared with a little
girl the ultimate price.
Speaker 2 (40:23):
What a delicious man. Oh my god. And look at
that delicious little god that is she's sharing that story, Kate.
That's really lovely. That like makes each here up. That's
so I know, that's so special because it's like I'm
just here drawing, just doing the thing, and I don't
think like when we're making or building a concept, like
I'm in all honesty not thinking of what people are
(40:47):
going to experience, because that's not my job, you know,
like you know what people think about me or my
art is not my business. We just build it and
then they come and then they experience it how everyone's
going to experience it in their own way. And I
think that's really special. And what we were talked about
earlier is making art accessible. I think what's brought me
more joy than anything is not selling expensive art, like
(41:08):
that's that's something that happened, but it's building exhibitions is
always a free component, very like most of the time
the exhibitions are free. If they're not free, they're like
a five dollar entry or something as accessible as possible.
And like being able to build something big and then
allow people who you know, they might not be a
(41:28):
position to buy art just to be a part of it,
Like that's really special because, like you said, I always
feel really uncomfortable going into galleries. I feel looked down
upon and I'm like, oh shit, they know that we're
not rich. It's the same walking into luxury brands. And
I think in my early days of working at Chanelle,
I really went out of my way to just make everyone.
I know they weren't coming into buy ten thousand dollar handbag,
(41:50):
but just give them a great experience, because like, who
am I? I'm like, I'm owning less money than you,
so like, come on in, let's try a handbag on.
Speaker 3 (41:58):
You know.
Speaker 2 (41:58):
So it's so the same thing goes with art. You
can do big things and you don't need to be
nasty about it.
Speaker 1 (42:06):
That's so true.
Speaker 2 (42:08):
I feel very uncomfortable with the high end art world.
I don't like how it is. It's always going to
be that way. It's that way for a reason, but
I just I've always felt uncomfortable by it, and I've
always been made to feel small and uncomfortable. I'm like,
why why do you need to feel uncomfortable around art?
Speaker 1 (42:24):
Like that's not how it's meant to be. What do
you think that's based on?
Speaker 3 (42:28):
Do you think that's as it's defending.
Speaker 1 (42:32):
The fortress of power? I think it's an old school mentality.
Speaker 2 (42:36):
To sell expensive things, you have to.
Speaker 3 (42:38):
Be rude and not rude, but you know, like you
know that luxury the best examples when you walk into
expensive stores it's like they're floating at They're not particularly
happy or friendly.
Speaker 2 (42:48):
You're like, why I think it's changing, Kate. I think
things are changing. I think the age like people are
not in You don't need to make the experience uncomfortable
to sell things at a higher price point, Like it
can be a beautiful, friendly experience, you know, like that's
what we're learning. It can be accessible. Like my brand
has things that are low, medium, high, you know, not
(43:11):
everyone's coming in for the higher stuff. I certainly wouldn't
buy my expensive art. It's way too expensive, you know,
thanks to everyone who does. But yeah, I'm a terrible investment.
Speaker 3 (43:21):
But now you must have noticed, well I'm assuming that
this has happened, is that you were kind of outside
the mainstream art world for a long time. Now the
mainstream art world is coming to you.
Speaker 2 (43:38):
Do you know why? I think it is art follows
money and it's a really gross it's really gross. But
there's only so long that the like the bigger, higher
end art world. I just this is just the way
things are moving. And like I said before, like works
above two hundred thousand, above a million are not moving
at the volume that they once did, and the people
(44:01):
and gallerists are interested in this different group of people
who are buying art. They don't need to be interested
in warholes. They might be interested in other artists that
they've found on Etsy, your Instagram or whatever that might be.
You know, it's changing shift.
Speaker 1 (44:16):
They're like, we can share ten thousand such flowers. Yeah,
of your guards exactly.
Speaker 2 (44:22):
So it's like, you know, things are changing and the
market's changing, and being accessible and friendly is a good thing,
you know, Like it's not about being unattainable and awkward.
Speaker 1 (44:33):
That's just not relevant anymore.
Speaker 3 (44:36):
But I do think there's a certain purity to what
you do very kind, Yeah, I just do, or a
certain integrity or whatever. And I think maybe just because
it sort of comes so from yourself, I'm curious about
how then when you get these other attendant you know,
(44:58):
when you're offered all the bounty of the world and
the accolades and the knighthood of revered artists, Like, how.
Speaker 1 (45:06):
Do you keep your channel clear?
Speaker 2 (45:09):
I think that's so funny that even comes up. It's
just the channel clear is like if you get complacent
and you think you've made it, that's like the end.
Speaker 1 (45:18):
That's the end. Wrap up shop, you.
Speaker 2 (45:21):
Know what I mean. It's like we've still there's so
much to do, Like there's so much to do, We're
so busy doing stuff, like not for a second are
we sitting down or am I sitting down to say joh,
jolly good job?
Speaker 1 (45:32):
Like it kiss a shit, shut the fuck up, like
keep get to work, like why are you late?
Speaker 2 (45:38):
You know what I mean? Like that's so it's just
I find that a really useless way to think and be.
And you would have seen it a million times everyone has.
It's like people get an inch of notoriety and then
they take a step back.
Speaker 1 (45:51):
And then they gone, You're like where was where was
that person?
Speaker 2 (45:54):
You know? And it's like, well, because they got lazy,
they've got complacent. You know. I'm a worker. I love working.
Work brings me so much joy being busy doing something.
It doesn't even need to be particularly aggressible, being just pottering.
I love always doing something, doing a craft, Like you know,
we're always doing something in that studio.
Speaker 3 (46:16):
I want you to do even though it doesn't matter
what I want you to do, but I just love
you to keep.
Speaker 1 (46:22):
Doing what you're doing.
Speaker 3 (46:23):
I hope so if one day you decide again to
do another copyright infringement.
Speaker 1 (46:27):
Oh we might bring it back. Gosh, you'd make people
let's do it? Why what would you? Yeah, because you've
asked so nicely, why.
Speaker 2 (46:35):
Don't I just say, because you've asked, just with your
best ask, why don't I just say, yeah, fuck it,
will do it next year?
Speaker 1 (46:43):
How about that?
Speaker 3 (46:44):
And you can hold me to it for astrata and
then anyone this podcast said, but you said, and then
you can hold me to it.
Speaker 1 (46:51):
Why not let's do it? Yes, yeah, that sounds like
that's right. And then I'll be like, she's not taking
my course? Why not?
Speaker 2 (46:58):
Like that's what I mean, Like we don't plan to
for a head, I'm like, fuck it. Give the people
what they want. If they want a copyright infringement. Copyright
infringement is what they'll get.
Speaker 1 (47:06):
Why not infringe your way, baby, CJ.
Speaker 3 (47:10):
What I am curious about is and because your technique
of your hyperrealism of making things look it's almost magical
that you look at something go but surely that's liquid
and it's not it's flat on paper. I know people
like to say your art is amazing, that it is,
(47:32):
but how do you feel about AI? Because you know
somewhere someone's loaded all your art works up and there's
there's some robots somewhere going I can see J Hendry like,
so I use.
Speaker 2 (47:46):
AI to help come up with you know, mood boards
or concepts and things like that. I think AI is
a beautiful tool to use, and if people want to
make fake CJ. Hendries and sign them, go for it,
Like it doesn't bother me. Certainly doesn't bother me in
the slightest. I think AI what AI can't do. AI
(48:06):
can't build your building. AI can't make, you know, make
it a real drawing on the piece, but they can
do a print out. They can do a rendering of
what wasn't original, you know what I mean. So it's
like it's like people can make fake Oma's handbags, but
it's still not the real one.
Speaker 1 (48:24):
So it's like, if.
Speaker 2 (48:25):
People want to just do an AIC Jane Framant, I'm like,
go for it, Like it's just doesn't bother me, you know,
and I asked it just a beautiful tool. But I
think building things in reality is now more interesting than ever,
you know, like not just the drawing side, but when
we're building bigger exhibitions and concepts, Like sometimes people look
at the photos that are like, oh my god, Like I
think last year we built a swimming pool in the desert,
(48:48):
which was a fucking clusterfug but it looks like AI
like because it's like that swimming pool is not meant
to be in the middle of nowhere. So we're kind
of my whole prep pre Like, my premise for building
these exhibitions is kind of building these artificial realities so
people can walk through them and experience them in real life.
So that's really important to me. So, yeah, you can
(49:09):
build something online all day long, but we were just
talking about before, like shopping in a shopping center. It's
like you can shop online, but doing things with people
and going to an exhibition is so important, you know.
And yeah, you could buy my ard online, but going
and experiencing it it's a different thing.
Speaker 1 (49:27):
I must say.
Speaker 3 (49:28):
There would be a delicious irony if you had to
sue AI for copyright infringement.
Speaker 2 (49:34):
Yeah, but I never would n Oh my god, Kate,
You've given me an idea. What are I like, do
a cj AI and then I rip it all.
Speaker 1 (49:46):
I don't know there's something in there that copyright Next
year Infinity Mirrors.
Speaker 2 (49:52):
Yeah, there we go so that there's something in that.
So I don't know, or maybe I'll just oh, here's one.
This will be really easy for me. I'll just do
AI cjs and try and flog them as originals and
see if anyone can tell the difference.
Speaker 1 (50:06):
There you go, there go, and then I'll buy one
and I'll I don't know.
Speaker 2 (50:16):
I just think, Kate, like, this is the world, this
is where we live, and you just work with it.
Like people, you can fight against stuff while you're wasting
your energy.
Speaker 1 (50:25):
You know, it's not like what we're going to shut.
Speaker 2 (50:27):
Down AI, noing on.
Speaker 1 (50:28):
It's a beautiful thing. Just use it, embrace it and
get on with it. That was CJ.
Speaker 3 (50:37):
Hendry, an utter Australian delight, as delightful as the Lamington,
no fuss, no ego, just head down, bum up, making
extraordinary things happen, and somehow kind of making them feel easy.
What struck me most about CJ is in a world,
(50:58):
the art world, that can be so intimidating or exclusive,
it's her refusal to play by anyone else's rules. She's
not trying to be accepted by the art world because
she's too busy building her own. The executive producer of
No Filter is Nama Brown. The senior producer is bre Player.
(51:19):
Sound design and editing by Jacob Brown and I am
your host, Kate lane Brook.
Speaker 1 (51:25):
Thank you so much for sharing
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