December 17, 2025 • 36 mins
For 300 years, the Conservative Party has been one of the most powerful forces in British politics. But it could soon be extinct, destroyed and replaced by the rising power of Reform. Cambridge professor and Reform adviser James Orr is in Phoenix for Amfest and joins the show to discuss the fate of Britain. Plus, he reacts to the testimony of Todd Nettleton about persecuted Christians around the world, from Nigeria to Syria to India.
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All right, welcome to our to the Charlie Kirk Show.
I'm Andrew Colett, Blake neft to my left.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
Affected switch sides on the table, and the reason being
is that in studio we have the great doctor James
or pleasure to have you, sir.
Speaker 4 (01:22):
Great to be with you, Andrew, great to be with you.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
Blake.
Speaker 3 (01:25):
Well, it's it's always a treat. You know, some of
my best, most favorite last memories with Charlie you happen
to be a part of as well, and and so
that is really close to my heart and I know
to yours as well, and I'm glad we had that time.
And then you came back afterwards, and I know you've
(01:47):
made some trips to Phoenix and you're gonna be joining
us for Amfest. So I think we're all excited you're
actually gonna be moderating some discussions.
Speaker 4 (01:54):
So I believe I've any just just found this out,
maybe a few days acause well, I'm really excited we've
all in. I think I've got three debates to moderate,
including some pretty neuralgic difficult topics. I think there's one
on one on God. You don't get harder than that,
and there's one on Israel. And I think they thought, well,
(02:15):
who are going to give the hospital pass to let's
let's send it to the brit Who cares if he
plays up?
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3 (02:21):
It's not like you have your own reputation to worry
about here, doctor, or you of course are very.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Active with reform in the UK. How things gone over there?
Speaker 4 (02:32):
Things are going extremely well. In fact, in many ways
there isn't really a historical precedent for how well reformed
UK is doing well. What we're witnessing is really the
emergence for the first time in the history of British politics,
a new party of the right that is credible, that
has increasingly well, very strong popular support. I think we've
(02:53):
been leading at about a one hundred and sixty polls
poll after poll. We've made some amazing incursions electorally back
in May sweat the local elections. Looks like we're going
to do extremely well in Wales and in Scotland. So
the energy is extraordinary. The moment where we're sometimes polling
(03:14):
higher than the combined polling of the Labor Party and
the Conservative Party, the two historic parts.
Speaker 5 (03:19):
I want to highlight that that they've had a few
different parties towards the left end of the politic. They
used to have the Liberals and they're still around, but
they're small and they got replaced by Labor. But the Conservatives,
and before them the Tories, they're olders. In America, there
was a I believe it was a Tory prime minister
when the American Revolution were absolutely and they've been the
party of government typically in Britain for three hundred years,
(03:43):
and it might all go down in flames.
Speaker 3 (03:45):
Well, and you know, are we still a first question,
what's the animating factor?
Speaker 4 (03:51):
Well, I think for the one in very important animating
factor was a negative one, namely just the routine betrayal
and competence of successive laboring Tory governments over certainly over
the last twenty five years, over the Tory period. You know,
the Conservatives let in in the last in their last
(04:12):
parliament from sort of twenty nineteen to twenty twenty four,
more legal and illegal migrants than we've seen in our history.
Why well, all sorts of complicated reasons behind it. But
I think part of the problem was a belief in
the dogma of the Treasury that the British economy will
(04:33):
collapse if we don't keep the Ponzi scheme going, if
we don't keep bringing in hundreds of thousands, indeed millions.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
Of people to help to help prop up the prop.
Speaker 4 (04:41):
Up the economy and do the jobs that Brits don't
want to do. It's the same old story.
Speaker 5 (04:46):
Well so appalling just because you did the Biden wave
of except they call it Boris way of there and
it was I think higher than Biden's level of immigration
when you adjusted for the cybluation, untry and with a
right wing government. They've had only right of cen governments
in the UK until Starmar from twenty ten to last year,
and they did the full open borderspiel from the right.
Speaker 4 (05:08):
That's exactly right, and so that's I think that's the
first thing that's really driving support for US because reform
has been very very clear on migration from the very beginning.
It's very clear on the fiscal suicide of net zero
and the need to get some energy independence and energy sovereignty.
It's been very clear on questions.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
Of free speech.
Speaker 4 (05:29):
We had the passing of the Online Safety Act just
just a few months ago, and this is this is
really a censorship charter, using the wedge of trying to
get some statutory protection for children online, but folded into
that enormous piece of legislation was effectively at measures and
tools that equip our offcom our media regulator with enormous
(05:54):
powers to censor, and even substack is now having to
censor certain articles to apply with the legislation.
Speaker 5 (06:01):
I think even I think even x anounced today that
they just said some of our material is going to
have to be taken down in Europe and you have
to watch out for what you post, because.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
Well, you're all in. But we can't defy these last
just yet.
Speaker 4 (06:13):
The European Union is developing its own kind of censorship
chafter that is even more draconian, and it's it's you know,
it's extraordinary what's happening. And so we're very committed to
getting free speech right if we ever got got got
got into power, and it's quite straightforward to do it.
There's just just a few provisions and a few acts
(06:34):
here and there that need to be amended or clarified
or simply repealed, and that could have an enormous downstream
effect on the culture of freedom.
Speaker 5 (06:43):
You guys are so largely in Britain, they just have
supremacy of parliament. They can essentially just if you have
a majority, you can pass any law you want on anything,
but I want to on the free speech thing. H
Can you talk about the islamophobia definition that's been going
on in the past couple of days.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
That's another Yeah.
Speaker 4 (07:00):
So this has been a long running debate in the
public square over the last few years in Britain, and
there's been a big push on the left and now
with the Labor Party, which has an enormous majority in
the House of Commons, to effectively legislate a different definition
and protect or rather protect any anyone who feels themselves
(07:20):
to be a victim of Islamophobia. And so there's been
a lot of back and forth and actually Parliament has
been working very well, has been excellent Tory MPs who've
been getting up and pointing out just whatdd an incursion
on freedom of speech and freedom of religion this definition
would be because effectively, what they're trying to do is
to allied sort of beliefs with identity. And so the
(07:44):
thought is that you know, to be a Muslim is
to have is to have a particular identity, rather than
to have that identity and virtue of subscribing to a
set of set of beliefs, beliefs that plainly can be
criticized in any freedomocracy, and indeed and should be criticized,
should be open to criticism. But so the government's back
down is trying to tweak the definition and now it's
something like anti Muslim, anti Muslim hatred or anti Muslim. Yeah,
(08:08):
I think it's anti Muslim hatred. And the problem with
that is it just you know, it just bakes in
the problem.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
If they have an anti white hatred.
Speaker 4 (08:17):
They technically yes, policy technically yes, I mean there is
all of this sort of exists under the equality legislation,
but this would be a special provision to be a
special protection.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
Which where they're.
Speaker 4 (08:28):
Trying to say by shifting to anti Muslim hate as
opposed to Islamophobia, we've kind of solved the problem, but
we don't, because again the assumption is there that's somehow
to be a Muslim is to be a member of
a race or to be a member of an ethnic group,
which plainly you're not. You're a Muslim just if you
can do the Shahada three times or whatever it might be,
you could the three of us could become Muslims on
(08:49):
the next half hour. It's completely nothing to do with
our ethnicity or race.
Speaker 5 (08:52):
I'm looking at the latest draft definition and it includes
as something that would be banned the prejudicial stereotyping and
racialization of muslim to stir up hatred against them. That
just strikes me as an incredibly broad stereotyping of Muslims.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
To say there's a.
Speaker 5 (09:08):
Common trait that a lot of Muslims have.
Speaker 4 (09:11):
Well, I think that what you would have to say
to speak to a trait that a lot of Muslims
have is you'd have to pick out some doctrinal commitment,
you know, some belief that should be contestable in a
free democracy. It's not. There's nothing distinctive ethnically or racially
distinctive about being Muslim. As we said, it's simply whether
(09:32):
or not you sign up to a belief system. And
so what it's doing is it's protecting that belief system,
protecting the identity that you have in virtue of signing
up to the belief.
Speaker 5 (09:41):
It's an ideological belief. And then you say you can't
stereotype a belief system, well what is?
Speaker 2 (09:46):
What is it?
Speaker 6 (09:47):
Then?
Speaker 3 (09:47):
Well, yeah, but what about you know, genital mutilation of
young girls. That tends to be something that happens in
Muslim African nations. What about the grooming gangs you know
that tend to be centralized within a particular immigrant group
that happened to be Muslims. So then all this stuff,
(10:08):
all of a sudden, these get very sticky.
Speaker 4 (10:09):
Yes, these topics, absolutely right. I mean what's interesting about
that is that ironically, this legislation could make people think
that criticism about grooming gangs or criticism about female genital
mutilation is something somehow a widespread shared is Islamic belief,
but it's not. It's actually you know, certainly the grooming
(10:29):
gangs come from very particular area of Pakistan, and FGM
is localized in parts of Sub Saharan Africa.
Speaker 7 (10:37):
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Speaker 2 (11:46):
So tell us establish yourself your bona fides. What do
you do? Who are you?
Speaker 4 (11:50):
Well, my main job vacation is in academia, so I'm
an associate professor of philosophy religion at Cambridge in England
where I teach undergraduates. I teach graduates students PhD students,
so I love doing that, but I have another day
job now, where as senior advisor to Nigel Farage, Leader
Reform UK, and and we are all expecting our next
(12:11):
prime minister and twenty twenty nine, well, twenty million nine
is the latest that the election can be called, and
I'm not sure the country can last that long, but
it's possible that the government will fall before that. We're
good at getting very good at getting rid of prime ministers.
Getting rid of governments is a lot harder. Yeah, Okay,
Turkeys don't vote for Christmas, which you have to vote
(12:32):
for the government to fall, even if they hate the
head Turkey. Yeah, yeah, exactly, we do do.
Speaker 3 (12:39):
We do Turkey at Christmas too, but it's more of
a thanks. I don't know, all right, No, stra damis
or when would you predict that we're actually going to
be able to vote again in the UK? Is it
going to be twenty twenty nine or you predict before?
Speaker 4 (12:53):
Well, I mean the first thing to say is that
we've got what Nigel is calling our mid terms sort
of an American phrase, but we have got a big
set of regional local devolved elections next May, so the
whole of Wales gets to vote for its local parliament.
Same in Scotland. And then there's thousands of seats around
Greater London and all around England that are going to
(13:15):
be up for grabs, and we're expecting a turquoise tsunami.
We're expecting a reform UK to do extremely well in
all of those elections, and that will be the last
time that the British people get to express their democratic
will before the next general election. The latest that can
be constitutionally is the first week of August twenty twenty nine,
and it could be that Kirstarmer many people don't think
he's going to be Prime Minister for that much longer,
(13:36):
but whatever whoever, his success would have until the first
week of August twenty twenty nine. But it could be
that something happens before that. We're expecting a recession, we're
expecting perhaps a very tight credit squeeze before twenty twenty nine,
so it's not impossible that we'd be looking at a
general election twenty twenty seven. I think I'm probably more
(13:59):
inclined to say it's going to be twenty twenty nine.
I think the last one hundred years the British government's
fallen maybe once. You know, when you change Prime Minister,
you don't change the British government. You just change the
leader of the party who's got the majority in Parliament.
Speaker 5 (14:12):
And it just seems to me, I can't figure out
why Labor would call an election just to get killed
the whole power.
Speaker 4 (14:19):
While you have it exactly as they said earlier. You know,
Turkeys don't vote for Christmas, even if they hate their
head Turkey, which they do. And indeed, the whole of
the British left is the Turkey, the whole pretty bland definitely.
But yeah, the whole of the British left now is
really cannibalizing itself. It's it's splintering off into all kinds
of different movements. We've seen for the first time ever,
(14:40):
really the Green Party now getting into well into double
digits in the polls.
Speaker 5 (14:44):
Could we get Green versus reform as it's not unthinkable, it's.
Speaker 3 (14:48):
Not on especially what we have in the United States,
Maga versus Mandani, right.
Speaker 4 (14:54):
Yeah, I mean so it's very very interesting seeing the
parallels between somebody like Mandani and Zach Polanski, who is
this the new leader of the Green Party, and it's
growing very very fast as a party.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
It's easy.
Speaker 4 (15:07):
I think you only paid like five pounds to get in,
so it probably be quite easy to to do some
entryism and maybe hijack the Green Party. But as far
as we're concerned, it's it's it's fantastic. You know, may
may many flowers on the British left bloom because it's
basically fracturing the vote between you know, you've got you know,
sort of the focus on well, I mean, there are
(15:30):
focus on the crescent, you might say, there's that, there's
a focus on the rainbow, there's a focus on the.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
Star with the old socialists.
Speaker 4 (15:36):
So it's this is not going to not get to
work out well, and and the cracks are emerging. The
Parliamentary Labor Party is very welfareist, very very statist. Starmer
tried to get a tiny little haircut five billion pounds
off our ballooning three hundred billion pounds a year welfare
(15:57):
bill and he couldn't get it through even though he
had a majority in Parliament of about one hundred and
seventy five seats. So and then that's the most, you know,
just just a very very tiny, very very small exercise
of kind of restraining our public expenditure. So yeah, things
things are not looking good on that side of on
(16:17):
that on that side of British politics, and on the right, yes,
that they're supposed to. So they're also figures popping up.
There's a Tommy Robinson's groupe at Low's, there's ben Hepbeves.
It's really interesting figures on the right. So it's not
like we're completely unified, but that's where the energy is.
I think there's a feeling that that's where the policy
energy is, that's where the people are, it's where the
(16:39):
best ideas are fizzing on the right.
Speaker 5 (16:41):
So we just discussed with Steve Dais and our last
guest about the recurring Republican problem of elect people to
restrict immigration or do other bold things, and they just
get these feed of Clay in office. So I suppose
one obvious concern is reform wins the landslide twenty seven
or twenty nine. Do they have the stone to go
through with a big immigration cutback or moratorium or are
(17:04):
there big sweeping things or is there going to be
a lot of are people going to worse out at
the at the brink.
Speaker 4 (17:10):
Yeah, somebody told me, I think it was about a
year ago that the process, there's a name for that process,
what happens to you as you go in and the
melonification malonification, which I think actually in retrospect is probably
unfair to Georgia and Maloney who is reputed to have
come in with talking tough on migration and then actually
folded as soon as she as soon as she got in.
But actually I think if you look at her numbers,
what she's done, her track record, it's been pretty impressive.
(17:33):
So it's going to be very, very challenging. We're going
to be up against one of them, you know, one
of the most effective blobs as it were, as you
call it in England in the world, is enormous inertia,
huge resistance probably to almost all of our program despite
we're having widespread popular support across all the different parties
getting regaining control of our borders. So it's going to
(17:55):
be extremely difficult. We're going to be up against the
judicial industrial complex, the human rights.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
I'm very fascinated.
Speaker 3 (18:03):
That was actually my question about legally, what are you
guys going to because we trump gets stopped at every judge,
every district judge with a gavel in a robe, and
I can only imagine, just knowing the nature somewhat of
the English intelligensia, that you're going to be up against
a real stiff fight.
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Speaker 3 (19:45):
We've got a full house here, doctor James or, Blake
Nef myself, and we're about to bring in one more.
Joining us now is Todd Nettleton, author of When Faith
Is Forbidden. He's also the voice of the Martyrs radio
host Todd Welcome to the show.
Speaker 6 (20:01):
Thanks so much. Good to be with you.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
Yeah, honored to be with you.
Speaker 3 (20:05):
You're also joined by doctor James Or from Cambridge and
this is an issue near and dear to his heart
as well. So we're going to have a fun, well
not of fun. It's a serious and important conversation. You
have been traveling around interviewing persecuted Christians in South Asia,
and I think a lot of people a lot of
discussion right now is about Nigeria. This is kind of
(20:26):
if you're going to talk about this topic, that's where
you're focused on. But you know there are other areas
of the world that we need to be aware of
where Christians are being persecuted actively. Right now, please tell
us about some of your stories out of South Asia.
Speaker 8 (20:39):
Yeah, one of the things we heard repeatedly in South
Asia was stories of Christians being affected by the anti
conversion laws in India. So multiple states now twelve states
in India have past laws that make it illegal to
change your religion and illegal to encourage someone else to.
Speaker 6 (20:57):
Change their religion.
Speaker 8 (20:59):
So right now there are dozens of pastors in prison
under these anti conversion laws. And one of the interesting
things is the inducement, the idea of inducing someone to
change their faith is illegal. We actually had an interview
and we've aired it now on Voice the Martist Radio
with a human rights attorney who is talking about if
(21:19):
you set up donuts and coffee before your church service,
the government can come in and say, hey, that's an
illegal inducement. You're giving donuts and coffee away, You're tricking
people into changing their religion. That's the kind of silliness
that these laws are based on. Here's the other thing, though,
it is not illegal to reconvert someone to Hinduism. In fact,
(21:41):
an Indian member of parliament just in the last few
weeks has presided over what they call a reconversion ceremony,
reconverting people back to Hinduism.
Speaker 6 (21:50):
They can do that by force.
Speaker 8 (21:52):
But if a Christian invites you to church, if the
Christian gives you donuts and coffee, that's an illegal inducement
to change your religion.
Speaker 2 (22:00):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (22:01):
So twelve states had to look this up. There's twenty
eight states in India, so we're at nearly half of
the country of India. It is now legal And I
don't know population, you know, at what percentage of the
population that would make up, But that that is striking,
especially for a British former British run colony, if you will.
Speaker 2 (22:21):
But so.
Speaker 3 (22:24):
When did that start changing? I'm curious when did that
those laws start passing.
Speaker 6 (22:28):
Well, they really took a lot of momentum.
Speaker 8 (22:31):
When Prime Minister Modi, who has come out of this
Hindu nationalist movement called the RSS.
Speaker 6 (22:38):
That is his background.
Speaker 8 (22:39):
He's the Prime Minister of the whole country of India
and so he has brought that philosophy to.
Speaker 6 (22:44):
The highest levels of the Indian government.
Speaker 8 (22:46):
Now they have talked about a national anti conversion law.
So far that has not happened, but there are individual
states where they have passed these anti conversion laws.
Speaker 6 (22:56):
And you know, when they talk about.
Speaker 8 (22:57):
It, it sounds like a good idea, like, hey, we
don't want people to be bribed or forced to change
their religion. And I think all of us would say, yeah,
that's true, we don't want that. But then, like I say,
when you get to what the law actually says, and
some of the laws, there's one state that says, if
you want to change your religion, you need to go
before a magistrate and say that you're going to change
(23:19):
your religion. And if you want to talk to someone
else about changing their religion what us Christians would call evangelism,
you need to go before a magistrate six months before
you have that conversation, and you need to appear and say, hey,
in six months, I'm going to talk to my neighbor
about coming to church with me.
Speaker 6 (23:37):
I just want to get your okay, mister magistrate. And
it's like you read that and you're like that that's ludicrous.
No one could do that, No one would do that. Yes, exactly.
Speaker 8 (23:46):
So when you have that conversation, then they can come
in and say, well, hey, six months ago you didn't
go to the magistrate.
Speaker 6 (23:51):
That was illegal. You're going off to jail.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
You've you know.
Speaker 3 (23:56):
It kind of makes me think of this story that's
kind of percolating and we haven't talked about it yet,
but Rep. Mark Warren Walker from North Carolina, he's a
Trump's nominee for religious freedom and he's just been waiting
for a committee hearing, so we can't seem to get
that through. He's getting blocked apparently by a political form
of political foe. But these are the types of stories
(24:18):
we need to be educated on about why those types
of posts are so important within the Trump administration.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
Let's kind of keep going around the map here.
Speaker 3 (24:28):
So we talked about South Asia, there's issues in Central Asia,
and there's obviously Nigeria. Highlight the stories that you think
are our audience needs to hear most well.
Speaker 8 (24:39):
I think of Nigeria obviously it's in the news. Just
on Sunday there was another raid on a church. Thirteen
Christians kidnapped out.
Speaker 6 (24:48):
Of their church.
Speaker 8 (24:49):
Right now, we don't know was this Boko Haram, was
this isis West Africa Province. Wasn't just a criminal gang
that wants ransom. They're trying to fundraise and so their
kid napping people for ransom.
Speaker 6 (25:01):
Right now, we don't know that.
Speaker 8 (25:03):
But this is happening again and again and again, and
I think at some point you start to ask the question, well,
is the Nigerian government incapable of stopping these kinds of
attacks or do they not have the will to stop
these kinds of attacks?
Speaker 6 (25:17):
And those are valid questions.
Speaker 8 (25:20):
Since President Trump named Nigeria as a Country of Particular
Concern earlier this year, it's going to be really interesting
to see how the State Department plays that out and
what tools are brought to bear to help Nigeria. Again, typically,
it's not the government of Nigeria that is persecuted Christians,
it is these terrorist groups, It is Islamis from among
(25:40):
the Fulani tribe, it is other sort of smaller players.
Speaker 6 (25:44):
So it's going to be interesting.
Speaker 8 (25:46):
To see how that CPC status plays out and how
the State Department sort of acts that out in our
relationship with Nigeria well.
Speaker 3 (25:54):
And one of the more surprising things. I don't know
if you've heard this story, doctor or but Nikki Nase
of all people, has been helping raise awareness. You can
throw up two sixty two. She's been She have a
keynote remark on combating religious violence and the killing of
Christians in Nigeria. She's been working, willing to work with
(26:15):
the Trump administration to raise awareness on this. I mean,
this is a I have to say. I've not traditionally
been a fan of the rapper known as Nicki Minaj,
but I mean, what good for her? How many Christians
have been silent, how many conservatives have been silent about
the persecution of the Christian Church in Nigeria, the slaughter
(26:37):
of Christians? And then Nicki Minaj comes here and she
helps make it a national news story, an international news story.
It already was one, but raising the profile of that story.
Have you seen movement even at Voice of the Martyrs
since she's gotten involved.
Speaker 8 (26:52):
Oh, it is interesting to have other voices that you
weren't expecting. Bill Maher did the same thing. The issue
of Nigerian persecution. So you have Bill Maher and you
have Nicki Minaj and if you have President Trump all
talking about the persecution of Christians in Nigeria, I don't
think any of us would have predicted that at the
beginning of this year.
Speaker 3 (27:12):
Yeah, let's take our sites to Syria. There's kind of
conflicting reports, but I know that Christians are getting targeted
in Syria as well.
Speaker 2 (27:24):
What can you tell us there?
Speaker 8 (27:25):
Well, the Syrian government, the new Syrian government now almost
a year old, a year since the fall of Bashir
al Asad, they're in Syria. What they have said to
the rest of the world is we want religious freedom.
We want a Syria that is safe for every religion.
We know that there are Syrians who are Christians and
then there are Syrians who are Drews and there are
(27:46):
Syrians who are Muslim and.
Speaker 6 (27:47):
We want to all live together in peace.
Speaker 8 (27:50):
And the rest of the world here's that, and we're like, yes,
that's great, we want that too. What they're saying though,
inside Syria is very different, and we have had contact
Syrian pastors.
Speaker 6 (28:01):
Who have are hearing from the government or hearing from
the soldiers.
Speaker 8 (28:05):
You Christians just you wait, wait, till we get our
feet on the ground, Wait till we get our government established,
then we're going to take care of you. So what
they're telling the rest of the world the Syrian government
is not what they're telling Christians living inside Syria and
Christians there are understandably very concerned. If you're a father
or a mother and you have young children in Syria
(28:26):
and you're a Christian right now, you're asking yourself every
single day is it safe for our children? Is it
safe to raise our children here? Or should we try
to go somewhere else. That's a huge challenge and that's
just reality of following Christ right now in Syria.
Speaker 3 (28:41):
Well that's a thank you for that update, And you
know it occurs to me and you guys. Kind of
flag this for us is that during the Christmas season,
persecution of Christians actually increases. So you know, for our
audience listening, what do they need to know about that,
Why is that a thing?
Speaker 2 (28:59):
And what can they do to help?
Speaker 8 (29:01):
Well, if you hate Christians, if you hate the Gospel,
what better time to make a statement like that than
on the day Christians are celebrating.
Speaker 6 (29:10):
The birth of Christ.
Speaker 8 (29:10):
So Christians have been targeted in recent years in Democratic
Republic of the Congo, in Bangladesh, in Nigeria, in Egypt.
And so we want Christians here in America. As you
gather around the table, as you are with your family,
as you're with your loved ones, we hope that you'll
remember to pray for Christians who live in hostil aarias
(29:31):
and restricted nations. They are at more risk around the
Christmas season, more risk around Christian Holy Days. And so
as we gather together in safety, let's pray for the
members of our spiritual family who don't have that safety
and just pray that God will protect them and during
this Christmas season.
Speaker 3 (29:50):
Yeah, and we have a URL here as well that
I want to make sure we put up and vom
dot org slash Charlie vom dot org slash Charlie. So
if you want to be a voice for religious freedom,
if you want to stand with your brothers and sisters
(30:11):
in Christ around the globe that are facing persecution and
in some cases genocide, please please please this Christmas season
when they need you the most, consider being a part
of what Voice of the Martyrs is doing.
Speaker 2 (30:23):
We love this organization, we love what they're doing. And Todd,
I just you know.
Speaker 3 (30:28):
Really really appreciate you highlighting these areas of the world
where we need to be praying. We should be praying
for the persecuted church. We should be doing what we
can to contribute financially, especially right now.
Speaker 2 (30:40):
And you know, final words to you, Todd, Well.
Speaker 8 (30:44):
When you come to that website, we'd love to send
you a free book that has stories of persecuted Christians.
And this is a way to be inspired all year
long as you read the stories of people who would
rather go to prison, or rather be beaten, or rather
be killed then deny their faith in Christ. I think
there's great lessons and great inspiration for all of us
(31:05):
who are Christians in these stories.
Speaker 3 (31:07):
That is vom dot org slash Charlie to get involved
to help out.
Speaker 2 (31:12):
Thank you so much, Todd, God bless you.
Speaker 6 (31:14):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
Good conversation is about showing respect.
Speaker 3 (31:20):
It's how we create a space where people are able
to share their ideas and to be heard. Charlie knew
that TikTok has always strived to build that kind of
place that thrives unrespectful connection, where curiosity fuels connection and
we can share what's on our minds and learn from
each other. When ideas meet respect, good things happen.
Speaker 2 (31:39):
On TikTok.
Speaker 3 (31:40):
You can find a mechanic explaining the why behind a
problem most of us wouldn't even know how to name,
or a father sharing a lifetime of knowledge with his viewers.
Viewers who listen, discuss and respond. TikTok turns connection into
community through small acts of understanding. You can feel it
in the comments in the thank you from a stranger.
Speaker 2 (31:59):
Halfway across the world.
Speaker 3 (32:00):
World TikTok is a place where respect opens the door
for discussion, and discussion helps us build something.
Speaker 2 (32:06):
Real.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
Portions of our program are sponsored in part by TikTok.
Speaker 2 (32:12):
What is the I mean?
Speaker 3 (32:13):
So we're talking about persecution all over sort of the
developing world Asia, Central Asia, Africa, the Middle East certainly,
what's the state of Christendom in Europe in the UK?
Speaker 4 (32:27):
Well, I guess it's post Christendom. And you could say,
maybe the story of Europe in the twentieth century, maybe
even the nineteenth centuries, how to put Humpty Dumpty back
together again after the fall of Christendom, look after the
fall of the Holy Roman Empire. And you could think
of even the European Union as an attempt to come
up with some sort of secular sequel to Christendom, like
(32:50):
a way of trying to, you know, bind Europe together
into us, a single collective entity. But I remember back
in two thousand and four five when they were trying
to push through a constitution on the EU, there was
an attempt made to make reference to just the Christian
and Jewish inheritance of Europe, as well as the Hellenic
and Enlightenment ones, and there was a huge political battle
(33:10):
over it, and in the end they said, nope, we're
not making any mention of it at all. So that's
the sort of broad context across Europe, you might say.
In Britain itself, you know, there's evidence, I think some
evidence that there's been a quiet revival over the last
five years, big spikes in Bible buying, big spikes in
commitment to God at least some kind of spirituality. So
(33:33):
there is some interesting, interesting science. But broadly speaking, the
institutional church, the Church of England, has chronically failed Christians
in Britain, for in England for many, many years now
on all of the really sort of hot button political issues.
It's taken aside. Now, you know, that's not something that
(33:55):
the church should should really be doing it, certainly shouldn't
be doing it as aggressively as it has been doing it.
I was saying to somebody the other day that actually,
you know, the bishops in the House of Lords are
voting more often against the Conservative government than.
Speaker 6 (34:07):
The Labor Party.
Speaker 4 (34:09):
My friend, my friend Ed West calls Britain. He says,
were with the world's only left wing theocracy.
Speaker 2 (34:16):
Jeez, that's a bad that's a bad recipe.
Speaker 3 (34:19):
Anyway, So the final final segment here, we only got
about two minutes left. You're going to be at Amfest.
What does a British Man do surrounded by tens of
thousands of conservative America.
Speaker 4 (34:33):
Well, actually, you know what, I've had some practice because
I was at Charlie's memorial. I managed to make it
over in time from England, and that was if it's
anything like that, I'm deaf really looking forward to Amfest
and Charlie invited me back in August and I just
assumed that it wouldn't happen, and I but it did.
I'm just thrilled to be here. And I remember saying
(34:53):
what is amfirst, and he explained to me what it was,
and then I said well, well, you want me to speak,
what do you want me to say? He said, I know,
I know exactly what you're going to say. Say, don't worry,
I'll uh, I'll tell I'll tell you exactly what to say.
Speaker 2 (35:04):
I'll write your speech for you.
Speaker 4 (35:05):
And and I never followed up with him, So but
I'm just thrilled to be here and I hope I
can honor him on stage and and and honor him
with the various debates that I'm I'm privileged to be moderating.
So yeah, I can't can't wait. We don't do that
kind of thing in England. And yeah, to just and
yet yeah, maybe this is something we could we could
bring over. But yeah, the energy, the momentum, the sense
of excitement that the vision that's just holding the movement
(35:26):
together is just or inspiring. And it's just great for
us to bring back, as I've said before, bring back
some coerkchews to to Britain.
Speaker 3 (35:34):
Well, and and you're gonna have reform fests, that's gonna
be And then you're gonna you're gonna have in your
Mentee is gonna be there.
Speaker 2 (35:43):
He's gonna be finishing up. He's gonna be.
Speaker 3 (35:47):
Finishing he's gonna be the final speaker on Sunday, and
of course I mean JD.
Speaker 2 (35:51):
Vance.
Speaker 3 (35:51):
There's a bit of an insight, Jo, Well, it's not
an insight. It's been published, but uh, an unfortunate headline
about your relationship with JD Advance Vice President Jade Vance.
Who's amazing. He's gonna be We're grateful to have him
on the on the Sunday.
Speaker 4 (36:07):
So it would be a great, great climax to a
fantastic event.
Speaker 3 (36:10):
Yeah, it's it's truly truly gonna be something. And you'll
see the rowdiness and the different different ideas and the
different factions and facets of the conservative movement, but this
is what it's all about, bringing everybody together and let's
have the debates, but let's be unified and let's let's
kick off our push into twenty twenty six on a
high note. And that would there's no better way to
(36:31):
do that than to remember the incredible legacy of Charlie Kirk.
Speaker 2 (36:34):
And so we're looking forward to it.
Speaker 3 (36:36):
It's gonna be a bittersweet, but Charlie would want us
to make the most of it.
Speaker 2 (36:40):
Thank you, doctor her great to be with you.
Speaker 7 (36:42):
Bet for more on many of these stories and news
you can trust, go to Charliekirk dot com
My name is Charlie Kirk. I run the largest pro
American student organization in the country, fighting for the future
of our republic. My call is to fight evil and
to proclaim truth. If the most important thing for you
is just feeling good, you're gonna end up miserable. But
if the most important thing is doing good, you'll end
up purposeful. College is a scam, everybody. You got to
(00:26):
stop sending your kids to college. You should get married
as young as possible and have as many kids as possible.
Go start at turning point you would say college chapter.
Go start attning point youould say high school chapter. Go
find out how your church can get involved.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Sign up and become an activist.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
I gave my life to the Lord in fifth grade,
most important decision I ever made in my life, and
I encourage you to do the same.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
Here I am Lord, Use me.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Buckle up, everybody, Here we go. The Charlie Kirk Show
is proudly sponsored by Preserved Gold, leading gold and silver
experts and the only precious metals company I recommend to
my family, friends and viewers.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
All right, welcome to our to the Charlie Kirk Show.
I'm Andrew Colett, Blake neft to my left.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
Affected switch sides on the table, and the reason being
is that in studio we have the great doctor James
or pleasure to have you, sir.
Speaker 4 (01:22):
Great to be with you, Andrew, great to be with you.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
Blake.
Speaker 3 (01:25):
Well, it's it's always a treat. You know, some of
my best, most favorite last memories with Charlie you happen
to be a part of as well, and and so
that is really close to my heart and I know
to yours as well, and I'm glad we had that time.
And then you came back afterwards, and I know you've
(01:47):
made some trips to Phoenix and you're gonna be joining
us for Amfest. So I think we're all excited you're
actually gonna be moderating some discussions.
Speaker 4 (01:54):
So I believe I've any just just found this out,
maybe a few days acause well, I'm really excited we've
all in. I think I've got three debates to moderate,
including some pretty neuralgic difficult topics. I think there's one
on one on God. You don't get harder than that,
and there's one on Israel. And I think they thought, well,
(02:15):
who are going to give the hospital pass to let's
let's send it to the brit Who cares if he
plays up?
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3 (02:21):
It's not like you have your own reputation to worry
about here, doctor, or you of course are very.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Active with reform in the UK. How things gone over there?
Speaker 4 (02:32):
Things are going extremely well. In fact, in many ways
there isn't really a historical precedent for how well reformed
UK is doing well. What we're witnessing is really the
emergence for the first time in the history of British politics,
a new party of the right that is credible, that
has increasingly well, very strong popular support. I think we've
(02:53):
been leading at about a one hundred and sixty polls
poll after poll. We've made some amazing incursions electorally back
in May sweat the local elections. Looks like we're going
to do extremely well in Wales and in Scotland. So
the energy is extraordinary. The moment where we're sometimes polling
(03:14):
higher than the combined polling of the Labor Party and
the Conservative Party, the two historic parts.
Speaker 5 (03:19):
I want to highlight that that they've had a few
different parties towards the left end of the politic. They
used to have the Liberals and they're still around, but
they're small and they got replaced by Labor. But the Conservatives,
and before them the Tories, they're olders. In America, there
was a I believe it was a Tory prime minister
when the American Revolution were absolutely and they've been the
party of government typically in Britain for three hundred years,
(03:43):
and it might all go down in flames.
Speaker 3 (03:45):
Well, and you know, are we still a first question,
what's the animating factor?
Speaker 4 (03:51):
Well, I think for the one in very important animating
factor was a negative one, namely just the routine betrayal
and competence of successive laboring Tory governments over certainly over
the last twenty five years, over the Tory period. You know,
the Conservatives let in in the last in their last
(04:12):
parliament from sort of twenty nineteen to twenty twenty four,
more legal and illegal migrants than we've seen in our history.
Why well, all sorts of complicated reasons behind it. But
I think part of the problem was a belief in
the dogma of the Treasury that the British economy will
(04:33):
collapse if we don't keep the Ponzi scheme going, if
we don't keep bringing in hundreds of thousands, indeed millions.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
Of people to help to help prop up the prop.
Speaker 4 (04:41):
Up the economy and do the jobs that Brits don't
want to do. It's the same old story.
Speaker 5 (04:46):
Well so appalling just because you did the Biden wave
of except they call it Boris way of there and
it was I think higher than Biden's level of immigration
when you adjusted for the cybluation, untry and with a
right wing government. They've had only right of cen governments
in the UK until Starmar from twenty ten to last year,
and they did the full open borderspiel from the right.
Speaker 4 (05:08):
That's exactly right, and so that's I think that's the
first thing that's really driving support for US because reform
has been very very clear on migration from the very beginning.
It's very clear on the fiscal suicide of net zero
and the need to get some energy independence and energy sovereignty.
It's been very clear on questions.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
Of free speech.
Speaker 4 (05:29):
We had the passing of the Online Safety Act just
just a few months ago, and this is this is
really a censorship charter, using the wedge of trying to
get some statutory protection for children online, but folded into
that enormous piece of legislation was effectively at measures and
tools that equip our offcom our media regulator with enormous
(05:54):
powers to censor, and even substack is now having to
censor certain articles to apply with the legislation.
Speaker 5 (06:01):
I think even I think even x anounced today that
they just said some of our material is going to
have to be taken down in Europe and you have
to watch out for what you post, because.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
Well, you're all in. But we can't defy these last
just yet.
Speaker 4 (06:13):
The European Union is developing its own kind of censorship
chafter that is even more draconian, and it's it's you know,
it's extraordinary what's happening. And so we're very committed to
getting free speech right if we ever got got got
got into power, and it's quite straightforward to do it.
There's just just a few provisions and a few acts
(06:34):
here and there that need to be amended or clarified
or simply repealed, and that could have an enormous downstream
effect on the culture of freedom.
Speaker 5 (06:43):
You guys are so largely in Britain, they just have
supremacy of parliament. They can essentially just if you have
a majority, you can pass any law you want on anything,
but I want to on the free speech thing. H
Can you talk about the islamophobia definition that's been going
on in the past couple of days.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
That's another Yeah.
Speaker 4 (07:00):
So this has been a long running debate in the
public square over the last few years in Britain, and
there's been a big push on the left and now
with the Labor Party, which has an enormous majority in
the House of Commons, to effectively legislate a different definition
and protect or rather protect any anyone who feels themselves
(07:20):
to be a victim of Islamophobia. And so there's been
a lot of back and forth and actually Parliament has
been working very well, has been excellent Tory MPs who've
been getting up and pointing out just whatdd an incursion
on freedom of speech and freedom of religion this definition
would be because effectively, what they're trying to do is
to allied sort of beliefs with identity. And so the
(07:44):
thought is that you know, to be a Muslim is
to have is to have a particular identity, rather than
to have that identity and virtue of subscribing to a
set of set of beliefs, beliefs that plainly can be
criticized in any freedomocracy, and indeed and should be criticized,
should be open to criticism. But so the government's back
down is trying to tweak the definition and now it's
something like anti Muslim, anti Muslim hatred or anti Muslim. Yeah,
(08:08):
I think it's anti Muslim hatred. And the problem with
that is it just you know, it just bakes in
the problem.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
If they have an anti white hatred.
Speaker 4 (08:17):
They technically yes, policy technically yes, I mean there is
all of this sort of exists under the equality legislation,
but this would be a special provision to be a
special protection.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
Which where they're.
Speaker 4 (08:28):
Trying to say by shifting to anti Muslim hate as
opposed to Islamophobia, we've kind of solved the problem, but
we don't, because again the assumption is there that's somehow
to be a Muslim is to be a member of
a race or to be a member of an ethnic group,
which plainly you're not. You're a Muslim just if you
can do the Shahada three times or whatever it might be,
you could the three of us could become Muslims on
(08:49):
the next half hour. It's completely nothing to do with
our ethnicity or race.
Speaker 5 (08:52):
I'm looking at the latest draft definition and it includes
as something that would be banned the prejudicial stereotyping and
racialization of muslim to stir up hatred against them. That
just strikes me as an incredibly broad stereotyping of Muslims.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
To say there's a.
Speaker 5 (09:08):
Common trait that a lot of Muslims have.
Speaker 4 (09:11):
Well, I think that what you would have to say
to speak to a trait that a lot of Muslims
have is you'd have to pick out some doctrinal commitment,
you know, some belief that should be contestable in a
free democracy. It's not. There's nothing distinctive ethnically or racially
distinctive about being Muslim. As we said, it's simply whether
(09:32):
or not you sign up to a belief system. And
so what it's doing is it's protecting that belief system,
protecting the identity that you have in virtue of signing
up to the belief.
Speaker 5 (09:41):
It's an ideological belief. And then you say you can't
stereotype a belief system, well what is?
Speaker 2 (09:46):
What is it?
Speaker 6 (09:47):
Then?
Speaker 3 (09:47):
Well, yeah, but what about you know, genital mutilation of
young girls. That tends to be something that happens in
Muslim African nations. What about the grooming gangs you know
that tend to be centralized within a particular immigrant group
that happened to be Muslims. So then all this stuff,
(10:08):
all of a sudden, these get very sticky.
Speaker 4 (10:09):
Yes, these topics, absolutely right. I mean what's interesting about
that is that ironically, this legislation could make people think
that criticism about grooming gangs or criticism about female genital
mutilation is something somehow a widespread shared is Islamic belief,
but it's not. It's actually you know, certainly the grooming
(10:29):
gangs come from very particular area of Pakistan, and FGM
is localized in parts of Sub Saharan Africa.
Speaker 7 (10:37):
This is Lane Schoenberger, chief investment Officer and founding partner
of y REFI. It has been an honor and a
privilege to partner with Turning Point and for Charlie to
endorse us. His endorsement means the world to us, and
we look forward to continuing our partnership with Turning Point
for years to come. Now hear Charlie in his own words,
tell you about why REFI.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
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Speaker 2 (11:46):
So tell us establish yourself your bona fides. What do
you do? Who are you?
Speaker 4 (11:50):
Well, my main job vacation is in academia, so I'm
an associate professor of philosophy religion at Cambridge in England
where I teach undergraduates. I teach graduates students PhD students,
so I love doing that, but I have another day
job now, where as senior advisor to Nigel Farage, Leader
Reform UK, and and we are all expecting our next
(12:11):
prime minister and twenty twenty nine, well, twenty million nine
is the latest that the election can be called, and
I'm not sure the country can last that long, but
it's possible that the government will fall before that. We're
good at getting very good at getting rid of prime ministers.
Getting rid of governments is a lot harder. Yeah, Okay,
Turkeys don't vote for Christmas, which you have to vote
(12:32):
for the government to fall, even if they hate the
head Turkey. Yeah, yeah, exactly, we do do.
Speaker 3 (12:39):
We do Turkey at Christmas too, but it's more of
a thanks. I don't know, all right, No, stra damis
or when would you predict that we're actually going to
be able to vote again in the UK? Is it
going to be twenty twenty nine or you predict before?
Speaker 4 (12:53):
Well, I mean the first thing to say is that
we've got what Nigel is calling our mid terms sort
of an American phrase, but we have got a big
set of regional local devolved elections next May, so the
whole of Wales gets to vote for its local parliament.
Same in Scotland. And then there's thousands of seats around
Greater London and all around England that are going to
(13:15):
be up for grabs, and we're expecting a turquoise tsunami.
We're expecting a reform UK to do extremely well in
all of those elections, and that will be the last
time that the British people get to express their democratic
will before the next general election. The latest that can
be constitutionally is the first week of August twenty twenty nine,
and it could be that Kirstarmer many people don't think
he's going to be Prime Minister for that much longer,
(13:36):
but whatever whoever, his success would have until the first
week of August twenty twenty nine. But it could be
that something happens before that. We're expecting a recession, we're
expecting perhaps a very tight credit squeeze before twenty twenty nine,
so it's not impossible that we'd be looking at a
general election twenty twenty seven. I think I'm probably more
(13:59):
inclined to say it's going to be twenty twenty nine.
I think the last one hundred years the British government's
fallen maybe once. You know, when you change Prime Minister,
you don't change the British government. You just change the
leader of the party who's got the majority in Parliament.
Speaker 5 (14:12):
And it just seems to me, I can't figure out
why Labor would call an election just to get killed
the whole power.
Speaker 4 (14:19):
While you have it exactly as they said earlier. You know,
Turkeys don't vote for Christmas, even if they hate their
head Turkey, which they do. And indeed, the whole of
the British left is the Turkey, the whole pretty bland definitely.
But yeah, the whole of the British left now is
really cannibalizing itself. It's it's splintering off into all kinds
of different movements. We've seen for the first time ever,
(14:40):
really the Green Party now getting into well into double
digits in the polls.
Speaker 5 (14:44):
Could we get Green versus reform as it's not unthinkable, it's.
Speaker 3 (14:48):
Not on especially what we have in the United States,
Maga versus Mandani, right.
Speaker 4 (14:54):
Yeah, I mean so it's very very interesting seeing the
parallels between somebody like Mandani and Zach Polanski, who is
this the new leader of the Green Party, and it's
growing very very fast as a party.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
It's easy.
Speaker 4 (15:07):
I think you only paid like five pounds to get in,
so it probably be quite easy to to do some
entryism and maybe hijack the Green Party. But as far
as we're concerned, it's it's it's fantastic. You know, may
may many flowers on the British left bloom because it's
basically fracturing the vote between you know, you've got you know,
sort of the focus on well, I mean, there are
(15:30):
focus on the crescent, you might say, there's that, there's
a focus on the rainbow, there's a focus on the.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
Star with the old socialists.
Speaker 4 (15:36):
So it's this is not going to not get to
work out well, and and the cracks are emerging. The
Parliamentary Labor Party is very welfareist, very very statist. Starmer
tried to get a tiny little haircut five billion pounds
off our ballooning three hundred billion pounds a year welfare
(15:57):
bill and he couldn't get it through even though he
had a majority in Parliament of about one hundred and
seventy five seats. So and then that's the most, you know,
just just a very very tiny, very very small exercise
of kind of restraining our public expenditure. So yeah, things
things are not looking good on that side of on
(16:17):
that on that side of British politics, and on the right, yes,
that they're supposed to. So they're also figures popping up.
There's a Tommy Robinson's groupe at Low's, there's ben Hepbeves.
It's really interesting figures on the right. So it's not
like we're completely unified, but that's where the energy is.
I think there's a feeling that that's where the policy
energy is, that's where the people are, it's where the
(16:39):
best ideas are fizzing on the right.
Speaker 5 (16:41):
So we just discussed with Steve Dais and our last
guest about the recurring Republican problem of elect people to
restrict immigration or do other bold things, and they just
get these feed of Clay in office. So I suppose
one obvious concern is reform wins the landslide twenty seven
or twenty nine. Do they have the stone to go
through with a big immigration cutback or moratorium or are
(17:04):
there big sweeping things or is there going to be
a lot of are people going to worse out at
the at the brink.
Speaker 4 (17:10):
Yeah, somebody told me, I think it was about a
year ago that the process, there's a name for that process,
what happens to you as you go in and the
melonification malonification, which I think actually in retrospect is probably
unfair to Georgia and Maloney who is reputed to have
come in with talking tough on migration and then actually
folded as soon as she as soon as she got in.
But actually I think if you look at her numbers,
what she's done, her track record, it's been pretty impressive.
(17:33):
So it's going to be very, very challenging. We're going
to be up against one of them, you know, one
of the most effective blobs as it were, as you
call it in England in the world, is enormous inertia,
huge resistance probably to almost all of our program despite
we're having widespread popular support across all the different parties
getting regaining control of our borders. So it's going to
(17:55):
be extremely difficult. We're going to be up against the
judicial industrial complex, the human rights.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
I'm very fascinated.
Speaker 3 (18:03):
That was actually my question about legally, what are you
guys going to because we trump gets stopped at every judge,
every district judge with a gavel in a robe, and
I can only imagine, just knowing the nature somewhat of
the English intelligensia, that you're going to be up against
a real stiff fight.
Speaker 1 (18:24):
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There are new ones popping up all the time, But
the truth is there's only one that boldly stands in
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Speaker 3 (18:39):
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Called nine seven two Patriot today, or go to Patriotmobile
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Or call nine seven two Patriot and make the switch today.
Speaker 3 (19:45):
We've got a full house here, doctor James or, Blake
Nef myself, and we're about to bring in one more.
Joining us now is Todd Nettleton, author of When Faith
Is Forbidden. He's also the voice of the Martyrs radio
host Todd Welcome to the show.
Speaker 6 (20:01):
Thanks so much. Good to be with you.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
Yeah, honored to be with you.
Speaker 3 (20:05):
You're also joined by doctor James Or from Cambridge and
this is an issue near and dear to his heart
as well. So we're going to have a fun, well
not of fun. It's a serious and important conversation. You
have been traveling around interviewing persecuted Christians in South Asia,
and I think a lot of people a lot of
discussion right now is about Nigeria. This is kind of
(20:26):
if you're going to talk about this topic, that's where
you're focused on. But you know there are other areas
of the world that we need to be aware of
where Christians are being persecuted actively. Right now, please tell
us about some of your stories out of South Asia.
Speaker 8 (20:39):
Yeah, one of the things we heard repeatedly in South
Asia was stories of Christians being affected by the anti
conversion laws in India. So multiple states now twelve states
in India have past laws that make it illegal to
change your religion and illegal to encourage someone else to.
Speaker 6 (20:57):
Change their religion.
Speaker 8 (20:59):
So right now there are dozens of pastors in prison
under these anti conversion laws. And one of the interesting
things is the inducement, the idea of inducing someone to
change their faith is illegal. We actually had an interview
and we've aired it now on Voice the Martist Radio
with a human rights attorney who is talking about if
(21:19):
you set up donuts and coffee before your church service,
the government can come in and say, hey, that's an
illegal inducement. You're giving donuts and coffee away, You're tricking
people into changing their religion. That's the kind of silliness
that these laws are based on. Here's the other thing, though,
it is not illegal to reconvert someone to Hinduism. In fact,
(21:41):
an Indian member of parliament just in the last few
weeks has presided over what they call a reconversion ceremony,
reconverting people back to Hinduism.
Speaker 6 (21:50):
They can do that by force.
Speaker 8 (21:52):
But if a Christian invites you to church, if the
Christian gives you donuts and coffee, that's an illegal inducement
to change your religion.
Speaker 2 (22:00):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (22:01):
So twelve states had to look this up. There's twenty
eight states in India, so we're at nearly half of
the country of India. It is now legal And I
don't know population, you know, at what percentage of the
population that would make up, But that that is striking,
especially for a British former British run colony, if you will.
Speaker 2 (22:21):
But so.
Speaker 3 (22:24):
When did that start changing? I'm curious when did that
those laws start passing.
Speaker 6 (22:28):
Well, they really took a lot of momentum.
Speaker 8 (22:31):
When Prime Minister Modi, who has come out of this
Hindu nationalist movement called the RSS.
Speaker 6 (22:38):
That is his background.
Speaker 8 (22:39):
He's the Prime Minister of the whole country of India
and so he has brought that philosophy to.
Speaker 6 (22:44):
The highest levels of the Indian government.
Speaker 8 (22:46):
Now they have talked about a national anti conversion law.
So far that has not happened, but there are individual
states where they have passed these anti conversion laws.
Speaker 6 (22:56):
And you know, when they talk about.
Speaker 8 (22:57):
It, it sounds like a good idea, like, hey, we
don't want people to be bribed or forced to change
their religion. And I think all of us would say, yeah,
that's true, we don't want that. But then, like I say,
when you get to what the law actually says, and
some of the laws, there's one state that says, if
you want to change your religion, you need to go
before a magistrate and say that you're going to change
(23:19):
your religion. And if you want to talk to someone
else about changing their religion what us Christians would call evangelism,
you need to go before a magistrate six months before
you have that conversation, and you need to appear and say, hey,
in six months, I'm going to talk to my neighbor
about coming to church with me.
Speaker 6 (23:37):
I just want to get your okay, mister magistrate. And
it's like you read that and you're like that that's ludicrous.
No one could do that, No one would do that. Yes, exactly.
Speaker 8 (23:46):
So when you have that conversation, then they can come
in and say, well, hey, six months ago you didn't
go to the magistrate.
Speaker 6 (23:51):
That was illegal. You're going off to jail.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
You've you know.
Speaker 3 (23:56):
It kind of makes me think of this story that's
kind of percolating and we haven't talked about it yet,
but Rep. Mark Warren Walker from North Carolina, he's a
Trump's nominee for religious freedom and he's just been waiting
for a committee hearing, so we can't seem to get
that through. He's getting blocked apparently by a political form
of political foe. But these are the types of stories
(24:18):
we need to be educated on about why those types
of posts are so important within the Trump administration.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
Let's kind of keep going around the map here.
Speaker 3 (24:28):
So we talked about South Asia, there's issues in Central Asia,
and there's obviously Nigeria. Highlight the stories that you think
are our audience needs to hear most well.
Speaker 8 (24:39):
I think of Nigeria obviously it's in the news. Just
on Sunday there was another raid on a church. Thirteen
Christians kidnapped out.
Speaker 6 (24:48):
Of their church.
Speaker 8 (24:49):
Right now, we don't know was this Boko Haram, was
this isis West Africa Province. Wasn't just a criminal gang
that wants ransom. They're trying to fundraise and so their
kid napping people for ransom.
Speaker 6 (25:01):
Right now, we don't know that.
Speaker 8 (25:03):
But this is happening again and again and again, and
I think at some point you start to ask the question, well,
is the Nigerian government incapable of stopping these kinds of
attacks or do they not have the will to stop
these kinds of attacks?
Speaker 6 (25:17):
And those are valid questions.
Speaker 8 (25:20):
Since President Trump named Nigeria as a Country of Particular
Concern earlier this year, it's going to be really interesting
to see how the State Department plays that out and
what tools are brought to bear to help Nigeria. Again, typically,
it's not the government of Nigeria that is persecuted Christians,
it is these terrorist groups, It is Islamis from among
(25:40):
the Fulani tribe, it is other sort of smaller players.
Speaker 6 (25:44):
So it's going to be interesting.
Speaker 8 (25:46):
To see how that CPC status plays out and how
the State Department sort of acts that out in our
relationship with Nigeria well.
Speaker 3 (25:54):
And one of the more surprising things. I don't know
if you've heard this story, doctor or but Nikki Nase
of all people, has been helping raise awareness. You can
throw up two sixty two. She's been She have a
keynote remark on combating religious violence and the killing of
Christians in Nigeria. She's been working, willing to work with
(26:15):
the Trump administration to raise awareness on this. I mean,
this is a I have to say. I've not traditionally
been a fan of the rapper known as Nicki Minaj,
but I mean, what good for her? How many Christians
have been silent, how many conservatives have been silent about
the persecution of the Christian Church in Nigeria, the slaughter
(26:37):
of Christians? And then Nicki Minaj comes here and she
helps make it a national news story, an international news story.
It already was one, but raising the profile of that story.
Have you seen movement even at Voice of the Martyrs
since she's gotten involved.
Speaker 8 (26:52):
Oh, it is interesting to have other voices that you
weren't expecting. Bill Maher did the same thing. The issue
of Nigerian persecution. So you have Bill Maher and you
have Nicki Minaj and if you have President Trump all
talking about the persecution of Christians in Nigeria, I don't
think any of us would have predicted that at the
beginning of this year.
Speaker 3 (27:12):
Yeah, let's take our sites to Syria. There's kind of
conflicting reports, but I know that Christians are getting targeted
in Syria as well.
Speaker 2 (27:24):
What can you tell us there?
Speaker 8 (27:25):
Well, the Syrian government, the new Syrian government now almost
a year old, a year since the fall of Bashir
al Asad, they're in Syria. What they have said to
the rest of the world is we want religious freedom.
We want a Syria that is safe for every religion.
We know that there are Syrians who are Christians and
then there are Syrians who are Drews and there are
(27:46):
Syrians who are Muslim and.
Speaker 6 (27:47):
We want to all live together in peace.
Speaker 8 (27:50):
And the rest of the world here's that, and we're like, yes,
that's great, we want that too. What they're saying though,
inside Syria is very different, and we have had contact
Syrian pastors.
Speaker 6 (28:01):
Who have are hearing from the government or hearing from
the soldiers.
Speaker 8 (28:05):
You Christians just you wait, wait, till we get our
feet on the ground, Wait till we get our government established,
then we're going to take care of you. So what
they're telling the rest of the world the Syrian government
is not what they're telling Christians living inside Syria and
Christians there are understandably very concerned. If you're a father
or a mother and you have young children in Syria
(28:26):
and you're a Christian right now, you're asking yourself every
single day is it safe for our children? Is it
safe to raise our children here? Or should we try
to go somewhere else. That's a huge challenge and that's
just reality of following Christ right now in Syria.
Speaker 3 (28:41):
Well that's a thank you for that update, And you
know it occurs to me and you guys. Kind of
flag this for us is that during the Christmas season,
persecution of Christians actually increases. So you know, for our
audience listening, what do they need to know about that,
Why is that a thing?
Speaker 2 (28:59):
And what can they do to help?
Speaker 8 (29:01):
Well, if you hate Christians, if you hate the Gospel,
what better time to make a statement like that than
on the day Christians are celebrating.
Speaker 6 (29:10):
The birth of Christ.
Speaker 8 (29:10):
So Christians have been targeted in recent years in Democratic
Republic of the Congo, in Bangladesh, in Nigeria, in Egypt.
And so we want Christians here in America. As you
gather around the table, as you are with your family,
as you're with your loved ones, we hope that you'll
remember to pray for Christians who live in hostil aarias
(29:31):
and restricted nations. They are at more risk around the
Christmas season, more risk around Christian Holy Days. And so
as we gather together in safety, let's pray for the
members of our spiritual family who don't have that safety
and just pray that God will protect them and during
this Christmas season.
Speaker 3 (29:50):
Yeah, and we have a URL here as well that
I want to make sure we put up and vom
dot org slash Charlie vom dot org slash Charlie. So
if you want to be a voice for religious freedom,
if you want to stand with your brothers and sisters
(30:11):
in Christ around the globe that are facing persecution and
in some cases genocide, please please please this Christmas season
when they need you the most, consider being a part
of what Voice of the Martyrs is doing.
Speaker 2 (30:23):
We love this organization, we love what they're doing. And Todd,
I just you know.
Speaker 3 (30:28):
Really really appreciate you highlighting these areas of the world
where we need to be praying. We should be praying
for the persecuted church. We should be doing what we
can to contribute financially, especially right now.
Speaker 2 (30:40):
And you know, final words to you, Todd, Well.
Speaker 8 (30:44):
When you come to that website, we'd love to send
you a free book that has stories of persecuted Christians.
And this is a way to be inspired all year
long as you read the stories of people who would
rather go to prison, or rather be beaten, or rather
be killed then deny their faith in Christ. I think
there's great lessons and great inspiration for all of us
(31:05):
who are Christians in these stories.
Speaker 3 (31:07):
That is vom dot org slash Charlie to get involved
to help out.
Speaker 2 (31:12):
Thank you so much, Todd, God bless you.
Speaker 6 (31:14):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
Good conversation is about showing respect.
Speaker 3 (31:20):
It's how we create a space where people are able
to share their ideas and to be heard. Charlie knew
that TikTok has always strived to build that kind of
place that thrives unrespectful connection, where curiosity fuels connection and
we can share what's on our minds and learn from
each other. When ideas meet respect, good things happen.
Speaker 2 (31:39):
On TikTok.
Speaker 3 (31:40):
You can find a mechanic explaining the why behind a
problem most of us wouldn't even know how to name,
or a father sharing a lifetime of knowledge with his viewers.
Viewers who listen, discuss and respond. TikTok turns connection into
community through small acts of understanding. You can feel it
in the comments in the thank you from a stranger.
Speaker 2 (31:59):
Halfway across the world.
Speaker 3 (32:00):
World TikTok is a place where respect opens the door
for discussion, and discussion helps us build something.
Speaker 2 (32:06):
Real.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
Portions of our program are sponsored in part by TikTok.
Speaker 2 (32:12):
What is the I mean?
Speaker 3 (32:13):
So we're talking about persecution all over sort of the
developing world Asia, Central Asia, Africa, the Middle East certainly,
what's the state of Christendom in Europe in the UK?
Speaker 4 (32:27):
Well, I guess it's post Christendom. And you could say,
maybe the story of Europe in the twentieth century, maybe
even the nineteenth centuries, how to put Humpty Dumpty back
together again after the fall of Christendom, look after the
fall of the Holy Roman Empire. And you could think
of even the European Union as an attempt to come
up with some sort of secular sequel to Christendom, like
(32:50):
a way of trying to, you know, bind Europe together
into us, a single collective entity. But I remember back
in two thousand and four five when they were trying
to push through a constitution on the EU, there was
an attempt made to make reference to just the Christian
and Jewish inheritance of Europe, as well as the Hellenic
and Enlightenment ones, and there was a huge political battle
(33:10):
over it, and in the end they said, nope, we're
not making any mention of it at all. So that's
the sort of broad context across Europe, you might say.
In Britain itself, you know, there's evidence, I think some
evidence that there's been a quiet revival over the last
five years, big spikes in Bible buying, big spikes in
commitment to God at least some kind of spirituality. So
(33:33):
there is some interesting, interesting science. But broadly speaking, the
institutional church, the Church of England, has chronically failed Christians
in Britain, for in England for many, many years now
on all of the really sort of hot button political issues.
It's taken aside. Now, you know, that's not something that
(33:55):
the church should should really be doing it, certainly shouldn't
be doing it as aggressively as it has been doing it.
I was saying to somebody the other day that actually,
you know, the bishops in the House of Lords are
voting more often against the Conservative government than.
Speaker 6 (34:07):
The Labor Party.
Speaker 4 (34:09):
My friend, my friend Ed West calls Britain. He says,
were with the world's only left wing theocracy.
Speaker 2 (34:16):
Jeez, that's a bad that's a bad recipe.
Speaker 3 (34:19):
Anyway, So the final final segment here, we only got
about two minutes left. You're going to be at Amfest.
What does a British Man do surrounded by tens of
thousands of conservative America.
Speaker 4 (34:33):
Well, actually, you know what, I've had some practice because
I was at Charlie's memorial. I managed to make it
over in time from England, and that was if it's
anything like that, I'm deaf really looking forward to Amfest
and Charlie invited me back in August and I just
assumed that it wouldn't happen, and I but it did.
I'm just thrilled to be here. And I remember saying
(34:53):
what is amfirst, and he explained to me what it was,
and then I said well, well, you want me to speak,
what do you want me to say? He said, I know,
I know exactly what you're going to say. Say, don't worry,
I'll uh, I'll tell I'll tell you exactly what to say.
Speaker 2 (35:04):
I'll write your speech for you.
Speaker 4 (35:05):
And and I never followed up with him, So but
I'm just thrilled to be here and I hope I
can honor him on stage and and and honor him
with the various debates that I'm I'm privileged to be moderating.
So yeah, I can't can't wait. We don't do that
kind of thing in England. And yeah, to just and
yet yeah, maybe this is something we could we could
bring over. But yeah, the energy, the momentum, the sense
of excitement that the vision that's just holding the movement
(35:26):
together is just or inspiring. And it's just great for
us to bring back, as I've said before, bring back
some coerkchews to to Britain.
Speaker 3 (35:34):
Well, and and you're gonna have reform fests, that's gonna
be And then you're gonna you're gonna have in your
Mentee is gonna be there.
Speaker 2 (35:43):
He's gonna be finishing up. He's gonna be.
Speaker 3 (35:47):
Finishing he's gonna be the final speaker on Sunday, and
of course I mean JD.
Speaker 2 (35:51):
Vance.
Speaker 3 (35:51):
There's a bit of an insight, Jo, Well, it's not
an insight. It's been published, but uh, an unfortunate headline
about your relationship with JD Advance Vice President Jade Vance.
Who's amazing. He's gonna be We're grateful to have him
on the on the Sunday.
Speaker 4 (36:07):
So it would be a great, great climax to a
fantastic event.
Speaker 3 (36:10):
Yeah, it's it's truly truly gonna be something. And you'll
see the rowdiness and the different different ideas and the
different factions and facets of the conservative movement, but this
is what it's all about, bringing everybody together and let's
have the debates, but let's be unified and let's let's
kick off our push into twenty twenty six on a
high note. And that would there's no better way to
(36:31):
do that than to remember the incredible legacy of Charlie Kirk.
Speaker 2 (36:34):
And so we're looking forward to it.
Speaker 3 (36:36):
It's gonna be a bittersweet, but Charlie would want us
to make the most of it.
Speaker 2 (36:40):
Thank you, doctor her great to be with you.
Speaker 7 (36:42):
Bet for more on many of these stories and news
you can trust, go to Charliekirk dot com
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