October 30, 2025 • 36 mins
This is a Vintage Selection from 2005
The Conversation with Chris
The Restaurant Guys talk with Chris Cree, Master of Wine, about the challenges of being among the first to earn that degree and the only person in NJ. Chris talks about running his wine shop and how he educates and encourages the public to dive into the world of wine.
The Conversation with John
The Restaurant Guys speak with chef, wine director, professor and friend John Fischer. Given his many positions including teacher, he is well-experienced in the topic of his book At Your Service which describes how to run a professional dining room. From emergencies to the divide between the front and back of the house, John covers it all.
Bio
Chris Cree is a Master of Wine and one of New Jersey’s most respected wine authorities. With more than four decades in the industry, Chris has worked in nearly every facet of the wine world: from retail and importing to education and consulting. A New Jersey native, he’s the founder of Cree Wine Company in Hampton, where he curates exceptional wines from around the globe and leads tastings that make the world of wine accessible and engaging. Chris continues to champion great producers and demystify fine wine for all who love it.
John Fischer
After graduating Culinary Institute of America, John worked in several prestigious NYC restaurants from The Rainbow Room to Manhattan Ocean Club to Mondrian. He returned to CIA to teach in 2000, wrote his book At Your Service in 2005 and recently retired.
Info
Chris Cree
John’s book
At Your Service: A Hands‑On Guide to the Professional Dining Room
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Francis (00:41):
We're here today with, we have a kind of an overarching
topic, which is careers in therestaurant business, careers in
the food business, careers inthe hospitality business, and
and the wine business.
And we have a couple of.
Professionals, kind of uberprofessionals.
Today we're gonna be talking,uh, first with Chris Cree, who
is a master of wine, which isone of the two.
Uh, the MW degree and the MSdegree are the two degrees that
(01:02):
you can get letters after yourname in the wine business that
matter, not for making wine, butfor actually selling and
servicing and dealing with the,the community.
And, and it's a prettyprestigious degree.
And there are actually very fewof those,
Mark (01:12):
actually only 23 in the United States.
Francis (01:14):
And then we are going to, uh.
Take the next half of the showand we're gonna talk to our
friend John Fisher, who is aprofessor of service and wine up
at the Culinary Institute ofAmerica in, uh, New York State.
And so for the first segment ofthe show, we have on the line, I
hope Chris Cree, master of wine.
Chris, are you there?
Chris (01:31):
I'm here.
Francis (01:32):
How are you?
Are are, are you the master ofwine?
I am.
I'm one of them.
You're well, uh, in, uh, spiritof full disclosure, mark and
Chris and I are old friends.
We go way back.
We have, um, drunk winetogether, uh, in, in many
countries around the world onmany times, and, and always had
a good time doing it.
Absolutely and hopefully learneda thing or two.
Mark (01:49):
We seem to find ourselves in the same circles over and
over again.
Francis (01:52):
Chris, let's get this outta the way.
Why don't you plug your store,which is a pretty interesting
thing, and tell us a little bitabout it.
'cause I think there's somethingto be learned in the very
speaking of it.
Chris (02:00):
Very good.
Yeah.
We have a, a new store.
It's in Bernardsville, NewJersey called 56 Degree Wine.
Francis (02:05):
Why would you call it
Chris (02:06):
that,
Francis (02:06):
Chris?
Chris (02:07):
Imagine that it's, uh, we.
Looked at the proper temperaturefor storage and wines and felt
that that was important enoughthat we would stake our name on
it.
And, uh, we liked 56, betterthan 58, I guess
Speaker 4 (02:19):
it's, but uh,
Chris (02:20):
so we, um, not only that, but we focus really on just
small artisan growers from allover the world.
Wow.
Francis (02:26):
That sounds familiar.
Sounds like.
Mark and Francis.
It does
Chris (02:29):
sound a little familiar, doesn't it?
Francis (02:30):
I thinks why we find ourselves in the same circle,
right?
You're in Verona, you're inVerona walking down the street.
Not Verona, New Jersey.
You're in Verona in Italy,walking down the street and
you're like, Hey, that's Chris.
Well there was that one time atthe White Castle.
Yeah.
Well, no, but you, but you, wefind ourselves in various
countries saying, oh look, it'sChris CRE again.
Turning up on the island, theblock.
Um, so 56 degrees, is your storekept at 56 degrees?
Chris (02:49):
Yeah, we keep the whole store.
Uh, temperature and humidity.
Control does add a littlehumidity jacket.
Don't
Francis (02:53):
you get the sniffles once in a while.
It's cold.
Yeah, we have jacket stuff.
Chris (02:57):
Oh, do you give the jackets to your patrons?
We do.
Well, we don't give them tothem, but I think a few have
walked out with them though,loaned the jackets, we
Francis (03:03):
loan them.
Right.
I think that's a, that's a prizeto be, had to try and go scarf a
a 56 degrees jacket.
Mark (03:08):
We have a couple spots at stage left where we, where we
have some private events and uh,we do the exact same thing where
we keep it nice and cool for thewine and our motto is.
You'll be gone in a couplehours.
The wine will still be here.
The wine lives
Francis (03:20):
here.
We don't change the temperature.
That's, that's absolutely right.
So, um, how do, how are youfinding, just to talk about the
most, uh, banal, uh, and or themost surface things, how do you
find that goes over with yourpatrons and they walk into a
store That's well, quite chilly.
Chris (03:33):
You know, it's, uh, it depends.
In the winter, it's warm inhere.
Yeah.
Francis (03:36):
By comparison.
Um,
Chris (03:37):
but yeah, it's, it can be a little bit of a shock if you
come in on a hot summer day.
But, um, you know, it's kind ofinteresting because people get
it right when they walk in andit gives us a little opportunity
to talk about.
Our philosophy and, and why andall the things behind that.
Francis (03:49):
Mm-hmm.
Chris (03:50):
Uh, as far as why we keep at that temperature
Francis (03:52):
certainly means is a clear indication that you take
things pretty, pretty darnseriously.
Let's talk about your degree,Chris, because I think that's
really phenomenal.
Now there are, how many mastersof wine in America?
Chris (04:01):
There are 23.
Francis (04:02):
How many were there when you took your degree?
I
Chris (04:03):
was number 13.
Francis (04:05):
Wow.
That's not lucky.
That's not lucky.
But you, you seem to have donewell with it.
Tell us about the MW degree andwhat prompted you at a time when
there were you, when you startedyour studies.
How many were there?
Like seven.
Chris (04:15):
when I started, there were 11, I believe, Uhhuh.
Um, I think only one or twopassed in the, in the time that
I, Americans passed.
Anyway,
Speaker 4 (04:23):
Uhhuh
Chris (04:24):
and there are about 247 in the world, and I was at a
time, I had a, I had anotherwine shop.
I was working there, things weregoing reasonably well.
I had some time on my hand.
And so I, uh, I decided I would,you know, throw, uh, throw
myself into the fray and thengive it a shot.
And I had looked at it early inthe eighties, but at that time
the institute was really only,uh, offering the courses in
(04:45):
London.
And you would have to work inthe London Wine trade and go
through the certificate diploma.
A little bit of a commute foryou.
You weren't quite ready to do
Mark (04:53):
that
Chris (04:54):
Exactly.
Just at a time I couldn't do it.
Then they went internationally,decided to really expand the
organization, um, much.
Beyond, beyond the, just theLondon market and the English
market.
And that was in the lateeighties.
How,
Francis (05:06):
how long did it take you to get the mw, Chris?
Chris (05:08):
Well, it took me three years, uh, well, from 93 to 96
Francis (05:11):
Uhhuh,
Chris (05:12):
so four years really from start to finish.
But if you think about it, Imean, you, you sort of bring all
of that experience and knowledgethat you've, that I, anyway, uh,
you know, learned since I gotinto the business in the, in
1979.
Was definitely necessary.
Speaker 4 (05:28):
Yeah.
To pass
Chris (05:28):
the exam.
There's a lot to know.
They don't really teach you whatyou need to know to be a master
of wine in the courses.
They really teach you what theexam is about and the depth and
breadth of, of what's covered onthe syllabus.
Well, although you do learn alot at the, I have to say,
Francis (05:41):
when you're pursuing a degree that there are only 23 of
in America, that would be, who'sthe teacher?
And it teaches you, it's, it's,it's taught by the other master.
I mean the, the exactly.
Exams are given by the othermasters, isn't that right?
Chris (05:53):
Exactly, exactly.
And the courses, there's just,there's a, the first year course
they call it is just one week,and the second year course is
just one week.
So you do learn a lot and itreally, uh, it gives you a new
way of looking at wine, I wouldsay.
But the emphasis of the courseis to identify either your
weaknesses, strengths, um, andget you familiar with, again,
the syllabus, the depth andbreadth of knowledge.
(06:13):
And then, um, you know, afterthe first.
Week.
You either.
Come back and do year two, the,the next year, and then go onto
the exam.
Or you take a couple years off,or you do year one again, but
it's not there to teach youeverything you
Francis (06:25):
need to do.
Well, and the idea is it's notlike you're going to university
for that many years to learnabout wine.
Exactly.
It's about achieving the masterstatus, you know?
Right.
And to get a master of winedegree today, do you need to
write a thesis or anything likethat?
Chris (06:36):
Yeah, the, the dissertation is the, uh, third
part, there's the, um, thepractical, which is the blind
tasting.
Yeah.
And then there's thetheoretical, which is the essay
questions.
And then, um.
And that takes place over fourdays.
And then the dissertation is nowthe last part.
After you pass the tasting andthe, and the theoretical part,
you then sit for the, you do thedissertation
Francis (06:56):
and you defend the dissertation or
Chris (06:58):
No, and actually they've changed it a little bit since I
took it.
When I took, when I passed thedissertation, it was the first
year it was required.
And again, there, this wastrying to bring this.
Uh, more in line withtraditional master's level
programs from universities,
Speaker 4 (07:10):
Uhhuh,
Chris (07:11):
and, uh, at the time I did it, they did it first.
You actually took it, you, youcould do your dissertation
simultaneously while studyingand preparing for the exam,
uhhuh.
And now they do it only, theyonly allow candidates who have
passed.
Both other sections to Wow.
Submit a dissertation.
Francis (07:26):
That's a pretty serious commitment of time you've been
there.
Seems It's pretty extraordinary.
Chris (07:29):
It, it really is.
I
Francis (07:30):
mean,
Chris (07:30):
I'm,
Francis (07:30):
you know, I'm glad you're my friend.
Can I tell everyone, you're myfriend.
Um, you're one of so few.
And, and how many masters arethere in New Jersey?
Are you the only one?
I'm the only one in New Jersey.
Like Tigger.
You're the only one.
I'm the only one.
Um, what do, um, how's ithelped?
I mean, what's, how, how does itcome in handy?
I mean, other than the factthat, you know, you make us play
that song every time you comeinto the restaurant for the
Jeep.
But other than that, how doesit, you know?
(07:52):
Yeah,
Chris (07:52):
I think like any high level degree or any, uh,
achievement that you earn suchas a, a diploma or, you know,
from graduation, whether it'scollege or you know, it, it
gives you credentials.
It gives you, uh mm-hmm.
Something that's recognizable inthe trade and, and, and, and
outside of it.
Um.
And then it's up to you, Iguess, what you do with it from
that point on.
Uh, but it certainly has helped.
(08:12):
I mean, it opens lots of doors.
People, you know, I don't thinkthere's a huge, huge awareness
of it across.
You know, the, in the US I mean,if you go to Britain or
Australia, it's literally, it'san, you know, people really
understand what it's about.
Francis (08:25):
Does it, does it impress chicks?
Chris (08:26):
Um, I think wine, don't you think wine, impress,
Mark (08:29):
I dunno.
Depends on the chick.
Uh, we're here talking withChris Cree from 56 Degrees, the
only master of wine in NewJersey.
That's just absolutely the besttitle in the whole world, but
Francis (08:40):
it's actually a real title.
He gets with letters after I,yeah, you get to throw the
letters around.
That's really cool man.
Mark (08:45):
That's, I was gonna ask you
Francis (08:46):
people have to bow down now.
Mark (08:47):
I was gonna put mu a master of the universe right
after my name, just see.
See if that would fly.
If I'm the first one though,don't they?
I automatically have to gimmethe title.
Francis (08:55):
Alright, well as much as I've enjoyed the ridiculous
banter so far, Chris, a seriousquestion for young people today.
I mean, when you went into thisnow, now there's the other
degree program, which is themaster sommelier degree.
Right?
And how many master sommelierare there, do you know?
Chris (09:07):
I don't know.
Um.
I have to say note
Francis (09:10):
to self, get a different guest significantly
more.
But there are more mastersdegrees.
There are more, I think, but
Chris (09:14):
no, but not a
Francis (09:15):
lot more.
How do No, no, no.
So they're both very rare andvery respected degrees, very
prestigious degrees.
Um, what do you think is thedifference between the MS degree
and the MW degree?
Chris (09:22):
Right.
I would agree.
Both high level degrees, toplevel, and the wine trade.
I think other than perhaps ifyou're going to be an enologist
or a a, they're gonna make one adifferent, yeah, a very specific
degree.
But they, the master of wine, Ithink looks more broadly at the
production.
The sale, the marketing, sort ofthe business of wine.
Mm-hmm.
From Grapevine, from planningvineyard to getting it to the
(09:44):
shelves of, of wherever it'snot, or to the consumer,
including the social issues,the.
Um, and again, the businessfinance, shipping, regulatory
and all that kind of stuff thatgoes along with the wine
business, whereas the, themaster sommelier, I think
focuses on the end game.
There is on the, is on theservice of wine in the service
environment and we have commonareas of study.
(10:05):
Obviously a lot of the sameblind tasting techniques, a lot
of the same knowledge aboutwine, wine regions, wine
production are are similar.
They're similar to both.
But I would say that's adifferent service on one side
and sort of the business of wineon the other.
Francis (10:19):
one of the great things about our job, I mean, we run
Stage Left Restaurant indowntown New Brunswick.
We also do a lot of consulting,especially on wine for other
restaurants and the like.
And one of the, the greatest,uh, pleasures for us is that we
have, in that 12 years, we'vebeen open, encountered a lot of
people at 18 or 19 years old.
And, and we hire a lot of peoplewithout experience.
So if you know an intelligent,hardworking young person who
(10:39):
wants to break into therestaurant industry, send them
to stage left.com and.
And have them fill out anapplication.
Um, but so we tend to have ouremployees with us for a, a
number of years and a few ofthem have gone on to pursue
careers in the restaurantbusiness and the wine business.
And it's great to have so manypeople you meet at 19 and that
remain your friends when they're27, 28 years old.
What advice do you give, toyoung people who decide to
(11:02):
pursue a career in wine?
I mean, do you suggest theypursue a degree?
Do you think the landscape haschanged where that's necessary?
Chris (11:08):
I think that, uh, you, you can only be well served by
learning as much as you can, uh,in whatever field you pursue.
Yeah.
Whether it's the wine businessor something else.
So I definitely, uh, encourage,uh, and I, and I go through the
same thing.
I get young people that come inor that wanna learn about wine
and perhaps get into the career,but I, I definitely encourage,
formal classes, whether it's a,you know, the certificate,
(11:30):
higher certificate, but startsomeplace.
But I also think that if you'rereally gonna do it, you've got
a, you've got a taste.
You've gotta read, you've gottado a lot on your own and, and
travel.
So it's not really a bad recipe.
Travel to wine country is fun,but I think it's essential.
Speaker 4 (11:45):
Yeah, that's, uh, if
Chris (11:45):
you're really gonna get a rounded, um, background and work
in, if you can, in differentaspects of the business, um,
and, and get a feel for, youknow, try to get a broad
experience in the
Mark (11:54):
business's and
Chris (11:55):
maybe restaurant retail.
Wholesale, you know, maybeimport.
Mark (11:58):
It's funny how the landscape has changed over the
last, uh, 15 or so years.
I remember, uh, graduatingcollege and, got a job for a
very brief time in the, in themore real world and afterwards,
uh, decided that the restaurantbusiness was gonna be my life
and what I really enjoyed.
My mother had to lie to mygrandmother to tell her I was
still working, uh, at a, for aninsurance company as a
(12:20):
statistician for Blue Cross BlueShield.
You know, just because mygrandmother would be ashamed
that I, that I had wasted mycollege education and my college
years and I.
And, uh, you know, now there's,there are are ways to make this
a respectable Yeah.
Adult profession.
Francis (12:36):
Do you, do you think, Chris, that the landscape
overall in wine shops, and let'stalk about specifically in
Jersey,'cause we know it has inSan Francisco and New York, but
do you think that landscape haschanged when you go into, are
you finding more wine shops thatyou can go in and find an
intelligent young person whoreally knows what they're
talking about?
Or When you go to restaurants inJersey, you find more enthusiasm
and knowledge among youngpeople.
Chris (12:54):
Uh, I think there is actually than earlier on.
Um, it seemed to me that it'snot where you'd hope it would
be.
Speaker 4 (13:00):
Right.
Right.
Chris (13:00):
And I'm not sure why that is, but I think there is more
enthusiasm.
I think there's more creativity.
Um, than there, than there usedto be.
I mean, if you think 10, 15years ago when there was none,
no, there was none.
I mean, there were wine shopscarried jug wines and you know,
they were liquor stores.
Yep.
Mark (13:16):
Some wine shops still are like that, Chris.
Chris (13:17):
Well that's true.
And some restaurants degrees inBurnsville, New Jersey, however,
is that correct?
That's right.
Um, and restaurants too, but Ithink there are more young
people that are finding theirway into the, into the business
and that's good.
I think.
Francis (13:30):
No, I think it's fabulous.
Yeah.
Um, I, I also think that, youknow, while New Jersey may not
be at the same level, because alot of people who are attracted
to this move to New York or SanFrancisco to sort of apply their
trade, um, you know, as aconsumer, I always recommend
that people, you know, they askthe person a question, maybe
even a question they know theanswer to, and you sort of judge
and you know, when someone'sfull of it and someone really
(13:51):
knows what they're talkingabout.
But I, I, you know, Icongratulate you, uh, for doing
on the retail end what we hopewe're doing on the restaurant
end, and bringing someprofessionalism and knowledge.
To the field.
Great.
Mark (14:01):
Well, thank you.
Yeah.
Chris, we just wanna say thanksvery much and, uh, you've been
listening to Chris Cree from 56Degrees on the restaurant guys
with Mark Pascal and FrancisShot.
Francis (14:09):
And we'll, uh, direct some people to your website.
If you wanna find out more aboutChris Cree, uh, you can go to
restaurant guys radio.com,
Mark (14:17):
we were just talking to Chris Cree about restaurant
degrees and uh, and again,becoming professionals in this
business, which, uh, sometimesis.
Is looked on with a little bitof disdain from the masses.
I don't, I don't have a degree
Francis (14:29):
in wine.
I have a college degree, but,um, I'm a professional and you
know, it's interesting, mark,you related a story in the last
segment about how yourgrandmother couldn't be told
that you were still in therestaurant business.
'cause So I actually opened myown restaurant, right?
'cause your mother was ashamed.
Now, um, you know, I had asimilar story and I remember
that when I, um, at the dinnertable, I, I mentioned that we
were going to open.
(14:49):
A restaurant, uh, and let's justsay it was met with a deafening
silence.
You know, I come from a longline of Irish Catholic, uh, cops
and firemen, so no one had evergone into business before, and
certainly not the restaurantbusiness.
And I think, I don't know, youknow, this, this world,
especially in the way we do it,and it's not, look, we have a
very expensive restaurant, okay?
We have a very high endrestaurant, but that's not the
only area where you can beprofessional.
(15:11):
I think what's interesting iseven when our restaurant used to
be more casual years ago.
We were very professional aboutwhat we did in the middle genre
of, of food.
we cared about what we did.
We deal with small producers andwe provide a unique thing.
And the, you know, the travelopportunities that we've gotten
from buying wine and sellingwine and going to source cheese
products in Europe.
Well, it is tax deductible.
(15:31):
I know.
That's great.
You should all open arestaurant.
There's more tax deductibletravel involved.
Um.
But you know, who wouldn't wannado this?
I mean, yeah, the hours arecrazy.
We're a little bit insane.
Um, I think anybody
Mark (15:41):
sane wouldn't wanna do this as Yeah, you're right.
Francis (15:43):
Answer.
But, but what I'm saying is thatyou can do it with a level of
professionalism, and thatdoesn't necessarily mean in an
expensive place.
Mark (15:49):
Well, you know, o over the years we've, we've gotten to,
uh, kind of change the way we dothings.
You know, like you alluded to aminute ago, the restaurant's
gotten kind of bigger and betterand more expensive and all those
things, but things I tell everysingle person who works for me.
Is, I don't care what you'redoing.
I don't care if you're serving acheeseburger.
I don't care if you're serving,you know, fo gra, it doesn't
(16:11):
matter.
Always do everything you can tothe best of your capabilities.
And that's not just in the winebusiness, it's in everything you
do.
Whether you're doing a radioshow, whether you're doing, uh,
uh, statistician for Blue CrossBlue Shield, it doesn't matter.
We should,
Francis (16:23):
we should do the radio show a little better, I think.
Mark (16:25):
Yeah.
Okay.
We'll work on that.
We'll, we'll get better, wepromise.
We'll do the best we can.
Francis (16:29):
Well, you know, and the thing is, it's what is amazing,
I find in Jersey and all around.
I am seeing young people today,and we've had some incredible
people that have come to workfor us, that still work for us.
And some people have worked forus for a number of years.
Some have stayed in thebusiness, some have gone on to
other businesses.
But this is really a place wherepeople hone their skills, they
have a real job.
And that also goes back to the,to the dining public.
(16:49):
I mean, let's face it, you, youdon't have these kind of
careers.
If you don't have a marketthat's ready to say, oh, okay,
what kind of fancy cheese do youhave?
What kind of small producer doyou have?
So that it goes all around.
Mark (16:58):
Very nice finding those restaurant professionals.
Well, it's been a, a nice littlesegment here.
Uh, next we'll be talking toJohn Fisher.
author of.
Book at your service and aprofessor at, CIA Culinary
Institute of America in Service,and actually a very, very old
friend of mine in Francis's.
Yeah.
Francis (17:15):
He's like 106.
No, that's not, not that oldnow.
That's a horrible joke, isn'tit?
Yeah.
Really.
And John, John and Mark and Ihave been friends for a long
time.
We, we were in a lunch clubtogether, it lasted for about 10
years, called the Red Meat Club.
It was full of restaurateurs,chefs, wine buyers, and other
crazy people who would meet foron the second Monday of every
month and eat red meat rare.
And drink red wine.
And.
Boy, that was a lot of fun.
John (17:35):
John, are you there?
I'm sorry, I can't hear you.
I'm too old.
Yeah,
Francis (17:40):
no, it was too much red meat in the days.
John (17:42):
Lemme put my hearing aids
Francis (17:44):
in, put my
John (17:45):
cane down.
Francis (17:46):
So John, you decided to grow up and become a professor
and write a book?
Well, that,
John (17:52):
that, that didn't happen just as a, a conscious decision.
It was just a, um, actually itwas a bit of a decision.
I, when I was a student at theCulinary Institute way back in
the, in the late eighties.
I realized that at some point Iwanted to go back to the, to my
alma mater to teach.
And, um, but it came true.
Um, after 12 years in Manhattan,I realized that it, it might be
(18:13):
a good time for me to go up toHyde Park, start teaching
students the things that I hadtaught myself.
And also perhaps start a writingcareer and both of which have
come true.
Mark (18:21):
I just presume somebody bet you at 4:00 AM that you
wouldn't do it.
John (18:24):
No.
No.
Although I tell you, when astudent calls me professor, I
still look behind me to see whothey're talking to.
Francis (18:29):
You know, if a student called you professor, I would
look at back the room.
I would look behind.
Um, uh, so professor, um, well,lemme get my pipe.
Why don't you, and why don't youtell us, tell, I mean, I know.
Why don't you tell the people inthe audience the places, the
fabulous places you worked inManhattan when you worked there.
You have a pretty broadexperience actually working in
the business.
John (18:47):
Well, yeah, I've worked in a lot of different kinds of
places.
Um, my first place that I wentto right out of cooking school
was, um, the Hudson River Clubin downtown Manhattan.
The World Financial Center.
Francis (18:57):
Yeah.
John (18:58):
Um, with Waldi Molo, who's also a culinary grad, and now at
Beacon Restaurant on 56thStreet.
Francis (19:03):
Mm-hmm.
Manhattan.
John (19:04):
So I worked with him for, um, a good three years, going
from assistant manager,eventually up to general manager
and along the way gettingresponsibility for the wine list
and the beverage department aswell.
Um, after that.
I ended up at Mondrian with Tomcio, um, who's the chef at
Gramercy Tavern, and the ownerand chef at Craft, um, went to a
fish restaurant after that, the,uh, Manhattan Ocean Club with a
(19:27):
last name Fisher.
You kind of get, yeah,
Francis (19:29):
yeah.
John (19:29):
Um, and then eventually wandered over to the world of
Italian restaurants and went toCampan.
Um, which was a pretty hot placefor a while with Mark
Straussman,
Francis (19:38):
and at that time actually you served me the best,
uh, plate of polenta withtruffles and an egg in the
middle that I'd ever had in mylife.
I still dream about that dish.
That's such an amazing dish.
Yeah, it really was.
John (19:47):
It's still the best truffle dish that I shamelessly.
We
Mark (19:49):
rip it off at left every truffle season.
It's still the best truffle dishthat I've ever had.
Yeah,
John (19:54):
and you should only let people eat it with a spoon.
Boons are sexier than forks.
Francis (19:58):
I agree.
You can't eat polenta like thatwith a fork.
No.
Well, so John, what'sinteresting though, I mean that
that's a pretty stellar a bit ofexperience to take back to the
CIA, which is the preeminentculinary school, certainly in
America.
Um.
And, but you are focused onfront of the house, whereas I
think historically, most of thepeople from CIA have been back
of the house people, chefs, linecooks, people like that.
(20:19):
And back when you were, were,you knew you wanted to go into
the front of the house, yet youwent to CIA.
How did that all happen?
John (20:26):
Yeah.
Well, my, my first job in thebusiness, I was 24 and I was
working at the Chart house inDobbs Ferry, which at that point
was a great chain of, of steakand seafood restaurants.
Sure.
Very simple.
Remember the one.
We got to wear Hawaiian shirtswhere, which is where that
obsession of mine started.
Francis (20:40):
Oh my,
John (20:41):
yeah, I know.
Horrible.
Um, we have them to blame.
Yeah.
Um, but when I was there, Irealized that I was in my mid
twenties and there were a bunchof 18 year olds who had been in
the business for at least sixyears.
And I had to catch up to themin, um, in the knowledge area.
And so I decided to, um, infact, the guy that I used to
butcher with at the steakhousewas a culinary graduate and
said, if you wanna learn aboutthe restaurant business, you
(21:03):
have to go to the culinary.
And so I applied and got in as aperson who was planning to stay
in the front of the house, in,in the dining room and, and work
in beverage.
But wanted to learn how to cookso I could be a better manager.
Francis (21:15):
That's a pretty awesome commitment.
I mean, you, you have people whowanna be in the front of the
house to go to ccia a now, butthat was, that was unusual back.
Yeah.
Back then you were, you were a aI was a rarer.
The few the
John (21:24):
proud, I was the only coffee slapper that I knew.
Francis (21:27):
I knew there was a nickname for it.
Coffee slapper.
John (21:29):
Is that what they call me?
The slapper?
Francis (21:30):
That's us.
Yeah.
That's us boys.
Yikes.
That's a very bizarre thing.
I'm a trained barista, and sonow, and so now you've gone
back.
I, I hope you're a barista.
A barista, yeah.
Mark's not so good.
The Italian, the French.
Anyway, but so you, now you'vegone back to ccia a to teach,
and do you primarily teach frontof the house skills, wine
skills, things like that, thatyou My,
John (21:50):
my, my primary, um, appointment, I'm working in the
French restaurant, which is a, aformal French restaurant called
the Escal Room, Uhhuh.
And, you know, haul, definitelywe twirl our mustache.
Those are scoffing, everything.
Francis (22:02):
That's them.
John (22:02):
Um, I had to grow the mustache to be able to twirl it.
Francis (22:05):
Oh.
John (22:06):
Um, but anyway, that's a topic.
Francis (22:07):
Yeah.
We,
John (22:07):
um, we, we serve very classic formal French food.
We have dopa soul and, and all,you know, the, the lamb chops
don't have any fat on'em andthings like that.
Very, very hoity-toity food, butin obviously an American
restaurant.
So I teach students how to deoneover soul and, and set food on
fire on purpose.
Um, like without,
Francis (22:27):
without the tablecloth also going up.
Right.
Right.
And
John (22:29):
I tell the students that if the little red trucks come,
they fail for the day.
That's exactly.
Um, but teaching them some ofthe basics of, of true formal
dining service that they're notgonna, they're not gonna learn
anywhere else.
Mm-hmm.
Francis (22:40):
And that's
John (22:40):
in fact why most students.
Choose the French restaurantover the American restaurant to
work in.
It's because they're not gonnabe able to learn this stuff
anywhere else.
Francis (22:48):
So John, you teach, uh, what you're saying is that when
people, the students have achoice to work in the American
restaurant for part of it, or towork in the French restaurant
for part of it, and they choosethe French restaurant because.
What I'm understanding you tosay is that they'll learn skills
there that they may or may notuse in the American restaurant,
whereas working in the Americanrestaurant, there's a less
formal set of skills that youlearn.
It's a
John (23:07):
less formal set of skills.
It's still, um, the samecurriculum.
It's called Advanced TableService, uhhuh,
Francis (23:12):
but
John (23:12):
they just have a more modern approach.
You know, it's more like goingto Oreo as opposed to La Caravel
or something.
Francis (23:19):
Right.
Right.
John (23:20):
Um.
And so we do, we do teach'emthings, um, at at the same
level.
But obviously being in a Frenchrestaurant, um, we have to have
the accent.
You have to learn the word.
You
Francis (23:30):
do not.
Everybody's making that up.
He's making that up.
John Fisher mustache was badenough.
I got your name, I got yournumber.
John (23:36):
Anyway, so we do teach them some skills that they might
even never.
Have to use again in the fieldbecause restaurants where you
have tableside service aredisappearing.
Um, but I equate it to teachingLatin in high school.
Francis (23:49):
Right.
It's the basics.
It's where it all comes
John (23:51):
from.
I couldn't agree more.
You don't speak Latin, but itmakes you better on jeopardy,
you know?
Francis (23:54):
Yeah.
Well that wasn't exactly theanalogy that I was going for
John, but I, but I accept theanalogy.
Okay.
Um, and do you, do you spend alot of time teaching people
about wine
John (24:03):
up
Francis (24:03):
there?
John (24:04):
Um, we do, um, spend a good, um, day and a half on, um,
French wine in my class, but thestudents have already had a
three week comprehensive wineclass that is one of the hardest
classes in the school.
Um, because they have to learnthe world of wine in three
weeks.
And, you know, we've beenspending.
How many years teachingourselves and learning about it
(24:24):
and to learn the entire world ofwine in three weeks is obviously
ims an impossible feat.
Francis (24:28):
So are you saying that after you've had your student
for three weeks, they know asmuch as I do about wine or more.
John (24:32):
Um, possibly more, but they just don't show it as much.
Francis (24:35):
Yeah,
John (24:36):
yeah.
They don't talk about it.
They're not as secure in theirknowledge as you are.
Mark (24:39):
Thank you.
Well, Francis is very secure inhis knowledge, that's for sure.
John (24:43):
Yeah.
I'm not shy.
Um, I'm, I'm, I'm extremelyinsecure.
That's why I'm a teacher.
Francis (24:45):
Actually, you should also know that John is one of
the most wine knowledgeablepeople that I have come across,
uh, in, in my travels, and we'vedone together.
Five bucks
John (24:51):
coming your way.
Shot.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
So I do teach wine to, to mystudents, but I also teach some
wine classes to, um, some of ourcontinuing education classes
where professionals are comingin outta the field for short
classes and I'll teach them, um,whatever aspect of wine they
need to learn for their class ofItalian or French or, or wine
and food matching.
So, um, whatever they need me todo, I'm a hired gun.
(25:14):
Terrific for that department.
Mark (25:15):
Uh, John, tell us a little bit about your book.
John (25:18):
Um, well, it's a book on, it's a, it's a practical guide
to, um, dining room service.
Um, it just doesn't seem likethere are very many of them
around with, with lists of whatthey have, um, for setup and
things like that, but also someinformation on how.
The dining room and the kitchenneed to relate, um, the
relationship between the frontof the house and the back of the
(25:38):
house.
Which as we know asprofessionals is incredibly
important and a little bit onbeverage.
It's basically a, a, an overviewof, um, dining room service.
Francis (25:47):
Is this a book that, is pretty much for use in culinary
schools or should everyrestaurant buy one?
Or would it be, would people whoare not in the restaurant
business find it interesting?
John (25:57):
Oh, well, I would say every man, woman, and child in
the United States should
Francis (26:00):
buy one.
Okay.
If you weren't making any moneyoff the book, what would you
say?
Okay.
John (26:03):
Um, well, it's intended, as a textbook.
At least.
At least the original, uh,proposal was for a textbook for
culinary schools and hospitalityschools.
But I'm thinking that it mightbe a good thing.
For a lot of restaurateurs whomaybe taught themselves how to
do it,
Mark (26:19):
uhhuh
John (26:19):
a lot of mom and pop places
Mark (26:21):
and, and maybe taught themselves incorrectly.
Is that what, is that whatyou're alluding to?
Yeah.
Well,
John (26:24):
potentially, but also there are lots of things that
you, you, you, you two know aswell as I do that we figured a
lot of this stuff out on ourown,
Francis (26:30):
right?
Mm-hmm.
John (26:30):
You know, and someone has a, has a, a fainting spell and
you don't know how to deal withit.
Um, you, you make it up on thespot.
Right.
But this book does actually havesome suggestions for how to deal
with, emergencies, as well as, alot of other information on how
to run the dining room.
How to, you know, how to takereservations, um, what the
important things are at thedoor.
Um, basically every aspect ofthe dining room is covered, at
(26:53):
least to a certain degree.
And as I mentioned before, thebreak, um, what, what I think
one of the most valuablechapters is, is the relationship
between the dining room and thekitchen because it's so, it's
been historically so poor in ourbusiness that where the kitchen
hated the front, and the fronthated the kitchen.
Sure.
Well, it,
Mark (27:09):
it's, you know, you have two very different personality
types.
One who works and chooses towork in the kitchen.
Yeah.
One who chooses to work in thefront of
Francis (27:16):
house.
And you're so right John, thatthe management of the
restaurant, our job is to makesure that they have a smooth
relationship.
Yeah.
And that, and because, becausein a restaurant where you are,
you are encouragingprofessionalism.
You are all working toward thesame end.
You're not all there just tocollect a paycheck, you know,
and the waitress hates to cook,and the cook hates the wait,
check, wait.
And the chef throws a pot atsomebody that's got to, that has
(27:37):
no place in a professionalrestaurant.
John (27:38):
No.
And, and I think one, one thingthat's interesting is that a lot
of, a lot of people will say,well, the good old days,
everybody hated each other.
Francis (27:44):
Right.
John (27:44):
Um, which I don't think is necessarily true because I think
the truly great restaurants.
Always had a good relationshipbetween the front and the back.
Sure.
Mark (27:51):
Because, well, you need each other.
Yeah.
I mean, a, a great chef whosefood is presented poorly,
doesn't show very well.
Right.
A, a a great waiter who hashorrible food to deal with or,
or can't accommodate thecustomer is, is gonna have
problems and, and never show asa great waiter.
John (28:08):
Yeah.
I tell, I tell my my studentsthat, you know, if you look at
the restaurant as if it were astereo system.
The waiters are the speaker, youknow, that's where the sound
comes out.
And if you have the, uh, theequipment in the back of the
kitchen and it's not so hot,whatever comes out of the
speaker is still gonna be bad.
Francis (28:23):
Right?
Right.
But
John (28:24):
everything has to be the same quality and work together.
And you know, I've found that,that by, by learning how to
cook, I've almost gained instantrespect, almost un undeserved
from a lot of chefs that I knowand that I've worked with.
Mark (28:36):
Any respect you get is undeserved, John.
I agree.
Francis (28:38):
Uh, but beyond that, um, because since you are a
guest and we have to be leastsilly, can
John (28:42):
somebody get this knife outta my back?
Francis (28:45):
What?
No.
You had, you've had a lot ofexperience teaching restaurant
professionals, John, um, whatare the things that you just.
Can't teach in school.
'cause there are aspects of ourbusiness that you just, you
know, you need exp I, we hire alot of CIA graduates and they're
great and we love the programand when we get really well
prepared people for an entrylevel job, but you don't walk
outta Ccia a a My problem withCIA is a lot of people walk out
(29:06):
and wanna be sous chef rightaway.
And like, I graduated from CIA,so I should be able to be the
general manager of therestaurant.
And that just doesn't fly.
What are the things?
Well, luckily
John (29:12):
I think that's.
Decreased a lot in the last 10years.
Yes.
I think when I was a studentthere, it was really bad.
CIA ego was definitely a, aphenomenon that was fed by the
school.
But somewhere along the way werealized that that was not the
way students should be leaving.
Francis (29:26):
Mm-hmm.
John (29:26):
And now they're much more, um.
Um, I hope they're much more,um, humble than they were.
Francis (29:32):
I love hiring CIA grads down.
I really do.
But what are the things that youcan't teach in school that you
can't learn from reading a bookthat really only come with
working in a restaurant for 10years or seven years?
Well,
John (29:41):
one thing that I don't think even comes from working in
a restaurant is in the words ofour, our dear friend Dale Degra.
You know, I could teach a guy tomake a drink, but I can't teach
'em to be nice.
Francis (29:49):
Yeah, Dale's the, the probably the most famous
bartender in the world who isalso a mutual friend of ours.
Yeah.
And also nice and also nice guy.
John (29:55):
Very, very important friends, don't we?
Yeah.
I just, let's pat
Francis (29:58):
each other on the back.
Let's patting each other on theback.
I'm really enjoying it.
I
John (30:01):
can't pat myself.
I've got a knife back there.
Sorry.
Francis (30:03):
Well, you know, friends come hard now.
If you want more informationabout John Fisher and his book
and the CIA, uh, you can go toour website, which is restaurant
guys radio.com where we'll havemore information there.
Now, can our folks come up andvisit you at CIA John and maybe
have dinner there?
John (30:18):
Oh, sure.
We have four public restaurants.
There's the French restaurant Iwork in.
There's the American BountyRestaurant, which is, uh, fine
dining American cuisine.
Um, the Caterina Dei restaurantis our regional Italian
restaurant with n spot of redsauce.
It's actual real Italianregional food.
Um, then we have our, for lackof a better term, healthy
restaurant, the St.
Andrew's Cafe, which peoplealways say, ah, why go to the
(30:39):
culinary for a healthyrestaurant?
Got food, but the food's great.
Yeah.
And it's actually good for you.
Francis (30:44):
Well, all right, well, I'll go to the French place the
next time I come.
Uh, and, but you know, it's avery reasonably priced thing and
you make a reservation and it'sreally worth, if you live in
Jersey, it's actually reallyworth taking a ride up there.
It's beautiful country and it'sthe restaurant where the
professors like John areteaching the students.
And, uh, the prices areincredibly reasonable because
the idea is not for thoserestaurants to make money, but
(31:04):
the teacher suits and theservice, and the wine and the
food.
It's a
John (31:07):
classroom first and a restaurant
Francis (31:07):
second.
It's great stuff.
I
John (31:09):
dunno, I wanna do that.
If they look at our, ourwebsite, cia chef.edu.
Francis (31:13):
Great.
John (31:13):
Um, there's a lot of information about the
restaurants and then how to makereservations.
You can even make reservationson online now
Francis (31:19):
and we'll put a, we'll put a link, uh, to that on
restaurant guys radio.com.
Excellent.
Mark (31:22):
So John, uh, one of the things that we're gonna have to
do when we get off the air isset up, uh.
Luncheon for us to go out.
So we'll make sure we make thathappen next time you're down
this way.
Uh, we are very thankful to haveJohn Fisher from the ccia, a
professor at CIA.
That's correct.
And, uh, author of a book calledAt Your Service.
With us on the restaurant Guys,today, I'm Mark Pascal and with
(31:42):
my partner Francis Sch.
we'll be back in just a momentto wrap up with John Fisher,
Francis (31:48):
with all this talk of professionalism, John.
It's.
You know, it's, some of it isfun and games and I, and I wanna
relate.
I want to see, and while I haveyou on the line to verify that
fun, this actually happened backin the years when you were a
restaurant professional and arecent graduate of CIA.
I remember being out to lunchwith you one decadent afternoon
and after several bottles ofwine,
Mark (32:04):
I'm sure it was a red meat club meeting.
Francis (32:06):
You informed, you informed me and two other
friends that it was the CIAClass reunion.
Do you remember this day?
Oh yeah, yeah.
That was on the, the world.
What was that?
A yacht?
Some kind of oak?
Yeah.
No,
John (32:15):
well, it, it moved it around.
Ha.
But it was always on a red meatclub day.
'cause it was always on a red.
No, no, no.
But
Francis (32:19):
this particular day that Jaime Cordoba, we went with
Jaime Cordoba.
This, where was the, it was at,it was on a pier or something.
I don't know.
It was
John (32:25):
on one of the, uh, one of those restaurant ships.
Francis (32:27):
Yeah.
It's all a little fuzzy.
But, uh, we, he said, let's goto the ccia a, uh, class
reunion.
I was like, well, I didn't go toCcia a John.
He's like, it's fine.
You're Jaime Cordoba.
I said, I'm what?
He said, you're Jaime Cordoba.
I was like, he's like, I went toschool.
Jaime.
You're Jaime, and you gavesomebody else another name and I
think it was me that was Jaime.
And
John (32:44):
for those of people listening, you don't exactly
look like a Jaime Cordova.
No.
What, well, what's funny is he,the Irish guy from just
Francis (32:50):
tell him, tell him when you get there that you're high
maker over.
So we got to the, to the, to theadmittance counter and they, and
they said Name, and John said,uh, John Fisher.
And they gave him a name tag andthey said, name.
Said a little bit after I had alittle bit of one.
I said, my name is Jaime Cordovaand it was a fabulous party.
We did have fun, didn't we?
Yeah, that was really a lot offun.
Mark (33:09):
I think it was the party before, before the party where
you guys had most of your fun.
Francis (33:12):
So, so back, back.
On a serious note, John, do youthink that that restauranting
in, in America is becoming moreprofessional, that you're seeing
more young people learning aboutfood and wine and doing this as
a career?
John (33:21):
Well, I think more of our graduates definitely.
I know that more of ourgraduates now are going into the
front of the house as opposed tothe kitchen.
Francis (33:28):
Um,
John (33:28):
I think there are plenty of good cooks out there now, and
I think a lot of our graduates,especially the ones who are
graduating with, graduating witha bachelor's degree, are heading
for management rather than goinginto line cook positions.
Francis (33:38):
Mm-hmm.
John (33:39):
Um, although we still need our line
Francis (33:40):
cooks.
What's that?
Although we still need thoseline cooks.
Oh, I know that.
John (33:43):
We do.
We definitely need them.
But after having spent, youknow, a hundred grand on college
Francis (33:47):
Yeah.
There
John (33:47):
aren't a lot of students who wanna make 12 bucks an hour.
Francis (33:49):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um,
John (33:51):
but also those jobs are opening up to them.
And with the bachelor's degrees,we have students going now
instead of going to some of themid-level hotels.
And the companies, they'reactually going to the Four
Seasons and Ritz Carlton, thebest hotel that's right in the
world.
So they're stepping into middlemanagement positions with a
bachelor's degree.
And that's, that's a big changefrom when I was a student.
When you were either gonna be acook or you know, one person was
(34:12):
going to be a dining roomperson.
That was me.
Mark (34:14):
Well, thanks very much, John.
It, it's been great having youtoday.
I wanna thank you very much forElmo.
It's been great being here,spending the afternoon.
And uh, I also wanna thank ourearlier guest, Chris Cree from
56 Degrees in Burnsville, NewJersey.
Uh, that was John Fisher, authorof the book at your service.
You can find all thosethings@restaurantguideradio.com.
Have a good afternoon, centralJersey 1450.
(34:36):
Time is 12 noon.
We're here today with, we have a kind of an overarching
topic, which is careers in therestaurant business, careers in
the food business, careers inthe hospitality business, and
and the wine business.
And we have a couple of.
Professionals, kind of uberprofessionals.
Today we're gonna be talking,uh, first with Chris Cree, who
is a master of wine, which isone of the two.
Uh, the MW degree and the MSdegree are the two degrees that
(01:02):
you can get letters after yourname in the wine business that
matter, not for making wine, butfor actually selling and
servicing and dealing with the,the community.
And, and it's a prettyprestigious degree.
And there are actually very fewof those,
Mark (01:12):
actually only 23 in the United States.
Francis (01:14):
And then we are going to, uh.
Take the next half of the showand we're gonna talk to our
friend John Fisher, who is aprofessor of service and wine up
at the Culinary Institute ofAmerica in, uh, New York State.
And so for the first segment ofthe show, we have on the line, I
hope Chris Cree, master of wine.
Chris, are you there?
Chris (01:31):
I'm here.
Francis (01:32):
How are you?
Are are, are you the master ofwine?
I am.
I'm one of them.
You're well, uh, in, uh, spiritof full disclosure, mark and
Chris and I are old friends.
We go way back.
We have, um, drunk winetogether, uh, in, in many
countries around the world onmany times, and, and always had
a good time doing it.
Absolutely and hopefully learneda thing or two.
Mark (01:49):
We seem to find ourselves in the same circles over and
over again.
Francis (01:52):
Chris, let's get this outta the way.
Why don't you plug your store,which is a pretty interesting
thing, and tell us a little bitabout it.
'cause I think there's somethingto be learned in the very
speaking of it.
Chris (02:00):
Very good.
Yeah.
We have a, a new store.
It's in Bernardsville, NewJersey called 56 Degree Wine.
Francis (02:05):
Why would you call it
Chris (02:06):
that,
Francis (02:06):
Chris?
Chris (02:07):
Imagine that it's, uh, we.
Looked at the proper temperaturefor storage and wines and felt
that that was important enoughthat we would stake our name on
it.
And, uh, we liked 56, betterthan 58, I guess
Speaker 4 (02:19):
it's, but uh,
Chris (02:20):
so we, um, not only that, but we focus really on just
small artisan growers from allover the world.
Wow.
Francis (02:26):
That sounds familiar.
Sounds like.
Mark and Francis.
It does
Chris (02:29):
sound a little familiar, doesn't it?
Francis (02:30):
I thinks why we find ourselves in the same circle,
right?
You're in Verona, you're inVerona walking down the street.
Not Verona, New Jersey.
You're in Verona in Italy,walking down the street and
you're like, Hey, that's Chris.
Well there was that one time atthe White Castle.
Yeah.
Well, no, but you, but you, wefind ourselves in various
countries saying, oh look, it'sChris CRE again.
Turning up on the island, theblock.
Um, so 56 degrees, is your storekept at 56 degrees?
Chris (02:49):
Yeah, we keep the whole store.
Uh, temperature and humidity.
Control does add a littlehumidity jacket.
Don't
Francis (02:53):
you get the sniffles once in a while.
It's cold.
Yeah, we have jacket stuff.
Chris (02:57):
Oh, do you give the jackets to your patrons?
We do.
Well, we don't give them tothem, but I think a few have
walked out with them though,loaned the jackets, we
Francis (03:03):
loan them.
Right.
I think that's a, that's a prizeto be, had to try and go scarf a
a 56 degrees jacket.
Mark (03:08):
We have a couple spots at stage left where we, where we
have some private events and uh,we do the exact same thing where
we keep it nice and cool for thewine and our motto is.
You'll be gone in a couplehours.
The wine will still be here.
The wine lives
Francis (03:20):
here.
We don't change the temperature.
That's, that's absolutely right.
So, um, how do, how are youfinding, just to talk about the
most, uh, banal, uh, and or themost surface things, how do you
find that goes over with yourpatrons and they walk into a
store That's well, quite chilly.
Chris (03:33):
You know, it's, uh, it depends.
In the winter, it's warm inhere.
Yeah.
Francis (03:36):
By comparison.
Um,
Chris (03:37):
but yeah, it's, it can be a little bit of a shock if you
come in on a hot summer day.
But, um, you know, it's kind ofinteresting because people get
it right when they walk in andit gives us a little opportunity
to talk about.
Our philosophy and, and why andall the things behind that.
Francis (03:49):
Mm-hmm.
Chris (03:50):
Uh, as far as why we keep at that temperature
Francis (03:52):
certainly means is a clear indication that you take
things pretty, pretty darnseriously.
Let's talk about your degree,Chris, because I think that's
really phenomenal.
Now there are, how many mastersof wine in America?
Chris (04:01):
There are 23.
Francis (04:02):
How many were there when you took your degree?
I
Chris (04:03):
was number 13.
Francis (04:05):
Wow.
That's not lucky.
That's not lucky.
But you, you seem to have donewell with it.
Tell us about the MW degree andwhat prompted you at a time when
there were you, when you startedyour studies.
How many were there?
Like seven.
Chris (04:15):
when I started, there were 11, I believe, Uhhuh.
Um, I think only one or twopassed in the, in the time that
I, Americans passed.
Anyway,
Speaker 4 (04:23):
Uhhuh
Chris (04:24):
and there are about 247 in the world, and I was at a
time, I had a, I had anotherwine shop.
I was working there, things weregoing reasonably well.
I had some time on my hand.
And so I, uh, I decided I would,you know, throw, uh, throw
myself into the fray and thengive it a shot.
And I had looked at it early inthe eighties, but at that time
the institute was really only,uh, offering the courses in
(04:45):
London.
And you would have to work inthe London Wine trade and go
through the certificate diploma.
A little bit of a commute foryou.
You weren't quite ready to do
Mark (04:53):
that
Chris (04:54):
Exactly.
Just at a time I couldn't do it.
Then they went internationally,decided to really expand the
organization, um, much.
Beyond, beyond the, just theLondon market and the English
market.
And that was in the lateeighties.
How,
Francis (05:06):
how long did it take you to get the mw, Chris?
Chris (05:08):
Well, it took me three years, uh, well, from 93 to 96
Francis (05:11):
Uhhuh,
Chris (05:12):
so four years really from start to finish.
But if you think about it, Imean, you, you sort of bring all
of that experience and knowledgethat you've, that I, anyway, uh,
you know, learned since I gotinto the business in the, in
1979.
Was definitely necessary.
Speaker 4 (05:28):
Yeah.
To pass
Chris (05:28):
the exam.
There's a lot to know.
They don't really teach you whatyou need to know to be a master
of wine in the courses.
They really teach you what theexam is about and the depth and
breadth of, of what's covered onthe syllabus.
Well, although you do learn alot at the, I have to say,
Francis (05:41):
when you're pursuing a degree that there are only 23 of
in America, that would be, who'sthe teacher?
And it teaches you, it's, it's,it's taught by the other master.
I mean the, the exactly.
Exams are given by the othermasters, isn't that right?
Chris (05:53):
Exactly, exactly.
And the courses, there's just,there's a, the first year course
they call it is just one week,and the second year course is
just one week.
So you do learn a lot and itreally, uh, it gives you a new
way of looking at wine, I wouldsay.
But the emphasis of the courseis to identify either your
weaknesses, strengths, um, andget you familiar with, again,
the syllabus, the depth andbreadth of knowledge.
(06:13):
And then, um, you know, afterthe first.
Week.
You either.
Come back and do year two, the,the next year, and then go onto
the exam.
Or you take a couple years off,or you do year one again, but
it's not there to teach youeverything you
Francis (06:25):
need to do.
Well, and the idea is it's notlike you're going to university
for that many years to learnabout wine.
Exactly.
It's about achieving the masterstatus, you know?
Right.
And to get a master of winedegree today, do you need to
write a thesis or anything likethat?
Chris (06:36):
Yeah, the, the dissertation is the, uh, third
part, there's the, um, thepractical, which is the blind
tasting.
Yeah.
And then there's thetheoretical, which is the essay
questions.
And then, um.
And that takes place over fourdays.
And then the dissertation is nowthe last part.
After you pass the tasting andthe, and the theoretical part,
you then sit for the, you do thedissertation
Francis (06:56):
and you defend the dissertation or
Chris (06:58):
No, and actually they've changed it a little bit since I
took it.
When I took, when I passed thedissertation, it was the first
year it was required.
And again, there, this wastrying to bring this.
Uh, more in line withtraditional master's level
programs from universities,
Speaker 4 (07:10):
Uhhuh,
Chris (07:11):
and, uh, at the time I did it, they did it first.
You actually took it, you, youcould do your dissertation
simultaneously while studyingand preparing for the exam,
uhhuh.
And now they do it only, theyonly allow candidates who have
passed.
Both other sections to Wow.
Submit a dissertation.
Francis (07:26):
That's a pretty serious commitment of time you've been
there.
Seems It's pretty extraordinary.
Chris (07:29):
It, it really is.
I
Francis (07:30):
mean,
Chris (07:30):
I'm,
Francis (07:30):
you know, I'm glad you're my friend.
Can I tell everyone, you're myfriend.
Um, you're one of so few.
And, and how many masters arethere in New Jersey?
Are you the only one?
I'm the only one in New Jersey.
Like Tigger.
You're the only one.
I'm the only one.
Um, what do, um, how's ithelped?
I mean, what's, how, how does itcome in handy?
I mean, other than the factthat, you know, you make us play
that song every time you comeinto the restaurant for the
Jeep.
But other than that, how doesit, you know?
(07:52):
Yeah,
Chris (07:52):
I think like any high level degree or any, uh,
achievement that you earn suchas a, a diploma or, you know,
from graduation, whether it'scollege or you know, it, it
gives you credentials.
It gives you, uh mm-hmm.
Something that's recognizable inthe trade and, and, and, and
outside of it.
Um.
And then it's up to you, Iguess, what you do with it from
that point on.
Uh, but it certainly has helped.
(08:12):
I mean, it opens lots of doors.
People, you know, I don't thinkthere's a huge, huge awareness
of it across.
You know, the, in the US I mean,if you go to Britain or
Australia, it's literally, it'san, you know, people really
understand what it's about.
Francis (08:25):
Does it, does it impress chicks?
Chris (08:26):
Um, I think wine, don't you think wine, impress,
Mark (08:29):
I dunno.
Depends on the chick.
Uh, we're here talking withChris Cree from 56 Degrees, the
only master of wine in NewJersey.
That's just absolutely the besttitle in the whole world, but
Francis (08:40):
it's actually a real title.
He gets with letters after I,yeah, you get to throw the
letters around.
That's really cool man.
Mark (08:45):
That's, I was gonna ask you
Francis (08:46):
people have to bow down now.
Mark (08:47):
I was gonna put mu a master of the universe right
after my name, just see.
See if that would fly.
If I'm the first one though,don't they?
I automatically have to gimmethe title.
Francis (08:55):
Alright, well as much as I've enjoyed the ridiculous
banter so far, Chris, a seriousquestion for young people today.
I mean, when you went into thisnow, now there's the other
degree program, which is themaster sommelier degree.
Right?
And how many master sommelierare there, do you know?
Chris (09:07):
I don't know.
Um.
I have to say note
Francis (09:10):
to self, get a different guest significantly
more.
But there are more mastersdegrees.
There are more, I think, but
Chris (09:14):
no, but not a
Francis (09:15):
lot more.
How do No, no, no.
So they're both very rare andvery respected degrees, very
prestigious degrees.
Um, what do you think is thedifference between the MS degree
and the MW degree?
Chris (09:22):
Right.
I would agree.
Both high level degrees, toplevel, and the wine trade.
I think other than perhaps ifyou're going to be an enologist
or a a, they're gonna make one adifferent, yeah, a very specific
degree.
But they, the master of wine, Ithink looks more broadly at the
production.
The sale, the marketing, sort ofthe business of wine.
Mm-hmm.
From Grapevine, from planningvineyard to getting it to the
(09:44):
shelves of, of wherever it'snot, or to the consumer,
including the social issues,the.
Um, and again, the businessfinance, shipping, regulatory
and all that kind of stuff thatgoes along with the wine
business, whereas the, themaster sommelier, I think
focuses on the end game.
There is on the, is on theservice of wine in the service
environment and we have commonareas of study.
(10:05):
Obviously a lot of the sameblind tasting techniques, a lot
of the same knowledge aboutwine, wine regions, wine
production are are similar.
They're similar to both.
But I would say that's adifferent service on one side
and sort of the business of wineon the other.
Francis (10:19):
one of the great things about our job, I mean, we run
Stage Left Restaurant indowntown New Brunswick.
We also do a lot of consulting,especially on wine for other
restaurants and the like.
And one of the, the greatest,uh, pleasures for us is that we
have, in that 12 years, we'vebeen open, encountered a lot of
people at 18 or 19 years old.
And, and we hire a lot of peoplewithout experience.
So if you know an intelligent,hardworking young person who
(10:39):
wants to break into therestaurant industry, send them
to stage left.com and.
And have them fill out anapplication.
Um, but so we tend to have ouremployees with us for a, a
number of years and a few ofthem have gone on to pursue
careers in the restaurantbusiness and the wine business.
And it's great to have so manypeople you meet at 19 and that
remain your friends when they're27, 28 years old.
What advice do you give, toyoung people who decide to
(11:02):
pursue a career in wine?
I mean, do you suggest theypursue a degree?
Do you think the landscape haschanged where that's necessary?
Chris (11:08):
I think that, uh, you, you can only be well served by
learning as much as you can, uh,in whatever field you pursue.
Yeah.
Whether it's the wine businessor something else.
So I definitely, uh, encourage,uh, and I, and I go through the
same thing.
I get young people that come inor that wanna learn about wine
and perhaps get into the career,but I, I definitely encourage,
formal classes, whether it's a,you know, the certificate,
(11:30):
higher certificate, but startsomeplace.
But I also think that if you'rereally gonna do it, you've got
a, you've got a taste.
You've gotta read, you've gottado a lot on your own and, and
travel.
So it's not really a bad recipe.
Travel to wine country is fun,but I think it's essential.
Speaker 4 (11:45):
Yeah, that's, uh, if
Chris (11:45):
you're really gonna get a rounded, um, background and work
in, if you can, in differentaspects of the business, um,
and, and get a feel for, youknow, try to get a broad
experience in the
Mark (11:54):
business's and
Chris (11:55):
maybe restaurant retail.
Wholesale, you know, maybeimport.
Mark (11:58):
It's funny how the landscape has changed over the
last, uh, 15 or so years.
I remember, uh, graduatingcollege and, got a job for a
very brief time in the, in themore real world and afterwards,
uh, decided that the restaurantbusiness was gonna be my life
and what I really enjoyed.
My mother had to lie to mygrandmother to tell her I was
still working, uh, at a, for aninsurance company as a
(12:20):
statistician for Blue Cross BlueShield.
You know, just because mygrandmother would be ashamed
that I, that I had wasted mycollege education and my college
years and I.
And, uh, you know, now there's,there are are ways to make this
a respectable Yeah.
Adult profession.
Francis (12:36):
Do you, do you think, Chris, that the landscape
overall in wine shops, and let'stalk about specifically in
Jersey,'cause we know it has inSan Francisco and New York, but
do you think that landscape haschanged when you go into, are
you finding more wine shops thatyou can go in and find an
intelligent young person whoreally knows what they're
talking about?
Or When you go to restaurants inJersey, you find more enthusiasm
and knowledge among youngpeople.
Chris (12:54):
Uh, I think there is actually than earlier on.
Um, it seemed to me that it'snot where you'd hope it would
be.
Speaker 4 (13:00):
Right.
Right.
Chris (13:00):
And I'm not sure why that is, but I think there is more
enthusiasm.
I think there's more creativity.
Um, than there, than there usedto be.
I mean, if you think 10, 15years ago when there was none,
no, there was none.
I mean, there were wine shopscarried jug wines and you know,
they were liquor stores.
Yep.
Mark (13:16):
Some wine shops still are like that, Chris.
Chris (13:17):
Well that's true.
And some restaurants degrees inBurnsville, New Jersey, however,
is that correct?
That's right.
Um, and restaurants too, but Ithink there are more young
people that are finding theirway into the, into the business
and that's good.
I think.
Francis (13:30):
No, I think it's fabulous.
Yeah.
Um, I, I also think that, youknow, while New Jersey may not
be at the same level, because alot of people who are attracted
to this move to New York or SanFrancisco to sort of apply their
trade, um, you know, as aconsumer, I always recommend
that people, you know, they askthe person a question, maybe
even a question they know theanswer to, and you sort of judge
and you know, when someone'sfull of it and someone really
(13:51):
knows what they're talkingabout.
But I, I, you know, Icongratulate you, uh, for doing
on the retail end what we hopewe're doing on the restaurant
end, and bringing someprofessionalism and knowledge.
To the field.
Great.
Mark (14:01):
Well, thank you.
Yeah.
Chris, we just wanna say thanksvery much and, uh, you've been
listening to Chris Cree from 56Degrees on the restaurant guys
with Mark Pascal and FrancisShot.
Francis (14:09):
And we'll, uh, direct some people to your website.
If you wanna find out more aboutChris Cree, uh, you can go to
restaurant guys radio.com,
Mark (14:17):
we were just talking to Chris Cree about restaurant
degrees and uh, and again,becoming professionals in this
business, which, uh, sometimesis.
Is looked on with a little bitof disdain from the masses.
I don't, I don't have a degree
Francis (14:29):
in wine.
I have a college degree, but,um, I'm a professional and you
know, it's interesting, mark,you related a story in the last
segment about how yourgrandmother couldn't be told
that you were still in therestaurant business.
'cause So I actually opened myown restaurant, right?
'cause your mother was ashamed.
Now, um, you know, I had asimilar story and I remember
that when I, um, at the dinnertable, I, I mentioned that we
were going to open.
(14:49):
A restaurant, uh, and let's justsay it was met with a deafening
silence.
You know, I come from a longline of Irish Catholic, uh, cops
and firemen, so no one had evergone into business before, and
certainly not the restaurantbusiness.
And I think, I don't know, youknow, this, this world,
especially in the way we do it,and it's not, look, we have a
very expensive restaurant, okay?
We have a very high endrestaurant, but that's not the
only area where you can beprofessional.
(15:11):
I think what's interesting iseven when our restaurant used to
be more casual years ago.
We were very professional aboutwhat we did in the middle genre
of, of food.
we cared about what we did.
We deal with small producers andwe provide a unique thing.
And the, you know, the travelopportunities that we've gotten
from buying wine and sellingwine and going to source cheese
products in Europe.
Well, it is tax deductible.
(15:31):
I know.
That's great.
You should all open arestaurant.
There's more tax deductibletravel involved.
Um.
But you know, who wouldn't wannado this?
I mean, yeah, the hours arecrazy.
We're a little bit insane.
Um, I think anybody
Mark (15:41):
sane wouldn't wanna do this as Yeah, you're right.
Francis (15:43):
Answer.
But, but what I'm saying is thatyou can do it with a level of
professionalism, and thatdoesn't necessarily mean in an
expensive place.
Mark (15:49):
Well, you know, o over the years we've, we've gotten to,
uh, kind of change the way we dothings.
You know, like you alluded to aminute ago, the restaurant's
gotten kind of bigger and betterand more expensive and all those
things, but things I tell everysingle person who works for me.
Is, I don't care what you'redoing.
I don't care if you're serving acheeseburger.
I don't care if you're serving,you know, fo gra, it doesn't
(16:11):
matter.
Always do everything you can tothe best of your capabilities.
And that's not just in the winebusiness, it's in everything you
do.
Whether you're doing a radioshow, whether you're doing, uh,
uh, statistician for Blue CrossBlue Shield, it doesn't matter.
We should,
Francis (16:23):
we should do the radio show a little better, I think.
Mark (16:25):
Yeah.
Okay.
We'll work on that.
We'll, we'll get better, wepromise.
We'll do the best we can.
Francis (16:29):
Well, you know, and the thing is, it's what is amazing,
I find in Jersey and all around.
I am seeing young people today,and we've had some incredible
people that have come to workfor us, that still work for us.
And some people have worked forus for a number of years.
Some have stayed in thebusiness, some have gone on to
other businesses.
But this is really a place wherepeople hone their skills, they
have a real job.
And that also goes back to the,to the dining public.
(16:49):
I mean, let's face it, you, youdon't have these kind of
careers.
If you don't have a marketthat's ready to say, oh, okay,
what kind of fancy cheese do youhave?
What kind of small producer doyou have?
So that it goes all around.
Mark (16:58):
Very nice finding those restaurant professionals.
Well, it's been a, a nice littlesegment here.
Uh, next we'll be talking toJohn Fisher.
author of.
Book at your service and aprofessor at, CIA Culinary
Institute of America in Service,and actually a very, very old
friend of mine in Francis's.
Yeah.
Francis (17:15):
He's like 106.
No, that's not, not that oldnow.
That's a horrible joke, isn'tit?
Yeah.
Really.
And John, John and Mark and Ihave been friends for a long
time.
We, we were in a lunch clubtogether, it lasted for about 10
years, called the Red Meat Club.
It was full of restaurateurs,chefs, wine buyers, and other
crazy people who would meet foron the second Monday of every
month and eat red meat rare.
And drink red wine.
And.
Boy, that was a lot of fun.
John (17:35):
John, are you there?
I'm sorry, I can't hear you.
I'm too old.
Yeah,
Francis (17:40):
no, it was too much red meat in the days.
John (17:42):
Lemme put my hearing aids
Francis (17:44):
in, put my
John (17:45):
cane down.
Francis (17:46):
So John, you decided to grow up and become a professor
and write a book?
Well, that,
John (17:52):
that, that didn't happen just as a, a conscious decision.
It was just a, um, actually itwas a bit of a decision.
I, when I was a student at theCulinary Institute way back in
the, in the late eighties.
I realized that at some point Iwanted to go back to the, to my
alma mater to teach.
And, um, but it came true.
Um, after 12 years in Manhattan,I realized that it, it might be
(18:13):
a good time for me to go up toHyde Park, start teaching
students the things that I hadtaught myself.
And also perhaps start a writingcareer and both of which have
come true.
Mark (18:21):
I just presume somebody bet you at 4:00 AM that you
wouldn't do it.
John (18:24):
No.
No.
Although I tell you, when astudent calls me professor, I
still look behind me to see whothey're talking to.
Francis (18:29):
You know, if a student called you professor, I would
look at back the room.
I would look behind.
Um, uh, so professor, um, well,lemme get my pipe.
Why don't you, and why don't youtell us, tell, I mean, I know.
Why don't you tell the people inthe audience the places, the
fabulous places you worked inManhattan when you worked there.
You have a pretty broadexperience actually working in
the business.
John (18:47):
Well, yeah, I've worked in a lot of different kinds of
places.
Um, my first place that I wentto right out of cooking school
was, um, the Hudson River Clubin downtown Manhattan.
The World Financial Center.
Francis (18:57):
Yeah.
John (18:58):
Um, with Waldi Molo, who's also a culinary grad, and now at
Beacon Restaurant on 56thStreet.
Francis (19:03):
Mm-hmm.
Manhattan.
John (19:04):
So I worked with him for, um, a good three years, going
from assistant manager,eventually up to general manager
and along the way gettingresponsibility for the wine list
and the beverage department aswell.
Um, after that.
I ended up at Mondrian with Tomcio, um, who's the chef at
Gramercy Tavern, and the ownerand chef at Craft, um, went to a
fish restaurant after that, the,uh, Manhattan Ocean Club with a
(19:27):
last name Fisher.
You kind of get, yeah,
Francis (19:29):
yeah.
John (19:29):
Um, and then eventually wandered over to the world of
Italian restaurants and went toCampan.
Um, which was a pretty hot placefor a while with Mark
Straussman,
Francis (19:38):
and at that time actually you served me the best,
uh, plate of polenta withtruffles and an egg in the
middle that I'd ever had in mylife.
I still dream about that dish.
That's such an amazing dish.
Yeah, it really was.
John (19:47):
It's still the best truffle dish that I shamelessly.
We
Mark (19:49):
rip it off at left every truffle season.
It's still the best truffle dishthat I've ever had.
Yeah,
John (19:54):
and you should only let people eat it with a spoon.
Boons are sexier than forks.
Francis (19:58):
I agree.
You can't eat polenta like thatwith a fork.
No.
Well, so John, what'sinteresting though, I mean that
that's a pretty stellar a bit ofexperience to take back to the
CIA, which is the preeminentculinary school, certainly in
America.
Um.
And, but you are focused onfront of the house, whereas I
think historically, most of thepeople from CIA have been back
of the house people, chefs, linecooks, people like that.
(20:19):
And back when you were, were,you knew you wanted to go into
the front of the house, yet youwent to CIA.
How did that all happen?
John (20:26):
Yeah.
Well, my, my first job in thebusiness, I was 24 and I was
working at the Chart house inDobbs Ferry, which at that point
was a great chain of, of steakand seafood restaurants.
Sure.
Very simple.
Remember the one.
We got to wear Hawaiian shirtswhere, which is where that
obsession of mine started.
Francis (20:40):
Oh my,
John (20:41):
yeah, I know.
Horrible.
Um, we have them to blame.
Yeah.
Um, but when I was there, Irealized that I was in my mid
twenties and there were a bunchof 18 year olds who had been in
the business for at least sixyears.
And I had to catch up to themin, um, in the knowledge area.
And so I decided to, um, infact, the guy that I used to
butcher with at the steakhousewas a culinary graduate and
said, if you wanna learn aboutthe restaurant business, you
(21:03):
have to go to the culinary.
And so I applied and got in as aperson who was planning to stay
in the front of the house, in,in the dining room and, and work
in beverage.
But wanted to learn how to cookso I could be a better manager.
Francis (21:15):
That's a pretty awesome commitment.
I mean, you, you have people whowanna be in the front of the
house to go to ccia a now, butthat was, that was unusual back.
Yeah.
Back then you were, you were a aI was a rarer.
The few the
John (21:24):
proud, I was the only coffee slapper that I knew.
Francis (21:27):
I knew there was a nickname for it.
Coffee slapper.
John (21:29):
Is that what they call me?
The slapper?
Francis (21:30):
That's us.
Yeah.
That's us boys.
Yikes.
That's a very bizarre thing.
I'm a trained barista, and sonow, and so now you've gone
back.
I, I hope you're a barista.
A barista, yeah.
Mark's not so good.
The Italian, the French.
Anyway, but so you, now you'vegone back to ccia a to teach,
and do you primarily teach frontof the house skills, wine
skills, things like that, thatyou My,
John (21:50):
my, my primary, um, appointment, I'm working in the
French restaurant, which is a, aformal French restaurant called
the Escal Room, Uhhuh.
And, you know, haul, definitelywe twirl our mustache.
Those are scoffing, everything.
Francis (22:02):
That's them.
John (22:02):
Um, I had to grow the mustache to be able to twirl it.
Francis (22:05):
Oh.
John (22:06):
Um, but anyway, that's a topic.
Francis (22:07):
Yeah.
We,
John (22:07):
um, we, we serve very classic formal French food.
We have dopa soul and, and all,you know, the, the lamb chops
don't have any fat on'em andthings like that.
Very, very hoity-toity food, butin obviously an American
restaurant.
So I teach students how to deoneover soul and, and set food on
fire on purpose.
Um, like without,
Francis (22:27):
without the tablecloth also going up.
Right.
Right.
And
John (22:29):
I tell the students that if the little red trucks come,
they fail for the day.
That's exactly.
Um, but teaching them some ofthe basics of, of true formal
dining service that they're notgonna, they're not gonna learn
anywhere else.
Mm-hmm.
Francis (22:40):
And that's
John (22:40):
in fact why most students.
Choose the French restaurantover the American restaurant to
work in.
It's because they're not gonnabe able to learn this stuff
anywhere else.
Francis (22:48):
So John, you teach, uh, what you're saying is that when
people, the students have achoice to work in the American
restaurant for part of it, or towork in the French restaurant
for part of it, and they choosethe French restaurant because.
What I'm understanding you tosay is that they'll learn skills
there that they may or may notuse in the American restaurant,
whereas working in the Americanrestaurant, there's a less
formal set of skills that youlearn.
It's a
John (23:07):
less formal set of skills.
It's still, um, the samecurriculum.
It's called Advanced TableService, uhhuh,
Francis (23:12):
but
John (23:12):
they just have a more modern approach.
You know, it's more like goingto Oreo as opposed to La Caravel
or something.
Francis (23:19):
Right.
Right.
John (23:20):
Um.
And so we do, we do teach'emthings, um, at at the same
level.
But obviously being in a Frenchrestaurant, um, we have to have
the accent.
You have to learn the word.
You
Francis (23:30):
do not.
Everybody's making that up.
He's making that up.
John Fisher mustache was badenough.
I got your name, I got yournumber.
John (23:36):
Anyway, so we do teach them some skills that they might
even never.
Have to use again in the fieldbecause restaurants where you
have tableside service aredisappearing.
Um, but I equate it to teachingLatin in high school.
Francis (23:49):
Right.
It's the basics.
It's where it all comes
John (23:51):
from.
I couldn't agree more.
You don't speak Latin, but itmakes you better on jeopardy,
you know?
Francis (23:54):
Yeah.
Well that wasn't exactly theanalogy that I was going for
John, but I, but I accept theanalogy.
Okay.
Um, and do you, do you spend alot of time teaching people
about wine
John (24:03):
up
Francis (24:03):
there?
John (24:04):
Um, we do, um, spend a good, um, day and a half on, um,
French wine in my class, but thestudents have already had a
three week comprehensive wineclass that is one of the hardest
classes in the school.
Um, because they have to learnthe world of wine in three
weeks.
And, you know, we've beenspending.
How many years teachingourselves and learning about it
(24:24):
and to learn the entire world ofwine in three weeks is obviously
ims an impossible feat.
Francis (24:28):
So are you saying that after you've had your student
for three weeks, they know asmuch as I do about wine or more.
John (24:32):
Um, possibly more, but they just don't show it as much.
Francis (24:35):
Yeah,
John (24:36):
yeah.
They don't talk about it.
They're not as secure in theirknowledge as you are.
Mark (24:39):
Thank you.
Well, Francis is very secure inhis knowledge, that's for sure.
John (24:43):
Yeah.
I'm not shy.
Um, I'm, I'm, I'm extremelyinsecure.
That's why I'm a teacher.
Francis (24:45):
Actually, you should also know that John is one of
the most wine knowledgeablepeople that I have come across,
uh, in, in my travels, and we'vedone together.
Five bucks
John (24:51):
coming your way.
Shot.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
So I do teach wine to, to mystudents, but I also teach some
wine classes to, um, some of ourcontinuing education classes
where professionals are comingin outta the field for short
classes and I'll teach them, um,whatever aspect of wine they
need to learn for their class ofItalian or French or, or wine
and food matching.
So, um, whatever they need me todo, I'm a hired gun.
(25:14):
Terrific for that department.
Mark (25:15):
Uh, John, tell us a little bit about your book.
John (25:18):
Um, well, it's a book on, it's a, it's a practical guide
to, um, dining room service.
Um, it just doesn't seem likethere are very many of them
around with, with lists of whatthey have, um, for setup and
things like that, but also someinformation on how.
The dining room and the kitchenneed to relate, um, the
relationship between the frontof the house and the back of the
(25:38):
house.
Which as we know asprofessionals is incredibly
important and a little bit onbeverage.
It's basically a, a, an overviewof, um, dining room service.
Francis (25:47):
Is this a book that, is pretty much for use in culinary
schools or should everyrestaurant buy one?
Or would it be, would people whoare not in the restaurant
business find it interesting?
John (25:57):
Oh, well, I would say every man, woman, and child in
the United States should
Francis (26:00):
buy one.
Okay.
If you weren't making any moneyoff the book, what would you
say?
Okay.
John (26:03):
Um, well, it's intended, as a textbook.
At least.
At least the original, uh,proposal was for a textbook for
culinary schools and hospitalityschools.
But I'm thinking that it mightbe a good thing.
For a lot of restaurateurs whomaybe taught themselves how to
do it,
Mark (26:19):
uhhuh
John (26:19):
a lot of mom and pop places
Mark (26:21):
and, and maybe taught themselves incorrectly.
Is that what, is that whatyou're alluding to?
Yeah.
Well,
John (26:24):
potentially, but also there are lots of things that
you, you, you, you two know aswell as I do that we figured a
lot of this stuff out on ourown,
Francis (26:30):
right?
Mm-hmm.
John (26:30):
You know, and someone has a, has a, a fainting spell and
you don't know how to deal withit.
Um, you, you make it up on thespot.
Right.
But this book does actually havesome suggestions for how to deal
with, emergencies, as well as, alot of other information on how
to run the dining room.
How to, you know, how to takereservations, um, what the
important things are at thedoor.
Um, basically every aspect ofthe dining room is covered, at
(26:53):
least to a certain degree.
And as I mentioned before, thebreak, um, what, what I think
one of the most valuablechapters is, is the relationship
between the dining room and thekitchen because it's so, it's
been historically so poor in ourbusiness that where the kitchen
hated the front, and the fronthated the kitchen.
Sure.
Well, it,
Mark (27:09):
it's, you know, you have two very different personality
types.
One who works and chooses towork in the kitchen.
Yeah.
One who chooses to work in thefront of
Francis (27:16):
house.
And you're so right John, thatthe management of the
restaurant, our job is to makesure that they have a smooth
relationship.
Yeah.
And that, and because, becausein a restaurant where you are,
you are encouragingprofessionalism.
You are all working toward thesame end.
You're not all there just tocollect a paycheck, you know,
and the waitress hates to cook,and the cook hates the wait,
check, wait.
And the chef throws a pot atsomebody that's got to, that has
(27:37):
no place in a professionalrestaurant.
John (27:38):
No.
And, and I think one, one thingthat's interesting is that a lot
of, a lot of people will say,well, the good old days,
everybody hated each other.
Francis (27:44):
Right.
John (27:44):
Um, which I don't think is necessarily true because I think
the truly great restaurants.
Always had a good relationshipbetween the front and the back.
Sure.
Mark (27:51):
Because, well, you need each other.
Yeah.
I mean, a, a great chef whosefood is presented poorly,
doesn't show very well.
Right.
A, a a great waiter who hashorrible food to deal with or,
or can't accommodate thecustomer is, is gonna have
problems and, and never show asa great waiter.
John (28:08):
Yeah.
I tell, I tell my my studentsthat, you know, if you look at
the restaurant as if it were astereo system.
The waiters are the speaker, youknow, that's where the sound
comes out.
And if you have the, uh, theequipment in the back of the
kitchen and it's not so hot,whatever comes out of the
speaker is still gonna be bad.
Francis (28:23):
Right?
Right.
But
John (28:24):
everything has to be the same quality and work together.
And you know, I've found that,that by, by learning how to
cook, I've almost gained instantrespect, almost un undeserved
from a lot of chefs that I knowand that I've worked with.
Mark (28:36):
Any respect you get is undeserved, John.
I agree.
Francis (28:38):
Uh, but beyond that, um, because since you are a
guest and we have to be leastsilly, can
John (28:42):
somebody get this knife outta my back?
Francis (28:45):
What?
No.
You had, you've had a lot ofexperience teaching restaurant
professionals, John, um, whatare the things that you just.
Can't teach in school.
'cause there are aspects of ourbusiness that you just, you
know, you need exp I, we hire alot of CIA graduates and they're
great and we love the programand when we get really well
prepared people for an entrylevel job, but you don't walk
outta Ccia a a My problem withCIA is a lot of people walk out
(29:06):
and wanna be sous chef rightaway.
And like, I graduated from CIA,so I should be able to be the
general manager of therestaurant.
And that just doesn't fly.
What are the things?
Well, luckily
John (29:12):
I think that's.
Decreased a lot in the last 10years.
Yes.
I think when I was a studentthere, it was really bad.
CIA ego was definitely a, aphenomenon that was fed by the
school.
But somewhere along the way werealized that that was not the
way students should be leaving.
Francis (29:26):
Mm-hmm.
John (29:26):
And now they're much more, um.
Um, I hope they're much more,um, humble than they were.
Francis (29:32):
I love hiring CIA grads down.
I really do.
But what are the things that youcan't teach in school that you
can't learn from reading a bookthat really only come with
working in a restaurant for 10years or seven years?
Well,
John (29:41):
one thing that I don't think even comes from working in
a restaurant is in the words ofour, our dear friend Dale Degra.
You know, I could teach a guy tomake a drink, but I can't teach
'em to be nice.
Francis (29:49):
Yeah, Dale's the, the probably the most famous
bartender in the world who isalso a mutual friend of ours.
Yeah.
And also nice and also nice guy.
John (29:55):
Very, very important friends, don't we?
Yeah.
I just, let's pat
Francis (29:58):
each other on the back.
Let's patting each other on theback.
I'm really enjoying it.
I
John (30:01):
can't pat myself.
I've got a knife back there.
Sorry.
Francis (30:03):
Well, you know, friends come hard now.
If you want more informationabout John Fisher and his book
and the CIA, uh, you can go toour website, which is restaurant
guys radio.com where we'll havemore information there.
Now, can our folks come up andvisit you at CIA John and maybe
have dinner there?
John (30:18):
Oh, sure.
We have four public restaurants.
There's the French restaurant Iwork in.
There's the American BountyRestaurant, which is, uh, fine
dining American cuisine.
Um, the Caterina Dei restaurantis our regional Italian
restaurant with n spot of redsauce.
It's actual real Italianregional food.
Um, then we have our, for lackof a better term, healthy
restaurant, the St.
Andrew's Cafe, which peoplealways say, ah, why go to the
(30:39):
culinary for a healthyrestaurant?
Got food, but the food's great.
Yeah.
And it's actually good for you.
Francis (30:44):
Well, all right, well, I'll go to the French place the
next time I come.
Uh, and, but you know, it's avery reasonably priced thing and
you make a reservation and it'sreally worth, if you live in
Jersey, it's actually reallyworth taking a ride up there.
It's beautiful country and it'sthe restaurant where the
professors like John areteaching the students.
And, uh, the prices areincredibly reasonable because
the idea is not for thoserestaurants to make money, but
(31:04):
the teacher suits and theservice, and the wine and the
food.
It's a
John (31:07):
classroom first and a restaurant
Francis (31:07):
second.
It's great stuff.
I
John (31:09):
dunno, I wanna do that.
If they look at our, ourwebsite, cia chef.edu.
Francis (31:13):
Great.
John (31:13):
Um, there's a lot of information about the
restaurants and then how to makereservations.
You can even make reservationson online now
Francis (31:19):
and we'll put a, we'll put a link, uh, to that on
restaurant guys radio.com.
Excellent.
Mark (31:22):
So John, uh, one of the things that we're gonna have to
do when we get off the air isset up, uh.
Luncheon for us to go out.
So we'll make sure we make thathappen next time you're down
this way.
Uh, we are very thankful to haveJohn Fisher from the ccia, a
professor at CIA.
That's correct.
And, uh, author of a book calledAt Your Service.
With us on the restaurant Guys,today, I'm Mark Pascal and with
(31:42):
my partner Francis Sch.
we'll be back in just a momentto wrap up with John Fisher,
Francis (31:48):
with all this talk of professionalism, John.
It's.
You know, it's, some of it isfun and games and I, and I wanna
relate.
I want to see, and while I haveyou on the line to verify that
fun, this actually happened backin the years when you were a
restaurant professional and arecent graduate of CIA.
I remember being out to lunchwith you one decadent afternoon
and after several bottles ofwine,
Mark (32:04):
I'm sure it was a red meat club meeting.
Francis (32:06):
You informed, you informed me and two other
friends that it was the CIAClass reunion.
Do you remember this day?
Oh yeah, yeah.
That was on the, the world.
What was that?
A yacht?
Some kind of oak?
Yeah.
No,
John (32:15):
well, it, it moved it around.
Ha.
But it was always on a red meatclub day.
'cause it was always on a red.
No, no, no.
But
Francis (32:19):
this particular day that Jaime Cordoba, we went with
Jaime Cordoba.
This, where was the, it was at,it was on a pier or something.
I don't know.
It was
John (32:25):
on one of the, uh, one of those restaurant ships.
Francis (32:27):
Yeah.
It's all a little fuzzy.
But, uh, we, he said, let's goto the ccia a, uh, class
reunion.
I was like, well, I didn't go toCcia a John.
He's like, it's fine.
You're Jaime Cordoba.
I said, I'm what?
He said, you're Jaime Cordoba.
I was like, he's like, I went toschool.
Jaime.
You're Jaime, and you gavesomebody else another name and I
think it was me that was Jaime.
And
John (32:44):
for those of people listening, you don't exactly
look like a Jaime Cordova.
No.
What, well, what's funny is he,the Irish guy from just
Francis (32:50):
tell him, tell him when you get there that you're high
maker over.
So we got to the, to the, to theadmittance counter and they, and
they said Name, and John said,uh, John Fisher.
And they gave him a name tag andthey said, name.
Said a little bit after I had alittle bit of one.
I said, my name is Jaime Cordovaand it was a fabulous party.
We did have fun, didn't we?
Yeah, that was really a lot offun.
Mark (33:09):
I think it was the party before, before the party where
you guys had most of your fun.
Francis (33:12):
So, so back, back.
On a serious note, John, do youthink that that restauranting
in, in America is becoming moreprofessional, that you're seeing
more young people learning aboutfood and wine and doing this as
a career?
John (33:21):
Well, I think more of our graduates definitely.
I know that more of ourgraduates now are going into the
front of the house as opposed tothe kitchen.
Francis (33:28):
Um,
John (33:28):
I think there are plenty of good cooks out there now, and
I think a lot of our graduates,especially the ones who are
graduating with, graduating witha bachelor's degree, are heading
for management rather than goinginto line cook positions.
Francis (33:38):
Mm-hmm.
John (33:39):
Um, although we still need our line
Francis (33:40):
cooks.
What's that?
Although we still need thoseline cooks.
Oh, I know that.
John (33:43):
We do.
We definitely need them.
But after having spent, youknow, a hundred grand on college
Francis (33:47):
Yeah.
There
John (33:47):
aren't a lot of students who wanna make 12 bucks an hour.
Francis (33:49):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um,
John (33:51):
but also those jobs are opening up to them.
And with the bachelor's degrees,we have students going now
instead of going to some of themid-level hotels.
And the companies, they'reactually going to the Four
Seasons and Ritz Carlton, thebest hotel that's right in the
world.
So they're stepping into middlemanagement positions with a
bachelor's degree.
And that's, that's a big changefrom when I was a student.
When you were either gonna be acook or you know, one person was
(34:12):
going to be a dining roomperson.
That was me.
Mark (34:14):
Well, thanks very much, John.
It, it's been great having youtoday.
I wanna thank you very much forElmo.
It's been great being here,spending the afternoon.
And uh, I also wanna thank ourearlier guest, Chris Cree from
56 Degrees in Burnsville, NewJersey.
Uh, that was John Fisher, authorof the book at your service.
You can find all thosethings@restaurantguideradio.com.
Have a good afternoon, centralJersey 1450.
(34:36):
Time is 12 noon.
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