Drew Nieporent is Not Trying to be Difficult

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
the-restaurant-guys_8_10- (00:59):
Hello everybody and welcome.
You are listening to theRestaurant Guys.
I'm Mark Pascal and I'm herewith Francis Shot.
Together we own stage left in KaLombardi restaurants in New
Brunswick, New Jersey.
We're here to bring you theinside track on food, wine, and
the finer things in life.
Hey there, mark.
Hey Francis.
How you doing?
I'm doing great.
We have Drew Por coming on theshow later.
Yeah, he's awesome.
We loved dream porn.

(01:20):
He's awesome.
Porn is a restaur, not a chef,but he had.
When we were young babyrestaurateurs, and he's about 10
years older than us, and we'vealways looked up to him.
But yeah, he's, he's always beena role model for us.
Never had the opportunity totalk to him at length, but now
we've got him a captive for anhour.
It's gonna be great.
But I know that we were talkingabout before the show about a
little trick we picked up fromhim.

(01:41):
Oh yeah.
A little trick you picked upfrom him?
Yes.
But early on when we opened upand when he opened up,
reservations were taken.
By a person who was in therestaurant who had to answer the
phones, and we only had 17tables.
That was the deal.
And those, we had 17 tableshere, and those phones were
attached to the wall with awire, and next to the phone on

(02:03):
the desk with the wall with awire was a piece of paper.
And it was big eight 11 by 17and a grid on it with all the
table numbers.
Honey, need little writing.
And that was our reservationbook and we had a problem.
Do you wanna tell the story,Marco?
No.
Okay.
Well, so I thought you would, Iguess I'm doing all carrying all
your water, but yeah, that's agood, that's a good change.

(02:23):
So, so in the beginning wewould.
We were very popular.
Restaurant 50 seats right outtathe gate.
We got outta the gate.
We got some good reviews.
Can't get a reservation rightoutta the, we were good.
And, and mind you you'd havesomeone come in early to start
answering the phones.
Mm-hmm.
You'd have the answering amachine on overnight.
So the first thing, you'd haveto come in for an hour and
return the calls from the nightbefore while new calls are

(02:44):
coming in.
Do you remember the, it was a,it was a cassette tape.
Yes, yes.
It was a cassette tape backthen, but the, you'd be playing
the messages back and then, thenwe had like five lines.
The new line would come in.
It was, so we had five machines,one on each line.
It was crazy, crazy time.
And we only had a few seats.
Mm-hmm.
I mean, and we weren't beingsnobs, we just didn't have that
many seats, 50 seats.
And uh, so we'd be booked upweeks in advance.

(03:06):
Again, 50 seat restaurant nextdoor to an 1800 seat theater and
a 600 seat theater.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So lots of people wanted to cometo dinner here.
So occasionally people wouldscam us.
Now, we're young Restaur.
Occasionally we'd make amistake.
Mm-hmm.
So people would stop like, I'mhere for the Johnson
reservation.
Yeah.
And you'd be like.
Johnson, I don't have a Johnson,you know, and you can't like

(03:28):
control F Johnson in yourreservation book.
See if somebody put it on thewrong night or whatever.
So.
Well, you know, there were acouple different tricks.
One was look down at thereservation page and see
somebody's name and say, that'syour name.
Right, right.
Okay.
That was one.
And I have a story about thatone.
You're done.
Uh, and then the other one was.
I made a reservation.
Yeah.
Walk in with bluster, just withconfidence, you know?

(03:48):
And so I have, and so Drew didthis because he had, in his much
busier New York City restaurant,he had reservationists.
Mm-hmm.
That was their job, was toanswer the phone and take
reservations.
There were two women who did itfor him.
Yep.
say if somebody came in that hethought they were scamming them,
he'd say, uh, I'm sorry, I don'thave a, oh.
Wait a second.
What did, did a gentleman takeyour reservation on the phone

(04:11):
and the person would go?
Uh, yes.
Yes.
It was a gentleman.
Invariably they would say yes,it was a gentleman.
Yeah.
And well, if they were scammingyou and he'd say, oh, that must
be a different restaurant.
We don't have any gentleman,take reservations.
Goodbye.
And so we did the same thing.
We, we made an edict in therestaurant.
Mm-hmm.
No one was allowed to take areservation, but Mark and
Francis.
Yep.
What a crazy thing that was forus.

(04:31):
Well, that, you know, was theonly seats.
We were here every day.
We there, there was no reason wecouldn't.
Right.
But no one was allowed.
So if the, you called duringservice and I wasn't there, they
had to take a message and I'dcall you back.
Mm-hmm.
It ended the problem becausepeople would come in and they'd
say, oh, Smith, party of two atsix o'clock.
I'm like, oh, I don't have aparty of two.
Oh wait, did you make thatreservation with a woman?

(04:51):
As if like, there's some idiotwoman who makes a mistake all
the time for us.
Yeah.
And they'd be like, oh yes.
And he'd be like, yeah, wellthat, that's not us.
Sorry.
What?
I remember the first time ithappened, you said.
Oh, it must be a differentrestaurant.
Sorry.
Because we don't have, we don'thave women to take our
reservations.
I did.
That's great.
I, I mean, I I Do you haveanything?
No, no.
We don't.
Trial LA Law.
So what's your story?

(05:11):
So my story is, it's the firsttheater season.
So we opened in May theater,opened in in September.
So it's the first theaterseason, and we realize what's
happening now, right?
We're booking at 5 30, 6o'clock.
Everybody gets up at quarter toeight.
We're re-seeding the wholerestaurant at eight o'clock and
it's 17 tables at five 30.
17 tables at eight o'clock.

(05:32):
What?
And on Thursday, Friday,Saturday, you'd re-seed it again
at nine 30.
Exactly, so in a normalrestaurant, I realize a lot of
people don't, don't realizethis, but if something goes
wrong, somebody stays 15 minuteslate.
Well, another table got up 15minutes early and, and when your
seating happens that it's 20people at five 30 and 20 people
at six o'clock and 20 people at6 30, 20 people at seven

(05:54):
o'clock, there's a little bitmore fudge factor and nobody's
gonna wait more than 15 minutesif you make a mistake.
Right?
Right.
But in this atmosphere, 5 38o'clock, they're not getting up
till late o'clock.
So somebody comes in, says hi,looks at, the reservation book
and say, I'm Mr.
Johnson and.
Takes the table and sits down.
I'll never forget who they were.

(06:15):
It was Steve and Jean and youknow them.
And they are and and Oh yeah.
And they still come in today andthey were last.
Okay.
And they came in last when everytable was already sat and they
said, we have a reservation.
And I looked at them I knew thatthey actually had a reservation.
But I knew that they weretelling the truth, and I turned

(06:35):
to them and I was just like, I,I'm so sorry.
We've made a mistake.
There is no table here for youtonight.
Hmm.
And, and so now you'remortified.
Now I'm waiting for these peopleto just lash out at me like, you
know, I made this reservation.
How could you not honor it?
Blah, blah, blah.
And I'll, and I'll never forgetthis, and I never forgot them

(06:55):
for this.
Steve turned to me and said.
Oh, that's all right.
We'll go someplace else.
Thanks.
We'll try another night.
And they did.
And.
In 33 years, have they been here500 times since then?
Yeah.
At least.
That's great.
Uh, it's such a wonderful storyand it, and I told them the
story 10 years later, like, Hey,I remember.

(07:15):
Did they remember that day?
Uh, yeah, they did.
Yeah, they did.
Nice people.
Uh, very nice people.
What a, what a wonderful way tolet me off the hook in that way.
I never forgot them.
Yeah.
I, I, it's 33 years LA yearslater.
I'm telling the same story rightnow on our podcast.
That's, that's, that'sbeautiful.
You're gonna make me cry.
I don't think I'm gonna make youcry.

(07:36):
Alright.
You don't cry unless I hit youwith something.
I, if I had not heard that storybefore, it is a touching story,
especially since I know whothose guys are.
So Steve and Jean, thanks.
Um, listen, we're gonna comeright back with Drew Newport on
the other side, one of the mostimportant restaurateurs in
America, one of the mostimportant restaurateurs of his
generation, and an inspirationto us.
We will be back in just amoment.

(07:57):
You can find out more aboutus@restaurantguyspodcast.com
threw you off there, didn't I?
You hug my hand.
I reached out and held my hand.
It was creepy in.

the-restaurant-guys_5_10-09- (08:09):
So our guest today is Drew Por.
He is a legendary restaurateurfrom Montrachet to Tribeca
Grillca Grill Grilled Corton inNew York, Rubicon on the west
coast, and Nobus everywhere with40 restaurant openings under his
belt.
Working with celebrities like DeNiro discovering, helping create
celebrity chefs like David Boleand Nobu.
and.
Innovating in the restaurantworld.
Drew has created and run someamazing restaurants and his

(08:31):
innovations have changed the wayAmericans eat and, the way
Americans restaurants run.
His wonderful new book is, I'mNot Trying to Be Difficult, not
sure he always succeeds at that,but he's someone we've always
looked up to and we couldn't bemore thrilled to have him with
us today on the restaurant cast.
Drew, welcome to the show.

squadcaster-33eh_1_10-09- (08:47):
Thank you.
It's good to be here guys.

if this were Francis' book, it
would read.
I'm trying to be difficult.
I'm not trying be difficult.

squadcaster-33eh_1_10-09- (08:57):
Well, kind of to set the record
straight so people ask me, uh,about the title and I, I'm very
honest.
I, I didn't, I had a differenttitle for my book and I thought
it was the greatest title ever,but, um, my wife nixed it and so
did my daughter.
So they came up with this title.
I didn't kind of like it at thebeginning and I didn't
understand it at at firstbecause you can't open 40

(09:19):
restaurants and be difficult.
You just can't.
But um, I read the audio book.
I read the book several times,but I read the audio book and
when I'm reading the audio bookI was like, you know, I get
this.
I said, um, they're difficultbeing the chefs and my partners,
but they think I'm difficult.

(09:41):
But I'm not trying to bedifficult.
They're difficult, you know?
So it's self, it's alright.
It's alright.

the-restaurant-guys_5_10-0 (09:49):
from your perspective.
So I think that the Restaur isalways the sensible one.
You know,

squadcaster-33eh_1_10-09-2 (09:54):
Yes, that's right.

the-restaurant-guys_5_10 (09:56):
think.
I think you can't open that manyrestaurants of the caliber that
you did drew, unless you aredifficult.
You know what I mean?
I think, mean, every time I walkinto a room, I adjust the
lights, the temperature, themusic.
Right, right.
You do.
Do you do that?

squadcaster-33eh_1_10-09- (10:12):
Yeah, but that's not being difficult.
But I mean, my, my, my thingabout difficult is like, when
you're like a contrarian, like,let's just say, um, it's
Mother's Day and you're open ona Sunday where you're not open,
normally open, and your chef'sgot three stars and he makes an
omelet that you could havegotten in a diner and it really

(10:34):
sucks.
So I'm like an umpire in abaseball game.
I go in the kitchen, I'm like,if one more fucking egg dish
comes out like that, I'mshutting it down.
Now that's difficult, right?
Okay.
But there's a purpose.
I mean, it was, it, it was adiner quality.

Yep.

squadcaster-33eh_1_10-09-20 (10:53):
Um, so I, I, get the difficult part.
I always find the compromise.
So, I did that when I was 29.
I would, today, I wouldn't dothat.
I would say, um, you know, thatarmor was a little, I think we'd
do better.
You know, I would just goaround.
I, so I wouldn't be difficult.
That's all.
That's all I'm saying.

the-restaurant-guys_5 (11:12):
something that Francis and I say all the
time is it's the restaurateur'sjob to fight every day for the
standards of the restaurant.

squadcaster-33eh_1_10-09 (11:21):
right.

And every day you come into work,
you're like, that's notslipping.
That's gonna get better.
That's, we gotta make thatbetter.
That can't get worse every day.
That's the everyday job.

squadcaster-33eh_1_10-09 (11:33):
Right.
But as you know, everybody hasto be on board.
In other words, the fish stinksfrom the head.
If you set the tone, they gottaagree or, or really, buy into
that standard.
The, the problems become whenit's a pulling tug.
You get a three star review andthe chef thinks, the three stars

(11:55):
are mine, not the restaurants,and I'm gonna go across the
street.
I'm gonna open anotherrestaurant, I'm gonna compete
with you.
That's when the, that's and alsosteal your staff.
So that's, that's, when theproblems, no,

love that.
One of the great stories, so oneof the great stories, we have a
lot of mutual acquaintance,

squadcaster-33eh_1_10-09- (12:11):
sure.

um, back in the, in the, in the
nineties when we first openedup.
Um, we were friends with MichaelCarlucci who worked for you at

squadcaster-33eh_1_10-09-2 (12:18):
Yes.

with Tracy Dutton, who worked for you
at Moishe.

squadcaster-33eh_1_10-09 (12:21):
Right.

the-restaurant-guys_5 (12:21):
Guillermo Nani worked for you years later
at Moishe,

squadcaster-33eh_1_10-09- (12:24):
Okay.

knew the inside baseball and we read
everything about you in your.
Well known in the industry.
And I want to talk about that,the, the scenario you just
painted.
'cause it was one of the thingsthat made you an early hero of
ours when you, you handled a, a,an unruly chef change in a
masterful way.
But what we were, I, I want toflesh out a little what we were
talking about a moment ago.
I think there's a difference'cause a lot of URS listened to

(12:47):
our show, you know, a lot ofpeople in the business think
that.
We've been fortunate enough tohave a lot of long-term staff,
but I think there are times whena dish may come outta the
kitchen or something may happenon the floor and you think, well
let, let me talk to the chef orthe sous chef who did this and
say, well, you know, what do youthink about that?
Is this what you really wantedto do?
And maybe there's a differencein vision, and it's gentle, like

(13:08):
you say, but sometimes the fishis.
that doesn't happen to us veryoften.
Or sometimes the, the bread isstale or sometimes the plate
wasn't clean.
And that's not the time whereyou beat around the bush.
That's the time when you go andyou say, okay, listen, we had a
mistake here and it can't happenagain.
the people who don't buy intothat part of the vision can't
stay in the organization, youknow?
you are a restaurateur who's nota chef, and you've had all these

(13:31):
restaurants and you worked withmany chefs and celebrities we're
restaur and we're not chefs.
And that seems to be less andless common since the nineties.
Right?
Everybody wants to, everybodywants to go to a chef driven
restaurant.

squadcaster-33eh_1_10-09- (13:42):
okay, so let's get into that for a
second.
So, number one, there's various,definitions of what makes a
restaurateur

Mm-hmm.

squadcaster-33eh_1_10-09-20 (13:50):
for me.
Being exposed to food at a veryearly age.
'cause I had a father who workedfor the State Liquor Authority
and he, he would take theapplication from the bottom of
the pile, put it on the top ofthe pile.
So the restaurateur were forevergrateful.
And they invited us, um, to eat,you know, at the restaurants.
And this is like literallyhundreds of French and Italian

(14:12):
and coffee shops and delis.
And, I had this amazingexposure, so I took to it
immediately.
So I knew I would be in food,but I wanted to be a chef.
my mother found out that Cornellhad a hotel school.
And I go, mom, you know,Cornell's an i Ivy League
school.
I'm 500 and a class of 700 atStuyvesant High School.
I get into Cornell.
I got into Cornell, okay.

(14:34):
And I got to Cornell.
And you know what?
It's the, it was the furthestthing from a hotel school that I
envisioned, you know, how tomake onion soup open a can, heat
it up, serve it.
I mean, it was, it wasridiculous.
Anyway, so restaurateur in myopinion, but the definition of a
real restaurateur is there's aschool of hard knocks and
there's the School of HotelAdministration.
It, it, you have to, you haveto, not everyone's gonna get

(14:56):
into the School of HotelAdministration, but you have to
get work experience,professional work experience,
and how can you call yourself arestaurateur?
Well, you live it, you, you,you, you live it and breathe it
every single day.

You gotta bathe in it.

squadcaster-33eh_1_10-09-20 (15:11):
And today a restaurateur is a
businessman who puts money intoa restaurant, you know, and
maybe it does well, and he's arestaurateur.
Okay?
Chefs, you know, I had a veryprominent chef one day said to
me, he says, you know, I, I, I'mnot a chef.
I'm, I'm a restaurateur.
And I looked at him and I said,you know, let me explain
something to you.
once in once, somebodyrecognizes me, but then I have a

(15:33):
difficult name, so they go, uh,chef me.
cause they can't go restaurateurit.
It doesn't really say.

Right,

squadcaster-33eh_1_10-09-202 (15:41):
So now I'm looking at the chef and
I'm saying, you know, the peoplethink you're cooking their meal
and even when you're not, andyou might be in business as a
restaurateur, they wanna thinkyou're a chef.
Of it.

It is.
Well, I.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2 (15:59):
the, the imagery and the romance is a
chef is a chef.
Even if he's a restaurateur.
The chef-driven restaurants aregreat, but if the chef leaves a
chef-driven restaurant, forgetabout it.
It's gonna close.
I always thought I had theadvantage as the restaurateur
because, um, I looked upon theseprojects as, like a director,

Mm-hmm.

squadcaster-33eh_2_ (16:18):
approaching a movie script.
the chef is the lead actor andyou have an ensemble car cast of
characters and you, you doeverything with the lighting and
the imagery and of all this kindof stuff, and you're basically
calling the shots.
the chef left me, uh, I wasfaced with the task of having to
replace the chef, and I had todo it several times because when
you're younger, you don't thinkthat way.

(16:39):
You just think everything'sgonna last

Mm-hmm.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-202 (16:42):
or you could open a restaurant
essentially.
The food is not so personal,personal to the chef that
anybody can do the food, but ifit's personal to the chef and
the chef leaves, you can't havesomebody walk in and basically
take over the repertoire.
That's not gonna happen.

no real chef will ever, will ever
want to just be doing someoneelse's food.
Right.
That's, that's, that's not partof the metal of that human
being.
okay, so.
We have, we have wonderful chefswho've been with us for a long
time and they're iners on the,on both of these restaurants.
Italian American restaurantnamed after Mark's Grandmother
Steakhouse that's been here for33 years.
I think with the steakhouse youcan change chefs more easily

(17:24):
than If it's all about only thechef, and after 30 years you
build an institution.
After 10 years you build aninstitution.
It's not this great chef is atthis great restaurant and that
chef may leave, but thatrestaurant remains.
one of the names we thoughtabout calling our first
restaurant.
We called it Stage Left becausewe're next to the theaters.
People recommended.
We call it Mark and Francis.

(17:44):
We're like, no, I don't wannacall it Mark and Francis because
then it's, it doesn't exist.
Independent of me being hereevery night.
It's Well, and, but then we werehere every night for 20 years.
Well, I should have named itMark and Francis.
'cause they're still here.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2 (17:54):
but, but it was an interestaurateurng
thing because when you name arestaurant after yourself, I
always felt you had to be there.

Yeah.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09- (18:00):
other problem with naming a restaurant
after yourself, if it, if itfails, you can never name it
after yourself.

Oh.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09 (18:05):
What's worse is, what's worse is like,
some people name it after theirkids, and when it fails, it's
like, oh, you, you know,

or how about this?
You could name a, a, a number ofrestaurants after yourself or
your initials, and then yourpartners force you out and then
they own your name.
Yes.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09- (18:21):
Well, that has happened.
listen, listen.
Two of the most prominent,restaurant chefs in, in the
world live in New York and JohnGeorge Vango Richton, Daniel
Blu.
Everything's, you know, theymaybe once in a while they call
something like the newSteakhouse.
Daniel Blu is Ted Do, but it'salways Ballou Ball Baloo.
And John George is kind ofsimilar,

Yep.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-20 (18:43):
bit different'cause he's got the
restaurants at the tin building.
I mean, in my book there's arestaurant called Paul and
Jimmy's, and it was, I, we neversaw Paul, you know, I don't
think he ever

Uh, Uhhuh.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-20 (18:55):
you know, so it, it didn't stop it.
I think if they named therestaurant after you guys, it
would've been a good idea.
But anyway, that's

the-restaurant-guys_6_10-09-2 (19:00):
I think you should open up a
restaurant and name it after us,and that's how that could work.
Alright, so.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025 (19:06):
I might, I might just do that.

So we, our first 12 years, we went
through 10 chefs, right?
So we, we lived that.
And, and in a second I'm gonnaask you to tell the story of, of
how your first turnover of chefswent.
Uh, and it's traumatic, right?
It's, it's a traumatic thingwhen you go from one chef to the
other chef.
Now we've been super lucky thelast 20 years we've had two

(19:29):
chefs, one in each restauranttaking care of everything and,
and had a nice steady ship.
But the trauma of somebody you,you trusted and thought was
gonna be with you forever, thatfirst chef leaving.
It's something that's verydifficult to get o to get over.
Well, and especially if you onlyhave one restaurant at the time.

(19:51):
You know, the hardest thing Ithink I ever did was we, we ran
a little 50 seat restaurant.
You know, there's one chef,there's one sous chef, one of us
is the bartender, the otherone's the maitre d.
Somebody breaks a leg and we'rescrewed.
Right.
Um.
If you have two restaurants,well, you have two chefs and two
sous chefs, and two headbartenders, and two major days.
But tell us the legendary storyof you Open Montrachet.

(20:13):
You with Bole, uh, openMontrachet, you're immediately
one of the most highly acclaimedrestaurants in New York, and the
marriage wasn't made in heaven.
So within two years there's a,there's a storm, a brewing.
Take us through that.
It's one of my favorite stories.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025 (20:29):
I was on a whirlwind trip to, uh,
California 19, 83.
I just run the New YorkMarathon.
I was 175 pounds and, um,

That was sixth grade for me.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09- (20:47):
well, I start in San Diego, LA Jolla,
something like that.
And we make our way up to SanFrancisco.
And the day of the trip we had alunch reservation at a place
called soter 500, a dinnerreservation.
Actually two at um.
Campton place where BradleyOgden

Mm-hmm.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-202 (21:05):
He was a well-known chef friend of
mine and Fornos Ovens at theStanford Court.
Literally had two reservationsI, I was jogging, I jogged to
the Golden Gate Bridge and I,was no cell phone, so I called
from a payphone.
I said, I called my wife.
I said, listen, we're gonna goeasy at lunch because you know,
we have two dinner reservationsand we get to setter 500.

(21:26):
This had been a reservation hadbeen made for me, uh, by
somebody at work with the guy.
And, um, Boule comes out and hegoes, um, oh, thank you and I'm
gonna prepare a meal for you.
Which back in those days, nobodydid that.
And I kind of looked across at,at my wife, like, oh my, uh, you
know, what proceeded was this,like brilliant food.

(21:46):
I mean, it was unbelievable.
So I get back to New York ofevery restaurant I've been to
and I've been to Spago andMichael's and you know, fours
open up that that was the meal.
So I called David, I go, David,I'm gonna be opening a
restaurant.
If you ever wanna open arestaurant with me, you know, I
might be in New York, blah,blah, blah, blah, blah.
So you have to understand, it'slike, I found this guy in San

(22:07):
Francisco,

Right,

squadcaster-33eh_2_10- (22:10):
Whatever his life would've become.
It doesn't matter.
I mean, I can't predict that,but I bring him all the way to
New York and, you know, we, it,it's a very long kind of story,
but I'll, I'll just say thatwhen he would come to my house,
uh, my girlfriend who's now mywife would look at me and she,
when he'd leave and she'd say,how are you gonna control that
guy?
And I was like, and I was like,what are you, you know, are you

(22:33):
high?
I mean, you know, I'm drew toporn, you know.
I don't have problems like that.
Everyone listens to me.
So, um, you know, we opened therestaurant.
Seven weeks later, we get threestars from the New York Times.
We charge$16 for dinner.
Uh, I could have filled ChaseStadium

Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2 (22:50):
and, uh, I didn't realize it.
This was amazing to

Mm-hmm.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-202 (22:55):
He couldn't get the fucking food
outta the kitchen.

Yeah.
Yeah.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-202 (22:59):
We couldn't.
And, and, people are standing,where's my food?
And waiters are coming over tome and said, what, what do we
do?
And I go, you know, give himbread, water, it's, it's an

Want.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-20 (23:12):
the app and the entree.
And he, look, I could go throughit, but he had all these quirks.
So 13 months, that's all it was.
13 months.
I had to kill the goose thatlaid the

Mm-hmm.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-20 (23:25):
And I did.
And guess what?
I didn't hire another three starchef.
I hired a friend.

Yeah.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025 (23:30):
I trained everybody at Charlie
Palmer's restaurant.
They came to work.
I, when I I put his stuff into avan.
He couldn't believe it, blah,blah.

Well, I think, well, that's, that's
kind of a famous story that youmen that you talk about in the
book you're glazing over howimpressive that whole transition
was.
Mm-hmm.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025 (23:49):
I can only imagine doing that when
I was 29, and that's what I was,because I, I'm not, I'm not
calculating like that.
I, I had achieved somethingthree stars from the New York
Times and the book talks a lotabout my obsession with critics.
In fact, the guy who gave us thethree stars, Brian Miller, I sat
opposite him at Danny Meyer's40th anniversary two nights ago

Mm-hmm.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09 (24:10):
Square Cafe.

(25:58):
I mean, it, it's, you know, likethat's, you know, that, that guy
changed my life and I told himthat at dinner, you know, and
Danny Meyer got up and said theexact same thing.
He got two stars and it changedhis

Yeah.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-20 (26:09):
But the, the point about boule was,
um, you know, he wasextraordinary, but he couldn't,
the rigors of the restaurant,business of it, you have to be
able to get the food out.
you know, even with his fourstars and, uh, subsequently
executive survey number one andall that kind of stuff, this was
a problem that followed himeverywhere he went.
It wasn't unique to me.

(26:30):
Um, but the point is, 13 monthsafter I replaced him with a
friend only lasted a year, but,that restaurant went for 22
years.
Was another several years.
And then Barard, so in total wasalmost 40 years at that one
location

I have to the story that people
may not realize and why theyshould buy your book.
And by the way, your book isfull of really amazing stories,
and what I like about you is,and that it comes through
clearly in your book, is there'sa lot of like thoughtful, you
know, reserved stuff.
There's a lot of insight andthere's a little bit of fuck
you.
And, and, and that's really partof your personality.
That really comes through and Ireally like it.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09 (27:08):
That's true.

And so what you, what you had here
though was I'll lay the scene asit, as it is in the book as I
see it, and how we as fellowrestaurateurs, you know, across,
across the river, saw it.
So Boule is, got the stars, he'sthe ante.
He it, you know, he's got maincharacter syndrome.
Obviously chef's a veryimportant part of what's going
on, but you find out that he'snot turning out the food.

(27:30):
He's not necessarily, you know,making it happen every time.
And then you have friends whosay they overhear him in the
dining room, sitting in thedining room of the restaurant,
talking to about how he's gonnato jump ship and take the whole
kitchen staff with'em and it isgonna leave you.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09- (27:47):
think about that.

Oh, I think about that every day.
Oh yeah, exactly.
I thought about that all thetime.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2 (27:52):
Kill be killed.

A hundred percent.
But what you came up with wasyou then hired your friend,
trained a shadow staff at yourother friend's restaurants,
river Cafe.
And so he was gonna, he wasgonna walk in one day and say,
I'm outta here and walk out.
Or maybe not even walk in.
Right.
Maybe just say maybe.
Five o'clock.

(28:14):
Five o'clock you were gonna say,Hey, where is everybody?
But instead you put everythingyou had in the van and you said,
listen, this ain't working.
All your stuff's in the van.
And what you said was, I love inthe book where he, he walks into
the kitchen expecting, you knowyou to be screwed as well.
And you have a whole new crewthat just came right in, put
everything in the truck and openfor service that night.

(28:34):
That's amazing.
That's an amazing story.
You, you're an audacious kind ofa guy.
you know, you talk about notgetting the food out.
We're, we're next to threetheaters, One's an 1800 seat
venue, another, uh, 600 seat.
Regardless when we don't get thefood out.
People hate you forever.
Oh yeah.

(28:55):
It's happened like twice.
Okay.
In 30 years.
They hate you forever andthere's no getting away with it.
So one of the things that I, Ilove that you talk about and it
like so much of this, you know,if you're a restaurateur and
you've been doing this for along time, so much of this is,
is just what you had to do backthen.
Right?
And you're talking about takingreservations on, on paper.

(29:17):
you're putting people's names inand trying to put little notes
in and who likes to sit whereand memorizing all these things.
And that's just how you had todo it.
And you had a piece of paper andan eraser and you, you move
tables around and this guy hadto be on 32 and this guy wanted
to be on 51.
And if, god forbid, you weren'tat the door for a minute and

(29:37):
somebody else sat somebody inthe wrong place, the whole thing
just collapsed.
And, you know, how many, howmany little holes in the paper
did I make?

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-20 (29:44):
No, no, I, I, I love what you just
said because you just jogged mymemory.
I'll just tell you this veryquickly.
every time I open a restaurant,I work the door and, you know,
it was a fantasy.
One day, uh, Steve Hansen saidto me, you know, one day people
are gonna make theirreservations on a phone.
I looked at him like he wassmoking crack.
I mean, it was like, it's nevergonna happen, And I was.

(30:04):
Uh, ridiculous about wherepeople sat meticulous about
everything.
And I turned around and in acorner booth, about feet from
my, uh, perch at the door.
Two people were sitting.
I didn't see it, so I was like.
I go over to de, was Len De Hue.

(30:27):
Her, her husband had Texarkanarestaurant.
I don't know if you rememberthat

Oh, I remember that.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09- (30:32):
great place.
Anyway, I go, Len, did you seatthem?
No.
Go over to the waiter.
Did you see them?
No.
Okay.
I said, I said the waiter, uh,tell'em they have a phone call.
The waiter comes back to me.
He says they're not expectingany calls.

funny.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09- (30:50):
Okay?
I go to the busboy, two busboy.
I said, table 40, pick up thetable and bring it to me.
And they literally

Oh, that's really funny.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09 (31:00):
picked up the table.
Now the two people are sittingat a banquette

I love it.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-0 (31:05):
without a table.

And, and what did they say?

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2 (31:11):
They left, they sent themselves,

That's what you do.
You leave, do you wanna tell thestory, Sean?
No, it's okay.
No, I, I gotta tell the story.
So Mark and I, we, so it's 225seat restaurants in New
Brunswick.
New Brunswick used to be asomewhat rougher town than it is
today.
It's a beautiful little cityright now, but we had some edges
on our neck of the woods when weopened and, and Mark.
Is the big Italian guy who hasto, when people have to be

(31:33):
thrown out, he throws'em out.
I, I'm, I'm the little Irishguy.
I don't, I don't throw anybodyout anymore.
Yeah.
But back in the day.

Francis (31:38):
But one of the most brilliant tableside moves I've
ever seen was we had thisbelligerent guy, and he was just
a jerk.
He had insulted the waiter.
He had, like, he called thefemale waiter a derogatory name.
It was, it was time to go.
It was, you know, the curse in ablue streak.
You, you know, the guy.
And so Marcos.
Listen, I, I think it's time foryou to go it's beautiful dining

(31:59):
room tables.
He's on a banquette uh, he'slike, I'm not going anywhere.
And Mark reached over and pulledthe table out from in front of
him, picked up the table doingexactly what your busboy did.
So now he is nice sitting on abench.
What whatcha gonna do now, sir?
You're naked.
You're naked, right?
You're And

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09- (32:16):
know, you know nowadays of, uh, TikTok
and everything you see.
Not necessarily in restaurants,but on planes,

Yeah.
Oh, every day.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10 (32:28):
behavior.
It's unbelievable.
I mean, it's

every day.
It happens in restaurants too.
I find that there was a, a NaDear of how some people behaved
right at the end of COVID.
But in the last couple of years,I think people have, I have not
seen as much bad behavior inrestaurants as I've seen in
prior years.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09- (32:46):
Nobu, employs full-time security.
I, I

Really?

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-202 (32:50):
my payroll for security is like
insanity.

Is it because people harass
celebrities or people are justentitled?
Why?

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025 (32:58):
I guess essentially, not every
night, thank God, but whenthere's an incident, it's very,
uh, difficult to assess how, howyou handle it.
I mean, I had one guy, he was abillionaire pharmaceutical guy,
and he was like, you know, ofborderline racist.

(33:18):
And,

Oh, that's a problem.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-20 (33:19):
you know, I don't know what, he did
something on a plate.
He, he drew stick characters.
Anyway, never, ever, ever bannedanyone from Aima, but we banned
him and he didn't, he didn'twanna be banned.
And then he's a billionaire,powerful guy.
He knew a lot of people and itwent on forever.
And he would do things like,he'd call me from Malibu, let's

(33:40):
just say, say, uh, oh, I'msitting in the restaurant.
You know, because no has.
So he would be like, you know,you tried Toban me, but I'm
here.
You know, like, you know,cryptic messages.
But yeah, look, um, you can'tobsess over this thing you have,
for me it's about food first andeverything else next.
But yeah, it's not easy guys.
It's

We, we have plenty of things to
obsess about.
Right.
That, you know, how nice a guyyou are is, is not super high on
my list of things to obsessabout, you know?
Alright.
So, there's one story that afriend of mine, Tracy Do, who
worked for you years ago, 25years ago.
Um.
She and, and Micah Carlucci, whoalso worked for you and I were
out and, and they told a storyof you we're legendary, You,

(34:22):
they, you're still legendary.
You're still legendary.
Didn't go away.
Back then we knew away, but the,there's a story they told.
They're like, yeah, drew, whenhe's working the door,'cause
Michael had taken over the door,but they telling stories about
when you had worked the door.
He is like, I'll always rememberthe day that somebody came in, I
don't know whether it was aviewer or it was somebody
important that needed a tableand you couldn't get them the
table.
And they're like.

(34:43):
And I just never saw thiscoming.
Uh, drew picked up a table overhis head and walked it into the
dining room.
In the middle of the diningroom, there was an impossibly
small place that just fit in.
He dropped it down.
We set the table and we sat thepeople.
And that's how you made yourday.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2 (34:58):
See, I don't have, I don't have a
memory of that, but that's cool.
That's a cool story.
The one thing I, I do remember,so Monday night we were busy,
busier for a Monday and I had aFrench, uh, Francois Pelzer.
He worked the bar.
He was a nice guy, wonderfulguy.
he would answer the phone.
He says, miss, miss UFO iscoming in, right?

(35:21):
What, what time?
Uh, eight o'clock.
So o'clock comes around andMalcolm Forbes, Forbes Magazine

Yes.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-20 (35:29):
the door.
And I'm like, back then Forbeswas like that.
He was a big shot

Yeah.
Yeah.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09 (35:35):
dating Elizabeth Taylor and all this
nonsense.
I had one table.
The most industry table right inthe middle of the dining room.
And he was with his date and he,I sat the only helpful table
right in the middle.
Right in the middle of the wholerestaurant.
So I remember vividly, I waslike, I gotta call my dad
because my dad would get a kickoutta Malcolm Forbes, you know?

(35:59):
But it, the night ran late, Iforgot to call my father, and in
the morning my, my mother calledme and said, you know, your
father's not moving in the bed.
And he had, he died overnight,you know,

Oh my God.

remember that story because I always
wanted to speak to my dad and hehad died.
You know, it's like, but MalcolmForbes invited me several times.
Maybe not Malcolm, maybe hisson's on the Highlander.

If.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2 (36:23):
July 4th, and I remember being with
Joan Rivers and and ambassadorsfrom everywhere and they were
very classy group of people,amazing people.

Isn't that a funny thing about being a
restaurateur?
I mean, obviously you'remultinational, multi-city
restaurateur.
We've got a couple little jointshere and, and a little podcast,
but what's amazing to me aboutbeing in the restaurant
business, whether chef or AAM orrestaurateur, we get invited to
a lot of cool shit that we gotno business.
There's a lot of places Ishouldn't be that I, that I get

(36:53):
to be exactly.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09- (36:55):
what, what's that expression?
Um, any club that will acceptme.
I don't know.

Any club that would have me as a
member, I don't wanna belong to.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09 (37:01):
that's it.
But, you know, it's, it's likenowadays, you know, I know a lot
of PR people and I used to beangry at PR people'cause I, I
was like, you know, why dopeople hire you?
To call the journalist when Icould do it myself.
Jamie Felba wrote the book withme, and she's terrific.
She said, um, we, we really haveto hire a PR company.

(37:22):
I said, really?
And she had, uh, for a shorttime, had worked with a PR
company and, uh.
you know, it was like so painfulfor me, the, the, the spending
of the money to do pr.
But they've done a great job.
But as you'll attest, I think I,I saw you guys at Meals on

Yeah.
Meals on sitting, meals onwheels.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-202 (37:41):
we were chatting.
So a lot of the, I generate myown press.
Okay.
I,

Right, right.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-202 (37:46):
I, I just closed Tribeca Grillca
Grillca Grill in March after 35years.

Very sad.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025 (37:51):
I had never thrown any piece of
paper ever away.
I, in fact, I gave Danny Meyer ascrapbook the other night at his
anniversary party.
He, he freaked out that I hadkept all the clippings on him.
But anyway, I got more press.
I always felt like, oh my God,you know, if something bad
happens, I could put, becauseyou, those were the days you

(38:11):
used to reprint a review orsomething in the New York Times,
and so your press went onforever.

Yep.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-20 (38:17):
But it ends the, beauty of the book
and, and the reason I wrote thebook was lived a great life.
I wanted people to know thestories.
I tell the stories, um, till mykids and my wife are blue in the
face.
I'm Robert De Niro's partner foryears.
Francis Coppola was my partnerat Rubicon, Robin Williams.

(38:39):
I wanna make a movie.
I I see my life verycinematically now I'm talking to
you guys, right?

Yep.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2 (38:45):
This will probably never happen, but
if it does happen, I'll probablybe dead because I, I always
thought the fantasy was like,someone would recognize, you
know, what a great story thiswould be.
So like now there's, you know,more interest the bear, everyone
talks about the

Mm-hmm.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-20 (39:02):
and got to know them and, you know,
it's maybe a little more, uh,about our business, but not
really,

it's got some notes of the drama that
actually happens in ourbusiness, but, uh, but it, it,
it's not a reality show.
It's not, it's not a real show.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-20 (39:20):
all it takes is a show like that,
um, to some for or a journalistto, to get behind it.
And then it takes off.
And now the rest is history.
They've won a million Emmyawards.
And, you know, you know, for me,when I watch it and I see, the
first season when it's Al's beefor whatever the, you know, that
sandwich shop

Right.
Mm-hmm.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2 (39:42):
that makes me nervous.
I mean, but.
Like I, when I think about whatI've done, mean, I, I do the
hamburgers today at MadisonSquare Garden for the last 12
years, and they're a fantastichamburger.

Right.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-20 (39:58):
had worked at McDonald's in 1972.
I love, I love the stories ofRay Crock and, McDonald's.
And I love, Colonel Sanders whoI, I met at Cornell and
actually, I have a picture inthe book of me and Colonel
Sanders, but at, at MadisonSquare Garden, um, called me
'cause I was on their charityfor many years.
We're gonna spend a billiondollars.
What would you like to do?

(40:19):
What concession would you liketo do?
He said, I'll, I'll make achicken Parmesan sandwich.
Oh, great.
Okay.
me back in two days.
And they go, uh, you got thehamburger?
I go, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa,whoa, whoa.
I don't, I don't wanna makehamburgers.
Well, that's all that's left.
If you don't make the hamburger,you got nothing.
So I was like, okay.

(40:40):
I challenged myself and I said.
The meat, the bun, thecondiments, but who's gonna cook
the the meat?
Who's gonna cook it?
Because at McDonald's we cookthe meat as teenagers, like a
joke,

Right.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-20 (40:51):
the meat is frozen.
It was disgusting, but I loveMcDonald's by the way.
But the meat is the last thingthey pay any attention to
anyway..
I find this Japanese conveyorbelt.
It cooks 18 hamburgers in fourminutes.
Toasts the bun, the buns on thebottom.
Perfect medium.

(41:12):
I served 2000 hamburgers a game,Nicks and Rangers

Wow.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-20 (41:18):
for 12 years.

Let's, that's great.
So,

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-20 (41:21):
I'm the, owner of Nobu.

so better not to have gotten the
chicken parm.
I think.
Yeah, I think, I think so.
I think, I, think the burgerprobably worked out better for
you.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-20 (41:29):
see chicken parm anywhere at a game
anyway.
Oh, oh, no, no, I'm sorry.
City field.
she had a chicken parm sandwichat City Field for$24.

Nice.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09- (41:39):
Yeah, but$24, come on.

Nice.
$24.
That, that's what I mean.
Nice.
Can I tell you something?
I am right now, right thisminute, paying more for the
chicken breast on my menu than Ipay for the roast beef.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09 (41:54):
that's probably right.

It's more expensive for the chicken
than for the roast beef.
it's unbelievable to me the waythe world is is on its head.
Kooky time.
Alright.
I wanna talk about a couplethings that you kind of
innovated in the restaurantworld that, everybody does.
And I think that, people don'trealize that Drew Newport really
was behind starting some ofthese things.
I remember when you firststarted taking a.
Credit card for large parties.

(42:16):
And I remember that, that beforethat it was getting worse and
worse and worse.
And we'd have a no-show rate ona Saturday night of 15, 20%
table sitting empty.
And we were, we were 17 tablesin that, in those early years.
if three of them didn't show up,you were dead and you couldn't
book three more because therewas no place to put, we, we had

(42:37):
a five 30 pre-the seating.
We had an eight o'clock posttheater seating and.
When you were outta tables, youwere outta tables.
there was no buffer zone there.
Well, but, but some restaurantsoverbooked and you might get
screwed and sit at the bar foran hour and a half as defensive
and, and if they didn't, you satwith two empty tables on a night
when you turned away.
200 people.
Mm-hmm.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2 (42:55):
You, you hit the nail on the head.
I, first of all, I neveroverbooked.
of all, in a lot of these, uh,in the New York Times, it said I
was the first one to take creditcards, which is, uh, obviously
not true, but I I, you're rightwhat you said, which is I, when
a party would call and they'dsay, hi, there's six of us.
We wanna come in eight o'clockand said, no problem.
Uh, we need a credit card toguarantee the reservation.

(43:17):
And it was like you insultedtheir mother.
I

Yeah.
Yes, absolutely.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2 (43:20):
what do you mean?
And blah, blah, blah.
And, and I don't think it's inthe book, but I, I, one time I
had a reservation that didn'tshow up and um, I, I had a phone
number, so I called the numberand they go, uh, doctor,
whatever his name was, doctor.
And, and I said, is he in?
Oh no, they're out.
They're out having dinner.
Oh, really?
Where are they having dinner?

(43:40):
Um, you know, Lafayette.
So I called Lafayette, I knewthe maitre d and I said, um,
could you put Doctor, what's hisname on

That's amazing.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-20 (43:48):
No, no, I did this.
And the doctor comes to thephone, I said, doc, um, you
know, I, I own this restaurantthat you made a reservation and
didn't show up.
Um, I, I'm gonna come to yourpractice.
gonna make, uh, an appointmentand I'm not gonna show up and
like, he, you know, he couldn'tbelieve I called.
He was like shocked.
But what you said, youliterally, if you have a hundred

(44:09):
seat restaurant, you lose a fivetop, that's 5%

Yep.
right.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-202 (44:12):
so when, when I would say we're
taking a credit card, you knowthe people, I said, Hey, listen,
no problem.
You don't want it to gimme acredit card, don't do it today.
Every single online reservation,you have

the-restaurant-guys (44:24):
Absolutely.
Well, and I remember that whenyou started this and then we
started it, we let you take abunch of the heat and then we
started about two years later asit's people started to adopt it.
But even then, we'd have peoplelike.
I'm not giving you a creditcard.
I'll go someplace else, but I'mthinking, all right.
Well, uh, we were, we were upto, it's Saturday night.
I'm turn again, I'm turning 200people away.

(44:45):
Well, we're up to, it's, it'sokay.
We're up to a 10% no show rateon some Saturday nights.
I'm like, okay, don't make thereservation.
I, I, I, I can't afford to haveyou make the reservation.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025 (44:54):
I tell you something?
we would almost rarely enforce,uh, like we had the credit card
and they didn't show up, right?
And, you know, in TribecaGrillca Grillca, you're not
gonna get a walk-in, you know,

Right.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2 (45:07):
when I finally started charging the
people who didn't show up, itwas like a hundred thousand
dollars a year.

Oh wow.
Oh wow.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-202 (45:15):
It was, it was, it was, I, I saw
the line item on the, on theprofit P and I said, what is
that?
Oh, those are people, you know,they, they, they put a credit
card down.
I was like, this isunbelievable.

Well, mark, you have a story of a
friend that you went out.
Oh yeah.
I was just about to tell thatstory.
That's funny.
Uh, so we do, we have a bachelorparty and there's 17 of us.
I remember the number.
There are 17 of us, and we're inNew York City and we're
somewhere around where HudsonYards is now.
Somewhere, somewhere downtown.
And the brother of my buddy,who's his best man, says, you

(45:48):
guys want to eat here or inJersey?
I was like, it's Saturday nightat seven o'clock.
How are you gonna get areservation for 17 people?
He's like, oh, I have one hereand I have one in Jersey.
And I was like, you effer, youcancel one of those reservations
right this minute.
Or I'm or you're dead.
I'm gonna beat you up, or I'mliterally gonna beat you up.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09- (46:09):
Okay.
one better, right?
So I'm in De Niro's office andhis assistant is um, I'm gonna
cancel Terrell tonight.
Robin, I said, what do you meancancel Terrell?
Well, Bob always has me make twoor three reservations.
Then he decides where he wantsto go, and then I cancel.

(46:29):
But it's canceling at the lastminute.

Yeah.
Yeah.
Right.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-20 (46:33):
And I said, Robin, I said, guy's in
the restaurant business.
He can't do this anymore.
He

Did he stop?

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-20 (46:40):
I'm gonna let you decide if he
stopped.

I don't think, I don't think a lot
of people tell Dero what to do.
I'm just guessing.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-20 (46:47):
You know, he is 82 now, so you're
probably right about that.
But.

Yeah.
Um, you also pioneered, Iremember with Grillca Grill
Grill, putting the bar in themiddle of the room rather than
off to the side and up against awall.
And that's a thing that wasreally, you were kind of a
forerunner back and you see iteverywhere now,

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-20 (47:01):
no, but guess what?
Guess what?
You know, this is the, this isthe lesson.
If there is one, I'm, I'm notpreaching to anybody, but when
you work in a place, you betterlearn something about that
place.

right?

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-20 (47:14):
You know?
There's always gonna besomething that's invaluable.
That's like.
Really important.
So in, I graduated Cornell in 77and nobody hired me Then the
general manager of Maxwell'sPlum, which was this incredible
restaurant, opened late sixtiesand ran in the seventies, closed

(47:34):
in the early eighties.
They hired me and Maxwell'sPlum.
The bar was in the middle of thespace on a pedestal.
It was on a, on a riser.
When I'm about to open TribecaGrillca Grillca Grill.
Maxwell's closes and the bar andeverything in the restaurant is
up for auction.

(47:54):
And I bought the bar.

Love it.
That's perfect.
Love it.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-20 (47:57):
I'm gonna put the bar in the middle
of space just like Maxwell's,right?
And guess what?
De Niro goes?
Uh, I don't, I don't think so.
I don't like that idea.
So we mock up a fake bar, put itin the middle of the space.
And he sees it and he is like,you know, begrudgingly, okay,

(48:18):
you know, I'm gonna allow this.
Now we mill the bar, the barcost me like 15,000 at the
auction, and it cost me about 70to mill because

Right.
Mm-hmm.
Right.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2 (48:28):
and, and I install it in the middle
of the Tribeca Grillca GrillcaGrill.
It's right there.
It cost me about a hundredthousand dollars.
The Niro walks up to the bar.
He puts his arm like this on, onthe ledge of the bar.
I think he gotta lower it oneinch.
Sure, Bob.
I mean it.

I love it.
Hey, your partners with 10 Niro,your partners with 10 Niro.
You know what Francis used to dofor me when we were, when we
built the original restaurantand each time we expanded and
then when we went upstairs tothe other restaurant, he used to
do cardboard cutouts for me.
Oh, a hundred percent.
So he would bring littlecardboard cuts, big cardboard
cutouts, put all night on those.
This is where this table's gonnabe.
This is where this chair's gonnabe.

(49:09):
Hundred percent.
This is how, it's not gonna betoo crowded here.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2 (49:12):
your restaurant, is it New Brunswick
or Brunswick?

New Brunwick.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09- (49:16):
Okay.
So When I come home from Cornellone time the guy gave me a lift
to New Brunswick, I think it'sthe only time I've ever been
there.
it took me forever to get backto New York

Well, it's time to come back.
Yeah, we gotta have you in fordinner Drew.
Come have dinner with us.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09- (49:30):
gonna check you out.
it'd be fun because I, I love,first of all, I love Italian,
uh, food.
I love Italian restaurants, butI love the old style.
I don't think I'm telling youanything you don't know, but, so
like in New Brunswick or in thesuburbs outside of New York, you
go, um, the pastas, pasta wasalways like 12 bucks, 14 bucks,
you know, huge bowl.

Mm-hmm.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-20 (49:53):
So, I dunno who started this, but
they said, uh, do you make halfportions?
yeah, yeah, yeah.
And you know, they charge youlike a dollar or two more for
the half portion.

Mm-hmm.
Right.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-202 (50:03):
if it was, uh,$12, they never
charge you six.
They charged you seven or eightor whatever

Of course

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-20 (50:07):
now with the advent of Carbon

Mm-hmm.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-20 (50:11):
Ns, all the, all the Italian
restaurants, so no, no, here'swhat they do.
The size of the portion is ahalf portion and they charge 30
bucks.
it's the full price, but halfthe size.
Everybody does that now

Uh.
I, I am amazed sometimes when I'cause, because here in Central
Jersey, listen, the, theexpectation is still that
you're, if you're ordering Ebolapasta, there's gonna be some for
tomorrow, right?
You, you're gonna have some fortomorrow.
and it's not just New York, it'salso North Jersey.
I know that you lived inRidgewood for a while.
It's also up in North Jerseynow.

(50:49):
You see the portion of pasta hasreally shrunk a lot.
Well, okay.
In fairness though, it's the,it's the size of a portion of
pasta.
You might be served in Italy.
Right.
And we serve the size of aportion you would be served in
Jersey, right?
This is a big portion.
This just in, we're in Jersey.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09- (51:07):
Yeah.
But don't apologize for that.
Yeah, that's what I was gonnasay.

No, not at all.
Not at all.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-20 (51:11):
you gotta give these guys credit.
The major food group guys, youknow, to and Richie, uh, Mario
Carbone, they, when they openedtheir restaurants, they said
they were gonna make ItalianAmerican food.
They didn't say they were beItalian

That's what Catherine Lombardi is
Italian and Brooklyn.
Italian.
That's what it's,

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2 (51:28):
they said American.

Yeah.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-20 (51:30):
And they, and, and by that they said
they're gonna use progressobreadcrumbs.
And I mean, it's like the publicis so accepting.
when they told me that they weregonna do old school Italian, I
was like, are you kidding me?

You wanna know something that sticks
in our crowd just a little bit.
So we opened two years beforeKurbo opened.
We opened our second restaurant,Catherine Lombardi, named after
Mark's grandmother.
Who, who cooked in Brooklyn herwhole life, spent her whole life
in Brooklyn.
My mother spent her whole lifein Brooklyn.
The menu, the menu, read ItalianAmerican cuisine, all our press
releases said, we're gonna takeour four star fine dining
restaurant.

(52:05):
We're gonna apply the same careto sourcing ingredients making.
So you're gonna use the sameveal, you're gonna use the same
chicken, you know, the, the sameground beef.
We're gonna, you know, we'regonna do all this cool stuff
what I used to say was, and I'm,I'm sorry to interrupt your
story there, Francis, but what Iused to say was.
You would never write free rangechicken on a, grandma's menu
because grandma went to thechicken market and she got the
slowest chicken, right?

(52:26):
That's the chicken that she puton the table, the first one that
they caught.
so it felt weird to put all thatstuff on the menu, but.
we were gonna use stage left's,kind of ke philosophies.
But the, but the thing was wewent to the New York Times, we
went to all the food critics andwe said, that's, this is our
idea.
We're gonna take ItalianAmerican cuisine, but we're
gonna, it's not Italian, it'sItalian American, but we're

(52:47):
gonna use the best chicken andthe best fish, and we're gonna,
we're gonna can 10,000 pounds oftomatoes every year.
We're gonna do, you know, allthis stuff.
And they either didn't give ashit or they were like, oh,
that's a stupid idea.
And then two years later, carboncame out and I'm like, that's
what we said we were gonna do.

Amazing.

Yeah.
Wild, wild story.
We needed you to be ourpublicist back then.
Alright, so I, I want to talk,you brought up Maxwell's Plum a
moment ago.
Um, and I, one of the lines inyour book that I thought was
really great, and this is foranybody who wants to learn any
business, but especially in therestaurant business, mark and I
talked about the places weworked in, where we learned all
the cool shit that they did andwe're like, oh, we're gonna copy

(53:23):
those ideas.
More valuable than that are theplaces you go and you're like,
oh, I'm never gonna do that.
And, and you wrote at Maxwell'sPlum.
but I also learned a lot abouthow not to run a restaurant.
The kitchen was too small, themenu was too big, and everyone
who worked at the restaurant wason the take.
And that was in the ethos of alot of restaurants.
Then tell us about the worldthat you came out of, that you

(53:44):
kind of changed things andrestored a little integrity of
your own operations.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09- (53:48):
Well, I, I think if you're gonna open
your own business, you gottalearn the things that you
shouldn't be doing.
I mean, max was, the bartendersbrought their own cash register
they wouldn't put vodka in thebloody Mary's, you know?
No, there were so many thingsthat I saw these people doing, I
was a, a steward, a back of thehouse steward, so I would take

(54:09):
the deliveries in.
And only when, uh, Deb Bragan,Spitler was delivering the meats
did the chef check in all the,food, because he was, taking

He was getting his own piece.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-20 (54:21):
Ah, without a question.
so the whole point was to learnwhat not to do, and that's what
I did.
When you open your ownrestaurant and you say to
yourself, I'm gonna create myown Shangri La here, you know,
utopia, what?

there, there's no such thing as
shangrila.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-20 (54:35):
You know, I mean, you try and then
you can't fight City Hall.

Well, you can fight it, but you're
gonna lose well.
There was also, there was also achange, I think in the
restaurant business in the 1970sand eighties and into the
nineties.
You couldn't keep track ofeverything.
So as a restaurateur, you lookedat the gross numbers to make
sure people weren't stealing toomuch.
Right?
Like I remember there's a guy,and you would probably know

(55:00):
these names.
So this guy who was opening arestaurant in soho and he hired
another friend of ours who ranbars and he said, and you know
this guy had a bunch of Irishbartenders that he would hire
and work for him.
but he didn't wanna keep toomuch track of everything'cause
he himself was maybe notreporting all the money he was
taking.
Right.
So he didn't wanna have recordsthat were too exact.
And he said to the headbartender, he said, listen,

(55:22):
don't get greedy.
Don't take too much.
Like, so he knew the bartenderswere gonna skim 10%, but you
can't be mad at somebody forstealing the money you're
stealing.
So it was, it was this looseygoosey stuff.
And I think the big change wascomputers because now people are
like, Hey, there's one bottle ofBuffalo trace missing from the
behind the bar last month.
Mm-hmm.
Where did it fricking go?
So your choice is.
If you keep records like we dotoday, every single bottle is

(55:45):
accounted for.
That's one way to do it.
But in the old days, youcouldn't keep track of
everything and a lot of guysdidn't wanna keep track of
everything.
And so it was a crazy looseygoosey.
Everybody's on the takeenvironment.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09 (55:57):
people always figure out a way to
steal.

Yeah, you know, so many of your
philosophies have we adopted,some purposefully following you
and following in your footstepsand learning as much as we could
from, from watching what youwere doing.
Uh, some by accident.
some things just happened, butwhat I remember, talking to
somebody about this, uh, 20years ago, and I say it all the
time now.

(56:20):
'cause I hate the phrase, it's,it's just business.
It's not personal because inthis business, for me, and I see
it for you, and I read it inyour book 25 times, it's
personal and I want it to begreat.
'cause it's personal.
when you do something that, thathurts my restaurant, you do

(56:40):
something that hurts me.
Right?
and I loved how personal youmade your restaurants and it,
it's, one of the things I lookup to you most for.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09- (56:50):
Thank you.
I, at, at the end of the day,however, the public a very hard
time, um, relating to arestaurant these days that's run
by a restaurateur.
They, they really want the chefto be the.
That's the magnet.
people now, they, they see meand they go, oh, how many

(57:10):
restaurants do you have?
I go, I'm 70.

Yeah.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-20 (57:15):
How many do you want me to have?
You know, I, I mean, you know,what are you doing next?
Because there used to be always,what's, what's the next thing
Drew's gonna do?
I love it.
And, and then I think about it.
I say, well, I still own Nobu.
I have a wine store on 57thStreet called Crush Dust, 20
million a year.
I do the Hamburgers of MadisonSwear Garden.
What else do you want me to do?
You know, I'm fine.
I'm doing great.

Well, well, drew, I did some math last
night when, when I was thinkingabout doing this interview and,
and I realized that the numberof.
Dollars that have come into yourrestaurant is in the tens of
billions.
And I was like, wow, that isit's amazing.
I remember while back, that wehad served a million dinners.

(57:55):
wow, we've sold a, sold amillion people.
Well you've served hundreds ofmillions of people.
It's, it's really, really animpressive statistic.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-202 (58:03):
If you hang in there long enough,

I am gonna have to be 248 Drew.
Make those numbers.
We're only doing at tworestaurants.
A we don't have any stadiums inour repertoire, but we are
enjoying what we do.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09- (58:16):
drive you nuts.
Don't worry about that.

Drew, I, I was talking about it being
personal, and I think it was,it's really good for people to
realize, again, how personalthis is.
And unbeknownst to people,frequently your mother would
answer the phones at Ma Rusheand I love that Ruth Reel, who
didn't know it was your mother,who was the New York Times
restaurant critic, who was theNew York Times restaurant or

(58:38):
critic, wrote.
The woman on the phone has themost delicious voice, low,
slightly husky, completelyinviting, just calling for a
reservation, made you want toeat at Monte.
She I was like, that's his mom,man.
That's, you know, that's, howcool is that, that that just
happens to a fear.

(59:00):
Yeah, I'm sure.
I love it.
My, just so you know, my mom'sstill around, no chance she's
answering the phones for me.
Yeah, exactly.
Zero chances.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09- (59:08):
Well, you know what?
That's the other thing.
Nobody answers the phoneanymore.

Yeah.
I kind of miss it.
I love that we still answer ourphones.
I, I'm sorry.
I love it.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09- (59:17):
good.
When you get a phone number tocall, you get a

Mm-hmm.
It's funny when you go to get arestaurant and you can't get,
there's no answering the phoneand I know that we should start
thinking about that.
And we have a, another friendwho recently has AI answering
their phones.
I don't know, I just like yougetting a person.
If you hear, if you're callingwhen we're open, you're gonna
get a human being.
But Drew, I gotta say, I think agreat testament to, to your

(59:40):
career, thus far is this greatbook.
I'm not trying to be difficultstories in the restaurant
trenches.
They are, there's a lot foreverybody to learn about
humanity, eating out, running abusiness, and, uh, being a great
guy.
So, and we will see you in themovies.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-2025 (59:54):
I enjoyed this guys.
Thank you.

Thank you.
Ton of fun.

squadcaster-33eh_2_10-09-20 (59:56):
you in New Brunswick.

Nice.

the-restaurant-guys_9_10-0 (01:00:30):
Wow.
Judy important.
I don't think he realizes howmuch of a role model he was for
us, him and Danny Meyer.
And Danny Meyer.
Honestly, after reading thebook, I really don't think he
knows.
How important he was torestaurateurs.
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah.
You know, he had this, thisgreat gravitas and people
recognize him and people see himin on the street and know who he

(01:00:51):
is when they don't think he'sPavarotti.
Yeah.
And, but that he has this place.
If you're within 10 years of us.
Either way, drew was, was a rolemodel.
Drew and Danny Meyer, I meanthose two guys for me.
Yeah.
Yeah.
They're, they were, yeah.
Agreed.
The, the person I was tryingmost trying to emulate career.
Well, and when they did newthings, like when he brought

(01:01:12):
Nobu to New York, he brought thefirst Nobu to America.
He met Nobu Matsa and opened uphigh end.
Order for the table, chopsticksonly restaurant in a western
setting.
Nobody had ever done thatbefore.
Mm-hmm.
When he opened MAA in Tribeca,Tribeca was no man's land.
Nobody ever put a fine diningrestaurant.
Well, Terrell was there already,but that's, that's not quite in
that neighborhood.

(01:01:32):
It was just an emergingneighborhood.
It was just a baby.
He used to, it was an infantstill in diapers.
Yeah, it was, it was a, it was acool restaurant down there.
Yeah.
ma Marsha super special place.
So he opened down in Tribeca.
where there were no fine diningrestaurants.
Mm-hmm.
And I used to remember goingdown there, we were cooler back
then too, by the way, and betterlooking, I gotta tell you.
But it was, but it was, no, itwas cool going down there and
you'd be in Tribeca.

(01:01:52):
You felt like you were the coolkid on the block.
Like it was kind of likeexploring a new neighborhood
and, I don't know, it was justthe, the Ghostbusters firehouse
was right down, was right acrossto his place, was right across
the street.
What was great for us, right,for the jersey contingent,'cause
we could slide in through theHolland Tunnel and be in and out
of there.
So, so easy.
If, we went on like a, a Mondaynight or a Tuesday night, which
is the most likely nights wewould go, we could get in and

(01:02:14):
out of the city so quickly.
I was so cool.
I used to ride my motorcycle inthere and park outside.
Wasn't I, wasn't that apretentious bastard?
Who wants to ride theirmotorcycle through the Holland
Tunnel?
I I park it at Osmo King andpick up our friends, and then we
would go down to that area downthere.
It was very cool.
I'm not that cool anymore.
I'm not that cool.
Anyway, um, I hope you guys haveenjoyed it.
I, we, I really recommend thebook, even if you're not in the

(01:02:34):
restaurant business.
It's a fun read.
He's a mensch.
He's a, he's a super interestingguy and he blazed a lot of
trails.
The book is totallyunpretentious and, and friendly
and really capture.
I remember Drew saying it.
It's, I'm not trying to bedifficult and if Francis is
saying, it's, I'm not trying tobe difficult.
Either way, you don't try to bedifficult.
Go pick up the book I'm MarkPascal.

(01:02:54):
And I'm Francis Shot.
And you can find outmore@restaurantguyspodcast.com.
I have an idea.
Shake hands.
Okay, you can mark

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