December 2, 2025 • 57 mins
The Banter
The Guys talk about actors being waiters and whether that is a good thing.
The Conversation
The Restaurant Guys catch up with bar owner and author Neal Bodenheimer. They wax sentimental about their glory days behind the bar, discuss clinging to standards and talk about the trajectory of New Orleans. At some point Mark commits Francis to a whole big thing!
The Inside Track
The Guys, who only briefly met Neal prior to the podcast, were taken by his commendation.
“What an honor to be on with you guys, and thank you so much for what you've done to make my career possible. Because if it's not for you guys doing what you do, there's no way I could have done what I do,” Neal Bodenheimer on The Restaurant Guys Podcast 2025
Bio
Neal Bodenheimer is the award-winning New Orleans bartender, bar owner, and hospitality leader best known for founding Cure, the cocktail bar that helped kick off the city’s modern drinks renaissance. A native New Orleanian, he returned home after years in the industry to open CureCo, the group behind Cure, Cane & Table, and other acclaimed projects that blend serious craft with the city’s unmistakable soul.
While his bars have won praise and awards, Neal is also a guiding force behind the global cocktail community, serving as a longtime leader of the Tales of the Cocktail Foundation, where he helped shape education, philanthropy, and industry standards worldwide.
Info
Neal’s book
Cure: New Orleans Drinks and How to Mix ’Em from the Award-Winning Bar
By Neal Bodenheimer, Emily Timberlake
Cure NOLA
Enjoy over-decorated restaurants with Christmas cocktails through January 6, 2026
https://www.catherinelombardi.com/
Check out New Year's Eve in New Brunswick, NJ
https://www.newbrunswicknewyearseve.com/
Become a Restaurant Guys' Regular!
https://www.buzzsprout.com/2401692/subscribe
Magyar Bank
Withum Accounting
https://www.withum.com/restaurant
Our Places
Stage Left Steak
https://www.stageleft.com/
Catherine Lombardi Restaurant
https://www.catherinelombardi.com/
Stage Left Wineshop
https://www.stageleftwineshop.com/
To hear more about food, wine and the finer things in life:
https://www.instagram.com/restaurantguyspodcast/
https://www.facebook.com/restaurantguys
Reach Out to The Guys!
TheGuys@restaurantguyspodcast.com
**Become a Restaurant Guys Regular and get two bonus episodes per month, bonus content and Regulars Only events.**
Click Below!
https://www.buzzsprout.com/2401692/subscribe
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
the-restaurant-guys_1_09- (00:59):
Hello everybody, and welcome.
You are listening to theRestaurant Guys.
I'm Mark Pascal and I'm herewith Francis Shot.
Together we own stage left inCatherine Lombardi, restaurants
in New Brunswick, New Jersey.
We are here to bring you theinside track on food, wine, and
the finer things in life.
Hello, mark.
Hey Francis, how are you?
Francis (01:15):
I'm, I'm Grand, thanks.
We are going to be talking toNeil Bodenheimer in just a
little bit.
He is a famous rest turf fromNew Orleans.
We love his places, we love hiswork.
And, uh, we'll be talking to himin just a minute, What are we
talking about today?
Mark (01:27):
Today I want to talk about a misconception in the
restaurant businessmisconception.
One of my favorite words.
Do you know that?
Do you know that if you don'tsin while you're thinking
something wrong, you know whatthat is?
What is it?
It's an immaculatemisconception.
I think we should go home.
I think that should end, weshould end the show right now.
Do you know what, in the beautycontest, the, the woman who
(01:47):
thinks of the most things, knowwhat a title.
She wins What Misconception.
Okay, stop it.
Okay.
I'm sorry.
Stop it.
I'm sorry.
Okay, go ahead.
Alright, so one of the bigmisconceptions in the restaurant
business.
Yeah.
Is that, actors make greatwaiters.
Now, hold on a second.
There's that old joke ofanother, the guy who's getting
bad service, he's like, are youan actor?
(02:07):
He is like, yeah.
He is like, well, could you actlike a waiter and bring me my
lunch?
Um, I think that for a lot ofpeople in entertainment long
term, restaurants can be greatjobs for actors.
because it can be seasonal, itcan be occasional, but it, I
think restaurants are a greatjob.
For actors.
(02:28):
I don't know that necessarilyrestaurants want to be hiring
actors as much as people thinkthey do.
I agree.
I know what you're gonna say asto why though.
So tell, tell us why.
So, and we'll, we'll tell astory later on about the, the
first season we were open, butactors.
We'll always leave you high anddry.
Well, if they get that part, youknow, they'll some For an
(02:51):
audition.
Yeah, for a good audition.
And you know what?
That's their dream.
That's what they want to be.
A hundred percent.
And you know what I want?
Waiters.
I want, I want people who wannabe really good waiters.
I want people who lovehospitality.
I want people who are, who arehere for all the right reasons
and not'cause it fits theirschedule well.
Alright, I wanna push back onthat just a little bit.
Well, go ahead.
(03:11):
You are right.
No, you are right.
But I wanna push back on that alittle bit.
I think a lot of people are inthe restaurant business because
you can't only be in it becauseof the schedule, you're gonna be
a crappy waiter.
Mm-hmm.
But a lot of people.
Have another thing to do, andthey're a teacher and they want
to work two or three nights aweek.
Sure.
Or, or they have another whereit does fit into their schedule.
(03:31):
The problem with waiters, actorsbeing waiters is, especially if
you're in a place where you'rein LA or you're in New York.
Mm-hmm.
If it's a, if they're a goodactor, when Spielberg calls,
they're going Right.
They're going and you, they'regoing and there's no ands or
buts.
They're going and so they can'tbe, and there's no notice I
think that very, very oftenthere can be notice, but what
you gotta realize, if you'rehiring an actor who's actively
(03:53):
looking for roles, uh, thatthey're gonna go with mm-hmm.
With no notice.
but I also think there arepeople who it schedule can be an
important part of being awaiter, but there's stability
and predictability.
And I think part of it is yougotta realize that if you are a
waiter and or you are anemployee of a business, you owe
that business something and theyowe you something.
(04:13):
So, you know, I, I listen.
Actors, it's their job topretend.
Yeah, that's true too.
Okay.
That's true.
And what I don't want is I don'twant you pretending to be
hospitable.
even if you're good at it, whatI want, is people who are
hospitable, who are enjoyingtheir job, who do love this.
Now, it doesn't mean if you'rean actor, you won't be
hospitable.
Right.
It just means you're good atpretending to be hospitable.
(04:37):
Yeah.
But I mean, you know, that'swhat an actor is in any in life
in general.
You, you, you, you know.
Yeah.
I don't want them to be mywaiters.
That's, that's all I said aboutthat.
See?
Well, we, why don't you tell thestory of our first summer when
we had a bunch of actors.
First summer stage left, forthose of you who don't know, is
next to three theaters in NewBrunswick, and we have an acting
school and an acting school.
And MFA one of a a Rutgers has agreat MFA program in at, uh,
(04:58):
Mason Grove School of the Arts.
Shout out.
So, we opened on May 22nd.
Mm.
So our very first cadra of, ofwaiters were all actors from the
MFA school.
Basically, it got around that wewere hiring, we were called
stage left.
We were next to the theaters,and we must have had, of our
(05:18):
first 30 employees, I'll bet 15of them were actors.
Yeah.
In enrolled in the graduateschool of acting or directors or
whatever, whatever.
in the graduate school.
And September came.
Uh huh And they were all like,we gotta go back to school.
And we're like, wait a second.
You said you were gonna workthis semester.
We're like, yeah, we lied.
That's just we, I'm sorry we, wedidn't know we were gonna like
(05:39):
you so much.
We didn't know we were gonnalike it here so much.
Yeah.
And we had to scramble.
We had to scramble'cause all ofour actors had to go back we had
one of those guys though, said.
I need to keep working.
If you can help work around myridiculous MFA schedule here, I
would like to keep working hereover the next time period.
And he worked here for likeanother year.
(06:00):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Do you remember the guy, wasthat Eddie?
That was Eddie.
Eddie.
Okay.
So I'm gonna tell a story andI'm gonna use, and I'm gonna use
his name because his name'simportant.
So Eddie's name Yeah.
Was Eddie Murphy.
Right.
Okay.
Right, right, right, right,right, right.
Eddie Murphy.
So it's 1992.
And you, you can't use that.
(06:22):
You can't be Eddie Murphy.
You can't use that.
There's, there's already anEddie Murphy.
So he is already got that kindof, that that one thing he's
gotta, change his name.
He changed his name to EddieLee.
It's great.
He successfully does a great, hewas in a great show over at
Crossroads Theater.
He was in a bunch of other greatthings, do you remember when he
caught his really big break?
No, his, his really big break,he got the New York Lotto
(06:44):
commercials.
Oh yeah, that's right.
And he got to be in these NewYork lotto commercials and it
was a whole series ofcommercials.
And I don't know if you rememberthe two guys, middle-aged black
dad.
He was a middle aged, middleaged black dad in all different
kinds of outfits.
It's like, it's like 20 yearslater and he gets this great
commercial that's gonna be, youknow, a hundred commercials over
the next two years.
And he's totally made it, right.
(07:05):
Yeah.
Yeah.
He's good to go.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Eight commercials in New Yorkpasses a law that the lottery
can't advertise.
Oh, I do remember that.
And we're like, oh no.
And they cancel.
His set of commercials brutal.
A year later, they reversed thelaw.
And they hire new guys to be thelottery guys.
(07:26):
Dude, I'm like, that was rough.
And this guy's what a good guythis is.
Right.
Super good guy.
And, and I can't like, you'relike, yeah, he made it.
Hooray.
Whoops.
that's why you should be awaiter and not an actor because
this is, you know, ha.
That never happens.
Okay, let's do a little walkdown memory lane.
One of the other guys, you and Ihad a similar experience.
(07:47):
I forget which one, saw it firstand pointed out the other.
Sitting in the movie theater.
And he was the guy, and you'regonna have the names because I'm
terrible with names.
Super nice guy was in that classand he was the male, half the
couple of scuba divers that gotleft behind.
Yes.
What was that called?
Dan Travis was in a movie calledOpen Water.
I remember it was Dan Travis,open Water.
And so I watched that movie.
(08:08):
It was okay.
It was okay movie, but I got seemy waiter in the middle of the
ocean, been attacked byjellyfish.
So we called him up.
Sharks, but No, but jellyfishtoo.
Jellyfish.
Oh, jellyfish too.
Yes.
And the thing about it was hetold us they shot it.
It was a brutal acting role.
Yeah.
Spent a lot of time in thewater.
That was actually a school ofjellyfish that came by and they
shot it.
Now they keep rolling.
He's like, keep rolling.
(08:29):
So there's another actor who wasa waiter that I want to share
with you.
An interaction I had thismorning.
Okay.
Dale DeGraff.
Okay.
Came to New York.
Came from la Mel was an actor.
That's true.
Yep.
Came from la, came to New Yorkto make it show.
So maybe you're just trying to,to turn my argument into
rubbish, right?
No, he didn't make it.
Thank God for the cocktail.
He did make it.
He did make it right.
Well, thank God for the cocktailworld.
(08:50):
He didn't make it on Broadwaybecause he became the most, uh,
famous bartender in the world.
So he's.
He's staying at my house.
He's staying over for a coupleof days.
He's doing a couple of seminars,and as you know, he has his
wonderful pimento bids, theDeGraff bidders.
Yep.
And, uh, he's, he's catching thetrain down from where he lives I
get a text, he's like, I'm gonnabeat your house in about 20
(09:10):
minutes, and he's staying overtonight.
He's like, I forgot a couplethings at home.
He's like, yeah, he's like.
You wouldn't by chance have anunopened bottle of Dale Degra
Pimento bitters.
I'm like, fortunately Dale.
I do.
And then he said, you wouldn'thappen to have an aromatize full
of absent, would you?
(09:31):
I was like.
As a matter of fact, I do.
And so before we came to recordthis segment, I left Dale a very
impressed Dale Degra with bothof those things on his bed,
everything but a mint forturndown service.
So the mighty Adam.
That's pretty good though, huh?
There you go.
That's pretty good.
Excellent.
I don't think, and he, he'slike, I don't think there are
five places in the world.
I could, four star hotels.
(09:52):
I couldn't call and get thiskind of service.
I'm like, yeah, it's good to be,it's good to be friends with the
dork like you.
That's awesome.
And there we go.
That's good news.
we'll move back in just amoment.
We'll be talking with NeilBodenheimer from New Orleans.
Stick with us.
the-restaurant-guys_3_08-05 (10:03):
Hey there everybody.
Welcome back.
Our guest today is NeilBodenheimer.
He is a managing partner of CureCompany, the acclaimed group
behind in New Orleans CureCanaan Table and Vals.
Uh, he is partner Delphine's inWashington and he runs beverage
operations at Pecho andCelestine.
He's a James Beard Award foroutstanding Bar program.
World's 50 best bars, northAmerica's 50 best bars in 2025.
(10:27):
Cure was named the Best bar inthe US by Food and Wine
Magazine.
His other properties get similaraccolades.
First cocktail book, cure NewOrleans drinks and how to mix
'em.
Received an IACP award and was afinalist for a James Beard Award
as well.
And after our many in recenttrips to New Orleans, we
couldn't be happier to welcomehim to the restaurant guys
(10:47):
today.
Neil Bodenheimer, welcome to theshow.
Mark (10:49):
Guys, thank you so much for having me on.
I'm really excited to get achance to sit here and chat with
you.
the-restaurant-guys_3_08- (10:55):
Yeah.
You know, we were talking alittle bit before we came on
about our group of, friends andacquaintances has a lot of
overlap.
I'm surprised we haven't had youon the show before.
neal-bodenheimer--he-him- (11:05):
Well, you know, in all good time
things, things, uh, happen and,you know, it feels serendipitous
given how many people we know,you know, so many of our mutual
friends.
So, um, you know, it's whatmakes me even more excited to
sit down with you guys.
the-restaurant-guys_3_08- (11:19):
We've done a lot of shows, around New
Orleans this year.
And New Orleans is a fascinatingcity that deserves a lot of
shows, but you are like severalpeople.
We've spoken to a native newOrian who went and traveled and
then wound up coming back.
But you started when you firstcame on our radar.
You were in New York City somany years ago.
Tell us about your experience inNew York and then coming back.
neal-bodenheimer--he-him- (11:41):
Well, um, you know, I didn't move to
New York to get into therestaurant business.
Um, like, like so many people.
I needed a job and I, I movedlike right after nine 11 and,
um.
There were no jobs to be had.
I was trying to get a job inadvertising and, uh, I needed
(12:01):
income immediately.
And I put in an application atthe Atlantic Grill, which was
right around the corner from myfirst apartment in New York on
the Upper East Side, and I washired.
I made lots of mistakes in theearly part.
I was very surprised that theylet me continue working there
and I was able to work my way upfrom server to bartender there.
(12:22):
my friend Evan Clem came on isbe our guest's first corporate
mixologist, and he was one ofthe, one of the country's first
corporate
the-restaurant-guys_3_08- (12:31):
Yeah, super, super talented guy too.
Just really changed theindustry.
Just yeah, just a, a reallyforward thinking guy.
Francis (12:38):
Very
neal-bodenheimer--he-hi (12:39):
forward thinking and.
A wonderful guy and he reallydid a lot to take me under his
wing in that, at, at that time.
And then I also had a very closefriend of mine, Vincent Favela,
who's been a longtime bartenderaround New York, and, um, used
to work at Alma Drafthouse intheir corporate, He also took me
under his wing and I just lovedit.
(13:00):
I mean, there was just, it'slike a fish to water.
I'm, I'm, I'm a history majorand the thing that I loved most
about what we do is that everybottle, every cocktail, had a
story, had a history, and I wasjust taken by it.
And so that's how I ended upreally getting into it.
I continued to work for SteveHanson.
I transferred downtown worked inan Italian restaurant, um,
(13:23):
called Vento that was downthere.
And then I transferred withinVento down to the club that we
opened called Level V, and I wasa nightclub bartender.
One point I was bartending aboutthree nights a week, only in New
York, which was, uh.
Which was crazy.
Those were crazy times.
and then eventually I wanted alittle more balance in my life
and went to work for Danny Meyerat the Modern, uh, and I was
(13:45):
there when the modern won best,the James Beard Award for best
new restaurant.
And the modern really taught me,I, I think Hansen's company
really taught me the nuts andbolts then I think that Danny
Meyer really showed me how to bean owner and a leader in
hospitality.
(14:05):
it.
the-restaurant-guys_3_08- (14:08):
Well, the modern, was even a, a
departure for Danny, right?
Museum restaurants.
Were a place that you grab thesandwich and you, and you, you
moved along through the museum,right?
Right.
It was a, it was your 15 minutebreak, uh, between exhibits and
Danny's like, no.
the modern is gonna be a placewhere you go and spend two hours
and it's gonna be part of yourmuseum experience.
(14:30):
Yeah.
It's not just gonna be somethingyou do to, to fuel yourself
between exhibits
Francis (14:35):
Yeah, and it, and it was interesting
neal-bodenheimer--he-hi (14:36):
because so many of our clients there.
I mean some of them were museumgo goers, but a lot of people
were just in the neighborhoodand worked in the neighborhood
and were taking meetings and,um, it felt very much to me,
like any average.
I mean, and, and I don't meanthat it was average, but I mean
that the bar scene itself in thebar room was like very New York
(14:59):
to me.
It wasn't just people comingfrom all over the country.
It wasn't.
the-restaurant-guys_3_08-0 (15:05):
You, you talked about earlier, and
it's something that we come backto all the time, is that, you
know, with food, and especiallywith cocktails, if.
It's not, and part of our job isto contextualize everything,
right?
I mean, if, if I just bring youa cocktail and I don't know
what's in it and I can't tellyou what's in it, and it's just
a bunch of flavors that thebartender who's been bartending
(15:27):
for six weeks threw together andsaw thought tasted good.
Um.
That's not really a valuablecocktail.
You know, part of our job is tobring you great stuff and also
to contextualize it, to know thebackstory and be part of the
present so we can lead to thefuture where, where somebody
else has passed.
And you said your history major,and you obviously embrace that
(15:48):
as a central part of this.
And now you've come down to NewOrleans where being part of the
story is part of your.
Everything you do is kind ofguided by that.
Well, our listeners haven'tlearned anything about New
Orleans,
Mark (16:01):
New Orleans is rife with restaurant history.
it's rife with cocktail and foodand, and restaurant history.
neal-bodenheimer--he-him- (16:07):
It's, and, and look, that is.
That's how I was raised.
I mean, history is a part of oureveryday life in New Orleans,
and I, I like to say it's like abroken record.
New Orleans, the story of NewOrleans is the relationship
between preservation andprogress.
And so for me, you, how can youtell the story of a cocktail?
(16:29):
How can you serve someone acocktail without talking about.
Its history and its provenanceand you know, that is, that's
the whole point to me is thestorytelling and then.
The, the end of the story is thefirst sip, is the second sip is
the finish.
it just, it's part of what wedo.
and that's not just incocktails, that is in.
(16:52):
world of spirits.
That's, I mean, a greatsommelier tells you the story of
where, of where a wine camefrom, how it was made, who made
it, who are the people, where dothey live?
What is the slope?
Look, you know, there's just somany things that, that you try
and tell your guests to makesure that they feel attached to
what they're consuming.
the-restaurant-guys_3_08-0 (17:13):
It's funny you say that.
Literally last night I wastableside and somebody got a
bottle of Glenn Counterpoint andI was talking to them about.
You know the Baals and SatinaBhel and Laurel Glenn has its
own specific clone of Cabernetthat is grown at Laurel Glen and
other people now are growing it.
(17:34):
But only from that Laurel Glennbegan this clone of Cabernet
and.
I increased their enjoyment ofthat wine fivefold, because was
causing them to look deeperinto, into what they were having
and made them enjoy it more.
It, it's as, it's as simple asthat.
I just, I wanna interject here'cause I think some people may
(17:55):
be skeptical of the stories wetell and there are lots of
people out there tellingbullshit stories.
So let's, let's be clear.
Um, so the, the idea though iswhat I say about wine is the
things that Mark are saying arewhy the wine tastes specifically
the way it does.
That particular clonal selectionis different than any other
cabernet in the world.
(18:15):
And once you recognize that, youcan taste that their specific
area where they are.
On Sonoma Mountain, on theSonoma side, but above the cloud
line that is reflected in thetaste of the bottle.
It's not just a story of ithappens to be that way.
And so what I say about a, abottle of wine is you can save
time in a bottle and place in abottle, and that's it.
(18:37):
And we are here to give you thebackground so you can understand
the story that you areparticipating in.
And I think the cocktail doesthe same thing.
But you helped to move the storyof New Orleans Forward and that
you're participating in rightnow.
You're in New York, you'recalled back to New Orleans.
What happened to bring you backthere and what was your
intentionality when you wentback to New Orleans?
Why'd you go back and what didyou intend to do there?
Francis (19:00):
Well, long
neal-bodenheimer--he-him (19:01):
story, but I'll try and make it as
short as I can.
Um, but you know, just gettingback really quickly to the, to
the story.
Of, of drinks it.
The thing that I love about thestorytelling and about this idea
of a moment in a bottle, amoment in a glass, is that it
personalizes the experience forpeople.
(19:23):
And I think that's reallypowerful.
so I'm in New York, I'm.
Working on what would eventuallybecome Cure.
Cure was supposed to be in NewYork, and then ca you know,
Katrina happens in, at the endof August.
I am working at the modern andworking at the, at the club, the
meat packing district, it.
(19:45):
Absolutely devastates NewOrleans.
And I think any new orian thatdidn't live in New Orleans was
like, well, who's gonna rebuildthis city if new there?
And I felt a big call back.
At the same time, I was alsoconfronting the reality of what
life in New York would look likefor me if I stayed in New York
(20:06):
much longer.
I remember I walked by thisreally.
Terrible looking apartment inthe West Village and I said, no.
No matter how this, howsuccessful this bar venture is
that I'm working on, I can neverafford to live there and that
place sucks.
the-restaurant-guys_3_08- (20:26):
Yeah.
neal-bodenheimer--he-him-_1_ (20:28):
So that also helped too.
but I did genuinely feel a callto come back home.
my brother worked for the cityat that time.
Uh, my sister worked for CNN andshe was covering Katrina and I
felt like everybody in my worldwas focused on New Orleans and,
and I just felt like I wanted tobe a part of the story, the next
chapter of New Orleans.
(20:49):
And you know, so much.
I'm very aware because of mybackground, of what goes in the
historical record and what'sgonna happen, and I wanted to be
a part of it.
my joy and desire to be in NewYork, which was pretty high
until Katrina just went away andI said, I need to go back home.
the-restaurant-guys_3_08- (21:10):
Well, There was a common thread that
Francis and I, again, have beentalking to a lot of folks from
New Orleans and a lot of peoplewho have reinvigorated New
Orleans over over the last 20,30 years, uh, or longer.
And the common thread seems tobe.
That when the chips are down inNew Orleans, you guys are
(21:32):
running to New Orleans, like thefiremen.
While everybody else is fleeingNew Orleans, there's, there's a
cadre of people who are runningto New Orleans and saying, this
city is worth saving.
We have to save this city.
We have to.
It has so much glory, it has somuch history.
We have to bring it back to thatformer glory.
Francis (21:51):
It does and
neal-bodenheimer--he-him- (21:52):
look.
If you look at the great floodof 1927, like New Orleans was a
large city in 1927, I think itwas one of the, I think it was
one of the largest in thecountry.
And every time a disasterhappens, the population
decreases and the city isdiminished.
Um, you know, I do have deepconcerns about the long-term
(22:16):
viability of New Orleans.
I would have to have my head inthe sand if I didn't.
Just given where our environmentis going, uh, new Orleans is
already, at or below sea level
the-restaurant-guys_3_08-05 (22:26):
And sea levels going up, not down.
neal-bodenheimer--he-him-_1 (22:28):
and sea levels going up.
So I would have to be, to thinkthat, that things are gonna get
easier in New Orleans and notharder.
I do have the discussions withmy daughter where I'm like, and
she's young, where I'm like,Hey, like you're always be a New
Orleans girl, but like, I don'tknow if you're gonna be able to
live here when you're
the-restaurant-guys_3_0 (22:46):
Mm-hmm.
neal-bodenheimer--he-him-_1 (22:47):
Um, which is sad, but at
the-restaurant-guys_3_08- (22:49):
Yeah.
neal-bodenheimer--he-him- (22:49):
time, like I still believe in New
Orleans even with all of that.
I still believe in the culture.
I still believe in my home.
It's very personal to me andit's personal to everybody that
you've had on your show.
Like if you love a place and theplace is special, and that's not
to say that New Orleans doesn'tdrive me fucking crazy.
the-restaurant-guys_3_08- (23:10):
Yeah,
neal-bodenheimer--he-him-_1_ (23:10):
to curse on your
the-restaurant-guys_3_08- (23:11):
Yeah.
neal-bodenheimer--he-him-_1 (23:12):
Um, but it.
But it also is, it has value andthe value isn't just in its GDP,
the value is in its culturalGDP, and that is the thing.
New Orleans punches so far aabove its weight in culture and
and influence, that is the thingthat is really worth protecting
(23:37):
and worth saving and investingin over and over and over.
the-restaurant-guys_3_08-05 (23:41):
you said earlier that when the chips
are down, people run back to NewOrleans.
I'm like, and in New Orleans,the chips are down a lot the
freaking time, to be honest withyou, it's like, um, it's a city
that needs a lot of saving.
But I remember at, at, atKatrina, one of the concerns was
so many people had beendisplaced who eventually did
come back, who had been livingthere and then were displaced by
the flood.
Um, that people were veryconcerned.
(24:04):
Corporate interests unrelated toNew Orleans would build back an
Epcot Center Disneyland versionof New Orleans in the French
Quarter and the Garden District.
And, um, that really didn'thappen.
I mean, the, the native NewOrleans built back the real New
Orleans.
Well, and I, I just wanted tointerject this.
You got to do something that younever would've been able to do
(24:25):
if you stayed in New York City.
Yep.
You got to purchase property,invest in the property, invest
in the neighborhood, and.
Frankly, you're gonna get someof the benefits of that
neighborhood rising up like wedid here in New Brunswick.
As, as we, our neighborhood andwe purchased our building.
we're getting some of thebenefits of our, neighborhood
(24:48):
rising.
And in New York, every bar is arenter.
Every restaurant's a renter.
There's no, it's not, it's not apossibility in New York, but
you've done something in NewOrleans where you're, you get to
be, you get to share in that alittle bit and.
People need to hear that storytoo.
'cause it's an important story.
Francis (25:02):
Well, and, and, and,
neal-bodenheimer--he-him-_1 (25:03):
and that kind of, it kind of jogs a
memory.
That I had that one of thereasons why I went to New
Orleans as well is that Iremember on the Upper East Side,
I forget the name of therestaurant, but someone had just
invested a bunch of money into arestaurant
the-restaurant-guys_3_08-05 (25:18):
Uh, if you can, you can tell this
story every two months.
Yeah.
Yeah.
neal-bodenheimer--he-him- (25:21):
Yeah.
And, and someone had investedthe money and their lease was
broken and the building wasdemolished and a highrise was
built.
And they had been open threemonths, I think.
I remember thinking like, God,like the point?
If you have that littlesecurity, you know, what are you
gonna do?
And I'm sure that, you know,knowing what I know now, I'm
(25:42):
sure that there was some sort ofpayment, to get them out.
But that's blood, sweat, tears.
That is a dream that got
Francis (25:50):
three months.
the-restaurant-guys_3_08- (25:51):
Yeah.
And, and frankly, the hardestpart about owning and operating
and running a restaurant is theplanning stage and the first
three months.
Right, right, right.
That's a, it is for me.
So except for the, you know, theeconomic downturns and things
like that, there's nothingharder than, than starting a new
project.
So that place you went downafter three months, probably
took two years to get open andthen went down after three
(26:14):
months, and maybe they got theirmoney back, but they didn't get
their two years back, you know.
neal-bodenheimer--he-him-_1 (26:18):
No, it's true.
you know, that there's alwaysthat like push and pull between
wanting to own your property andcontrol your future and then
wanting to grow,
the-restaurant-guys_3_08- (26:26):
Yeah.
neal-bodenheimer--he-him-_1_ (26:27):
so a very often.
(28:16):
hospitality, you can't do both.
Like I think it generally is acombination of leases and, you
know, if you can, you try andown whenever possible, but it
takes double, triple the moneyto do it.
the-restaurant-guys_3_08-0 (28:28):
Yep.
neal-bodenheimer--he-him- (28:29):
it's, uh, it's not always easy.
It's, it's a great thing to do.
We were very lucky to get to dothat and that really helped,
that laid the foundation for usto grow.
Own the estate, but we don't ownall of our real estate.
the-restaurant-guys_3_08-0 (28:44):
when we come back.
Francis and I are gonna talk toyou about a place that, you were
able to do this in, that wevisited in our last trip to New
Orleans called Val's, an old gasstation property That, you guys
have turned around.
Uh, we'll be right back.
You're listening to therestaurant
guys@restaurantguyspodcast.com.
Hey everybody.
Welcome back.
Our guest today is NeilBodenheimer from New Orleans.
(29:06):
And Mark, you wanted to talkabout a specific restaurant
that, yeah.
So, so you guys invested in aproperty, in an area that, that
wasn't doing so well, in an oldabandoned gas station.
Tell us about how that projectcame about.
Francis (29:19):
Well, that
neal-bodenheimer--he-hi (29:20):
project almost broke us, so it was, it
was supposed to open in April of2020, um, and it was about 25%
over budget.
the-restaurant-guys_3_08-05- (29:31):
So why didn't it open?
Yeah, some kerfuffle that I,why, why didn't it open on time?
neal-bodenheimer--he-him- (29:36):
Yeah, I don't really remember.
I try and blocked most of thattime out.
Um, well, look, mean the, theproject took five years to do,
was in, it was the, a familyowned, owns the gas station.
they were looking for the righttenant, but whoever was the
tenant had to develop the entiresite.
(29:56):
Make sure the site was clean andthere was just gas stations.
If I can ever give anybody any
the-restaurant-guys_3_08-05 (30:01):
Gas stations come whole lot of
baggage.
neal-bodenheimer--he-hi (30:03):
they're wonderful to look at.
the-restaurant-guys_3_08- (30:06):
Yeah.
neal-bodenheimer--he-him-_ (30:06):
pain in the butt
the-restaurant-guys_3_08- (30:08):
Yeah.
neal-bodenheimer--he-him- (30:08):
bring into commerce,
the-restaurant-guys_3_08- (30:10):
Yeah, you gotta clean them up.
Well, they got oil tanks in theground.
There's a whole bunch of stuffthat comes with gas.
neal-bodenheimer--he-him-_1 (30:15):
all this money that you will spend
on a gas station that no onewill ever see.
So make sure you really lovethat gas station
the-restaurant-guys_3_08- (30:22):
Yeah.
neal-bodenheimer--he-him-_ (30:22):
into it.
but in, in, in all seriousness,it was.
project that we looked at for along time, and me and my three
partners in that project, my,my, my first partner in
restaurants, Matt Conkey, who'sthe designer and a builder, uh,
had a great vision for it.
And then my other two partners,Alfredo Noguera, who is the chef
(30:43):
and does all the culinary, andthen Turk Dietrich, who does all
of the front of house incocktail.
Um, and so it's a greatpartnership.
Uh, a lot of talented peopleand.
Fortitude.
I mean, it took a long time andthere were a lot of times where
I think most partners said, thisisn't worth it.
(31:04):
Like, what are we doing?
But we ended up, you know,sometimes you end up getting
into something and the only way,uh, there's no turning back.
So you just gotta go through it.
and we were able to, to get itopen, we were able to find money
in the pandemic, um, which was,know, a miracle.
finish it, open it during thepandemic.
(31:25):
I mean, it, we, we rentedfurniture.
'cause all the rental companies,you know, we were out of money
again and all the rentalcompanies, had no business.
So we just rented furniture anddid an outdoor restaurant.
But we had the space to do itand it ended up being a
phenomenon.
We were, we just hung on longenough that.
All this outdoor space, whichwas not planned of the pandemic.
(31:49):
It was just the way we wantedthe restaurant to be.
really saved the restaurant.
the-restaurant-guys_3_08- (31:54):
Yeah.
Yeah.
neal-bodenheimer--he-him-_1_ (31:55):
in some ways almost killed it and
made it very challenging, but inthe end, I think made it very
successful in the beginning
the-restaurant-guys_3_08- (32:02):
Well, you should know that.
That how, how much we wanted toeat at your restaurant is, it
was a hundred degrees in Julyand we sat outside and, and,
and, and ate at the house.
But it was lovely.
It was, it was a, it wasactually a great experience.
Yeah.
Great time.
You guys had some fans out thereand, and, uh, kept
Francis (32:21):
you.
the-restaurant-guys_3_08-05 (32:22):
us, kept us pli with cool beverages.
Francis (32:24):
Thank you for going and.
the-restaurant-guys_3_08-05 (32:28):
No, we had the option of being
inside.
We chose to be outside.
We were gluttons for punishment.
So I wanna talk about though,you come down to New Orleans and
I want to get to Cure andopening Cure.
So obviously you've had a lot offun with Cure and you don't just
come to New Orleans and open alittle bar.
You come, you come and you opencure and like take over the
world.
You know, it's, it's nationallyknown important bar.
What did you do?
(32:49):
Why is it fun?
What made Cure special when youopened it up?
Francis (32:53):
Well
neal-bodenheimer--he-him-_ (32:54):
for, for a little background of vows
and cure, cure is one block downthe street from valves.
So we looked at the vowslocation for cure for 10 plus
years.
we were the first nighttimebusiness, um, on Ferre Street.
There was a college bar that wasdown the street that was pretty
rough.
But the first nighttime businessthat was trying to cast a pretty
(33:16):
wide net, cure was a passion.
It was not, you know, my wholegoal at Cure was to just not go
outta business.
you know, I felt like, I feltlike I had to do it, you know,
it was, it was what it was, whatI was passionate about.
I really wanted to do it.
It was, uh, I loved cocktails, Ithought.
I wanted to make a bar to do thethings that I wanted to do.
(33:36):
Um, you know, no one tells youthat the, when you open a bar
like that, the first thing youhave to give up is what you love
doing and someone has to run thebusiness.
so within six months to a year,I wasn't bartending anymore.
Mark (33:48):
You don't have to give it up.
You just have to be willing towork 19 or 20 hours a day.
Yeah.
If you want to keep doing it.
Francis (33:54):
No.
Yeah, no
neal-bodenheimer--he-h (33:55):
problem.
And then the first timesomeone's like, Hey, I'm broke.
I really need a shift.
And you're like, okay, you canhave my shift, you know?
And hey, next week, hey, I'mbroke.
I really need
the-restaurant-guys_3_08- (34:05):
Well.
Francis (34:05):
next.
Know you're not bartending.
the-restaurant-guys_3_0 (34:07):
Francis and I cured that because how we
opened stage left is hebartended one night and I mare
Eid and then I bartended theother night and he mare Eid.
And that's how, that's how itstarted here in 1992.
Well, you know what, in the end,I think one of the things that
that got us to step out frombehind the bar was.
We are behind the bar.
And if you're the bartender, youare standing.
(34:28):
Everyone else is sitting.
You're the center of attention.
This is your house.
Everyone knows you can cut themoff.
Everyone knows, maybe you canbuy them a free drink.
Everyone knows you're in charge.
It's just a cultural positionthe bartender holds and it's
very important.
Francis (34:39):
we train our bartenders what
the-restaurant-guys_3_08-0 (34:41):
what I want you to be focused on is,
you know, make sure no one'ssneaking anything out the back
door, but focus on your room,your house, and.
What we found was that whenbehind our bar, I see something
go wrong in the, the diningroom, and it's my restaurant.
I wasn't as good a bartender asI, as I would've been working
for somebody else.
And so you're constantly lookingover the, of your guests that
(35:03):
are sitting right in front ofyou.
Mm-hmm.
neal-bodenheimer--he-him-_1 (35:05):
you just realize there are all these
things happening in the roomthat you, it's your
responsibility to handle and youcan't handle them from behind
the bar.
you realize that like you cancontinue to bartend and hire a
manager who's responsible forthat, or you can do what you're
supposed to do, which is, notwork down, but work up.
the-restaurant-guys_3_08- (35:23):
Yeah.
Yeah.
neal-bodenheimer--he-hi (35:24):
that's, you know, that that's the thing
that happens over and over andover in this business is that
everybody wants to work down.
the-restaurant-guys_3_08-05- (35:33):
To be fair, there's no more fun job
in the world than being abartender.
Yeah.
It's the best.
I'm sorry, I'm the matri d ofthe restaurant.
Still I'm on the floorsometimes, uh, there's no more
fun job than being thebartender.
Francis (35:42):
I mean, look, I have a
neal-bodenheimer--he-hi (35:43):
fantasy that I would just go back to
parts me.
Now, I don't know how my bodywould feel about it, but,
the-restaurant-guys_3_08- (35:49):
Yeah.
Okay.
I'm gonna, you know, JackMcGarry from Dead Rabbit.
Is opening a place in NewJersey, an Irish pub in Jersey
City.
And he's gonna go back behindthe bar at least one day a week.
He's pledged to be behind thebar.
Okay.
At least one day a week.
Okay.
Francis (36:03):
Well,
neal-bodenheimer--he-him-_ (36:03):
Jack is the most overachieving,
hardest working dude of alltimes.
So if anybody can do it, Jack
Francis (36:10):
can do it.
the-restaurant-guys_3_08- (36:11):
Okay.
I don't know about you, Neil,uh, but I'm not, I'm guessing
you don't run a lot ofmarathons.
Mark, I know you don't run a lotof marathons, but Jack does run
marathons, so I think he's gonnabe okay.
I got behind the bar atChristmas time and, uh, I think
it was two hours.
We used to work three 12 hourshifts in a row, no problem.
We were threatened.
If I need to work a fourth, Iwork a fourth.
(36:31):
I got behind the bar atChristmas time for I think an
hour and a half, and I'm, andI'm in my office like bending
over, touching my toes, like,ah, you know, itsm Sure I
couldn't do it.
It's funny that the change, asI've gotten older is, you know,
around eight 30.
I need a little break.
the younger version of me.
(36:53):
10, 12, 14 hours, whatever itis.
I, I'll do it.
I, I'll throw down some ice teaor a Coca-Cola, an espresso in
the middle of the shift, andI'll, and I'll keep it moving.
That's, it doesn't move like itused to move.
That's, that's,
Francis (37:05):
I barely wanted
neal-bodenheimer--he-him-_1_ (37:06):
to go to the bathroom when I was
bartending behind
the-restaurant-guys_3_08- (37:08):
yeah.
Yeah, man, it was fun.
All right, so we need to changethe subject.
Or Jennifer, you need to put anundercarriage of glory days, uh,
playing under, under this, uh,reminiscent, uh, episode of the
show.
here's what I'm trying to get.
What made cure, I mean, theseare general business principles.
They're all good.
(37:28):
They're all things we believein.
But CURE stood out among a cityfull of amazing bars.
What made it the best bar in NewOrleans?
At that time to that madeeverybody notice and say, oh,
this is the bar to look at rightnow.
Francis (37:42):
Well, I mean, I
neal-bodenheimer--he-him- (37:42):
think there were a few things.
I mean, I think first of all, wewere young and dumb enough to do
stuff that was wildly unpopular
the-restaurant-guys_3_08- (37:49):
Like,
neal-bodenheimer--he-him-_ (37:51):
Like not carry brands that people
knew,
the-restaurant-guys_3_08- (37:54):
yeah,
neal-bodenheimer--he-hi (37:54):
because we wanted people out of their
comfort zone, enforce a dresscode in the early days, which
was, we do not really anymore,
the-restaurant-guys_3_08-0 (38:01):
what was the dress code?
neal-bodenheimer--he-him (38:03):
wildly unpopular.
We didn't allow shorts orbaseball caps
the-restaurant-guys_3_08-05 (38:06):
She didn't love in New Orleans.
neal-bodenheimer--he-him-_1 (38:09):
no, I wish I could have that back.
you know, yeah.
So, yeah, it was, uh, You know,we just had this idea of what we
wanted and we were prettyuncompromising to a fault.
I think.
I, I think as I get older, Irealize that, some of the
successes were because we wereuncompromising, but some of the
(38:30):
failures were too.
the-restaurant-guys_3_08-0 (38:31):
most of the people I know in this
business who are really, reallysuccessful, who are really,
really good at it, are prettyuncompromising.
With the things that they reallybelieve in.
And so maybe you made a misstepwith the, with the Shortz
policy, but I guarantee youthere are 10 other things you
did that were uncompromising,that were the difference makers
(38:52):
for you.
I guarantee it.
Francis (38:54):
Well,
neal-bodenheimer--he-him-_1 (38:55):
and certainly that was the case.
I mean, first of all, I thinkNew Orleans was very fertile
ground for what we were doing.
Like the first year of cure was.
The, the weekends were busy.
The week was like tumbleweeds
the-restaurant-guys_3_08-05- (39:08):
I.
neal-bodenheimer--he-him-_ (39:08):
and, you know, minus a few regulars
who loved cocktails, but peopledidn't know we were doing, they
didn't get it.
And, but we got it and it wasimportant to us.
I still pretty lucky that wedidn't go outta business in the
first year.
the-restaurant-guys_3_08-05 (39:22):
Try using egg whites in 1993.
See how that goes,
neal-bodenheimer--he-him-_1_0 (39:24):
I mean, look, you guys knocked
down.
The tall weeds we're standing.
We were standing on yourshoulders.
There's no doubt.
and, and look, we were havingthose same conversations too.
but New Orleans was fertileground.
We, you know, the, the thing wetalked about earlier, like this
is a city that values history,that valued things that were
culturally important.
And the and the Ramos Gen Fizzand the Vu Re and the entire
(39:47):
cannon of New Orleans cocktailswere culturally important.
We just felt disconnected.
And Cure opened, if you went tothe right bar on the right night
and got the right bartender, youcould get a good version of
those drinks.
But if you didn't, it was wildlyinconsistent.
And so what Cure was able to dowas to say, Hey, look, all of
(40:09):
our bartenders are gonna knowhow to make
the-restaurant-guys_3_08- (40:10):
These are the standards.
neal-bodenheimer--he-him-_ (40:12):
high quality bartenders and when you
walk in, we are gonna have astandard.
And, and I think that was a bigpart of it, but also.
Really the reason why we existtoday, it was not truly because
of New Orlean at the time.
It was because it was a timethat there were a lot of people
(40:33):
in from out of New Orleans.
Living in New Orleans in therebuild after Katrina Hollywood
South in New Orleans was really,running and gunning and there
were a lot.
We ended up getting a lot ofattention nationally.
I think that people that walkedin that were like, I don't know,
they don't have anything I want.
Like, I can't get a frickingJack and Coke here right now.
(40:54):
you know, this bar is not forme.
The drinks take forever.
you know, there is a thousandthings that people used to
complain about what we did, andrightfully so because it was, it
was counter to everything thatthey knew.
And it took outside peoplesaying, no, no, this place is
special.
something interesting happeninghere, that is happening
(41:15):
nationally that is happeninghere in New Orleans too.
When that happened, people camein primed in a better way.
We did not know how to tell ourstory.
We didn't know our story.
You know, now in the world of PRand so many other, I've learned
so much about how you tell thestory, and then guests can put
their experiences on top ofthat.
(41:37):
We weren't telling the story.
People were walking in cold andbeing like, what in the hell is
happening here?
the-restaurant-guys_3_08- (41:43):
Well, you had those early
Mark (41:44):
adopters though.
the-restaurant-guys_3_08- (41:45):
Those mavens, those people who, who
are the trendsetters, thosepeople who, who change people's
minds come to you and, andvalidate what you were doing.
And those are the kinds ofthings that if, if you wanna
make real changes in what'shappening in the world, you need
those people and they have to bepart of what you do.
And I just wanna, I, I wannapoint out that I'm not convinced
(42:07):
that your policy of not allowingshorts was a bad thing in the
end.
While certainly it did piss somepeople off.
And it's a little bit of likeanything that gets, you talked
about like you're walking a linethere.
I'm sure there are some of thosemavens who are like, oh, I get
it.
And okay, this is a coolcivilizing thing.
And maybe with those people youmade a positive impact.
(42:31):
And you know, I, it's, it was away to differentiate yourself
and you, you've walked away fromit since.
But I, I, I'm not convinced thatwasn't a good thing, that
Distinguished Cure early on andsaid, Hey, look, we're we're
different.
neal-bodenheimer--he-hi (42:44):
Mm-hmm.
Maybe.
And it, it's, it's, I I lookback at it and, you know,
there's no going back.
So I, I definitely see thepositives of, of the tone that
it set, but I also, I look atthe hospitality part of it and
it feels wrong to me now.
the-restaurant-guys_3_08-05- (43:02):
So you are a super successful guy,
one of the most successful barowners and restaurant owners in
the country, Uh, and we talk alot on this show about the,
things that worked out perfectlyin our history.
You.
Not all things work outperfectly.
You opened a, a, a really coolplace called Be Hook back in
2011.
And you know, looking back onit, if you opened it another
(43:24):
time, if you opened now, maybethat that bar has more success
than it had, tell us about thatplace and, and what you were
doing and'cause you were doingsome cool stuff.
There's no doubt about it.
neal-bodenheimer--he-him-_1 (43:35):
You know, I loved Belloc and I loved
what, you know, what we wereattempting to do.
And, but there's art in, there'sbusiness and often.
Restaurants and bars are thekind of the intersection and
restaurant bars, hotels are theintersection of both.
I, I think it was just wasn't agreat business, but it was a
(43:56):
really great bar.
Now that being said, it was, itwas on a hotel contract.
So we made it four and a halfyears on our five year contract,
and the hotel sold, and when thehotel sold, we had the ability
to get out.
the-restaurant-guys_3_08-0 (44:10):
tell people what the concept was and
how it worked.
'cause it's fascinating.
neal-bodenheimer--he-him-_1_ (44:13):
So Ock, we opened Bell Lock in the
winter of 2011.
and it was a bar that wasdevoted to the cobbler and it
was named after EJ Ock, who wasthe, kind of unofficial
Storyville photographer.
the-restaurant-guys_3_08-05 (44:31):
You need to tell people what a
cobbler is.
'cause most people are thinkingpeach cobbler right this
morning, or shoemaker.
neal-bodenheimer--he-him-_1_ (44:36):
So cobbler, so a cobbler was
arguably the most popularcocktail in the late 19th
century.
there are a few reasons why, butwhat made it.
Kind of groundbreaking wasnumber one, it was crushed ice
number two.
It was the first cocktail thatused the straw.
so you didn't have your face incrushed ice and bits.
(44:59):
And, but it was also to getthings past your teeth.
'cause people, didn't have asgood a teeth as we have today.
Uh, at least sometimes.
but it also used fortified wine.
But you could make a cobblerwith anything.
You could fortified wine, youcould use vermouth, you could
use, um, know, you could usespirits, you could use cordials.
(45:19):
It was just this thing that youcould do anything with.
And, you know, we were sostupid.
We were just like cobblers.
And then we had a spirit listand a wine list that was so
fricking dumb, but also awesome.
so basically a cobbler when in atime before potable water was a
thing, a cobbler was theequivalent of like a bottled
(45:42):
water or like a Sprite.
And it was, uh, mostly lowproof, always shaken, um, always
un crushed ice and garnishedwith, in a fanciful way, um,
fruit season, whatever.
I mean, the bigger, the more,the better it was.
It's a great cocktail, greatcocktail format.
(46:02):
The Sherry Cobbler beingprobably the highest form of it
and the most popular form of it.
I've had some cobbler withthings like Bon Uh, I've had
things like, I've had it withDolce Monas, like, know, you can
use anything.
And it, they're good.
Like a little bit of likegrapefruit liqueur and a co,
(46:23):
like a grapefruit.
LA cobbler is like delicious.
the-restaurant-guys_3_08- (46:26):
Well, you need to know that there are
very few bars that I missed thatI wish I hadn't missed, and Bela
is one of those bars that I,that I never got to, and I'm
like, oh, I should have gotthere.
Francis (46:41):
Oh, well,
neal-bodenheimer--he-him-_1_ (46:41):
we would've loved to have had you.
know, by the time we werefinished, and I, I've talked to
my business partner, Kirk, Opalabout it in the past, and we're
like, and Kirk, Kirk ran LOCmostly, I'm always like, Kirk,
well, you know, should we giveBell lock another shot?
Like was low proof drinking,like super on trend now, way
(47:02):
ahead of its time at the, youknow, at the time.
Like, should we give it, shouldwe give it another try and do
something?
And he is like, no.
the-restaurant-guys_3_08-05- (47:13):
He lived it.
He lived it.
neal-bodenheimer--he-him-_1_ (47:14):
He is like, I lived it.
I am good.
I never want to do it again.
the-restaurant-guys_3_ (47:18):
Alright, so.
A way for people to not miss anybars that they need to hit in
New Orleans and how to getaround in New Orleans and your
Mardi Gras and other times is Ilove your book.
pure New Orleans Drinks and Howto Mix'em.
It's way more than a cocktailbook.
It's kind of a guide to NewOrleans with a cocktail
accompaniment all along and.
I want you to talk about thatbook and, and the things, the
(47:40):
stories you choose to tell.
Mark and I, we were down in NewOrleans earlier this year, and
you know, one of the things thatyou see in the news a lot, which
touches on what you were sayingearlier about, you know, no
shorts.
I read about European citiesespecially, but other cities
that are small cities that arebeing loved to death, um, over
touristed.
You know, uh, Venice is a, acity we hear about a lot, Um,
(48:04):
but New Orleans seems to be sooriented around.
Tourism that you, that it, youcan't be loved to death, like no
matter how many tourists come.
The stuff that you talk about,about the cruise and Mardi Gras,
it's able to absorb tourists,yet keep its authentic character
in place.
That's our impression from theoutside.
(48:26):
is that true?
Francis (48:27):
Well.
You
neal-bodenheimer--he-him- (48:29):
know, the, the tagline for New Orleans
Company, which is our tourismagency, is that New Orleans is
built to host.
It is.
I mean, new Orleans is designedfor that.
Tourism is our largest industry.
that's not to say that wehaven't seen some things slide
over the years.
I mean, I remember my first job,you know, my first restaurant
(48:49):
job, not my first bar job at 19years old, uh, in the French
Quarter, and.
Having to turn people away thatwere dressed inappropriately.
But now most restaurants arelike, look, we need the
business,
the-restaurant-guys_3_08- (49:01):
Yeah.
neal-bodenheimer--he-him-_ (49:02):
over the summer.
Like, they're like, I don't carewhat you're dressed like, come
on in.
And there's
the-restaurant-guys_3_08- (49:07):
Yeah.
neal-bodenheimer--he-him-_ (49:07):
some restaurants, some, some old
guard restaurants that reallytry and walk, walk that line.
You know, like GVA still hastheir jackets.
You know, you walk in without ajacket, they're gonna give you a
jacket to wear.
And I love that.
I really do.
I think it, I think standardsmatter.
being said.
New Orleans wants to be loved.
It's what,
the-restaurant-guys_3_08- (49:26):
Yeah.
neal-bodenheimer--he-him-_ (49:27):
what we do.
We want to host people.
it's just part of our cultureand, it's, it's important me to,
to make sure that people in theworld know that, that we, we
want you to come to New Orleans.
We want you to experience it,but we just don't want you to
experience the French Quarterand the French quarter's great.
But we want you to get out andexperience the whole city.
(49:49):
it's not just one area.
Uh, and that area is built fortourism, don't get me wrong, but
if you want to peel back thelayers and see what real New
Orleans is, it's not truly inthe French Quarter.
There aren't just aren't thatmany people that live in the
French Quarter
Francis (50:05):
anymore.
the-restaurant-guys_3_08-05- (50:06):
to your point.
One of the things that I, let'stake Mardi Gras for example, and
your book has a great guide forlike what to do in Mardi Gras
and how to spend your, your,your Mardi Gras, should you
visit New Orleans at that time.
And you also talk about how youspend your Mardi Gras there.
And I guess my point about whereNew New Orleans to me seems
particularly resilient is thateven with something like the
(50:27):
Mardi Gras celebrations, they'reobviously dependent on the
tourists that come in by thethousands to enjoy it.
But it's.
It's still about the crews thathave been there for decades and
more It's its own authenticthing and it retains its
authenticity and yet it figuresout a way that can let thousands
of people come in andparticipate.
(50:48):
And, and I think that's reallyunique about New Orleans, that
it doesn't become a museum ofits former self.
Francis (50:55):
No, it's living and breathing.
It's, look, it's
neal-bodenheimer--he-him- (50:58):
ours, but we'd love to share.
and that's the thing about NewOrleans and Mardi Gras and Jazz
Fest and all the multiple thingsthat we do.
It, they're, they're ours, butwe love to share, you know,
that's what we do.
That's what hospitality is,sharing of yourself.
That's what we do, what allthree of us do every night.
(51:21):
And that's what New Orleans doesevery fricking
Francis (51:25):
second of every day.
the-restaurant-guys_3_08-05- (51:27):
we did not even touch on tales of
the cocktail, which you were onboard of directors of.
But here's what we're gonna do.
Francis and I did a live showfrom, from Tales this year with,
with Jeff Berry, this past
Francis (51:39):
Jeff.
the-restaurant-guys_3_08-05- (51:40):
we are going to.
Try and do another live showfrom Tales except in a bigger
format with a lot of differentguests.
And, we're gonna ask if you'lljoin us for that live show from
Tales while we're there next.
Francis (51:53):
I would be
neal-bodenheimer--he-h (51:53):
honored, and I think you should do
multiple live shows from tales,
the-restaurant-guys_3_08-05 (51:58):
All right.
neal-bodenheimer--he-him-_ (51:58):
just one big one.
You guys should
Francis (52:00):
be doing all week.
Let's
the-restaurant-guys_3_08 (52:01):
right.
We're in, we're in.
Let's go.
I feel like Mark just committedme to a whole lot of work that I
wasn't.
neal-bodenheimer--he-him-_1_0 (52:08):
I mean, I
the-restaurant-guys_3_08-0 (52:10):
Stay tuned.
neal-bodenheimer--he-h (52:11):
Francis, that can't be the first time
Mark has committed
the-restaurant-guys_3_08-05- (52:13):
Oh no.
neal-bodenheimer--he-him-_1 (52:14):
lot of work.
the-restaurant-guys_3_08-05- (52:14):
We do this to each other all the
time.
I would tell you usually itworks in the opposite.
Yeah, it's it's usually theopposite.
Yeah, it's true.
It's true.
Alright, so we prepare for tales2026, mark and I have just
started planning it.
You watch it here, Neil.
Uh, it's been a long timecoming.
it's been a pleasure to talk toyou.
We have admired your work for along time and it's great to have
a conversation.
(52:35):
I can't wait to meet you inperson again.
Francis (52:37):
Yeah, it's,
neal-bodenheimer--he-him-_1 (52:38):
uh, you know what an honor to be on
with you guys, and thank you somuch for what you've done to
make my career possible, becauseif it's not for you guys doing
what you do, there's no way Icould have done what I do.
the-restaurant-guys_3_08 (52:51):
That's amazing and because.
you're from New Orleans I can'tget that thought out of my head
You just keep doing that voodoothat you do so well, Neal
Bodenheimer.
Well, uh, I hope you guys haveenjoyed this half as much as I
have.
we'll be back in just a moment.
You're listening to theRestaurant guys.
You can always find outmore@restaurantguyspodcast.com.
the-restaurant-guys_3_08-0 (53:30):
Hey, everybody.
Welcome back.
That was fun.
I love Neil Bodenheimer all ofhis restaurants.
By the way, his book is amazing.
You should buy it.
We'll put it in the show notes.
It's, it's more than just arecipe book.
thought I wanted to talk to himabout that.
I didn't get to, So I wasreminded of something when We
were talking about gettingbehind the bar of your own
restaurant.
Mm-hmm.
And how when you're behind thebar.
If you own the place, it, it'svery hard to not worry about the
(53:54):
line at the bathroom or thatthere's a problem in another
section, which keeps you frombeing a really good bartender.
Or worse, you see there's aninteraction going on and maybe
you don't like the way it'sbeing handled and you wanna go
over there and you want to gothere and you want to fix it.
Yeah.
Well, and you can't fix thingswhen you're behind the bar.
So I have a, a, a tangentialexperience.
(54:16):
So there's a place called theStage House.
I had one of those once I wasLevitating above the bed.
You mean a transcendentalexperience?
Yeah, that's what I mean.
Okay.
That's, that's good.
Okay.
Archie Bunker.
You're Mr.
Malaprop today.
Um, so I was dating someoneyears ago.
I mean, this was.
1990s we'd gone on a few dates.
after the second date, she said,well, why don't, why don't you
(54:39):
bring me to your restaurant?
You have a restaurant.
Why, why don't we go to yourrestaurant?
And I said, you know what, we'lldo that.
But honestly, I.
There's a cost to going to myrestaurant.
You're not ready to come to myrestaurant with me.
And I said, you know, when I'min my restaurant, I own the
restaurant.
I can't not be the owner of therestaurant.
And so what I'd like to do is goout someplace where you and I
(55:01):
can have a conversation and allof my attention is that with you
and hopefully all of yours iswith me.
If we go to my restaurant.
I, some of my attention,depending on what happens,
somewhere between 20 and 90% ofmy attention will be someplace
else.
And she said, oh, okay.
I kind of accept that.
And I, we went to the StageHouse Inn, uh, which was owned
(55:22):
by somebody different back then.
Mm-hmm.
And we had consulted for them inthe beginning.
So, and I had worked on theirfloor a number of nights, so I
knew what was going on and whereeverything was, and where the
plumbing was and what theproblems were.
And we were sitting in thedining room on a beautiful
night.
Elvin was the maitre d.
Mm-hmm.
we're having a lovely dinner.
We were drinking champagne andeating caviar.
when I noticed three tablesover, water began to drip down
(55:43):
from the ceiling.
And I kind of waved Elvin over'cause he hadn't noticed yet.
And I said, um, Elvin.
Yeah.
Okay.
Um, the urinal in the men'sbathroom upstairs is overflowing
again.
And he said, oh my God.
And he ran and he's runningaround like maniacs.
'cause the thing is, once youstop that flood mm-hmm.
There's still stuff in theceiling and that's gonna keep
coming down for another.
15 minutes.
(56:04):
So they're moving stuff aroundin the dining room and guys are
running upstairs trying to stopthe leak.
And I was very calmly drinkingmy champagne and having my
caveat, it's better'cause you'renot the guy stopping the urinal
clock.
And what I said was, I said,this is why we went to somebody
else's restaurant.
You know why?
Because that not my fuckingproblem.
Okay.
Yeah.
Poor Jennifer has spent manyhours alone at our table when we
(56:27):
came into dinner.
Of course.
Sorry honey.
I mean, because if there's aleak, you, you gotta fix the
leak and whoever you're with issitting alone in the restaurant
cell or, or somebody comes inwho you are very friendly with.
You need to acknowledge thatperson, but, or if the mayor
comes in or if the governorcomes in, or, but it's, it's, it
was very funny because sittingat this table, I was facing leak
(56:47):
and she was facing me, but onceshe was aware of the leak, she
was a little upset by the leakwhere I was like.
Gimme some more champagne.
This is, this is fine.
This ain't my leak.
It's not leaking on me.
This ain't my leak.
And it ain't my leak Well, sothat was a little story that I
thought was tangential.
Uh, hopefully you've enjoyed thehour as much as we have.
I'm Francis Scott.
And I'm Mark Pascal.
We are the restaurant guys.
You can always find outmore@restaurantguyspodcast.com.
Hello everybody, and welcome.
You are listening to theRestaurant Guys.
I'm Mark Pascal and I'm herewith Francis Shot.
Together we own stage left inCatherine Lombardi, restaurants
in New Brunswick, New Jersey.
We are here to bring you theinside track on food, wine, and
the finer things in life.
Hello, mark.
Hey Francis, how are you?
Francis (01:15):
I'm, I'm Grand, thanks.
We are going to be talking toNeil Bodenheimer in just a
little bit.
He is a famous rest turf fromNew Orleans.
We love his places, we love hiswork.
And, uh, we'll be talking to himin just a minute, What are we
talking about today?
Mark (01:27):
Today I want to talk about a misconception in the
restaurant businessmisconception.
One of my favorite words.
Do you know that?
Do you know that if you don'tsin while you're thinking
something wrong, you know whatthat is?
What is it?
It's an immaculatemisconception.
I think we should go home.
I think that should end, weshould end the show right now.
Do you know what, in the beautycontest, the, the woman who
(01:47):
thinks of the most things, knowwhat a title.
She wins What Misconception.
Okay, stop it.
Okay.
I'm sorry.
Stop it.
I'm sorry.
Okay, go ahead.
Alright, so one of the bigmisconceptions in the restaurant
business.
Yeah.
Is that, actors make greatwaiters.
Now, hold on a second.
There's that old joke ofanother, the guy who's getting
bad service, he's like, are youan actor?
(02:07):
He is like, yeah.
He is like, well, could you actlike a waiter and bring me my
lunch?
Um, I think that for a lot ofpeople in entertainment long
term, restaurants can be greatjobs for actors.
because it can be seasonal, itcan be occasional, but it, I
think restaurants are a greatjob.
For actors.
(02:28):
I don't know that necessarilyrestaurants want to be hiring
actors as much as people thinkthey do.
I agree.
I know what you're gonna say asto why though.
So tell, tell us why.
So, and we'll, we'll tell astory later on about the, the
first season we were open, butactors.
We'll always leave you high anddry.
Well, if they get that part, youknow, they'll some For an
(02:51):
audition.
Yeah, for a good audition.
And you know what?
That's their dream.
That's what they want to be.
A hundred percent.
And you know what I want?
Waiters.
I want, I want people who wannabe really good waiters.
I want people who lovehospitality.
I want people who are, who arehere for all the right reasons
and not'cause it fits theirschedule well.
Alright, I wanna push back onthat just a little bit.
Well, go ahead.
(03:11):
You are right.
No, you are right.
But I wanna push back on that alittle bit.
I think a lot of people are inthe restaurant business because
you can't only be in it becauseof the schedule, you're gonna be
a crappy waiter.
Mm-hmm.
But a lot of people.
Have another thing to do, andthey're a teacher and they want
to work two or three nights aweek.
Sure.
Or, or they have another whereit does fit into their schedule.
(03:31):
The problem with waiters, actorsbeing waiters is, especially if
you're in a place where you'rein LA or you're in New York.
Mm-hmm.
If it's a, if they're a goodactor, when Spielberg calls,
they're going Right.
They're going and you, they'regoing and there's no ands or
buts.
They're going and so they can'tbe, and there's no notice I
think that very, very oftenthere can be notice, but what
you gotta realize, if you'rehiring an actor who's actively
(03:53):
looking for roles, uh, thatthey're gonna go with mm-hmm.
With no notice.
but I also think there arepeople who it schedule can be an
important part of being awaiter, but there's stability
and predictability.
And I think part of it is yougotta realize that if you are a
waiter and or you are anemployee of a business, you owe
that business something and theyowe you something.
(04:13):
So, you know, I, I listen.
Actors, it's their job topretend.
Yeah, that's true too.
Okay.
That's true.
And what I don't want is I don'twant you pretending to be
hospitable.
even if you're good at it, whatI want, is people who are
hospitable, who are enjoyingtheir job, who do love this.
Now, it doesn't mean if you'rean actor, you won't be
hospitable.
Right.
It just means you're good atpretending to be hospitable.
(04:37):
Yeah.
But I mean, you know, that'swhat an actor is in any in life
in general.
You, you, you, you know.
Yeah.
I don't want them to be mywaiters.
That's, that's all I said aboutthat.
See?
Well, we, why don't you tell thestory of our first summer when
we had a bunch of actors.
First summer stage left, forthose of you who don't know, is
next to three theaters in NewBrunswick, and we have an acting
school and an acting school.
And MFA one of a a Rutgers has agreat MFA program in at, uh,
(04:58):
Mason Grove School of the Arts.
Shout out.
So, we opened on May 22nd.
Mm.
So our very first cadra of, ofwaiters were all actors from the
MFA school.
Basically, it got around that wewere hiring, we were called
stage left.
We were next to the theaters,and we must have had, of our
(05:18):
first 30 employees, I'll bet 15of them were actors.
Yeah.
In enrolled in the graduateschool of acting or directors or
whatever, whatever.
in the graduate school.
And September came.
Uh huh And they were all like,we gotta go back to school.
And we're like, wait a second.
You said you were gonna workthis semester.
We're like, yeah, we lied.
That's just we, I'm sorry we, wedidn't know we were gonna like
(05:39):
you so much.
We didn't know we were gonnalike it here so much.
Yeah.
And we had to scramble.
We had to scramble'cause all ofour actors had to go back we had
one of those guys though, said.
I need to keep working.
If you can help work around myridiculous MFA schedule here, I
would like to keep working hereover the next time period.
And he worked here for likeanother year.
(06:00):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Do you remember the guy, wasthat Eddie?
That was Eddie.
Eddie.
Okay.
So I'm gonna tell a story andI'm gonna use, and I'm gonna use
his name because his name'simportant.
So Eddie's name Yeah.
Was Eddie Murphy.
Right.
Okay.
Right, right, right, right,right, right.
Eddie Murphy.
So it's 1992.
And you, you can't use that.
(06:22):
You can't be Eddie Murphy.
You can't use that.
There's, there's already anEddie Murphy.
So he is already got that kindof, that that one thing he's
gotta, change his name.
He changed his name to EddieLee.
It's great.
He successfully does a great, hewas in a great show over at
Crossroads Theater.
He was in a bunch of other greatthings, do you remember when he
caught his really big break?
No, his, his really big break,he got the New York Lotto
(06:44):
commercials.
Oh yeah, that's right.
And he got to be in these NewYork lotto commercials and it
was a whole series ofcommercials.
And I don't know if you rememberthe two guys, middle-aged black
dad.
He was a middle aged, middleaged black dad in all different
kinds of outfits.
It's like, it's like 20 yearslater and he gets this great
commercial that's gonna be, youknow, a hundred commercials over
the next two years.
And he's totally made it, right.
(07:05):
Yeah.
Yeah.
He's good to go.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Eight commercials in New Yorkpasses a law that the lottery
can't advertise.
Oh, I do remember that.
And we're like, oh no.
And they cancel.
His set of commercials brutal.
A year later, they reversed thelaw.
And they hire new guys to be thelottery guys.
(07:26):
Dude, I'm like, that was rough.
And this guy's what a good guythis is.
Right.
Super good guy.
And, and I can't like, you'relike, yeah, he made it.
Hooray.
Whoops.
that's why you should be awaiter and not an actor because
this is, you know, ha.
That never happens.
Okay, let's do a little walkdown memory lane.
One of the other guys, you and Ihad a similar experience.
(07:47):
I forget which one, saw it firstand pointed out the other.
Sitting in the movie theater.
And he was the guy, and you'regonna have the names because I'm
terrible with names.
Super nice guy was in that classand he was the male, half the
couple of scuba divers that gotleft behind.
Yes.
What was that called?
Dan Travis was in a movie calledOpen Water.
I remember it was Dan Travis,open Water.
And so I watched that movie.
(08:08):
It was okay.
It was okay movie, but I got seemy waiter in the middle of the
ocean, been attacked byjellyfish.
So we called him up.
Sharks, but No, but jellyfishtoo.
Jellyfish.
Oh, jellyfish too.
Yes.
And the thing about it was hetold us they shot it.
It was a brutal acting role.
Yeah.
Spent a lot of time in thewater.
That was actually a school ofjellyfish that came by and they
shot it.
Now they keep rolling.
He's like, keep rolling.
(08:29):
So there's another actor who wasa waiter that I want to share
with you.
An interaction I had thismorning.
Okay.
Dale DeGraff.
Okay.
Came to New York.
Came from la Mel was an actor.
That's true.
Yep.
Came from la, came to New Yorkto make it show.
So maybe you're just trying to,to turn my argument into
rubbish, right?
No, he didn't make it.
Thank God for the cocktail.
He did make it.
He did make it right.
Well, thank God for the cocktailworld.
(08:50):
He didn't make it on Broadwaybecause he became the most, uh,
famous bartender in the world.
So he's.
He's staying at my house.
He's staying over for a coupleof days.
He's doing a couple of seminars,and as you know, he has his
wonderful pimento bids, theDeGraff bidders.
Yep.
And, uh, he's, he's catching thetrain down from where he lives I
get a text, he's like, I'm gonnabeat your house in about 20
(09:10):
minutes, and he's staying overtonight.
He's like, I forgot a couplethings at home.
He's like, yeah, he's like.
You wouldn't by chance have anunopened bottle of Dale Degra
Pimento bitters.
I'm like, fortunately Dale.
I do.
And then he said, you wouldn'thappen to have an aromatize full
of absent, would you?
(09:31):
I was like.
As a matter of fact, I do.
And so before we came to recordthis segment, I left Dale a very
impressed Dale Degra with bothof those things on his bed,
everything but a mint forturndown service.
So the mighty Adam.
That's pretty good though, huh?
There you go.
That's pretty good.
Excellent.
I don't think, and he, he'slike, I don't think there are
five places in the world.
I could, four star hotels.
(09:52):
I couldn't call and get thiskind of service.
I'm like, yeah, it's good to be,it's good to be friends with the
dork like you.
That's awesome.
And there we go.
That's good news.
we'll move back in just amoment.
We'll be talking with NeilBodenheimer from New Orleans.
Stick with us.
the-restaurant-guys_3_08-05 (10:03):
Hey there everybody.
Welcome back.
Our guest today is NeilBodenheimer.
He is a managing partner of CureCompany, the acclaimed group
behind in New Orleans CureCanaan Table and Vals.
Uh, he is partner Delphine's inWashington and he runs beverage
operations at Pecho andCelestine.
He's a James Beard Award foroutstanding Bar program.
World's 50 best bars, northAmerica's 50 best bars in 2025.
(10:27):
Cure was named the Best bar inthe US by Food and Wine
Magazine.
His other properties get similaraccolades.
First cocktail book, cure NewOrleans drinks and how to mix
'em.
Received an IACP award and was afinalist for a James Beard Award
as well.
And after our many in recenttrips to New Orleans, we
couldn't be happier to welcomehim to the restaurant guys
(10:47):
today.
Neil Bodenheimer, welcome to theshow.
Mark (10:49):
Guys, thank you so much for having me on.
I'm really excited to get achance to sit here and chat with
you.
the-restaurant-guys_3_08- (10:55):
Yeah.
You know, we were talking alittle bit before we came on
about our group of, friends andacquaintances has a lot of
overlap.
I'm surprised we haven't had youon the show before.
neal-bodenheimer--he-him- (11:05):
Well, you know, in all good time
things, things, uh, happen and,you know, it feels serendipitous
given how many people we know,you know, so many of our mutual
friends.
So, um, you know, it's whatmakes me even more excited to
sit down with you guys.
the-restaurant-guys_3_08- (11:19):
We've done a lot of shows, around New
Orleans this year.
And New Orleans is a fascinatingcity that deserves a lot of
shows, but you are like severalpeople.
We've spoken to a native newOrian who went and traveled and
then wound up coming back.
But you started when you firstcame on our radar.
You were in New York City somany years ago.
Tell us about your experience inNew York and then coming back.
neal-bodenheimer--he-him- (11:41):
Well, um, you know, I didn't move to
New York to get into therestaurant business.
Um, like, like so many people.
I needed a job and I, I movedlike right after nine 11 and,
um.
There were no jobs to be had.
I was trying to get a job inadvertising and, uh, I needed
(12:01):
income immediately.
And I put in an application atthe Atlantic Grill, which was
right around the corner from myfirst apartment in New York on
the Upper East Side, and I washired.
I made lots of mistakes in theearly part.
I was very surprised that theylet me continue working there
and I was able to work my way upfrom server to bartender there.
(12:22):
my friend Evan Clem came on isbe our guest's first corporate
mixologist, and he was one ofthe, one of the country's first
corporate
the-restaurant-guys_3_08- (12:31):
Yeah, super, super talented guy too.
Just really changed theindustry.
Just yeah, just a, a reallyforward thinking guy.
Francis (12:38):
Very
neal-bodenheimer--he-hi (12:39):
forward thinking and.
A wonderful guy and he reallydid a lot to take me under his
wing in that, at, at that time.
And then I also had a very closefriend of mine, Vincent Favela,
who's been a longtime bartenderaround New York, and, um, used
to work at Alma Drafthouse intheir corporate, He also took me
under his wing and I just lovedit.
(13:00):
I mean, there was just, it'slike a fish to water.
I'm, I'm, I'm a history majorand the thing that I loved most
about what we do is that everybottle, every cocktail, had a
story, had a history, and I wasjust taken by it.
And so that's how I ended upreally getting into it.
I continued to work for SteveHanson.
I transferred downtown worked inan Italian restaurant, um,
(13:23):
called Vento that was downthere.
And then I transferred withinVento down to the club that we
opened called Level V, and I wasa nightclub bartender.
One point I was bartending aboutthree nights a week, only in New
York, which was, uh.
Which was crazy.
Those were crazy times.
and then eventually I wanted alittle more balance in my life
and went to work for Danny Meyerat the Modern, uh, and I was
(13:45):
there when the modern won best,the James Beard Award for best
new restaurant.
And the modern really taught me,I, I think Hansen's company
really taught me the nuts andbolts then I think that Danny
Meyer really showed me how to bean owner and a leader in
hospitality.
(14:05):
it.
the-restaurant-guys_3_08- (14:08):
Well, the modern, was even a, a
departure for Danny, right?
Museum restaurants.
Were a place that you grab thesandwich and you, and you, you
moved along through the museum,right?
Right.
It was a, it was your 15 minutebreak, uh, between exhibits and
Danny's like, no.
the modern is gonna be a placewhere you go and spend two hours
and it's gonna be part of yourmuseum experience.
(14:30):
Yeah.
It's not just gonna be somethingyou do to, to fuel yourself
between exhibits
Francis (14:35):
Yeah, and it, and it was interesting
neal-bodenheimer--he-hi (14:36):
because so many of our clients there.
I mean some of them were museumgo goers, but a lot of people
were just in the neighborhoodand worked in the neighborhood
and were taking meetings and,um, it felt very much to me,
like any average.
I mean, and, and I don't meanthat it was average, but I mean
that the bar scene itself in thebar room was like very New York
(14:59):
to me.
It wasn't just people comingfrom all over the country.
It wasn't.
the-restaurant-guys_3_08-0 (15:05):
You, you talked about earlier, and
it's something that we come backto all the time, is that, you
know, with food, and especiallywith cocktails, if.
It's not, and part of our job isto contextualize everything,
right?
I mean, if, if I just bring youa cocktail and I don't know
what's in it and I can't tellyou what's in it, and it's just
a bunch of flavors that thebartender who's been bartending
(15:27):
for six weeks threw together andsaw thought tasted good.
Um.
That's not really a valuablecocktail.
You know, part of our job is tobring you great stuff and also
to contextualize it, to know thebackstory and be part of the
present so we can lead to thefuture where, where somebody
else has passed.
And you said your history major,and you obviously embrace that
(15:48):
as a central part of this.
And now you've come down to NewOrleans where being part of the
story is part of your.
Everything you do is kind ofguided by that.
Well, our listeners haven'tlearned anything about New
Orleans,
Mark (16:01):
New Orleans is rife with restaurant history.
it's rife with cocktail and foodand, and restaurant history.
neal-bodenheimer--he-him- (16:07):
It's, and, and look, that is.
That's how I was raised.
I mean, history is a part of oureveryday life in New Orleans,
and I, I like to say it's like abroken record.
New Orleans, the story of NewOrleans is the relationship
between preservation andprogress.
And so for me, you, how can youtell the story of a cocktail?
(16:29):
How can you serve someone acocktail without talking about.
Its history and its provenanceand you know, that is, that's
the whole point to me is thestorytelling and then.
The, the end of the story is thefirst sip, is the second sip is
the finish.
it just, it's part of what wedo.
and that's not just incocktails, that is in.
(16:52):
world of spirits.
That's, I mean, a greatsommelier tells you the story of
where, of where a wine camefrom, how it was made, who made
it, who are the people, where dothey live?
What is the slope?
Look, you know, there's just somany things that, that you try
and tell your guests to makesure that they feel attached to
what they're consuming.
the-restaurant-guys_3_08-0 (17:13):
It's funny you say that.
Literally last night I wastableside and somebody got a
bottle of Glenn Counterpoint andI was talking to them about.
You know the Baals and SatinaBhel and Laurel Glenn has its
own specific clone of Cabernetthat is grown at Laurel Glen and
other people now are growing it.
(17:34):
But only from that Laurel Glennbegan this clone of Cabernet
and.
I increased their enjoyment ofthat wine fivefold, because was
causing them to look deeperinto, into what they were having
and made them enjoy it more.
It, it's as, it's as simple asthat.
I just, I wanna interject here'cause I think some people may
(17:55):
be skeptical of the stories wetell and there are lots of
people out there tellingbullshit stories.
So let's, let's be clear.
Um, so the, the idea though iswhat I say about wine is the
things that Mark are saying arewhy the wine tastes specifically
the way it does.
That particular clonal selectionis different than any other
cabernet in the world.
(18:15):
And once you recognize that, youcan taste that their specific
area where they are.
On Sonoma Mountain, on theSonoma side, but above the cloud
line that is reflected in thetaste of the bottle.
It's not just a story of ithappens to be that way.
And so what I say about a, abottle of wine is you can save
time in a bottle and place in abottle, and that's it.
(18:37):
And we are here to give you thebackground so you can understand
the story that you areparticipating in.
And I think the cocktail doesthe same thing.
But you helped to move the storyof New Orleans Forward and that
you're participating in rightnow.
You're in New York, you'recalled back to New Orleans.
What happened to bring you backthere and what was your
intentionality when you wentback to New Orleans?
Why'd you go back and what didyou intend to do there?
Francis (19:00):
Well, long
neal-bodenheimer--he-him (19:01):
story, but I'll try and make it as
short as I can.
Um, but you know, just gettingback really quickly to the, to
the story.
Of, of drinks it.
The thing that I love about thestorytelling and about this idea
of a moment in a bottle, amoment in a glass, is that it
personalizes the experience forpeople.
(19:23):
And I think that's reallypowerful.
so I'm in New York, I'm.
Working on what would eventuallybecome Cure.
Cure was supposed to be in NewYork, and then ca you know,
Katrina happens in, at the endof August.
I am working at the modern andworking at the, at the club, the
meat packing district, it.
(19:45):
Absolutely devastates NewOrleans.
And I think any new orian thatdidn't live in New Orleans was
like, well, who's gonna rebuildthis city if new there?
And I felt a big call back.
At the same time, I was alsoconfronting the reality of what
life in New York would look likefor me if I stayed in New York
(20:06):
much longer.
I remember I walked by thisreally.
Terrible looking apartment inthe West Village and I said, no.
No matter how this, howsuccessful this bar venture is
that I'm working on, I can neverafford to live there and that
place sucks.
the-restaurant-guys_3_08- (20:26):
Yeah.
neal-bodenheimer--he-him-_1_ (20:28):
So that also helped too.
but I did genuinely feel a callto come back home.
my brother worked for the cityat that time.
Uh, my sister worked for CNN andshe was covering Katrina and I
felt like everybody in my worldwas focused on New Orleans and,
and I just felt like I wanted tobe a part of the story, the next
chapter of New Orleans.
(20:49):
And you know, so much.
I'm very aware because of mybackground, of what goes in the
historical record and what'sgonna happen, and I wanted to be
a part of it.
my joy and desire to be in NewYork, which was pretty high
until Katrina just went away andI said, I need to go back home.
the-restaurant-guys_3_08- (21:10):
Well, There was a common thread that
Francis and I, again, have beentalking to a lot of folks from
New Orleans and a lot of peoplewho have reinvigorated New
Orleans over over the last 20,30 years, uh, or longer.
And the common thread seems tobe.
That when the chips are down inNew Orleans, you guys are
(21:32):
running to New Orleans, like thefiremen.
While everybody else is fleeingNew Orleans, there's, there's a
cadre of people who are runningto New Orleans and saying, this
city is worth saving.
We have to save this city.
We have to.
It has so much glory, it has somuch history.
We have to bring it back to thatformer glory.
Francis (21:51):
It does and
neal-bodenheimer--he-him- (21:52):
look.
If you look at the great floodof 1927, like New Orleans was a
large city in 1927, I think itwas one of the, I think it was
one of the largest in thecountry.
And every time a disasterhappens, the population
decreases and the city isdiminished.
Um, you know, I do have deepconcerns about the long-term
(22:16):
viability of New Orleans.
I would have to have my head inthe sand if I didn't.
Just given where our environmentis going, uh, new Orleans is
already, at or below sea level
the-restaurant-guys_3_08-05 (22:26):
And sea levels going up, not down.
neal-bodenheimer--he-him-_1 (22:28):
and sea levels going up.
So I would have to be, to thinkthat, that things are gonna get
easier in New Orleans and notharder.
I do have the discussions withmy daughter where I'm like, and
she's young, where I'm like,Hey, like you're always be a New
Orleans girl, but like, I don'tknow if you're gonna be able to
live here when you're
the-restaurant-guys_3_0 (22:46):
Mm-hmm.
neal-bodenheimer--he-him-_1 (22:47):
Um, which is sad, but at
the-restaurant-guys_3_08- (22:49):
Yeah.
neal-bodenheimer--he-him- (22:49):
time, like I still believe in New
Orleans even with all of that.
I still believe in the culture.
I still believe in my home.
It's very personal to me andit's personal to everybody that
you've had on your show.
Like if you love a place and theplace is special, and that's not
to say that New Orleans doesn'tdrive me fucking crazy.
the-restaurant-guys_3_08- (23:10):
Yeah,
neal-bodenheimer--he-him-_1_ (23:10):
to curse on your
the-restaurant-guys_3_08- (23:11):
Yeah.
neal-bodenheimer--he-him-_1 (23:12):
Um, but it.
But it also is, it has value andthe value isn't just in its GDP,
the value is in its culturalGDP, and that is the thing.
New Orleans punches so far aabove its weight in culture and
and influence, that is the thingthat is really worth protecting
(23:37):
and worth saving and investingin over and over and over.
the-restaurant-guys_3_08-05 (23:41):
you said earlier that when the chips
are down, people run back to NewOrleans.
I'm like, and in New Orleans,the chips are down a lot the
freaking time, to be honest withyou, it's like, um, it's a city
that needs a lot of saving.
But I remember at, at, atKatrina, one of the concerns was
so many people had beendisplaced who eventually did
come back, who had been livingthere and then were displaced by
the flood.
Um, that people were veryconcerned.
(24:04):
Corporate interests unrelated toNew Orleans would build back an
Epcot Center Disneyland versionof New Orleans in the French
Quarter and the Garden District.
And, um, that really didn'thappen.
I mean, the, the native NewOrleans built back the real New
Orleans.
Well, and I, I just wanted tointerject this.
You got to do something that younever would've been able to do
(24:25):
if you stayed in New York City.
Yep.
You got to purchase property,invest in the property, invest
in the neighborhood, and.
Frankly, you're gonna get someof the benefits of that
neighborhood rising up like wedid here in New Brunswick.
As, as we, our neighborhood andwe purchased our building.
we're getting some of thebenefits of our, neighborhood
(24:48):
rising.
And in New York, every bar is arenter.
Every restaurant's a renter.
There's no, it's not, it's not apossibility in New York, but
you've done something in NewOrleans where you're, you get to
be, you get to share in that alittle bit and.
People need to hear that storytoo.
'cause it's an important story.
Francis (25:02):
Well, and, and, and,
neal-bodenheimer--he-him-_1 (25:03):
and that kind of, it kind of jogs a
memory.
That I had that one of thereasons why I went to New
Orleans as well is that Iremember on the Upper East Side,
I forget the name of therestaurant, but someone had just
invested a bunch of money into arestaurant
the-restaurant-guys_3_08-05 (25:18):
Uh, if you can, you can tell this
story every two months.
Yeah.
Yeah.
neal-bodenheimer--he-him- (25:21):
Yeah.
And, and someone had investedthe money and their lease was
broken and the building wasdemolished and a highrise was
built.
And they had been open threemonths, I think.
I remember thinking like, God,like the point?
If you have that littlesecurity, you know, what are you
gonna do?
And I'm sure that, you know,knowing what I know now, I'm
(25:42):
sure that there was some sort ofpayment, to get them out.
But that's blood, sweat, tears.
That is a dream that got
Francis (25:50):
three months.
the-restaurant-guys_3_08- (25:51):
Yeah.
And, and frankly, the hardestpart about owning and operating
and running a restaurant is theplanning stage and the first
three months.
Right, right, right.
That's a, it is for me.
So except for the, you know, theeconomic downturns and things
like that, there's nothingharder than, than starting a new
project.
So that place you went downafter three months, probably
took two years to get open andthen went down after three
(26:14):
months, and maybe they got theirmoney back, but they didn't get
their two years back, you know.
neal-bodenheimer--he-him-_1 (26:18):
No, it's true.
you know, that there's alwaysthat like push and pull between
wanting to own your property andcontrol your future and then
wanting to grow,
the-restaurant-guys_3_08- (26:26):
Yeah.
neal-bodenheimer--he-him-_1_ (26:27):
so a very often.
(28:16):
hospitality, you can't do both.
Like I think it generally is acombination of leases and, you
know, if you can, you try andown whenever possible, but it
takes double, triple the moneyto do it.
the-restaurant-guys_3_08-0 (28:28):
Yep.
neal-bodenheimer--he-him- (28:29):
it's, uh, it's not always easy.
It's, it's a great thing to do.
We were very lucky to get to dothat and that really helped,
that laid the foundation for usto grow.
Own the estate, but we don't ownall of our real estate.
the-restaurant-guys_3_08-0 (28:44):
when we come back.
Francis and I are gonna talk toyou about a place that, you were
able to do this in, that wevisited in our last trip to New
Orleans called Val's, an old gasstation property That, you guys
have turned around.
Uh, we'll be right back.
You're listening to therestaurant
guys@restaurantguyspodcast.com.
Hey everybody.
Welcome back.
Our guest today is NeilBodenheimer from New Orleans.
(29:06):
And Mark, you wanted to talkabout a specific restaurant
that, yeah.
So, so you guys invested in aproperty, in an area that, that
wasn't doing so well, in an oldabandoned gas station.
Tell us about how that projectcame about.
Francis (29:19):
Well, that
neal-bodenheimer--he-hi (29:20):
project almost broke us, so it was, it
was supposed to open in April of2020, um, and it was about 25%
over budget.
the-restaurant-guys_3_08-05- (29:31):
So why didn't it open?
Yeah, some kerfuffle that I,why, why didn't it open on time?
neal-bodenheimer--he-him- (29:36):
Yeah, I don't really remember.
I try and blocked most of thattime out.
Um, well, look, mean the, theproject took five years to do,
was in, it was the, a familyowned, owns the gas station.
they were looking for the righttenant, but whoever was the
tenant had to develop the entiresite.
(29:56):
Make sure the site was clean andthere was just gas stations.
If I can ever give anybody any
the-restaurant-guys_3_08-05 (30:01):
Gas stations come whole lot of
baggage.
neal-bodenheimer--he-hi (30:03):
they're wonderful to look at.
the-restaurant-guys_3_08- (30:06):
Yeah.
neal-bodenheimer--he-him-_ (30:06):
pain in the butt
the-restaurant-guys_3_08- (30:08):
Yeah.
neal-bodenheimer--he-him- (30:08):
bring into commerce,
the-restaurant-guys_3_08- (30:10):
Yeah, you gotta clean them up.
Well, they got oil tanks in theground.
There's a whole bunch of stuffthat comes with gas.
neal-bodenheimer--he-him-_1 (30:15):
all this money that you will spend
on a gas station that no onewill ever see.
So make sure you really lovethat gas station
the-restaurant-guys_3_08- (30:22):
Yeah.
neal-bodenheimer--he-him-_ (30:22):
into it.
but in, in, in all seriousness,it was.
project that we looked at for along time, and me and my three
partners in that project, my,my, my first partner in
restaurants, Matt Conkey, who'sthe designer and a builder, uh,
had a great vision for it.
And then my other two partners,Alfredo Noguera, who is the chef
(30:43):
and does all the culinary, andthen Turk Dietrich, who does all
of the front of house incocktail.
Um, and so it's a greatpartnership.
Uh, a lot of talented peopleand.
Fortitude.
I mean, it took a long time andthere were a lot of times where
I think most partners said, thisisn't worth it.
(31:04):
Like, what are we doing?
But we ended up, you know,sometimes you end up getting
into something and the only way,uh, there's no turning back.
So you just gotta go through it.
and we were able to, to get itopen, we were able to find money
in the pandemic, um, which was,know, a miracle.
finish it, open it during thepandemic.
(31:25):
I mean, it, we, we rentedfurniture.
'cause all the rental companies,you know, we were out of money
again and all the rentalcompanies, had no business.
So we just rented furniture anddid an outdoor restaurant.
But we had the space to do itand it ended up being a
phenomenon.
We were, we just hung on longenough that.
All this outdoor space, whichwas not planned of the pandemic.
(31:49):
It was just the way we wantedthe restaurant to be.
really saved the restaurant.
the-restaurant-guys_3_08- (31:54):
Yeah.
Yeah.
neal-bodenheimer--he-him-_1_ (31:55):
in some ways almost killed it and
made it very challenging, but inthe end, I think made it very
successful in the beginning
the-restaurant-guys_3_08- (32:02):
Well, you should know that.
That how, how much we wanted toeat at your restaurant is, it
was a hundred degrees in Julyand we sat outside and, and,
and, and ate at the house.
But it was lovely.
It was, it was a, it wasactually a great experience.
Yeah.
Great time.
You guys had some fans out thereand, and, uh, kept
Francis (32:21):
you.
the-restaurant-guys_3_08-05 (32:22):
us, kept us pli with cool beverages.
Francis (32:24):
Thank you for going and.
the-restaurant-guys_3_08-05 (32:28):
No, we had the option of being
inside.
We chose to be outside.
We were gluttons for punishment.
So I wanna talk about though,you come down to New Orleans and
I want to get to Cure andopening Cure.
So obviously you've had a lot offun with Cure and you don't just
come to New Orleans and open alittle bar.
You come, you come and you opencure and like take over the
world.
You know, it's, it's nationallyknown important bar.
What did you do?
(32:49):
Why is it fun?
What made Cure special when youopened it up?
Francis (32:53):
Well
neal-bodenheimer--he-him-_ (32:54):
for, for a little background of vows
and cure, cure is one block downthe street from valves.
So we looked at the vowslocation for cure for 10 plus
years.
we were the first nighttimebusiness, um, on Ferre Street.
There was a college bar that wasdown the street that was pretty
rough.
But the first nighttime businessthat was trying to cast a pretty
(33:16):
wide net, cure was a passion.
It was not, you know, my wholegoal at Cure was to just not go
outta business.
you know, I felt like, I feltlike I had to do it, you know,
it was, it was what it was, whatI was passionate about.
I really wanted to do it.
It was, uh, I loved cocktails, Ithought.
I wanted to make a bar to do thethings that I wanted to do.
(33:36):
Um, you know, no one tells youthat the, when you open a bar
like that, the first thing youhave to give up is what you love
doing and someone has to run thebusiness.
so within six months to a year,I wasn't bartending anymore.
Mark (33:48):
You don't have to give it up.
You just have to be willing towork 19 or 20 hours a day.
Yeah.
If you want to keep doing it.
Francis (33:54):
No.
Yeah, no
neal-bodenheimer--he-h (33:55):
problem.
And then the first timesomeone's like, Hey, I'm broke.
I really need a shift.
And you're like, okay, you canhave my shift, you know?
And hey, next week, hey, I'mbroke.
I really need
the-restaurant-guys_3_08- (34:05):
Well.
Francis (34:05):
next.
Know you're not bartending.
the-restaurant-guys_3_0 (34:07):
Francis and I cured that because how we
opened stage left is hebartended one night and I mare
Eid and then I bartended theother night and he mare Eid.
And that's how, that's how itstarted here in 1992.
Well, you know what, in the end,I think one of the things that
that got us to step out frombehind the bar was.
We are behind the bar.
And if you're the bartender, youare standing.
(34:28):
Everyone else is sitting.
You're the center of attention.
This is your house.
Everyone knows you can cut themoff.
Everyone knows, maybe you canbuy them a free drink.
Everyone knows you're in charge.
It's just a cultural positionthe bartender holds and it's
very important.
Francis (34:39):
we train our bartenders what
the-restaurant-guys_3_08-0 (34:41):
what I want you to be focused on is,
you know, make sure no one'ssneaking anything out the back
door, but focus on your room,your house, and.
What we found was that whenbehind our bar, I see something
go wrong in the, the diningroom, and it's my restaurant.
I wasn't as good a bartender asI, as I would've been working
for somebody else.
And so you're constantly lookingover the, of your guests that
(35:03):
are sitting right in front ofyou.
Mm-hmm.
neal-bodenheimer--he-him-_1 (35:05):
you just realize there are all these
things happening in the roomthat you, it's your
responsibility to handle and youcan't handle them from behind
the bar.
you realize that like you cancontinue to bartend and hire a
manager who's responsible forthat, or you can do what you're
supposed to do, which is, notwork down, but work up.
the-restaurant-guys_3_08- (35:23):
Yeah.
Yeah.
neal-bodenheimer--he-hi (35:24):
that's, you know, that that's the thing
that happens over and over andover in this business is that
everybody wants to work down.
the-restaurant-guys_3_08-05- (35:33):
To be fair, there's no more fun job
in the world than being abartender.
Yeah.
It's the best.
I'm sorry, I'm the matri d ofthe restaurant.
Still I'm on the floorsometimes, uh, there's no more
fun job than being thebartender.
Francis (35:42):
I mean, look, I have a
neal-bodenheimer--he-hi (35:43):
fantasy that I would just go back to
parts me.
Now, I don't know how my bodywould feel about it, but,
the-restaurant-guys_3_08- (35:49):
Yeah.
Okay.
I'm gonna, you know, JackMcGarry from Dead Rabbit.
Is opening a place in NewJersey, an Irish pub in Jersey
City.
And he's gonna go back behindthe bar at least one day a week.
He's pledged to be behind thebar.
Okay.
At least one day a week.
Okay.
Francis (36:03):
Well,
neal-bodenheimer--he-him-_ (36:03):
Jack is the most overachieving,
hardest working dude of alltimes.
So if anybody can do it, Jack
Francis (36:10):
can do it.
the-restaurant-guys_3_08- (36:11):
Okay.
I don't know about you, Neil,uh, but I'm not, I'm guessing
you don't run a lot ofmarathons.
Mark, I know you don't run a lotof marathons, but Jack does run
marathons, so I think he's gonnabe okay.
I got behind the bar atChristmas time and, uh, I think
it was two hours.
We used to work three 12 hourshifts in a row, no problem.
We were threatened.
If I need to work a fourth, Iwork a fourth.
(36:31):
I got behind the bar atChristmas time for I think an
hour and a half, and I'm, andI'm in my office like bending
over, touching my toes, like,ah, you know, itsm Sure I
couldn't do it.
It's funny that the change, asI've gotten older is, you know,
around eight 30.
I need a little break.
the younger version of me.
(36:53):
10, 12, 14 hours, whatever itis.
I, I'll do it.
I, I'll throw down some ice teaor a Coca-Cola, an espresso in
the middle of the shift, andI'll, and I'll keep it moving.
That's, it doesn't move like itused to move.
That's, that's,
Francis (37:05):
I barely wanted
neal-bodenheimer--he-him-_1_ (37:06):
to go to the bathroom when I was
bartending behind
the-restaurant-guys_3_08- (37:08):
yeah.
Yeah, man, it was fun.
All right, so we need to changethe subject.
Or Jennifer, you need to put anundercarriage of glory days, uh,
playing under, under this, uh,reminiscent, uh, episode of the
show.
here's what I'm trying to get.
What made cure, I mean, theseare general business principles.
They're all good.
(37:28):
They're all things we believein.
But CURE stood out among a cityfull of amazing bars.
What made it the best bar in NewOrleans?
At that time to that madeeverybody notice and say, oh,
this is the bar to look at rightnow.
Francis (37:42):
Well, I mean, I
neal-bodenheimer--he-him- (37:42):
think there were a few things.
I mean, I think first of all, wewere young and dumb enough to do
stuff that was wildly unpopular
the-restaurant-guys_3_08- (37:49):
Like,
neal-bodenheimer--he-him-_ (37:51):
Like not carry brands that people
knew,
the-restaurant-guys_3_08- (37:54):
yeah,
neal-bodenheimer--he-hi (37:54):
because we wanted people out of their
comfort zone, enforce a dresscode in the early days, which
was, we do not really anymore,
the-restaurant-guys_3_08-0 (38:01):
what was the dress code?
neal-bodenheimer--he-him (38:03):
wildly unpopular.
We didn't allow shorts orbaseball caps
the-restaurant-guys_3_08-05 (38:06):
She didn't love in New Orleans.
neal-bodenheimer--he-him-_1 (38:09):
no, I wish I could have that back.
you know, yeah.
So, yeah, it was, uh, You know,we just had this idea of what we
wanted and we were prettyuncompromising to a fault.
I think.
I, I think as I get older, Irealize that, some of the
successes were because we wereuncompromising, but some of the
(38:30):
failures were too.
the-restaurant-guys_3_08-0 (38:31):
most of the people I know in this
business who are really, reallysuccessful, who are really,
really good at it, are prettyuncompromising.
With the things that they reallybelieve in.
And so maybe you made a misstepwith the, with the Shortz
policy, but I guarantee youthere are 10 other things you
did that were uncompromising,that were the difference makers
(38:52):
for you.
I guarantee it.
Francis (38:54):
Well,
neal-bodenheimer--he-him-_1 (38:55):
and certainly that was the case.
I mean, first of all, I thinkNew Orleans was very fertile
ground for what we were doing.
Like the first year of cure was.
The, the weekends were busy.
The week was like tumbleweeds
the-restaurant-guys_3_08-05- (39:08):
I.
neal-bodenheimer--he-him-_ (39:08):
and, you know, minus a few regulars
who loved cocktails, but peopledidn't know we were doing, they
didn't get it.
And, but we got it and it wasimportant to us.
I still pretty lucky that wedidn't go outta business in the
first year.
the-restaurant-guys_3_08-05 (39:22):
Try using egg whites in 1993.
See how that goes,
neal-bodenheimer--he-him-_1_0 (39:24):
I mean, look, you guys knocked
down.
The tall weeds we're standing.
We were standing on yourshoulders.
There's no doubt.
and, and look, we were havingthose same conversations too.
but New Orleans was fertileground.
We, you know, the, the thing wetalked about earlier, like this
is a city that values history,that valued things that were
culturally important.
And the and the Ramos Gen Fizzand the Vu Re and the entire
(39:47):
cannon of New Orleans cocktailswere culturally important.
We just felt disconnected.
And Cure opened, if you went tothe right bar on the right night
and got the right bartender, youcould get a good version of
those drinks.
But if you didn't, it was wildlyinconsistent.
And so what Cure was able to dowas to say, Hey, look, all of
(40:09):
our bartenders are gonna knowhow to make
the-restaurant-guys_3_08- (40:10):
These are the standards.
neal-bodenheimer--he-him-_ (40:12):
high quality bartenders and when you
walk in, we are gonna have astandard.
And, and I think that was a bigpart of it, but also.
Really the reason why we existtoday, it was not truly because
of New Orlean at the time.
It was because it was a timethat there were a lot of people
(40:33):
in from out of New Orleans.
Living in New Orleans in therebuild after Katrina Hollywood
South in New Orleans was really,running and gunning and there
were a lot.
We ended up getting a lot ofattention nationally.
I think that people that walkedin that were like, I don't know,
they don't have anything I want.
Like, I can't get a frickingJack and Coke here right now.
(40:54):
you know, this bar is not forme.
The drinks take forever.
you know, there is a thousandthings that people used to
complain about what we did, andrightfully so because it was, it
was counter to everything thatthey knew.
And it took outside peoplesaying, no, no, this place is
special.
something interesting happeninghere, that is happening
(41:15):
nationally that is happeninghere in New Orleans too.
When that happened, people camein primed in a better way.
We did not know how to tell ourstory.
We didn't know our story.
You know, now in the world of PRand so many other, I've learned
so much about how you tell thestory, and then guests can put
their experiences on top ofthat.
(41:37):
We weren't telling the story.
People were walking in cold andbeing like, what in the hell is
happening here?
the-restaurant-guys_3_08- (41:43):
Well, you had those early
Mark (41:44):
adopters though.
the-restaurant-guys_3_08- (41:45):
Those mavens, those people who, who
are the trendsetters, thosepeople who, who change people's
minds come to you and, andvalidate what you were doing.
And those are the kinds ofthings that if, if you wanna
make real changes in what'shappening in the world, you need
those people and they have to bepart of what you do.
And I just wanna, I, I wannapoint out that I'm not convinced
(42:07):
that your policy of not allowingshorts was a bad thing in the
end.
While certainly it did piss somepeople off.
And it's a little bit of likeanything that gets, you talked
about like you're walking a linethere.
I'm sure there are some of thosemavens who are like, oh, I get
it.
And okay, this is a coolcivilizing thing.
And maybe with those people youmade a positive impact.
(42:31):
And you know, I, it's, it was away to differentiate yourself
and you, you've walked away fromit since.
But I, I, I'm not convinced thatwasn't a good thing, that
Distinguished Cure early on andsaid, Hey, look, we're we're
different.
neal-bodenheimer--he-hi (42:44):
Mm-hmm.
Maybe.
And it, it's, it's, I I lookback at it and, you know,
there's no going back.
So I, I definitely see thepositives of, of the tone that
it set, but I also, I look atthe hospitality part of it and
it feels wrong to me now.
the-restaurant-guys_3_08-05- (43:02):
So you are a super successful guy,
one of the most successful barowners and restaurant owners in
the country, Uh, and we talk alot on this show about the,
things that worked out perfectlyin our history.
You.
Not all things work outperfectly.
You opened a, a, a really coolplace called Be Hook back in
2011.
And you know, looking back onit, if you opened it another
(43:24):
time, if you opened now, maybethat that bar has more success
than it had, tell us about thatplace and, and what you were
doing and'cause you were doingsome cool stuff.
There's no doubt about it.
neal-bodenheimer--he-him-_1 (43:35):
You know, I loved Belloc and I loved
what, you know, what we wereattempting to do.
And, but there's art in, there'sbusiness and often.
Restaurants and bars are thekind of the intersection and
restaurant bars, hotels are theintersection of both.
I, I think it was just wasn't agreat business, but it was a
(43:56):
really great bar.
Now that being said, it was, itwas on a hotel contract.
So we made it four and a halfyears on our five year contract,
and the hotel sold, and when thehotel sold, we had the ability
to get out.
the-restaurant-guys_3_08-0 (44:10):
tell people what the concept was and
how it worked.
'cause it's fascinating.
neal-bodenheimer--he-him-_1_ (44:13):
So Ock, we opened Bell Lock in the
winter of 2011.
and it was a bar that wasdevoted to the cobbler and it
was named after EJ Ock, who wasthe, kind of unofficial
Storyville photographer.
the-restaurant-guys_3_08-05 (44:31):
You need to tell people what a
cobbler is.
'cause most people are thinkingpeach cobbler right this
morning, or shoemaker.
neal-bodenheimer--he-him-_1_ (44:36):
So cobbler, so a cobbler was
arguably the most popularcocktail in the late 19th
century.
there are a few reasons why, butwhat made it.
Kind of groundbreaking wasnumber one, it was crushed ice
number two.
It was the first cocktail thatused the straw.
so you didn't have your face incrushed ice and bits.
(44:59):
And, but it was also to getthings past your teeth.
'cause people, didn't have asgood a teeth as we have today.
Uh, at least sometimes.
but it also used fortified wine.
But you could make a cobblerwith anything.
You could fortified wine, youcould use vermouth, you could
use, um, know, you could usespirits, you could use cordials.
(45:19):
It was just this thing that youcould do anything with.
And, you know, we were sostupid.
We were just like cobblers.
And then we had a spirit listand a wine list that was so
fricking dumb, but also awesome.
so basically a cobbler when in atime before potable water was a
thing, a cobbler was theequivalent of like a bottled
(45:42):
water or like a Sprite.
And it was, uh, mostly lowproof, always shaken, um, always
un crushed ice and garnishedwith, in a fanciful way, um,
fruit season, whatever.
I mean, the bigger, the more,the better it was.
It's a great cocktail, greatcocktail format.
(46:02):
The Sherry Cobbler beingprobably the highest form of it
and the most popular form of it.
I've had some cobbler withthings like Bon Uh, I've had
things like, I've had it withDolce Monas, like, know, you can
use anything.
And it, they're good.
Like a little bit of likegrapefruit liqueur and a co,
(46:23):
like a grapefruit.
LA cobbler is like delicious.
the-restaurant-guys_3_08- (46:26):
Well, you need to know that there are
very few bars that I missed thatI wish I hadn't missed, and Bela
is one of those bars that I,that I never got to, and I'm
like, oh, I should have gotthere.
Francis (46:41):
Oh, well,
neal-bodenheimer--he-him-_1_ (46:41):
we would've loved to have had you.
know, by the time we werefinished, and I, I've talked to
my business partner, Kirk, Opalabout it in the past, and we're
like, and Kirk, Kirk ran LOCmostly, I'm always like, Kirk,
well, you know, should we giveBell lock another shot?
Like was low proof drinking,like super on trend now, way
(47:02):
ahead of its time at the, youknow, at the time.
Like, should we give it, shouldwe give it another try and do
something?
And he is like, no.
the-restaurant-guys_3_08-05- (47:13):
He lived it.
He lived it.
neal-bodenheimer--he-him-_1_ (47:14):
He is like, I lived it.
I am good.
I never want to do it again.
the-restaurant-guys_3_ (47:18):
Alright, so.
A way for people to not miss anybars that they need to hit in
New Orleans and how to getaround in New Orleans and your
Mardi Gras and other times is Ilove your book.
pure New Orleans Drinks and Howto Mix'em.
It's way more than a cocktailbook.
It's kind of a guide to NewOrleans with a cocktail
accompaniment all along and.
I want you to talk about thatbook and, and the things, the
(47:40):
stories you choose to tell.
Mark and I, we were down in NewOrleans earlier this year, and
you know, one of the things thatyou see in the news a lot, which
touches on what you were sayingearlier about, you know, no
shorts.
I read about European citiesespecially, but other cities
that are small cities that arebeing loved to death, um, over
touristed.
You know, uh, Venice is a, acity we hear about a lot, Um,
(48:04):
but New Orleans seems to be sooriented around.
Tourism that you, that it, youcan't be loved to death, like no
matter how many tourists come.
The stuff that you talk about,about the cruise and Mardi Gras,
it's able to absorb tourists,yet keep its authentic character
in place.
That's our impression from theoutside.
(48:26):
is that true?
Francis (48:27):
Well.
You
neal-bodenheimer--he-him- (48:29):
know, the, the tagline for New Orleans
Company, which is our tourismagency, is that New Orleans is
built to host.
It is.
I mean, new Orleans is designedfor that.
Tourism is our largest industry.
that's not to say that wehaven't seen some things slide
over the years.
I mean, I remember my first job,you know, my first restaurant
(48:49):
job, not my first bar job at 19years old, uh, in the French
Quarter, and.
Having to turn people away thatwere dressed inappropriately.
But now most restaurants arelike, look, we need the
business,
the-restaurant-guys_3_08- (49:01):
Yeah.
neal-bodenheimer--he-him-_ (49:02):
over the summer.
Like, they're like, I don't carewhat you're dressed like, come
on in.
And there's
the-restaurant-guys_3_08- (49:07):
Yeah.
neal-bodenheimer--he-him-_ (49:07):
some restaurants, some, some old
guard restaurants that reallytry and walk, walk that line.
You know, like GVA still hastheir jackets.
You know, you walk in without ajacket, they're gonna give you a
jacket to wear.
And I love that.
I really do.
I think it, I think standardsmatter.
being said.
New Orleans wants to be loved.
It's what,
the-restaurant-guys_3_08- (49:26):
Yeah.
neal-bodenheimer--he-him-_ (49:27):
what we do.
We want to host people.
it's just part of our cultureand, it's, it's important me to,
to make sure that people in theworld know that, that we, we
want you to come to New Orleans.
We want you to experience it,but we just don't want you to
experience the French Quarterand the French quarter's great.
But we want you to get out andexperience the whole city.
(49:49):
it's not just one area.
Uh, and that area is built fortourism, don't get me wrong, but
if you want to peel back thelayers and see what real New
Orleans is, it's not truly inthe French Quarter.
There aren't just aren't thatmany people that live in the
French Quarter
Francis (50:05):
anymore.
the-restaurant-guys_3_08-05- (50:06):
to your point.
One of the things that I, let'stake Mardi Gras for example, and
your book has a great guide forlike what to do in Mardi Gras
and how to spend your, your,your Mardi Gras, should you
visit New Orleans at that time.
And you also talk about how youspend your Mardi Gras there.
And I guess my point about whereNew New Orleans to me seems
particularly resilient is thateven with something like the
(50:27):
Mardi Gras celebrations, they'reobviously dependent on the
tourists that come in by thethousands to enjoy it.
But it's.
It's still about the crews thathave been there for decades and
more It's its own authenticthing and it retains its
authenticity and yet it figuresout a way that can let thousands
of people come in andparticipate.
(50:48):
And, and I think that's reallyunique about New Orleans, that
it doesn't become a museum ofits former self.
Francis (50:55):
No, it's living and breathing.
It's, look, it's
neal-bodenheimer--he-him- (50:58):
ours, but we'd love to share.
and that's the thing about NewOrleans and Mardi Gras and Jazz
Fest and all the multiple thingsthat we do.
It, they're, they're ours, butwe love to share, you know,
that's what we do.
That's what hospitality is,sharing of yourself.
That's what we do, what allthree of us do every night.
(51:21):
And that's what New Orleans doesevery fricking
Francis (51:25):
second of every day.
the-restaurant-guys_3_08-05- (51:27):
we did not even touch on tales of
the cocktail, which you were onboard of directors of.
But here's what we're gonna do.
Francis and I did a live showfrom, from Tales this year with,
with Jeff Berry, this past
Francis (51:39):
Jeff.
the-restaurant-guys_3_08-05- (51:40):
we are going to.
Try and do another live showfrom Tales except in a bigger
format with a lot of differentguests.
And, we're gonna ask if you'lljoin us for that live show from
Tales while we're there next.
Francis (51:53):
I would be
neal-bodenheimer--he-h (51:53):
honored, and I think you should do
multiple live shows from tales,
the-restaurant-guys_3_08-05 (51:58):
All right.
neal-bodenheimer--he-him-_ (51:58):
just one big one.
You guys should
Francis (52:00):
be doing all week.
Let's
the-restaurant-guys_3_08 (52:01):
right.
We're in, we're in.
Let's go.
I feel like Mark just committedme to a whole lot of work that I
wasn't.
neal-bodenheimer--he-him-_1_0 (52:08):
I mean, I
the-restaurant-guys_3_08-0 (52:10):
Stay tuned.
neal-bodenheimer--he-h (52:11):
Francis, that can't be the first time
Mark has committed
the-restaurant-guys_3_08-05- (52:13):
Oh no.
neal-bodenheimer--he-him-_1 (52:14):
lot of work.
the-restaurant-guys_3_08-05- (52:14):
We do this to each other all the
time.
I would tell you usually itworks in the opposite.
Yeah, it's it's usually theopposite.
Yeah, it's true.
It's true.
Alright, so we prepare for tales2026, mark and I have just
started planning it.
You watch it here, Neil.
Uh, it's been a long timecoming.
it's been a pleasure to talk toyou.
We have admired your work for along time and it's great to have
a conversation.
(52:35):
I can't wait to meet you inperson again.
Francis (52:37):
Yeah, it's,
neal-bodenheimer--he-him-_1 (52:38):
uh, you know what an honor to be on
with you guys, and thank you somuch for what you've done to
make my career possible, becauseif it's not for you guys doing
what you do, there's no way Icould have done what I do.
the-restaurant-guys_3_08 (52:51):
That's amazing and because.
you're from New Orleans I can'tget that thought out of my head
You just keep doing that voodoothat you do so well, Neal
Bodenheimer.
Well, uh, I hope you guys haveenjoyed this half as much as I
have.
we'll be back in just a moment.
You're listening to theRestaurant guys.
You can always find outmore@restaurantguyspodcast.com.
the-restaurant-guys_3_08-0 (53:30):
Hey, everybody.
Welcome back.
That was fun.
I love Neil Bodenheimer all ofhis restaurants.
By the way, his book is amazing.
You should buy it.
We'll put it in the show notes.
It's, it's more than just arecipe book.
thought I wanted to talk to himabout that.
I didn't get to, So I wasreminded of something when We
were talking about gettingbehind the bar of your own
restaurant.
Mm-hmm.
And how when you're behind thebar.
If you own the place, it, it'svery hard to not worry about the
(53:54):
line at the bathroom or thatthere's a problem in another
section, which keeps you frombeing a really good bartender.
Or worse, you see there's aninteraction going on and maybe
you don't like the way it'sbeing handled and you wanna go
over there and you want to gothere and you want to fix it.
Yeah.
Well, and you can't fix thingswhen you're behind the bar.
So I have a, a, a tangentialexperience.
(54:16):
So there's a place called theStage House.
I had one of those once I wasLevitating above the bed.
You mean a transcendentalexperience?
Yeah, that's what I mean.
Okay.
That's, that's good.
Okay.
Archie Bunker.
You're Mr.
Malaprop today.
Um, so I was dating someoneyears ago.
I mean, this was.
1990s we'd gone on a few dates.
after the second date, she said,well, why don't, why don't you
(54:39):
bring me to your restaurant?
You have a restaurant.
Why, why don't we go to yourrestaurant?
And I said, you know what, we'lldo that.
But honestly, I.
There's a cost to going to myrestaurant.
You're not ready to come to myrestaurant with me.
And I said, you know, when I'min my restaurant, I own the
restaurant.
I can't not be the owner of therestaurant.
And so what I'd like to do is goout someplace where you and I
(55:01):
can have a conversation and allof my attention is that with you
and hopefully all of yours iswith me.
If we go to my restaurant.
I, some of my attention,depending on what happens,
somewhere between 20 and 90% ofmy attention will be someplace
else.
And she said, oh, okay.
I kind of accept that.
And I, we went to the StageHouse Inn, uh, which was owned
(55:22):
by somebody different back then.
Mm-hmm.
And we had consulted for them inthe beginning.
So, and I had worked on theirfloor a number of nights, so I
knew what was going on and whereeverything was, and where the
plumbing was and what theproblems were.
And we were sitting in thedining room on a beautiful
night.
Elvin was the maitre d.
Mm-hmm.
we're having a lovely dinner.
We were drinking champagne andeating caviar.
when I noticed three tablesover, water began to drip down
(55:43):
from the ceiling.
And I kind of waved Elvin over'cause he hadn't noticed yet.
And I said, um, Elvin.
Yeah.
Okay.
Um, the urinal in the men'sbathroom upstairs is overflowing
again.
And he said, oh my God.
And he ran and he's runningaround like maniacs.
'cause the thing is, once youstop that flood mm-hmm.
There's still stuff in theceiling and that's gonna keep
coming down for another.
15 minutes.
(56:04):
So they're moving stuff aroundin the dining room and guys are
running upstairs trying to stopthe leak.
And I was very calmly drinkingmy champagne and having my
caveat, it's better'cause you'renot the guy stopping the urinal
clock.
And what I said was, I said,this is why we went to somebody
else's restaurant.
You know why?
Because that not my fuckingproblem.
Okay.
Yeah.
Poor Jennifer has spent manyhours alone at our table when we
(56:27):
came into dinner.
Of course.
Sorry honey.
I mean, because if there's aleak, you, you gotta fix the
leak and whoever you're with issitting alone in the restaurant
cell or, or somebody comes inwho you are very friendly with.
You need to acknowledge thatperson, but, or if the mayor
comes in or if the governorcomes in, or, but it's, it's, it
was very funny because sittingat this table, I was facing leak
(56:47):
and she was facing me, but onceshe was aware of the leak, she
was a little upset by the leakwhere I was like.
Gimme some more champagne.
This is, this is fine.
This ain't my leak.
It's not leaking on me.
This ain't my leak.
And it ain't my leak Well, sothat was a little story that I
thought was tangential.
Uh, hopefully you've enjoyed thehour as much as we have.
I'm Francis Scott.
And I'm Mark Pascal.
We are the restaurant guys.
You can always find outmore@restaurantguyspodcast.com.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
My Favorite Murder is a true crime comedy podcast hosted by Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark. Each week, Karen and Georgia share compelling true crimes and hometown stories from friends and listeners. Since MFM launched in January of 2016, Karen and Georgia have shared their lifelong interest in true crime and have covered stories of infamous serial killers like the Night Stalker, mysterious cold cases, captivating cults, incredible survivor stories and important events from history like the Tulsa race massacre of 1921. My Favorite Murder is part of the Exactly Right podcast network that provides a platform for bold, creative voices to bring to life provocative, entertaining and relatable stories for audiences everywhere. The Exactly Right roster of podcasts covers a variety of topics including historic true crime, comedic interviews and news, science, pop culture and more. Podcasts on the network include Buried Bones with Kate Winkler Dawson and Paul Holes, That's Messed Up: An SVU Podcast, This Podcast Will Kill You, Bananas and more.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com