November 18, 2025 • 46 mins
The Banter
The Guys discuss cultural differences in the best way to leave a party. Expeditious or rude?
The Conversation
The Restaurant Guys speak to Procera Gin founders Alan Murungi and Guy Brennan from Kenya. Alan and Guy had a vision to create gin from fresh (not dried) juniper berries that are hand foraged at great heights in the juniper forests of Kenya. They distill locally and use hand-crafted glass bottles for their exceptional libation which is a favorite of Mark and Francis
The Inside Track
The Guys heard about Procera gin and wanted to hate it, but it was too tremendous! They got acquainted with Alan & Guy and fully appreciated their motives.
“Alan and I were in the backyard drinking a Bombay sapphire gin and tonic, and Alan looked at the bottle and said,
'This is absolute bullshit. Why do we make gin in England with African botanicals that they send to us and we drink every weekend in Kenya? Let's make a gin company.’ It was a sort of an FU to people using African stuff and selling it to us,” Guy Brennan on The Restaurant Guys Podcast 2025
Bio
Procera was founded with a vision to share the best of Africa with the world. Distilled in Nairobi, Kenya, their gins are the first to showcase African Juniper. The berries are handpicked from wild forests growing at altitudes above 2,000 metres, across many distinct regions of Kenya. The fresh juniper and other regionally-grown botanicals create a distinctive gin that is among the first distilled in Africa.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
the-restaurant-guys_2_11- (00:59):
Hello everybody and welcome.
You are listening to theRestaurant Guys.
I'm Mark Pascal and I'm herewith Francis Shot.
Together.
We own Stage left and CatherineLombardi restaurants.
In New Brunswick, New Jersey,we're here to bring you the
inside track on food, wine, andthe finer things in life.
Hello, mark.
Frankie.
So today we're gonna have alittle later in the show, the
two founders of the company thatmakes our favorite gin in the
(01:20):
world.
Procera.
We're gonna have Guy Brennan andAlan Murungi on from Nairobi.
Is it really our favorite gin inthe world?
You tell me.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It really is.
And they make three kinds.
The only difference is it's ourfirst and second favorite gin in
the world.
Yeah, that's for sure.
And uh, two of the three, twoout three ain't bad.
Two of the three we really love.
All the gins are great.
It looks very, very good.
Very.
Genes are great, very good.
But two of them are our, two ofthree best gins in the world for
(01:43):
sure.
Uh, so you know that distillingis very hard.
No, I not being a distiller, Ihave no idea.
It might be really easy.
So I sat on the, and I you do itin a bathtub, how hard can it
be?
I intend, you should see thethings I do in a bathtub.
You know, it's amazing that youdon't know what I'm gonna talk
about and how close you've cometo what we're gonna talk about.
Uh, and I'm gonna talk to theseguys about the fact that I sat,
(02:04):
I judged for the AmericanDistilling Institute.
Years ago, I spent several yearsjudging for'em and I always on
the gin panel.
Mm-hmm.
And so that is micro distillers,you know, submit their gins for
judging and, and comments.
And a lot of my comments werelike, Ew, no, that's not true.
So it's very hard.
People think so, people aregonna make whiskey, they'll
often make vodka because whiskeytakes, you know, five, seven
(02:26):
years to get your money back.
'cause you gotta age it.
Yeah.
And vodka, you finish and youknow, then send out on a truck
the next day.
Yep.
And they think gin as well.
'cause it's a white spirit.
It doesn't have to age, but ginman, those botanicals, they
taste like soap more often thannot.
Unless you really know whatyou're doing.
Well, especially when people uselavender, right?
Laves.
Oh cardamom.
(02:46):
There you go.
That's one.
That's another one.
And honestly, the cardamon, theycan make not taste like soap.
But all of the gins are heavycardamom.
Mm-hmm.
Like, what is wrong with you GinBeal.
It's not all cardamom, it'sjuniper.
Yeah, but you're right.
Lavender can make it taste likesoap.
A lot of the botanicals make ittaste like soap.
But I want to go beyond that inthe, in the spirit of making
whiskey is hard.
Here's from People Magazine.
(03:08):
Um, people Magazine.
That's one you read all thetime.
Yeah.
No, but I got this, I was anaggregator.
I got it from, so, and this is,this is not funny.
this is from Russia.
As reported by People Magazine,at least 25 people have died.
Oh my God.
After purchasing$1 Bootleg vodkain the Lenin grad region of
Russia, several more people havebeen, reported as injured.
(03:31):
The incident in question tookplace last Friday in Slan Sea
and is being described as a masspoisoning.
Nikolai B and Anova weredetained for an investigation
into the deaths methanol.
Methanol baby.
Wow.
You know what the lesson hereis?
No self distilling.
No, no.
What?
You wanna spend at least adollar 25 on your spirits.
(03:54):
You are horrible.
Yes.
Even in Russia, if it's a dollara bottle for the vodka, no.
No.
Yeah.
Don't ever try to distill athome, you know, fermentation at
home can, can.
Give you the poops, but do notdistill at home the
consequences.
Much, much higher.
you know, they used those jokesabout, and during prohibition,
people would go blind.
That's true.
(04:14):
You, you can die.
Well, don't, if you rememberthere was a beer from Brazil
that we used to carry here andeverybody really thought, oh,
that's really delicious.
It's really delicious.
Or like, so.
do you get, it's like thischocolatey, there's like almost
a banana flavor in thebackground.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Do you remember that?
Do you remember?
I do remember that, yeah.
And so we carried the beer for along time and you know, it was
(04:35):
an interesting beer.
'cause it was always a littledifferent too.
Yeah.
It was one of those like supermicrobrew before super
microbrews and it was reallydifferent.
And then we started doing someresearch on poisonous alcohols
that occurred duringfermentation.
How can you tell?
And one of the ways you can tellis they taste like bananas.
Yeah.
And I'm like.
Ah, we're not gonna carry thatbeer anymore.
(04:56):
That's it.
I don't think that's over.
That's, I don't think that wasthe source of the banana and the
jingu.
No one ever got by the way tothe, I dunno, man, to the Shingu
people, uh, on behalf of me andmy lawyers, I would very much
like it.
For you not to sue me.
We're not in any way insinuatingNo, but it's true.
That, but, but there's all sortsof stuff like, it's possible,
like with methanol, you may noteven taste it.
(05:17):
not a good, not a good story.
So that your bathtub gym commentwas uh, right on the money?
I guess it was.
I guess it was.
Alright.
So I want to talk a little bit,just for a minute or two about
something that you do that makesme absolutely crazy.
Do you have this on an Excelsheet somewhere of all the, all
the different things.
I didn't rank it, I didn't rankit with the list of things.
(05:37):
This is column A number 472things that Francis does that
make me crazy?
Okay, go ahead.
It's the top 80 lists.
Okay.
All right.
Anyway, uh, you are not asguilty of this as, as other
people who were in your family.
Oh my.
Okay.
All right.
You're attacking my wholefamily.
I love this here.
I'm time, I'm attacking yourwhole family.
I attacking, attacking yourentire tribe.
(05:57):
This, it will rumble is going tocome under, is going to get, uh,
excoriated what's coming tothem.
Yes.
Okay.
Let's go.
we had an event here Yeah.
Uh, it was an anniversary partyfor the celebrating, the
anniversary of, of Kaha Lombardirestaurant.
Yes.
And we invited some, somespecial people who were involved
in the, in the making of KahaLombardi restaurant.
Yes.
Development in early years.
(06:19):
And we had some really greatpeople come, two of my favorite
people who've ever worked here.
Um, I'll call'em out, Chris andStephanie right now.
Okay.
Okay.
Been called out, uh, came to theevent, had a great time and
about dessert time.
Yeah.
They were gone.
Oh, I didn't know where you'regoing.
(06:39):
They were just gone.
Yeah.
And we had this great party andgreat event.
And I loved seeing'em.
I loved talking to him.
Where, where Good stuff and,and.
And they were gone.
Yeah.
You, I know what they did.
You want me to say it or youwanna say?
You can say it if you want.
They're not even Irish, but theyIrish goodbye.
That's what they did.
And it's not just my family,it's, it's my whole ethnic
background in Italian.
They Irish goodbye me.
(07:00):
Yeah, man.
And to an Italian person,there's really nothing worse you
can do.
Oh, okay.
Do you know, I don't know if youknow this about Italian people.
Yeah.
The amount we love you.
Yeah.
Is correlated to how long ittakes to say goodbye.
Yeah.
And in how many different rooms?
We say goodbye to you.
(07:20):
That's why we, so we say goodbyeto you in the dining room.
Yeah.
Then we say goodbye to you inthe kitchen.
Then we say goodbye to youinside the door.
Then we say goodbye to yououtside the door.
Then we walk you to your car.
Then we say goodbye to youagain.
Then we hug you, and it mighttake 10 minutes, 20 minutes,
sometimes an hour.
Do you know why the Irishgoodbye was invented?
(07:42):
Uh,'cause people don't like you.
The fuck I Italian.
Why you say goodbye?
I say hello.
Hello?
Hello?
I don't know why you saygoodbye.
I say hello.
It's, it is how much I love you.
Hold on a second.
I haven't had such anappropriate song lyric in a long
fucking time.
I said the whole lyric makessense.
We and the Irish say hello, hugsand kisses.
(08:04):
Here's a present.
I made you a soda bread.
You're Italian.
So you throw out the soda bread.
Yeah.
And then we have, that's thehello?
And we're like.
I'm not gonna make you gothrough all that.
I'm not gonna interrupt theparty, interrupted the party
nine different times.
Say goodbye.
I slip out the back door.
Pretend like I'm going for thebathroom.
I keep fucking going.
I get in the cab, I'm gone.
You're like, and you thinkfondly on me the next day.
No, no.
I'm Italian.
I think What a jerk off.
(08:26):
You left my party without sayinggoodbye.
I Irish goodbye to your son'sgirlfriend's birthday party last
fucking night.
I did.
I did.
I did the same thing.
I ha I have one cousin.
My cousin Ronan, we used to goout in bars and he would, it's
like the extreme Irish goodbye,like we would be out drinking
the two of us.
Mm-hmm.
And he would go out for a smokeand I'd watch him get into a CAD
and go home.
(08:48):
I was like, this, that's not anIrish goodbye.
That's just an asshole.
Right.
But no, I, I Irish, I think.
It has its utility.
I don't wanna interrupt yourwhole party.
Goodbye.
Goodbye.
Oh, NOCO.
Hey that, no, goodbye Har.
Like that's my moment to showyou how much I love you.
Send me a note.
You don't get it.
Send me a note.
You don't get it.
'cause no one loves you.
(09:08):
You don't get it.
Just send me a fucking email.
France I, you know, I alwayssend a text.
Had a great time.
It was great seeing everybody.
I'm safe home.
Anyway.
Well, so let's go talk tosmarter people than we shall we.
A good idea.
By the way, that is the story ofevery single episode.
That's true.
I'm definitely having a martiniin this episode, by the way, way
(09:28):
for sure.
We'll be back in just a moment.
talking with Guy Brennan andAlan Murungi with one of the
best gins, maybe the best gin inthe world.
You can find out more aboutus@restaurantguyspodcast.com.
Francis (09:39):
Hey there everybody.
Welcome back.
Our guests today are two guyswho are shaking up the gin
world, literally.
Guy Brennan and Alan Marge aretwo of the founders of Proa Gin.
And oh my, there is somethingnew under the sun.
Proa is an African gin distilledentirely from African
botanicals, including it's thefirst gin in the world, uh, from
(10:00):
fresh or wet juniper harvestedfrom some very special.
Trees on the Kenyan Highland,and the story is just as good as
the martinis.
we'll get into the specifics,but we wanna start off by
saying, mark and I, this is ourfavorite gin in the world.
And that's, that's amazing.
Mark (10:13):
Welcome to the show, gentlemen.
Francis (10:15):
mark.
They have drinks.
I'm gonna make you some drinks.
Mark (10:16):
Terrific.
So I have to start the show bytelling you guys, I heard your
story.
You know Robert Simonson fromthe mix.
did an article on your gin a andI heard the story and you know,
the, the story of, well, our,regular gin comes from, just a
specific kind of tree in a verylocalized area.
And then we have this superpremium gin that comes from the
(10:39):
juniper of just one single tree.
And we pick the best tree everyyear and we make our gin.
I never wanted to hate anythingas much as I wanted to hate this
gin.
When, when I heard the story, Iwas like, that they are so full
of crap.
It's unbelievable.
This is just one of those, youknow, marketing somebody,
(10:59):
somebody drew up the marketingplan before they made the gin,
and then all of a sudden, afriend of mine actually uh,
stopped at a duty free shop whenhe heard us talk about the gin.
Brought a bottle to Francis'house for us to taste at a
party.
And it was revolutionary.
I mean, it, it, it changed theworld.
(11:21):
I, I had a revelation.
So, uh, tell us a little bitabout the gin, it's origins and
your ridiculous story.
Alan, tell us about the juniperforest.
So let's start with, with whereyou choose your juniper from,
and where the, the blue dot,you're kind of base gin.
Now again, base gin.
(11:41):
We need to talk about a gin thatretails for 90 or a hundred
bucks.
So when we talk about the basegin, we are still talking about
a pretty elevated, uh,experience.
So tell us about the blue dotand, and how that came about.
Francis is bringing us martinis
Alan (11:56):
I'll start from the, the origin of the forest.
Mark (11:59):
I didn't know we were getting biblical, Alan.
Alan (12:03):
Yes.
This is east Africa.
Yes.
You were getting biblical.
they're actually very beautifulforest.
They sit, um, about an houroutside of Nabi.
And so it's where we, we, I grewup where my wife grew up.
Um, so these are trees that weare used to seeing and monkeys
really the, the fruits of thetrees.
And one of the stories I alwaystell is my father-in-law when he
(12:25):
heard about the gin and he heardabout what I was doing in the US
and the fact that we are sellingin the US and other countries
around the world.
he asked making a gin out ofthese fruits which monkey and
people are drinking it.
It was like, yes, we are monkeysaren't so That's fantastic.
Exactly.
They is something that wedidn't.
Francis (12:44):
All right, I wanna interrupt.
So.
I need to interrupt you for onesecond because as we all know,
martinis and pasta are the twothings that must be eaten
immediately.
so I just made, uh, a six to oneProcera, blue dot gin martini
with Dolan dry, and we're gonnahave a toast.
I, I expressed a twist on thetop, but I also need you to
explain while we have thishandy, Um, with all of your
(13:07):
bottles of gin come with thislittle.
Jar of salt.
What the hell am I supposed todo with this?
Guy (13:13):
Well, there's a, there's a lot of things people think you
could do with it.
and uh, we've had a lot oftroubles getting some through
customs a lot of the time.
But that is actually a vanishfor your cocktails.
So that is a physical salinesolution.
So pinch of that, that is all ofthe botanicals in the same ratio
as the gin is distilled.
they're fresh botanicals,they're not spent.
And with a, uh, one third IndianOcean, Cecil from Zanzibar.
(13:37):
Two thirds the mechanicalrecipe.
A pinch of that in a martinicomes into a dirty martini on
top.
Um, slightly lifts it as Butbartenders of the steak with bit
of saline.
So this is our saline.
This is our garnish for ourcocktails.
Francis (13:50):
So this goes on top of the martini.
What do I do with it?
Guy (13:53):
Yep, absolutely.
Or if you were stirring it, youcan put it in as well as you
want.
Um, sometimes it could be on therim of red snapper it, pinch of
that image, gin Tonic, which itwas designed for.
As you will, it's a physicalsaline solution.
Francis (14:05):
It's extraordinary.
I'm sorry, Alan, I meant to, Ididn't mean to cut you off, but
I wanna enjoy the martini whilelistening to the rest of your
story.
So you're fighting the monkeysfor the juniper berries on 80
foot trees in Nairobi.
Alan (14:16):
Yeah, just outside of Nairobi in the Rift valley.
Francis (14:18):
that's a pretty good story.
Um, now there, these are 80 foottrees, and it's fresh juniper.
Alan (14:23):
Fresh juniper from the Rift valley, which sits right on
the equator.
so that means is that we getsun, 80% of the year
Mark (14:29):
So, which is one of the reasons these, these trees grow
so large.
Correct?
Alan (14:32):
It's high altitude, great sun on the equator
Guy (14:36):
This is the most southern extent of the juniper species.
So a fun factor for Juniper nerdis.
During the ice age, obviously,when, when the, the ice sheets,
uh, regressed Juniper was thething that re re conquered, uh,
recolonized a lot of, ofnorthern Europe.
There was just no plant life.
But it also went north.
Also went south.
It went south throughMediterranean.
(14:58):
Uh, also through then theArabian Gulf, it came down and,
uh, over, we're talking millionsof years, went through Saudi
Arabia.
Yemen comes across into the RiffValley on the further south.
The Kenyan Highlands and theTanzanian Mountains because it's
high there.
So it's cool, but it's on theequator.
It wouldn't have got SCO Southbecause it was too hot, but it
(15:19):
could do that because it's highand the tree could live.
It couldn't get any further.
So this is the southern mostextent of the Juniper species.
But then it also grew
Mark (15:28):
very.
So I, I, I want to go back tothe monkeys just for a second.
'cause we were talking about themonkeys and, uh, so when last we
met, we were poolside in NewOrleans.
And Phil, you had just done a, apodcast with Philip Duff.
And one of the great things Iheard from that particular
podcast was somebody asked you,you know, so do you go where the
(15:51):
monkeys go to find the goodjuniper and you just turned
around and you said.
No, the monkeys are the enemy.
I was like, wow.
It's how planted up of the apesare we going?
So not a big fan of the monkeys.
Alan (16:05):
personally, uh, not really.
but in this particular case,they, um, I think we now we've,
we've got into a good system,um, with our teams.
so we know where the best, uh,Juniper are in the forest.
And we pick up across Kenyanowadays.
Francis (16:20):
so this stuff is all foraged from the forest.
Yes.
Well, and I think what, what wewanna point is we have these
juniper trees that are 70, 80feet tall.
It's, this is a very specificmm-hmm.
A species of juniper that growsthat way.
Ju usually juniper is a lowbush.
Am I right about that?
Guy (16:37):
Yes, juniper's normally a little, you know, one or two
meter bush that grows in theMediterranean.
yeah, hand scavenge.
but these trees, they just, theyjust grew differently as they,
as they went through the southand the sun gets hotter.
And the earth gets richer.
This is the, where the bestcoffee in the world grows.
Yemen, Kenya, Ethiopia, wherered coffee's from it's a long
(16:58):
soil and, and it just became a,a gigantic tree.
Um, that's how it survived.
uh, I guess evolutionarily,
Mark (17:04):
so you talk about this being an equatorial product.
I mean, guy, that's a, that's athing, right?
That, that products around theequator tend to be big, tend to
be more Why is, I mean,obviously sunshine is part of
it.
Guy (17:16):
Yep.
Big, big time.
And, and also altitude.
I don't know if you guys havespent much time at altitude, but
when you get through the, uh,the stratosphere and you get
high, you get sunburned reallyeasily.
And the reason for that isbecause there's not all the
protective layers So the sun'spower is much stronger, higher
as well.
So it's not just that you arehot, you're also high, and.
(17:36):
Year round, 365 days ofconstant, incredible solar
radiation.
It just changes.
It changes fruits, topicalfruits, equatorial fruits
coffee, flowers, all the, allthe things that could be
equated.
It's just very different.
Wish they had high altitude.
Francis (17:51):
I think the other thing that I found really interesting,
because Juniper is always intraditional European gins.
It's a dried small berry.
It's basically a commodity.
but Alan hearing you talk abouthow they're harvested, I mean,
people climb these 80 foot treesand pick fresh juniper berries.
How did you come up with theidea to, to do that?
It had not never been donebefore.
Mark (18:12):
Right.
The berries at 30 feet weren'tgood enough.
You had to go to 80.
That's.
Alan (18:19):
Um, it was the, because you were looking for the best of
the ingredients.
So the same way as a chef, youknow, you always talk about, um,
the seasonality.
Uh, you always looking at, um,the quality of the ingredients
that, the freshness of theingredients.
Um, so we are applied the samelogic to our gin as well, so we
not just, not just any driedjuniper that's going into it, is
(18:42):
we look for the specific, bestquality that we can get.
So, for example, last year theharvest was not very good.
so with some of the items we'renot able to make, we are looking
for the very best, whichsometimes is high up.
The tree sometimes is lower.
Francis (18:56):
How do you decide what's the best?
How do your pickers as theyclimb these trees decide, you
know, what makes a juniperberry, right?
For gin?
Guy (19:05):
I mean, it's, it's purely flavor.
It's all effect.
It's how does it taste?
it's, it's simple as that.
Is it rich?
Is it savory?
Is it umami?
If it is, it's, it's, it'sgreat.
We grade the amount of 10, andthat we decide which, which are
the best to use and, and whichwe don't use.
Some, we use for our salt.
(19:25):
Some we use for bars andcocktails.
We, uh, we have different gradeson the quality.
Francis (19:30):
Well, so that leads me to a question I, I'll, I'll
stick with you guy for a second.
Where is this gin going?
Mostly because we read about itin the mix as Mark mentioned
earlier.
And it was kind of, and youknow, whatever America wants is
what you tell'em they can'thave.
So Robert wrote this thing andhe's like, this is the best gin
forever.
You're not gonna be able to findit.
(19:50):
Which of course made everybodycrazy about it.
It's brilliant.
Um, uh, but so That's one of thereasons that Mark and I were
like, ah, this is bullshit.
Right?
And then we tried the gin andwe, and we could see that it's
all there.
It's all, it's in the glass.
It's a true story and, and it'samazing.
But when you designed the gin,where did you think the market
was?
Did you think it was a homemarket?
Or did you think it was forexport and where's it turned out
(20:12):
to go?
Who?
Whose clamoring for this gin?
Guy (20:15):
Well, that, that's a really good question.
I think the whole concept hasevolved.
Alan and I, we started out inthe backyard.
The Genesis story, which isnormally bullshit.
Like, like so many things.
It's actually real in our, inour case, and those, we were
spinning in the backyarddrinking a Bombay sapphire gin
and tonic, and Alan looked atthe bottle, had all the
botanicals on the side, and sortof said, this is absolute
(20:38):
bullshit.
Why do we make gin in Englandwith African botanicals that
they send to us and we drinkevery weekend in Kenya?
Let's make a gin company.
Let's about it.
And I think that that was sortof the genesis.
It was, it was a sort of a, anFU to, people using African
staff and, and sending it to usand selling us.
I was drinking it every weekend.
(20:59):
And um, and then the sort ofconcept evolved and, we had some
constraints.
We wanted to make a beautifulAfrican product with African
glass, but we could only get 50bottles a day.
So it had to become a high endpre product.
Um, and, and, and I guess thatGenesis base just took its
course.
you only make a hundred bottlesday to this day?
Wow.
(21:19):
A hundred,
Mark (21:19):
a hundred bottles a day.
Francis (21:20):
Were there other African gins before you guys?
Guy (21:24):
There were no African gins using African juniper.
There was an amazing gin, ginmovement in South Africa.
Led by a guy called RogerJorgensen, who rest his soul was
our master distiller.
Um, he made the first fame bossgin.
So in South Africa, they haveone of the world's five, floral
kingdoms.
It's only in the Western cape.
(21:44):
Uh, so there was a big gin boomdown there, but all of it was
using European juni.
so yes, there's an African ginmovement, but there's, there's
never been, which we wannastart.
That's, well, we wanna give theAfrican sure to, we think it's
better.
We wanna help everyone consumeit and create a supply chain for
people who harvest it.
Mark (22:01):
and then you figured out you had the best juniper in the
world.
And, you know, why are webringing juniper from other
places?
I will tell you, we've ruinedyour gin.
Because it was an all Africanproduct and we put a California
lemon peel in it.
I am so sorry.
I think we're forgiven.
Francis (22:20):
I think we're, You also put it in French for moh.
But, but, but here, but here'sthe question that, can you
answer my earlier question?
Where's the gin going?
Is it mostly for export?
Is any of it being drunk inAfrica?
Well, what's happening?
Yeah.
Guy (22:31):
Sorry, that was a bit of a, a ramble.
it's
Francis (22:33):
all a ramble.
The whole show is a ramble.
Don't, worry about it.
Guy (22:36):
I should get another martini.
so the biggest market is stillKenya, believe it or not.
Um, we are so proud that thismonth, for the first time ever,
we outsold Johnny Walker in theKenya Duty Free.
Wow.
People don't keep Johnny Walker.
as a challenger brand with aridiculous price point out to
old Johny Walker, no one doesthat.
The Duty free guys are amazed.
(22:56):
They wanna take us to every dutyfree store they have in the
world.
And they're like, this doesn'thappen.
No one beats Johnny Walker.
So Kenya's our biggest marketon-premise tourism, Duty Free
um, but the US is obviouslyenough.
Is, is our focus, is each USstate has the potential in the
long run to or.
You know, 10 US states have beentrue in the long run to be as,
(23:17):
as clean just because of the,the Buying Power Act.
Mark (23:19):
I, I want to talk a little bit more about you guys and your
story and, how you got togetherand, and made this all happen.
But the first thing I need totalk about is Francis had the
idea of us having martinis at1130 this morning before.
Before our, before ourrestaurant shift tonight.
And I thought, what a terribleidea.
And now I'm thinking, what aspectacular idea this martini
(23:43):
is.
Spectacular.
and I know that love the greendot.
This is made out of the bluedot, which is more readily
available and now available inNew Jersey.
By the way, for those of you whoare wondering if you could get
it in New Jersey, uh, it's.
Absolutely amazing.
I mean, it is one of the bestmartinis I have ever had in my
life.
Period.
(24:04):
End of story.
Francis (24:05):
Well, and in fairness, he has, someone of the best gin
in the world made by the bestbartender in New Jersey.
So it's like extraordinary.
What a what a what a treat foryou, mark.
That must be, um, I do feeltreated.
Thank you.
So, so you have three levels ofgin and I think this is really
interesting to talk about.
You've got the blue drop, thered dot, and the green dot.
Again, we need to touch on thefact that, I just want to
(24:27):
reiterate, making gin from a,fresh wet juniper berry is so
different from making it from adried juniper berry.
So that's one step, that's aningredient in all the gins and
the, the green dot, which isvery rare, not yet legally
available in New Jersey.
But Mark and I have a bottlethat we bought for ourselves.
The green.is one botanical all.
(24:49):
It's one tree, one botanical,all.
Uh, Juniper.
That's another new trail.
You guys have blazed Alan, youwanna talk about that?
Alan (24:57):
Yes, I'd love to.
Very.
That's my favorite gel.
Francis (25:01):
Mine too,
Alan (25:03):
and it's my favorite Ginger.
Partly because, uh, one'sdelicious.
but also because it's purelyKenya, so I mean the boots dot
on the red.as our African gins.
Speaker 5 (25:12):
Mm-hmm.
Alan (25:13):
Um, but for me the green.is, is purely Kenya, um,
and it's Terah Deriv, uh, Terahdriven and like I said, you look
at it from the same way you makewine, you know?
So you look for the best fruit,uh, and make the best gin in a
similar sort of way.
that was the idea of it.
what amazed me about it also isthat with just using one
(25:34):
botanical, you're able to getthe balance, the creaminess, the
umami, the, just the overallbalance of the gym that just
makes it so sip, uh, and sosupple as well.
Francis (25:45):
there are two gins in the world that I think you could
drink warm in a sniffer, like a,not devy.
I mean, gin is made to bechilled.
Gin is made to be, at the veryleast, made to a martini if
(27:44):
you're rushing and having itwith caviar, at least made ice,
ice cold, and it had done on ashot.
I guess your
Mark (27:50):
other gin
Francis (27:51):
mark's gonna guess the other gin, but one of them is
definitely your green dot, whichI'm very happy to drink in a
sniffer at room temperature.
That's beautiful.
What's the other, also a colorin its name?
Yeah.
Yeah, it is Blue Gin by Hanauer.
Han Hanauer makes it, he's anODV maker and he makes a gin
that you can drink like an oDvy.
Guy (28:09):
down to that great man.
Francis (28:10):
Yeah, he's amazing.
Guy (28:12):
He's the OG of,
Francis (28:13):
yeah.
Yeah.
He's, he's, he's an old friendof ours, and when we were, we
were the first people to carryZabar ODV in the United States.
Did you know that?
I, I did know that you werehere.
Um, and we were, we're also thefirst people to carry Procera
gin in New Jersey, which ispretty amazing.
Mark (28:30):
Alright, so we're gonna talk about that pool party that
we were all at in New Orleansthis summer.
Okay.
We got there too late and thenFrancis got there like 20
minutes after me.
Francis (28:38):
And you were all wrecked.
Okay.
I gotta tell you, you were all,
Mark (28:41):
all wreck.
It was, it was quite the party,but.
When we got there, there were abunch of other friends who were
already there, and you guysobviously had been, had, had a
day already.
It was about six o'clock atnight and you guys had already
had a day.
But, uh, what was fantastic andwhat I really loved about you
was you saw how excited we wereabout the, the gin and we were
(29:03):
having the blue dot and the reddot, and the green dot wasn't
available.
But all of a sudden a tinylittle bottle of Green Dot came
out of somewhere.
And I don't know where you werehiding it, and I don't want to
know where you were hiding it,but it came, it came out and
everybody got to try Green Dot.
And, and I was so happy that,everybody in the room got to
taste it.
(29:23):
'cause our director ofoperations was there, my wife
was there, our producer, andthey got to taste this just
absolutely incredible,incredible.
Francis (29:31):
Spirit.
I do think it's the best gin inthe world.
I
Mark (29:33):
think it's the best gin in the world.
Francis (29:34):
It's the best in world, best gen I've ever
Mark (29:35):
had.
Okay.
And, and if you listen to theshow, I don't say it if I don't
mean it.
Yeah.
It's as simple as that.
Guy (29:41):
That means the world to us.
That is so kind.
And we we're, we're obviously alittle bit biased, but we, we
agree.
We love the category and, wejust wanted to help expand it
and, and change theconversation.
yeah, it's, it's reallyexciting.
You know what I love and can
Mark (29:56):
be seen as a sipping category.
I love when guy demure, right?
Because you just know that thatis so antithetical to your,
personality is to, is to belike, oh, I'm, To be much, to be
the quiet shy one is, is it'sjust, it's not you,
Francis (30:16):
me.
That it?
Alright, so, alright, so noweverybody should try these j You
can read about them online.
You can go to our website.
We'll put in some, uh, somelinks to them.
They're amazing.
They're amazing now.
Uh, blue.is you say is um, formostly martinis.
red.is a slightly more spicyversion that's currently not
available.
You like that to punch you inregular cocktails and we've
discussed what green.is.
(30:36):
I encourage people to look atthem all, but I wanna talk about
you guys.
'cause I mean, the thing aboutthe show is this is restaurant
people, you know, and food andbeverage people, so.
Alan, you came to this, you arean interesting cat.
You're a brewer, you're a chef.
You studied in the States.
Um, talk to us about yourbackground and how you came to
be who you are and how you cameto this project.
Alan (30:55):
Um, yeah.
So they, I went to university inthe UK where I got my first.
first experience in restaurants,um, and then, bars and with
alcohol.
Um, so I lived next to a Brewerbrewery.
They for about two years whenthen I got the idea of having a
(31:15):
microbrewery'cause there were nomicro breweries in Kenya.
So I went to the us, went toUnivers of California.
Uh, there's a Master Boysprogram.
I did the course for about ayear.
A little bit for like six monthsand then came back to Kenya.
So opened, um, our microbiomeafter a couple years.
Then I discovered I was, had anatural talent for cooking.
(31:37):
my training was actuallyengineering and, um, and setting
up factories and processengineering.
So that's how the, the, thefactory and the brewery set up,
uh, came into play.
naturally had a natural affinityfor, um, high-end spirits and
beer and food, and it's justgrown slowly by, slowly over
time.
guy and I first met, we, it wasat my restaurant.
(31:59):
Um, we came for dinner, uh, andwe had an argument about one of
my sources for my states.
Which up to last weekend, he wasstill insisting I was lying
about that sauce.
Okay.
You've known each other foralmost 20 years now.
So from there, I learned quite abit about wines, from Africa.
Then, um, we came up with thisidea of making the gin.
(32:22):
So, so by the time we got tomaking the gin, I had a couple
of restaurants.
We were bringing on wines.
I had a wine bar, uh, had themicrobrewery, and I was more
interested in, uh, pioneering.
in Kenya.
we didn't have dry edge beef,uh, dry steaks.
So we have Wagyu across Boranhere, those are the first to do
that.
(32:42):
So yes, so pine in terms ofbeef, the beer, gin now.
Francis (32:49):
What are the, what are the names of your restaurants?
That, where, where are we goingto go to dinner?
When we come to visit you?
Alan (32:55):
So we have two, the, the Wine Bar, Sierra Wine and Cafe,
and then the Sierra Wine Bar andGrill, which is the bigger one,
which is where I'm sittingcurrently.
Guy (33:03):
It's much better at Alan's house with his wine cellar.
I gotta be honest.
Nice.
Francis (33:07):
Well, if we, if we're invited, we'll go.
I mean we, you know, we can'tjust show up on a Tuesday at
Alan's house and ring thedoorbell.
You know,
Mark (33:13):
I'm curious, so obviously a lot of our listeners are.
familiar with Wagyu beef fromSpain or from Spain with Wagyu
beef from Japan.
Right.
So they've, they've had Miyazakiand Kobe and some of the other
beef from, from Japan here inthe United States.
We do have some purebred Wagyu,but generally our Wagyu is, when
it's mixed, is mixed with Angus.
(33:34):
Yeah.
So the, the cattle you're mixingit with in Africa is a, is a
traditional African, cattle.
Alan (33:41):
It's a Kenyan breed actually.
So there are different breeds inAfrica, and so there are some
from Northern Africa, some fromSouthern Africa.
we have, in Kenya we have theBora breed, it's, it's sort of
like a wild breed.
It's, which is actually now in,in places like in the US and
Australia.
it's wonderful because it, it'sable to handle a harsh, um,
environment up north and it alsohas very good beef.
(34:04):
but when you cross it with aEuropean breed or a Japanese
breed, like what do you, you endup with a product that is
fantastic.
Francis (34:11):
Excellent.
Yeah.
Excellent.
Well, and I, I'm, I'm assumingyou serve a lot of gin in your
restaurants.
Yeah.
Alan (34:17):
Yes, we do.
Francis (34:19):
Alright, so, so guy, tell us your story.
How, how did you come to, uh, tobe here in a partner and, part
of this whole project?
Guy (34:26):
By just talking a lot.
Basically,
Francis (34:28):
that's my strategy.
It's taken me this far.
Guy (34:31):
Yeah.
grew up in Australia.
Um, some people might be able tohear an Australian accent.
Um, moved to Africa, moved toCongo to work in development,
work in microfinance.
We used small loans topredominantly women
entrepreneurs.
and loved that, that workedreally well.
I Got to visit and travel allaround Africa.
Ended up in, uh, in Kenya.
where I met Alan.
He used, uh, trough oiled fakemushroom sauce and, um.
(34:57):
Our friendship has grown on thatlie ever since.
Francis (35:00):
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
Truffle truffle oil is a, is abaseline man.
Even we occasionally use truffleoil.
I'm sorry to say we also usereal truffles, but we use
truffle oil and so and so areyou still doing development and
banking or is junior full-timebusiness now?
What are you doing?
Guy (35:17):
So August the 13th, 2017.
I, Started running Procera fulltime.
uh, it's been a journey, eightyears, racing around the world,
talking, meeting interestingpeople.
Uh, it's just been a dream.
I just pinch myself and weakourselves every day.
Mark (35:33):
you guys alluded earlier, to the fact that, you're
struggling with making proceragin this year.
That is a bad year for thejuniper.
So, so what's going on?
fill us in with, with, wealready have a shortage.
How, how bad is it gonna get?
Tell us what's going on.
Guy (35:50):
It is, it is gonna get bad for and red dot lovers.
It's not bad for blue dotlovers.
So the shortage or the problemwas, uh, last year was an El
Nino year, which, which meant wegot a lot more rain in Africa,
which meant that the juniperberries, the very best ones
didn't dry on the trees the waywe needed.
(36:10):
That doesn't mean that theyweren't good.
At the very best of the best.
Were not brilliant and we willnot release an, if it's not
better or as good as the yearbefore the 23.
The, the green dot your drinkingis the best gin we've ever made.
At 24, we would've released,wouldn't have been as good as
that.
And so we didn't release it.
We did not make a red dot or agreen.in 24.
(36:33):
We are just about it.
Super exciting.
We found, we found two regionsthat are the best at the moment,
and we're gonna decide which isthe best of them.
Then the whole team will go tothat region and we'll use the
three best trees for green andred dolf for 25.
It'll be late season,
Mark (36:50):
So how long does it take from the time you pick the
juniper to bring a gin tomarketplace?
Obviously it's not scotch.
We don't need to wait eightyears.
how long is that process
Guy (36:59):
All our gins, we want it to be a minimum of six months.
But for red and green, itdepends.
We're, we're learning as we go.
Right.
This is why this is exciting, isit's a, it's a volatile, natural
product in the same way thatagave, when you open the bottle,
it changes immediately.
Doesn't necessarily oxidize, itloses, its volatile elements.
(37:22):
Our gin's the same, so, so weare learning as we go.
We don't know.
Six months is the absoluteminimum, but so this next entity
of red and green dot.
Where we think it'll probablyhopefully get the market just
before summer.
Francis (37:35):
So I wanna point out something about gins and vodkas
and spirits.
And one of the reasons that Markand I are always suspicious of
expensive vodka and expensivegin is something just Mark just
alluded to.
Like if you are making whiskey,if you're making a 12-year-old
whiskey, you've bought all theexpenses of distilling, you've
got the expense of a woodencask.
(37:55):
Or several wooden casks.
You've got the expense of theamount of whiskey that you lose
through respiration.
The angels share over maybe adozen years.
And so when you charge me$80 abottle for whiskey, I'm like,
all right, well that makessense.
If I, if I'm gonna investsomething and say, take a chance
on this, and you may get apayday in 12 years, you know,
there's an expense to that.
(38:16):
And one of the reasons we, weare always suspicious of gins
and vodkas is because they don'ttake 12 years, and once you
distill it, they're sort ofready.
People underestimate howcomplicated gin is to make.
And I spent a number of yearsjudging on the American
Distilling Institute, panel,which is all the amateur
distillers.
And people think you can makegin because you can make it and
turn it around quickly.
(38:36):
But boy, you need talent to makegin.
Most of it tastes like soap ifyou don't make it really well,
which is why all the bigcommercial gins, which are very
tightly controlled there, sowell, so it's a tremendous
amount of skill that goes intomaking gin.
But you guys.
I see why your gins are soexpensive.
You have people climbing 80 foottrees in the middle of Africa,
the
Mark (38:55):
life insurance alone.
Francis (38:56):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, and also, and let'srealize whenever you have, you
have an, you're foraging juniperberries from 80 foot trees in
the middle of, the highlands.
And, you know, they're going upthose trees and, and often being
like.
Nope, not good enough.
Gotta climb another tree.
And you know, that, that, that'svery intensive.
So, you know, I, I have to say,I really feel the cost of this
(39:18):
gin, uh, is justified,especially in these beautiful
bottles.
But the gin itself, um, I, Irarely am willing to spend this
much on a gin.
And I am for two reasons.
One is it's simply the best, andtwo is there's actually a lot of
cost of production that you putinto gin that most people don't.
Mark (39:33):
I, I'm gonna ask you about one last.
Cost of production, the bottles.
We have to talk about thebottles and, your philosophy
behind the, glass bottles.
Alan (39:43):
Um, the, the glass bottles, we what something that
is truly unique.
So we went to a company that itdoes, um, artisanal hand-blown
bottles and they make beautifulbottles, beautiful glass, um,
which are sold within Africa,within Kenya, and we wanted to
showcase that as well.
So because they are hand-blownhandmade.
(40:03):
beautiful artisanal craftproducts.
Um, it's, it's not, it's not acheap easy produce, something
that's produced, you know,houses of bottles at a time.
So as you're saying, you know,with, same thing with whiskey,
is there's a cost associatedwith, with having the craft and
having the care that goes intomaking each particular bottle.
And each bottle is unique.
Um, and it's not something thatcomes out of a factory.
(40:26):
the idea for that was we wantedto showcase the, the craft of
the glass bottle making, um,within Kenya and Nabi.
Francis (40:33):
Well, they're really beautiful and the whole gin
project is pretty amazing andsomething new under the sun.
And, uh, I appreciate you guyscoming on the show to, to talk
to us about your gyms.
Mark (40:41):
Yeah, this was great.
We're, excited to have your ginsin New Jersey.
Guy (40:45):
We're super grateful and looking forward to getting to,
uh, to know New Jersey a littlebit better as well as my, uh,
spend time traveling aroundthere.
And yeah, thank, thanks for,thanks for the incredible
timeboard.
Well,
Francis (40:56):
It's been great having you.
Thanks so much.
You can find out more, uh, aboutthese gins on our website where
we'll post some notes.
We'll be back in just a moment.
uh, you can find out more aboutus@restaurantguyspodcast.com.
the-restaurant-guys_2_11- (41:31):
Well, mark, do you know what I have to
say after that?
What's that?
I'd like to make anothermartini, but it's funny, I have
the gin in front of me, which Ican drink straight.
I'm gonna, I, by the way, youyelled at me when I poured extra
gin.
You didn't pour the blue dot?
You poured the green dot.
I know.
It's like$300 a bottle.
I know.
Goodness gracious.
I sit for We did a long time myfriend.
(41:52):
We, it'll be dead a long time.
You know, I think I wanna addsome historical context to the
whole gin thing that we shouldhave probably added while those
guys were on the air.
Um, you know, one of the thingsabout African gin.
You know, there's not a lotdistilled in Africa.
Mm-hmm.
And what's interesting isthere's so many interesting
fruits and flavors in Africathat.
You know, you can't makeeverything into wine, but you
can distill just abouteverything.
(42:13):
Yes.
Right.
Like you can make, like Hans Raumakes carrot OB.
Right.
Do that.
Carrots.
A lot of carrots though.
So if this starts a wholehighend distillation movement
through Africa, which it soundslike a lot of people are getting
excited, it sounds like that'swhat's happening.
I mean, just from, fromeverything I'm reading, from
everything I'm seeing, fromeverybody I'm talking to, it
sounds like that is exactlywhat's happening in Africa.
You know, we went to tales thisyear.
(42:35):
There was an African spiritsroom.
Oh yeah.
And an African spirits of that.
Well, they brought tales toAfrica this year.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So they did tales of thecocktail in Africa.
So it's happening.
Well, and the other thing aboutAfrican fruits, tropical fruits,
generally, there's a lot ofhighly perishable stuff.
Mm-hmm.
And the other thing about Africais infrastructure and shipping
is very, very difficult in a lotof places in Africa.
the African continent doesn'thave a lot of inland rivers.
(42:55):
And the railroads are limited,right?
So there's a lot of stuff that'sreally awesome there.
That's too perishable for theinfrastructure.
Topographical Francis stripes.
Yeah.
I am not geographical, but, andtopographical.
But the thing is, if you thinkabout it.
If you can distill those things,that's a way to make a high
value, stable product that youcan ship.
(43:15):
Okay, so ready for historical,Francis.
I got my professor Capon today.
So the thing about Africaoriginally was what England did
with a lot of her colonies.
Irish, uh, a lot.
Let's, what, what England didwith a lot of her colonies was
the whole idea of theexploitation part of
Colonialization was.
They would go to someplace to,to export its natural resources,
(43:39):
but they wanted theindustrialization to remain in,
in England.
Right.
And in Scotland.
Right.
So I think a bunch of our Londonlisteners just turned you off.
No, no.
They know, they know.
Um, one of the reasons Irelandremained as agricultural as it
is except for maybe Belfast and,and is because.
They discouraged theindustrialization of Ireland,
(43:59):
and that certainly happened inAfrica, and it happened in parts
of India, but more so in Africa.
So it was actually illegal todistill in Africa, so they
weren't able to distill.
So they would take thebotanicals and the, and they
would go back to London wherethe Indus, where the
distillation would happen, andthen the gin would be sent
around the world, including backto Africa.
You know, during prohibition itwas illegal to distill here.
(44:21):
We had a couple people who stilldid it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
What does that have to do withthat?
Well, I'm sure there are someAfrican people who've been
distilling all along.
Well, you know, the thing isthough, culturally there wasn't
a tradition of distillationthere.
So, but, so I guess what I'msaying though is this turns that
paradigm on its head and it was,you know, I think there was no
cultural demand to distill inAfrica either.
But the Brits in Africa weresending.
(44:43):
There, the botanicals back toEngland where the manufacturing
would happen to be sent downthere.
I just think it's very cool thatsomebody's like, Hey, wait a
minute.
Let's, let's, let's not do thatanymore.
And anyway, the gin's great andI'll just keep drinking it.
That's all I got.
Well, you also have all these,these new, you know, they're
creating techniques becausethey're, the resources are right
in front of them.
Yeah, yeah.
(45:03):
It's just Absolutely.
Well, it's cool.
It's amazing.
What, what's cool about it,honestly?
Of all of the stuff and westarted the show out this way.
Mm-hmm.
What is really interesting andcool about it is they're making
an interesting, super highquality product that the world
has never seen before.
Well, and you know, that's whereit always starts with us.
It's right, like your story isinteresting.
(45:24):
Your grandfather was aprohibition liquor runner.
I care a little bit, but I don'treally care about any of it
unless the product isextraordinary and then I care
about how you got there and thisproduct.
Uh, we both agree and that's, weboth agree.
We would've spent the whole showmaking fun of it if it wasn't
great because of the story.
A hundred percent.
Alright, so we're gonna take alittle break now.
We're gonna go find something tomake fun of on the next show,
(45:46):
uh, and you can find out moreabout us and tune into that show
I'm Francis Shop.
And I'm Mark Pascal.
We are the restaurant guys.
You can always find out moreabout
us@restaurantguyspodcast.com.
Hello everybody and welcome.
You are listening to theRestaurant Guys.
I'm Mark Pascal and I'm herewith Francis Shot.
Together.
We own Stage left and CatherineLombardi restaurants.
In New Brunswick, New Jersey,we're here to bring you the
inside track on food, wine, andthe finer things in life.
Hello, mark.
Frankie.
So today we're gonna have alittle later in the show, the
two founders of the company thatmakes our favorite gin in the
(01:20):
world.
Procera.
We're gonna have Guy Brennan andAlan Murungi on from Nairobi.
Is it really our favorite gin inthe world?
You tell me.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It really is.
And they make three kinds.
The only difference is it's ourfirst and second favorite gin in
the world.
Yeah, that's for sure.
And uh, two of the three, twoout three ain't bad.
Two of the three we really love.
All the gins are great.
It looks very, very good.
Very.
Genes are great, very good.
But two of them are our, two ofthree best gins in the world for
(01:43):
sure.
Uh, so you know that distillingis very hard.
No, I not being a distiller, Ihave no idea.
It might be really easy.
So I sat on the, and I you do itin a bathtub, how hard can it
be?
I intend, you should see thethings I do in a bathtub.
You know, it's amazing that youdon't know what I'm gonna talk
about and how close you've cometo what we're gonna talk about.
Uh, and I'm gonna talk to theseguys about the fact that I sat,
(02:04):
I judged for the AmericanDistilling Institute.
Years ago, I spent several yearsjudging for'em and I always on
the gin panel.
Mm-hmm.
And so that is micro distillers,you know, submit their gins for
judging and, and comments.
And a lot of my comments werelike, Ew, no, that's not true.
So it's very hard.
People think so, people aregonna make whiskey, they'll
often make vodka because whiskeytakes, you know, five, seven
(02:26):
years to get your money back.
'cause you gotta age it.
Yeah.
And vodka, you finish and youknow, then send out on a truck
the next day.
Yep.
And they think gin as well.
'cause it's a white spirit.
It doesn't have to age, but ginman, those botanicals, they
taste like soap more often thannot.
Unless you really know whatyou're doing.
Well, especially when people uselavender, right?
Laves.
Oh cardamom.
(02:46):
There you go.
That's one.
That's another one.
And honestly, the cardamon, theycan make not taste like soap.
But all of the gins are heavycardamom.
Mm-hmm.
Like, what is wrong with you GinBeal.
It's not all cardamom, it'sjuniper.
Yeah, but you're right.
Lavender can make it taste likesoap.
A lot of the botanicals make ittaste like soap.
But I want to go beyond that inthe, in the spirit of making
whiskey is hard.
Here's from People Magazine.
(03:08):
Um, people Magazine.
That's one you read all thetime.
Yeah.
No, but I got this, I was anaggregator.
I got it from, so, and this is,this is not funny.
this is from Russia.
As reported by People Magazine,at least 25 people have died.
Oh my God.
After purchasing$1 Bootleg vodkain the Lenin grad region of
Russia, several more people havebeen, reported as injured.
(03:31):
The incident in question tookplace last Friday in Slan Sea
and is being described as a masspoisoning.
Nikolai B and Anova weredetained for an investigation
into the deaths methanol.
Methanol baby.
Wow.
You know what the lesson hereis?
No self distilling.
No, no.
What?
You wanna spend at least adollar 25 on your spirits.
(03:54):
You are horrible.
Yes.
Even in Russia, if it's a dollara bottle for the vodka, no.
No.
Yeah.
Don't ever try to distill athome, you know, fermentation at
home can, can.
Give you the poops, but do notdistill at home the
consequences.
Much, much higher.
you know, they used those jokesabout, and during prohibition,
people would go blind.
That's true.
(04:14):
You, you can die.
Well, don't, if you rememberthere was a beer from Brazil
that we used to carry here andeverybody really thought, oh,
that's really delicious.
It's really delicious.
Or like, so.
do you get, it's like thischocolatey, there's like almost
a banana flavor in thebackground.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Do you remember that?
Do you remember?
I do remember that, yeah.
And so we carried the beer for along time and you know, it was
(04:35):
an interesting beer.
'cause it was always a littledifferent too.
Yeah.
It was one of those like supermicrobrew before super
microbrews and it was reallydifferent.
And then we started doing someresearch on poisonous alcohols
that occurred duringfermentation.
How can you tell?
And one of the ways you can tellis they taste like bananas.
Yeah.
And I'm like.
Ah, we're not gonna carry thatbeer anymore.
(04:56):
That's it.
I don't think that's over.
That's, I don't think that wasthe source of the banana and the
jingu.
No one ever got by the way tothe, I dunno, man, to the Shingu
people, uh, on behalf of me andmy lawyers, I would very much
like it.
For you not to sue me.
We're not in any way insinuatingNo, but it's true.
That, but, but there's all sortsof stuff like, it's possible,
like with methanol, you may noteven taste it.
(05:17):
not a good, not a good story.
So that your bathtub gym commentwas uh, right on the money?
I guess it was.
I guess it was.
Alright.
So I want to talk a little bit,just for a minute or two about
something that you do that makesme absolutely crazy.
Do you have this on an Excelsheet somewhere of all the, all
the different things.
I didn't rank it, I didn't rankit with the list of things.
(05:37):
This is column A number 472things that Francis does that
make me crazy?
Okay, go ahead.
It's the top 80 lists.
Okay.
All right.
Anyway, uh, you are not asguilty of this as, as other
people who were in your family.
Oh my.
Okay.
All right.
You're attacking my wholefamily.
I love this here.
I'm time, I'm attacking yourwhole family.
I attacking, attacking yourentire tribe.
(05:57):
This, it will rumble is going tocome under, is going to get, uh,
excoriated what's coming tothem.
Yes.
Okay.
Let's go.
we had an event here Yeah.
Uh, it was an anniversary partyfor the celebrating, the
anniversary of, of Kaha Lombardirestaurant.
Yes.
And we invited some, somespecial people who were involved
in the, in the making of KahaLombardi restaurant.
Yes.
Development in early years.
(06:19):
And we had some really greatpeople come, two of my favorite
people who've ever worked here.
Um, I'll call'em out, Chris andStephanie right now.
Okay.
Okay.
Been called out, uh, came to theevent, had a great time and
about dessert time.
Yeah.
They were gone.
Oh, I didn't know where you'regoing.
(06:39):
They were just gone.
Yeah.
And we had this great party andgreat event.
And I loved seeing'em.
I loved talking to him.
Where, where Good stuff and,and.
And they were gone.
Yeah.
You, I know what they did.
You want me to say it or youwanna say?
You can say it if you want.
They're not even Irish, but theyIrish goodbye.
That's what they did.
And it's not just my family,it's, it's my whole ethnic
background in Italian.
They Irish goodbye me.
(07:00):
Yeah, man.
And to an Italian person,there's really nothing worse you
can do.
Oh, okay.
Do you know, I don't know if youknow this about Italian people.
Yeah.
The amount we love you.
Yeah.
Is correlated to how long ittakes to say goodbye.
Yeah.
And in how many different rooms?
We say goodbye to you.
(07:20):
That's why we, so we say goodbyeto you in the dining room.
Yeah.
Then we say goodbye to you inthe kitchen.
Then we say goodbye to youinside the door.
Then we say goodbye to yououtside the door.
Then we walk you to your car.
Then we say goodbye to youagain.
Then we hug you, and it mighttake 10 minutes, 20 minutes,
sometimes an hour.
Do you know why the Irishgoodbye was invented?
(07:42):
Uh,'cause people don't like you.
The fuck I Italian.
Why you say goodbye?
I say hello.
Hello?
Hello?
I don't know why you saygoodbye.
I say hello.
It's, it is how much I love you.
Hold on a second.
I haven't had such anappropriate song lyric in a long
fucking time.
I said the whole lyric makessense.
We and the Irish say hello, hugsand kisses.
(08:04):
Here's a present.
I made you a soda bread.
You're Italian.
So you throw out the soda bread.
Yeah.
And then we have, that's thehello?
And we're like.
I'm not gonna make you gothrough all that.
I'm not gonna interrupt theparty, interrupted the party
nine different times.
Say goodbye.
I slip out the back door.
Pretend like I'm going for thebathroom.
I keep fucking going.
I get in the cab, I'm gone.
You're like, and you thinkfondly on me the next day.
No, no.
I'm Italian.
I think What a jerk off.
(08:26):
You left my party without sayinggoodbye.
I Irish goodbye to your son'sgirlfriend's birthday party last
fucking night.
I did.
I did.
I did the same thing.
I ha I have one cousin.
My cousin Ronan, we used to goout in bars and he would, it's
like the extreme Irish goodbye,like we would be out drinking
the two of us.
Mm-hmm.
And he would go out for a smokeand I'd watch him get into a CAD
and go home.
(08:48):
I was like, this, that's not anIrish goodbye.
That's just an asshole.
Right.
But no, I, I Irish, I think.
It has its utility.
I don't wanna interrupt yourwhole party.
Goodbye.
Goodbye.
Oh, NOCO.
Hey that, no, goodbye Har.
Like that's my moment to showyou how much I love you.
Send me a note.
You don't get it.
Send me a note.
You don't get it.
'cause no one loves you.
(09:08):
You don't get it.
Just send me a fucking email.
France I, you know, I alwayssend a text.
Had a great time.
It was great seeing everybody.
I'm safe home.
Anyway.
Well, so let's go talk tosmarter people than we shall we.
A good idea.
By the way, that is the story ofevery single episode.
That's true.
I'm definitely having a martiniin this episode, by the way, way
(09:28):
for sure.
We'll be back in just a moment.
talking with Guy Brennan andAlan Murungi with one of the
best gins, maybe the best gin inthe world.
You can find out more aboutus@restaurantguyspodcast.com.
Francis (09:39):
Hey there everybody.
Welcome back.
Our guests today are two guyswho are shaking up the gin
world, literally.
Guy Brennan and Alan Marge aretwo of the founders of Proa Gin.
And oh my, there is somethingnew under the sun.
Proa is an African gin distilledentirely from African
botanicals, including it's thefirst gin in the world, uh, from
(10:00):
fresh or wet juniper harvestedfrom some very special.
Trees on the Kenyan Highland,and the story is just as good as
the martinis.
we'll get into the specifics,but we wanna start off by
saying, mark and I, this is ourfavorite gin in the world.
And that's, that's amazing.
Mark (10:13):
Welcome to the show, gentlemen.
Francis (10:15):
mark.
They have drinks.
I'm gonna make you some drinks.
Mark (10:16):
Terrific.
So I have to start the show bytelling you guys, I heard your
story.
You know Robert Simonson fromthe mix.
did an article on your gin a andI heard the story and you know,
the, the story of, well, our,regular gin comes from, just a
specific kind of tree in a verylocalized area.
And then we have this superpremium gin that comes from the
(10:39):
juniper of just one single tree.
And we pick the best tree everyyear and we make our gin.
I never wanted to hate anythingas much as I wanted to hate this
gin.
When, when I heard the story, Iwas like, that they are so full
of crap.
It's unbelievable.
This is just one of those, youknow, marketing somebody,
(10:59):
somebody drew up the marketingplan before they made the gin,
and then all of a sudden, afriend of mine actually uh,
stopped at a duty free shop whenhe heard us talk about the gin.
Brought a bottle to Francis'house for us to taste at a
party.
And it was revolutionary.
I mean, it, it, it changed theworld.
(11:21):
I, I had a revelation.
So, uh, tell us a little bitabout the gin, it's origins and
your ridiculous story.
Alan, tell us about the juniperforest.
So let's start with, with whereyou choose your juniper from,
and where the, the blue dot,you're kind of base gin.
Now again, base gin.
(11:41):
We need to talk about a gin thatretails for 90 or a hundred
bucks.
So when we talk about the basegin, we are still talking about
a pretty elevated, uh,experience.
So tell us about the blue dotand, and how that came about.
Francis is bringing us martinis
Alan (11:56):
I'll start from the, the origin of the forest.
Mark (11:59):
I didn't know we were getting biblical, Alan.
Alan (12:03):
Yes.
This is east Africa.
Yes.
You were getting biblical.
they're actually very beautifulforest.
They sit, um, about an houroutside of Nabi.
And so it's where we, we, I grewup where my wife grew up.
Um, so these are trees that weare used to seeing and monkeys
really the, the fruits of thetrees.
And one of the stories I alwaystell is my father-in-law when he
(12:25):
heard about the gin and he heardabout what I was doing in the US
and the fact that we are sellingin the US and other countries
around the world.
he asked making a gin out ofthese fruits which monkey and
people are drinking it.
It was like, yes, we are monkeysaren't so That's fantastic.
Exactly.
They is something that wedidn't.
Francis (12:44):
All right, I wanna interrupt.
So.
I need to interrupt you for onesecond because as we all know,
martinis and pasta are the twothings that must be eaten
immediately.
so I just made, uh, a six to oneProcera, blue dot gin martini
with Dolan dry, and we're gonnahave a toast.
I, I expressed a twist on thetop, but I also need you to
explain while we have thishandy, Um, with all of your
(13:07):
bottles of gin come with thislittle.
Jar of salt.
What the hell am I supposed todo with this?
Guy (13:13):
Well, there's a, there's a lot of things people think you
could do with it.
and uh, we've had a lot oftroubles getting some through
customs a lot of the time.
But that is actually a vanishfor your cocktails.
So that is a physical salinesolution.
So pinch of that, that is all ofthe botanicals in the same ratio
as the gin is distilled.
they're fresh botanicals,they're not spent.
And with a, uh, one third IndianOcean, Cecil from Zanzibar.
(13:37):
Two thirds the mechanicalrecipe.
A pinch of that in a martinicomes into a dirty martini on
top.
Um, slightly lifts it as Butbartenders of the steak with bit
of saline.
So this is our saline.
This is our garnish for ourcocktails.
Francis (13:50):
So this goes on top of the martini.
What do I do with it?
Guy (13:53):
Yep, absolutely.
Or if you were stirring it, youcan put it in as well as you
want.
Um, sometimes it could be on therim of red snapper it, pinch of
that image, gin Tonic, which itwas designed for.
As you will, it's a physicalsaline solution.
Francis (14:05):
It's extraordinary.
I'm sorry, Alan, I meant to, Ididn't mean to cut you off, but
I wanna enjoy the martini whilelistening to the rest of your
story.
So you're fighting the monkeysfor the juniper berries on 80
foot trees in Nairobi.
Alan (14:16):
Yeah, just outside of Nairobi in the Rift valley.
Francis (14:18):
that's a pretty good story.
Um, now there, these are 80 foottrees, and it's fresh juniper.
Alan (14:23):
Fresh juniper from the Rift valley, which sits right on
the equator.
so that means is that we getsun, 80% of the year
Mark (14:29):
So, which is one of the reasons these, these trees grow
so large.
Correct?
Alan (14:32):
It's high altitude, great sun on the equator
Guy (14:36):
This is the most southern extent of the juniper species.
So a fun factor for Juniper nerdis.
During the ice age, obviously,when, when the, the ice sheets,
uh, regressed Juniper was thething that re re conquered, uh,
recolonized a lot of, ofnorthern Europe.
There was just no plant life.
But it also went north.
Also went south.
It went south throughMediterranean.
(14:58):
Uh, also through then theArabian Gulf, it came down and,
uh, over, we're talking millionsof years, went through Saudi
Arabia.
Yemen comes across into the RiffValley on the further south.
The Kenyan Highlands and theTanzanian Mountains because it's
high there.
So it's cool, but it's on theequator.
It wouldn't have got SCO Southbecause it was too hot, but it
(15:19):
could do that because it's highand the tree could live.
It couldn't get any further.
So this is the southern mostextent of the Juniper species.
But then it also grew
Mark (15:28):
very.
So I, I, I want to go back tothe monkeys just for a second.
'cause we were talking about themonkeys and, uh, so when last we
met, we were poolside in NewOrleans.
And Phil, you had just done a, apodcast with Philip Duff.
And one of the great things Iheard from that particular
podcast was somebody asked you,you know, so do you go where the
(15:51):
monkeys go to find the goodjuniper and you just turned
around and you said.
No, the monkeys are the enemy.
I was like, wow.
It's how planted up of the apesare we going?
So not a big fan of the monkeys.
Alan (16:05):
personally, uh, not really.
but in this particular case,they, um, I think we now we've,
we've got into a good system,um, with our teams.
so we know where the best, uh,Juniper are in the forest.
And we pick up across Kenyanowadays.
Francis (16:20):
so this stuff is all foraged from the forest.
Yes.
Well, and I think what, what wewanna point is we have these
juniper trees that are 70, 80feet tall.
It's, this is a very specificmm-hmm.
A species of juniper that growsthat way.
Ju usually juniper is a lowbush.
Am I right about that?
Guy (16:37):
Yes, juniper's normally a little, you know, one or two
meter bush that grows in theMediterranean.
yeah, hand scavenge.
but these trees, they just, theyjust grew differently as they,
as they went through the southand the sun gets hotter.
And the earth gets richer.
This is the, where the bestcoffee in the world grows.
Yemen, Kenya, Ethiopia, wherered coffee's from it's a long
(16:58):
soil and, and it just became a,a gigantic tree.
Um, that's how it survived.
uh, I guess evolutionarily,
Mark (17:04):
so you talk about this being an equatorial product.
I mean, guy, that's a, that's athing, right?
That, that products around theequator tend to be big, tend to
be more Why is, I mean,obviously sunshine is part of
it.
Guy (17:16):
Yep.
Big, big time.
And, and also altitude.
I don't know if you guys havespent much time at altitude, but
when you get through the, uh,the stratosphere and you get
high, you get sunburned reallyeasily.
And the reason for that isbecause there's not all the
protective layers So the sun'spower is much stronger, higher
as well.
So it's not just that you arehot, you're also high, and.
(17:36):
Year round, 365 days ofconstant, incredible solar
radiation.
It just changes.
It changes fruits, topicalfruits, equatorial fruits
coffee, flowers, all the, allthe things that could be
equated.
It's just very different.
Wish they had high altitude.
Francis (17:51):
I think the other thing that I found really interesting,
because Juniper is always intraditional European gins.
It's a dried small berry.
It's basically a commodity.
but Alan hearing you talk abouthow they're harvested, I mean,
people climb these 80 foot treesand pick fresh juniper berries.
How did you come up with theidea to, to do that?
It had not never been donebefore.
Mark (18:12):
Right.
The berries at 30 feet weren'tgood enough.
You had to go to 80.
That's.
Alan (18:19):
Um, it was the, because you were looking for the best of
the ingredients.
So the same way as a chef, youknow, you always talk about, um,
the seasonality.
Uh, you always looking at, um,the quality of the ingredients
that, the freshness of theingredients.
Um, so we are applied the samelogic to our gin as well, so we
not just, not just any driedjuniper that's going into it, is
(18:42):
we look for the specific, bestquality that we can get.
So, for example, last year theharvest was not very good.
so with some of the items we'renot able to make, we are looking
for the very best, whichsometimes is high up.
The tree sometimes is lower.
Francis (18:56):
How do you decide what's the best?
How do your pickers as theyclimb these trees decide, you
know, what makes a juniperberry, right?
For gin?
Guy (19:05):
I mean, it's, it's purely flavor.
It's all effect.
It's how does it taste?
it's, it's simple as that.
Is it rich?
Is it savory?
Is it umami?
If it is, it's, it's, it'sgreat.
We grade the amount of 10, andthat we decide which, which are
the best to use and, and whichwe don't use.
Some, we use for our salt.
(19:25):
Some we use for bars andcocktails.
We, uh, we have different gradeson the quality.
Francis (19:30):
Well, so that leads me to a question I, I'll, I'll
stick with you guy for a second.
Where is this gin going?
Mostly because we read about itin the mix as Mark mentioned
earlier.
And it was kind of, and youknow, whatever America wants is
what you tell'em they can'thave.
So Robert wrote this thing andhe's like, this is the best gin
forever.
You're not gonna be able to findit.
(19:50):
Which of course made everybodycrazy about it.
It's brilliant.
Um, uh, but so That's one of thereasons that Mark and I were
like, ah, this is bullshit.
Right?
And then we tried the gin andwe, and we could see that it's
all there.
It's all, it's in the glass.
It's a true story and, and it'samazing.
But when you designed the gin,where did you think the market
was?
Did you think it was a homemarket?
Or did you think it was forexport and where's it turned out
(20:12):
to go?
Who?
Whose clamoring for this gin?
Guy (20:15):
Well, that, that's a really good question.
I think the whole concept hasevolved.
Alan and I, we started out inthe backyard.
The Genesis story, which isnormally bullshit.
Like, like so many things.
It's actually real in our, inour case, and those, we were
spinning in the backyarddrinking a Bombay sapphire gin
and tonic, and Alan looked atthe bottle, had all the
botanicals on the side, and sortof said, this is absolute
(20:38):
bullshit.
Why do we make gin in Englandwith African botanicals that
they send to us and we drinkevery weekend in Kenya?
Let's make a gin company.
Let's about it.
And I think that that was sortof the genesis.
It was, it was a sort of a, anFU to, people using African
staff and, and sending it to usand selling us.
I was drinking it every weekend.
(20:59):
And um, and then the sort ofconcept evolved and, we had some
constraints.
We wanted to make a beautifulAfrican product with African
glass, but we could only get 50bottles a day.
So it had to become a high endpre product.
Um, and, and, and I guess thatGenesis base just took its
course.
you only make a hundred bottlesday to this day?
Wow.
(21:19):
A hundred,
Mark (21:19):
a hundred bottles a day.
Francis (21:20):
Were there other African gins before you guys?
Guy (21:24):
There were no African gins using African juniper.
There was an amazing gin, ginmovement in South Africa.
Led by a guy called RogerJorgensen, who rest his soul was
our master distiller.
Um, he made the first fame bossgin.
So in South Africa, they haveone of the world's five, floral
kingdoms.
It's only in the Western cape.
(21:44):
Uh, so there was a big gin boomdown there, but all of it was
using European juni.
so yes, there's an African ginmovement, but there's, there's
never been, which we wannastart.
That's, well, we wanna give theAfrican sure to, we think it's
better.
We wanna help everyone consumeit and create a supply chain for
people who harvest it.
Mark (22:01):
and then you figured out you had the best juniper in the
world.
And, you know, why are webringing juniper from other
places?
I will tell you, we've ruinedyour gin.
Because it was an all Africanproduct and we put a California
lemon peel in it.
I am so sorry.
I think we're forgiven.
Francis (22:20):
I think we're, You also put it in French for moh.
But, but, but here, but here'sthe question that, can you
answer my earlier question?
Where's the gin going?
Is it mostly for export?
Is any of it being drunk inAfrica?
Well, what's happening?
Yeah.
Guy (22:31):
Sorry, that was a bit of a, a ramble.
it's
Francis (22:33):
all a ramble.
The whole show is a ramble.
Don't, worry about it.
Guy (22:36):
I should get another martini.
so the biggest market is stillKenya, believe it or not.
Um, we are so proud that thismonth, for the first time ever,
we outsold Johnny Walker in theKenya Duty Free.
Wow.
People don't keep Johnny Walker.
as a challenger brand with aridiculous price point out to
old Johny Walker, no one doesthat.
The Duty free guys are amazed.
(22:56):
They wanna take us to every dutyfree store they have in the
world.
And they're like, this doesn'thappen.
No one beats Johnny Walker.
So Kenya's our biggest marketon-premise tourism, Duty Free
um, but the US is obviouslyenough.
Is, is our focus, is each USstate has the potential in the
long run to or.
You know, 10 US states have beentrue in the long run to be as,
(23:17):
as clean just because of the,the Buying Power Act.
Mark (23:19):
I, I want to talk a little bit more about you guys and your
story and, how you got togetherand, and made this all happen.
But the first thing I need totalk about is Francis had the
idea of us having martinis at1130 this morning before.
Before our, before ourrestaurant shift tonight.
And I thought, what a terribleidea.
And now I'm thinking, what aspectacular idea this martini
(23:43):
is.
Spectacular.
and I know that love the greendot.
This is made out of the bluedot, which is more readily
available and now available inNew Jersey.
By the way, for those of you whoare wondering if you could get
it in New Jersey, uh, it's.
Absolutely amazing.
I mean, it is one of the bestmartinis I have ever had in my
life.
Period.
(24:04):
End of story.
Francis (24:05):
Well, and in fairness, he has, someone of the best gin
in the world made by the bestbartender in New Jersey.
So it's like extraordinary.
What a what a what a treat foryou, mark.
That must be, um, I do feeltreated.
Thank you.
So, so you have three levels ofgin and I think this is really
interesting to talk about.
You've got the blue drop, thered dot, and the green dot.
Again, we need to touch on thefact that, I just want to
(24:27):
reiterate, making gin from a,fresh wet juniper berry is so
different from making it from adried juniper berry.
So that's one step, that's aningredient in all the gins and
the, the green dot, which isvery rare, not yet legally
available in New Jersey.
But Mark and I have a bottlethat we bought for ourselves.
The green.is one botanical all.
(24:49):
It's one tree, one botanical,all.
Uh, Juniper.
That's another new trail.
You guys have blazed Alan, youwanna talk about that?
Alan (24:57):
Yes, I'd love to.
Very.
That's my favorite gel.
Francis (25:01):
Mine too,
Alan (25:03):
and it's my favorite Ginger.
Partly because, uh, one'sdelicious.
but also because it's purelyKenya, so I mean the boots dot
on the red.as our African gins.
Speaker 5 (25:12):
Mm-hmm.
Alan (25:13):
Um, but for me the green.is, is purely Kenya, um,
and it's Terah Deriv, uh, Terahdriven and like I said, you look
at it from the same way you makewine, you know?
So you look for the best fruit,uh, and make the best gin in a
similar sort of way.
that was the idea of it.
what amazed me about it also isthat with just using one
(25:34):
botanical, you're able to getthe balance, the creaminess, the
umami, the, just the overallbalance of the gym that just
makes it so sip, uh, and sosupple as well.
Francis (25:45):
there are two gins in the world that I think you could
drink warm in a sniffer, like a,not devy.
I mean, gin is made to bechilled.
Gin is made to be, at the veryleast, made to a martini if
(27:44):
you're rushing and having itwith caviar, at least made ice,
ice cold, and it had done on ashot.
I guess your
Mark (27:50):
other gin
Francis (27:51):
mark's gonna guess the other gin, but one of them is
definitely your green dot, whichI'm very happy to drink in a
sniffer at room temperature.
That's beautiful.
What's the other, also a colorin its name?
Yeah.
Yeah, it is Blue Gin by Hanauer.
Han Hanauer makes it, he's anODV maker and he makes a gin
that you can drink like an oDvy.
Guy (28:09):
down to that great man.
Francis (28:10):
Yeah, he's amazing.
Guy (28:12):
He's the OG of,
Francis (28:13):
yeah.
Yeah.
He's, he's, he's an old friendof ours, and when we were, we
were the first people to carryZabar ODV in the United States.
Did you know that?
I, I did know that you werehere.
Um, and we were, we're also thefirst people to carry Procera
gin in New Jersey, which ispretty amazing.
Mark (28:30):
Alright, so we're gonna talk about that pool party that
we were all at in New Orleansthis summer.
Okay.
We got there too late and thenFrancis got there like 20
minutes after me.
Francis (28:38):
And you were all wrecked.
Okay.
I gotta tell you, you were all,
Mark (28:41):
all wreck.
It was, it was quite the party,but.
When we got there, there were abunch of other friends who were
already there, and you guysobviously had been, had, had a
day already.
It was about six o'clock atnight and you guys had already
had a day.
But, uh, what was fantastic andwhat I really loved about you
was you saw how excited we wereabout the, the gin and we were
(29:03):
having the blue dot and the reddot, and the green dot wasn't
available.
But all of a sudden a tinylittle bottle of Green Dot came
out of somewhere.
And I don't know where you werehiding it, and I don't want to
know where you were hiding it,but it came, it came out and
everybody got to try Green Dot.
And, and I was so happy that,everybody in the room got to
taste it.
(29:23):
'cause our director ofoperations was there, my wife
was there, our producer, andthey got to taste this just
absolutely incredible,incredible.
Francis (29:31):
Spirit.
I do think it's the best gin inthe world.
I
Mark (29:33):
think it's the best gin in the world.
Francis (29:34):
It's the best in world, best gen I've ever
Mark (29:35):
had.
Okay.
And, and if you listen to theshow, I don't say it if I don't
mean it.
Yeah.
It's as simple as that.
Guy (29:41):
That means the world to us.
That is so kind.
And we we're, we're obviously alittle bit biased, but we, we
agree.
We love the category and, wejust wanted to help expand it
and, and change theconversation.
yeah, it's, it's reallyexciting.
You know what I love and can
Mark (29:56):
be seen as a sipping category.
I love when guy demure, right?
Because you just know that thatis so antithetical to your,
personality is to, is to belike, oh, I'm, To be much, to be
the quiet shy one is, is it'sjust, it's not you,
Francis (30:16):
me.
That it?
Alright, so, alright, so noweverybody should try these j You
can read about them online.
You can go to our website.
We'll put in some, uh, somelinks to them.
They're amazing.
They're amazing now.
Uh, blue.is you say is um, formostly martinis.
red.is a slightly more spicyversion that's currently not
available.
You like that to punch you inregular cocktails and we've
discussed what green.is.
(30:36):
I encourage people to look atthem all, but I wanna talk about
you guys.
'cause I mean, the thing aboutthe show is this is restaurant
people, you know, and food andbeverage people, so.
Alan, you came to this, you arean interesting cat.
You're a brewer, you're a chef.
You studied in the States.
Um, talk to us about yourbackground and how you came to
be who you are and how you cameto this project.
Alan (30:55):
Um, yeah.
So they, I went to university inthe UK where I got my first.
first experience in restaurants,um, and then, bars and with
alcohol.
Um, so I lived next to a Brewerbrewery.
They for about two years whenthen I got the idea of having a
(31:15):
microbrewery'cause there were nomicro breweries in Kenya.
So I went to the us, went toUnivers of California.
Uh, there's a Master Boysprogram.
I did the course for about ayear.
A little bit for like six monthsand then came back to Kenya.
So opened, um, our microbiomeafter a couple years.
Then I discovered I was, had anatural talent for cooking.
(31:37):
my training was actuallyengineering and, um, and setting
up factories and processengineering.
So that's how the, the, thefactory and the brewery set up,
uh, came into play.
naturally had a natural affinityfor, um, high-end spirits and
beer and food, and it's justgrown slowly by, slowly over
time.
guy and I first met, we, it wasat my restaurant.
(31:59):
Um, we came for dinner, uh, andwe had an argument about one of
my sources for my states.
Which up to last weekend, he wasstill insisting I was lying
about that sauce.
Okay.
You've known each other foralmost 20 years now.
So from there, I learned quite abit about wines, from Africa.
Then, um, we came up with thisidea of making the gin.
(32:22):
So, so by the time we got tomaking the gin, I had a couple
of restaurants.
We were bringing on wines.
I had a wine bar, uh, had themicrobrewery, and I was more
interested in, uh, pioneering.
in Kenya.
we didn't have dry edge beef,uh, dry steaks.
So we have Wagyu across Boranhere, those are the first to do
that.
(32:42):
So yes, so pine in terms ofbeef, the beer, gin now.
Francis (32:49):
What are the, what are the names of your restaurants?
That, where, where are we goingto go to dinner?
When we come to visit you?
Alan (32:55):
So we have two, the, the Wine Bar, Sierra Wine and Cafe,
and then the Sierra Wine Bar andGrill, which is the bigger one,
which is where I'm sittingcurrently.
Guy (33:03):
It's much better at Alan's house with his wine cellar.
I gotta be honest.
Nice.
Francis (33:07):
Well, if we, if we're invited, we'll go.
I mean we, you know, we can'tjust show up on a Tuesday at
Alan's house and ring thedoorbell.
You know,
Mark (33:13):
I'm curious, so obviously a lot of our listeners are.
familiar with Wagyu beef fromSpain or from Spain with Wagyu
beef from Japan.
Right.
So they've, they've had Miyazakiand Kobe and some of the other
beef from, from Japan here inthe United States.
We do have some purebred Wagyu,but generally our Wagyu is, when
it's mixed, is mixed with Angus.
(33:34):
Yeah.
So the, the cattle you're mixingit with in Africa is a, is a
traditional African, cattle.
Alan (33:41):
It's a Kenyan breed actually.
So there are different breeds inAfrica, and so there are some
from Northern Africa, some fromSouthern Africa.
we have, in Kenya we have theBora breed, it's, it's sort of
like a wild breed.
It's, which is actually now in,in places like in the US and
Australia.
it's wonderful because it, it'sable to handle a harsh, um,
environment up north and it alsohas very good beef.
(34:04):
but when you cross it with aEuropean breed or a Japanese
breed, like what do you, you endup with a product that is
fantastic.
Francis (34:11):
Excellent.
Yeah.
Excellent.
Well, and I, I'm, I'm assumingyou serve a lot of gin in your
restaurants.
Yeah.
Alan (34:17):
Yes, we do.
Francis (34:19):
Alright, so, so guy, tell us your story.
How, how did you come to, uh, tobe here in a partner and, part
of this whole project?
Guy (34:26):
By just talking a lot.
Basically,
Francis (34:28):
that's my strategy.
It's taken me this far.
Guy (34:31):
Yeah.
grew up in Australia.
Um, some people might be able tohear an Australian accent.
Um, moved to Africa, moved toCongo to work in development,
work in microfinance.
We used small loans topredominantly women
entrepreneurs.
and loved that, that workedreally well.
I Got to visit and travel allaround Africa.
Ended up in, uh, in Kenya.
where I met Alan.
He used, uh, trough oiled fakemushroom sauce and, um.
(34:57):
Our friendship has grown on thatlie ever since.
Francis (35:00):
I love it.
I love it.
I love it.
Truffle truffle oil is a, is abaseline man.
Even we occasionally use truffleoil.
I'm sorry to say we also usereal truffles, but we use
truffle oil and so and so areyou still doing development and
banking or is junior full-timebusiness now?
What are you doing?
Guy (35:17):
So August the 13th, 2017.
I, Started running Procera fulltime.
uh, it's been a journey, eightyears, racing around the world,
talking, meeting interestingpeople.
Uh, it's just been a dream.
I just pinch myself and weakourselves every day.
Mark (35:33):
you guys alluded earlier, to the fact that, you're
struggling with making proceragin this year.
That is a bad year for thejuniper.
So, so what's going on?
fill us in with, with, wealready have a shortage.
How, how bad is it gonna get?
Tell us what's going on.
Guy (35:50):
It is, it is gonna get bad for and red dot lovers.
It's not bad for blue dotlovers.
So the shortage or the problemwas, uh, last year was an El
Nino year, which, which meant wegot a lot more rain in Africa,
which meant that the juniperberries, the very best ones
didn't dry on the trees the waywe needed.
(36:10):
That doesn't mean that theyweren't good.
At the very best of the best.
Were not brilliant and we willnot release an, if it's not
better or as good as the yearbefore the 23.
The, the green dot your drinkingis the best gin we've ever made.
At 24, we would've released,wouldn't have been as good as
that.
And so we didn't release it.
We did not make a red dot or agreen.in 24.
(36:33):
We are just about it.
Super exciting.
We found, we found two regionsthat are the best at the moment,
and we're gonna decide which isthe best of them.
Then the whole team will go tothat region and we'll use the
three best trees for green andred dolf for 25.
It'll be late season,
Mark (36:50):
So how long does it take from the time you pick the
juniper to bring a gin tomarketplace?
Obviously it's not scotch.
We don't need to wait eightyears.
how long is that process
Guy (36:59):
All our gins, we want it to be a minimum of six months.
But for red and green, itdepends.
We're, we're learning as we go.
Right.
This is why this is exciting, isit's a, it's a volatile, natural
product in the same way thatagave, when you open the bottle,
it changes immediately.
Doesn't necessarily oxidize, itloses, its volatile elements.
(37:22):
Our gin's the same, so, so weare learning as we go.
We don't know.
Six months is the absoluteminimum, but so this next entity
of red and green dot.
Where we think it'll probablyhopefully get the market just
before summer.
Francis (37:35):
So I wanna point out something about gins and vodkas
and spirits.
And one of the reasons that Markand I are always suspicious of
expensive vodka and expensivegin is something just Mark just
alluded to.
Like if you are making whiskey,if you're making a 12-year-old
whiskey, you've bought all theexpenses of distilling, you've
got the expense of a woodencask.
(37:55):
Or several wooden casks.
You've got the expense of theamount of whiskey that you lose
through respiration.
The angels share over maybe adozen years.
And so when you charge me$80 abottle for whiskey, I'm like,
all right, well that makessense.
If I, if I'm gonna investsomething and say, take a chance
on this, and you may get apayday in 12 years, you know,
there's an expense to that.
(38:16):
And one of the reasons we, weare always suspicious of gins
and vodkas is because they don'ttake 12 years, and once you
distill it, they're sort ofready.
People underestimate howcomplicated gin is to make.
And I spent a number of yearsjudging on the American
Distilling Institute, panel,which is all the amateur
distillers.
And people think you can makegin because you can make it and
turn it around quickly.
(38:36):
But boy, you need talent to makegin.
Most of it tastes like soap ifyou don't make it really well,
which is why all the bigcommercial gins, which are very
tightly controlled there, sowell, so it's a tremendous
amount of skill that goes intomaking gin.
But you guys.
I see why your gins are soexpensive.
You have people climbing 80 foottrees in the middle of Africa,
the
Mark (38:55):
life insurance alone.
Francis (38:56):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, and also, and let'srealize whenever you have, you
have an, you're foraging juniperberries from 80 foot trees in
the middle of, the highlands.
And, you know, they're going upthose trees and, and often being
like.
Nope, not good enough.
Gotta climb another tree.
And you know, that, that, that'svery intensive.
So, you know, I, I have to say,I really feel the cost of this
(39:18):
gin, uh, is justified,especially in these beautiful
bottles.
But the gin itself, um, I, Irarely am willing to spend this
much on a gin.
And I am for two reasons.
One is it's simply the best, andtwo is there's actually a lot of
cost of production that you putinto gin that most people don't.
Mark (39:33):
I, I'm gonna ask you about one last.
Cost of production, the bottles.
We have to talk about thebottles and, your philosophy
behind the, glass bottles.
Alan (39:43):
Um, the, the glass bottles, we what something that
is truly unique.
So we went to a company that itdoes, um, artisanal hand-blown
bottles and they make beautifulbottles, beautiful glass, um,
which are sold within Africa,within Kenya, and we wanted to
showcase that as well.
So because they are hand-blownhandmade.
(40:03):
beautiful artisanal craftproducts.
Um, it's, it's not, it's not acheap easy produce, something
that's produced, you know,houses of bottles at a time.
So as you're saying, you know,with, same thing with whiskey,
is there's a cost associatedwith, with having the craft and
having the care that goes intomaking each particular bottle.
And each bottle is unique.
Um, and it's not something thatcomes out of a factory.
(40:26):
the idea for that was we wantedto showcase the, the craft of
the glass bottle making, um,within Kenya and Nabi.
Francis (40:33):
Well, they're really beautiful and the whole gin
project is pretty amazing andsomething new under the sun.
And, uh, I appreciate you guyscoming on the show to, to talk
to us about your gyms.
Mark (40:41):
Yeah, this was great.
We're, excited to have your ginsin New Jersey.
Guy (40:45):
We're super grateful and looking forward to getting to,
uh, to know New Jersey a littlebit better as well as my, uh,
spend time traveling aroundthere.
And yeah, thank, thanks for,thanks for the incredible
timeboard.
Well,
Francis (40:56):
It's been great having you.
Thanks so much.
You can find out more, uh, aboutthese gins on our website where
we'll post some notes.
We'll be back in just a moment.
uh, you can find out more aboutus@restaurantguyspodcast.com.
the-restaurant-guys_2_11- (41:31):
Well, mark, do you know what I have to
say after that?
What's that?
I'd like to make anothermartini, but it's funny, I have
the gin in front of me, which Ican drink straight.
I'm gonna, I, by the way, youyelled at me when I poured extra
gin.
You didn't pour the blue dot?
You poured the green dot.
I know.
It's like$300 a bottle.
I know.
Goodness gracious.
I sit for We did a long time myfriend.
(41:52):
We, it'll be dead a long time.
You know, I think I wanna addsome historical context to the
whole gin thing that we shouldhave probably added while those
guys were on the air.
Um, you know, one of the thingsabout African gin.
You know, there's not a lotdistilled in Africa.
Mm-hmm.
And what's interesting isthere's so many interesting
fruits and flavors in Africathat.
You know, you can't makeeverything into wine, but you
can distill just abouteverything.
(42:13):
Yes.
Right.
Like you can make, like Hans Raumakes carrot OB.
Right.
Do that.
Carrots.
A lot of carrots though.
So if this starts a wholehighend distillation movement
through Africa, which it soundslike a lot of people are getting
excited, it sounds like that'swhat's happening.
I mean, just from, fromeverything I'm reading, from
everything I'm seeing, fromeverybody I'm talking to, it
sounds like that is exactlywhat's happening in Africa.
You know, we went to tales thisyear.
(42:35):
There was an African spiritsroom.
Oh yeah.
And an African spirits of that.
Well, they brought tales toAfrica this year.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So they did tales of thecocktail in Africa.
So it's happening.
Well, and the other thing aboutAfrican fruits, tropical fruits,
generally, there's a lot ofhighly perishable stuff.
Mm-hmm.
And the other thing about Africais infrastructure and shipping
is very, very difficult in a lotof places in Africa.
the African continent doesn'thave a lot of inland rivers.
(42:55):
And the railroads are limited,right?
So there's a lot of stuff that'sreally awesome there.
That's too perishable for theinfrastructure.
Topographical Francis stripes.
Yeah.
I am not geographical, but, andtopographical.
But the thing is, if you thinkabout it.
If you can distill those things,that's a way to make a high
value, stable product that youcan ship.
(43:15):
Okay, so ready for historical,Francis.
I got my professor Capon today.
So the thing about Africaoriginally was what England did
with a lot of her colonies.
Irish, uh, a lot.
Let's, what, what England didwith a lot of her colonies was
the whole idea of theexploitation part of
Colonialization was.
They would go to someplace to,to export its natural resources,
(43:39):
but they wanted theindustrialization to remain in,
in England.
Right.
And in Scotland.
Right.
So I think a bunch of our Londonlisteners just turned you off.
No, no.
They know, they know.
Um, one of the reasons Irelandremained as agricultural as it
is except for maybe Belfast and,and is because.
They discouraged theindustrialization of Ireland,
(43:59):
and that certainly happened inAfrica, and it happened in parts
of India, but more so in Africa.
So it was actually illegal todistill in Africa, so they
weren't able to distill.
So they would take thebotanicals and the, and they
would go back to London wherethe Indus, where the
distillation would happen, andthen the gin would be sent
around the world, including backto Africa.
You know, during prohibition itwas illegal to distill here.
(44:21):
We had a couple people who stilldid it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
What does that have to do withthat?
Well, I'm sure there are someAfrican people who've been
distilling all along.
Well, you know, the thing isthough, culturally there wasn't
a tradition of distillationthere.
So, but, so I guess what I'msaying though is this turns that
paradigm on its head and it was,you know, I think there was no
cultural demand to distill inAfrica either.
But the Brits in Africa weresending.
(44:43):
There, the botanicals back toEngland where the manufacturing
would happen to be sent downthere.
I just think it's very cool thatsomebody's like, Hey, wait a
minute.
Let's, let's, let's not do thatanymore.
And anyway, the gin's great andI'll just keep drinking it.
That's all I got.
Well, you also have all these,these new, you know, they're
creating techniques becausethey're, the resources are right
in front of them.
Yeah, yeah.
(45:03):
It's just Absolutely.
Well, it's cool.
It's amazing.
What, what's cool about it,honestly?
Of all of the stuff and westarted the show out this way.
Mm-hmm.
What is really interesting andcool about it is they're making
an interesting, super highquality product that the world
has never seen before.
Well, and you know, that's whereit always starts with us.
It's right, like your story isinteresting.
(45:24):
Your grandfather was aprohibition liquor runner.
I care a little bit, but I don'treally care about any of it
unless the product isextraordinary and then I care
about how you got there and thisproduct.
Uh, we both agree and that's, weboth agree.
We would've spent the whole showmaking fun of it if it wasn't
great because of the story.
A hundred percent.
Alright, so we're gonna take alittle break now.
We're gonna go find something tomake fun of on the next show,
(45:46):
uh, and you can find out moreabout us and tune into that show
I'm Francis Shop.
And I'm Mark Pascal.
We are the restaurant guys.
You can always find out moreabout
us@restaurantguyspodcast.com.
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