November 27, 2025 • 38 mins
This is a Vintage Selection from 2005
The Banter
The Guys give you the behind the scenes of the first few days of the opening of their second restaurant Catherine Lombardi and why they have to keep a fork handy.
The Conversation
The Restaurant Guys speak with Heritage Foods founder Todd Wickstrom about his company’s mission to support family farms by providing high quality products to consumers. He values genetic diversity, transparency and traceability in the food supply. The Guys declare that formula delicious!
The Inside Track
The Guys use Heritage products both personally and in the restaurant. As Todd explains, the way to save some endangered breeds of livestock is to raise them for food.
“What we're trying to really promote, what we are in the end is we are really a conservation movement. We call it conservation by consumption.,” Todd Wickstrom on The Restaurant Guys Podcast 2005
Bio
Todd Wickstrom is the co-founder of Heritage Foods USA, a pioneering force in reviving rare, pasture-raised livestock breeds and championing small family farms. A longtime advocate for sustainable agriculture, Todd helped build a national distribution network that connects chefs, home cooks, and producers dedicated to responsible, nose-to-tail eating. His leadership has shaped the modern heritage meat movement, bringing transparency, biodiversity, and farm-to-table ethics to the forefront of American food culture.
He has worked for several of the most respected Specialty Food companies in America, including his role as the Managing Partner of Zingerman’s Deli, and as the Chief Operating Officer of Rishi Tea.
Info
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The Meatrix
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Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Francis (01:30):
Good morning, mark.
Mark (01:31):
Good morning, Francis.
How are you this morning?
I'm doing better than I was justa week ago.
Francis (01:35):
Everyone should know, and this is the first place that
this has been announced publiclythat, uh, we have just opened
our second restaurant, CatherineLombardi.
We haven't emailed anyone.
We haven't told anyone.
On Monday we was it Sunday,Sunday night.
It's all blending together onSunday night.
A little blur.
We sort of snuck down thestairs.
And unlock the door a littleturn, lock, lock unlocked.
(01:58):
Let's see what comes up.
And we're doing this veryslowly.
Until, of course, tonight, nowthat we're broke this on radio,
we were doing it very slowly.
The website is still you, youCTC listeners are really in the
know because, uh, the website isstill down.
It still says coming soon.
The lights aren't on out front.
This is the
Mark (02:14):
very first announcement right here.
We're just letting
Francis (02:16):
it
Mark (02:16):
go pretty slowly.
Yeah, it was, uh, boy, that washard.
Yeah, but it's, it's funny'causewhat a, what a lot of people may
not realize is one of the thingsthat you do, uh, when you're
opening a restaurant is what wecall dry runs.
And, and Francis and I spentThursday, Friday, Saturday
doing.
Just that where, where youinvite your family in and you
invite some very close personalfriends, people who won't tell
(02:38):
anybody what you did wrong.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And
Francis (02:41):
the rule is that they, that they, they don't have to
pay.
Mm-hmm.
And it's not gonna be very goodbecause you're gonna mess it up.
You're gonna take too long.
And so we invited maybe 20people in each night.
Mm-hmm.
You know, and a lot of it, well,we did two seatings on Saturday,
so, and a lot of it was thepeople who worked on the project
with us and we just said, you.
And you know, you never knowwhen you're gonna get your co.
So any of our friends who arelistening, who we didn't call,
(03:02):
sorry.
Right.
It was
Mark (03:03):
last minute, I
Francis (03:04):
need you to sit down in four hours.
And, um, it was veryinteresting.
And, and restaurants that do dryruns, what you do is you open up
and you, you, well, you don'topen, I'm sorry.
You, you sit people down and youturn on the music and you start
cooking the food and you, andyou present the menu to people
and you bring coffee and youbring, have your staff in and
you train people.
What was sort of amusing was.
You'd have, we had two captainsfor the whole room.
(03:24):
Mm-hmm.
With five waiters behind eachcaptain.
Right.
Mark (03:26):
Little, little train, little choo choo train of
waiters going through the room.
Little
Francis (03:30):
parade would come up to your table and like, as a gang
would, conga lines we were doingfor the, the restaurant with,
but what you do afterwards isyou then sit down with, uh, the
chef and the maitre d and uh,the staff and you have a brief
meeting with them, and then theowners and the matri, the chef
sit down and you take, we, wesolicit criticism from everyone.
We share that criticism and we,and we, it's important.
(03:54):
That's why we invited thosepeople in.
And it's funny'cause Mark andi's it's, it's like the ultimate
restaurant dream.
The other reason you invitefriends and family is because
Mark and I walk around with afork.
Mm-hmm.
I'm like, excuse me, I need alittle, that doesn't look great.
Kind a little bit of that, ittaste the rush off.
Or, or people will say, it'sactually in a way it's, it's a
Ma d's um, dream.
Because you walk over to peopleand you say, and they say, and
(04:14):
you say, well.
How is that?
They're like, yeah, it's, it's alittle, it's a little salty.
A little salty.
Like, oh yeah, here, gimme someof that.
And you actually do that.
And you know, some people arelike, yeah, that is a little
salty.
And other people you think, ah,you're crazy than,
Mark (04:26):
well, that's one of the, big problems that you have
whenever you open yourself up tothis kind of criticism, uhhuh.
And I gotta tell you, having 80people.
Asking 80 people to say, okay, Iwant you to nitpick,
Speaker 2 (04:37):
right?
Mark (04:37):
I want you to look at every tiny little detail from
where the fork is placed.
How high to dim, how high didthe waiter fill your water glass
to time them from the time youorder your bottle of wine until
the time you get your bottle ofwine?
Well, ands.
The hard part is it's, it'sreally hard and they criticism.
But you know, I, I own a nicerestaurant.
(04:59):
And I'm used to most people, 99%of people coming in and saying,
Hey, that was really great.
Thanks so much for that specialevening on their way out the
door.
Yeah.
And instead I got my mom saying,uh, too much pepper on the,
she's like, you're my mom.
Francis (05:16):
You're supposed like everything I do.
No, but it's true.
And it, but it's very valuable.
But I will tell you, itsurprised me how emotionally
exhausting it really.
Mm-hmm.
It really is.
It really is.
Because for three days we had.
Hmm.
60 people a day.
Mm-hmm.
Just ab absolutely.
Ripping apart everything we did,which is exactly what we wanted,
which is what we very, veryvaluable, what we were
Mark (05:35):
begging for.
But you have to take all thatinformation.
As a restaurant owner, you haveto take all that information,
and we do this all the time, butyou do it one or two comments at
a time.
Mm-hmm.
As opposed to a hundred commentsat a time.
And you have to take all thatinformation.
You have to filter one personsaying your entrees are too big.
And the next person saying, yourentrees are too small.
(05:55):
Yeah.
One person saying, this dish isperfect.
The next person saying, thisdish is a little salty.
Yeah.
And you have to, you have tofilter.
Did my line cook mess up?
And did he salt the second onetoo much?
Well, that's why
Francis (06:07):
in dry runs you can walk around with a fork.
Exactly.
Gimme a piece of that.
But even so, you have peoplewho, when it is made the same
way, both times, someone,someone in the dining room will
say.
This is way too salty.
The other person will say, thisisn't salty enough, and you've
gotta say, Hmm.
Which, which is Right.
Right.
Mark (06:21):
So, so we, so literally we're sitting in the, in the
dining room, filtering thatinformation and, and walking
through the dining room, andrunning through the dining room
in some cases, and filteringthat information of what is
someone's personal preferenceand what is.
Something that makes the dishreally good or not
Francis (06:38):
really good.
The other thing that's veryinteresting in, for us in this
restaurant, Catherine Lombardi,which is the restaurant we just
opened in downtown New Brunswickmm-hmm.
Is our, our first restaurant isa contemporary American
restaurant.
We've had it for 13 years andwe've, you know, the ship is
sailing, you know, and we slowlyturn it right and we slowly turn
it left and, and we we're verycomfortable.
We are presenting.
Our own vision of contemporaryAmerican cuisine.
(07:00):
Obviously Chef Anthony Buco,who's the executive chef of both
restaurants, it's, it's hisvision of the food.
Mm-hmm.
It, it's the vision we've comeup with together and we present
contemporary food.
Mm-hmm.
And people, you know, like it ordon't, but some people don't
like our food and that's fine,but.
This food is different.
It's Italian American cuisine,right?
Mark (07:17):
Everybody has some experience with this food and
Francis (07:19):
everybody has a strong opinion on it.
Mm-hmm.
And you know, my mother didn'tmake it this way.
Right.
It's good, but the real way tomake it is this, and the real
way to make it is, of course,the way that your mother made
it.
But your mother didn't make itthe way Mark's mother made it.
I,
Mark (07:29):
I was, frankly, one of the most amusing things was, and
most interesting things for mewas everybody had an opinion
about the meatballs.
Oh, they're just right.
They're cooked too long.
They spent too much in time inthe sauce.
They didn't spend enough time inthe sauce.
They need more cheese.
Too much cheese.
Yeah, I know.
They need some breadcrumbs.
Meatballs are comfort food, man.
Francis (07:48):
And it's what?
It's what you remember as a kid.
And I think that one of theinteresting things for us is in
contemporary American cuisine,we combine things in new ways.
We go to the market and wepresent what's fresh.
And it's not recipe driven foodat all.
It's.
We take what's fresh in themarket.
Mm-hmm.
And when we present it in a, ina beautiful way, this is recipe
driven food.
And these recipes have a historyand people are involved and
(08:10):
interested in that history.
Mm-hmm.
And some people aren't gonnalike what we do.
Yeah.
You know, I mean, we're stilldeveloping what we do and
changing what we do, but somepeople are not gonna like it
because it doesn't conform totheir idea of what Italian
American food should be.
And those are valid ideas.
And that's gonna be a hard pillto swallow, I think for you and
me pal.
Yeah.
Mark (08:26):
Well, Francis, we have a guest for our next segment, but
maybe after that segment we'llcome back and talk about some of
this a little
Francis (08:31):
bit more.
We have Todd Wickstrom joiningus from Heritage Foods, USA, who
is a purveyor of perhaps thefinest turkeys in America.
And these turkeys are good forthe planet, but they're also the
most delicious, amazing,wonderful turkeys that you can
possibly have.
My family has one every.
Uh, Todd is not a paidadvertiser.
He's just, we're bringing'em on,and there's time for you to
(08:51):
order one of these great turkeysand have it delivered to your
home.
They're a little expensive.
They're amazing.
Todd Wickstrom from HeritageFoods, USA will be joining us in
just a moment.
You're listening to theRestaurant guys, we have with us
a guest today, a gentleman whodoes a lot of good work and, and
is a purveyor of some of thefinest foods on the planet.
Todd Wickstrom is with HeritageFood, USA.
Hello, Tom.
Todd (09:09):
Hey Mark.
How are you
Francis (09:10):
Todd, how you doing?
Good.
How's
Mark (09:12):
Francis?
Francis (09:12):
He's doing well, Francis.
How you doing?
I'm doing great.
Thanks.
Now Todd, you sell and, we'regiving you a free plug here,
man.
Uh, and I, I want to talk aboutHeritage Foods overall'cause
it's an interesting topic and Ithink some of the work you guys
are doing is very important.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
Well, thank you sir.
Francis (09:26):
But right now, in a very timely manner, uh, you have
some turkeys available forThanksgiving.
Is that not true?
Todd (09:33):
We absolutely do.
Francis (09:33):
Okay, here's the deal.
We're gonna get to talkingspecifically about turkeys a
little bit later on, but theturkeys that they have are
heritage breeds of Turkey, andyou can get to their website,
heritage USA's website by goingto our website, and you can go
and get yourself A bird like youhaven't had since 1952 and if
you weren't around in 1952, abird like you've never had
before.
So, but before we get to talkingabout birds, why don't you tell
(09:54):
us what Heritage Foods, USA isall about?
Todd (09:56):
Absolutely.
Well, let me tell you reallybriefly what Heritage Foods USA,
uh, is and does.
Basically, we're food brokersfor small family farmers, and we
are trying very.
Um, intensely to promote geneticdiversity, uh, and increase
revenues for small familyfarmers.
So what we do is, is we, itstarted with the turkeys several
(10:18):
years ago when we were reallyjust sort of working as the
marketing arm for slow food USA.
Mm-hmm.
And the turkeys were sosuccessful the first few years
that we had many farmers thatwould come to us and say, well,
look, if you can sell turkeys,don't you think you can sell
pigs and sheep?
And, you know, the whole gamut.
And so what we're really tryingto do is to, to protect a lot of
(10:40):
these breeds that are really,you know, rare and endangered
things that were, were really indanger of losing on a.
On a daily basis, and, and themore we've gotten into it, the
more we have come to realizethat what's mostly rare and
endangered is the small familyfarmer.
So, so what we're trying toreally do is to, to give these
small family farmers the abilityto get their products to markets
(11:02):
on a national level.
I mean, you guys are stage left,buy a lot of product from us
right now.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
Mm-hmm.
Todd (11:07):
From farmers in the middle of Kansas and Missouri.
And there would be no other way,no other avenue for them to be
able to contact you.
Francis (11:14):
You know, the interesting thing about it is
what people may not realize is,yeah, okay.
If you go to the.
To try and stay on the farm ortry to establish a small family
farm and run things in atraditional way.
Well, you have a problem there.
It used to be that the, youknow, the agribusiness, the,
the, the large corporations, youcould sell to the local
supermarket or you could sell toa supermarket chain.
Right?
The supermarket chain does notwanna deal with a small farmer,
(11:35):
just simply doesn't.
I've got tomatoes that you canhave, uh, through the month of
August and into the first weekof September, the, the, even,
even when those tomatoes areavailable, the supermarket chain
now says, listen, I've got a 12month deal with, you know, this
huge agribusiness firm thatgives me California and
Guatemala and tomatoes.
Can't maybe bothered, maybe aSouth
Mark (11:54):
American company.
Francis (11:55):
I can't be bothered.
You know, changing around whatcomes around locally.
And so what happens
Todd (12:00):
regardless of the fact that it doesn't taste like a
tomato.
Right, exactly.
Francis (12:03):
Exactly.
And that's why we say in thisshow all the time, you know,
good taste is revolutionary.
Good taste is important in somany ways.
You can do well, you can do wellby doing good and having good
taste.
Exactly.
But, but what you guys do that'sso important and, and we've met
with a bunch of organic farmershere in New Jersey on a number
of occasions, and we've met withother restaurateurs who were
interested in dealing with thefamily farm.
(12:24):
But it's very hard to get allthis stuff because the, the, if
you have a family farm, the onlyjob that's harder than being,
being a restaurateur is being afarmer.
Mark (12:32):
Mm-hmm.
But I don't think that, that yourealize even the, the degree of
the service that, that you givewhen you connect the two of us,
because even in New Jersey, we,Francis and I, it's a lot of
work to connect directly to thefarmer and, and there needs to
be a middleman, there needs tobe someone who can funnel those,
those products.
(12:53):
To the restaurants and, and makeit happen because the farmers
need to be focused on theirfarms and the restaurants need
to be focused in theirrestaurants.
Francis (13:00):
Right.
Exactly.
On the high end.
On the super high end, likestage left.
Okay.
Stage left is, is an expensive,super high end restaurant.
We dedicate hours and hours aweek to sourcing ingredients.
Okay.
And that's what makes us amongthe best.
But most restaurants don't havesomeone.
Mm-hmm.
You know, they need to just beable to pick up the phone and
place an order and the farm.
The farmer has to be on thefarm.
(13:20):
He can't be driving around fromrestaurant to restaurant,
Mark (13:22):
delivering, delivering.
He's got work to do, deliverpigs and deciding who gets
Francis (13:26):
what portion of what pig.
How do you make the connectionbetween, between the, the
consumer and the farmer?
How do you do that?
Todd (13:32):
Well, I think, you know, for me, I, I actually spent the
first 20 years of my career inthe restaurant business, and so
I understand, you know,intimately what.
The chefs and the restaurateursare looking for, and I also knew
that it was very difficult, ifnot impossible, to find that
product.
Like you said.
I mean, there's very fewrestaurants that can dedicate,
you know, an entire salarieddeposition to a forger,
Speaker 2 (13:53):
you know?
Mm-hmm.
Right,
Todd (13:54):
right.
Go out there and try to attractdown all these products, and so.
I think that for us, what reallystarted to to click was that,
you know, what we were doing,you know, it was industrial
agriculture as things havereally changed over the last
several decades, is that, youknow, we have bred out flavor
from all of the products.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
Mm-hmm.
Todd (14:13):
I mean, you know, go to the market and buy a honeydew
melon.
I mean, that has no.
Flavor whatsoever.
Mark (14:18):
Well, by, by breeding out the diversity, that's exactly
what you do Every, we want everymelon to taste the same, even if
the same is bad.
Francis (14:25):
And it's all, and it's all a hook, everybody.
It's marketing.
Because if you don't have goodtaste, and if you don't say that
melons not very good, then thesupermarket is free to buy it
from wherever it's cheapest andget it 12 months a year.
Mm-hmm.
Whereas if you say, you knowwhat, if the tomatoes are aren't
good, I'm not buying them.
Well, then they have to adjustto your taste.
And doing that usually meansthey have to buy locally, which
usually keeps one of yourneighbors on a farm within a
(14:47):
couple of towns, or at leastwithin a county away.
And that usually is better forthe planet because if you don't
have to fly something fromGuatemala to New York, it uses
less fossil fuels in gettinghere.
And it's all about justdemanding that the tomato tastes
like a tomato and tastes good.
And that's what Todd Wickstromhelps us to do is to make those
connections.
Because sometimes we have afamily farm in our own backyard,
(15:07):
but we don't know how to get theproduce.
And Todd really helps us.
Mark (15:09):
we're talking about how to get your delicious heritage
breed Turkey
Francis (15:14):
Um, and, and we're pushing this because I, I
switched over to HeritageTurkeys for my own family, and
we serve them in stage left.
Mm-hmm.
They're not inexpensive people.
About three,
Mark (15:21):
about three years ago, we switched, maybe four years ago
we switched.
When did, when did you startthis program, Todd?
Todd (15:25):
About then about four years ago.
Mm-hmm.
The fourth.
Thanksgiving
Mark (15:28):
let's talk about the heritage breeds of Turkey.
Let's talk about, about how theycame about.
Todd (15:32):
Okay.
Mark (15:32):
Uh, now Todd, what is the Turkey that we see in our
supermarket every week?
Todd (15:37):
Uh, the, the, you know, 99% of all the turkeys that are
out there right now are thebroad breasted white Turkey.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, and these are turkeys thatreally, uh, were, were sort of
almost created by the industrialagriculture.
Would you.
Francis (15:50):
Would you think that Franken Turkey would be an
exaggeration?
Todd (15:54):
Yeah, I think, you know, it's interesting, I think that
that, that the industrialturkeys, what you see in your
grocery store, uh, is probably areally good example of, of, you
know, where people don't want toknow where their food,
Mark (16:05):
if, if you look close at that Turkey, you can actually
see the bolts on it.
Snack
Todd (16:10):
exactly.
The scars from the stitches.
Francis (16:14):
Let's let, let, let's just ask a few questions.
Let's talk about, let's, let'sgive Butterball its dew here for
a moment.
Um, so Todd, you know, you knowa lot about turkeys, right?
Yes, sir.
Okay.
Broad breasted white.
Um, how can it fly?
Nope.
Cannot fly.
Okay.
Can it, um, can it sexuallyreproduce?
Can it procreate?
Todd (16:30):
It can't have sex.
Francis (16:32):
Oh, poor Turkey.
That's why it's so, exactly.
So I'd be mad loaded.
Todd (16:36):
Yeah.
It can't fly.
It can't reproduce.
You know, their beaks areclipped the top beak that cuts,
uh, half the top off of thebeak.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
Why?
Why
Todd (16:45):
actually bottom.
One acts like a shovel.
I mean, if you have a littlebeak, all you can do is sort of
peck and you eat very slowly.
And so they cut off the topbeak, uh, to make it more like a
shovel.
And so they can eat a lot morefood a lot faster.
Francis (16:58):
Now, can these do these, these, these broad
breasted whites, they don't havesex.
I guess they just walk aroundall, all the day on the farm.
Todd (17:04):
Uh, well, I think, you know, walking might be an
exaggeration.
Mm-hmm.
I mean, most of these things, Imean, they have to be pumped up
full of, you know, all sorts of,uh, antibiotics just so that
they don't get sick insidethere.
You know, I mean, they live inhuge warehouses that barely ever
see the light of day.
So,
Francis (17:21):
so you're talking about an animal that if it weren't
pumped up full of hormones andantibiotics and, and selectively
bred and had its be cut off,they would, would fall over and
die and cease to exist.
Todd (17:30):
Exactly.
They could not survive outdoors.
Francis (17:32):
Um.
Let me get this right.
Animal rights activists aregoing after the fo gra
producers.
I don't, I don't get thateverybody, exactly.
Okay.
This
Todd (17:41):
is more, maybe more gentle where you lovingly caress it
and, you know, help feed it abig whatever pals of really good
(19:33):
food.
Francis (19:34):
You know, it's funny, we're so far divorced from the
means of production.
Mm-hmm.
That, you know, and look, I, Ibelieve in raising animals for
food.
I am not a vegetarian.
I like to eat meat.
Yep.
And, and I'm not a bleedingheart liberal.
Yep.
Todd (19:46):
you know, we don't spend much time at all talking about
the way that industrialagriculture raises it.
I think there's enough sort offearmongering in this country
already.
So instead of trying to reallyjust focus on all the negatives,
which are, you know, there's,it's infinite.
The things that you could talkabout, about how crazy our food
system has become.
What we really choose to do isto focus on what's so great
about supporting these farmers.
(20:07):
How much good for you differentit really tastes, you know,
Mark (20:09):
we, we don't mind scaring our listeners a little bit.
Todd (20:12):
No, I think a little fear is good.
Francis (20:14):
Well, and especially when we're presenting them with
an alternative like a HeritageFoods USA Turkey.
We're gonna talk more aboutTurkeys and Thanksgiving in just
a moment.
Today we have with us fromHeritage Foods, USA.
Todd Wickstrom, who's joining usto talk about, uh, heritage
Food, U-S-A-U-S-A overall, whichis an amazing purveyor of
amazing food that you can'totherwise get, and specifically
about turkeys.
(20:35):
Todd, I
Mark (20:36):
what I'm really hoping you could tell everybody is what are
the differences between theseturkeys?
What are the differences betweenthe, the Turkey that we're
buying, the butterball thatwe're buying in our, in our
store, and the Turkey thatyou're buying?
Todd (20:47):
Well, I think that, you know, the, the most important
piece is that, you know, thesebirds are the birds that you
want to eat.
They're sort of the birds thatyou assume you've been eating
all along.
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
So
Todd (20:57):
these, you know, they all come from small family farms.
you know, they're.
We don't even like to use thewords free range and organic.
Mm-hmm.
Because I think that those sortsof words have become very beaten
up and they're very difficult todefine.
So instead of, you know, justsort of marketing semantics,
what we wanna do is reallypromote full traceability.
So.
Not only when people log ontoour website, can they order the
(21:19):
food, but they can actually seethe turkeys at the farm.
Francis (21:21):
Awesome.
And
Todd (21:22):
so we're not just gonna tell you they free range, we're
gonna show you that they're freerange.
Francis (21:25):
Do you know what's funny about that Is, you know,
as, as huge Agri agribusinesstries to co-opt the terms
organic.
Mm-hmm.
As soon as, as soon as you knowthe alternative farming, it's
big article.
Mark (21:35):
There's a big article in the Times this week about.
Trying to, trying to have themtake over organic and change the
definition
Francis (21:42):
when the alternative food production movement, which
is really not alternative.
I mean, this is really the way,this is the normal way to make
food.
Mark (21:47):
This is the way, and, and Todd, you alluded to this a
minute ago.
This is the way we all kind ofthought we were eating.
For all these years.
Francis (21:55):
if you want a good example of that, we also have a
link to the matrix.
And it's a very funny animationabout, you know, this image of
the family farm and I'm sorry,this image of, of a farm when
it's really just, it's some ofthe modern agribusiness farms
are really not very good placeswhere you know it, when you look
at it, you, it's not just.
That, um, it's inhumane.
You say, oh God, I don't want toeat something that's made there.
(22:17):
Mm-hmm.
You know?
Yep.
Whereas if you look at the realfarm, I think it's great that
you put the camera there'causeyou're like, okay, whatever word
the alternative food production,people come up with, then the
agribusiness tries to co-optthat term.
Mark (22:28):
Right, exactly.
Free range somehow stopped,meaning ranging free.
Right.
Francis (22:32):
So, so Todd has stuck a camera on the farms so you can
actually look at them and, andit makes a difference in how the
food tastes.
And again, I say.
Good taste is a statement.
Good taste is revolutionary andyou know all those tricks.
Like you, uh, you inject thebird with butter or you deep fry
the bird.
Mm-hmm.
Or you do all kinds of crazythings.
The reason those crazy recipescame about is the broad breasted
(22:54):
white is a dried out.
Why would you eat it?
But once a year, piece ofnothing, right?
You have to overcook
Mark (23:00):
the meat to in order to get the whole bird cooked.
'cause it's not the right size.
Francis (23:04):
Do you know how you cook a heritage bird?
You put it in the oven.
Little garlic, lolo oil.
Mm-hmm.
I like to use nut oil on top ofit.
Oh yeah, that's it.
You roast it and it's delicious.
Todd (23:14):
Yep.
Absolutely.
Well, I think you're right.
I think that, you know, that'swhy we don't really promote,
there's a lot of our food thatis organic.
There's a lot of our food thatis certified organic, but that's
not what we're selling.
What we're selling is the fulltraceability.
So, because there's also adifference between sort of deep
and shallow organics.
You know, a term coined by, uh,Elliot Coleman that says that.
You know, most people think oforganics as really the absence
(23:37):
of the bad things, but the otherside of organics is that if you
really do it right and youreally take care of the soil,
you can have extremely denselypacked nutrient full
Speaker 2 (23:47):
food.
Mm-hmm.
Todd (23:48):
And so that's really what we're trying to do is to really
let people to, to not only startthinking about their food, but
we believe that everybody inthis country, everybody in the
world, has a right to know wheretheir food comes from.
Now
Mark (24:00):
you kind of brought about this revolution, of.
Getting breeds of turkeys thatwere becoming extinct and
bringing them back into the foodmarket.
I, and I think that's kind ofcounterintuitive for a lot of
us.
Francis (24:12):
It's, some people think, well, is that an issue
of, you know, we had to burn thevillage to save it?
People make an analogy withthat.
And We have to eat the turkeysin order to keep them from going
extinct.
Can you explain how that works?
Todd (24:21):
Absolutely.
Well, you know, much like with apanda bear or a Bengal tiger or
a Komodo dragon, the very bestway to help save those things is
to put'em in the zoo soeverybody can go buy and see'em.
But if you've got a red waddlepig or a Narraganset Turkey, the
best way to save those is to eat'em.
So what we're trying to do, eventhough it seems a little, you
know.
Yeah,
Mark (24:41):
explain that to everybody.
'cause I, because I think that alittle bit
Todd (24:43):
connected.
Well, what we're trying to do isto really build the demand for
these breeds and for these, youknow, build markets for these
animals that weren't marketablebefore.
They take too long to grow.
They're completely inefficientwhen you become a farmer.
I mean, they take twice as muchfood, they take twice as long to
grow.
And when the market is outthere, the farmers didn't have a
market to sell these foods to.
You know, so if you go to thegrocery store and you look at a
(25:05):
product, and let's say now.
You know, you can still go atThanksgiving many times and, and
find a Turkey on sale for, youknow, 19 cents a pound, 29 cents
a
Mark (25:13):
pound.
You can get it free with yourgroceries.
Todd (25:15):
Exactly.
There's no
Mark (25:16):
such thing as a free lunch.
Todd (25:17):
Exactly.
If it's
Mark (25:18):
free, there's a reason.
Todd (25:20):
What we're trying to really promote, I mean, what we
are in the end is we are reallya conservation movement, but
what we do it is, we call itconservation by consumption.
And so what we're trying to dois to really give these farmers
and these animals access tomarkets and to really to start
with the people that reallyappreciate the flavor and the
quality.
(25:40):
Like when you look at some ofthe pork and the pork that you
guys bring into stage left,mm-hmm.
When you look at it, it is adifferent.
Color.
Mm-hmm.
It,
Francis (25:46):
it literally looks like it because we buy some pork from
Heritage Foods.
You know, we, we buy a lot offood.
you guys do a great job for us.
And if there are, and there, Iknow there are restaurateurs
that listen to this show.
You can go to Heritage Foods,USA and contact these guys, uh,
to deal with them wholesale.
It's honestly, it's a little bitof work to deal with you guys
wholesale.
It's not as convenient as your,as your big purveyor.
Mm-hmm.
But, but you know, you're asmall company as well, and you,
and you work with us and,frankly, the quality of the
(26:07):
ingredients.
And look, you, you can't be inan expensive restaurant and deal
with you guys because you're
Mark (26:12):
more, the, the products are more expensive.
It's more expensive.
And, and that's what Todd justtold you.
He, his turkeys are.
Age for two years, or at leasttwice as long, some of'em, three
years before they're ready tocome to market and, and be
eaten.
Todd (26:26):
Well, if you think, I mean, our entire mission is to
increase revenues for smallfamily farmers, and so when we
talk about, you know, we're,we're asking chefs to pay more
money.
It's not So Patrick and Todd candrive around in Ferraris, right.
So that we can make sure thatall of this money is going back
to the farmers.
Mm-hmm.
Francis (26:41):
Well, here, here, let's, let's do a shameless
plug.
There was an article in the NewYork Times by Mar Marion Burrows
talking about your plight,which, which caused me to pick
up the phone and call you rightaway.
Right.
Um, it seems as though, and, andyou guys really are.
Committed to these farmers and,and bringing enough revenue to
the family farm in a sustainableway.
'cause the business has to besustainable as well.
Okay.
We're not just crunchy greens,we're crunchy greens and we're
businessmen as well.
(27:02):
you're caught in a bind herewith some of these turkeys.
Tell us what, what that's allabout.
Todd (27:06):
Well, again, as we just talked about, you know, with
these animals, uh, and with theturkeys in particular, it takes
a long time to raise theseturkeys and so.
This movement really started,you know, coincidentally with an
article that Marion Burrowswrote several years ago, kind of
talking about the plight ofthese birds.
And as a result of that, youknow, the first year we had no
idea what.
(27:26):
The demand would be.
And so we sold, I think it was700 birds.
Mm-hmm.
And then the next year wedoubled and went to 1500, and
then the next year we went toaround 3000.
And so this year, you know, wehad to tell the farmers in
January how many birds we needin November.
Sure.
For Thanksgiving.
You know, that's the normaltime.
I mean, that's part of why the,the Turkey became such a, you
(27:48):
know, a centerpiece forThanksgiving is that was the
time that they were normallyready.
Speaker 2 (27:53):
To be butcher
Todd (27:53):
size.
Speaker 2 (27:54):
Mm-hmm.
Todd (27:54):
To be eaten.
And so we had to make acommitment to these farmers in
January of this year.
So January of this year.
We said, okay, we need 6,000whole birds.
So during the course of theyear, we had a few
conversations.
Hold
Francis (28:05):
on just one second.
I want, this is a cliffhangerhere and we're gonna tell you
the rest of this story at theend.
'cause we have 6,000 birds.
We have a couple thousand birdsthere without a home, and they
need to be in your home Thebirds are delicious.
We're talking with ToddWickstrom.
He's the founder of HeritageFoods USA, which distributes
some of the finest of foodsustainable foods in America,
and you can get them deliveredto your home.
And, uh, we, we left off withyou telling us a story, Todd,
(28:26):
about how you committed to 6,000birds, uh, to get 6,000 birds of
these amazing turkeys, which aremuch better than anything you'll
find in a supermarket.
And you had some major buyerspull out on you.
Todd (28:37):
We did, and I, I mean, I don't think it's anything
necessarily against thosebuyers.
It's like the rest of thecorporate world works.
You know, there's a new bossthat comes in and they've got
numbers and targets that theyhave to hit.
And so the easiest thing to gowas the very expensive Turkey
that, you know, the buyer hadcommitted to earlier.
So
Francis (28:52):
no new bosses at
Mark (28:53):
stage left.
Todd, you're
Francis (28:54):
safe.
Mark (28:54):
Fantastic.
Francis (28:55):
Well, here's the, here's the deal.
What, what Todd was talkingabout earlier is that the way a,
a farmer works is we have to, afarmer has to plan well in
advance.
And so these guys committed tothe farmers.
In January to buy 6,000 birds.
And, and I I love this, your,your partner, um, Patrick Martin
said in the New York Times, hewas cod as saying, Mr.
Martin said in a telephoneinterview, in the end, we'll pay
(29:16):
the farmer.
Whether Todd and I have to giveup$30,000 of our own money,
whether I have to end up movingto Brooklyn instead of living in
Manhattan, the farmers will bepaid.
It's gonna put a bit of a stresson us.
Listen, everybody order thesebirds, they're more expensive.
They are extraordinarilydelicious.
Mark (29:30):
And don't just order them for the farmers.
Order'em for yourself.
They're better.
Good taste is revolutionary.
And are they different?
Yes, they're different.
The flavor profiles aredifferent.
It's real, they're much tastierand they're easier to cook.
The, the, the meat is a littlebit firmer on them than you're
gonna be used to.
'cause they haven't beeninjected with all those liquids.
Yep.
Uh, but the very rich, butthey're really, rich is a great
(29:52):
word to describe them.
And really delicious birds.
Francis (29:55):
And they're, and they're less likely to dry out
because they have the naturalfats that are, that are supposed
to be in poultry.
They're easier to cook, they'reharder to overcook, and they're
delicious.
Todd (30:03):
Absolutely.
And it's just a great gift togive to your friends and family.
I mean, to provide, you know,the centerpiece Thanksgiving is
the quintessential Americanholiday.
It sort of defies, you know,race and religion and ethnicity
and everything else.
And so, you know, it's just afantastic way.
There's not a lot everybody canafford our products week in and
week out.
It is very expensive because ofhow much we pay the farmers and
(30:23):
there's shipping that has to beon top of it.
We don't have efficientdistribution for these products.
Francis (30:27):
Mm-hmm.
Well, and, and, and listen,everybody, if you're paying 19
cents a pound for.
Bird.
Y you know that a farmer can'tmake a living on that of course,
because that means a farmer'sgetting 7 cents a pound and the
only way to grow meat at 7 centsa pound is to do some pretty
things.
Some things that you don't wantdone is defeated.
Things you don't want it fed.
Yes, exactly.
How's that?
Todd (30:44):
We happen to think there's a lot more at stake than just a
few turkeys.
You know, Daniel Webster, one ofthe, you know, Patriots of this
country said.
Years and years and years andyears ago, whatever that was,
200 plus years ago, to, youknow, he said, let us not forget
that the cultivation of theearth is the most important
labor of man, that when thetillage begins, the other arts
(31:05):
will follow.
Speaker 2 (31:06):
Mm-hmm.
Todd (31:06):
Therefore the farmers or the founders of civilization.
Speaker 2 (31:09):
Yep.
Todd (31:10):
And so if you think about that, and I happen to think
that's very true, what happenswhen we lose the farmers?
And what happens when we forgetwhat food is all about and we
really take food and what we'vedone in this country is made it
so cheap that it's lost all ofits value.
Francis (31:23):
Mm-hmm.
Did you know that in, in theseventies, the American
household used to spend themiddle class, American household
used to spend 50% of theirincome on food.
Now they spend less than 10% oftheir income on food, and that
seems like a good thing.
But you know what?
There's a downside to that aswell.
Todd (31:38):
Yeah, we spend less per capita as a percentage of our
income in the United States thanany other industrialized nation
in the world.
Francis (31:45):
And we also have some of the worst tasting food,
coincidentally, to be honestwith you.
Todd (31:49):
I just heard, I heard yesterday on a, uh, on a show
here in Michigan that the CensusBureau has just taking farming.
Off of the census as anoccupation because there was so
few of the small fish farmersleft.
Ah,
Mark (32:01):
tragic.
What a tragedy.
Uh, Todd, I wanna talk to youjust, just let's briefly touch
on another subject.
One of the, one of the issuesthat I, that I know your company
has, and stage left andCatherine Lombardi have, been
fortunate enough to be able touse whole animals is that most
of the people who can affordthis meat want the prime cuts
only.
Francis (32:20):
That has, and that has, we're talking about for larger
animals like lamb and pigs.
People want the loin and thenyou know the chops and that's
it.
But culturally, we've gottenaway from using the whole
animal.
Mm-hmm.
And so do you have a problemwith those secondary cuts?
Todd (32:33):
Uh, well, we, we have a problem with them up to a
certain point.
I think that, you know, what'shappening is that we're starting
to see a huge resurgence in thiscountry of, of chefs and
restaurateurs, much likeyourselves, who are realizing
that it's not enough.
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 (32:48):
Just to
Todd (32:48):
know how to cook, that you have sort of a social
responsibility to really careabout where your food comes from
and about.
Exactly sort of the plight thatyou guys are describing.
Right.
And so there's a lot of chefsright now around the country who
are starting to use more of the,you know, non-traditional cuts,
the cheek meat, the jowls, the,you know, we're in the process
right now.
(33:08):
We have just finished our lasttest batch yesterday, of
starting to sell the lard, uh,for these pig.
Oh, that's awesome.
Do you think that, you know, theflavor of pork really comes from
the fat?
Francis (33:18):
Listen, everybody.
If you go to Heritage Foods,USA, when you get your Turkey,
could save on the shipping andhave'em send you some lard
because lard in baking, if youfind old recipes where, you
know, they substituted Crisco,but if you use lard, especially
in pastry, oh my God, it's thesecret
Mark (33:33):
weapon.
Throw the Crisco away and startcooking with lard again, and you
will ne and everybody's gonnaask you why your, your pastries
and your baking is so good.
Yep.
Everybody will ask
Todd (33:42):
you best fried chicken in the world.
So large is a big part.
We're also working on developinga very, um.
Aggressive sausage makingcampaign where we're gonna take
a lot of these breeds and havesome rare breeds.
Specific, you know, red bottlepork, Italian sausage.
uh, Peter Kaminsky know has agreat book out right now called
Pig Perfect.
And he has a couple of things inthere where, you know, sort of
tongue in cheek starting a newcampaign to call pork, the other
(34:05):
red meat, not the other white.
And you
Francis (34:07):
know, actually you can use the tongue and the cheek of
a pig.
Do I get no laugh from eitherone of you on that one?
No.
That was hilarious because itwas horrible.
Okay.
He's the guest, he's gotta tellyou.
It was hilarious.
Oh my God.
I'm the co-host.
It
Mark (34:18):
was horrible.
Francis (34:19):
That's, I mean, the tongue in the cheek.
That was funny.
Okay.
I thought it was good.
You know, a leader in the, inthe, uh, and an inspiration in
American food.
I really blazed the trails ofusing what, what are secondary,
tertiary cuts meat.
Um, to great effect is MarioVitali.
Mm-hmm.
In his, in his version ofItalian cuisine and Italian
American cuisine, there are alot of secondary cuts of meat
that, you know what, anybody cancook a loin.
(34:41):
Yep.
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
Anybody can cook the loin, thetenderloin.
Okay.
But when you take the porkbutton, you make something nice
out of it.
And, and when you go to Babo inthe city, Mario Batali's places
you will find.
Wonderful dishes made fromcheeks and jowls.
Mark (34:54):
And, and the other thing you'll find is a lot of those
secondary and tertiary cuts ofmeat are the most flavorful cuts
in the, if you cook
Francis (35:00):
them.
Right.
And that's what takes your skillas a cook.
So if you're a home cook, youknow Yeah.
You know, great.
Okay.
You know how to grill a steak.
That's terrific.
Now let's get past the cutlet.
And when you talk about the slowcooking meat, when you talk
about, you know, the shank isthe first step, you know those
long cooking, like the ossobucoparts of things, but then you go
into the cuts of meat beyondthat.
That's where you can show yourskill.
That's where I'm impressed.
(35:21):
Hey, listen, Todd, I wanna saythanks for for joining us today.
Todd (35:23):
Absolutely.
Well, thanks so much.
One last thing on using thepiece is make sure that if you
do order the heritage Turkey,don't throw away the carcass.
You'll have the best tastingsoups when you use that to make
absolutely the best.
Francis (35:33):
Absolutely.
Todd (35:34):
Excellent.
Well, heritage foods usa.com.
And uh, mark and Francis, Ireally appreciate all of your
support.
Francis (35:39):
No problem.
You're the bomb man.
Thanks Todd.
Keep up the good work.
Todd (35:42):
Thanks.
Francis (35:42):
Bye-bye.
Take care.
You're listening to theRestaurant Guys, you know, we
(36:15):
are not really getting anyadvertising revenue from these
guys.
There's no sponsorship.
Uh, we just believe in whatthey're doing.
Heritage Foods USA is thewebsite.
You can get there throughrestaurant guys radio.com,
Listen, these turkeys aren'tcheap.
But if you think about, and weonly think of them as not cheap
because it's 19 cents a pound iswhat we're comparing them to,
right?
Um, you know, think of it as ameal.
If you're feeding 20 people andyou spend, you're spending a
(36:36):
dollar or two a person.
That's not really a lot,
Mark (36:39):
right?
You know, well, some of theseturkeys are, you know, you can,
you, they're coming in aroundnine,$10 a pound.
That's, that's what you're gonnaspend, including shipping for a
heritage Turkey.
And unfortunately, about half ofit is, is shipping.
In order to get these birds toyou first, it's totally worth
it.
Totally
Francis (36:54):
worth it.
Totally worth, I'm sorry.
Totally.
It's a holiday meal.
Totally worth it.
And one of the other things wetalked about is this company,
when you're on that website,bang around, they, that's a, a
lot of the stuff we talk aboutis available on their website.
Mm-hmm.
And as a restaurant, and one ofthe reasons I think that
restaurants play an importantrole is'cause you can't buy a
whole pig at home.
Mm-hmm.
What are you gonna do with it?
Right.
You know, what are you gonna dowith that?
Mark (37:12):
Well, I.
I'm really excited that we justopened this restaurant cabinet.
Francis (37:16):
I mean, you could keep it in your backyard until you
killed it.
But then Captain
Mark (37:17):
Lombardi, who was, who was my grandmother?
Mm-hmm.
Uh, we just opened thisrestaurant that's, that's named
after her.
And what did she do back inBrooklyn in the, in the forties
and fifties?
My grandmother, what she wasdoing was she would buy these,
these tertiary cuts and these,these secondary cuts and make
some of the most flavorful.
Food that you've ever had inyour life.
(37:37):
Right.
The bra jo was not made ofTenderloin and I feel really
good about being able to, buythese whole pigs and be able to
use all the cuts and be able touse all, these secondary cuts,
which frankly are I think aremore flavorful than than.
A lot of the primary cuts that,that we eat on a day-to-day
basis and make our own homemadesausage out of'em and, and put
(37:59):
that sausage in the lasagna usethe shoulder for the bra.
I just think that those flavorsare tremendous and it, and it's
great to be able to be at thesame time supporting a family
farmer who's, who's trying to dosomething, which unfortunately.
Has has fallen out of the norm.
Yeah.
And, agribusinesses has takenover all those farms and we
(38:19):
want, we want some of thosefarms to come back and frankly,
I would rather eat,'cause thefood's better.
'cause food's better.
If, if that's your only reason.
'cause it tastes better.
I'm totally fine with that.
Francis (38:27):
And frankly, on a budget I'd rather eat.
You're better off on healthwise, eco economics wise.
Mm-hmm.
Eat meat three times a week andeat great meat three times a
week.
Mm-hmm.
Rather than eating, you know.
Mediocre meat five nights aweek.
There's our advice from therestaurant guys.
Good taste is revolutionary.
Do well by doing good.
I'm Francis Shot.
And I'm Mark Pascal.
We are the restaurant guys,central Jersey 1450.
The time is 12 noon.
Good morning, mark.
Mark (01:31):
Good morning, Francis.
How are you this morning?
I'm doing better than I was justa week ago.
Francis (01:35):
Everyone should know, and this is the first place that
this has been announced publiclythat, uh, we have just opened
our second restaurant, CatherineLombardi.
We haven't emailed anyone.
We haven't told anyone.
On Monday we was it Sunday,Sunday night.
It's all blending together onSunday night.
A little blur.
We sort of snuck down thestairs.
And unlock the door a littleturn, lock, lock unlocked.
(01:58):
Let's see what comes up.
And we're doing this veryslowly.
Until, of course, tonight, nowthat we're broke this on radio,
we were doing it very slowly.
The website is still you, youCTC listeners are really in the
know because, uh, the website isstill down.
It still says coming soon.
The lights aren't on out front.
This is the
Mark (02:14):
very first announcement right here.
We're just letting
Francis (02:16):
it
Mark (02:16):
go pretty slowly.
Yeah, it was, uh, boy, that washard.
Yeah, but it's, it's funny'causewhat a, what a lot of people may
not realize is one of the thingsthat you do, uh, when you're
opening a restaurant is what wecall dry runs.
And, and Francis and I spentThursday, Friday, Saturday
doing.
Just that where, where youinvite your family in and you
invite some very close personalfriends, people who won't tell
(02:38):
anybody what you did wrong.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And
Francis (02:41):
the rule is that they, that they, they don't have to
pay.
Mm-hmm.
And it's not gonna be very goodbecause you're gonna mess it up.
You're gonna take too long.
And so we invited maybe 20people in each night.
Mm-hmm.
You know, and a lot of it, well,we did two seatings on Saturday,
so, and a lot of it was thepeople who worked on the project
with us and we just said, you.
And you know, you never knowwhen you're gonna get your co.
So any of our friends who arelistening, who we didn't call,
(03:02):
sorry.
Right.
It was
Mark (03:03):
last minute, I
Francis (03:04):
need you to sit down in four hours.
And, um, it was veryinteresting.
And, and restaurants that do dryruns, what you do is you open up
and you, you, well, you don'topen, I'm sorry.
You, you sit people down and youturn on the music and you start
cooking the food and you, andyou present the menu to people
and you bring coffee and youbring, have your staff in and
you train people.
What was sort of amusing was.
You'd have, we had two captainsfor the whole room.
(03:24):
Mm-hmm.
With five waiters behind eachcaptain.
Right.
Mark (03:26):
Little, little train, little choo choo train of
waiters going through the room.
Little
Francis (03:30):
parade would come up to your table and like, as a gang
would, conga lines we were doingfor the, the restaurant with,
but what you do afterwards isyou then sit down with, uh, the
chef and the maitre d and uh,the staff and you have a brief
meeting with them, and then theowners and the matri, the chef
sit down and you take, we, wesolicit criticism from everyone.
We share that criticism and we,and we, it's important.
(03:54):
That's why we invited thosepeople in.
And it's funny'cause Mark andi's it's, it's like the ultimate
restaurant dream.
The other reason you invitefriends and family is because
Mark and I walk around with afork.
Mm-hmm.
I'm like, excuse me, I need alittle, that doesn't look great.
Kind a little bit of that, ittaste the rush off.
Or, or people will say, it'sactually in a way it's, it's a
Ma d's um, dream.
Because you walk over to peopleand you say, and they say, and
(04:14):
you say, well.
How is that?
They're like, yeah, it's, it's alittle, it's a little salty.
A little salty.
Like, oh yeah, here, gimme someof that.
And you actually do that.
And you know, some people arelike, yeah, that is a little
salty.
And other people you think, ah,you're crazy than,
Mark (04:26):
well, that's one of the, big problems that you have
whenever you open yourself up tothis kind of criticism, uhhuh.
And I gotta tell you, having 80people.
Asking 80 people to say, okay, Iwant you to nitpick,
Speaker 2 (04:37):
right?
Mark (04:37):
I want you to look at every tiny little detail from
where the fork is placed.
How high to dim, how high didthe waiter fill your water glass
to time them from the time youorder your bottle of wine until
the time you get your bottle ofwine?
Well, ands.
The hard part is it's, it'sreally hard and they criticism.
But you know, I, I own a nicerestaurant.
(04:59):
And I'm used to most people, 99%of people coming in and saying,
Hey, that was really great.
Thanks so much for that specialevening on their way out the
door.
Yeah.
And instead I got my mom saying,uh, too much pepper on the,
she's like, you're my mom.
Francis (05:16):
You're supposed like everything I do.
No, but it's true.
And it, but it's very valuable.
But I will tell you, itsurprised me how emotionally
exhausting it really.
Mm-hmm.
It really is.
It really is.
Because for three days we had.
Hmm.
60 people a day.
Mm-hmm.
Just ab absolutely.
Ripping apart everything we did,which is exactly what we wanted,
which is what we very, veryvaluable, what we were
Mark (05:35):
begging for.
But you have to take all thatinformation.
As a restaurant owner, you haveto take all that information,
and we do this all the time, butyou do it one or two comments at
a time.
Mm-hmm.
As opposed to a hundred commentsat a time.
And you have to take all thatinformation.
You have to filter one personsaying your entrees are too big.
And the next person saying, yourentrees are too small.
(05:55):
Yeah.
One person saying, this dish isperfect.
The next person saying, thisdish is a little salty.
Yeah.
And you have to, you have tofilter.
Did my line cook mess up?
And did he salt the second onetoo much?
Well, that's why
Francis (06:07):
in dry runs you can walk around with a fork.
Exactly.
Gimme a piece of that.
But even so, you have peoplewho, when it is made the same
way, both times, someone,someone in the dining room will
say.
This is way too salty.
The other person will say, thisisn't salty enough, and you've
gotta say, Hmm.
Which, which is Right.
Right.
Mark (06:21):
So, so we, so literally we're sitting in the, in the
dining room, filtering thatinformation and, and walking
through the dining room, andrunning through the dining room
in some cases, and filteringthat information of what is
someone's personal preferenceand what is.
Something that makes the dishreally good or not
Francis (06:38):
really good.
The other thing that's veryinteresting in, for us in this
restaurant, Catherine Lombardi,which is the restaurant we just
opened in downtown New Brunswickmm-hmm.
Is our, our first restaurant isa contemporary American
restaurant.
We've had it for 13 years andwe've, you know, the ship is
sailing, you know, and we slowlyturn it right and we slowly turn
it left and, and we we're verycomfortable.
We are presenting.
Our own vision of contemporaryAmerican cuisine.
(07:00):
Obviously Chef Anthony Buco,who's the executive chef of both
restaurants, it's, it's hisvision of the food.
Mm-hmm.
It, it's the vision we've comeup with together and we present
contemporary food.
Mm-hmm.
And people, you know, like it ordon't, but some people don't
like our food and that's fine,but.
This food is different.
It's Italian American cuisine,right?
Mark (07:17):
Everybody has some experience with this food and
Francis (07:19):
everybody has a strong opinion on it.
Mm-hmm.
And you know, my mother didn'tmake it this way.
Right.
It's good, but the real way tomake it is this, and the real
way to make it is, of course,the way that your mother made
it.
But your mother didn't make itthe way Mark's mother made it.
I,
Mark (07:29):
I was, frankly, one of the most amusing things was, and
most interesting things for mewas everybody had an opinion
about the meatballs.
Oh, they're just right.
They're cooked too long.
They spent too much in time inthe sauce.
They didn't spend enough time inthe sauce.
They need more cheese.
Too much cheese.
Yeah, I know.
They need some breadcrumbs.
Meatballs are comfort food, man.
Francis (07:48):
And it's what?
It's what you remember as a kid.
And I think that one of theinteresting things for us is in
contemporary American cuisine,we combine things in new ways.
We go to the market and wepresent what's fresh.
And it's not recipe driven foodat all.
It's.
We take what's fresh in themarket.
Mm-hmm.
And when we present it in a, ina beautiful way, this is recipe
driven food.
And these recipes have a historyand people are involved and
(08:10):
interested in that history.
Mm-hmm.
And some people aren't gonnalike what we do.
Yeah.
You know, I mean, we're stilldeveloping what we do and
changing what we do, but somepeople are not gonna like it
because it doesn't conform totheir idea of what Italian
American food should be.
And those are valid ideas.
And that's gonna be a hard pillto swallow, I think for you and
me pal.
Yeah.
Mark (08:26):
Well, Francis, we have a guest for our next segment, but
maybe after that segment we'llcome back and talk about some of
this a little
Francis (08:31):
bit more.
We have Todd Wickstrom joiningus from Heritage Foods, USA, who
is a purveyor of perhaps thefinest turkeys in America.
And these turkeys are good forthe planet, but they're also the
most delicious, amazing,wonderful turkeys that you can
possibly have.
My family has one every.
Uh, Todd is not a paidadvertiser.
He's just, we're bringing'em on,and there's time for you to
(08:51):
order one of these great turkeysand have it delivered to your
home.
They're a little expensive.
They're amazing.
Todd Wickstrom from HeritageFoods, USA will be joining us in
just a moment.
You're listening to theRestaurant guys, we have with us
a guest today, a gentleman whodoes a lot of good work and, and
is a purveyor of some of thefinest foods on the planet.
Todd Wickstrom is with HeritageFood, USA.
Hello, Tom.
Todd (09:09):
Hey Mark.
How are you
Francis (09:10):
Todd, how you doing?
Good.
How's
Mark (09:12):
Francis?
Francis (09:12):
He's doing well, Francis.
How you doing?
I'm doing great.
Thanks.
Now Todd, you sell and, we'regiving you a free plug here,
man.
Uh, and I, I want to talk aboutHeritage Foods overall'cause
it's an interesting topic and Ithink some of the work you guys
are doing is very important.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
Well, thank you sir.
Francis (09:26):
But right now, in a very timely manner, uh, you have
some turkeys available forThanksgiving.
Is that not true?
Todd (09:33):
We absolutely do.
Francis (09:33):
Okay, here's the deal.
We're gonna get to talkingspecifically about turkeys a
little bit later on, but theturkeys that they have are
heritage breeds of Turkey, andyou can get to their website,
heritage USA's website by goingto our website, and you can go
and get yourself A bird like youhaven't had since 1952 and if
you weren't around in 1952, abird like you've never had
before.
So, but before we get to talkingabout birds, why don't you tell
(09:54):
us what Heritage Foods, USA isall about?
Todd (09:56):
Absolutely.
Well, let me tell you reallybriefly what Heritage Foods USA,
uh, is and does.
Basically, we're food brokersfor small family farmers, and we
are trying very.
Um, intensely to promote geneticdiversity, uh, and increase
revenues for small familyfarmers.
So what we do is, is we, itstarted with the turkeys several
(10:18):
years ago when we were reallyjust sort of working as the
marketing arm for slow food USA.
Mm-hmm.
And the turkeys were sosuccessful the first few years
that we had many farmers thatwould come to us and say, well,
look, if you can sell turkeys,don't you think you can sell
pigs and sheep?
And, you know, the whole gamut.
And so what we're really tryingto do is to, to protect a lot of
(10:40):
these breeds that are really,you know, rare and endangered
things that were, were really indanger of losing on a.
On a daily basis, and, and themore we've gotten into it, the
more we have come to realizethat what's mostly rare and
endangered is the small familyfarmer.
So, so what we're trying toreally do is to, to give these
small family farmers the abilityto get their products to markets
(11:02):
on a national level.
I mean, you guys are stage left,buy a lot of product from us
right now.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
Mm-hmm.
Todd (11:07):
From farmers in the middle of Kansas and Missouri.
And there would be no other way,no other avenue for them to be
able to contact you.
Francis (11:14):
You know, the interesting thing about it is
what people may not realize is,yeah, okay.
If you go to the.
To try and stay on the farm ortry to establish a small family
farm and run things in atraditional way.
Well, you have a problem there.
It used to be that the, youknow, the agribusiness, the,
the, the large corporations, youcould sell to the local
supermarket or you could sell toa supermarket chain.
Right?
The supermarket chain does notwanna deal with a small farmer,
(11:35):
just simply doesn't.
I've got tomatoes that you canhave, uh, through the month of
August and into the first weekof September, the, the, even,
even when those tomatoes areavailable, the supermarket chain
now says, listen, I've got a 12month deal with, you know, this
huge agribusiness firm thatgives me California and
Guatemala and tomatoes.
Can't maybe bothered, maybe aSouth
Mark (11:54):
American company.
Francis (11:55):
I can't be bothered.
You know, changing around whatcomes around locally.
And so what happens
Todd (12:00):
regardless of the fact that it doesn't taste like a
tomato.
Right, exactly.
Francis (12:03):
Exactly.
And that's why we say in thisshow all the time, you know,
good taste is revolutionary.
Good taste is important in somany ways.
You can do well, you can do wellby doing good and having good
taste.
Exactly.
But, but what you guys do that'sso important and, and we've met
with a bunch of organic farmershere in New Jersey on a number
of occasions, and we've met withother restaurateurs who were
interested in dealing with thefamily farm.
(12:24):
But it's very hard to get allthis stuff because the, the, if
you have a family farm, the onlyjob that's harder than being,
being a restaurateur is being afarmer.
Mark (12:32):
Mm-hmm.
But I don't think that, that yourealize even the, the degree of
the service that, that you givewhen you connect the two of us,
because even in New Jersey, we,Francis and I, it's a lot of
work to connect directly to thefarmer and, and there needs to
be a middleman, there needs tobe someone who can funnel those,
those products.
(12:53):
To the restaurants and, and makeit happen because the farmers
need to be focused on theirfarms and the restaurants need
to be focused in theirrestaurants.
Francis (13:00):
Right.
Exactly.
On the high end.
On the super high end, likestage left.
Okay.
Stage left is, is an expensive,super high end restaurant.
We dedicate hours and hours aweek to sourcing ingredients.
Okay.
And that's what makes us amongthe best.
But most restaurants don't havesomeone.
Mm-hmm.
You know, they need to just beable to pick up the phone and
place an order and the farm.
The farmer has to be on thefarm.
(13:20):
He can't be driving around fromrestaurant to restaurant,
Mark (13:22):
delivering, delivering.
He's got work to do, deliverpigs and deciding who gets
Francis (13:26):
what portion of what pig.
How do you make the connectionbetween, between the, the
consumer and the farmer?
How do you do that?
Todd (13:32):
Well, I think, you know, for me, I, I actually spent the
first 20 years of my career inthe restaurant business, and so
I understand, you know,intimately what.
The chefs and the restaurateursare looking for, and I also knew
that it was very difficult, ifnot impossible, to find that
product.
Like you said.
I mean, there's very fewrestaurants that can dedicate,
you know, an entire salarieddeposition to a forger,
Speaker 2 (13:53):
you know?
Mm-hmm.
Right,
Todd (13:54):
right.
Go out there and try to attractdown all these products, and so.
I think that for us, what reallystarted to to click was that,
you know, what we were doing,you know, it was industrial
agriculture as things havereally changed over the last
several decades, is that, youknow, we have bred out flavor
from all of the products.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
Mm-hmm.
Todd (14:13):
I mean, you know, go to the market and buy a honeydew
melon.
I mean, that has no.
Flavor whatsoever.
Mark (14:18):
Well, by, by breeding out the diversity, that's exactly
what you do Every, we want everymelon to taste the same, even if
the same is bad.
Francis (14:25):
And it's all, and it's all a hook, everybody.
It's marketing.
Because if you don't have goodtaste, and if you don't say that
melons not very good, then thesupermarket is free to buy it
from wherever it's cheapest andget it 12 months a year.
Mm-hmm.
Whereas if you say, you knowwhat, if the tomatoes are aren't
good, I'm not buying them.
Well, then they have to adjustto your taste.
And doing that usually meansthey have to buy locally, which
usually keeps one of yourneighbors on a farm within a
(14:47):
couple of towns, or at leastwithin a county away.
And that usually is better forthe planet because if you don't
have to fly something fromGuatemala to New York, it uses
less fossil fuels in gettinghere.
And it's all about justdemanding that the tomato tastes
like a tomato and tastes good.
And that's what Todd Wickstromhelps us to do is to make those
connections.
Because sometimes we have afamily farm in our own backyard,
(15:07):
but we don't know how to get theproduce.
And Todd really helps us.
Mark (15:09):
we're talking about how to get your delicious heritage
breed Turkey
Francis (15:14):
Um, and, and we're pushing this because I, I
switched over to HeritageTurkeys for my own family, and
we serve them in stage left.
Mm-hmm.
They're not inexpensive people.
About three,
Mark (15:21):
about three years ago, we switched, maybe four years ago
we switched.
When did, when did you startthis program, Todd?
Todd (15:25):
About then about four years ago.
Mm-hmm.
The fourth.
Thanksgiving
Mark (15:28):
let's talk about the heritage breeds of Turkey.
Let's talk about, about how theycame about.
Todd (15:32):
Okay.
Mark (15:32):
Uh, now Todd, what is the Turkey that we see in our
supermarket every week?
Todd (15:37):
Uh, the, the, you know, 99% of all the turkeys that are
out there right now are thebroad breasted white Turkey.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, and these are turkeys thatreally, uh, were, were sort of
almost created by the industrialagriculture.
Would you.
Francis (15:50):
Would you think that Franken Turkey would be an
exaggeration?
Todd (15:54):
Yeah, I think, you know, it's interesting, I think that
that, that the industrialturkeys, what you see in your
grocery store, uh, is probably areally good example of, of, you
know, where people don't want toknow where their food,
Mark (16:05):
if, if you look close at that Turkey, you can actually
see the bolts on it.
Snack
Todd (16:10):
exactly.
The scars from the stitches.
Francis (16:14):
Let's let, let, let's just ask a few questions.
Let's talk about, let's, let'sgive Butterball its dew here for
a moment.
Um, so Todd, you know, you knowa lot about turkeys, right?
Yes, sir.
Okay.
Broad breasted white.
Um, how can it fly?
Nope.
Cannot fly.
Okay.
Can it, um, can it sexuallyreproduce?
Can it procreate?
Todd (16:30):
It can't have sex.
Francis (16:32):
Oh, poor Turkey.
That's why it's so, exactly.
So I'd be mad loaded.
Todd (16:36):
Yeah.
It can't fly.
It can't reproduce.
You know, their beaks areclipped the top beak that cuts,
uh, half the top off of thebeak.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
Why?
Why
Todd (16:45):
actually bottom.
One acts like a shovel.
I mean, if you have a littlebeak, all you can do is sort of
peck and you eat very slowly.
And so they cut off the topbeak, uh, to make it more like a
shovel.
And so they can eat a lot morefood a lot faster.
Francis (16:58):
Now, can these do these, these, these broad
breasted whites, they don't havesex.
I guess they just walk aroundall, all the day on the farm.
Todd (17:04):
Uh, well, I think, you know, walking might be an
exaggeration.
Mm-hmm.
I mean, most of these things, Imean, they have to be pumped up
full of, you know, all sorts of,uh, antibiotics just so that
they don't get sick insidethere.
You know, I mean, they live inhuge warehouses that barely ever
see the light of day.
So,
Francis (17:21):
so you're talking about an animal that if it weren't
pumped up full of hormones andantibiotics and, and selectively
bred and had its be cut off,they would, would fall over and
die and cease to exist.
Todd (17:30):
Exactly.
They could not survive outdoors.
Francis (17:32):
Um.
Let me get this right.
Animal rights activists aregoing after the fo gra
producers.
I don't, I don't get thateverybody, exactly.
Okay.
This
Todd (17:41):
is more, maybe more gentle where you lovingly caress it
and, you know, help feed it abig whatever pals of really good
(19:33):
food.
Francis (19:34):
You know, it's funny, we're so far divorced from the
means of production.
Mm-hmm.
That, you know, and look, I, Ibelieve in raising animals for
food.
I am not a vegetarian.
I like to eat meat.
Yep.
And, and I'm not a bleedingheart liberal.
Yep.
Todd (19:46):
you know, we don't spend much time at all talking about
the way that industrialagriculture raises it.
I think there's enough sort offearmongering in this country
already.
So instead of trying to reallyjust focus on all the negatives,
which are, you know, there's,it's infinite.
The things that you could talkabout, about how crazy our food
system has become.
What we really choose to do isto focus on what's so great
about supporting these farmers.
(20:07):
How much good for you differentit really tastes, you know,
Mark (20:09):
we, we don't mind scaring our listeners a little bit.
Todd (20:12):
No, I think a little fear is good.
Francis (20:14):
Well, and especially when we're presenting them with
an alternative like a HeritageFoods USA Turkey.
We're gonna talk more aboutTurkeys and Thanksgiving in just
a moment.
Today we have with us fromHeritage Foods, USA.
Todd Wickstrom, who's joining usto talk about, uh, heritage
Food, U-S-A-U-S-A overall, whichis an amazing purveyor of
amazing food that you can'totherwise get, and specifically
about turkeys.
(20:35):
Todd, I
Mark (20:36):
what I'm really hoping you could tell everybody is what are
the differences between theseturkeys?
What are the differences betweenthe, the Turkey that we're
buying, the butterball thatwe're buying in our, in our
store, and the Turkey thatyou're buying?
Todd (20:47):
Well, I think that, you know, the, the most important
piece is that, you know, thesebirds are the birds that you
want to eat.
They're sort of the birds thatyou assume you've been eating
all along.
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
So
Todd (20:57):
these, you know, they all come from small family farms.
you know, they're.
We don't even like to use thewords free range and organic.
Mm-hmm.
Because I think that those sortsof words have become very beaten
up and they're very difficult todefine.
So instead of, you know, justsort of marketing semantics,
what we wanna do is reallypromote full traceability.
So.
Not only when people log ontoour website, can they order the
(21:19):
food, but they can actually seethe turkeys at the farm.
Francis (21:21):
Awesome.
And
Todd (21:22):
so we're not just gonna tell you they free range, we're
gonna show you that they're freerange.
Francis (21:25):
Do you know what's funny about that Is, you know,
as, as huge Agri agribusinesstries to co-opt the terms
organic.
Mm-hmm.
As soon as, as soon as you knowthe alternative farming, it's
big article.
Mark (21:35):
There's a big article in the Times this week about.
Trying to, trying to have themtake over organic and change the
definition
Francis (21:42):
when the alternative food production movement, which
is really not alternative.
I mean, this is really the way,this is the normal way to make
food.
Mark (21:47):
This is the way, and, and Todd, you alluded to this a
minute ago.
This is the way we all kind ofthought we were eating.
For all these years.
Francis (21:55):
if you want a good example of that, we also have a
link to the matrix.
And it's a very funny animationabout, you know, this image of
the family farm and I'm sorry,this image of, of a farm when
it's really just, it's some ofthe modern agribusiness farms
are really not very good placeswhere you know it, when you look
at it, you, it's not just.
That, um, it's inhumane.
You say, oh God, I don't want toeat something that's made there.
(22:17):
Mm-hmm.
You know?
Yep.
Whereas if you look at the realfarm, I think it's great that
you put the camera there'causeyou're like, okay, whatever word
the alternative food production,people come up with, then the
agribusiness tries to co-optthat term.
Mark (22:28):
Right, exactly.
Free range somehow stopped,meaning ranging free.
Right.
Francis (22:32):
So, so Todd has stuck a camera on the farms so you can
actually look at them and, andit makes a difference in how the
food tastes.
And again, I say.
Good taste is a statement.
Good taste is revolutionary andyou know all those tricks.
Like you, uh, you inject thebird with butter or you deep fry
the bird.
Mm-hmm.
Or you do all kinds of crazythings.
The reason those crazy recipescame about is the broad breasted
(22:54):
white is a dried out.
Why would you eat it?
But once a year, piece ofnothing, right?
You have to overcook
Mark (23:00):
the meat to in order to get the whole bird cooked.
'cause it's not the right size.
Francis (23:04):
Do you know how you cook a heritage bird?
You put it in the oven.
Little garlic, lolo oil.
Mm-hmm.
I like to use nut oil on top ofit.
Oh yeah, that's it.
You roast it and it's delicious.
Todd (23:14):
Yep.
Absolutely.
Well, I think you're right.
I think that, you know, that'swhy we don't really promote,
there's a lot of our food thatis organic.
There's a lot of our food thatis certified organic, but that's
not what we're selling.
What we're selling is the fulltraceability.
So, because there's also adifference between sort of deep
and shallow organics.
You know, a term coined by, uh,Elliot Coleman that says that.
You know, most people think oforganics as really the absence
(23:37):
of the bad things, but the otherside of organics is that if you
really do it right and youreally take care of the soil,
you can have extremely denselypacked nutrient full
Speaker 2 (23:47):
food.
Mm-hmm.
Todd (23:48):
And so that's really what we're trying to do is to really
let people to, to not only startthinking about their food, but
we believe that everybody inthis country, everybody in the
world, has a right to know wheretheir food comes from.
Now
Mark (24:00):
you kind of brought about this revolution, of.
Getting breeds of turkeys thatwere becoming extinct and
bringing them back into the foodmarket.
I, and I think that's kind ofcounterintuitive for a lot of
us.
Francis (24:12):
It's, some people think, well, is that an issue
of, you know, we had to burn thevillage to save it?
People make an analogy withthat.
And We have to eat the turkeysin order to keep them from going
extinct.
Can you explain how that works?
Todd (24:21):
Absolutely.
Well, you know, much like with apanda bear or a Bengal tiger or
a Komodo dragon, the very bestway to help save those things is
to put'em in the zoo soeverybody can go buy and see'em.
But if you've got a red waddlepig or a Narraganset Turkey, the
best way to save those is to eat'em.
So what we're trying to do, eventhough it seems a little, you
know.
Yeah,
Mark (24:41):
explain that to everybody.
'cause I, because I think that alittle bit
Todd (24:43):
connected.
Well, what we're trying to do isto really build the demand for
these breeds and for these, youknow, build markets for these
animals that weren't marketablebefore.
They take too long to grow.
They're completely inefficientwhen you become a farmer.
I mean, they take twice as muchfood, they take twice as long to
grow.
And when the market is outthere, the farmers didn't have a
market to sell these foods to.
You know, so if you go to thegrocery store and you look at a
(25:05):
product, and let's say now.
You know, you can still go atThanksgiving many times and, and
find a Turkey on sale for, youknow, 19 cents a pound, 29 cents
a
Mark (25:13):
pound.
You can get it free with yourgroceries.
Todd (25:15):
Exactly.
There's no
Mark (25:16):
such thing as a free lunch.
Todd (25:17):
Exactly.
If it's
Mark (25:18):
free, there's a reason.
Todd (25:20):
What we're trying to really promote, I mean, what we
are in the end is we are reallya conservation movement, but
what we do it is, we call itconservation by consumption.
And so what we're trying to dois to really give these farmers
and these animals access tomarkets and to really to start
with the people that reallyappreciate the flavor and the
quality.
(25:40):
Like when you look at some ofthe pork and the pork that you
guys bring into stage left,mm-hmm.
When you look at it, it is adifferent.
Color.
Mm-hmm.
It,
Francis (25:46):
it literally looks like it because we buy some pork from
Heritage Foods.
You know, we, we buy a lot offood.
you guys do a great job for us.
And if there are, and there, Iknow there are restaurateurs
that listen to this show.
You can go to Heritage Foods,USA and contact these guys, uh,
to deal with them wholesale.
It's honestly, it's a little bitof work to deal with you guys
wholesale.
It's not as convenient as your,as your big purveyor.
Mm-hmm.
But, but you know, you're asmall company as well, and you,
and you work with us and,frankly, the quality of the
(26:07):
ingredients.
And look, you, you can't be inan expensive restaurant and deal
with you guys because you're
Mark (26:12):
more, the, the products are more expensive.
It's more expensive.
And, and that's what Todd justtold you.
He, his turkeys are.
Age for two years, or at leasttwice as long, some of'em, three
years before they're ready tocome to market and, and be
eaten.
Todd (26:26):
Well, if you think, I mean, our entire mission is to
increase revenues for smallfamily farmers, and so when we
talk about, you know, we're,we're asking chefs to pay more
money.
It's not So Patrick and Todd candrive around in Ferraris, right.
So that we can make sure thatall of this money is going back
to the farmers.
Mm-hmm.
Francis (26:41):
Well, here, here, let's, let's do a shameless
plug.
There was an article in the NewYork Times by Mar Marion Burrows
talking about your plight,which, which caused me to pick
up the phone and call you rightaway.
Right.
Um, it seems as though, and, andyou guys really are.
Committed to these farmers and,and bringing enough revenue to
the family farm in a sustainableway.
'cause the business has to besustainable as well.
Okay.
We're not just crunchy greens,we're crunchy greens and we're
businessmen as well.
(27:02):
you're caught in a bind herewith some of these turkeys.
Tell us what, what that's allabout.
Todd (27:06):
Well, again, as we just talked about, you know, with
these animals, uh, and with theturkeys in particular, it takes
a long time to raise theseturkeys and so.
This movement really started,you know, coincidentally with an
article that Marion Burrowswrote several years ago, kind of
talking about the plight ofthese birds.
And as a result of that, youknow, the first year we had no
idea what.
(27:26):
The demand would be.
And so we sold, I think it was700 birds.
Mm-hmm.
And then the next year wedoubled and went to 1500, and
then the next year we went toaround 3000.
And so this year, you know, wehad to tell the farmers in
January how many birds we needin November.
Sure.
For Thanksgiving.
You know, that's the normaltime.
I mean, that's part of why the,the Turkey became such a, you
(27:48):
know, a centerpiece forThanksgiving is that was the
time that they were normallyready.
Speaker 2 (27:53):
To be butcher
Todd (27:53):
size.
Speaker 2 (27:54):
Mm-hmm.
Todd (27:54):
To be eaten.
And so we had to make acommitment to these farmers in
January of this year.
So January of this year.
We said, okay, we need 6,000whole birds.
So during the course of theyear, we had a few
conversations.
Hold
Francis (28:05):
on just one second.
I want, this is a cliffhangerhere and we're gonna tell you
the rest of this story at theend.
'cause we have 6,000 birds.
We have a couple thousand birdsthere without a home, and they
need to be in your home Thebirds are delicious.
We're talking with ToddWickstrom.
He's the founder of HeritageFoods USA, which distributes
some of the finest of foodsustainable foods in America,
and you can get them deliveredto your home.
And, uh, we, we left off withyou telling us a story, Todd,
(28:26):
about how you committed to 6,000birds, uh, to get 6,000 birds of
these amazing turkeys, which aremuch better than anything you'll
find in a supermarket.
And you had some major buyerspull out on you.
Todd (28:37):
We did, and I, I mean, I don't think it's anything
necessarily against thosebuyers.
It's like the rest of thecorporate world works.
You know, there's a new bossthat comes in and they've got
numbers and targets that theyhave to hit.
And so the easiest thing to gowas the very expensive Turkey
that, you know, the buyer hadcommitted to earlier.
So
Francis (28:52):
no new bosses at
Mark (28:53):
stage left.
Todd, you're
Francis (28:54):
safe.
Mark (28:54):
Fantastic.
Francis (28:55):
Well, here's the, here's the deal.
What, what Todd was talkingabout earlier is that the way a,
a farmer works is we have to, afarmer has to plan well in
advance.
And so these guys committed tothe farmers.
In January to buy 6,000 birds.
And, and I I love this, your,your partner, um, Patrick Martin
said in the New York Times, hewas cod as saying, Mr.
Martin said in a telephoneinterview, in the end, we'll pay
(29:16):
the farmer.
Whether Todd and I have to giveup$30,000 of our own money,
whether I have to end up movingto Brooklyn instead of living in
Manhattan, the farmers will bepaid.
It's gonna put a bit of a stresson us.
Listen, everybody order thesebirds, they're more expensive.
They are extraordinarilydelicious.
Mark (29:30):
And don't just order them for the farmers.
Order'em for yourself.
They're better.
Good taste is revolutionary.
And are they different?
Yes, they're different.
The flavor profiles aredifferent.
It's real, they're much tastierand they're easier to cook.
The, the, the meat is a littlebit firmer on them than you're
gonna be used to.
'cause they haven't beeninjected with all those liquids.
Yep.
Uh, but the very rich, butthey're really, rich is a great
(29:52):
word to describe them.
And really delicious birds.
Francis (29:55):
And they're, and they're less likely to dry out
because they have the naturalfats that are, that are supposed
to be in poultry.
They're easier to cook, they'reharder to overcook, and they're
delicious.
Todd (30:03):
Absolutely.
And it's just a great gift togive to your friends and family.
I mean, to provide, you know,the centerpiece Thanksgiving is
the quintessential Americanholiday.
It sort of defies, you know,race and religion and ethnicity
and everything else.
And so, you know, it's just afantastic way.
There's not a lot everybody canafford our products week in and
week out.
It is very expensive because ofhow much we pay the farmers and
(30:23):
there's shipping that has to beon top of it.
We don't have efficientdistribution for these products.
Francis (30:27):
Mm-hmm.
Well, and, and, and listen,everybody, if you're paying 19
cents a pound for.
Bird.
Y you know that a farmer can'tmake a living on that of course,
because that means a farmer'sgetting 7 cents a pound and the
only way to grow meat at 7 centsa pound is to do some pretty
things.
Some things that you don't wantdone is defeated.
Things you don't want it fed.
Yes, exactly.
How's that?
Todd (30:44):
We happen to think there's a lot more at stake than just a
few turkeys.
You know, Daniel Webster, one ofthe, you know, Patriots of this
country said.
Years and years and years andyears ago, whatever that was,
200 plus years ago, to, youknow, he said, let us not forget
that the cultivation of theearth is the most important
labor of man, that when thetillage begins, the other arts
(31:05):
will follow.
Speaker 2 (31:06):
Mm-hmm.
Todd (31:06):
Therefore the farmers or the founders of civilization.
Speaker 2 (31:09):
Yep.
Todd (31:10):
And so if you think about that, and I happen to think
that's very true, what happenswhen we lose the farmers?
And what happens when we forgetwhat food is all about and we
really take food and what we'vedone in this country is made it
so cheap that it's lost all ofits value.
Francis (31:23):
Mm-hmm.
Did you know that in, in theseventies, the American
household used to spend themiddle class, American household
used to spend 50% of theirincome on food.
Now they spend less than 10% oftheir income on food, and that
seems like a good thing.
But you know what?
There's a downside to that aswell.
Todd (31:38):
Yeah, we spend less per capita as a percentage of our
income in the United States thanany other industrialized nation
in the world.
Francis (31:45):
And we also have some of the worst tasting food,
coincidentally, to be honestwith you.
Todd (31:49):
I just heard, I heard yesterday on a, uh, on a show
here in Michigan that the CensusBureau has just taking farming.
Off of the census as anoccupation because there was so
few of the small fish farmersleft.
Ah,
Mark (32:01):
tragic.
What a tragedy.
Uh, Todd, I wanna talk to youjust, just let's briefly touch
on another subject.
One of the, one of the issuesthat I, that I know your company
has, and stage left andCatherine Lombardi have, been
fortunate enough to be able touse whole animals is that most
of the people who can affordthis meat want the prime cuts
only.
Francis (32:20):
That has, and that has, we're talking about for larger
animals like lamb and pigs.
People want the loin and thenyou know the chops and that's
it.
But culturally, we've gottenaway from using the whole
animal.
Mm-hmm.
And so do you have a problemwith those secondary cuts?
Todd (32:33):
Uh, well, we, we have a problem with them up to a
certain point.
I think that, you know, what'shappening is that we're starting
to see a huge resurgence in thiscountry of, of chefs and
restaurateurs, much likeyourselves, who are realizing
that it's not enough.
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 (32:48):
Just to
Todd (32:48):
know how to cook, that you have sort of a social
responsibility to really careabout where your food comes from
and about.
Exactly sort of the plight thatyou guys are describing.
Right.
And so there's a lot of chefsright now around the country who
are starting to use more of the,you know, non-traditional cuts,
the cheek meat, the jowls, the,you know, we're in the process
right now.
(33:08):
We have just finished our lasttest batch yesterday, of
starting to sell the lard, uh,for these pig.
Oh, that's awesome.
Do you think that, you know, theflavor of pork really comes from
the fat?
Francis (33:18):
Listen, everybody.
If you go to Heritage Foods,USA, when you get your Turkey,
could save on the shipping andhave'em send you some lard
because lard in baking, if youfind old recipes where, you
know, they substituted Crisco,but if you use lard, especially
in pastry, oh my God, it's thesecret
Mark (33:33):
weapon.
Throw the Crisco away and startcooking with lard again, and you
will ne and everybody's gonnaask you why your, your pastries
and your baking is so good.
Yep.
Everybody will ask
Todd (33:42):
you best fried chicken in the world.
So large is a big part.
We're also working on developinga very, um.
Aggressive sausage makingcampaign where we're gonna take
a lot of these breeds and havesome rare breeds.
Specific, you know, red bottlepork, Italian sausage.
uh, Peter Kaminsky know has agreat book out right now called
Pig Perfect.
And he has a couple of things inthere where, you know, sort of
tongue in cheek starting a newcampaign to call pork, the other
(34:05):
red meat, not the other white.
And you
Francis (34:07):
know, actually you can use the tongue and the cheek of
a pig.
Do I get no laugh from eitherone of you on that one?
No.
That was hilarious because itwas horrible.
Okay.
He's the guest, he's gotta tellyou.
It was hilarious.
Oh my God.
I'm the co-host.
It
Mark (34:18):
was horrible.
Francis (34:19):
That's, I mean, the tongue in the cheek.
That was funny.
Okay.
I thought it was good.
You know, a leader in the, inthe, uh, and an inspiration in
American food.
I really blazed the trails ofusing what, what are secondary,
tertiary cuts meat.
Um, to great effect is MarioVitali.
Mm-hmm.
In his, in his version ofItalian cuisine and Italian
American cuisine, there are alot of secondary cuts of meat
that, you know what, anybody cancook a loin.
(34:41):
Yep.
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
Anybody can cook the loin, thetenderloin.
Okay.
But when you take the porkbutton, you make something nice
out of it.
And, and when you go to Babo inthe city, Mario Batali's places
you will find.
Wonderful dishes made fromcheeks and jowls.
Mark (34:54):
And, and the other thing you'll find is a lot of those
secondary and tertiary cuts ofmeat are the most flavorful cuts
in the, if you cook
Francis (35:00):
them.
Right.
And that's what takes your skillas a cook.
So if you're a home cook, youknow Yeah.
You know, great.
Okay.
You know how to grill a steak.
That's terrific.
Now let's get past the cutlet.
And when you talk about the slowcooking meat, when you talk
about, you know, the shank isthe first step, you know those
long cooking, like the ossobucoparts of things, but then you go
into the cuts of meat beyondthat.
That's where you can show yourskill.
That's where I'm impressed.
(35:21):
Hey, listen, Todd, I wanna saythanks for for joining us today.
Todd (35:23):
Absolutely.
Well, thanks so much.
One last thing on using thepiece is make sure that if you
do order the heritage Turkey,don't throw away the carcass.
You'll have the best tastingsoups when you use that to make
absolutely the best.
Francis (35:33):
Absolutely.
Todd (35:34):
Excellent.
Well, heritage foods usa.com.
And uh, mark and Francis, Ireally appreciate all of your
support.
Francis (35:39):
No problem.
You're the bomb man.
Thanks Todd.
Keep up the good work.
Todd (35:42):
Thanks.
Francis (35:42):
Bye-bye.
Take care.
You're listening to theRestaurant Guys, you know, we
(36:15):
are not really getting anyadvertising revenue from these
guys.
There's no sponsorship.
Uh, we just believe in whatthey're doing.
Heritage Foods USA is thewebsite.
You can get there throughrestaurant guys radio.com,
Listen, these turkeys aren'tcheap.
But if you think about, and weonly think of them as not cheap
because it's 19 cents a pound iswhat we're comparing them to,
right?
Um, you know, think of it as ameal.
If you're feeding 20 people andyou spend, you're spending a
(36:36):
dollar or two a person.
That's not really a lot,
Mark (36:39):
right?
You know, well, some of theseturkeys are, you know, you can,
you, they're coming in aroundnine,$10 a pound.
That's, that's what you're gonnaspend, including shipping for a
heritage Turkey.
And unfortunately, about half ofit is, is shipping.
In order to get these birds toyou first, it's totally worth
it.
Totally
Francis (36:54):
worth it.
Totally worth, I'm sorry.
Totally.
It's a holiday meal.
Totally worth it.
And one of the other things wetalked about is this company,
when you're on that website,bang around, they, that's a, a
lot of the stuff we talk aboutis available on their website.
Mm-hmm.
And as a restaurant, and one ofthe reasons I think that
restaurants play an importantrole is'cause you can't buy a
whole pig at home.
Mm-hmm.
What are you gonna do with it?
Right.
You know, what are you gonna dowith that?
Mark (37:12):
Well, I.
I'm really excited that we justopened this restaurant cabinet.
Francis (37:16):
I mean, you could keep it in your backyard until you
killed it.
But then Captain
Mark (37:17):
Lombardi, who was, who was my grandmother?
Mm-hmm.
Uh, we just opened thisrestaurant that's, that's named
after her.
And what did she do back inBrooklyn in the, in the forties
and fifties?
My grandmother, what she wasdoing was she would buy these,
these tertiary cuts and these,these secondary cuts and make
some of the most flavorful.
Food that you've ever had inyour life.
(37:37):
Right.
The bra jo was not made ofTenderloin and I feel really
good about being able to, buythese whole pigs and be able to
use all the cuts and be able touse all, these secondary cuts,
which frankly are I think aremore flavorful than than.
A lot of the primary cuts that,that we eat on a day-to-day
basis and make our own homemadesausage out of'em and, and put
(37:59):
that sausage in the lasagna usethe shoulder for the bra.
I just think that those flavorsare tremendous and it, and it's
great to be able to be at thesame time supporting a family
farmer who's, who's trying to dosomething, which unfortunately.
Has has fallen out of the norm.
Yeah.
And, agribusinesses has takenover all those farms and we
(38:19):
want, we want some of thosefarms to come back and frankly,
I would rather eat,'cause thefood's better.
'cause food's better.
If, if that's your only reason.
'cause it tastes better.
I'm totally fine with that.
Francis (38:27):
And frankly, on a budget I'd rather eat.
You're better off on healthwise, eco economics wise.
Mm-hmm.
Eat meat three times a week andeat great meat three times a
week.
Mm-hmm.
Rather than eating, you know.
Mediocre meat five nights aweek.
There's our advice from therestaurant guys.
Good taste is revolutionary.
Do well by doing good.
I'm Francis Shot.
And I'm Mark Pascal.
We are the restaurant guys,central Jersey 1450.
The time is 12 noon.
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