September 12, 2025 • 43 mins
Balsamic vinegar ... but not as you know it. Let's uncover the centuries-old process behind this iconic Italian treasure. Discover why it’s a must-try for food lovers, how to spot the real deal, and delicious ways to enjoy authentic balsamic vinegar on your next travel adventure in Italy.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
What Italian food product is described as black gold. This
delicious luxury condiment can be served with cheese or gelato,
and it's only made in a very small area near
the city of Moderna. Listen on to discover why traditional
balsamic vinegar of Modna is nothing like the balsamic vinegar
most of us know.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Chawatooti and Benvenuti Tuan Told Italy The travel podcast to
where you go to the towns and villages, mountains and lakes,
hills and coastlines of Bela, Italia. Each week, your host
Katie Clark takes you on a journey in a search
of magical landscapes, history, culture, wine, gelato, and of course,
(00:49):
a whole lot of pasta. If you're dreaming of Italy
and planning future adventures there, you've come to the right place.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
Dreaming of arriving in Italy, strolling into a gelatia and
ordering your gelato with confidence. If you've been learning Italian
with language apps but still can't string a sentence together,
it might be time to try another approach. My friend
Michelle from Intrepid Italian offers a practical way to learn
travel ready Italian thanks to her unique eighty twenty method.
(01:27):
Michelle teaches you exactly what you need to know to
connect with locals and have more authentic travel experiences. There's
no getting bogged down in awkward phrases and unnecessary grammar.
As an adult learner herself with Italian heritage, Michelle really
knows how to bridge the gap between English and Italian.
As Roma from London said, the learning methodology is great.
(01:51):
I progressed much faster in the last four weeks than
I ever did on my own or using other language apps.
To find out more and claim you're free Italian travel
phrase guide, visit untold Italy dot com, forward slash Italian
or visit the link in the show notes. As a bonus,
you'll also get an exclusive twenty dollars coupon code to
use on any of Michelle's online self paced courses. So
(02:14):
visit untold Italy dot com, forward slash Italian and accelerate
your Italian language of journey. Today, Well, JOHNO, welcome friends.
Today we're going deep into the Amelia region to discuss
one of my favorite Italian food products. But first today
is a very special milestone and a milestone episode because
(02:35):
I was just checking through some statistics on the podcast
and realized that we've now crossed a very big threshold.
Speaker 3 (02:41):
Drum roll please.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
So far there have been over five million listens of
the Untold Itly podcast episodes. Wow, that's a mind blowing
number and in fact a lot of people listening to
my voice over many hours and many years. And I
really appreciate you all tuning in and supporting the show. Gratzier,
thank you. I know many of you have been listening
(03:04):
to the Untold Italy podcast for many, many years, and
I so appreciate it and all the lovely messages you've
set through over the years from all corners and continents
of the earth, even from India, South Korea and South Africa.
It's truly amazing. We've come a long way since our
first episode in twenty twenty, and never could I have
imagined back then that I would be recording our two
(03:26):
hundred and ninetieth episode. There's been a lot of water
under the bridge, lots of growth and learning and changes,
and now we even have an app where all the
podcasts can be searched by topic and heard ad free.
It's all part of our goal to help you enjoy
your time in Italy. And seek out those hidden and
special moments that keep you dreaming of your time there
(03:46):
after many many moons have passed.
Speaker 3 (03:49):
Now this episode was not.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Planned when I knew about this celebration, but in fact
our guest today represents exactly what Untold Italy is all about.
Speaker 3 (03:58):
My beautiful friend and colleague, Julia Tami.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
Is back on the show to share one of the
most uniquely Italian products that comes from the town where
she lives. Part of my mission here at Untold Italy
is not only to surface lesser known places and experiences
beyond the main tourist paths, but also to shine a
light on talented Italian women that I've met along the way.
Italy is a very traditional country where women have to
(04:22):
fight that much harder to have their voices heard. This
is compounded by the fact that most discussions about Italy
and Italians that we hear or see in the English
language media, including Untold Italy, is predominantly fed by people
who aren't Italian. And I really believe that we should
hear a diversity of voices about all topics, but that
(04:44):
it's especially important to hear from local people in the
places that we visit. So it's my absolute pleasure to
welcome Julia back onto the show today to tell you
all about the magic that is traditional balsamic vinegar of Moderna.
Speaker 3 (04:59):
Ben to Nat Julia.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
Welcome back to the Untold Italy podcast, my dear friendow Katie.
Speaker 4 (05:05):
I'm so excited.
Speaker 5 (05:07):
Yes, I am back, and I am actually excited to
share a little bit about my area with you all.
Speaker 3 (05:15):
It's been a long time. I think it's been about
years since you've been on the podcast. Julia. That's way
too long.
Speaker 4 (05:21):
Yeah, I think, actually, Katie. Yeah, it was maybe a year.
Speaker 5 (05:23):
Ago, and it was just after I finished the Parmelia
course because if you remember, it was about the parana
topic and there was with my teacher back then.
Speaker 4 (05:35):
So yeah, one year ago. Time flies.
Speaker 3 (05:38):
Oh my goodness, that was a great episode.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
Everyone should go back and listen to that one because
it was fantastic. And now Julia does come from the
amazing area of Amelia, Romagna, which is the home of
Parmigiano Reggiano and also the topic that we're talking about today,
which is traditional balsamic vinegar of Moderna. Julia, I know
you very well, but maybe some of our listeners don't
(06:03):
know you.
Speaker 3 (06:03):
So well, but could you please introduce yourself to everyone.
Speaker 5 (06:07):
Yes, of course, my name is Julia and I am
based in a Milla, Romagnia.
Speaker 4 (06:14):
I work for Katie on the Ialy.
Speaker 5 (06:17):
TOURSA, but I also have my little baby project which
is called the Travel with Resdora, and I offer toursa
of my I would say neighborhood area, which is the
area between Moderna and Bologna, so I really specialize in
the unknown parts around.
Speaker 4 (06:38):
These two cities.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
Mainly, Julia is an excellent guide of her area because
she's so passionate about it, and she's also a food
ambassador for them too, because she's an absolute joy and
a legend in her area. And anyone that has been
on tour with Julia just knows how very special she is.
(06:59):
We're very like to have her on the Untold Italy team,
and I wanted to get Julia on the call today
to talk about balzam and vinegar because I think, you know,
it's got a bit of an interesting reputation in English
speaking countries, and it's probably a little bit sad because
it's not what you think. Yeah, everyone thinks it's that
(07:22):
bottle that you squired on a salad but this is
a condiment that is steeped in tradition and it's got
a beautiful history and the process to make the traditional
balsamik vinegar of moderna is very very special, Julia, can
you give us a little bit of a background into
balsamic vinegar and the history.
Speaker 5 (07:44):
Well, Katie, the funny part is that it's not only
misunderstood by people not from Italy, but also by people
from Italy itself.
Speaker 4 (07:55):
Oh no, because it's.
Speaker 5 (07:57):
Special about it. It's that a traditional balsamic vinegar. It's
so rare. And I will explain later why it's so
rare that even people from Bologna don't know it as much, okay,
or people from other regions.
Speaker 4 (08:16):
This is just crazy because.
Speaker 5 (08:19):
Traditional balsamic vinegar is made only and absolute only in
the modern area.
Speaker 4 (08:26):
So only in this piece of land.
Speaker 5 (08:29):
Which is exactly where I live. We keep this traditional life.
And I was just mentioning that traditional balsamic vinegar is rare.
And actually it's the question that I always ask to
the people I make them taste. Have you ever tried
a food that is at least twelve years? All? The
(08:50):
answer is what twelve years or months? J did you
make a mistake and I'm like no, no, no, no, no,
I'm serious. We're talking about okay, and I'm saying minimum
twelve year stateies.
Speaker 4 (09:03):
So this is why obviously it's very unique.
Speaker 5 (09:08):
Most people also in Italy think of balsamic vinegar not
as traditional balsamic vinegar. And I know it might sound confusing,
but also on restaurants, on restaurant table, you would actually
mainly find what's called balsamico, which is what we call
igp balsamico. We are talking about something different today, which
(09:32):
is the doop or pdo in English.
Speaker 4 (09:36):
Traditional balsamic vinegar.
Speaker 5 (09:38):
So make sure that you go for that big world traditional.
Speaker 4 (09:43):
I know it's confusing, but can I just explain what
is mainly the difference right right? Well, first of all,
the taste and the consistency.
Speaker 5 (09:56):
The very first time you will try to traditional bas
and vinegar, you won't go back, okay. In one of
the podcasts, I was talking about the famous ricotta coming
from the Parmesan reg John. It's like a never not
a coming back thine, you know after you tried that,
like okay, bye, you know that's the best ever. Sorry,
(10:17):
I don't want to sound big headed, Katie here, but
we always call.
Speaker 4 (10:21):
Midia Romagnia, the food the land.
Speaker 5 (10:23):
Okay, So for all the food is listening to us,
Please trust Julia on this one. Come and try the
tradition basamon vinegar. So basically basamic vinegar takes at least
twelve years to be made, up to twenty five years, okay.
And obviously the taste is completely different and the consistency.
(10:47):
We actually nickname it the black gold of modern.
Speaker 4 (10:52):
The beauty of.
Speaker 5 (10:53):
It is like when you taste wine, you know, So
it's actually coming from grapes.
Speaker 4 (10:59):
So what the only one.
Speaker 5 (11:01):
And only ingredient of traditional balsamach is cooked must the
cooked mast of grapes. So in modern if you have
a vineyard, you go two ways. What do I do
with my grapes? Do I go the pass of wine
of vino and obviously my area made it rambrusco, or
do I go the path of traditional balsamic vinegar?
Speaker 4 (11:22):
Okay?
Speaker 5 (11:22):
So those they select the cooked juice of the grapes.
And there is a very special moment when we cook
this mast grape mast, which is October.
Speaker 4 (11:35):
So in October because obviously it follows the season.
Speaker 5 (11:38):
Also, if you ever come to my village, which is
called Spilamberto the very first weekend of October. Katie, you
would actually be able to attend our past media expression Christmas.
It's funny because every village in Italy as a special farer.
Speaker 4 (11:57):
We ins Spilamberto.
Speaker 5 (11:58):
We have two special fairs, one about the balsamic vinegar,
which I'm gonna tell you, and another.
Speaker 4 (12:04):
One which is called the San Jovanni, our Sant John's.
Speaker 5 (12:07):
And we also have other traditions. We have loads of traditions.
But let me go back to the very first weekend.
So that's when we cook the grape must. And what
do we do with this grape must? We put it
into our set of barrels. Now, it's a little bit complicated.
So let's pretend that Katie, you win a set of barrels. Okay,
(12:31):
so we start from scratch this year.
Speaker 4 (12:34):
What do we do? So, first of all, this.
Speaker 5 (12:36):
Set of barrels is called batteria, and normally a batteria
has got minimum five barrels.
Speaker 4 (12:44):
Okay.
Speaker 5 (12:45):
Those five barrels are normally made of different types of wood,
because each wood would give a special flavor into the product.
Normally wood made for them is okay, chestnut, mulberry, juniper.
Speaker 4 (13:05):
I mean these are the normal woods.
Speaker 5 (13:08):
If you went crazy, and many people do that too,
they say, Okay, you know what, I really love cherry wood.
I really like the flavor of cherries. So they might
have a set of barrels made of only cherries, or
maybe you like more of a herbal and balsamic tastes,
(13:29):
so you would only get the juniper one, which.
Speaker 4 (13:32):
Is very hard to get, isn't it.
Speaker 5 (13:34):
And actually, if you ever taste the traditional made of
only one better, you do feel the difference so much
because it's completely different. Personally, Katie, I really love the
cherry one because I am a little bit of a
sweet tooth and I love cherries, so obviously having a
traditional balsamich made of that, it's so different, you really
(13:57):
feel it.
Speaker 3 (13:58):
We will return in a mind with the rest of
the episode.
Speaker 5 (14:06):
And so basically going back. So Katie won a set
of barrels. So this year, me and Katie go and
cook the grape mast. Then what do we do with
this grape mast? We fill all the five barrels and
for at least twelve years, So for twelve years we
don't taste anything.
Speaker 4 (14:26):
We just work. When I have kids. I'm like, how
old are you? Oh, I'm seven. Okay, you are not
even a bottle of traditional balsomach. You know. For twelve years,
we cannot catch it.
Speaker 5 (14:37):
And what we do is the juice evaporates and the
small less barrel is the only one where we take
the liquid out from okay, with all the other four
before this one we have to refill. So you put
the liquid from the fifth to the fourth, from the
(14:59):
flour to the third and so on, and you fill
with the grape juice the fifth one.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
Yeah, so it just gets more concentrated, doesn't it as
it goes on. So they're doing cooking some grape juice,
and then they reduce it, and then they're adding some more,
and then.
Speaker 3 (15:17):
They reduce it.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
And so by the time that we get to the
end of the twelve years, then it becomes very thick.
Speaker 4 (15:25):
Very sick.
Speaker 5 (15:26):
And this is what we call the tradition of Assami vinegar.
But obviously our tradition has been so long that we
go over the twelve years, so we also have what
we call extra vacuum, which is minimum twenty five years,
and that's also even more different than the twelve So
(15:48):
normally we do this kind of tasting. We try the twelve,
which we try the twenty five, and then we try
the different barrels. So, because as I was saying, you
can even think of doing a battle of only just
one type of wood.
Speaker 4 (16:03):
It's incredible.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
Yeah, it's a beautiful thing to say, like a batteria
at a place where they make the Balsama vinegar. And
I don't just have one set of barrels. They have many,
many sets of barrels, don't they. And they do experiments
on the different types of wood and the different aging processes.
It's so interesting.
Speaker 4 (16:24):
It's our life, Katie, and I'm not joking about it.
Speaker 5 (16:27):
So one of the things that I should mention is
that in my area, we have a specific food.
Speaker 4 (16:34):
Product in each town.
Speaker 5 (16:36):
So in my town's Pilamberto, we are the town famous
for the traditional Basadonic vinegar because we have what we
call the consort area, the consortium, and Katy, you know
it very well. We also visited during the Antol Italy tour.
Because I like to joke about this because well, first
of all, they are amazing.
Speaker 4 (16:56):
They are the members of this consortium.
Speaker 5 (16:59):
Are ex extremely passionate obviously about the product and their
mission is to keep this traditional life. But not only
they want to keep the authenticity of the production because
as I was mentioning before, the traditional one is what
we call a PDIO product. So there is a disciplinary
(17:20):
that has been actually recognized by the European Union in
two thousand that tells you exactly about the rules about
this product. So there is actually a body that tells
you if you can bottle that traditional basami vinegar. It's
something very strict, very very very serious. It's very hard
(17:41):
to have the PDIO or recognition KATI as we know
this consortium. So there are many passionate people, but there
are also many volunteers and that I feel like they
are my uncles because you know, they live the consorting
it's five hundred meters from my little flat, and they
are there every day. There are these volunteers that the
(18:04):
age range is the seventies eighties, okay, and they are
there every day in the lab to check the acidity levels,
the sugar levels for a product that takes at least
twelve years but not they have to check every day.
You know, they're amazing, They're amazing. And plus there is
(18:26):
the Grand Master, So there are many masters that obviously
look after their set of barrels.
Speaker 4 (18:32):
And then there is the grand Master of.
Speaker 5 (18:34):
Balsamach and by Joe, I say, the Pope of traditional
basamic vinegar.
Speaker 4 (18:39):
I hope they don't listen to this, Katie, because I
don't like that. But yeah, and.
Speaker 5 (18:44):
Yeah, basically they really do a great job in talking
about the product in you know, keeping it alive.
Speaker 4 (18:51):
Because what happens is, Okay, we have the consortium.
Speaker 5 (18:55):
But we have all the families as well in my
area that keep this traditional life.
Speaker 4 (19:01):
It's very very special that each family.
Speaker 5 (19:04):
As their set of burrows, even if they're not a
big producer, every family has a set of barrels there
and they have to get a check.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
This is the one thing that I didn't really understand
until I went to spilamberto is that if you want
to bottle your traditional balsamic vinegar, you have to get
it approved. Like Julia said, you can't just go ahead
and bottle this thing, but you can call it something else,
but you can't call it traditional balsamic vinegar of moderna.
(19:33):
We do go to another producer and he actually told us,
you know, has been rejected and he's had to go
back and rebalance everything. And it's a big deal, isn't it,
Because you're not getting very many bottles out every year
because it's so concentrated. So if you make a mistake
or something, it's a big problem.
Speaker 4 (19:52):
It's a big problem.
Speaker 5 (19:53):
And actually, as I was saying, many families have they're
all or if not, maybe a couple of because in
the past, what happened was it would be the dowry,
so when women would get married, they would bring this
as a dowry. Nowadays we also give a set when
(20:13):
a baby is born. It's so nice, isn't it, Katie.
So for example, my best friend, she has got two daughters,
so their grandfather as god, his own private, his own,
and then he made one for my friend, and then
it made and they made two for my friend's daughters.
(20:34):
You know, So in their families they've got four set
of barrels. And they was doing a competition. And normally
when we meet at Christmas, because I always go and
meet them, we always have the tasting.
Speaker 4 (20:46):
Oh what is the best? How it shag?
Speaker 5 (20:49):
It's also a family thing, you know, because it's so
it's so in our blood. If I would say, you know, unfortunately, Katie,
I don't have my barrel.
Speaker 4 (20:59):
You know why.
Speaker 5 (21:00):
Because my dad is from Bologna and my mom also
is from Bologna. So basically it wasn't their tradition. And
it's funny because if you check on the map, Bologna
and Moderna are only thirty kilometers apart. And that's why
I was saying, in Bologna they don't know it. Well,
it's not that they don't know it, but they don't
use it as much, you know, because it's some modern
(21:21):
A thing. You know.
Speaker 4 (21:22):
It's crazy.
Speaker 1 (21:24):
Yeah, it's so interesting how hyper local this is. Like,
you can't exaggerate this because, like Julia said, it's only
thirty kilometers and you know, it's not very It's.
Speaker 3 (21:36):
Like a pretty flat land in between, isn't it.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
Like, So I don't know, they're just doing their own
thing in Moderna and around Spilmberto, and it's a really
beautiful tradition and it's very much worth seeking out.
Speaker 3 (21:49):
So, Julie, can you explain to everyone what.
Speaker 1 (21:52):
Is the taste of this traditional balsami vinegar of Moderna?
Speaker 4 (21:57):
So imagine our sick consistency.
Speaker 5 (22:01):
And you would feel sweet and sour at the same time,
and it's the equilibrium between the two.
Speaker 4 (22:10):
I would say that the twenty five.
Speaker 5 (22:12):
Years old is what we call more harmonious as a taste,
because obviously it has got more time in contact with
these types of wood, and each wood would give an aroma. Again,
it's a very complex taste. And this complex taste goes
(22:32):
well with most things.
Speaker 4 (22:35):
I was asked how we use it.
Speaker 5 (22:38):
You would use this to enhance any type of food
apart from coffee maybe, and anything.
Speaker 4 (22:46):
En enhanced by traditional balsami vinegar.
Speaker 5 (22:50):
And if you're lucky, you are coming from modern and
you could actually use this black gold also on most
common things. So for example, imagine you are making an
onion frittata an omelet shoot drops of traditional balsamach.
Speaker 4 (23:10):
This brings you that onion frittata. Boom to heaven. But
boom it.
Speaker 5 (23:16):
Comes immediately, you know, something heavenly, you know, because it
gives you such a more complex taste. And as I said,
it can also be something very simple. You know, you
because you really only need a couple of drops. That's
another thing. When we call it black gold, it's not
(23:37):
by chance. It's really you need very very little. And Katie,
you know, you know this so well. We even put
it on gelato.
Speaker 3 (23:45):
Yes, that was delicious.
Speaker 4 (23:48):
Isn't it, Katie?
Speaker 5 (23:48):
I know you are, you are very passionate about it.
So even on gelato, would you ever think of trying
to put traditionals and vinegar well in modern and we
do that. So think of a body nice crema gerato
it changes it completely, or even on strawberries, amazing obviously
(24:08):
on risotto, on meat, there are many, many different ways.
Obviously on tortellini, and you know how passionate I am
about tortellini, Like tortellinia la pana, well obviously not in broth,
but tortellini la pana.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
That's the dish you have to try when you're in
the area. It's the absolutely best. It is so amazing.
Speaker 3 (24:30):
You've got everything in that dish from that area.
Speaker 1 (24:33):
You've got pasta, you have prosciutto, you have pagano, and
you have basamika. It's like it is like the culmination
of everything modern asa, isn't it.
Speaker 4 (24:44):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (24:45):
Ah, well, absolutely, it's a feast. It's a feast that
has to be tried. Obviously, we do also have lighter
things to it. If you're worried that we would fill
you with. But you know that's our special if we
like the rich food, like we love this kind of
like super tasty, you know, and the other thing is
(25:07):
all handmade. And really it's like this, we are very picky,
very very picky, so if it's not made properly, we
won't even offer it at all, like because we are
used to have the best. The best also involves time.
(25:29):
Actually I mentioned before there is only one ingredient in
the traditional basami vinegar.
Speaker 4 (25:35):
Well, yeah, of course it's the great mask.
Speaker 5 (25:37):
But think about the technique, the patience, the time. I mean,
thinking about all the elements that go into this product,
even the barrels. It's crazy how the coopers make the barrel.
It's a very shared product by many many hearts. So
you know we always say passion into it, but think
(25:59):
of all the hearts that are in that bottle.
Speaker 4 (26:02):
You know, it's crazy.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
And it's quite expensive, like I mean, it's not like
it's not the seven dollars one you get at the supermarket,
because that is it's a totally different taste and that's
very acidic and you usually use it on salads and
things like that, and you know, you can get some
very delicious balsamic vinegars that are made that way, which
(26:25):
you can find still in around modern too, and it's
a very interesting process.
Speaker 3 (26:30):
And on the tour we go to a nash Attire.
Speaker 1 (26:33):
Which is what they call the people that make the
balsomic vinegar, and they're doing a lot of experimental things
with different woods and aging processes, and it's it's very
interesting to see that tradition versus the modern interpretation of
basomic vinegar.
Speaker 3 (26:50):
But it's all good, right, it's all delicious.
Speaker 5 (26:53):
Yeah, yeah, there is also very good something vinegar. So
that's why it's a little bit confusing because the traditional
vinegar is the one we just spoke about. Then there
is IGP balsamic vinegar, which is the one that doesn't
only have one ingredient because they could add other things too,
can also be very well made, So that's IGP okay.
(27:18):
I would actually challenge everyone listening to check when they
are at the supermarket or check what they have at all,
to make sure that they read what type of basamic
vinegar they have, because very very commonly is the IGP one. Okay,
So there are all obviously different standards of this IGP.
(27:40):
It could be very good and the actualia we're visiting.
They do excellent IGP. But to be honest, Kater, there
is also horrible. There is stuff that is basically black
water with lots of sugar. What's really horrible to me, sorry, Katie,
is the.
Speaker 3 (28:01):
Time for a quick break shorter than your morning espresso.
Speaker 1 (28:09):
Yes, they try and make that sound like it's traditional bazami,
but it's just chock full of sugar. And that's the
one that they squirt all over plates, isn't it.
Speaker 4 (28:20):
Yes, that's horrible, and I see that everywhere.
Speaker 5 (28:24):
Because obviously when we do tours outside of my area,
I'm like, okay, please don't think that's that's something.
Speaker 4 (28:30):
Please please please do me this favor.
Speaker 5 (28:32):
You know, you know, Katie, how they call me the
balsamic police.
Speaker 4 (28:38):
I'm sorry. I am very passionate about it.
Speaker 5 (28:40):
And I don't make I am proud to be an ambassador,
but I'm not the expert. Okay, So please come and
meet the expert that make it. And if you speak
to them, it's like you're talking about their mother.
Speaker 4 (28:53):
It's like, oh my god, untouchable. You know, It's so funny.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
I have been to the Consortium and they are very
very serious. People, and you know, you go up into
their room where they have their barrels, and it's very
interesting because it's actually quite humid up there, isn't it. It
gets quite warm, and you know, I think it helps
with the evaporation process. But when I walked in there,
I was quite shocked and my eyes got drawn to
(29:18):
one set of barrels, didn't they? And I said, is
that what I think it is? And they said, uh huh.
And so if you're a big foodie and you know
about the area of Moderna where Julia's from, you know
that there's a very famous chef from that area and
his name is Massimo Butura, and he's probably one of
(29:39):
the most famous chefs in Italy. And I noticed that
there was a like they have an embroidered cloth over
the hole of the barrel and it said Osteria Franciscana,
which is his famous, very famous restaurant in the area.
And I said, do you have the bazza vitigar for
Ostia Franciscana And they said, yes, we do, and you know,
(30:02):
it's managed under very strict conditions there. So it's really
worth going to visit the consortium and visit spilamberto because
of this tradition, but also it's a super cute little town.
I've got to say, it's like it's a little little
castle thing happening and little turret.
Speaker 4 (30:21):
Yeah, it's lovely.
Speaker 5 (30:22):
It's very off the beaten path because unfortunately not many
people take the time to visit these little towns, you know,
And I think it's the beauty of Italy that of
course you need to visit the big cities, of course,
but you know, there is so much beauty just around
the corner that maybe it's a little bit less successible.
Speaker 4 (30:41):
But I would suggest everyone to take the time to
do explore us.
Speaker 5 (30:46):
And by the way, Katie, you are so right about
that humidity and heat, but actually there is a reason
behind it, and you just mentioned about the Arctic and
it's actually where we keep the material set of bar
because we actually need this wide temperature variation throughout the
day but also the season because obviously you need the
(31:09):
a million heat and trust me, it's not very pleasant.
So I would have to come in July and August
because it's really hot. Okay, So it actually this product
really needs this heat because it helps the fermentation process.
But also on the other side, it needs the cold
(31:29):
for the decounting, so you need to have.
Speaker 4 (31:33):
These big peaks of temperature.
Speaker 5 (31:35):
And this is why it's the area of modern and
only because in this area we have this type of climate.
In the attic, they can't have air conditioning. So please
don't be surprised that if you ever come to meet us,
we make you experience the humidity.
Speaker 4 (31:51):
I know it's not pleasant, but it's.
Speaker 5 (31:53):
Not because we are mean people and we don't have
air cons it's actually because of the product.
Speaker 1 (32:00):
The thing that I remembered about the balsamic vinegar is
that it comes the traditional balsamic vinegar, is that it
comes in a very special bottle as well, doesn't it exactly?
Speaker 4 (32:09):
And by the way, Katie, you know that the Italians
are big.
Speaker 5 (32:12):
On design, and obviously could it be a normal bottle,
of course not, no, of course not. This bottle has
been designed by Jiu Jittu Jiujaro, who is a car designer.
But look at that if you pay him well enough,
if you also design the bottle, and so basically there
(32:32):
is this very special bottle and this is what you
need to look for. If it's not bottled in that
it's fake and unfortunately, and I actually I must say
this and this is why I am the traditional balsamic police.
Please please, please don't be fooled by people, because there
(32:53):
are many chick people that do this that tell you.
Speaker 4 (32:56):
Is traditional basamic vinegar. It cannot be sold if not
in that bottle.
Speaker 5 (33:01):
So you's immediately it's the distinct thing that you would
recognize straight away.
Speaker 1 (33:08):
It's kind of round, but it's got straight edges on
the side as well. What we'll do is we'll find
a picture and we'll put it in the show notes, so.
Speaker 4 (33:15):
Everyone can say that good idea.
Speaker 3 (33:17):
Yeah, it's a very special bottle.
Speaker 1 (33:19):
Is there any particular brands that maybe people could look
for or like companies.
Speaker 4 (33:25):
Thinking about traditional vinegar?
Speaker 5 (33:27):
I wouldn't say we can really talk about brands because
it's all linked to families.
Speaker 4 (33:33):
Obviously, there are.
Speaker 5 (33:35):
Producers that are obviously they have a bigger production.
Speaker 4 (33:39):
But you don't really have so many many many bottles. Well,
one big name in my area is of course Sereni.
They do amazing traditional basai vinegar and basami vinegar. Or
maybe one that you have heard.
Speaker 5 (33:53):
Is also Justing is quite famous as well. There is
one called Leonardi. Obviously these are names, but the beauty
is also checking out these smaller artisans. Okay, so I
would say maybe they are more widespread, of course, and
do try them. It's like wine, you know, try obviously
(34:15):
different ones. So you could do the same with traditional
balsami vinegar, and the beauty is also going to little families.
Speaker 4 (34:21):
To try their their own. You know, if you.
Speaker 5 (34:24):
Start becoming passionate. It's really like tasting wine. It's exactly
the same because every family puts their touch.
Speaker 4 (34:32):
That's the beauty and.
Speaker 3 (34:34):
The other thing.
Speaker 1 (34:35):
When you were just saying that, Julia, I was thinking, like,
people might think that it's alcoholic, but it's not, is
it because they don't add sugar?
Speaker 5 (34:41):
No, no, no, it's as I said, only one ingredient. So
it's natural sugar, no alcohol not because it's all natural fermentation.
Speaker 4 (34:52):
So literally it's also very healthy.
Speaker 1 (34:55):
Do you think it's very I mean you think I
visit a lot of doesn't make vinegar producers in the area.
But if you really want to understand and have a
good experience of the whole tradition of this amazing product
actually is to go to Spilamberto and go to the
consortium there. They've got a lovely museum there and they
(35:17):
will take you through and then you can see the
butteria up there as well. It's a really interesting experience.
And we took the kids, didn't we And then they
had their gelato with their traditional balsamic vinegar on top,
and they loved it.
Speaker 3 (35:30):
And in fact, my son is absolutely obsessed by.
Speaker 1 (35:32):
This concept, so he's a little bit of Modernay in
his heart, Mysa. So yeah, it is a very fascinating
and ancient. It's been going for hundreds of years, hasn't it, Julia.
Speaker 4 (35:46):
Hundreds of yeers.
Speaker 5 (35:47):
Actually, when I was talking about the modern area, we
have got written pieces about the traditional balsamic vinegar from
the sixteen hundred. That's when the Aste family was in
power in moderna DS. They were like the Medici for
the modernas and all.
Speaker 4 (36:05):
And the very very.
Speaker 5 (36:06):
Very first definition appeared in the mid seventeen hundred, just
before Napoleon came to steal all the Basavan vinegar. Actually
you know what he did, Katie.
Speaker 4 (36:16):
It was beat me in Napoleon, you know, we know
that very well.
Speaker 5 (36:20):
So basically when he arrived, he auctioned the Duke of
Veste vinegar but Ta da Daan again, the proud nobles
and bourgeois of Moderna bought the barrels and so they
kept the traditional life.
Speaker 4 (36:39):
So it actually got preserved.
Speaker 5 (36:42):
So with the decline of Napoleon, they asked the family
took over again. And actually what happened was in the
early eighteen hundred there was a very famous prince that
came to Moderna and what they did was to make
sure that he could taste the finest.
Speaker 4 (36:59):
They start did what we call the palior.
Speaker 5 (37:02):
Maybe you know this world parlor because you think of
Siena Plu, the Sienna, but we also have a palio
of balsamic vinegar in modern So from the eighteen hundred
we have got those lots of written letters about how
to make the best traditional balsamic.
Speaker 4 (37:20):
Vinegar, you know.
Speaker 5 (37:21):
So there was a lot of will to create again
this super fine product.
Speaker 1 (37:26):
There's a lot of tradition and passion behind this product.
It's a very unique product from Italy and it's really
got a lovely family and community history behind it.
Speaker 3 (37:39):
If you join us in.
Speaker 1 (37:42):
Bologna or our tour Amilia, you get to go to
the consortium and meet the people there, and if you're
very lucky, you might meet the grand Master like I did,
and you also go and you try some different ones,
so you have that real local experience and it's really
really love Julia, thank you.
Speaker 3 (38:01):
That was really fantastic. Now I love talking about bas
Iman Vinegar. I could talk about it for a lot longer.
Speaker 1 (38:08):
But if anyone wanted to get in touch with you,
and if you're around to take you on little visit
round Spillam Better and your area, how could they get
in touch with you?
Speaker 5 (38:18):
You could go onto my website ww dot travel with
Redsdora dot com. I should spell Redsdora because it's a
very difficult word, Katie, so it's r e z d
o r a dot com. And actually Resdora actually is
(38:40):
a dialect board from my area, which actually means the
women leaders of.
Speaker 4 (38:46):
The kitchens and of the house.
Speaker 5 (38:49):
Okay, so not because I feel I am a leader
of the kitchen because I don't really cook very well myself,
but I like to think of myself as the Resdora
of traveling. So the res door are the creators of
this amazing food, you know, so think about the totaline,
or they go and hand pick the best prosuret to
the best barmizan or the best nutmeg and so.
Speaker 4 (39:08):
On to make the food.
Speaker 5 (39:11):
I also feel the same about creating an amazing tool
experience for my clients.
Speaker 4 (39:17):
So that's the idea behind it.
Speaker 1 (39:19):
And I have to tell you, if you go on
tour with Julia, you're very, very lucky, absolutely amazing and
we love having hair on the team. So Julia grabs
to me, thank you for sharing traditional balsomic vinegar of moderna.
It is a bit of a mouthful, but I tell
you what, you do want it in your mouth. It's
one of those things that my kids say to me, Mum,
(39:42):
where's that balzamik And I'm like, they want to have it,
just a spoonful of it. I'm like, maybe, okay, but
it's a real tree and we shouldn't really save it actually,
so I'm now going to go and see where it is.
Speaker 3 (39:54):
I'm going to go find it if I hit it
from them.
Speaker 5 (39:58):
The funny thing, Katie actually forgot to mention something that
we use it also as a medicine, you.
Speaker 3 (40:03):
Know, just the thought of it makes me feel better
about everything really.
Speaker 5 (40:06):
Because actually the world but sami comes from balm balm
because actually we use it as well.
Speaker 4 (40:12):
And I think I already mentioned, we are quite crazy
in this area.
Speaker 5 (40:17):
When we have a sore throat, it's the very best
natural medicine you could ever have, So yeah, keep the taste.
Speaker 4 (40:24):
But also as a natural medicine.
Speaker 5 (40:26):
If you are into this type of natural medicine, it's
for you, isn't it.
Speaker 4 (40:32):
Well, I think it's for.
Speaker 3 (40:33):
A lot of different reasons.
Speaker 1 (40:34):
And you know what, I can't wait to get back
into your area of Amilia. As you know, it's one
of my favorite places in Italy and I miss you,
I miss everyone there. So thanks Julia for joining us.
Speaker 5 (40:46):
Ask me like Katie, thank you all. I hope you
enjoyed it. Come and try the best traditional Versamich Julia.
Speaker 3 (40:56):
Listeners.
Speaker 1 (40:57):
Julia came into my life several years ago and is
one of the most generous, kind, funny and professional people
that I know. I'm absolutely thrilled that she's an important
member of our Untold Italy Tours team and know that
she charms everyone with her warm and bubbly personality, which
she gets from her beautiful parents, who I met earlier
this year.
Speaker 3 (41:17):
They are just as lovely as she is.
Speaker 1 (41:20):
The area where Julia comes from in Amelia, Romagna, close
to Modern Art, is a very special place, not just
for the balzamiko that you heard about today, but also
for its friendly people who have a passion for both
tradition and innovation. There are so many lovely towns to
explore there, and of course they make some of Italy's
most delicious products, so what's not to love. We visit
(41:44):
this region and go deep into the Amelia countryside, including
Spilamberto where Julia lives on our Untold Italy tour of
the Amelia region. This is such a special experience because
you meet the locals with a local, you try that
gelato with a drizzle of real buzzoming vinegar, and you
go exploring the beautiful towns around the area. And if
(42:05):
you're lucky, you might meet Julia's dad too. So if
that sounds like fun to you, reach out to us
at Untold Italy Tours. We have a couple of spots
left on our tour for twenty twenty five and plucky
more for our tours in twenty twenty six. As always,
you'll find the details of the tour and the complete
(42:26):
transcript of this episode, plus the places we mentioned on
our website episode show notes at Untold Italy dot com
forward slash two nine zero for two hundred and ninety
good at to Emili. Thank you again to all our
wonderful listeners for your ongoing support of Untold Italy and
our five million, not five thousand listens. I hope you
(42:48):
enjoyed today's show. If you did, then it would be
amazing if you gave us a rating or review in
your favorite podcast at or decide to support us by
downloading our app and upgrading to the premium at free,
where you will find our podcast episodes at free and searchable,
and our curated travel guides for places all across Italy.
Speaker 3 (43:09):
That's all for today.
Speaker 1 (43:10):
On next week's episode, I'm sharing some of my favorite
towns to visit in Italy in autumn for the fall.
But until then, it's chow for now. The Untold Italy
podcast is an independent production podcast editing, audio production and
website development by Mark Hatter, Production assistance and content writing
by the are they kJ Clark, Yes, there are two
(43:32):
of us. For more information about Untold Italy, please visit
Untold Italy dot com.
What Italian food product is described as black gold. This
delicious luxury condiment can be served with cheese or gelato,
and it's only made in a very small area near
the city of Moderna. Listen on to discover why traditional
balsamic vinegar of Modna is nothing like the balsamic vinegar
most of us know.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Chawatooti and Benvenuti Tuan Told Italy The travel podcast to
where you go to the towns and villages, mountains and lakes,
hills and coastlines of Bela, Italia. Each week, your host
Katie Clark takes you on a journey in a search
of magical landscapes, history, culture, wine, gelato, and of course,
(00:49):
a whole lot of pasta. If you're dreaming of Italy
and planning future adventures there, you've come to the right place.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
Dreaming of arriving in Italy, strolling into a gelatia and
ordering your gelato with confidence. If you've been learning Italian
with language apps but still can't string a sentence together,
it might be time to try another approach. My friend
Michelle from Intrepid Italian offers a practical way to learn
travel ready Italian thanks to her unique eighty twenty method.
(01:27):
Michelle teaches you exactly what you need to know to
connect with locals and have more authentic travel experiences. There's
no getting bogged down in awkward phrases and unnecessary grammar.
As an adult learner herself with Italian heritage, Michelle really
knows how to bridge the gap between English and Italian.
As Roma from London said, the learning methodology is great.
(01:51):
I progressed much faster in the last four weeks than
I ever did on my own or using other language apps.
To find out more and claim you're free Italian travel
phrase guide, visit untold Italy dot com, forward slash Italian
or visit the link in the show notes. As a bonus,
you'll also get an exclusive twenty dollars coupon code to
use on any of Michelle's online self paced courses. So
(02:14):
visit untold Italy dot com, forward slash Italian and accelerate
your Italian language of journey. Today, Well, JOHNO, welcome friends.
Today we're going deep into the Amelia region to discuss
one of my favorite Italian food products. But first today
is a very special milestone and a milestone episode because
(02:35):
I was just checking through some statistics on the podcast
and realized that we've now crossed a very big threshold.
Speaker 3 (02:41):
Drum roll please.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
So far there have been over five million listens of
the Untold Itly podcast episodes. Wow, that's a mind blowing
number and in fact a lot of people listening to
my voice over many hours and many years. And I
really appreciate you all tuning in and supporting the show. Gratzier,
thank you. I know many of you have been listening
(03:04):
to the Untold Italy podcast for many, many years, and
I so appreciate it and all the lovely messages you've
set through over the years from all corners and continents
of the earth, even from India, South Korea and South Africa.
It's truly amazing. We've come a long way since our
first episode in twenty twenty, and never could I have
imagined back then that I would be recording our two
(03:26):
hundred and ninetieth episode. There's been a lot of water
under the bridge, lots of growth and learning and changes,
and now we even have an app where all the
podcasts can be searched by topic and heard ad free.
It's all part of our goal to help you enjoy
your time in Italy. And seek out those hidden and
special moments that keep you dreaming of your time there
(03:46):
after many many moons have passed.
Speaker 3 (03:49):
Now this episode was not.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Planned when I knew about this celebration, but in fact
our guest today represents exactly what Untold Italy is all about.
Speaker 3 (03:58):
My beautiful friend and colleague, Julia Tami.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
Is back on the show to share one of the
most uniquely Italian products that comes from the town where
she lives. Part of my mission here at Untold Italy
is not only to surface lesser known places and experiences
beyond the main tourist paths, but also to shine a
light on talented Italian women that I've met along the way.
Italy is a very traditional country where women have to
(04:22):
fight that much harder to have their voices heard. This
is compounded by the fact that most discussions about Italy
and Italians that we hear or see in the English
language media, including Untold Italy, is predominantly fed by people
who aren't Italian. And I really believe that we should
hear a diversity of voices about all topics, but that
(04:44):
it's especially important to hear from local people in the
places that we visit. So it's my absolute pleasure to
welcome Julia back onto the show today to tell you
all about the magic that is traditional balsamic vinegar of Moderna.
Speaker 3 (04:59):
Ben to Nat Julia.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
Welcome back to the Untold Italy podcast, my dear friendow Katie.
Speaker 4 (05:05):
I'm so excited.
Speaker 5 (05:07):
Yes, I am back, and I am actually excited to
share a little bit about my area with you all.
Speaker 3 (05:15):
It's been a long time. I think it's been about
years since you've been on the podcast. Julia. That's way
too long.
Speaker 4 (05:21):
Yeah, I think, actually, Katie. Yeah, it was maybe a year.
Speaker 5 (05:23):
Ago, and it was just after I finished the Parmelia
course because if you remember, it was about the parana
topic and there was with my teacher back then.
Speaker 4 (05:35):
So yeah, one year ago. Time flies.
Speaker 3 (05:38):
Oh my goodness, that was a great episode.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
Everyone should go back and listen to that one because
it was fantastic. And now Julia does come from the
amazing area of Amelia, Romagna, which is the home of
Parmigiano Reggiano and also the topic that we're talking about today,
which is traditional balsamic vinegar of Moderna. Julia, I know
you very well, but maybe some of our listeners don't
(06:03):
know you.
Speaker 3 (06:03):
So well, but could you please introduce yourself to everyone.
Speaker 5 (06:07):
Yes, of course, my name is Julia and I am
based in a Milla, Romagnia.
Speaker 4 (06:14):
I work for Katie on the Ialy.
Speaker 5 (06:17):
TOURSA, but I also have my little baby project which
is called the Travel with Resdora, and I offer toursa
of my I would say neighborhood area, which is the
area between Moderna and Bologna, so I really specialize in
the unknown parts around.
Speaker 4 (06:38):
These two cities.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
Mainly, Julia is an excellent guide of her area because
she's so passionate about it, and she's also a food
ambassador for them too, because she's an absolute joy and
a legend in her area. And anyone that has been
on tour with Julia just knows how very special she is.
(06:59):
We're very like to have her on the Untold Italy team,
and I wanted to get Julia on the call today
to talk about balzam and vinegar because I think, you know,
it's got a bit of an interesting reputation in English
speaking countries, and it's probably a little bit sad because
it's not what you think. Yeah, everyone thinks it's that
(07:22):
bottle that you squired on a salad but this is
a condiment that is steeped in tradition and it's got
a beautiful history and the process to make the traditional
balsamik vinegar of moderna is very very special, Julia, can
you give us a little bit of a background into
balsamic vinegar and the history.
Speaker 5 (07:44):
Well, Katie, the funny part is that it's not only
misunderstood by people not from Italy, but also by people
from Italy itself.
Speaker 4 (07:55):
Oh no, because it's.
Speaker 5 (07:57):
Special about it. It's that a traditional balsamic vinegar. It's
so rare. And I will explain later why it's so
rare that even people from Bologna don't know it as much, okay,
or people from other regions.
Speaker 4 (08:16):
This is just crazy because.
Speaker 5 (08:19):
Traditional balsamic vinegar is made only and absolute only in
the modern area.
Speaker 4 (08:26):
So only in this piece of land.
Speaker 5 (08:29):
Which is exactly where I live. We keep this traditional life.
And I was just mentioning that traditional balsamic vinegar is rare.
And actually it's the question that I always ask to
the people I make them taste. Have you ever tried
a food that is at least twelve years? All? The
(08:50):
answer is what twelve years or months? J did you
make a mistake and I'm like no, no, no, no, no,
I'm serious. We're talking about okay, and I'm saying minimum
twelve year stateies.
Speaker 4 (09:03):
So this is why obviously it's very unique.
Speaker 5 (09:08):
Most people also in Italy think of balsamic vinegar not
as traditional balsamic vinegar. And I know it might sound confusing,
but also on restaurants, on restaurant table, you would actually
mainly find what's called balsamico, which is what we call
igp balsamico. We are talking about something different today, which
(09:32):
is the doop or pdo in English.
Speaker 4 (09:36):
Traditional balsamic vinegar.
Speaker 5 (09:38):
So make sure that you go for that big world traditional.
Speaker 4 (09:43):
I know it's confusing, but can I just explain what
is mainly the difference right right? Well, first of all,
the taste and the consistency.
Speaker 5 (09:56):
The very first time you will try to traditional bas
and vinegar, you won't go back, okay. In one of
the podcasts, I was talking about the famous ricotta coming
from the Parmesan reg John. It's like a never not
a coming back thine, you know after you tried that,
like okay, bye, you know that's the best ever. Sorry,
(10:17):
I don't want to sound big headed, Katie here, but
we always call.
Speaker 4 (10:21):
Midia Romagnia, the food the land.
Speaker 5 (10:23):
Okay, So for all the food is listening to us,
Please trust Julia on this one. Come and try the
tradition basamon vinegar. So basically basamic vinegar takes at least
twelve years to be made, up to twenty five years, okay.
And obviously the taste is completely different and the consistency.
(10:47):
We actually nickname it the black gold of modern.
Speaker 4 (10:52):
The beauty of.
Speaker 5 (10:53):
It is like when you taste wine, you know, So
it's actually coming from grapes.
Speaker 4 (10:59):
So what the only one.
Speaker 5 (11:01):
And only ingredient of traditional balsamach is cooked must the
cooked mast of grapes. So in modern if you have
a vineyard, you go two ways. What do I do
with my grapes? Do I go the pass of wine
of vino and obviously my area made it rambrusco, or
do I go the path of traditional balsamic vinegar?
Speaker 4 (11:22):
Okay?
Speaker 5 (11:22):
So those they select the cooked juice of the grapes.
And there is a very special moment when we cook
this mast grape mast, which is October.
Speaker 4 (11:35):
So in October because obviously it follows the season.
Speaker 5 (11:38):
Also, if you ever come to my village, which is
called Spilamberto the very first weekend of October. Katie, you
would actually be able to attend our past media expression Christmas.
It's funny because every village in Italy as a special farer.
Speaker 4 (11:57):
We ins Spilamberto.
Speaker 5 (11:58):
We have two special fairs, one about the balsamic vinegar,
which I'm gonna tell you, and another.
Speaker 4 (12:04):
One which is called the San Jovanni, our Sant John's.
Speaker 5 (12:07):
And we also have other traditions. We have loads of traditions.
But let me go back to the very first weekend.
So that's when we cook the grape must. And what
do we do with this grape must? We put it
into our set of barrels. Now, it's a little bit complicated.
So let's pretend that Katie, you win a set of barrels. Okay,
(12:31):
so we start from scratch this year.
Speaker 4 (12:34):
What do we do? So, first of all, this.
Speaker 5 (12:36):
Set of barrels is called batteria, and normally a batteria
has got minimum five barrels.
Speaker 4 (12:44):
Okay.
Speaker 5 (12:45):
Those five barrels are normally made of different types of wood,
because each wood would give a special flavor into the product.
Normally wood made for them is okay, chestnut, mulberry, juniper.
Speaker 4 (13:05):
I mean these are the normal woods.
Speaker 5 (13:08):
If you went crazy, and many people do that too,
they say, Okay, you know what, I really love cherry wood.
I really like the flavor of cherries. So they might
have a set of barrels made of only cherries, or
maybe you like more of a herbal and balsamic tastes,
(13:29):
so you would only get the juniper one, which.
Speaker 4 (13:32):
Is very hard to get, isn't it.
Speaker 5 (13:34):
And actually, if you ever taste the traditional made of
only one better, you do feel the difference so much
because it's completely different. Personally, Katie, I really love the
cherry one because I am a little bit of a
sweet tooth and I love cherries, so obviously having a
traditional balsamich made of that, it's so different, you really
(13:57):
feel it.
Speaker 3 (13:58):
We will return in a mind with the rest of
the episode.
Speaker 5 (14:06):
And so basically going back. So Katie won a set
of barrels. So this year, me and Katie go and
cook the grape mast. Then what do we do with
this grape mast? We fill all the five barrels and
for at least twelve years, So for twelve years we
don't taste anything.
Speaker 4 (14:26):
We just work. When I have kids. I'm like, how
old are you? Oh, I'm seven. Okay, you are not
even a bottle of traditional balsomach. You know. For twelve years,
we cannot catch it.
Speaker 5 (14:37):
And what we do is the juice evaporates and the
small less barrel is the only one where we take
the liquid out from okay, with all the other four
before this one we have to refill. So you put
the liquid from the fifth to the fourth, from the
(14:59):
flour to the third and so on, and you fill
with the grape juice the fifth one.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
Yeah, so it just gets more concentrated, doesn't it as
it goes on. So they're doing cooking some grape juice,
and then they reduce it, and then they're adding some more,
and then.
Speaker 3 (15:17):
They reduce it.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
And so by the time that we get to the
end of the twelve years, then it becomes very thick.
Speaker 4 (15:25):
Very sick.
Speaker 5 (15:26):
And this is what we call the tradition of Assami vinegar.
But obviously our tradition has been so long that we
go over the twelve years, so we also have what
we call extra vacuum, which is minimum twenty five years,
and that's also even more different than the twelve So
(15:48):
normally we do this kind of tasting. We try the twelve,
which we try the twenty five, and then we try
the different barrels. So, because as I was saying, you
can even think of doing a battle of only just
one type of wood.
Speaker 4 (16:03):
It's incredible.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
Yeah, it's a beautiful thing to say, like a batteria
at a place where they make the Balsama vinegar. And
I don't just have one set of barrels. They have many,
many sets of barrels, don't they. And they do experiments
on the different types of wood and the different aging processes.
It's so interesting.
Speaker 4 (16:24):
It's our life, Katie, and I'm not joking about it.
Speaker 5 (16:27):
So one of the things that I should mention is
that in my area, we have a specific food.
Speaker 4 (16:34):
Product in each town.
Speaker 5 (16:36):
So in my town's Pilamberto, we are the town famous
for the traditional Basadonic vinegar because we have what we
call the consort area, the consortium, and Katy, you know
it very well. We also visited during the Antol Italy tour.
Because I like to joke about this because well, first
of all, they are amazing.
Speaker 4 (16:56):
They are the members of this consortium.
Speaker 5 (16:59):
Are ex extremely passionate obviously about the product and their
mission is to keep this traditional life. But not only
they want to keep the authenticity of the production because
as I was mentioning before, the traditional one is what
we call a PDIO product. So there is a disciplinary
(17:20):
that has been actually recognized by the European Union in
two thousand that tells you exactly about the rules about
this product. So there is actually a body that tells
you if you can bottle that traditional basami vinegar. It's
something very strict, very very very serious. It's very hard
(17:41):
to have the PDIO or recognition KATI as we know
this consortium. So there are many passionate people, but there
are also many volunteers and that I feel like they
are my uncles because you know, they live the consorting
it's five hundred meters from my little flat, and they
are there every day. There are these volunteers that the
(18:04):
age range is the seventies eighties, okay, and they are
there every day in the lab to check the acidity levels,
the sugar levels for a product that takes at least
twelve years but not they have to check every day.
You know, they're amazing, They're amazing. And plus there is
(18:26):
the Grand Master, So there are many masters that obviously
look after their set of barrels.
Speaker 4 (18:32):
And then there is the grand Master of.
Speaker 5 (18:34):
Balsamach and by Joe, I say, the Pope of traditional
basamic vinegar.
Speaker 4 (18:39):
I hope they don't listen to this, Katie, because I
don't like that. But yeah, and.
Speaker 5 (18:44):
Yeah, basically they really do a great job in talking
about the product in you know, keeping it alive.
Speaker 4 (18:51):
Because what happens is, Okay, we have the consortium.
Speaker 5 (18:55):
But we have all the families as well in my
area that keep this traditional life.
Speaker 4 (19:01):
It's very very special that each family.
Speaker 5 (19:04):
As their set of burrows, even if they're not a
big producer, every family has a set of barrels there
and they have to get a check.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
This is the one thing that I didn't really understand
until I went to spilamberto is that if you want
to bottle your traditional balsamic vinegar, you have to get
it approved. Like Julia said, you can't just go ahead
and bottle this thing, but you can call it something else,
but you can't call it traditional balsamic vinegar of moderna.
(19:33):
We do go to another producer and he actually told us,
you know, has been rejected and he's had to go
back and rebalance everything. And it's a big deal, isn't it,
Because you're not getting very many bottles out every year
because it's so concentrated. So if you make a mistake
or something, it's a big problem.
Speaker 4 (19:52):
It's a big problem.
Speaker 5 (19:53):
And actually, as I was saying, many families have they're
all or if not, maybe a couple of because in
the past, what happened was it would be the dowry,
so when women would get married, they would bring this
as a dowry. Nowadays we also give a set when
(20:13):
a baby is born. It's so nice, isn't it, Katie.
So for example, my best friend, she has got two daughters,
so their grandfather as god, his own private, his own,
and then he made one for my friend, and then
it made and they made two for my friend's daughters.
(20:34):
You know, So in their families they've got four set
of barrels. And they was doing a competition. And normally
when we meet at Christmas, because I always go and
meet them, we always have the tasting.
Speaker 4 (20:46):
Oh what is the best? How it shag?
Speaker 5 (20:49):
It's also a family thing, you know, because it's so
it's so in our blood. If I would say, you know, unfortunately, Katie,
I don't have my barrel.
Speaker 4 (20:59):
You know why.
Speaker 5 (21:00):
Because my dad is from Bologna and my mom also
is from Bologna. So basically it wasn't their tradition. And
it's funny because if you check on the map, Bologna
and Moderna are only thirty kilometers apart. And that's why
I was saying, in Bologna they don't know it. Well,
it's not that they don't know it, but they don't
use it as much, you know, because it's some modern
(21:21):
A thing. You know.
Speaker 4 (21:22):
It's crazy.
Speaker 1 (21:24):
Yeah, it's so interesting how hyper local this is. Like,
you can't exaggerate this because, like Julia said, it's only
thirty kilometers and you know, it's not very It's.
Speaker 3 (21:36):
Like a pretty flat land in between, isn't it.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
Like, So I don't know, they're just doing their own
thing in Moderna and around Spilmberto, and it's a really
beautiful tradition and it's very much worth seeking out.
Speaker 3 (21:49):
So, Julie, can you explain to everyone what.
Speaker 1 (21:52):
Is the taste of this traditional balsami vinegar of Moderna?
Speaker 4 (21:57):
So imagine our sick consistency.
Speaker 5 (22:01):
And you would feel sweet and sour at the same time,
and it's the equilibrium between the two.
Speaker 4 (22:10):
I would say that the twenty five.
Speaker 5 (22:12):
Years old is what we call more harmonious as a taste,
because obviously it has got more time in contact with
these types of wood, and each wood would give an aroma. Again,
it's a very complex taste. And this complex taste goes
(22:32):
well with most things.
Speaker 4 (22:35):
I was asked how we use it.
Speaker 5 (22:38):
You would use this to enhance any type of food
apart from coffee maybe, and anything.
Speaker 4 (22:46):
En enhanced by traditional balsami vinegar.
Speaker 5 (22:50):
And if you're lucky, you are coming from modern and
you could actually use this black gold also on most
common things. So for example, imagine you are making an
onion frittata an omelet shoot drops of traditional balsamach.
Speaker 4 (23:10):
This brings you that onion frittata. Boom to heaven. But
boom it.
Speaker 5 (23:16):
Comes immediately, you know, something heavenly, you know, because it
gives you such a more complex taste. And as I said,
it can also be something very simple. You know, you
because you really only need a couple of drops. That's
another thing. When we call it black gold, it's not
(23:37):
by chance. It's really you need very very little. And Katie,
you know, you know this so well. We even put
it on gelato.
Speaker 3 (23:45):
Yes, that was delicious.
Speaker 4 (23:48):
Isn't it, Katie?
Speaker 5 (23:48):
I know you are, you are very passionate about it.
So even on gelato, would you ever think of trying
to put traditionals and vinegar well in modern and we
do that. So think of a body nice crema gerato
it changes it completely, or even on strawberries, amazing obviously
(24:08):
on risotto, on meat, there are many, many different ways.
Obviously on tortellini, and you know how passionate I am
about tortellini, Like tortellinia la pana, well obviously not in broth,
but tortellini la pana.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
That's the dish you have to try when you're in
the area. It's the absolutely best. It is so amazing.
Speaker 3 (24:30):
You've got everything in that dish from that area.
Speaker 1 (24:33):
You've got pasta, you have prosciutto, you have pagano, and
you have basamika. It's like it is like the culmination
of everything modern asa, isn't it.
Speaker 4 (24:44):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (24:45):
Ah, well, absolutely, it's a feast. It's a feast that
has to be tried. Obviously, we do also have lighter
things to it. If you're worried that we would fill
you with. But you know that's our special if we
like the rich food, like we love this kind of
like super tasty, you know, and the other thing is
(25:07):
all handmade. And really it's like this, we are very picky,
very very picky, so if it's not made properly, we
won't even offer it at all, like because we are
used to have the best. The best also involves time.
(25:29):
Actually I mentioned before there is only one ingredient in
the traditional basami vinegar.
Speaker 4 (25:35):
Well, yeah, of course it's the great mask.
Speaker 5 (25:37):
But think about the technique, the patience, the time. I mean,
thinking about all the elements that go into this product,
even the barrels. It's crazy how the coopers make the barrel.
It's a very shared product by many many hearts. So
you know we always say passion into it, but think
(25:59):
of all the hearts that are in that bottle.
Speaker 4 (26:02):
You know, it's crazy.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
And it's quite expensive, like I mean, it's not like
it's not the seven dollars one you get at the supermarket,
because that is it's a totally different taste and that's
very acidic and you usually use it on salads and
things like that, and you know, you can get some
very delicious balsamic vinegars that are made that way, which
(26:25):
you can find still in around modern too, and it's
a very interesting process.
Speaker 3 (26:30):
And on the tour we go to a nash Attire.
Speaker 1 (26:33):
Which is what they call the people that make the
balsomic vinegar, and they're doing a lot of experimental things
with different woods and aging processes, and it's it's very
interesting to see that tradition versus the modern interpretation of
basomic vinegar.
Speaker 3 (26:50):
But it's all good, right, it's all delicious.
Speaker 5 (26:53):
Yeah, yeah, there is also very good something vinegar. So
that's why it's a little bit confusing because the traditional
vinegar is the one we just spoke about. Then there
is IGP balsamic vinegar, which is the one that doesn't
only have one ingredient because they could add other things too,
can also be very well made, So that's IGP okay.
(27:18):
I would actually challenge everyone listening to check when they
are at the supermarket or check what they have at all,
to make sure that they read what type of basamic
vinegar they have, because very very commonly is the IGP one. Okay,
So there are all obviously different standards of this IGP.
(27:40):
It could be very good and the actualia we're visiting.
They do excellent IGP. But to be honest, Kater, there
is also horrible. There is stuff that is basically black
water with lots of sugar. What's really horrible to me, sorry, Katie,
is the.
Speaker 3 (28:01):
Time for a quick break shorter than your morning espresso.
Speaker 1 (28:09):
Yes, they try and make that sound like it's traditional bazami,
but it's just chock full of sugar. And that's the
one that they squirt all over plates, isn't it.
Speaker 4 (28:20):
Yes, that's horrible, and I see that everywhere.
Speaker 5 (28:24):
Because obviously when we do tours outside of my area,
I'm like, okay, please don't think that's that's something.
Speaker 4 (28:30):
Please please please do me this favor.
Speaker 5 (28:32):
You know, you know, Katie, how they call me the
balsamic police.
Speaker 4 (28:38):
I'm sorry. I am very passionate about it.
Speaker 5 (28:40):
And I don't make I am proud to be an ambassador,
but I'm not the expert. Okay, So please come and
meet the expert that make it. And if you speak
to them, it's like you're talking about their mother.
Speaker 4 (28:53):
It's like, oh my god, untouchable. You know, It's so funny.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
I have been to the Consortium and they are very
very serious. People, and you know, you go up into
their room where they have their barrels, and it's very
interesting because it's actually quite humid up there, isn't it. It
gets quite warm, and you know, I think it helps
with the evaporation process. But when I walked in there,
I was quite shocked and my eyes got drawn to
(29:18):
one set of barrels, didn't they? And I said, is
that what I think it is? And they said, uh huh.
And so if you're a big foodie and you know
about the area of Moderna where Julia's from, you know
that there's a very famous chef from that area and
his name is Massimo Butura, and he's probably one of
(29:39):
the most famous chefs in Italy. And I noticed that
there was a like they have an embroidered cloth over
the hole of the barrel and it said Osteria Franciscana,
which is his famous, very famous restaurant in the area.
And I said, do you have the bazza vitigar for
Ostia Franciscana And they said, yes, we do, and you know,
(30:02):
it's managed under very strict conditions there. So it's really
worth going to visit the consortium and visit spilamberto because
of this tradition, but also it's a super cute little town.
I've got to say, it's like it's a little little
castle thing happening and little turret.
Speaker 4 (30:21):
Yeah, it's lovely.
Speaker 5 (30:22):
It's very off the beaten path because unfortunately not many
people take the time to visit these little towns, you know,
And I think it's the beauty of Italy that of
course you need to visit the big cities, of course,
but you know, there is so much beauty just around
the corner that maybe it's a little bit less successible.
Speaker 4 (30:41):
But I would suggest everyone to take the time to
do explore us.
Speaker 5 (30:46):
And by the way, Katie, you are so right about
that humidity and heat, but actually there is a reason
behind it, and you just mentioned about the Arctic and
it's actually where we keep the material set of bar
because we actually need this wide temperature variation throughout the
day but also the season because obviously you need the
(31:09):
a million heat and trust me, it's not very pleasant.
So I would have to come in July and August
because it's really hot. Okay, So it actually this product
really needs this heat because it helps the fermentation process.
But also on the other side, it needs the cold
(31:29):
for the decounting, so you need to have.
Speaker 4 (31:33):
These big peaks of temperature.
Speaker 5 (31:35):
And this is why it's the area of modern and
only because in this area we have this type of climate.
In the attic, they can't have air conditioning. So please
don't be surprised that if you ever come to meet us,
we make you experience the humidity.
Speaker 4 (31:51):
I know it's not pleasant, but it's.
Speaker 5 (31:53):
Not because we are mean people and we don't have
air cons it's actually because of the product.
Speaker 1 (32:00):
The thing that I remembered about the balsamic vinegar is
that it comes the traditional balsamic vinegar, is that it
comes in a very special bottle as well, doesn't it exactly?
Speaker 4 (32:09):
And by the way, Katie, you know that the Italians
are big.
Speaker 5 (32:12):
On design, and obviously could it be a normal bottle,
of course not, no, of course not. This bottle has
been designed by Jiu Jittu Jiujaro, who is a car designer.
But look at that if you pay him well enough,
if you also design the bottle, and so basically there
(32:32):
is this very special bottle and this is what you
need to look for. If it's not bottled in that
it's fake and unfortunately, and I actually I must say
this and this is why I am the traditional balsamic police.
Please please, please don't be fooled by people, because there
(32:53):
are many chick people that do this that tell you.
Speaker 4 (32:56):
Is traditional basamic vinegar. It cannot be sold if not
in that bottle.
Speaker 5 (33:01):
So you's immediately it's the distinct thing that you would
recognize straight away.
Speaker 1 (33:08):
It's kind of round, but it's got straight edges on
the side as well. What we'll do is we'll find
a picture and we'll put it in the show notes, so.
Speaker 4 (33:15):
Everyone can say that good idea.
Speaker 3 (33:17):
Yeah, it's a very special bottle.
Speaker 1 (33:19):
Is there any particular brands that maybe people could look
for or like companies.
Speaker 4 (33:25):
Thinking about traditional vinegar?
Speaker 5 (33:27):
I wouldn't say we can really talk about brands because
it's all linked to families.
Speaker 4 (33:33):
Obviously, there are.
Speaker 5 (33:35):
Producers that are obviously they have a bigger production.
Speaker 4 (33:39):
But you don't really have so many many many bottles. Well,
one big name in my area is of course Sereni.
They do amazing traditional basai vinegar and basami vinegar. Or
maybe one that you have heard.
Speaker 5 (33:53):
Is also Justing is quite famous as well. There is
one called Leonardi. Obviously these are names, but the beauty
is also checking out these smaller artisans. Okay, so I
would say maybe they are more widespread, of course, and
do try them. It's like wine, you know, try obviously
(34:15):
different ones. So you could do the same with traditional
balsami vinegar, and the beauty is also going to little families.
Speaker 4 (34:21):
To try their their own. You know, if you.
Speaker 5 (34:24):
Start becoming passionate. It's really like tasting wine. It's exactly
the same because every family puts their touch.
Speaker 4 (34:32):
That's the beauty and.
Speaker 3 (34:34):
The other thing.
Speaker 1 (34:35):
When you were just saying that, Julia, I was thinking, like,
people might think that it's alcoholic, but it's not, is
it because they don't add sugar?
Speaker 5 (34:41):
No, no, no, it's as I said, only one ingredient. So
it's natural sugar, no alcohol not because it's all natural fermentation.
Speaker 4 (34:52):
So literally it's also very healthy.
Speaker 1 (34:55):
Do you think it's very I mean you think I
visit a lot of doesn't make vinegar producers in the area.
But if you really want to understand and have a
good experience of the whole tradition of this amazing product
actually is to go to Spilamberto and go to the
consortium there. They've got a lovely museum there and they
(35:17):
will take you through and then you can see the
butteria up there as well. It's a really interesting experience.
And we took the kids, didn't we And then they
had their gelato with their traditional balsamic vinegar on top,
and they loved it.
Speaker 3 (35:30):
And in fact, my son is absolutely obsessed by.
Speaker 1 (35:32):
This concept, so he's a little bit of Modernay in
his heart, Mysa. So yeah, it is a very fascinating
and ancient. It's been going for hundreds of years, hasn't it, Julia.
Speaker 4 (35:46):
Hundreds of yeers.
Speaker 5 (35:47):
Actually, when I was talking about the modern area, we
have got written pieces about the traditional balsamic vinegar from
the sixteen hundred. That's when the Aste family was in
power in moderna DS. They were like the Medici for
the modernas and all.
Speaker 4 (36:05):
And the very very.
Speaker 5 (36:06):
Very first definition appeared in the mid seventeen hundred, just
before Napoleon came to steal all the Basavan vinegar. Actually
you know what he did, Katie.
Speaker 4 (36:16):
It was beat me in Napoleon, you know, we know
that very well.
Speaker 5 (36:20):
So basically when he arrived, he auctioned the Duke of
Veste vinegar but Ta da Daan again, the proud nobles
and bourgeois of Moderna bought the barrels and so they
kept the traditional life.
Speaker 4 (36:39):
So it actually got preserved.
Speaker 5 (36:42):
So with the decline of Napoleon, they asked the family
took over again. And actually what happened was in the
early eighteen hundred there was a very famous prince that
came to Moderna and what they did was to make
sure that he could taste the finest.
Speaker 4 (36:59):
They start did what we call the palior.
Speaker 5 (37:02):
Maybe you know this world parlor because you think of
Siena Plu, the Sienna, but we also have a palio
of balsamic vinegar in modern So from the eighteen hundred
we have got those lots of written letters about how
to make the best traditional balsamic.
Speaker 4 (37:20):
Vinegar, you know.
Speaker 5 (37:21):
So there was a lot of will to create again
this super fine product.
Speaker 1 (37:26):
There's a lot of tradition and passion behind this product.
It's a very unique product from Italy and it's really
got a lovely family and community history behind it.
Speaker 3 (37:39):
If you join us in.
Speaker 1 (37:42):
Bologna or our tour Amilia, you get to go to
the consortium and meet the people there, and if you're
very lucky, you might meet the grand Master like I did,
and you also go and you try some different ones,
so you have that real local experience and it's really
really love Julia, thank you.
Speaker 3 (38:01):
That was really fantastic. Now I love talking about bas
Iman Vinegar. I could talk about it for a lot longer.
Speaker 1 (38:08):
But if anyone wanted to get in touch with you,
and if you're around to take you on little visit
round Spillam Better and your area, how could they get
in touch with you?
Speaker 5 (38:18):
You could go onto my website ww dot travel with
Redsdora dot com. I should spell Redsdora because it's a
very difficult word, Katie, so it's r e z d
o r a dot com. And actually Resdora actually is
(38:40):
a dialect board from my area, which actually means the
women leaders of.
Speaker 4 (38:46):
The kitchens and of the house.
Speaker 5 (38:49):
Okay, so not because I feel I am a leader
of the kitchen because I don't really cook very well myself,
but I like to think of myself as the Resdora
of traveling. So the res door are the creators of
this amazing food, you know, so think about the totaline,
or they go and hand pick the best prosuret to
the best barmizan or the best nutmeg and so.
Speaker 4 (39:08):
On to make the food.
Speaker 5 (39:11):
I also feel the same about creating an amazing tool
experience for my clients.
Speaker 4 (39:17):
So that's the idea behind it.
Speaker 1 (39:19):
And I have to tell you, if you go on
tour with Julia, you're very, very lucky, absolutely amazing and
we love having hair on the team. So Julia grabs
to me, thank you for sharing traditional balsomic vinegar of moderna.
It is a bit of a mouthful, but I tell
you what, you do want it in your mouth. It's
one of those things that my kids say to me, Mum,
(39:42):
where's that balzamik And I'm like, they want to have it,
just a spoonful of it. I'm like, maybe, okay, but
it's a real tree and we shouldn't really save it actually,
so I'm now going to go and see where it is.
Speaker 3 (39:54):
I'm going to go find it if I hit it
from them.
Speaker 5 (39:58):
The funny thing, Katie actually forgot to mention something that
we use it also as a medicine, you.
Speaker 3 (40:03):
Know, just the thought of it makes me feel better
about everything really.
Speaker 5 (40:06):
Because actually the world but sami comes from balm balm
because actually we use it as well.
Speaker 4 (40:12):
And I think I already mentioned, we are quite crazy
in this area.
Speaker 5 (40:17):
When we have a sore throat, it's the very best
natural medicine you could ever have, So yeah, keep the taste.
Speaker 4 (40:24):
But also as a natural medicine.
Speaker 5 (40:26):
If you are into this type of natural medicine, it's
for you, isn't it.
Speaker 4 (40:32):
Well, I think it's for.
Speaker 3 (40:33):
A lot of different reasons.
Speaker 1 (40:34):
And you know what, I can't wait to get back
into your area of Amilia. As you know, it's one
of my favorite places in Italy and I miss you,
I miss everyone there. So thanks Julia for joining us.
Speaker 5 (40:46):
Ask me like Katie, thank you all. I hope you
enjoyed it. Come and try the best traditional Versamich Julia.
Speaker 3 (40:56):
Listeners.
Speaker 1 (40:57):
Julia came into my life several years ago and is
one of the most generous, kind, funny and professional people
that I know. I'm absolutely thrilled that she's an important
member of our Untold Italy Tours team and know that
she charms everyone with her warm and bubbly personality, which
she gets from her beautiful parents, who I met earlier
this year.
Speaker 3 (41:17):
They are just as lovely as she is.
Speaker 1 (41:20):
The area where Julia comes from in Amelia, Romagna, close
to Modern Art, is a very special place, not just
for the balzamiko that you heard about today, but also
for its friendly people who have a passion for both
tradition and innovation. There are so many lovely towns to
explore there, and of course they make some of Italy's
most delicious products, so what's not to love. We visit
(41:44):
this region and go deep into the Amelia countryside, including
Spilamberto where Julia lives on our Untold Italy tour of
the Amelia region. This is such a special experience because
you meet the locals with a local, you try that
gelato with a drizzle of real buzzoming vinegar, and you
go exploring the beautiful towns around the area. And if
(42:05):
you're lucky, you might meet Julia's dad too. So if
that sounds like fun to you, reach out to us
at Untold Italy Tours. We have a couple of spots
left on our tour for twenty twenty five and plucky
more for our tours in twenty twenty six. As always,
you'll find the details of the tour and the complete
(42:26):
transcript of this episode, plus the places we mentioned on
our website episode show notes at Untold Italy dot com
forward slash two nine zero for two hundred and ninety
good at to Emili. Thank you again to all our
wonderful listeners for your ongoing support of Untold Italy and
our five million, not five thousand listens. I hope you
(42:48):
enjoyed today's show. If you did, then it would be
amazing if you gave us a rating or review in
your favorite podcast at or decide to support us by
downloading our app and upgrading to the premium at free,
where you will find our podcast episodes at free and searchable,
and our curated travel guides for places all across Italy.
Speaker 3 (43:09):
That's all for today.
Speaker 1 (43:10):
On next week's episode, I'm sharing some of my favorite
towns to visit in Italy in autumn for the fall.
But until then, it's chow for now. The Untold Italy
podcast is an independent production podcast editing, audio production and
website development by Mark Hatter, Production assistance and content writing
by the are they kJ Clark, Yes, there are two
(43:32):
of us. For more information about Untold Italy, please visit
Untold Italy dot com.
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