Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
You know, for effect, Dear our aliens.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Our difference is worldwide would vanish if we were facing
an alien threat. Perhaps we need some outside universal threat
to make us recognize this common bound.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
Breaking news tonight, Sean Diddy Combs has been arrested in
an unhappy hotel.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
There's a relation to some comments that you made on
a Facebook page.
Speaker 4 (00:46):
This is a Fox News alert.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
The Epstein files have been released.
Speaker 4 (00:51):
Across the Pond.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
You're looking at now, sir. Everything that happens now is
happening for sure. Now.
Speaker 4 (01:01):
Yeah, welcome everyone to Across the Ponds podcast Today. I
have a very special guest with me, mister Adam Sweartz
from Crowds on Demand. Crowds on Demand is a how
(01:23):
do I put this and thatfficacy group? I'll just read
it from the website. Crowds on Demand is your home
for impactful advocacy campaigns, demonstrations, p Arston's, Crowds for hire,
and corporate events. That is some beautiful marketing language. I
(01:46):
got to say, Adam, thank you, thank you so much
for joining us.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
Hey, thanks for having me on your program. Great to
chat with you and your listeners and hopefully have a
great dialogue.
Speaker 4 (01:58):
Here I'm sure we will, so I guess first things.
First things first, the crowds on demand also very much
specializing in paid protesting. I'm saying that, right, that's right,
(02:19):
right in in I guess in your own words, what
is paid protesting? Because it's it's such a broad definition,
really and can be taken in so many ways.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
It's a great question. It's no different from being a
paid lawyer, or a paid doctor or a paid podcast host. Generally,
when you do work that helps somebody, you receive payment
for your services. So demonstrating is just simply one example
of that. Now, again, if you're thinking about it this way,
(02:54):
if you're a left wing attorney or a right wing attorney, right,
you would probably most likely take left wing or right
wing clients, but you would still request that those clients
pay for your services. Why because otherwise you won't be
able to feed your family. Right. So essentially, the concept
of compensating activists is actually it's premised on the idea
(03:17):
that a lot of people want to go out and
protest for cause that they believe in. But kids, they
have responsibilities, they have jobs, right, they can't just simply
take that time. We facilitate those people participating in public
protests to express their view.
Speaker 4 (03:34):
Oh wow, okay, so how does that work. Do they
just get you know, get get a paycheck in the
mail or because there is so much to do with
with protesting, especially over the last you know, let's say
five years.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
Yes, of course, well yeah, I mean it works the
way that you would get paid for any other occupation.
And one difference is that generally you're not There are
some campaigns that we have the crowds on demand, where
we have protesters outside of building every single day for
years on end. Right, So sometimes this has happened, but generally,
(04:14):
when it's a one off protest, you're you're you know,
let's just say you're an environmentalist, you really want to
protest for the environment. And let's just see, I'm just
gonna give you an example of our kind of engagement. Right,
So you're an environmentalist, right, Well, let's just say the
residence of a particular area who it's a very rich
neighborhood don't want like a power plant being built near
their neighborhood because it's you know, polluting or whatever. And
(04:37):
but but these are wealthy residents that that don't like
it because it's creating an eyesore. So they pay us
and they say, okay, well, crowds on demand, we want
to kind of block this power plant. Well, what we'll
do is okay, it doesn't sound very sympathetic to say
wealthy residents don't want an eyesore, right, So what we
would say is, okay, well who else would be against this? Well, environmentalists,
(04:58):
So we would get environment meals out there to protest
it on environmentalists grounds. So we commensate them. Hey, this
is something that they agree with anyway. But hey, there's
no shortage of environmental catastrophes right now, So if we
didn't compensate them, they might put their time elsewhere. So
we're compensating them for their time, but we're not compensating
(05:20):
them for their views.
Speaker 4 (05:21):
Oh okay, Oh that's interesting. So you you look for
the for the bigger, more well known parties, bigger, more
well known goals, if you will.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
Trying to do us oftentimes we get hired by a
niche interest, but we have to tap into the larger zeitgeist. Right.
So for example, in the me too era, you know,
the me two area with the you know, so we've
been like, okay, let's just say you have one company, like,
somebody doesn't like this company for whatever their reasons are. Well,
(05:58):
they but they find out the CEO is a PERV. Right, well,
maybe we protest them, you know, from the women's rights,
you know, feminist angle, right, even though our client's right
might be of a different nature. Do you see what
I'm saying? So what we're doing is what we want
to do is try to tap into the zeitgeist with
our with our narratives. That's part of my job is
(06:20):
somebody might be like, oh, well I don't really like
this company because you know, I feel like they overcharged me.
Well it's like yeah, but nobody really cares. So well,
what is the bigger thing that the company that we
can do to come after this company? Okay, well their
CEO is a PERV. Okay, well we can protest it
on that angle, you know what I mean? So you're
(06:40):
finding different angles of attack, if you see what I'm.
Speaker 4 (06:44):
Saying, Yeah, yeah, I do. I I have read that,
uh that example on your on your website where a
business was owned by a well let's let's let's call
it the let's call it the PERF.
Speaker 1 (06:57):
Yeah, yeah, that Well, what that one is is ther
is even kind of an understatement for that guy.
Speaker 3 (07:02):
Yeah, yeah, but let's let's try, yeah, to try to
stay away from Yes exactly, Yeah, they're there so so
but here's I guess the way that I'll put it
is that we're always looking for different angles of attack.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
Right, So, like I said, for the wealthy residents, maybe
we use the environmental angle for a corporate dispute, maybe
we use a feminist angle, you know, so you're always
looking at how do you make something bigger? Because our
goal is to create movements and create a catalyst, right,
so that the way you create a catalyst is making
this accessible and making it persuasive. So that's kind of
(07:38):
what we do.
Speaker 4 (07:39):
Don't your own feelings and opinions get in the way sometimes.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
Well they do, and and I lose business because of it,
sometimes because I I don't. There are certain causes I
won't that I don't want to take on, and sometimes
it costs me money.
Speaker 4 (07:53):
Coach, you name some some examples of those.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
Of all, Like, first of all, have you ever heard
of the Overton window? It's an American term. It's basically
the window of acceptable political discourse. Now that changes over time,
of course, as you'd imagine, But there are certain things
that I would say that are outside the Overton window.
So therefore, for example, groups that are hateful, right groups
(08:19):
that are you know, funded by some shady foreign entity,
right groups that are trying to create division and chaos
in the United States. I mean, obviously crowds have been
one of the reasons I'm coming on your podcast and
other shows is to make it very clear we don't
engage in illegal activity, right. So obviously if it's anything
that's illegal, we wouldn't engage in anything like that, or
(08:41):
defamatory or that kind of thing, right. So, so part
of it is mitigating our risk, right, so where we
don't want to obviously engage in any illegal activity, but
part of it is, hey, we don't it is legal
to be hateful, right in the United States at least,
right we have free speech. You can be a very
hateful person, but that's still legal. But we still don't
want to engage.
Speaker 4 (09:01):
With yeah, I I I understand. I mean, we've especially
over the last you know, five years, with the larger
protesting groups, let's say, the more well known ones, they
are well known to not be as peaceful.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
Let's say that's correct, and we don't engage in any
of that. So when people see that there's this sort
of misinformation that's spent on the internet, right, like, oh,
that's crowds on demand, it's like, well, that's absolutely not.
Speaker 5 (09:32):
That.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
We don't engage in any of that stuff. I mean,
think about it. I'm a business man. It wouldn't even
make sense for me.
Speaker 4 (09:38):
No, you you want, we don't want to be associated with,
you know, groups of of that nature. I can. I
can totally understand that. So those are other benefactors more,
you know, people who don't really care about the about
the reputation, or have have other goals.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
Perhaps well, I think when it comes to illegal activity,
you have to consider that you have to follow the
money because in protests, right, we in the United States.
I can speak to the United States because I know
the title is called the Across Upon Podcast, So I
can only speak on an American perspective because I know
my friends in the United Kingdom. They don't have full
free speech over there, right, And I strongly condemn the
(10:23):
attitude of the United Kingdom government on free speech. And
it's not a conservative or liberal talking point because they,
in fairness to them, they have put liberals or leftists
and conservatives in prison for what they call it is
incitement incitement, right, which is like, okay, well, the difference
(10:44):
what they consider incitement is a pretty broad swath of speech.
So I think it's just so unfortunate that Britain, which
is the birthplace of modern free speech and modern free thought,
you know, has decided that they want to open the
(11:04):
door to potentially to putting people in prison for thought crimes.
So so I strongly condemn that, but that's it's that's
sort of tangential to my point. But I just want
to be clear because I know a lot of your
audiences in Europe, so I'm speaking from an American perspective.
On our roles on free speech are are tend to
(11:25):
be very permissive, as as they should be, but when
it comes to illegal activity, that's very separate. So if
you're blocking a road without a permit, if you are vandalizing,
if you're throwing stuff at police officers or you know whatever,
that is a that is not a protest. That's that
(11:46):
is violence and needs to be treated as such. My
theory on those protest is that a lot of them
are funded from abroad, from hostile regimes. And the thesis
is this, and there's a lot of evidence for it
is a lot of these countries they don't want their
people asking for freedom, right, they don't want people to
(12:09):
ask for sort of the Western values. So what they
love to do is be like, look at the streets
of Paris, look at the streets of New York, look
at the streets of Los Angeles, look at the chaos
they have, look at the brutality of their police, and
look at the chaos. Right, so you don't want what
the West has, So it's a way that they amplify.
(12:30):
I mean, historically they did this on state TV, but
now they're even using social media and AI to advance
these sort of fake news. So it's very unfortunate. And
they're using but they're funding protests in the United States,
all protests, but this sort of violence to kind of
amplify that. So it's very very unfortunate that that is
(12:50):
the case.
Speaker 4 (12:52):
It's the Hegelian dialect. They cause the problem and sell
you the solution.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
Really, that's correct, It's correct.
Speaker 4 (13:01):
Yeah, So how would how would you go to go
on to set up a protest like you already named,
you know, like women's rights groups for example, or environmental groups.
Do you just like write write an email to them,
write a letter? How does that? How does that go?
Like I, I, I don't know this is so for us?
(13:21):
How of myst go?
Speaker 1 (13:23):
Well, we've been in business thirteen years, right, so we
do have kind of a method to our madness. We
are we have a network of people that we tap
into number one and number two. We strategically outreach to
people where when needed and uh and build those sort
of relationships. But a lot of those relationships are are
(13:44):
strategic and they are relationships of mutual benefit. Right, So
in the sense of I use the example of like
a like a feminist group. We we have feminist groups
that we know across the country, and in some cases
they might say, you know what, we we don't want
to involve ourselves in this particular thing, so then we
might try a different group, or we may and we
(14:04):
may not always work with groups. We may just have
individual feminists, for example, and in the case that we
can't get a group to help us, we may just
use individual people, or in some cases we create our
own groups.
Speaker 4 (14:19):
Yeah, I saw, I've read something like like that on
your website that even for for some clients. You you
set up entire.
Speaker 1 (14:30):
NGOs, that's correct, and we have and we do, we
run them.
Speaker 4 (14:33):
You still you still run those andngos. Those don't get
dismantled after well.
Speaker 1 (14:40):
Some of them do. So I'll tell you, I'll put
it this way. Sometimes the objectives keep getting loftier, right,
So you you may start something with two short term goals,
and then you achieve those short term goals, and then
you have the medium term goal. And in some cases
you achieve one of your two goals, but then you
still want to work to achieve the other one. So
(15:02):
maybe one you achieve really quickly and one is going
to take longer. I mean, you know, no one gets
everything they want all the time. So sometimes you keep
these groups in business and other times what we have
is groups that that are what I say, like, we
keep them in the background, so we kind of run
it at a very kind of low level, you know,
(15:24):
and then when they need them back, we bring them back.
Speaker 4 (15:27):
Okay, that that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
But just that work of these groups is very effective.
Speaker 4 (15:34):
Yeah, networking is is definitely the way to go. I
have I've heard that a lot. I've noticed that a lot.
It's not who you are is who you know? Really
a question that came from from one of my co
hosts actually something that he he has noticed and myself
(15:58):
as well. I have been involved and protests of you know,
of different kinds. I've been on the Museum Square in
Amsterdam during the COVID times. I even was sort of
beck in mine more at your days, part of the
occupy movement here in the Netherlands. Yeah, it's it seems
(16:22):
that was a lot of fun actually.
Speaker 1 (16:25):
Ageah, and you guys know how to protest out out
in your neck of the woods. I mean I was
reading actually about how you guys the cars were like
took over the city of Amsterdam in the sixties and
seventies and people literally like took to the streets saying
like get the cars the heck out, and that like
you think now of Amsterdam is this like very bike
(16:46):
train tram friendly city. But you know forty years ago,
fifty years ago wasn't. And that was because of the
actions of protests. But so protests achieve a lot of
ends and it probably could not ever have been achieved
without protest asked to actually build the Amsterdam that Americans
and Dutch and others really love and the one that
(17:07):
we recognize today.
Speaker 5 (17:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (17:09):
Absolutely, and in a lot of the major Dutch cities
it is highly you know, disencouraged to you know, to
drive your car into the city center. Also because the
roads are just that small.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
It's really that's.
Speaker 4 (17:24):
Correct, not not handy, a lot of sharp turns. But
what I what I remember from from my times and
what I've what I've heard from my my co host
is that there are usually a a few people who
really know what they are talking about, but then you know,
(17:48):
like so many other people who are I don't know,
more like ponds or or crowds, crowd fillers might co
hostly you give the example of he didn't mention a
specific group, but that someone got interviewed for you know,
for the media, for TV probably and they already had
(18:12):
no idea what they were what they were talking about,
so someone else had to kind of you know, work
their way in for those you know, kinds of kinds
of protests.
Speaker 1 (18:24):
Is there, what's that? Yeah, let's talk that a little bit. So.
Speaker 4 (18:28):
Sure.
Speaker 1 (18:28):
So one of the things is that crowds on men.
Let me just first speak about ourselves in second about
the broader protests industry. Right, So, and for us, we
try to make sure that everyone is passionate about the
cause and is well informed and that the leaders are
media ready. Right. So that's to say that if you
(18:51):
have a group of fifty people, they're all going to
be passionate about the subject, but some are going to
know more and some are going to know less. The
fact that someone is not intimately familiar with the talking
points and are not equipped to speak to the media
does not mean that they don't care about an issue, right. So,
(19:12):
I think the media kind of like a lot of
people are very camera shy, and a lot of times
that what happens is left wing media goes to a
right wing event. Right wing media goes to a left
wing event, and they go interview like fifty people and
they're like, well, let's just take the two dumbest people
and then amplify that and act as if all these
(19:33):
people are fools, right, or the left wing media tends
to try to make the right wing protesters look racist.
The right wing media tries to make the left wing
protesters kind of look like dumb, pothead hippies, you know, clueless, right, So,
regardless they this is a typical tactic by the media.
(19:55):
So the fact that everyone isn't brilliantly informed doesn't mean
they don't care about an issue. I think that's a
misnomer that I guess, that's my take on it. I mean,
of course they're extreme examples. And again I'm not saying
there aren't groups that might pay homeless people out to protest.
To mean, when we started this company thirteen years ago,
(20:17):
we weren't above doing that, but we don't do that
anymore so because frankly, that's not effective, because ultimately it's
gonna catch up to you, right, like you're always going
to have I mean, if you go to Starbucks, nine
times out of ten, you're gonna get a good coffee.
One time out of ten, you're gonna get a coffee
that sucks. Right, So does that mean Starbucks is a
(20:41):
terrible company that doesn't know how to make coffee. No,
it means that they didn't hire this person, right, and
they should fire them. Right. So I would say it's
the same in protests. Right, Just because you can talk
to a couple of protesters who are not well informed,
doesn't mean that the broader movement lacks legitimacy.
Speaker 4 (20:58):
Okay, Yeah, so that's that's really the the media doing
media things.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
Really the bias media as as we know all media
these days, there's very little objective media, so and and
protests play into that fact. By the way, So so
as a protest organizer, you you build try to build
protests if the what the client wants is media attention,
which isn't always the goal, but if what they are
(21:28):
looking for is media attention, ideally what you want to
do is feed into their preconceived views. Right, So on
the left, for example, like look at the Jusse smolette,
do you know remember this guy. So he was this
like kind of very like see to Dlist actor, uh
part I think African American maybe part African American, who
(21:51):
kind of claimed he was a victim of a hate crime.
And as because of as they sort of unpacked his
his claims that it kind of looked more and more
like like he may not have been telling the truth.
I mean, it looked pretty fanciful. You know, I don't
know the facts of it, but general consensus was that
these were it was kind of fanciful. But left wing
(22:13):
media basically really amplified it because it was like, okay,
it fed into their preconceived kind of notions of Okay,
America's racist, they're white supremacists lurking on every corner, you
know whatever. So uh, protests are the same way. Is
that you you essentially, uh, you're gonna get more coverage
(22:35):
if you have a narrative that goes along with what
someone's already looking to cover.
Speaker 4 (22:40):
That's true. Yeah, of course I've also seen and I
just this is just more of a general question of
how how big of a role the media has in
all of this, because I have seen those pictures of
you know, like on TV it looks like a a
whole crap out has gathered, but then someone from I
(23:03):
don't know, like third fourth floor up takes a picture
and it's really just you know, a host standing in
front of you know, maybe a couple dozen people, and
it's just press camera thing.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
And we've done I mean, but but what you're but
you're what you're looking at, like, can we unpack if
we could, the ethics of this for a second, right,
because what you're trying to do is the what is
the purpose of a protest? I've had this argument with
a lot of people about this, and I think a
lot of people misinterpret what the purpose of a protester.
In your case, you may also be referring to sort
(23:36):
of a press conference, right, a product you release type
of thing. What is the post? In my mind, the
purpose is as a catalyst and as an awareness mechanism. Right.
So the goal of protest is to get people to
notice it. Number one, the people who are standing around
the protest. You know, if you're protesting the Congress, you
(23:56):
want the Congress to see you, right, but also secondarily
to amplify it so that you know people who will
see it on media social media. I think that there
is a misinterpretation. Then a protest is sort of supposed
to be a plebiscite and supposed to be some sort
(24:18):
of indication of this is how the broader country feels
on a subject. So if there's three hundred people who
come out on one side of an issue and fifty
people who come out on the other side of the issue,
there's this perception of, oh, well, then the people are
six to one in favor of that issue. Well, that's
(24:41):
kind of a stupid way of looking at it. That's
misinterpreting what the essence of protest is. What protest is
is a way to get attention and to persuade people,
and to get your messaging in front of as many
people as possible. So if you have three people out
there protesting, you're probably not going to be able to
(25:04):
amplify your message, Whereas if you have fifty people, your
odds are higher. If you have a thousand people, your
odds are even higher. So what commensating people does is
it's like buying an advertisement on TV where you basically say, hey,
we really want you to know about what we're selling.
(25:24):
So instead of selling Cheetos or Doritos or Coca Cola,
we're selling here's why you should be on this side
of the issue.
Speaker 4 (25:33):
Oh okay, Oh like that. So it's to grab the
intention and to amplify the message. Really, it's the gateway too,
and a very effective one too. We've you know, we've
definitely seen that over the last few years. Yes, one
(25:58):
thing that I'm I'm personally also very curious about. I
work in security, I have worked in you know, local
more localized law enforcement. With those larger protests, just the
(26:19):
regular peaceful ones, of course, how do you communicate that
with the with the local authority so that they don't
you know, go riling up the crowd so that they
may have an excuse to break it up. Because we've
seen that well, especially in Amsterdam, we've seen that a
(26:39):
lot over the last few years.
Speaker 1 (26:41):
Well correct, and it's important to develop good relationships with
the local authorities. The way that I look at it
is the best thing you can do as a protester
is to know your rights and to know your responsibilities.
So to know, for example, one of the things that
they always try to make you think is that you
need a permit to demonstrate. You do not need a
permit to demonstrate unless you are unless you have amplified
(27:05):
sound like a giant speaker system staging, or want to
block a street. You do not need a permit to
go outside a building and rally as long as you're
on public ground. So they like you to think you
need a permit, so because that disincentivizes you from acting right.
So you have to know your rights. You have the
right to stand wherever you want, as long as it's
(27:26):
on public ground and as long as you're not blocking people.
So one thing to do is to know your rights,
but to respect law enforcement, because in a free country,
the purpose of law enforcement is not to disband protests,
it is actually to keep protesters safe. So to remind
the authorities that actually the responsibility is not to dissuade protests,
(27:49):
but in fact to keep protesters safe. So I sort
of see local authorities as actually our allies, right, we
want to work with you to make sure that we're
safe and that because is what happens sometimes is you
have you're protesting a company, Well the building security is
trying to kick you out. Well, building a security has
absolutely no authority, so law enforcement. Sometimes you have protesters
(28:14):
out on the street outside of company and the company
is like, oh, well, we'll call the police. I'm like,
please call the police, because the police will remind you
that we have the First Amendment right to be there.
So so so I we generally work very well with police.
You just have to be friendly but firm with them
and remind them of your rights, but not in an
(28:37):
obnoxious manner. Like the thing that some protesters do of
starting to film them is like, try not to escalate,
right Like again, I see like when you start when
you stick a camera in a police officer's face, that
is escalating this situation. Where I use the same tactic,
(28:57):
I use for customer service. If if there is a
sent for example, who is not respecting our rights, we
will respectfully ask for the captain er for the lieutenant
to oversee the situation. And though the higher officers are
going to be more cognizant of the rights of demonstrators
than the lower officers.
Speaker 4 (29:16):
Yeah, yeah, I mean the the local authorities they should
be your friends. Yeah, absolutely correct, And.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
They may not love pro dealing with protesters, but it
is part of their job and and most of them
have no problem with us. And but establishing a clear
line of communication is critical.
Speaker 4 (29:39):
Yeah, no, I absolutely understand that. And it's something like
you talked about building security and them calling the police.
It's it's oftentimes is just speaking from my my role
and experience as someone working in security. It is more
because it's seen as a as a nuisance really, and
they're they're trying to yea, you know, they're not supposed
(30:04):
to be here.
Speaker 1 (30:04):
Yeah, well yeah, it's in a free country, you can
be a little bit of a nuisance. So that's the thing.
So it's okay. So so the fact that the building
security doesn't like it, that's that's their problem, you know
what I mean. So, but so, but part of it
is knowing your rights because a lot of people times
the building security will act as if they're police officers
and be like, oh, you have to go now and
(30:27):
order you as if so people. I always train the
people who run our protests to be cognizant of their rights.
Speaker 4 (30:33):
Unfortunately, there are definitely security officers.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
A lot of them are off duty cops or former
police officers, so they're used to having authority in those situations,
but they don't have authority. Building security has no authority
other than to call the police, which is a good thing.
So so yeah, so millionial rights is important, but respecting
local law enforcement and not escalating confrontation with them is
(30:59):
import right, Like to me, you only take your camera
out in the very as a very last resort because
I think it's very escalatory when people do that.
Speaker 4 (31:10):
It is it, Yeah, it most demply is. I would
absolutely well or you know, at least very much dislike it.
If you know, what is a peaceful protest. It happens
too much nowadays.
Speaker 1 (31:24):
Well, the problem is that a lot of the antifa
antifa type people, right, and there's kind of this sort
of overlap with the occupy movement. I'll get to why
the Occupy movement was the biggest failure of any movement
in protest history in a second. But the Antifa type people,
(31:45):
the problem is, these guys are vaguely anarchists. So for
me as a capitalist, I respect authority, right, I respect
police officers, and I believe that they actually facillit help
me do my job easier because they protect us from
any one who's hostile. Now, the problem with the Antifa,
you know, Occupy type people, or the equivalent folks on
(32:07):
the right, is that they ultimately don't respect law enforcement.
They are vaguely anarchists, so they're for them. They don't
want to work with law enforcement, and they want to
break the law to some degree. Some of them want
to get arrested. So that's the challenge. It's funny because
you mentioned that you could have had some involvement with Occupy.
Tell me if I'm wrong. But in my thesis is
(32:29):
Occupy was probably the least successful movement in protest history.
And I'll tell you why. I rate success based on
the number of people involved to what was ultimately achieved. Right,
So if you think about it and the climate that
they operate in, so you're talking about two thousand and
nine twenty ten, right, this is the Great Recession, right,
(32:51):
and the you know, the banks had screwed people over,
you know, the corporate America had screwed people over. Every
people were out of jobs, right, you know, and we
had a left wing president, you know Obama at least
you know at the time, he was thought to be
a left wing president. He tended to be more. But
the point is these these uh, these occupied people, they
(33:13):
came out, they had no specific demands, right, They had
no specific ask They were just sort of camping in
Wall Street and around the country. They had no specific demands, right,
they should have said you were and they weren't aiming
at the right people. They were saying, yeah, dude, corporations
(33:34):
suck man, right, Okay. It made it so easy for
politicians to pay lip service and say, yes, you're right,
the corporations do suck, but not take action. No CEOs
were in prison, no legislation was really made. These companies
(33:54):
that they were protesting now are more profitable than ever,
and many of the EXECUS Natives who are executives then
are still executives now. So my point is it was
the one of the biggest failures of all time, given
how many people were out there that you had, at
least in the United States, essentially a left wing president
(34:15):
and a left wing majority, huge majority, and both of
the legislation native branches the Senate in the House. Right.
If there was any time where you could pass legislation
to basically say we are going to change American corporate structure,
it would have been under occupy and they fundamentally failed.
So it's one of the biggest failures in protest history.
Speaker 4 (34:38):
Unfortunately, I am going to have to agree with you
on that. It had so much potential. But you know,
thinking back to it, I was part of back then
Occupy Harlem and a little bit of occupying Amsterdam. Of
course that was the you know, the biggest one here
in the Netherlands. Imagine. It was a lot of talk about,
(35:01):
you know, like, oh, the one percent is bad, we
have to like the defeat or something the the one percent.
But no no plan, no action, yeah, no no demands
or whatever it is just to do.
Speaker 1 (35:18):
In advocacy, I'll give you free advice if you're I
would tell you this if you're my client, but I'm
gonna give all of your listeners just for your show
some free advice, thank you very much. Do not make
demands that make it easy for politicians to give you
lip service, but not consequentially act right. So what occupy
(35:40):
did is it made it super easy. They made it
super easy for politicians to pay them lip service, to
agree in principle, yes the one percent, yes the companies
are bad, but not consequentially act like. That is the
worst thing you can do as a protest. You need
to say, you need, we expect, we have ten demands,
(36:02):
we want all ten. Maybe we'll settle for five, but
we're not settling for zero.
Speaker 4 (36:08):
Yeah, yeah, no. I thinking back, you know to those
times it was and unfortunately it was mostly just a
bunch of hippies, yeah, you know, screaming, you know, like
and these were people who had.
Speaker 1 (36:26):
No experience with advocacy, so they don't fully they didn't
fully understand. And I think on one level, it was
admirable that they didn't want to have tap down leadership
because this the whole thing was about dismantling corporate hierarchies,
so they basically they didn't want to have top down leadership.
But on the other hand, that made it impossible for
(36:47):
them to negotiate from a position of strength and from
a position of hey, these are our demands and this
is what we've even to say, Hey, this is what
we've voted on. But they they lacked that coherent message.
So what they they did was politicians paid lip service.
Ultimately the sort of the economy recovered, and then the
(37:08):
demands for their their their ultimately a lot you know
it waned and then boom uh you're gonna have to
wait for another recession to actually build a movement like that.
Speaker 4 (37:19):
I would say, yeah, yeah, I know, it's it's really Indeed,
was also a matter of i mean, the the horizontal
power structure. Let's say it's a it's a very good idea,
but you know, if everybody is in control, nobody is
in control.
Speaker 1 (37:38):
Real well, I think you have to have this mix,
right Like for example, BLM started that way and then
they had top down leadership. But then their leadership were
kind of like hucksters, right like they basically like used
all the money to get themselves like villas and and
stuff like that. Right, So essentially the downside of having
leaders is leaders are naturally corrupt. I mean people power
(38:00):
corrupts as they say, and I don't know these people. Well,
I do actually know the people in BLM. I was
about to say I don't know them, but I actually
do know some of them because some of these guys
actually contacted me about I don't know, what is it
twenty twenty five, about ten years ago, so when BLM started.
So people think BLM started in twenty twenty because it
probably gained the most prominence with the George Floyd, but
(38:24):
it actually started closer to twenty fourteen fifteen, And those
guys actually came to me for advice and I gave
them advice that they didn't take my advice. So so
it's it's very interesting. I basically said it should be
about black economic empowerment and basically bringing ownership in the
black community to basically elevate the black family, elevate black businesses,
(38:49):
to actually fundamentally regain power because from money and ownership
is power. So the fundamentals of why black people are
oppressed in the United States is the lack of power
of money and ownership so that no one actually has
to compete for their vote, you know what I mean.
And the other thing is if everybody, if they know
you're going to be Democrat one hundred percent of the time.
(39:10):
Why would the Democrats do anything for you? Right, you
have to be like, I'm a swing voter. You I'm
gonna vote for whoever's gonna advance my cause. So I
gave them that advice, you know. Instead they went this
other direction, which scored them some temporary wins. But now
every single thing that they've advocated for has been repealed
under this administration because the end of the day, what
(39:33):
they were asking for was fundamentally unfair, you know, and
and yeah, so it's and and stupid. So you know,
defund the police, DEI all this stuff which has just
been a total mess and is being dismantled. If they
had argued for economic empowerment, they would black people would
be in a much much better place than they are
(39:55):
today in the United States.
Speaker 4 (39:57):
Yeah, no, absolutely, I I very much agree with that.
That would would have been there would have been much better. Instead,
they indeed made it about about violence and specifically the unfortunately,
of course, the you know, the the white versus black,
(40:18):
the white man versus the black man, and all of that.
It's it's all it's too it's too basic, and it'll
get you some it'll get again.
Speaker 1 (40:26):
It was so performative. All the companies were basically like, oh, yeah,
like we love d company. Horror America loves d I
because they're basically like instead of actually, like, for example,
Coca Cola murders millions of black people, you know, every
year honestly with the diabetes and heart disease caused by
(40:47):
their products. I mean, like, I mean, murders is a
strong word. But you know, they they market these products
to Black Americans specifically, right, Like go it sounds like
you spell a lot of time in the United States.
Go look at the ads right with like McDonald's or
Coca Cola. They market to black people specifically. Uh, and
they market some of their most sugary products right to
(41:12):
the black community, right, So they're they're they're killing the
black people with their products. But then they're like, oh, well,
let's all work. Then we love black people. We have
like a black guy on the board, so don't complaint.
Shut shut the fuck up. Yeah, sorry, but that's what
DEI lets them do. It's basically like, hey, we we
have two black women on the board, so don't worry
(41:34):
about the fact that we're you know, destroying black health.
In this country with with you know, all this food.
Speaker 4 (41:43):
Yeah, it's it's all very performative. Just like the month
of June with with pride. For example, a lot of
companies all of a sudden have a rainbow black hanging
or on social media, you know, a a rainbow profileure
like oh, you know, we love the gays right as
long you spend money on us.
Speaker 1 (42:04):
Yep, that's true.
Speaker 4 (42:08):
Yeah, all very performative, and it works every year, every
year again.
Speaker 1 (42:14):
And like that's what I was saying. If you're running
a process movement and your goal is policy change, don't
ever let people get away with performative. Yeah, I mean,
And of course it's the case on the right too.
I mean, people are asking about Epstein and instead Trump
is like, oh, well, I demand that the Washington Commander's
(42:35):
football team be renamed to the Redskins. Right, So it's
like he he he's performing kind of for his base,
like on that right, he's trying to sort of distract
from like the real thing by kind of feeding them
red meat on this kind of like cultural wedge issue.
So try not to fall through the performative if your
(42:55):
goal is policy, if your goal.
Speaker 4 (42:57):
Is policy, yeah, no, no, that's that's yeah, the performance
is it is nice. It you know, it'll it'll get
you some some sympathy, but no, no real change unfortunately happens. Yeah,
let's say, let's two make it a little lighter. Uh,
this has been very heavy. I I do absolutely love it.
(43:18):
But you also do a lot of like product launches
and PR campaigns. And I was actually just talking about
that with a colleague of mine in the car today.
I'm luckily and lucky enough to be able to carpol
with him and too to him, it really sounded. And
(43:42):
please do correct me if I'm if I'm wrong in
that that you can make somebody, let's say, famous from
pretty much scratched just by hiring people to be I
don't know, fans or some paparazza.
Speaker 1 (43:56):
Yeah, and that would be a one time thing, but
over time, yeah, and same with a product. So so
I'll talk a little bit about like PR stunts, Like
one thing we want to do is in a PR stunt,
we want to draw the right kind of attention to
the product. One of my favorite ones that we did
was this one called Bankers against Bitcoin, where we had
you know, this was in the earlier days of bitcoin.
(44:19):
We got hired by a large bitcoin company to basically
do these have a staged apposition of these bankers dressed
in like old frumpy suits, you know, protesting against bitcoin
because they couldn't line their pockets like they do, you know,
without bitcoin. So so that was kind of a funny one, right,
(44:41):
one of the other ones that I like, and kind
of less of a pr stunt, but more kind of
on the fun side. As we've staged weddings before, So
we had this one wedding where we were hired by
a very very wealthy couple from abroad, where it was
a very wealthy gentleman from another country who was marrying
(45:02):
kind of a lady from blonde lady from America who
was kind of maybe like of not a great uh not,
did not come from a great family exactly like I
guess you could say, like kind of like trailer park vibes.
I don't mean that in a negative way, no, but
I understand, yeah, you not the kind of not the
kind of girl that you would want to bring home
to two very wealthy parents from abroad, right, Like, So
(45:26):
they were like, okay, well we need like a better
caliber of audience for the wedding to be her friends. Right.
So instead of like the type of people who probably
she associated with, they wanted to be like kind of
young professionals like I don't know, people like like maybe
who look like me, right, So so we stay we
(45:47):
had I think like one hundred or two hundred young
professionals all as like guests for this wedding, right to
be her friends. But then it got weirder because like
a week before the wedding, they were like, oh, well,
we actually also need the family, right. So they were like, okay,
we need some uncles, some aunts, right, So we did
the same thing. And then like maybe like literally like
(46:08):
three days before the wedding, they're like, okay, well we
didn't think about this, but we need a father of
the bride. So I even provided the dad too. I
was like, I need like a white man, I like
about sixty five years old, you know, and I need
him to cry as he's walking down the aisle with
his daughter. So I did. It was like perfect. So,
but what's what was funny is I told everybody everybody
(46:30):
needs like this crazy backstory because the family is gonna
ask O, how do you know her? Right? So I said,
I had everybody preparing for like, you know, a long time,
like what you know, who are we how do we
know her? But then at the end of the day,
none of the family, none of the groom's family even
spoke English, so it was all unnecessary.
Speaker 4 (46:52):
Oh okay, well that's that's a whole lot of a
whole lot of effort waste system for Yeah.
Speaker 1 (46:58):
But but the point is that the goal was to
have credible people. And as far as I know, they're
still married.
Speaker 4 (47:03):
Well that's that's great results.
Speaker 1 (47:05):
So mom and dad approved.
Speaker 4 (47:08):
Well that's that's great. Actually, oh that's.
Speaker 1 (47:13):
You imagine very strange events. I would I'd put it that.
Speaker 4 (47:16):
Way, yeah, I I I. Yeah, that is definitely something
that I wouldn't have thought of, Like, you know, literally
I need better friends. I'm gonna I'm gonna hire better friends.
Speaker 1 (47:33):
Well it's available. I mean, it's kind of expensive. I
don't necessarily think it's a good fit for everybody. But
for what they were looking for it.
Speaker 4 (47:40):
It was love conquers all. I guess that's right.
Speaker 1 (47:44):
That's right.
Speaker 4 (47:45):
And with those those backstories, do you let the people
write that out themselves because they kind of have to
be sometimes coordinated.
Speaker 1 (47:55):
Well, I'll tell you this. It really all these type
of things and every everything we do in terms of
the narrative, it's a culmination of us in the client.
So sometimes the client has very very specific requests and
it's basically like crowds on man execute it. Sometimes it
is they're like, you're the expert, here's what we're looking
(48:18):
to do. You say, whatever you need that's in furtherance
of those objectives.
Speaker 4 (48:24):
Okay, okay, because I can't imagine that, you know, especially
with you know, like aunts and uncles, you know, like
the wedding you mentioned, if they are together, you know
that the backstory has two it.
Speaker 1 (48:40):
Has to be up. Yeah. Oh yeah, well we will
make sure of that. I mean, well that this is
this is kind of a more unique type of event.
We don't stage weddings every week, but you know we
it was. It was certainly a fun one and we
like to do this type of thing.
Speaker 4 (48:59):
Yeah no, yeah, it sounds like like a lot of fun.
Sounds like a great challenge as well. But and you
mentioned the was it bankers against bitcoins? Yeah yeah, so
you provided the opposition, yes, how does.
Speaker 1 (49:20):
Well in this case, it was a tongue in cheek
kind of thing. It wasn't meant to be serious. But
in other cases we will actually provide the opposition that
is serious. So in this case, it was like it
was supposed to be a joke. Right, it was so ridiculous.
I think no one would actually interpret this is as serious.
But in other cases that wasn't It wouldn't have been
(49:40):
the case.
Speaker 4 (49:41):
So how does how would that work?
Speaker 2 (49:44):
Like?
Speaker 1 (49:44):
Wouldn't you put it this way? You were defined both
by who you are, what you are for, but you
were also defined as what is against you think about
the movie? One old example is the movie Passion of
the Christ, Remember that one from the early two thousands,
Mel Gibson. Yeah, well the the Christians, right, the religious Christians,
(50:06):
they really protested it. They were so mad against it.
But that actually made it wasn't gonna be that popular
of a movie, but because of all the backlash, it
became popular. So sometimes you create your own opposition to
create backlash, to create more attention, which then helps your
product or your cause.
Speaker 4 (50:26):
Oh like that? Okay?
Speaker 1 (50:29):
You define yourself by your opposition, because if they don't
want you to see it, how good must it be?
If they don't want you to see it?
Speaker 4 (50:36):
That is most definitely true. And that is that's also
very much human nature. Like you tell us to to
not do something, you tell us to not you know,
watch that movie.
Speaker 1 (50:48):
That's the one I want to watch. If yeah, you
say you can watch any of them except this one,
then then they want to watch it. There's something about
us that want to want the the forbidden thing. Number one.
But also that if if the right people are opposing you,
let's just say it's a conservative politician and uh, you know,
(51:10):
I don't know. I mean, like I'll use a Dutch example.
If you know, uh, mister Wilders right is out there
speaking and and people who are you know, dirty hippies
are out there protesting him. That helps him He says,
this is who I'm against, you know what I mean?
Of course I know, of course they're protesting me. Like
it helps him that if they were protesting him, was like,
(51:33):
you know, or if people in burkas were protesting him
or or the whatever, he'd be like, yes, they are protesting,
and it's good. That's that's what I'm up against, you
see what I'm saying. Like, So to use a Dutch example,
that would be an example of someone who would probably
want to have protesters against.
Speaker 4 (51:52):
Them, because it's it means that he is doing agast job.
Speaker 1 (51:57):
He means correct with advocating his position. If they are coming.
Speaker 4 (52:02):
After if they feel, you know this, this passionate about it,
if they feel passionate about enough about it that they
go out of their way to correct protest.
Speaker 1 (52:13):
That's a very effactive way. But sometimes we have to
catalyze that, so you know we'll do that.
Speaker 4 (52:18):
Oh okay.
Speaker 1 (52:20):
So so for example, like let's just say an advocate,
like a politician, wanted to have the opposition and then
be like these are the people and then have them
be totally ridiculous, like I was using the example of Wilders.
If people are we're out there being like, I mean,
it's just totally hypothetical, being like we demand shari A
(52:40):
law today, right, and they're protesting Wilders, he would like that.
He'd be like, yeah, this is who I'm up against.
You know, like that would help him because it would
help him say I am advocating common sense and these
people are advocating Islamic law, which is what he says
he opposed.
Speaker 4 (53:00):
Right. He says a lot of things.
Speaker 1 (53:04):
I know what it is with the right wing populace.
They all have ridiculous hair. Whether it's Trump or Wilders
or the gentleman in Argentina mil A, they all have
just ridiculous hairstyles.
Speaker 4 (53:18):
Boris Johnson Oris in the UK.
Speaker 1 (53:21):
Yeah, yeah, they all, they all look totally ridiculous. It's
Bewilders is like, looks were almost very similar, kind of
like a Trump is kind of the weird, strange hair.
I hope he won't be offended with me saying that,
but but but.
Speaker 4 (53:39):
Yeah, looking man, Yeah, he is not the the most
stereotypical Dutch, let's say.
Speaker 1 (53:48):
Yeah, you think of when you think of the Dutch,
you think are kind of quiet, reserved, business like, you know,
like I think of mister mister Ruta, you know, the
the form were Prime minister, who's the yea, he feels Dutch.
He's very kind of business like, very diplomatic, very kind
(54:08):
of knows what the right thing to say, but doesn't
doesn't kind of say anything onundiplomatic. But yeah, Wilders is
not your typical Dutch what you think of when you
think of a Dutch politician, That's that's for sure.
Speaker 4 (54:21):
Yeah, No, absolutely, like you know, and speaking on you know,
the whole international thing, do you work internationally or are
you like, do you.
Speaker 1 (54:32):
Very selective basis? So, so, as we talked about earlier
in the program, a lot of nations, even kind of
countries you think of as free countries, don't have the
same free speech protections as United States, so we have
to be careful. We do marketing events and all of
that kind of thing abroad, for sure, but in terms
(54:52):
of like advocacy and politics, we're very careful of what
we do abroad. So it's it's it's not common for
us to do that, but it's more common for us
to involve ourselves in the United States in an international dispute.
So sometimes if there's an international dispute that comes to
the United States in some way, then we'll very much
involve it because you know, I have a background in
(55:13):
international affairs, so I'm pretty well versed in kind of
international kind of issues. So it helps us effectively serve
our clients.
Speaker 4 (55:22):
Okay, we recently hear in the Netherlands at the NATO
Top of course, which is a very international event. There
was quite a lot to do about it. Actually, would
that be an event that you feel would be safe
enough to involve yourself in or is that in.
Speaker 1 (55:44):
What manner though, Like what would be be protest? I
think part of the question is, like, if someone asks
me to protest NATO, I'd be like a little nervous
to say, Okay, well, I don't want to take money
from kind of the people who I would fear would
be have the interest in in such a thing. So
(56:04):
so that would be my kind of reservation. But if
if you're saying, hey, NATO, we well, like let's just
imagine this, right, Let's just imagine there's some humanitarian catastrophe
in Africa and we want NATO to involve themselves in that.
We would totally do a demonstration saying NATO do the
(56:27):
right thing and help the people of whatever country it is.
So yeah, maybe something like that.
Speaker 4 (56:33):
Sure, Okay, And I'm looking at the looking at the time.
So I guess as a final question, I since ever
since I got the news that I you know, I'm
gonna gonna host you, which I'm very thankful for, I
went down a major rabbit hole, one that I haven't
(56:56):
found myself in yet. So I guess, as a final question,
how many of the protests that we see are organic
and how many are set up?
Speaker 1 (57:09):
Ah, there's no such thing as an organic protest. It
doesn't exist. And that's not a bad thing because the
reality is is that my definition of organic is to
people have some incentive to do it. Right. So like,
let me just like work you through what someone might
think of as an organic protest that isn't right. Let's
(57:30):
just say you got a couple of moms get together
at the school, right, they say, well, the textbooks they're
too old, right, that we need new textbooks in the school. Well,
they go and they organize, They get ten other moms
and you know, they hold signs at the school board meetings.
They say we need better textbooks, right, and they write
(57:52):
they call they have meetings. Right. Well, you think, oh,
that's very organic. You know, they didn't get compensation. There
wasn't some big group from whatever supporting it. But at
the end of the day, these women, I guarantee you
they weren't maids, janitors, housekeepers being able to do that.
These were women who had flexible jobs or men or
(58:14):
husbands who work, or they they they had funding to
be able to do this and to take all of
this time and energy and maybe and some money to
be able to spend all these resources and that is
not available to ordinary people in our country, right because
they're too busy working and childcare. I mean in the Netherlands,
(58:36):
maybe this isn't the case, but in the United States,
you know, if you're making hourly wage, you have no
time to protest whatsopen?
Speaker 4 (58:44):
No, definitely not.
Speaker 1 (58:46):
So so at the end of the day, that isn't
even organic. I mean it's organic's yeah, they have genuine beliefs. No,
in one sense it's all none of it is organic,
and the other sense, it's most of it's organic. I
think where you see where I am where I think
it is organic because most people out there protesting believe
in the cause. They just have other reasons for doing it, right,
(59:09):
Like people want to flex on Instagram. Labor unions incentivize
them obviously. Companies like US, you know ours, you know,
compensate people.
Speaker 4 (59:19):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (59:19):
Some people going to protest to get laid, Like think
about Woodstock. I mean the hippies were there to smoke
weed and get laid. I mean Vietnam was sort of
protesting Vietnam all that that's kind of secondary, but they
were there to smoke weed and get laid, right, So
people have different incentives for being somewhere and that's okay. So,
but I think that there's this false dichotomy between astro
(59:40):
turf organic and the reality is every movement from gay rights,
civil rights, whatever, has been funded. There's backed by interests.
But that's okay. Focus on the talking points. Do you
agree with what they're espousing or do you disagree? And
stop trying to play this like crazy conspiracy game of
(01:00:00):
who's behind it? Because I guarantee you there's someone behind it.
Speaker 4 (01:00:03):
Wow. Okay, I wasn't expecting that answer. But thank you
very much for your for your clarity, for your your
for your honesty. Wow okay, that's but yeah, no, it's
absolutely it makes a lot of sense. And you know,
(01:00:24):
as you said, the you know, the the Mothers for example, Yeah,
they they would have. If you have the time too,
you know, go out and protest and make those signs.
Then that's a fun protest.
Speaker 1 (01:00:40):
It's being funded just in a different way.
Speaker 4 (01:00:43):
Yeah. Yeah, no, because they obviously they don't they don't
have to work or have to work as as much.
Speaker 1 (01:00:51):
Yeah exactly.
Speaker 4 (01:00:52):
Yeah. Yeah, oh okay, so it's not.
Speaker 1 (01:00:57):
But but people shouldn't. People need to stop fixingaing on
the incentives of the protesters and start fixating on do
they like what the protesters are saying, do they agree
or do they disagree? Because, as I said earlier, the
purpose of a protest is a catalyst and an awareness mechanism.
It's not an indication of where people are. So if
(01:01:20):
you feel like thousands of people protesting, that doesn't mean
that the rest of the country agrees with them. That
just means that's what they were there to do. Right,
It's pay attention. If you don't agree with them, you
don't have to worry.
Speaker 4 (01:01:34):
Focus on the message.
Speaker 1 (01:01:35):
Focus on the message the people right protest. What protest
accomplishes is it gets the message in front of a
lot of people. It then needs to grow from there.
Speaker 4 (01:01:43):
All right, well, I guess with that final final piece
of advice, I thank you very much for your for
your time. Thank you very much for for everything that
you have shared. It's clear a lot of things up
for for me, at least, I hope for the the
(01:02:03):
audience as well. Where can the where can the good
people find you? Where can they you know, find you
if they so wish to make use of your services?
Speaker 1 (01:02:14):
Www dot crowdsondemand dot com. That's crowdsondemand dot com and
if you want to follow me on Twitter slash x,
it's at CEO. My name so CEO at a sword
so uh if if they want to do that, so, yeah,
feel free to get in touch and uh. But the
reason I go on these shows is it for publicity
(01:02:37):
so much as to clarify all the misinformation that is
out there about us. So I hope I did that
for you and your audience, and it was like it
was a great, really fun spending this hour with you.
Speaker 4 (01:02:49):
Yeah. No. Likewise, as I said, it definitely cleared up
a lot of things for me. I knew very little
about it and was perhaps a little too much still
in the conspiracy side of things, but this is definitely
clear cleared it up for me and to the audience.
If you have any further questions, if you know this
(01:03:12):
has maybe cleared up some things for you, please do
leave them in the comments down below or contact us
on Instagram TikTok. We do now have a website as well.
I believe that should be across the ponds dot UK.
I am not too sure about that, but it will
(01:03:34):
of course be all in the video description down below.
If you liked this video, do give the like, share
it with well, with everyone you know. These are the
kind of things that should be cleared up, the misconceptions
that should be cleared up. Make sure to subscribe to
(01:03:55):
the channel with the notification belt on so you do
get notified when we go live again whenever we upload
a new episode of the across the podcast again. So
thank you all very much for watching. Thank you all
very much for listening until next time. Bye bye one.
Speaker 5 (01:05:01):
Attttttttt cott Cotection contact, intention, attent and defects and constett
(01:05:38):
const