Reality, Myth & Media with Jin The Ninja

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
You know, for effect, Dear our aliens.

Speaker 2 (00:07):
Our difference is worldwide would vanish if we were facing
an alien threat. Perhaps we need some outside universal threat
to make us recognize this common bound.

Speaker 3 (00:27):
Breaking news tonight, Sean Diddy Combs has been arrested in
an unhappy hotel.

Speaker 1 (00:37):
There's a relation to some comments that you made on
a Facebook page.

Speaker 4 (00:46):
This is a Fox News alert. The Epstein files have
been released.

Speaker 1 (00:51):
Across the Pond. You're looking at now, sir.

Speaker 4 (00:55):
Everything that happens now is happening for sure. Now, welcome all,
Welcome back to Across the Pond, the podcast that dares
to uncover the mysteries lurking beyond the veil of reality.
From government cover ups and secret experiments to hauntings, cryptids

(01:19):
and UFO encounters, we explore the unexplained and the conspiracies
that keep them hidden. And for today, we have an
amazing guest on the show. One that has been a
a semi regular on my own, my own show, Gerard Pagans,

(01:40):
and one that I look I'm looking very very much
forward to talking again. But here on Across the Pond,
so Jin the Ninja, what's up man? Thanks for thanks
for joining, Thanks for coming on.

Speaker 3 (01:54):
What's Up sign, I'm so glad to be here. Thank
you so much. I know you reached out. Like a
month ago, I had a family thing I had to
take care of, so thank you so much for giving
that grace and that space to be able to you know,
retool and reschedule. And I want to shout out like
a cross the Pond. I've listened to several episodes now,
great show. You guys have great discussions. I do love
a roundtable where people have they don't have to necessarily agree.

(02:18):
I'm into this kind of decoherence of agreement right now,
disagreement but not in a contentious way. And I want
to shout out also Matt Mura, simply because he did
what you made a double episode, incredible double episode on
your show grey Horn Pagans. Of course, I've been on
that show many times, many times, but a few times,

(02:38):
and I greatly appreciate it, especially right at the beginning.
You were like a true homie. So thank you so much. Time,
very much appreciate it. I thank you Andie it was
great to me. I also meet you on you didn't
get an amazing shout out.

Speaker 1 (02:53):
It's absolutely fine. You don't worry. I was just wondering
who you were talking about just then. It seems to
be a different person and that I know.

Speaker 4 (03:00):
But we of course have the the big boss man
here with us as well, doctor not as Evil allegedly. Wow,
and uh yeah, I thought like since we are such
a little different personalities and you know, there is so

(03:21):
much happening in the world, like kind of the the
topic for today, and like, of course we'll know, we'll
be further, we'll see where the flow takes us. But
kind of our ideas of well, I guess quite literally
what this world is coming to? You know what, what
do we see for the future? Are we just gonna

(03:42):
get nuclear war? Is like is this is this going
to be the end? Or is it like just a
you know, is it recked in rock? Is it the
end times?

Speaker 5 (03:53):
Is it?

Speaker 4 (03:55):
You know, like was it? What's it going to be? Like?
You know, such different per so now these I think
that could make for a very interesting discussion. And I mean,
like looking at the sale of the world today, like
it changes well by the minute almost.

Speaker 3 (04:14):
It's very smoke like, very obscurent.

Speaker 4 (04:17):
Yeah, yeah, very like even with the most recent thing
about the seas fire between Iran and Israel l like
I I saw something about that this morning that like
there was this official cease fire, but like Iran didn't
know there was a cease fire, which is like, how

(04:40):
how do you how do you do?

Speaker 3 (04:42):
That's my position, nothing ever happens, the bros stay winning.
It really is it all wars, fake war. Since the
advent of mass media, all war is not really what
they say it is, and even what they show us
is not really what is necessarily happening on the ground.
I just I am in total disbelief of it all,

(05:04):
Like they have not. I have not recaptured by media
in any capacity. But that's just me. I don't think
I'm better than anyone, but I'm just That's where I'm
at with it.

Speaker 1 (05:13):
No, that's exactly right. It's all glorified, isn't it. On
the media It's doom, gloom, the end of the world.
But feet on the ground was a completely different story.

Speaker 4 (05:25):
Yeah, framing helps a lot with with that as well.
And if there's one thing that the the media, the
established media is good at, it's framing. Like also, you know,
quite quite literally, I've seen those those pictures that like
on screen it looks like you know, the the presenter

(05:48):
is in front of a like a huge crowd of
protesters like banners and everything, and then you see as
shots that like someone made from I don't like third
floor up or throw up and it's you know, yeah,
it's a crowd, but like no less than what ten
twenty people.

Speaker 1 (06:06):
It's about two or three deep, isn't it, And they
make it look like it's thousands of people.

Speaker 4 (06:12):
Yeah, And they'll they'll actually do that with like duplication
as well, Like they'll just duplicate the the background like
kind of the like you would do on the like
the old school social media kind of websites where your
background is just like several pictures of like one one cat.

Speaker 1 (06:34):
Yeah, you've got the same banner five or six times,
going further and further back in the crowd.

Speaker 4 (06:39):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1 (06:40):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (06:43):
So it's nothing is more sort of magical than a photograph,
right or an AI image Hey.

Speaker 1 (06:50):
Images, Now, yeah, you don't know what's real and what
isn't now.

Speaker 3 (06:54):
Right, it blurs the uncanny Valley and Stein you really
hit it when you said like framing matters, Yes, narrative
framing matters, and if people that's I'm not saying that
you guys don't talk about that, but for me, that's
like the entire locust or focus of my show is
about metamagic and meta reality. So I really feel like

(07:17):
it framing really matters. Like if you say the like
I'm a big aonic shift person. People who follow me
on Twitter, they'll know I'm like an an of the
Daughter person. I talk about it all the time, I
host spaces on it. It's like a very It's very
topical for me right now. But I mean, I'm not
in the oto or a toele make. I just borrow

(07:39):
some of the ideas because they're interesting, and I think
it maps very nicely onto a Buddhist a gnostic framework,
and I think I make a case for it. So
but I just want to say that framing does matter.
So if you say, like the a on is going
to be like a positive one or like one that
you can take control of you like your own will
or your own you have own your own agency. It's

(08:00):
not You're not a victim, you're not a passive recipient,
You're an active participant. I think that that changes the
whole narrative for me. It does.

Speaker 4 (08:11):
Anyway, I think you're you're hitting the nail on the
hat with with that one, because so many people who
I have been black pilled, you know, who are like
kind of you know, still on the depression that, oh,
I know everything is doom and gloom and you know
the role is about to end in like nuclear war.

(08:31):
Every moment they believe, they don't you know, that they're
not actively participating in it. You know, they they can't
do anything about it. You know, they're just regular Joe
on the couch watching the eight o'clock news and you know,
being scared and being afraid of the future. But I mean,

(08:54):
jin like as you know, you and I like to do,
we look, we look at it a deeper level, and
it is exactly like through through that fear that you
are actively participating.

Speaker 3 (09:09):
Absolutely. I actually have a question for the two of you.
This might be a little radical, but I'll answer verse
so i'll buffer it a little right with my own
opinion is so nuclear weapons, I'm not saying they're not
one hundred percent real, but I am open to the
possibility that they are not quite how they frame it,

(09:31):
how it's framed in a mainstream scientific sort of expression,
because I kind of think that they are have an
illuminant quality if you sort of see atomic mushroom clouds.
And as someone who considers themselves like a mass media
archivist in a way, it's very difficult to find archival

(09:53):
photographs of mushroom clods. I'm not saying they don't exist,
of course, there are some, and it's it's rare. It's
hard to find. So I just think that perhaps what
they frame as nuclear is not quite there there.

Speaker 1 (10:12):
Do you want to go first, din or John? Me
to go first?

Speaker 4 (10:15):
I'm I'm gonna have to too similar a bit on
this one, So you you go.

Speaker 1 (10:20):
First, I'll go first. I'll go first. I'll go from
the layman's terms rather than the spiritual kind of side
of things, and that nuclear I'm not one hundred percent sure.
I'm pretty pretty down with you there, Jinn. To be honest,
the videos that we all saw of the houses being
obliterated in the tests and things like that, nobody asks

(10:43):
why doesn't the camera move, Why hasn't the camera been shaky,
Why hasn't the camera melted? Nobody asked that kind of questions.
My opinion, those test videos are all fake. They're all
miniatures that are just obliterated. To make to look like
this is what nuclear does. It's terrifying. Everybody's stay in

(11:05):
line or nuclear is coming. And as for nuclear nowadays,
when was the last time anyone saw a nuclear weapon
being detonated. You hear about them mode they've tested one underground,
they've tested this. For me, I think nuclear is just

(11:28):
a deterrent and that's it. I don't think it's as
bad as everyone says. That's my opinion.

Speaker 3 (11:35):
I have to second that. Just the John Miersheimer. You
hear his name like being spoken up, like he's the
real politics, real diplomacy. Yeah, real diplomacy is based on
like a rules based order enforced with nuclear weapons. It's
like a perfect way to however you envision the future
of the world, like it's a perfect way to get

(11:55):
people to do what you want.

Speaker 1 (11:56):
Yeah, that's exactly it. It was in the old days. If
you go a few hundred years ago, people would say,
if you don't do this, you don't do that, the
devil will get you. The devil was used back then.
But as religions sort of faded out from everyday society
and people started to get more scientific, that's when nuclear

(12:17):
suddenly came in. Oh, these people have got nuclear weapons.
These people are bad and they're going to do that.
It just became more of that kind of deterrent.

Speaker 4 (12:28):
It is the ultimate scare tactic. Of course, it is
the ultimate you know, scary thing that you know might
be used like oh, you know, if these countries don't
you know, don't do as we say, or you know,
if you like you regular folks like don't fall in line,
you know, they might drop the bomb. You know, It's

(12:51):
it's not even like they're not it's it also like
got that that like it's not even you know, they're
not even talking about atomic bombs or whatever. It's you know,
they're all talking about bombs. And if they're calling it something,
they're calling it nuclear because that sounds scarier, I think.

(13:18):
You know, if you're talking about an atomic bomb, yeah, okay, cool.
But if you're talking about a nuclear bomb, you know,
for some reason, it's it's a lot more it sounds
a lot more serious. It sounds a lot more like
like a threat.

Speaker 1 (13:33):
Because people know what nuclear is, don't they They've seen
obviously with Chernobyl three Mile Island. They know what it
can do. So you pin that onto a bomb, and.

Speaker 4 (13:45):
Then some think that is, you know, that can be carried,
it can be dropped at you know, any location as
you wish. Really, I think, I don't, I don't know.
I I do like the I do like the arguments
about the mushroom clouds, like we don't, you know, we

(14:08):
don't see any more pictures like especially after you know,
World War two, like the Hiroshima, Nagasaki, you know, or
some of the testing things. We'll see that. Then again,
you know, there is a lot like just so much

(14:30):
TNT like basic explosives involved with it as well, just
to to literally get it to blow up and and spread.
So I think that you know, nuclear or nuclear power
and of itself, we should be using more of it

(14:54):
because it is a very very clean, very powerful energy source.
And I think we, you know, especially with well, let's say,
more of the the the hidden Black Book kind of technologies.
I do think we as well, not even like the

(15:19):
Western worlds, but also, you know, I believe countries like
like you're wrong, Pakistan, whatever, you know, the more developed countries,
if you will, I I do believe that they, if
they set themselves to it, that they have the means
to actually make one and make a like make a

(15:39):
good one. Are they are they real? Do we actually
have it? Is it just? I like the analogy of
the devil, you know, now it's the nuclear bomb.

Speaker 3 (15:52):
It's a great analogy. I have to suckon that because
I was thinking it's time, but you said it. But
that's okay. But yeah, that was really good.

Speaker 1 (15:58):
Yeah, I feel free to use it, no copyright on it.
Feel free.

Speaker 3 (16:01):
But even the idea that you related it, because there
is an idea that the sort of nuclear or that
sort of process of fission or fusion, particularly fusion, is
actually a puronic deity who is a he's a luciferic
kind of figure, like the Mandian would call him like
melik Taus, like with the peacock writing a peacock, And

(16:23):
that's exactly how he's depicted in Indian tntra and Indian
religion as well. And so it kind of is the
secret son. That's kind of the there's kind of a
I guess a metaphor allegorical implication that he is a
kind of luciferic being, but you could also just say
that's the science. So a lot of religion. I'm friends

(16:43):
with someone who is does crystal quantum computing his name
is Sacchki, but on my show a few times and
he used to work for CERN. He will be the
first to admit that they all they all kind of
know that it's magic to a degree, like they kind
of know that it's all science and yeah, there's like
Pythagorean magic, and they kind of get it, especially theoretical physicists,

(17:07):
they kind of really get it. So I think it's
that it's like exactly what you said, it's like the
transference of mythology, but you're taking it and you're putting
it into a modern paradigm, a modern framework and saying
this is the devil or the lucifer, and this is
the paradigm. We're scared of that god, but we're you know,
we're going to pray to this one, which is obviously

(17:29):
and not really a god. It's really a secular religion.
So very interesting.

Speaker 4 (17:35):
I mean, it's kind of how we're treating it like
like you know, a kind of a god or a
godly power that you know, we should be afraid of
because it has you know, the means, it has the
power to destroy entire world, so you know, by all

(17:57):
means be afraid of it, but also you know, worship
it as the ultimate weapon.

Speaker 1 (18:01):
It's how you said Steine in that episode you did
for Across the Pond about TVs being alters, the modern
day altars of the time. I listened to that and
after that, I was thinking, you're perfectly right. Going again
back a hundred years ago, people would have pictures of
Christ on the wall. They'd have their their deity on
the wall. That would be in their living room, that'd

(18:23):
be the central point of their house. Nowadays, modern times,
people have celebrities on the wall. They are the modern
day who we are supposed to be worshiping. And some
people do and they have become the not the deities.
That's a bit too far for half of these people.
Yeah exactly, Yeah, Yeah, that's who we're supposed to look

(18:45):
up to and replicate. I liked an episode by the way,
Stein that's really good.

Speaker 3 (18:51):
Yeahs a taste from mass media, like for media theory.
And I always think like, yeah, is he really mccluan.

Speaker 4 (19:00):
No, But it's you know, it's it's an interesting one
and it's uh, you know, it's a thought that came
to me and I've seen other people talk about it
as well, and I was like, I mean, yeah, it is.

Speaker 1 (19:11):
It is true.

Speaker 4 (19:12):
You know, like I I recently went to a midsummer
fest here, you know, like half an hour away, and
there you see like people gathering like in front of
the storyteller who tells like amazing stories with such such passion,

(19:35):
and you know he brings it all so so well.
And it was this there was like actually this theater
performance in a uh kind of a replica of a
Roman arena slash Roman theater, and like we all just

(19:57):
sat there and and w people, you know, play out
this this story. And we all gathered and I was like,
this is how we how we used to do it,
you know, these are the stories that we used to
we used to tell each other. And like now that
I'm saying this, like even at at at work at

(20:19):
the moment, you know, a couple of my colleagues, Uh,
they're really into mhm X on the Beach, which is terrible,
terrible MTV show, like a lot of just the most

(20:39):
like derogatory stuff. It's it's about I don't even know
what it's about, but it's it's it's filthy, it's disgusting,
it's it's low hanging fruits in more ways than one
always and it's like now we're you know, discussing with
each other what we saw on TV, what we saw

(21:02):
on like quite literally that thing here behind me, yeah,
on the big black screen. You know, the stories are
being told for us. We don't create new stories anymore.

Speaker 3 (21:16):
Well, that's something you're hitting on, Stein, that's really interesting.
I just interviewed to writers on my show. Shout out
Kelby Losak because he was my last one. But so
we talked about this like meta fiction, like how you
contain so that's obviously more holistic idea. How do you
contain the sort of truth or the sort of meta

(21:38):
myth or the like narrative of the cosmos within a
story or do you have to totally do something brand new?
Is that even possible? Or is everything a remix? So
there's like all these different ideas. But a lot of
magicians are very, as you know, Stein, very fond of
this idea of the creation of new mythologies, neo mythologies

(21:59):
as doctors, even Flowers calls them. And so when you
do that, so anything can be a neo mythology. Captain
Planet can be a fucking neo mythology, right, And but
it does contain. It does contain ideas that are actually
true in magic, like fundamental kinds of ideas of the
combination of elements, the numbering of how you combine elements,

(22:21):
the colors, the kind of sepharatic ideas of the elements
or yeah, of elements, and so it's really interesting and
then they combine into an adamantine man. So are all
these stories before us really just talking about like are
they just a you know, remix of the Enochian of
the whatever, the Enochian stories or the Cabalistic stories or

(22:43):
the stories of Seth or Sham or whomever. I think
it's a really interesting idea anyway, And.

Speaker 4 (22:50):
A lot of stories may be like kind of retellings,
if you will. Like take Lord of the Rings, for example,
the the first movie, first Laura of the Ring's movie
came out twenty years ago, more than twenty years ago
by now. Yeah, and it still holds up. It is

(23:15):
still a and you know, an epic trilogy. But it's
it's a quite basic hero story. Actually, it's just the
hero story retold. But because you know, it's such a
amazing story with like characters that you can relate to.

(23:37):
We have the hero, the unlikely hero and whether that's
you know, Frodo or Sam even Sam Wise, who I
feel is like the unsung hero in the story. You know,
and you have like badass characters like aer Goren, you
have you know, you have the magic, you have the Elves.

(23:58):
It's you know, and that's what's what Tolkien why his
his work after like I don't know, I don't know
how many years is still amazing, is still still relevance
like in my in my mind, like as you mentioned, Jim,
he created a new mythology, but he took you know,

(24:20):
he took Anglo Saxon history, He kind of took North
Germanic history, took the hero story, he took Bale Wolf
and heated it something. I mean, it is still new,
and it's it's you know, an own world, a timeline

(24:41):
and own mythology. It's it's it's so it's.

Speaker 3 (24:45):
More real for people because he wrote it contemporary, like
it's contemporaneous to our collective, like remembered existence, like we
know people who existed very much when he wrote it,
so or at least we knew our grandparents or whatever
it is. And Sin and I have talked about this
like that sort of connection to family, or you're not

(25:08):
ancestry per se, but it's ancestral. Like I can I
can go to China, I can say like, yeah, this
is our ancestral village, but I don't. I have no
connection in that place, do you know what I mean? Like,
that's not my ancestral connection. But because I know my grandparents,
I knew my great grandparents, I kind of like have
that that's where the cultural dialogue is happening. It's not

(25:32):
it's not happening in place. And I think that that
is more true the more modernization, although to a degree
that has always been true. I think people why to themselves.
I know I'm gonna offense some people, but you can
hate me anyway. Is that I think people lie to
themselves and tell and say that populations are static. But

(25:53):
if you look at it from a central Asianist perspective,
like a maybe quote unquote Hyperborian perspective, and even like
the story Tolkien was some of histories that he was
drawing from, like the Finnish stories, there's a very strong
argument that some of those have Siberian roots. So I'm
just what I'm saying is is I think the story
of humanity is a lot more complicated, a lot more heterodox,

(26:18):
and a lot more mixed than we like to narrativize
for ourselves. And of course, like Sin is Dutch, I'm
Indonesian Chinese, so it kind of this is like kind
of an interesting dialogue, I think for right now, when
you have all these things that are talking about, like
mass immigration, what does it mean? Like you know, I'm

(26:39):
and so I think that that it erases the history,
the connection to the past. So we need these kind
of metamiths or repackage into neo mythologies, these smaller works
of fiction. But even in the fandom, the fandom itself
becomes part of the metamath because it's their interaction with
the neo mythology that it. It's that perception and consciousness. Anyways,

(27:03):
I'm sorry, I mean, you're go on for so long.

Speaker 1 (27:05):
No, it's fine, don't worry. Don't worry. The thing with
their Lord of the Ring is the way a lot
of people do look at it. And I'm not saying
uneducated people. Obviously you two come from a spiritual side. Again,
I come from the Council of States of Manchester. Kind
decide it's the Hobbit is depicted as the little Man's

(27:27):
that's the normal person in society, and it's showing people
that they can accomplish something great if they put their
mind to it. And I think very very basic in
Tolkien's kind of mind, he was depicting the Hobbit as
the normal person of the earth, and you can achieve
something if you put your mind to it and if

(27:50):
you work together. I think he was trying to get
that semi kind of point across.

Speaker 4 (27:55):
That's a good one.

Speaker 3 (27:57):
I totally agree with that too. You have to have
their module layers of reading. Yeah, like you have to
have everyone interacts with the myth in their own or not.
I'm using myth in not a pejorative but just in
air quote way. Everybody else I interact with it in
their own way, and it has to be meaningful for them,
and they also have to see themselves in it. So
I think you're totally right Andy and saying that he

(28:18):
intended for you to draw that meaning from it. That's
what makes it complex mythology as opposed to just some
you know, science fiction or fantasy bullshit, because there's a
lot of that. There's a lot of that that doesn't
resonate with people, right.

Speaker 1 (28:31):
Exactly, Yeah, exactly. If you look at the mythology of it,
and as you go through the layers of that, you've
got the hobbits are tiny, the humans are mid sized,
and the orcs are giants. They're gigantic, and it's it's
the small person can beat the big person in a
is it theoretical kind of way? Do you know what

(28:54):
I mean?

Speaker 3 (28:55):
Yeah, it's exactly.

Speaker 1 (28:57):
It's that kind of storytelling. If the little person helps
the medium person, we can all beat the big person.
It's it's that kind of thing, and the big person
is depicted as evil and that kind of thing. That's
what I look from it.

Speaker 4 (29:10):
Because it was thanks to you know, too little hobbits
really that you know, Eisngard got taken down, that the
you know, the the evil wizard got taken down. Two hobbits.
Who are it's it's you know, a play on the name,

(29:31):
of course, but who are creatures of habits? They don't like,
you know, the the extraordinary unless it comes to the
ol feests and parties. Like they like their fireworks, they
like their you know, their tobacco. They they they like
nice things. But that's like that's about it, and that's

(29:53):
that's why. Also there's such a beautiful metaphor in it
when I believe it's sam like when they're you know,
on the road at a certain point, he says like,
if I take one more step, this is the farthest
away that I have been from home. And it's like, yeah,

(30:15):
because that's like, that's where growth happens. Growth happens outside
of your outside of your comfort zone. It's it's a
very basic analogy, but very very well put by a Yeah,
a regular, regular individual, really a creature of habits, who likes,

(30:38):
who likes the nice things, but you know, doesn't like
to doesn't like to go crazy. He doesn't like to
do the crazy things, you know, likes to stay in
in his Hobbit hall with his nice filled pantry and
his smoking tobacco, warm warm fireplace, just you like, all
cozied up with a good book, you know, like Advengeurs

(31:01):
and whatever. Not for the Hobbits.

Speaker 3 (31:04):
But well, there's something interesting about what you're saying, is
like a rising in consciousness. I'm not saying the Hobbits
are low consciousness because they're the heroes as you make it. Obviously,
the case for but perhaps like the thing is is
to be like a little more. I don't even know
the right framing, any framing I think of as very nebulous,

(31:25):
probably to speak out loud, but no, I think that
they rise in consciousness and kind of realize that the
world is also greater than themselves. Maybe that is like
you could say, the klipa or the aggregation of a
of a hobbit is because you know, they they don't
really see outside of themselves. They don't really see outside

(31:46):
of their own world. And there's also obviously an aonic
idea is that the world is what you tell of it,
like the story you tell, but also what you say
of it and see of it. So it's like multiple interactions.
Like however you're interacting that that's how it also arises.

Speaker 4 (32:02):
Because it's it's also your your interaction with the world,
how the world is shaped. Of course, you know you
are of the world. You are in the world. We're
not part of this world. You are this world's like
we are we are the world.

Speaker 3 (32:24):
We are like the you know where the we're the
microcosm where the microcosm should be, right, Yeah, like.

Speaker 4 (32:30):
We are we are our planets, microcosm, really as you know,
bacterias and whatever are or you know, our microcosm. We
are our planet's microcosm. And that's why I think that
you know, the the the whole talk about oh you know,

(32:52):
we cause this this climate change and this global catastrophe
and whatever.

Speaker 3 (32:59):
I mean, narrative framing, it's just how you frame it.
The climate is changing, but how do you frame it?
Is it is it? Is it like a cause that
has been happening for millions of years, thousands of years?
Is it recent? Is it man made? Is it just
a tectonic maybe aonyx shifts like maybe it's a solar cycle,

(33:19):
maybe it's a stellar cycle. Like they don't just because
they say it's consensus reality does not make it consensus reality. No, exactly.

Speaker 4 (33:30):
Yeah, the climate is changing. We all know it's changing.
That's what the climate does. Like look at history, our
our planets, whatever shape you may think it has or
whatever kind of realm you may think it is, it
has changed so many times. So yeah, of course it's

(33:53):
changing now too, like we're doe. We're due for another change.
It's been no, fourteen thousand years. The the that's about the.

Speaker 1 (34:02):
It's overture isn't it now?

Speaker 3 (34:03):
I think, yeah, so interesting. Yeah, because we're moving into
a really interesting astrological period where the world's like the
world's the natal chart of the world will reach a
zero point ingress in areas. Shout out to my friend
as Frauldier John whose episode is coming up. But yes

(34:27):
he did. We did talked about this, but no, it
is that's extremely important. It hasn't really happened, so it
does mark something. Now do we take it and say, oh,
like the you know, the Antichrist is coming or like whatever,
or the Christ is coming, or we're you know, one
hundred and forty four thousand of us are getting beamed up. No,

(34:47):
probably not. That's probably not the most useful frameworks. But
we could say, like, oh, yeah, there is actually something
and maybe it is about like us, maybe using podcasting
as a metap but just as a metaphor for like
social media more broadly, like social media is the carnal ground.
Let's be honest. It's the worst of the worst. But

(35:10):
in a way we get to do this. We get
to talk to really cool people. Stein talks to really
cool people. You talk to really cool people, Andy, I've
gotten I've lately been able to talk to cool people.
I mean, I've always talked to cool people, but I
get to choose more.

Speaker 1 (35:26):
Now.

Speaker 3 (35:27):
That's the thing when you kind of grow up. Stein understands,
when you grow up as a podcast, you kind of
you get a choice of like more of that.

Speaker 2 (35:33):
So but.

Speaker 3 (35:36):
I think it's great. I think, you know, we're doing
this thing and we're exploring ideas, and maybe that is
really you know, this might have happened before, like I
don't know, you know, maybe this is like Atlantis, like
seven point zero. But as I always say, just watch
Battle Star Galactica because all of this has happened before,
and all this, of course will happen again, but it

(35:57):
doesn't matter because we can just take of it. We're
here now, and you know we're in a shift, so
let's shift with it. Quicksilver Surfers, which Bolstock Galactica?

Speaker 1 (36:07):
Are you talking about the old one?

Speaker 3 (36:08):
Will reimagined? Of course?

Speaker 1 (36:10):
More just making sure I'm original. You say I'm old
enough to remember the original.

Speaker 3 (36:16):
Well, this is really interesting, Eddie, if you want to
talk to parapolitics, because the original series is actually based
on a book of Mormon idea, Like the whole thing
is the book of Mormon, right, and so he Ron
Moore did some really interesting maybe you could say theosophical syncretism.
I'm not saying in a pejorative I don't think it's pejorative,

(36:36):
but he he. He added on a Greek platonic layer
as well as a Shivite layer. So very interesting the
reimagined version obviously, but that's what makes it different. It's
kind of like Mormonism, but like plus Mormonism plus. So
it has all these like really interesting magical ideas, like

(36:56):
the arrow of a Paulo and it does actually align
interestingly enough with the astrology that is coming up a
lot of the themes in that book. So if you
I'm not I'm not like a Mormon, and like, you know,
like I'm cool. If you want to, you know, be
a Mormon and do Book of Enoch magic stuff, that's cool,
but that's not for me. But uh, there is an

(37:17):
interesting idea that that there is like a calindrical cycle
in the Book of Enoch and and all the three obviously,
but like in this specifically in the Hebrew one. And uh,
you know it. I'm not saying what they are saying
is correct. I'm just saying it's one interpretation, like we're saying, like,
it's all frameworks, it's just how you view it.

Speaker 1 (37:40):
Yeah, if you look at them all as well, they're
all pointing to this something happening, but they all seem
to be pointing to it around the same kind of time.

Speaker 3 (37:52):
See. That's what's really interesting is that that time is
probably right now.

Speaker 4 (37:57):
Yeah, I would say so, Yeah, for sure. I mean
big things are are happening already, like we're seeing it happen.
You know, we're dealing with the the polar shifts.

Speaker 1 (38:12):
You know, the.

Speaker 4 (38:13):
Earth's energies are quite literally shifting. You know, True North
is no longer you know, true to the magnetic north.

Speaker 1 (38:25):
So of Canada now, isn't it? Is it down further now?

Speaker 4 (38:30):
Somewhere there.

Speaker 3 (38:31):
I believe there's an interesting idea anty that it might
be either Greenland or Newfoundland because Newfoundland is joint owned
by the Canadian American British Corporation in the Charter document.
This is an old Canadian conspiracy theory, but it's very interesting.

Speaker 1 (38:52):
That's a big rabbit hole to go down. Another conspiracy
theory is the British never left America and the America
is still one of our colonies. Well that's a that's
a different story.

Speaker 3 (39:02):
Well, I think it is. So I agree with this
actually this deep conspiracy, but I don't think it's I
think it's factionalized. I think different families compete and different
lineages compete for different amounts of territory. Like the Great Game.
You know, you know that you learn all the lists
in school that British never stopped playing it. Cabala is

(39:22):
basically chess. So that's all it is. They're just applying
the They're just applying game principles, the game theory that
became so popular in the early two thousands, right, they
apply that to geopolitics. That's all it is, and it's
like who accumulates the most territory wins. But then they
also factor in these things like metaphysics and also like

(39:43):
mass media and telling us this is what's really happening,
when something totally else is happening. Even the motivations I
think are very very rarely are they true. That's my
personal opinion.

Speaker 1 (39:56):
Yeah, we never hear the motivations behind things is being
played at bubbles ninety nine point nine percent of the time.
We never find out what actually is And it's like
you say, it's geopolitics. That's what it is exactly. All
these people, like they just said about America and they
ran were firing missiles at the American bases. Iran told

(40:18):
America they were doing it. They said, look, we're going
to do this on this day. Movie people. It's all
a big game.

Speaker 3 (40:25):
Yeah, it's a big show. And it's really interesting when
you look at birth charts of the three leaders because
it actually predicts something interesting and it's not my prediction,
but I'm saying that there is a prediction that the
Komeni will decline in health and lose his leadership, but
he'll survive, like physically survive. Na Zan Yahu will lose leadership,

(40:46):
and Trump will survive by like the skin of his
teeth and it'll kind of rectify. And you can even
see this very interestingly happening right now where he's like
neither countries know what the fuck they're doing. And that's
like aviral clip and so that is that's a perfect
magical operation. He took something that was like shit, he

(41:09):
brought it back into this into the spark of splendor
and to hold the Orange Man. Remember they call him
Orange Man, so he is the hold like prince you
could say, or the king. Now I guess, but he's
reaching his apotheosis, so he's basically brokering a piece of
steel five D chess. It all worked out. Trump's a genius.
There you go. Yeah, it's very he's very People underway

(41:34):
underestimate his skill at this. He's very good at this.
Not everyone is good at this.

Speaker 1 (41:41):
He is very, very good at People call him stupid,
and he's not. He's five moves ahead of everybody else.
He can see. He knows five moves ahead. M He's
supposed to be a very avid chess player as well.
Isn't he supposed to be a grand muster?

Speaker 3 (41:56):
Is he isn't that interesting? And he doesn't drink or smoke.

Speaker 4 (41:59):
Nope.

Speaker 3 (42:00):
He maintains kind of like what you would need as
a thurgic tools if you were sort of doing thurgic practices.
Maybe he doesn't even think of them like that. Maybe
he just you know, he does like whatever meditations that
weird scientologists lady tells him, and like that's it, and
that's how he learns how to do it. But it

(42:20):
doesn't matter at the end of the day, like what
the thing is, because like someone like me, who's not.
I can still recognize elements of what he's doing.

Speaker 4 (42:27):
Yeah, And it's it's interesting that you you call him
a king because aren't there like in the US, are
there are there like the the no More Kings protests now?

Speaker 3 (42:41):
So yes there are. And it's so funny because I
was thinking this exact thing steigin it is like very cabalistic,
It's very Hegelian what they are doing. So, as you know,
the Prince of hod has to eventually travel through the
paths and then he reaches apotheosis I'm sorry, Andy, at
the Sun, so basically at the planetary sun. So it's

(43:04):
like a Jesus figure is basically what happens. He goes
from Mercury, goes from like the Prince. The Prince is
sometimes depicted as like tranny or sometimes gay. Sometimes it's
an androgynous figure, but it's not really if you really understand,
it's not really, but that's how stupid magician's low IQ
magicians sometimes express it. So anyways, he goes through the

(43:26):
paths and he has to do all these things like
live out the heroes journey, same thing. Campbell was also
talking about Kabbala in very fundamental way, and because he
even called it like the sphere the heroes like circle
or sepher or sphere, and so you know, he travels
through the path and then he reaches the sun and
then he's like Louis the Sun King. You can think

(43:48):
of it the same metaphor. So if you say no kings,
you're basically denying that route. And the route of mercury
is through what is through speed, So you have to
kind of declare yourself. This is why Trump always declares himself,
I'm you know, I'm a president whatever, or I'm Trump

(44:09):
or It's like that's very it's declarative. It's like a power.
So he's like saying this is who I am. So
if people see him as a king, that's a cobalistic
sort of potency. And then if people see him not
as a king and they actively protest against him, that's
also a coubleistic potency. Something else he's really good at
is taking hate and transmuting it into love.

Speaker 2 (44:32):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (44:33):
No, absolutely, And I like what you say, like he's
always speaking in in facts. It's always you know, I
am this or this is that they are? You know that,
it's always it's always a fact. It's not you know,
it's never I am going to it's always I am

(44:57):
doing this. Ever they will be, it's they are mm hmm.
It's always, it's always a fact, it's always already established.
And his it's so funny. His speech, Like literally, his
speech is one of the most mimicked things about him,

(45:19):
you know, together with mannerisms.

Speaker 1 (45:21):
Of course, yeah, you do so good.

Speaker 3 (45:25):
Honestly, he's so important ever exactly what Sign's doing. But
even the gestural thing, the gestural magic is really important.
People have forgotten about gestural magic. It's kind of like
been relegated to the you know, like third century ocult
books like I'm serious, like people do not know about it,

(45:46):
except maybe a little bit in contra, but it generally
it's considered to be like a very important branch of magic.
And he does do a lot of gestures. They all
do gestures, I get it, but he does very specific ones,
and he also associates them with what Stein is saying.
So Stein was really perceptive in saying that thing about
that I am, they are you are he is. That's

(46:10):
very hold like language. It's just like that is mercurial language,
like that kind of analytical frame of object verb whatever,
and then whoever you're talking about, that's this is very
Hord like and so that's also a magical operation. And
then the way Stein did it with the you know,
the okay sign, it is like perfect.

Speaker 1 (46:31):
That's what they say, don't they. I completely agree what
you said. Magicians were always watched the hands, Watch the hands.
That's what they always used to say. Magicians are phased out,
but politicians are very much hands. Hands, always moving, hands,
always doing everything, and they're giving you the subliminal of
what they're actually saying. And people have forgotten about that.
H That was an art of getting a message across

(46:53):
with your words, but also with how your hands are
moving trying to get your points across.

Speaker 3 (47:00):
That's a great point, Andy, because we've really gone like yeah,
Sin and I do approach it more from the occult,
esoteric world, but we have gone through like such a
darkening of our esoteric and this doesn't matter, like this
doesn't matter, like whatever tradition or path you are on.
And I'm more of a rectification in the middle, like

(47:21):
I'm not a Pagan. Stein knows this already, given him
a speech many times. But I'm not a Christian either,
So it's like I'm kind of neither nor secret third
you could say, so, I'm more of a path of
like let's bring like some of the texts into dialogue
with religious frameworks. So because people have forgotten exactly what

(47:41):
you said, Like there were people like two hundred years
ago who would have been able to figure this out.
There were British like Swift and Pope both kind of
satirized what happens in parliament. They would talk about like
he's a small man, he's a tall man, like they
would do that kind of jokes and those like satirical poetry.
That there's meaning in that, there's like other meaning, like

(48:02):
a more layered meaning in that. And even for me,
who's relatively smart and decent at ocult things, it's still
hard to grasp everything. So we've really gone through like
a darkening of our I think knowledge. I don't know
a sign you should you should pay in on what
you think, but I think that we're we're claim all.

(48:23):
We're claiming it now in whatever kinds of frameworks are available,
but there's still things we just do not know. And
I think that's okay, And I'm okay with that personally.

Speaker 4 (48:32):
Yeah, absolutely, And yeah, darkening yeah, absolutely, but also a
a remembrance, like speaking of darkening, I think that is
because we are, i mean really still kind of going
through a a collective dark knight of the soul, you know,

(48:59):
and I think a lot of people are well maybe
not actively remembering, but you know, they're they're seeing these things,
you know, like with uh. I mean, Trump is such
a good example for it. You know, he brings all
these emotions out in people. You know, he hits on

(49:19):
even without like really doing much, just you know, his.

Speaker 6 (49:22):
Speech and the you know, the that and it's always
like to the outside, like always in circles and whatever,
you know, making really broad movements.

Speaker 4 (49:34):
It's it's hitting people on such a such a deep level,
and he's doing it so it's it's so simple actually
what he says and what he does, but it's kind
of like he's he's hitting he yeah, he's hitting them
in their soul really, and I.

Speaker 3 (49:54):
Think that is It's any politician can do this. It's like.

Speaker 4 (50:01):
He makes it look so.

Speaker 1 (50:05):
He's got it to an art, doesn't it. He has
got it to an art. He projects himself so well.

Speaker 4 (50:11):
I mean he's a salesman, you know, he's a businessman.
That is the art of the deal. And that's that's
you know, how he is as a as a ruler
as well. You know, he's into deal making. I mean,
of course, so like in the end he comes out,
you know, looking best because he is, you know, either

(50:34):
the one who suggested the deal or he brokeered the
deal or something. But he always has to be involved.
And that's that's still you know, the businessman aspect. It's
the salesman aspect, you know, like yeah, you two can
do business, but hey, don't forget about the don't forget
about fee. You know I I introduced you to.

Speaker 3 (50:57):
So hey, he's like the real if real politics is
like the sort of normative world order, we'll say, he's
kind of like the real mafia, like one word compounded
because he's just like, yeah, this is how it is
and we're open about it.

Speaker 4 (51:12):
I mean, he'd be an excellent mafio.

Speaker 3 (51:14):
So I mean, in a way, it is it's just
blooding crips in a way. And that's very art of
the deal too, like very tiperotic, very like me in
the middle draw things into synthesis and also explains like
why he you know, he is a protege of Roy Cohn,
And I'm not saying that in a pejorative necessarily, but
Roy Khne sort of has a had an understanding probably

(51:36):
of hassetic kabbala. So that's why a lot of Kabala
has become lawyers. I'm not it's not a racial thing.
It's just a lot of people who are good to
become lawyers because there's an idea that you can do
everything that you want to do on the tree from
that one Suffra. But that's actually incorrect, that's bad in balance.
So I don't agree with that, is what I'm saying.
But I think it's interesting because he definitely would be

(51:59):
considered a deal broker like Stein is saying, and be
able to siphon off some of the light if you
want to call it that, or the the money. Yeah,
he'd be able to siphon some off for himself and
come away looking good.

Speaker 4 (52:16):
Do you think he is as as many people think?
Do you think he's going to be the last one,
like the last real president? If you will.

Speaker 3 (52:27):
We're definitely moving towards like a technocratic like more what
you guys have a little bit, maybe not so much Andy,
but definitely for Stein, like we have, we don't have
an elected PM, like you know, it's like one hundred
and twelve thousand people voted and that's who it is.
And so I don't know, I want to be like

(52:50):
you know, like like new but New America and neo Babylon,
like let's fucking go, Like I'm there, like I'm conceptually there,
I'm ready. So but you know, I think the other
idea is like to be moderate in your expectation of
them too, because at the end of the day, it
is kind of just a game and it is where
you apply your will, right Like I like it, like

(53:12):
I think it's fun and interesting. But if you're on Twitter,
like I am, like a lot of millennials are, you see,
like the waves of emotions change so rapidly, like there
would be there'll be tons of Trump people one day,
and then they'll be like this is the division right now.
And if you fall out of line in any way
in any other cap then you're like ontologically evil, you're

(53:36):
like the enemy. I'm not just talking like Maga people.
I'm talking about like there's a lot of disaffected leftists
who sort of like became Trump supporters. They do that
same game too, and they'll be like if you don't
have this opinion, this right opinion, it's very like it's
like why people say like toxic social media. So that's
why I think it's like important to like you can

(53:58):
put some will in just know where that begins and ends,
and know you can also walk away.

Speaker 1 (54:03):
Yeah, that's like you've put that there. Obviously. I don't
know how old you are, Jine, but I'm like forty six.

Speaker 3 (54:12):
Going on ten years younger than you.

Speaker 1 (54:15):
Oh so you so I am the old man of
the of the show here. If you go back in
time to when I was a lad, you could have
different opinions for people, and if I had a different
opinion to somebody else, they wouldn't come and go right
smack boom. But these days, if I have just the
slightest it can be the slightest thing. You know, I

(54:36):
don't like this, you like that? Oh I don't like you.
You're You're not the person. That's how the divide has
been created at the moment. And back in my day
that wasn't the thing that this is a new thing
where you don't want to say, oh I don't like this,
I like this, just in case you offend somebody and

(54:57):
it is crazy world. Crazy world.

Speaker 3 (55:00):
We need more round tables between not between people who agree,
between people who disagree. They can do so in a
at least the appearance of rational sort of adult behavior.

Speaker 1 (55:15):
Yeah, I don't have to raise your voice to have
a debate, That's right. You can just have a debate
like we're talking here. You could have a different opinion
to me. I like fish. You don't like fish, Well,
why don't you don't? Why don't you not like fish?
And I do? It's you're just going to be able to
talk about it in a calm way, get your views across.

(55:36):
You're not going to change the mind. That's not what
you're there for. You're there just to share your idea,
show your point of view, and just say to understand
exactly Stean, Yeah, to understand each other and realize, oh,
this isn't the enemy over here, this guy over here
that likes fish, Oh no, I don't actually hate him.
It's quite a good bloke.

Speaker 3 (55:58):
Well, and you just like the whole thing. Like after
we'll just say twenty twenty, we all were divided into
like many caps, like we were put into the multiplicity
like so bad, Like just like every idea became its
own silo, its own like kind of Blato's cave, like

(56:18):
its own like room of darkness, like Stein was talking
about like Dark Knight of the Soul, like you don't
know what to believe, you don't believe anything. We're talking
about the Hobbits, like they don't believe. They don't really
know anything outside of their hobbit or their hovel or whatever.
So that's the same thing. Everybody was like that. But
now we get to have dialogue and see what happens.

(56:39):
And every dialogue is really synthesis. When you when you
record it like this, you're adding like that lightning layer,
so you're adding you're making it magic. Right, Not every
episode means this magic, but if you know what you're doing,
you can still do magic. Even if ten people here,
one person hears. It doesn't matter. Matt said this student.
I was like, wow, actually kidding, You're like really profound,

(57:01):
and he was like, it doesn't matter. He's like, if
it's just me, jan if I'm the only one listening
to your show and I'm just like walking around Italy
and it's just me, and I understand what you're saying
in a more fundamental like cabalistic way or a more
like a metaphysical way. He's like, that's all that matters,
and I was like, yeah, actually, you're right, that is
all that really matters. And so I like disagreement, but

(57:22):
in a coherent way. It has to be respectful. It
doesn't mean you have to respect the person or their opinion.
And you can even say that sometimes. And I'm the worst,
Like people know, I'm very notorious for like some things
that come out of my mouth. And I'll take responsibility
for them though, because I'll say those things to your
face rather than I don't like to. I don't talk

(57:43):
about people. I just don't. I would much rather say
it to their face. We can have a conflict. Sometimes
there's resolution, sometimes there's not, And I think people need
to be okay with like things in not in resolution,
and people are not okay with that, And that is
a lot about what I talk about is a break

(58:03):
and leap us or like breaking conceptual frameworks that are
not serving you in a metaphysical sense obviously, but you
can definitely apply it to more psychology or more young
in style thinking. Mean Young was a self professed magician
basically from Red Book. So you know, he's talking about
the same thing. We're all really talking about the same thing,

(58:25):
and I think that we have to be in dialogue
for that to happen. It doesn't, It doesn't. I can
go and host fifty spaces, but if it's just jin
talking for three hours, that's nothing. But if it's us together,
that's magic. That's like co creative and much more powerful.

Speaker 1 (58:44):
That's it, exactly. It is magic. You're talking to me,
your ideas go into my head. It's like planting a
seed in my head. Your ideas grow in my head,
and then those points that I agree with, I take
those on board, and then they start to mold my
view on life. It is magic. That's magic being able

(59:05):
to actually do that.

Speaker 3 (59:08):
That's the true magic perception.

Speaker 1 (59:11):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (59:11):
Yeah, when when we recognize each other and we just
we say okay, and then that's his ideas. I'm listening,
I'm hearing, I'm understanding to a degree. Maybe I'll think
about it later and be like, wow, that was really
fucking deep that when Andy said or maybe I don't
agree with it, that's okay.

Speaker 1 (59:26):
Well, the first time anyone's ever said that.

Speaker 4 (59:32):
No, And I think that's you know why why podcasting
is such like it's such a good a good tool
for it, Like it allows for many different people to
to come together, whether it be a one on one
you know, or you know, the three of us, or

(59:54):
an entire roundtable like I do often on on Saturdays
with the with the Bush Shaman, you know, on on
my own show. I have had people on who, you know,
thing differently than I do. I've had pretty hardcore Christians
on as well, who are like, but you know, why

(01:00:15):
don't you just converge, Like don't you don't you want
to be saved? It's like, I mean, yeah, i'd like to,
but you know, I found my gods and I'm very
happy following the bat that I'm following. Okay, but like
why I can I can have a conversation with them
about the the last one she's a writer as well,

(01:00:39):
like she wrote about her life story, like she's one
of those.

Speaker 3 (01:00:44):
What is it?

Speaker 4 (01:00:45):
Born again Christians? Those are those are.

Speaker 3 (01:00:47):
The worst, by the way, very they're very interesting. They
have a very interesting theology. I don't ever say anything's
bad anymore. I'm very I try and be what I
call true neutral. Yeah it's not because I am true neutral,
but because I try and approach things. It's just like frameworks.
I don't have to agree or disagree. So like bornegrans,

(01:01:08):
as a kid, I thought they were like a joke,
like really fucking annoying, but actually, like as a grown
grown up, I kind of reappraised them and was like, Okay,
well let's look at from kabala because it's an interesting
way to look at it, right, So, and they obviously
hate that, and but you I think you can glean
some interesting ideas like where they prefer where they kind
of you know, come and go in the tree because

(01:01:30):
everything's about the tree. Really. Whether that's a metaphor or
like an actual framework, I don't know, just an interesting idea.
So I'm sorry, please keep going.

Speaker 4 (01:01:37):
No, No, it's fine, you are you are your Kabala. No.
But you know she used to be this, you know,
this model, this party girl, and then like got a
really really heavy and very serious bout of of cancer

(01:01:59):
and you know she lost her lost her father. So
you know, really when well through that that dark knight
of the soul, like she was looking thrown into the
deep end, you know, no warning, no floaters, and just
like swim, you know, you have no choice, swim and
you know, through that she found God, and I'm I'm

(01:02:20):
I'm happy for her that she did well. I think
like her real confusion was when I said that, like, yeah,
I acknowledge you know, Christ as a as an archetype.
I acknowledge him as a magician or you know, maybe
even as a you know, a mystical teacher. I do

(01:02:40):
acknowledge that, I do acknowledge that his teachings are you know,
are good teachings, are pretty basic, and I think those
are you know, teachings and rules that like everybody should
be able to find themselves in. But for her, it's
just it wouldn't click. But then like why are you
still pagan? It's like, well, because I'm Dutch, I'm European.

(01:03:02):
These are my gods, this is what I you know,
this is my heritage. But you acknowledge Jesus. Yeah, then
where ain't your Christian? But I could still have a
very you know, respectable conversation with that about her. You know,

(01:03:23):
I'm still very very interested and the you know the
kind of roundtable that I did with with Matt and
with DM Blackwell, like wool you know, he is also
very much a Christian. But you know, loves the loves
the old texts, you know, Obeyo Wolf, and he is

(01:03:46):
a very broad knowledge on those things, so he can
speak on a lot of it. Matt is definitely you know,
he is Kabbala through and through. But it was like
three hours and thirty minutes of like a very interesting
discussion kind of comparing you know, Coubalat to Norse mythology,
because we have the we have the tree as well,

(01:04:08):
of course, you know the Ecoheel, which is kind of
you know, it is the tree of life, it is
the doublistic tree. And then there is you know, someone
who like knows the Bible and like really really knows
the Bible, like not just some of the Bible versus,
but actually knows what they're about and knows what they're
saying and relate it back to, you know, to the

(01:04:30):
North Pagan kind of related back to the Coubalists.

Speaker 3 (01:04:34):
I mean, that was definitely happening. Notch intrupty on star sign,
but that was definitely happening, like the Order of Trapezoids
and like the ruinous stuff, and they were they were
definitely some of those people knew and not doctor Flowers
by his own admission, when like I spoke with him,
but he doesn't know cabal is what he says. Okay,

(01:04:54):
so take that for whatever it's worth. But some of
his some of the people that studied both under him
and with him, that we're also sort of working on
those same things they did. So I absolutely think that
the Norse tree is but one tree of many. I'm
not saying that the tree is fixed, or there's one preference,

(01:05:16):
or one is necessarily older, although I am of the
school that there is perhaps probably like a first or
third century tree that is probably not Norse. But you know,
you can tell from the numbering system. You can just
tell from the preferences of the numbers. That doesn't make
one right or wrong necessarily. But I agree with you
stein It. I think that, well, there's a very Buddhist idea, right,

(01:05:39):
is that all really deities are empty. So it doesn't
really matter you know, what you what face you put
on it, because as long as you understand like the
deeper underlay, it's just empty, which is just luminous massless love.
Really so, and I think people see themselves. I think

(01:06:00):
that's a lot about what deities are. It's like those
kind of meta archetypes of ourselves or those things that
we would prefer to embody, or maybe it's those like
parts of darkness, like the very contric ideas, like you
have a wrathful deity that is the vessel for your
you know, negative emotions. You're like a negative afflictions. So

(01:06:23):
you have to conquer that that you use the form
of the deity to do it. So I'm very flexible
because I'm Buddhist, obviously, but I also see that there
is a story in Christianity that I think is important
because if okay, so if i'm I've been saying for
the last like you're inner in eight months, it's the

(01:06:46):
am of the Daughter. But and this is not just
my idea. There was also a Toley McKay fred or
Chad who wrote a book Crossing the Abyss and the Daughter.
And then there was also a lady in the nineties
who wrote another book called the Mott Workings or Mot Magic,
and so she was also talking about the same thing.
And it's interesting because I had no idea about their work,

(01:07:06):
like none, zero percent. I only knew the title of
his book. That was the only thing I had ever
seen on the internet. So I came up with these
ideas a way to sort of map it couplistically. And
it's interesting because I kind of came to a synthesis
of their two ideas. But we all said something interesting individually,
which was that it's a compliment to what Curley was

(01:07:29):
saying was the Aonaporus, but it's also a rectification of
the over gevatic, the overly marshal, the overly fiery nature
of what that would be. And so I just think,
I don't know, I just think basically that the sun
archetype is there's something in it that it will still

(01:07:52):
be extremely useful, that will still be profound, and that
people will I'm not saying that it's not in Norse
paganism or the Norse traditions or the Northern Europeans mythologies.
I'm not saying that at all. But if we're thinking aonically,
we want to go with the archetypes that are Aonic,
and so the Aonic the archetypes are like the Seth

(01:08:15):
and the Nuria or the son and the daughter. That's
just my thinking. I'm not saying you're wrong side, but
I'm just so I understand why people get fixated on
the Christianity thing. But I also think they can take
it into a negative space obviously, Like I'm not someone
who's like an apologetic for Christians, but I can recognize
metaphysical elements in their system that I can appreciate.

Speaker 4 (01:08:37):
Yeah, no, exactly, That's that's where I'm where I'm coming
from as well. Like I can I can recognize the
the magic, I recognize the metaphysics, and I do indeed
very much recognize the uh, the archetypes. If anything, I've
been going a bit more into that we should, dude,

(01:09:00):
we should do a show like together again. Like I
see Andy just sitting there like, oh yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:09:05):
I think absorbing all the weird mess things Like I.

Speaker 1 (01:09:09):
Taken all these words in, I'm gonna google them all
light to just so you know.

Speaker 4 (01:09:14):
What's gonna be a lot. Bro.

Speaker 3 (01:09:16):
Yeah, I know, I kind of packed it in, but
I was like, you know, I'm gonna sell this series
that we've been like Matt and uh Solar and and
Joshua the Branch and Monty we've all been working on it.
And we do these like open spaces where everybody kind
of speaks if they want, if they will we say,
and we say, like right, away like this a plus

(01:09:38):
ultra space. It's magic, like this is magic if you're
in the space, it's comegical, like you have to consent
to being here. And so that's what I was like,
you know, Sign invited me on or you invite me
on Eddie, and I was like, yeah, I'm gonna come
on and sell my series because I think it was
interesting for what Sein was saying that you talk about,
you talk about like thet I don't know if we

(01:09:59):
want to into it, but like maybe the more Hyperborean things,
or the blue beam or or disclosure or and I
but I'm not an aliens person. I'm just gonna say
that right now. But I'm an aonic person. So I
can understand that there are maybe frameworks that we have
that we don't aren't in common, but we're talking about
similar ideas or maybe even the same idea. So I

(01:10:22):
understood that from when steins. So that's what I want
to say, is that's why I kind of brought it
a little hard. But I apologize and thank you guys
both so much. Amazing, incredible episode, really great to speak
to you against Stein and Andy, amazing to meet you.

Speaker 1 (01:10:37):
Definitely, definitely I loved every second of eachin to be honest,
really really did. Even though you used a lot of
long words, it was really really good.

Speaker 3 (01:10:46):
I mean, Stein has seen me come up from like
a scrub podcaster into like more of my own. I
think I have more of my own. I think I'm
more who I am now than I ever have been
in my entire life. And so I think podcasting is
at least a part of that. But I think just
you know, for signed to have me on at the
very beginning of my career and then it to be

(01:11:09):
it's like it's a very interesting, full circle, animate and
just so incredible. I think you again, sign and uh yeah,
and anddie. I'm sorry. I you know, I w will
we will definitely do this again, and I will definitely
come and I will bring another because we're doing another
series even right now. It's called Welcome to Hypaboia, where

(01:11:29):
we're saying America, not necessarily America the country, but America
the continent, is the world island. So the idea is
that it could have been in Central Asia at one point,
but because we also believe, at least Mormons believe that
it is in America, somewhere in Utah, or something like
that that maybe it is. So we're just speculatively reimagining

(01:11:52):
like the world island as America and what that would mean.
And then we did a secret series, a series within
a series, which is what we're recording right now as
a data record, called ether Punk. So we're kind of
doing a speculative not utopian like solar punk, because solar
Punk also has like very kind of fascisty Singaporean we

(01:12:12):
joke in the Lodge undertones, but and it's not dystopian
like cyberpunk, Like it's not like corporate fascism or technocracy.
So we're kind of meeting in the middle and we're saying,
like technology and magic, where's the intersection, and then what
are the aesthetics of it? So we talked about like
what anime series we think what would be either punk
or what literary series like all of that stuff, and

(01:12:34):
then we talked about like what would technology look like.
So I'm I'm kind of doing like this gonzo journey
into my own craziness, but also but also having people participate,
So I think that's what it's all about. Yeah, sorry, Bubba, Yeah,
but thank you, I mean amazing. I appreciate it and Uh,

(01:12:56):
that's why I am the way I am.

Speaker 1 (01:12:57):
So don't change. Don't change.

Speaker 4 (01:13:02):
Yeah, so Aly like kind of welcome in to our space.
Is this is, this is what we do, what we
talk about.

Speaker 1 (01:13:11):
I'd be writing everything down and googling everything, being a
dumb Northerner from England. Yeah, this is. It's eye opening,
it really is. It's always good to you know. It's
not enlightening, so to say, but it really does open
your mind. What does that mean? Oh, that means the
same as what I think over here. It's just in

(01:13:32):
a different words. It's good. I like it.

Speaker 3 (01:13:35):
It's very chaos magic, very Peter Carroll, you know, like
breaking the frameworks of our fathers. Although he probably had
daddy issues. So I'm a big advocate that you shouldn't
approach religion if you have really bad daddy issues because
that can be really weird of it in and of itself.
But you know, I think that's a good way to
do it. Is like you're and everybody starts off not

(01:13:56):
knowing anything. Like even if you can listen to my
episodes with Stein, they're really good episodes. I'm sure they
stand up perfectly fine. But neither him and I are
the same people you've like evolved, like Stein shows totally
evolved in front of my eyes. So you know, like
we all level up, we all, you know, take ten
steps back. That's the hero's journey or whatever you want

(01:14:20):
to call it. I don't call it. I call it
the magician's journey. And just like I believe that Gandalf
is the true, the true hero of that Kina of
that film, simply because I, like I said, I want
to see myself on screen, and I want and that's
who I think I am. I'm the Magician, So that's
that's who it was for me.

Speaker 1 (01:14:40):
Gandalf is definitely the mastermind. He brings everybody together, doesn't
He knows all the pieces and he's just going to
get them all together.

Speaker 3 (01:14:49):
I mean, he and the Gray Wizard is obviously the
focus of those finished stories. So he obviously was the
central focus or the hero or the Christ I know,
or sign the Christ figure of those Northern European stories.
But I do think it's interesting because you do see
this emerge independent of Christianity in like Buddhism and Indian

(01:15:11):
religion and theosophy. Of course, it's kind of like Christ
like figure, but he's not quite Christ. But you see,
I think it's a reoccurrent archetype, is what I'm saying.
So like when Sin was saying, like when he was
speaking with the author, Yeah, it's a the son is
a reoccurrent archetype where we probably have it into our
deep quote unquote ancestral memory. And you know, we don't

(01:15:34):
really pay attention to aonic cycles, even people who are
mystics or occultists, and they're not really interested most of
the time. So people talk about aliens and stuff instead.
But it's they're talking about similar things, is what I'm
trying to say.

Speaker 1 (01:15:47):
Yeah, the basically they put in on their own sort
like figure of what they think onto his like aliens, aliens,
these things above us as well, some people think and
other people think the aliens to below wars. It's you
just put it onto how you feel in yourself, basically.

Speaker 3 (01:16:09):
Well said, the kingdom's within you, exactly right. So why
do you project yourself outwards? And who do you project
yourself outwards? As it's a good it's a good question
for every magician or every person.

Speaker 1 (01:16:23):
Yeah, you are the center of your own universe, and
how you interact with other people's universes is how you
project yourself.

Speaker 3 (01:16:33):
That's exactly right.

Speaker 1 (01:16:34):
Plus contract been philosophical now, aren't I? This isn't the
same me. What's going on?

Speaker 4 (01:16:40):
Seeing? You're getting, You're getting, I'm.

Speaker 1 (01:16:43):
Turning, I'm turning everybody, I'm turning.

Speaker 3 (01:16:47):
Well, I'll say this signs used to my kind of
rollercoaster stream of consciousness, but it probably has increased substantially
since we last recorded, simply because I do those Gonzo series.
But I also think I more confident in my own
opinions now, so I can say, like, this is a
thought of my own rather than have to say, oh,
I'm citing this or citing this.

Speaker 4 (01:17:09):
Yeah, and you know, I've I've learned a lot more
about about Kabbala, of course, you know a lot more
about the also kind of the darker side of things.
With the book that I'm of course reading Life of
the Ruins. I've done the all Thursday through thing, which

(01:17:30):
is also incredibly interesting. So yeah, I've gained a lot
of understanding as well. And yeah, like you're rambling mind,
rambling thoughts, connecting, you know, all kinds of dots, no
matter how far apart they may be. Yeah, I'm I'm
used to that, and it's it's good to see that,

(01:17:53):
good to hear that that really hasn't changed. You know,
you're still You're still Jin the Ninja, just know wiser
and more more knowledgeable.

Speaker 1 (01:18:04):
He sounds like a proud father, doesn't he a.

Speaker 3 (01:18:07):
Proud He can be podcast daddy just for just this instance.

Speaker 1 (01:18:15):
Now he's got that issues.

Speaker 3 (01:18:17):
Well, the thing is is like I both Sein and
I were friends with another podcast. That's how he met,
and he's his show. I don't know what happened with it,
but it's on hiatus, we'll say temporarily, or a.

Speaker 4 (01:18:30):
Lot of health problems and familiar problems. I I I
do speak with him every now and then on on Instagram.
He actually just started recording again.

Speaker 3 (01:18:41):
Okay, good good. I heard actually Mike, who's sometimes on
The Rejects as well, he told me he him and
Lee had been speaking, So good good for Lee if
that's true. But what I was going to say is
that while he was in hiatus, Stein definitely gets that
title because technically Lee would be, but it has to
be Stein because Stein's like so active, He's like evolved

(01:19:04):
to show, grown a show, grown as a person, grown
as a magician. So I can only respect someone like
who's like a little bit higher knowledge than me. I'm
very egotistical, Andy.

Speaker 1 (01:19:17):
Nothing wrong with that, Nothing wrong with that. It's all.

Speaker 5 (01:19:21):
No.

Speaker 4 (01:19:22):
This has been there's been a great show, guys. This
is it has been awesome.

Speaker 1 (01:19:27):
And uh, I've just noticed that Stein's head. He's getting bigger.
He's gonna have to zoom his camera out again just
so he can fit it in. This is the second
show on the Trot now where Stein has got a
big head.

Speaker 3 (01:19:40):
This is the thing. Stein tolerates me. And I've said
really mean things to pagans online. I have like you
on YouTube, on viral clips. You could say maybe various things.
So if Stein fucks with me, you know I must
be cool. Is what.

Speaker 1 (01:20:00):
I mean.

Speaker 4 (01:20:00):
I said means stuff to everybody. You know, if you're
you're being stupid, I'll call you off for you. I
don't care who you are, what you work.

Speaker 3 (01:20:09):
No, this is how I feel like I'll say to anyone.
I'll say to the Ortho bros. I'll say it to
you know, it doesn't matter. You can make I'll tell
you the trick. Stein. If you ever want to quote
tweet an Orthodox bro, you just put a comparison picture
of the Coblistic tree with the Orthodox cross. But they
won't they won't respond, but they won't block you because

(01:20:32):
they know that that's winning.

Speaker 4 (01:20:34):
So there's a little that's twitter, MAT's aros.

Speaker 3 (01:20:42):
So I'm not blocked by Jay Dyer, so I must
be doing something right.

Speaker 4 (01:20:45):
Oh damn, Okay, Wow, he blocks everyone.

Speaker 3 (01:20:52):
Yeah, but I think he knows that. I know, because
like I, I kind of know, so he he kind
of thinks I know, so I do. Actually, So I
think he sees that because it is they they have
this their own metaphysics. They have their own interpretation of
the tree. That's why their cross looks just like one.
And so if you're smart, you can figure it out.

(01:21:13):
I'm smart, so I figured it out. And I'm just
it's not saying that I know like the deepest of
the deepest things in Orthodoxy. I don't really give a shit,
to be honest, just because it's like not my thing,
but you know, I respect it because I can see
inside of it is like magic, and it is like
a third tool. And they're using like the you know,
they're using Christ and the cosmology that I of course

(01:21:34):
grew up with that you know, to do it. There's
no problem with that. It's like with Stein. I don't
pray to you know, Pagan eighties, but I understand what
Sign's doing at core. Sorry. Yeah, that's what we all
should be doing. Everyone should magic, Max Thirgy, do your sodnas,
do yoga. I don't really do yoga anymore, but you know, meditate,

(01:21:57):
definitely meditate meditation number one.

Speaker 1 (01:22:00):
Yeah, meditating your own way that works for you.

Speaker 4 (01:22:03):
Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1 (01:22:04):
So a lot of people don't understand. They will hear
you saying this, Gina, meditate this kind of thing, and
they'll look into how you do it, how Styne does it.
You're meditating your own way. I have my own way.
I only learned it four or five years ago. When
it is just basically sitting quiet, nothing on in a
quiet room, and that's it's just basic, no thoughts in

(01:22:27):
your head, clear your head. That's my meditation.

Speaker 4 (01:22:31):
Yeah yeah, and mine is ju jitsu and weightlifting. That's
when I can clear my head, that's when I can
the vest on with the vest on.

Speaker 3 (01:22:42):
Yeah, yeah, you know, like the way I do it
is like obviously very contrac but the I do like
I do like a sound component. Now that might I know,
because a lot of people are training for postma and
like the thorough bond in kind of like a more
secular Buddhist And that's totally fine, there's nothing wrong with that.

(01:23:02):
I'm sure there's lots of realized people in those traditions.
I just I really think a sound like the word
component of the word, like we're talking about like anna
the sun. Well, what if that's just bullshit? What if
you say, like you know, the ants are bullshit, but
what if that carries the meaning of the word. So
like it just for me, that's how Buddhism would rationalize it,
Like we repeat the mantra to carry forth the word

(01:23:23):
into the world, which is really the truth, which is
really emptiness, which is really love and luminousness. So it's
really quite for me. It's very sociologically interesting and profound
to speak words into reality, which is also podcasting obviously.

Speaker 1 (01:23:39):
Yeah, true, for sure.

Speaker 4 (01:23:44):
I don't think on these wise words, we we should
wrap it up, air well, we'll definitely, we'll definitely have
you on again as soon as Andy has done that,
you know, his own work, has done all the googling
that he's do to kind not take a while and Hey,

(01:24:05):
you know, in the meantime there's always the great repagans
that you're you're always welcome back on.

Speaker 3 (01:24:09):
So anytime signs for real. As you know, I'm always
a happy to be asked by you and flattered. So
thank you so much, and thank you for obviously doing
amazing episodes with everyone and even people you don't agree with.
I think that's pretty much the takeaway from this whole
episode is that we all, even though we're different and

(01:24:30):
diverse peoples, we came together and we agreed that you
must be able to disagree.

Speaker 1 (01:24:36):
Yeah, exaltly, that's the one thing everyone should be able
to agree on. It's okay to disagree, yep.

Speaker 4 (01:24:45):
So jin in enclosure, Where may the the good people
find you? Where may they find more of your more
of your work, more of these capitalistic runts.

Speaker 3 (01:25:00):
Well, if you are interested in me interviewing people one
on one, you can follow me at Threshold Saints on
X and on IG. I call my show speculative experiments
in our serial experiments in speculative ontology. Excuse me. So
it's about metafiction and metamagic and meta reality. So it's

(01:25:21):
different ways of looking through pop culture as a hermeneutic
if you're interested in my couplistic slash what I call
audio Gnostic Gospels speculative of course, which we do with
the Gray Lodge. The Gray Lodge now has a YouTube channel.
Thank you to Matt Mura for setting that up, so
it's all of us. I am just the Dark King,

(01:25:41):
or the Dark Prince, as I often say, the Dark Prince,
So I'm secretly the boss. They all know I'm the boss,
but we pretend for that three hours that I'm just
the moderator. So I moderate of course with my co
host Solar Matt and Joshua the brand. So you can

(01:26:01):
check us out there live every Friday night, Friday Night
Gnostic Mass we're doing Welcome to Hapaboria Either Punk Part
three that's Friday nights on my ex. You can follow
me at Wukong Reborn do you u k O and
g Reborn. I'm redoing my link tree, so do not
click it, but you can look me up on any
socials and you can of course click the link tree

(01:26:22):
if you really want to and see the old episodes
that I haven't updated and like you awesome.

Speaker 4 (01:26:27):
Well, we'll make sure that all the all the important
links all minus the link free then are in the
inscription box down below. You can find across the pond
on TikTok. You can find us on Instagram, on Facebook

(01:26:48):
as well, and most importantly, you can listen to us
on all the bigger audio platforms. And if you're listening
to this on Spotif or Apple podcasts, do leave us
at five star rating and his little effort with big results.

(01:27:08):
If you're watching this on YouTube, thank you so much
for us for watching. Do not forget to leave a
likely leave something nice in the comments, or disagree with
us in the comments. Why not let's keep it.

Speaker 1 (01:27:22):
Please do by to every comment.

Speaker 4 (01:27:25):
Oh we we will, so you know we will.

Speaker 2 (01:27:29):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:27:30):
Also, you're only allowed to clip me for I g
in comments that are in clips that make me sound
as as intelligent as I want to be.

Speaker 4 (01:27:43):
I'll make sure that I.

Speaker 3 (01:27:46):
Complete independent control.

Speaker 4 (01:27:50):
I'll edit out the most big brain stuff and uh
YouTube like, look at how smart he is compared to
just two white boys.

Speaker 3 (01:28:03):
That's the problem is it takes me about thirty minutes
to reach the you know, the nextus point of where
my idea wants to go. Some people are more concise
with it.

Speaker 4 (01:28:14):
I mean, you do you and that's you know, it's special.
Let's say also, you know, if you are watching this
on YouTube, do subscribe and hit that notification bel so
you are notified to whenever a new upload comes live,
whether that be a standalone show or you know whatever.

(01:28:37):
Many many interesting guests and more of course coming. So
thank you, oh, thank you Jin, thank you Doctor not
as Evil.

Speaker 1 (01:28:49):
We will see you all soon. We will see you
all next time.

Speaker 7 (01:28:53):
Buyer one, thank you, SUSTA.

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