Rendlesham Forest Coverup: The Extended Encounter with Gary Heseltine

Often called “Britain’s Roswell,” the Rendlesham Forest incident has captivated UFO researchers and skeptics alike for over four decades. But what if the truth is even stranger than the official timeline suggests?

In this episode, we sit down with retired detective and author Gary Heseltine, whose deep investigation into the case challenges long-held assumptions. Far from being a brief two-night event, Gary lays out evidence that the Rendlesham incident may have unfolded over several weeks—and possibly involved direct physical interaction with non-human intelligences. We explore:

• Eyewitness testimony that never made it into official reports
• The suppressed timeline and military anomalies
• Why this case remains a critical linchpin in the global UFO phenomenon
• The implications of contact, not just sighting

Whether you're new to the Rendlesham mystery or think you’ve heard it all, this conversation will change how you view one of the most important UFO cases in history.

Guest: Gary Heseltine – Researcher, ex-police officer, and author of Non-Human: The Rendlesham Forest Incident – 42 Years of Denial.

Want to learn more and buy Garys excellent book? Follow this link:
www.ufotruthmagazine.co.uk

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
You know, for effect, dear our aliens.

Speaker 2 (00:07):
Our difference is worldwide would vanish if we were facing
an alien threat. Perhaps we need some outside universal threat
to make us recognize this common bound.

Speaker 3 (00:27):
Breaking news tonight, Sean Diddy Combs has been arrested in
an unhappy hotel.

Speaker 2 (00:37):
There's a relation to some comments that you made on
a Facebook page.

Speaker 4 (00:46):
This is a Fox News alert. The Epstein files have
been released.

Speaker 1 (00:51):
Across the Pond you're looking at now, sir.

Speaker 4 (00:55):
Everything that happens now is happening for sure.

Speaker 5 (00:59):
Now, good evening, and welcome to another episode of Across
the Pond with me Here u a p lee, your
host this evening, and my beautiful co host as ever,
Andy there.

Speaker 4 (01:11):
He's perhaps his hair this evening. I have to come
up with something else to rip you about, Andy. I
can't keep mentioning the hair.

Speaker 1 (01:19):
New material, Yeah you do, definitely.

Speaker 4 (01:22):
Yeah, for sure. Sorry, mate, I'll find some new material
for next time. But yeah, so you're with us again
Across the Pond. This is the podcast where we discuss
the undiscussable, We approach the subjects that others dare not
to And tonight we've got a very special guest with us,
Gary Hezeltyne. He's a former Arif police officer as well
as a civilian police detective and he's spent countless decades

(01:45):
now well I think it actually is countless decades researching
the Rndullshrom Forest incident, very famous U a p UFO
incident that happened here on our own waters in the UK.
So this evening we're very happy to announce that we
do have Gary with us.

Speaker 1 (01:59):
Gary welcome, Thank you very much for inviting me.

Speaker 4 (02:03):
Thanks for jumping on. I know you're a busy man,
and I know you've been through this a million times
with god knows whoever else rosscultat more recently, but yeah,
thanks for joining us, for coming on and joining us.
So I think probably it's polite to start at the
very beginning, just for those that may be a little
bit ignorant on the subject, maybe don't know anything about
Rendallsham and what happened there. So let's start the very beginning,

(02:25):
back to nineteen eighty if you will get it.

Speaker 1 (02:30):
Well. Before I get going, I kind of always try
to set the scene by saying it's an extremely complicated case.
I actually think it's probably the most complicated UFOUR case
in history because of the way that there's been as
agenda as at play, both by the British government, American government,

(02:52):
the Ministry of Defense, the USAir Force, the Royal Air Force,
you name it. Even some of the witnesses I believe
got agendas at play. And so the Rendolstrom Forest incident
has changed over the years. I mean, originally we knew
it took place in late December nineteen eighty at a

(03:14):
twin base complex called areaf Woodbridge and Area of paint Waters,
which is in Suffolk and approximately about eighty miles northeast
of London. And in between the two bases, which were
separated by about two miles distance, was a forest that
now we now know was called Reynoldson Forest, and it

(03:38):
was predominantly all about the forest for the first twenty
five to thirty years of the case, and then more
details have emerged over the years as other witnesses have
come forward, et cetera, et cetera. I was very interested
in the case really early on because I'd had a

(03:59):
child I had citing when i was sixteen. I'd followed
it for a long time, and then obviously when there
was a big newspaper headline in what was the News
of the World Sunday paper, UFO lands in Suffolk and
that's official. That's when I kind of really became aware

(04:20):
of it, and as did most people. Now the reality
is the case that had happened almost three years earlier,
but only local people knew of bits and pieces that
something had happened. But then in nineteen eighty three, this
News of the World headline gave a piece of paper
and that's official, and they were referring to what's called

(04:41):
the Halt Memorandum, which was an official US Air Force
document on noted headed US Air Force paper, and it
alluded to the fact that there'd been at least two
nights of UFO activity. Now, the memo never said UFOs.
It said unexplained lights, which I think was done deliberately.

(05:02):
But what was key to it is that it admitted
that two incidents had taken place, probably about twenty four
thirty six hours apart. And what was really quite unusual
was that it was written by the then deputy based commander,
Lieutenant Colonel Charles Holt, and it was a nuclear base

(05:23):
and we can talk about that later, but if you
asked him, he would say I can neither confirm or
deny simply because an officer and they didn't like talking
about nuclear weapons on British soil. But it was as
I said. We can confirm that later on, but suffice
to say that for many, many years we only thought

(05:46):
there were two nights of activity which related to the memo.
And so let's talk about those first two incidents first,
because that's in a sense historically where the story begins
to the wider masses. And memorandum refers to an incident
where a small triangular object described as three meters by

(06:11):
three meters in size, triangular and at its highest point
two meters in height, it looked like glass. It had
no engine, no protrusions, no rivets. It had some kind
of lights emanating within itself, but seemed to move around it. Also,

(06:33):
it was warm to the touch. According to one of
the USA Force police witnesses called Jim Penison, Assize Jim Pedison.
He said he was with beside this craft for about
forty five minutes, after following it through parts of renders
from forest until it got to a clearing. I'm putting
a lot out here from time brevity point of view,

(06:53):
but suffice to say that he came across the craft.
He wasn't on his own. He was with another aimon
called Aim and John Burrows. But John Burrow's perspective was
perhaps maybe twenty thirty meters away, so his perspective would
be slightly different, whereas Sergeant Jim Peniston was right beside
it and he walked around it, he drew pictures of it.
He actually took photographs of it with a camera that

(07:15):
he carried for crash incidents, thinking it was a downed
aircraft initially. But those photographs, he was told, came out folding.
He never he never got them back, never saw them.
Whether that's true or not, we don't know, but that's
what he said. He described like I said, as like
black glass three meters by three meters two meters, and

(07:35):
he said that at one point he saw strange symbols
on it, and at one point he ran his finger
across the surface and they're appeared to be raised figures,
like etchings on a windscreen. You know, he could feel
it under his fingers. We can talk about something that
he said thirty years later that he got some kind

(07:57):
of download of information that later.

Speaker 4 (08:02):
How do you want to deal with that by the way,
with questions, I don't want to keep jumping in.

Speaker 1 (08:05):
We just reaching oh no, we'll come back to that.
But because he didn't say anything about that for thirty years,
so let's do it in what we knew early on
these two incidents in the memorandum. So that's what he said. Now,
that's how he decided. Jim Benison described the object, which
he described clearly as as a mechanical craft of some

(08:28):
unknown origin. Now John Burrows was twenty thirty meters away.
He said that he saw a bank of lights that
suggested structure behind it, which is entirely feasible because you've
got bright lights emanating from it from his perspective twenty
thirty meters where he will not see the closeness of

(08:50):
the object because of the it was maybe obscured by
the bright lights. So that's what he said, and that's
what he kind of drew that he did some drawing,
et cetera himself. So that was essentially the first night
which had led to several people seeing it in the
distance moving through the trees. It was originally seen close

(09:14):
to the what's called the east gate, the rear gate,
the back gate for one of a better word of
arif Woodbridge, which was directly opposite the edge of the forest.
They got permission to go off base to follow this
these lights, which initially Sergeant Jim Penison put down to

(09:36):
he thought there was an aircraft in distress, and he
thought there'd been a plane crash, which is feasible enough.
It then turns out that it clearly wasn't that, and
in this clearing he had this event. Now, that was
the first case that was listed as having taken place
in the memorandum what's called the Halt Memorandum because it

(09:58):
was written by the Depth with his comanda. Now, the
second incident was approximately twenty four to thirty six hours later.
But this is really interesting for me because it involved
multiple people, multiple military witnesses, mostly usur for security place.
And what was more important of all of the memorandum

(10:20):
was the fact that the deputy based commander himself, the
guy who had wrote that memo, Charles Holt, had actually
said he'd seen multiple UFOs during the course of been
out in the forest for four and a half hours.
He'd seen things. Originally in the forest, he saw what
he describes as like an eye winking at you with black,

(10:41):
dark center of red glowing with a dark center like
an eye winking at you. And he said that it
appeared to be metal dripping off it. And he said
it was maneuvering between the trees underneath the canopy of
the trees. And this is interesting that the trees that
are there and now are not the ones that were

(11:02):
there in nineteen eighty because ninety percent of the trees
were all flattened in a storm in nineteen eighty seven,
so they've been replanted. So the forest, if you've ever
been there, it's not the same. There are one or
two trees left and they're twice the height, so you
can easily spot the real ones that are still there.
But the key thing with the trees at the time

(11:22):
was that they were called corsic and pines. And the
big thing about cross and pines is that their branches
don't begin until about fifteen to twenty feet off the ground.
So these were planted in rows like sticks are like cemetery,
you know, you think of military cemeteries. They're all laid
out very neatly in rows. It was like that, so

(11:42):
anything that was seen moving under the canopy of the
trees would easily be seen and easily spots. It wasn't
like it was underground in density.

Speaker 4 (11:53):
It's easy to imagine that as well. By the way,
isn't it anybody who's been in that military, Yeah, say,
anybody have been in the military, has ever worked in
a woodline that has been planted for that reason, I've
been harvested. You can see it now, the lines. It's
very clear and visible to see between the trees. It's
not like a traditional woodland where it's thick, denser y.

Speaker 1 (12:14):
It's it's very laid out in a geometric pattern. So
on this second incident, he literally took a team out,
a small team, five people including himself, and they were
out in the forest for four and a half hours.
Originally the forests seen the red object under the canopy

(12:36):
of the trees, and then they followed it through the trees,
and eventually they come to what's called the farmer's field
just till there now, and they see the object now
for the first time in the open air, and they
see it from the edge of the farmers field approximately
three hundred meters away to the other side of the
farmers field where there happened to be a farmhouse call

(13:01):
in the story the farmhouse farmer's house, and they were
approximately three hundred meters away and they see for the
first time clearly that there is an object to the
left of the farmhouse, low to the ground, maybe ten
feet off the ground. They described it as maybe being
the size of a car red glowing but it had

(13:22):
a dark center. They were able to view it through
a starscope which was early night vision, and confirmed that
it was there. And what was really interesting is that
the object was so bright and it was so close
to the farmhouse that it made it it cast a
reflection into the windows of the farmhouse. It made it

(13:43):
look like it was on fire. It was that glowing,
that bright. But the key thing is it was seen
to the left of the farmhouse from where they halt
in his group were now A lot of people have
tried to suggest that it was a lighthouse that was seen. Well,
always knew where the lighthouse was because it actually take
many friends there when they come to visit him, and

(14:03):
any dignitaries that you know, he take them out and
he'd be the good The host tacked them out to
the countryside, taken to a nice British pubs. There was
an it kind of a little village called offered Ness,
which is where the lighthouse was, which was obviously on
the on the right on the coast, and there there
was a number of places that he could take people to,

(14:27):
including pubs and things like that, so he would take there,
so he knew exactly where the lighthouse was. And he
said to me when I when I went around the
forest with him in twenty ten on a walk round that,
he said, what's really interesting those people that talk about
the lighthouse. It could never be the lighthouse, because here
we are looking at the object to the left of
the farmhouse, and I knew that way to the right

(14:49):
of the farmhouse, way off in the distance, about six miles,
there was the lighthouse. And sure enough, at night, every
five seconds blip one, two, three, four, five, blip, it
did not cast a beam in. Again, another of the
things that will come back to about how the story
and agendas at play, you know, because the BBC in
particular were the first ones to say it was a lighthouse,

(15:11):
and literally all the press jumped on it to try
to downplay it. So we can talk about that later.
But those were the two incidents effectively. Now the incident
doesn't stop for Holt when they see it across the
farmer's field, because they watch it for a couple of minutes,
and then suddenly it explodes, as Halt would describe it
into it changes from one red light to five white lights,

(15:38):
five white spheres that then suddenly disappear. So the red
light morphs into five white lights, or explodes into five wirelights,
and then each one disappear. And then as they're looking
and obviously we're amazed, they see further off on the
other side of the firehouse, way beyond in the distance,
they seal their objects in the sky, groups of objects

(16:00):
moving around making angular patterns, and so they think, right, okay,
we'll investigate this. We've come this far. So they crossed
the farmer's field on foot, which was then just like
a grass cowfield, and they go across. They walk past
the side of the farmhouse. They don't knock on the door,
they walk past it. They go into what's called second
farmers field. They cross a creek up into another field,

(16:22):
which is really the second farmer's field, but we talk
about that later. And eventually what they they're following these
lights in the sky that are making patterns in the sky.
And then when they in what's called well identified with
all the actual second farmers Field, which is nearby Supper Creek,
has described on his audio tape, and that's something I've

(16:43):
not mentioned yet. When it Halt is out there. One
of the things that he liked to do was make
notes on a small dictaphone. So it was just one
of these little small cassette tapes, you know, obviously giving
our age away, but that's what you had then, and
that was the height of technology, like writing notes. So
if he he'd say, write a letter to Colonel so

(17:04):
and so, and he do it in that and then
his secretary could down, you know, replay it and then
do the letter from there. So when he went out
and saw these strange things events taking place, he would
make sporadic recordings at various times, so a little snippets basically.

(17:25):
And at one point, when he's up past this creek
and into this what's really the second Vans Field, he
said that an object came towards he and his group
of five. So five of them stood there and this
object speeds towards them. That was in the sky, and
then it stopped stationary above their heads at approximately one

(17:45):
to two thousand feet altitude, and then it then switches
on akin to a laser beam that projected down close
to their feet, maybe ten feet away from the group,
And it was on for about twenty seconds, and then
it blinked off and the object raced away into the sky.
Then they noticed other objects moving in the sky, making
real patterns and zig zags. Cutting a long story short,

(18:09):
he and his team were out there for four and
a half hours. They're getting tired and wet, and the
story is that they then decide or halt decides we've
had enough, we're cold and wet, we're hungry. We're going
back in, even though which to my mind doesn't add up,
even though beams were being shone down to the ground
by at least one object when they decide to call

(18:30):
it off. Now, if you really thought you were dealing
with ET or some unknown event, unknown craft, or even
that you're attack, even if it was a conventional attack,
if you thought it was gone, you wouldn't just say, right,
we're going in now, lads, I've had enough. You know,
we're talking about a base three five days of the

(18:50):
year twenty four to seven. You wouldn't just go in
you'd stay as long as it took. You know, when
I was on the major incidents, when there'd been a
tree crash, I was on such so the train crashed.
For four months on that major inquiry when a car
hit a train and it dedrailed two trains, I was
on that for four months. Hardly went home literally to

(19:12):
grab a few hours sleep. And then you're back. So
you don't just go right, that's what we're going in now.
Nobody talk about that. Maybe we can come back with
it all right, So that's essentially what you had from
nineteen eighty three, and that memo been released. Then over
the years after that, other bits came out, like a

(19:35):
couple of people called Laurie Bowen and John Treman Tozi
who were USA for Security police, one male, one female.
They said that there'd been another incident involving a female
officer called Lieutenant Money Tampling, and nobody really knew what
had happened to us pice to say that. They confirmed

(19:56):
that over the radio they'd heard a shouting on the radio, help, help, Help,
and she was clearly in distress. And I think the
result was that whatever had happened to was so bad
she never went back on shift and she was quickly
shipped back to the States. Well, for a long time
we didn't know what that was. During the course of
writing this book, Non Human, which you alluded to, which

(20:20):
took five years of research in three years to write,
I came across what I think is the answer to that,
because a military waitness came forward. But let's just stick
about what we knew and the way the story fits together.
So this incident with this female officer, Bonnie Tamplin, appeared
to happen in between the Holt penistone night and Holt's night.

(20:45):
It seemed to be in the middle. You know, if
you look at the three of us on screen, you
look left and then see that that's penistone, Burroughs me.
In the middle would be this new incident, which is
Lieutenant Monty Tamplin you on the right, as I look
at it would be Holt's team and the events that

(21:05):
they saw. So in a sense, we now came away
that there'd been three nights of what looked like consecutive
nights of activity, and that's how it stayed. For a
long time, nobody really knew what definitively happened to Bonny
TAMPLT so in a sense, that's where we were prior
to twenty seventeen. In twenty seventeen, I then get approached

(21:29):
by a guy called Dion Johnson who was he was
a filmmaker, but he made short videos, music videos. He
was a very good editor, and he was a professional
doing short three four minute films, promotional films for businesses
and things like that. And he'd got wind of the

(21:49):
incident and was particularly fascinated by it, and he'd approached
me and said, look, I want to do a documentary
about Rendelson. Would you become the lead researcher? And I'd
never been asked that. I've been involved in lots, but
TV doesn't let you have those kind of titles. It's
all kind of made up, decided before you even get approached.

(22:13):
So whilst I've done lots of documentaries, nobody had ever
said do you want to be the lead researcher? And
I thought, well, yes, all right, fair enough, but if
I'm going to do this, I need to be totally
accurate about what I'm saying. And that stems from my
background as been a police officer and been in the
air force place, so thirty years of policing and nineteen
years as a detective, I kind of only look at

(22:34):
the UFO subject through evidentialized so it had to be accurate.
So in twenty seventeen, when I got asked about that
and agreed to do it, I then said, I'm going
to do a deep dive. I mean, I thought I
knew the case really well because I'd been researching it
for a long time, but not like on a full
time basis. Well, once I decided to do that, I thought,

(22:55):
I'm really going to do a deep dive, and amazingly,
I found a lot more material that I didn't know,
both historical and I also reinterviewed many of the witnesses,
the military witnesses, and using my advanced interviewing skills or
techniques that I've been taught in the police, I was
able to actually retrieve new information and new events from witnesses.

(23:17):
So that's how I approached it. So, cutting a long
story short, I then researched it for five years. I
do all these things I come up, and I ended
up writing the book Non Human. And the reality is
that instead of looking at the case and thinking there
was only two nights of activity and maybe three nights.

(23:38):
I would now say that we're probably looking at maybe
a week long period in late December, and that's based
on the fact that I spoke to a name and
called Steve Wagner, I would never go on camera. I
interviewed him and he basically told me about an incidant
that had happened to him in November of nineteen eighty,

(24:00):
just a few weeks before, and he'd seen strange lights,
et cetera. And when he'd reported it, he got basically
a bollocking from his senior officers. He said, we're not
interested in this. You keep quiet, you know, keep quiet back,
and he got ribbed by his colleagues, et cetera. So
he'd always said to himself, ifever I see anything else,
I ain't going to report it because I've got a

(24:22):
lot of grief, which makes sense, and so keep it
to it himself. Well, in the process of having this
conversation with him, I said, you know, did anything else
happened to you? And he said, well, there was a
strange thing. I said, well, what was that? And he said, well,
I didn't see UFO, but something strange. I said, all right,
told me the story. So Eventually he says that twenty

(24:42):
thirty December. Twenty thirty December. Now the whole memory random
refers to the twenty seventh and the twenty ninth has
been the key dates. They then we can go into
the fact that they then changed to the twenty sixth
and twenty eight, but that's by the bye. There's a
bit of an agenda there at player, I think, but
in the medi it's written now twenty seventh, twenty ninth. Well,

(25:03):
he is now saying it's the twenty thirty December, and
I said, how do you know that? He said, I'm
absolutely decerning it's the twenty third December because of birthday
or something like that. And anyway, he was pretty adamant.
And it's his a count, so I can't say, well, no,
you're wrong because it's his account. It's not my account,
it's his a count. So anyway, he's pretty adamant that
he can place it the twenty thirty December. He said,

(25:25):
I was called with a colleague on mobile patrol to
go to the East gate at arif Woodbridge, and which
is this back gate right next to the forest and
originally where lights have been seen by sergeant and Pennison
and ayman John Burrows, and they lays with an aiman

(25:47):
never really specified, but I think it's a security police officer.
The person's ever been identified. This is but basically the
airmen at the gate had said, I've seen some much
strange land over there, and he pointed to approximately one
hundred and fifty two hundred meters away from the then
position of where the East Skate was. Now, if you've

(26:09):
ever been to Rendall's from forest now in the East
skate Woodbridge, you see this famous skate that's always photographed.
But actually that was maybe eighty to ninety meters further
into towards the forest than it was in nineteen eighty
before it was ninety meters further back. And so then
you've got to again orient take yourself from where he

(26:32):
said he was, and then forty five degrees basically to
his right, and he said there were a clump of
trees that are not there now were there then of
these court compants, And he said he was frightened, he
was kind of visibly distressed, and he didn't want to go,
he didn't want to attend, but he said something landed

(26:56):
behind that clump of trees and he's only pointing one
hundred and fifty meters away. This is by far the
closest anybody's ever got to the actually es Gate, and
he's referring to an entirely new incident. And I said, well,
what happened? He said, well, the aim and was clearly upset.
We said, yeah, we'll check it out, he said, And

(27:16):
I went with a colleague and we went. We went
into the forest with torches and we came across this clearing. Now,
one of the things I mentioned is that on that
original penicen and Burrows landing the small triangular craft, it
had left three indentations in a perfect equilateral triangle on
the ground. And each of these depressions were of the

(27:37):
same size and same depth, approximately eight nine inches in diameter,
so relatively small footprint, but each the same shape. Plastic
cast were taking as well, that's by the bye. So anyway,
think of depressions in the ground, what you would say
physical evidence of something that's probably put weight on the
ground and created these depressions. That's what conclusion you draw. Well,

(28:01):
going back to Am and Steve Wangner, he said, well,
we came across the clearing and he said, we came
across and triangular pattern of depressions. I said, okay, he said,
well perfect, your perfect equal ateral. Try and ask us
outside how big were the depressions? He said, well, each
one was about five feet across, five feet across. He

(28:23):
ever mentioned something like this, So is that a part
of the Rendersomb story. I say it is because that's
suggesting that something very large had come down in those
trees and created the way to create those depressions, and
you've got somebody visually seeing it. And then it matches
the story that it's something has come down and it's
left ground impressions, ground evidence, as it were, trace evidence.

(28:45):
So that I added that then to the story. So
I think instead of starting on the twenty seventh, twenty ninth,
it really begins now based on this testimony on the
twenty thirty December, because I have no reason to dismiss
what he's saying. If he saw adamant that it's beforecused,
that's what he remembers. It befocused, all right, So let's

(29:07):
move on. So that's something that came out that had
never been not And then you talked in the intro
about talk about Sergeant Adrian bestinsa, Well, this was somebody
kind of a mythical figure in the sense though he
had seen things, people knew that he'd seen things. He'd
made a few social media accounts, but very brief, confirming

(29:33):
that he'd had instances or you know, he'd seen things,
but he didn't really like all the way that the
media were handling it, trivializing it, ridiculing people. And then
for a time in the in the mid too late
twenty fifteen onwards twenty sixteen onwards to about twenty eighteen
to nineteen, there was a huge explosion of client claims

(29:58):
and counterclaims saying that this and the original military whistle
blower was a guy called Larry Warren, that he'd lied
about it. He Boriaidin's account. Well, we'll come to that
in time, but suffice to say that sageant Adrian Burstin's
it turns out to mind Manan to be one of
the most important witnesses in the whole event, because he

(30:22):
indirectly is a linking person to a series of events,
and in the book he comes up with two entirely
new events that nobody had ever heard about. Accounts given
to me in a four and a half hour transatlantic call,
and basically he's a sensational witness. The trouble was he

(30:42):
didn't like publicity. He'd suffered what I would regard as
PTSD from what happened to him, and unfortunately, after the
incidents that he saw, he was really given a hard
time by the military agencies involved, probably the Officer for
Special Investigation in the USI, which is like the Air

(31:04):
Force detectives, but also he was interviewed by other agencies
and basically he was basically told bullets are cheap. If
you say anything, we'll kill you. And year he was
a young sergeant who signed up to do good for
his country and then he's been treated like a criminal
through no fault of his own. Just happens to be

(31:25):
the wrong place at the wrong time, and he's then
been threatened with being dead. His family with work, the government,
he was threatened, his dad was threatened with losing his job.
He was terrible. The house was being surveiled in America
where he lived, and so he really had a hard
time and he did not really ever want to go

(31:46):
on camera or be interviewed. And I tried for two
years to get hold of him and Eventually he agreed
and we ended up this having this four and a
half hour transatlantic call. Well he is, like I said,
he came up with two new incidents, one of which
was totally bizarre in the sense of he said that

(32:10):
he'd been ordered to create a line of officers like
a skirmish line, or you know, like a search team
where you imagine people going across the field looking for
a knife, for any evidence. They're on the knees going forward,
maybe twenty of them, bit by bit, in case you
find someone in the undergrowth. Well he was told to
do that. Now nobody ever talked about this, and this

(32:32):
is before Holt even gets to the forest. Because he
had this roving commission, he was called the NCOIC, which
basically meant he was the non commissioned officer in charge,
and essentially he was on a mobile patrol and we
would call people in the Air Force, gophers, go for that,
go for this, go for this, get me those lighthols,

(32:54):
get me some supplies, get this for me. And he
became a golfer so his So what it meant was
that basically he would be making several trips to the forest,
of which of which he would bring stuff and then stop,

(33:17):
so he had lots of opportunities to see different things
prior to Holt get in there. So he on one
occasion is there and he's dropped off whatever he's dropping
and probably light holls, which are these portable generators that
could light up the forest. And he was then told
by a senior officer create get fifteen twenty people, create

(33:39):
like a scamish line of search line ten meters apart,
and then go forward into the forest towards the farmers
field in effect. And he did that. So that's an
entirely new incident. And during the course of that he
saw multiple UFOs in the forest, so no one had
ever heard of that. And then another one is where

(34:00):
he had been involved in an incident with a person
called John Burrows, the same Aim and John Burrows who'd
been with Jim Peniston, so from a few nights earlier,
and he said that this had happened on Holt's night
when Holt had been out. So if you think of
that one two three incidents cram together that we kind

(34:22):
of put together. He's like the third incident with Holt
where it Holtz led a team out done out four
and a half thousand then come back in. Well, he
was part of Holt's team, so that's important in itself,
so he saw a lot of things. But then when
they came back in, they had to walk back to
an area that's become known as the staging area, and

(34:43):
the staging areas it's now known, is an area where
all the vehicles had to park up because there was
no path further into the forest, so they had to
stop because they couldn't go any further. So therefore this
rough area of outon ground became a place where six, a, ten,
twelve vehicles were all packed up, loads of military personnel

(35:03):
roaming roun thinking what the hell are we're doing? Is
kind of a chaotic scene, and so they get back there.
So Holt comes back a name and John Burrows, who
had been off duty on Holt's night, had got wind
that something was going on in the forest, which is
a bit odd in itself because he lived seven eight
miles away in Ipswich and he was off duty. So

(35:23):
how he found out, I don't know, but he did,
and he managed to get a lift back to the
base and then he managed to get a lift over
to the forest, which is kind of bizarre in itself,
but he said it was there. And on the audio
tape that Holt made, there's reference to John Burrow's trying
to join the Holt's team, and Holt is at one
point saying, no, keep everybody back, you know, we'll I

(35:46):
don't want anybody coming forward. Stay where you are. So
he was waiting for them to come back in. So
when he comes back in with Bustins, Holt comes back in,
John Burrows is waiting for him. He says, can I
go back out there? And Holt seemingly says, well, if
you must go, and then have a few minutes out there,

(36:06):
and John Burrows says to Sergeant Agent bestinsa will you
come with me now? Quite how he took that, having
been out for four and a half hours walking around
the forest and then being asked to go back out
there again, he agreed, strangely, but he agreed for a
few minutes anyway. So he gets permission to go out

(36:28):
and there's the two of them walking out from the
staging area back through the forest and in an area
that he describes as being quite close to the forest
to the farmers field, so not quite the farmers field,
but somewhere nearby, never totally identified exactly where. He said,
He's on a footpath and basically John Burrows is walking

(36:50):
ahead of him, and John Burrows is about six foot six,
is built like a brick outhouse, right, and so you
can't miss it. And you know, Adrian burstin's's five ten
and whatever. So he's walking a few minutes behind him,
and then he says, suddenly, I feel as if I'm kicked.
My legs are kicked from behind, he says, and I
fall forward onto my knees, and as I fall forward,

(37:13):
I put my hands out like you would to protect yourself.
And he said, at the same time, he sees a
huge beam of white light in gulf John Burrows, like
an explosion of light all around him. And John is
in the middle of this incredibly bright, powerful light. Now,
when he's in Gulf by the light, Adrian Bestin's is

(37:36):
looking forward twenty meters or so sees John and Gulf,
and he said, within this body of light, he sees John,
who's six 't six, clearly in the middle, all bit
blurred out by the light. But he says he saw
a smaller figure to his left, and then a smaller
figure child light to his right and John Guy in

(38:00):
the middle. So that's interesting. And at the same time
that the light came on, part of the light shone
onto his groin area and onto one of his hands,
and ever since then he's had a rash in both places.
So you could maybe call that a physical effect of
close optimity ufore, but what strange incident And to describe

(38:24):
two kind of entities for one of a better word
on either side of Big John for one of better phrays.
So he'd had that incident, but Pustincia had also had
a major incident that he talked about early in nineteen
eighty four when he was first interviewed by various people

(38:46):
who are doing research in nineteen eighty four, after the
case had kind of hit worldwide headlines in October nineteen
eighty three. And the way he described things in a
written interview, and there's a transcript to him above, is
he clear talking about another landing. But it's a landing
that didn't seem to fit with Jim Peniston's and John Burrows.

(39:08):
So again another piece of the puzzle. Well, when we
were doing this transatlantic call, we're talking four and a
half hours and it didn't begin untill one in the
morning for me. He just come in from work, and
I thought he canceled it and would arrange all the time,

(39:28):
but he said, no, I'm all right. And then he
got right into it, and so he was like, you know,
it was it was kind of cathartic for him. He
was he was his air and his soul was it
bare and he got right into it, concentrating and he
was really and so And anyway, some three hours into
this four and a half hours, he hadn't talked about
this other landing. And I'm thinking, I'm getting tired here.

(39:51):
The lights started to come with four o'clock in the morning,
and I'm thinking, Jesus, you know, because when you're concentrating,
you're asking questions, You'll know I'm doing what you're doing there, Yeah,
thinking of questions and blah blah blah. I'm thinking I'm flagging.
I'm sad flag. And so I had to do what
I wouldn't normally do. I had to kind of lead
him at one point and say, look, you've been talking
for three hours. It's how brilliant. I said. I don't

(40:12):
want to lead you, but I'm getting a bit tired.
Here because of the time difference. I said, I want
to refer to an incident that an interview that he
did in nineteen eighty four, and he said, okay, okay,
And I said, you were interviewed, and you talk about
another incident that appears to suggest to landing that kind
of thing. And he started then and he said, yeah,

(40:35):
it involved Larry Warren. Well, he never mentioned this, Larry Warren,
who was the original military whistleblower, the person who's account
he almost ninety percent corroborates. And he said yeah, he said,
he said he was actually closer to the craft than me. Well,
filling in the backstory. Larry Warren was the first person,
the military person, first military person to say my name

(40:58):
is Larry Warren. And I saw this, you know, So
that's why he becomes that whistleblower. But his account didn't
match anybody else's. Certainly it didn't match hol didn't match Penicon,
he didn't match Burrows. So when they retired in nineteen
ninety one, ninety three, and ninety five, they all started
attacking him, saying, nah, he won't Ah, it's all made up.

(41:19):
So this is where the animosity starts turning towards Larry
Warren and nobody believed him. Well. Bustins had said things
over the years in a few social media pieces saying
Larry was there, Larry was there. We'll cutting a long
story short three hours into this, and I turned the
situation to Larry Warren in particular, and he said, yeah,

(41:41):
he was actually close to the craft for me. Well,
Larry Warren had originally said that he'd been taken into
the forest with lots of others and he was told
to join a cordon around some strange mist in a
circular pattern approximately fifty feet in diameter of a ground
hugging missed a circular patch of fog for want of

(42:02):
a better word, but it was like one two feet
off green and it was kind of glowing and it
kept its pattern, which is bizarre in itself, but imagine
according of fifteen ten fifteen USA for secret place around it.
He said the incident was being filmed on early video
and also on a tripod CNE camera, which was much
more common in those days. And he said there were

(42:23):
British police officers stood by the edge of the forest,
and he said eventually at one point senior officers turn
up and there seemed to be a silent face off
with what appeared to be three floating entities that were
beside a craft that emerged where the fog had been.
And he said, what had happened was a red light
had coming from the coast. He'd heard somebody the other

(42:46):
hear it comes, and he said, the lights stopped over
the mist. There was an explosion of light, and then
when their eyes readjusted where the mist had been, there'd
been like a twenty thirty foot diamond shapeft crescent shaped
craft where the had been. And he said from that,
three beams emerged from like a bubble that slipped off

(43:08):
the fabric that then divided one bubble into three. And
in the up when you looked at the three bubbles,
in the upper part of the bubble was the upper
torsal of a small humanoid figure that looked like childlike
what we would probably refer to as grays now small gray.
And so anyway, so this incredible event, and it sounds

(43:28):
like science fiction. But when I spoke to Adrian Pristina
and he said, yeah, but Warren was there, so straightway
ended all the debate because he was the one that
really knew he was there next to him. He said
he was close to the craft and I was in
the cordon around it. And he said the craft was there,
and he was religious and he did not like to

(43:50):
talk about aliens and entities because it messed with his faith.
But he had to acknowledge that there was some kind
of life form there, so he referred to them not
as entities, aliens or creatures. He referred to them as silhouettes.
That's how he was essentially saying there was a life
form there, right, But it was difficult for him to

(44:11):
talk about so he corroborated the fact that it was
being filmed motion picture. He said there was only one camera,
but it's maybe just from his perspective. He on his hold,
but he said there were British police there. He said
at one point Colonel Holt was there. Colonel Holt's always
denied being involved in that event. He said that Colonel Williams,

(44:31):
the base commander of twelve personnel of the twin Basis,
the top top guy, was in this silent face off.
He said he was there. And he said further, he
said Holt actually told gave him an order to confiscate
two still cameras. From the British Police put me in
plastic bags and give them to all of which Halt denies.

(44:52):
So you kind of have this intrigue. But when I
looked at Adrian Bestinsa as a character and as a person,
the guy i'd have over forty years of military police,
then he became civilian place officer, sheriff kind of thing,
you know, law enforcement, and then when he kind of

(45:15):
retired from police, and he then got involved in working
with young offenders, so he went into the prison service
in a form and working with defenders, trying to rehabilitate people.
So this guy is an absolutely stand up guy and
I have no reason to suspect that he's lying at all.
And as an advanced interviewer, I taught in psychological training

(45:36):
on what to look for in people are lying. You know,
he comes across from really really spot on. And I
had ended up having a video interview with him as
well a few weeks after that initial audio, and it's
the only time he's ever been on camera, and he
did a skype interview with him that features in the

(45:56):
Capable Green film, which we can talk about in this
limited time we've got available. We've only got fifteen minutes
left and basically he would turns out to be an
absolutely phenomenal witness. So that's him. So this incident of
the second landing occurred, but the thing that he said

(46:18):
to me was it won't the whole night, it was
another night. I went well, and he said, no, I
think that's another night. So this it seems to extend
it even further with me. So this is why I'm
saying approximately over a week long period. It's not the
three nights like we were two nights then three nights.
It's not like that. I think it's over about a

(46:38):
week long period. And of course this far down the line,
you're never going to be able to pin down people's
memories absolutely accurate. It's just impossible. We're talking forty five
years down the line.

Speaker 4 (46:52):
Yeah, yeah, so a long time. You've been looking at
it for a long time. But if we look at
you know, one of the things that I really love
about this topic, and one of the things that sort
of made me fall in love with it, especially over
the last year and a half, is that once you've saw,
you know, once you've once you've really looked into one incident,
and then you hear another and another and another. The
same patterns start emerging through a lot of them. You know,

(47:13):
you hear a lot of similarities from such and such
a story to another one and to another one, and
then a lot of the stuff that you've just said
there has made me completely look at the whole thing differently.
And I think that when you could correct me if
I'm wrong, but if I'm looking at this from the
outside and having not just spoke to you there and
learned that a little bit extra, you'd be compelled to
think that John Burrows and Jim Peniston and Colonel Holt

(47:39):
are you know, the men to go to on this.
They're the people in the know there. They want to
have big experience, Yeah, for many years, and you know
you can talk about in Jim Peniston's notebook and what
was found later, and you know the hypnotic regression that
came later and allowed for the explanation of some of
the stuff in the notebook, and again what you've just
said there. If I was to make assumption, and it

(48:00):
is only an assumption based on what I've heard, I
would say that the original story and what everybody knows
about Rendilton up until now is essentially half truth with
a lot of ballocks and cover up, speaking bluntly, and
then what you've added on there. It sounds a lot
like to me that you know those last two individuals

(48:22):
the Bastinza and who did you say the other guy was.

Speaker 1 (48:24):
Larry Larry Warren.

Speaker 4 (48:27):
Larry Warren. That's it. It sounds like those two are
the ones who are sort of essentially worth listening to
the most.

Speaker 1 (48:33):
Again some parts into context. I have no doubt that
Holt was involved in the whole night when he took
a team out, but I think he knows a lot more.

Speaker 4 (48:46):
To make an assumption. And this is where I want
to bring Richard Doughty in and what you mentioned earlier
with the OSI officers, he's already been debunked as somebody
who was employed by the Air Force to spread this information, right, yeah,
you know this, and we know he was an SI
officer around the same time. There's no reason and we
know again from similar stories, protocols are, you know, a

(49:09):
slip of information before a cleanup crew essentially turns up
and tides the whole thing up. And that sounds like
it's what's been done with Colonel Holt. Jim Peniston, John Burrows.
They put a bow on that, and then years later
we have what's really happened from people who've got a
hell of a lot more to lose, who have been silenced.
You know, well, I say a lot less to lose,

(49:30):
but it's easy to deal with them.

Speaker 1 (49:32):
What you're saying is what I concluded in the book
is that I believe Holt, Peniston, less so Borroughs had
agendas to try to control the narratives, and in particular
they were aided and a vetted by Nick Pope, the
MRD man who went on to have this incredible career

(49:54):
based on the fact that he was not an investigator
at all. He documents that providing the book. There's a
chapter on Nick Pope. And I met him and he
was affable enough, But when I started to get involved
in the in the Cable Green research, he then started
to say, I should be arrested on social media for

(50:14):
being involved in a fraudulent documentary. Why would I do that?
Why would I risk my reputation to come up with
a hoax? You know, what's the point? You know? But anyway,
that's what he said, and he said it on multiple occasions.
But when you actually look at Nick Pope's a very
interesting role in his links to rnaissance because he is

(50:36):
like a central figure and he's become like the number
one civilian figure to talk about Renaistrant, even though it
was on a misnomer. I produced documents in my book
that said that he only worked on a basically, if
you think of a forty hour week, five eight five
eight hours Monday to Friday, he only worked on the
UFOs one day a week. The rest was other admin. Well,

(50:58):
you're not an investigative, only do eight hours a week.
He never got any formal investigative training. He basically was
there to just respond to where people had wrote in
saying I've seen this, and they would get various documents, telegrams,
telexis as it was then, and he'd make a few

(51:18):
phone calls here and there. Occasionally there'd be some more
juicier sighting by a pilot or a police officer, and
he'd be a bit more interested in those. But he
wanted to train to investigate. He never went out, he
never researched, never went to any of the scenes, and
yet suddenly he becomes really famous, gets green card liquidly
embedded into the American circuit. Which I find a bit

(51:41):
order and a bit quick, and he very quie actively
is in position to control the narrative of Rendelston for
about the last twenty five thirty years, and he's done
it very well. Well.

Speaker 4 (51:51):
This is again one of them things when you start
recognizing the patterns and you see the people that are connected. Right,
this is Nick Pole who was completely and this is there.
He's confessed that one of his predecessors that he took
over from on the desk bragged about having the gal
the Calvine picture on the wall as a still with

(52:11):
the witch was confiscated from an eye from a witness,
the first hand witness that took the still, right, and
that was taken that ended up in the mo d's
office when Nick Polp worked. Yeah, and then he magically
goes over to the USA and gets embedded within that system.
And then you get people like Louis Lazando. You know
what's the chapter we just mentioned previous, the disinformation, Richard

(52:37):
Doughty guys, and they're all operating in the same circles,
but they're all connected to stories that stink of cover ups,
you know what I mean. So you can connect those dots.

Speaker 1 (52:49):
I think that the real story with Reynoldshim is when
the that memo was never supposed to be published. It
came out indirectly through Larry Warren coming forward saying I'm
a witness, and they tried loads of freedom of information
requests to try to gain information and up until Larry

(53:09):
Warren came forward and said I put my name to this,
and they put in another FOI with his saying we've
got now got a named witness. That's when it suddenly
turns up and that causes the who ha. Now there's
a very famous incident in a bit of film taken
by James Fox to the Filmmaker where he interviews Colonel

(53:30):
Gordon Williams after he's retired from the USA Force, and
it's clearly had maybe a round of golf, and he's
leaning on the side of his car and he said
in his asking about Reynoldson and I always remember, and
it came back to not halted me, but came back
as something that's a recurring thing. This is important, and
basically said, once that memo came out, we couldn't put

(53:52):
Humpty back together, Humpty Dumpty back together again, And so
basically they had admit that there'd been two incidents. What
he was effectively saying is unless this paperwork will deny
any other incident, they couldn't deny the two incidents, So
I think everything else that happens, and I really do

(54:14):
believe that Holt and Colonel Williams was involved in that
second land and we bustin Zer and Warren that he
knows a lot more. Holt had said to various people.
A lady called Georgina Brunei, who wrote a very good
book on Reynolds from in two thousand and calls you
can't tell the people. It's the really first good independent

(54:36):
non witness book about the witness, about the witnesses and
trying to pull it all together. And it's a really
good book. But she wanted a eupologist or anything. She
was just basically a hot gossip kind of reporter, and
then she got interested in she did this, and suffice
to say that in the course of her interview in Holt,

(54:59):
she said public on video, and I've got clips of
it where she says Holt told me there were eighteen
minutes of audio. There were almost five hours of audio,
and we expect that knows a lot more. And he'd
said to her privately, I can't tell you all the
things that happened because it's just too mind blow. And

(55:20):
he had not just said that to her, he'd said
it to a British solicitor called Harry Harris, who was
an investigator in the late eighties early nineties. He'd said
the same to him. Now, I've no reason to disbelieve
why she would then go on camera and potentially slammer
herself by claiming something that wasn't true from her perspective.

(55:40):
So I kind of believe her. And as I got
to know Holt, I met him or I had like
a seven year working relationship within bite, largely by email,
but I met him twice. Was that I came to
realize that Holt knew a lot more and he wasn't
being totally honest with me. And that's why I kind
of ended our seven year collaboration process, because I realized

(56:03):
he knew a lot more. And by then I'd realized
how we spoke and how we phrase things, and how
he said, oh, when I've spoke to his supervising officer,
but he never names a supervisor offer, he never produces
any evidence. He just says things and nobody ever challenges
him because he's a colonel. Colonels can't do no wrong. Well,

(56:27):
you know, I'm sorry. Colonel's all ranks can lie. I
know he does lie at times.

Speaker 4 (56:32):
The thing is, you know, and again, and you'll know
this from being military yourself, gerry, is that the higher
up the ranks you get, essentially you've got a lot
more that can be used against you as a threat.
A colonel looking at a colonel's pension, and you know,
and again, other non enlisted, non enlisted soldiers such as
staff sergeants and sergeists, they're on a decent pension. They're

(56:53):
looking at you know, there's a lot to threaten a
man about. But when you've got this is making the
connection on. There's an easy way here that Holt could
have easily have been gotten to like the rest of them,
as if to say, right, you've said too much, don't
say anything else, keep shut up.

Speaker 1 (57:10):
Well, I think after the memorandum comes out, I think
is told we'll leave you alone. But you're only ever
going to admit to those two incidents and anything else
you're going to ridicule. You disagree, And he's often you know,
other people have come forward over the years, and he said, no,
that didn't that instead of embracing them and saying, you know,
I'm the most senior officer to go on the record.

(57:32):
We're all part of this together. Let's work together, and
I'll hope you you know, you come forward. We've all
got different perspectives. That's what you should be doing as
a as a senior officer who cares for your men
kind of thing. But he didn't. It's better often being
very divisive. So I think the bottom line was the
whole memorandum came out and they basically said that's all
you can ever talk about, and of course things like

(57:53):
another landing and aliens and things like that can't talk
about that. So if I was to.

Speaker 4 (57:59):
Put you on the spot and then Gary and test
all of your skills as a detective and put you
on the spot, is this a cover up? In your opinion?

Speaker 1 (58:08):
Yes, at various levels. And I think that various people
have covered it up to downplay the significance of what occurred.
I do believe that there was film taking, movie footage
taking of this landed craft. I think that was almost
certainly existed, flown to Jamie originally and then off to
the Washington the Pentagon, and we kind of all this

(58:31):
because there was a researcher who did some great work
called Ray Boucher, American guy who worked for Newphone, and
he did three years of research between eighty four and
eighty six on Reynolsham and he came up with some
great interviews. He was the first person to interview how
he rang him up one day, art of Blue and
things like that. So he'd done some great research. And

(58:53):
you know, it's obvious that the likes of Halt knew
a lot more. And I suspect penistone and knew some things.
But I think Holt is a key player because I
think he was told to just talk about the two
incidents and try to control the narrative. And when it
comes to TV documentaries, the way it works with UFOs

(59:14):
is because it's such a strange, kooky subject, as it were,
to the main populace, they go to somebody like Holt
and say who do you want on the show because
they don't have a clue. A researcher will say who
do you want on the show, and he'll say, well,
I wants I want, And so that way the same
people turn up each time, and that narrative is carefully controlled.

(59:35):
Nick Pote, who do you think we should have on this, Well,
I think we should have Holt there exactly, and that
narrative I believe has been controlled.

Speaker 4 (59:44):
So I think there was a.

Speaker 1 (59:46):
D notice that was served on the British media by
the government that said can't prove it. But it's logical
to me that they then said something's happened, but we
can't talk about it. For national security. You are not
allowed to talk about this other than trivializing it. We
want to play it down, and I think within the
days the press playing it down and then everybody jumps

(01:00:07):
on the bandwagon. Fifty sixty documentaries have been made over
the last forty odd years and they're all talking about
a lighthouse.

Speaker 4 (01:00:18):
No Gary. Just to add to this is, if you
think about you, if we just focused on the uk
UFO incidents, that would have happened again have been investigated
a high level. You can look at the Pentrick case
and then you look at the Calvine case and they
all have similar ties. You know from the eyewitnesses and
the people that.

Speaker 1 (01:00:37):
The Pentridge case people talk about that it's an incredibly
good case. Well, it's an interesting case, but it lacks
any whistleblower. There's alleged huge military activity. But unless a
whistleblower comes forward, like Larry Warren who says, yeah, I
was part of that military cover up, it's not it's
a non story. It's never going to get any bigger

(01:00:58):
because it's nowhere to go from the military side.

Speaker 4 (01:01:00):
But the kas Clark obviously be civilian witness.

Speaker 1 (01:01:04):
But it's do you see what I mean? It can't
get more relevant, it can't get more famous as it were,
it lacks any kind of military corroboration.

Speaker 4 (01:01:15):
The reason I mentioned those things is just to connect
the dots that you hear similar stories of how things
are dealt with. You know, not necessarily threats are made,
but certain things are covered up and information disappears, and
certain information isn't released whereas it usually would be. And
the things things that I would refer back to things
and the rendostion case from the guard rooms of those camps,

(01:01:35):
occurrences book within the guardroom, things like that, the qu
RF going out that would have been listed. You know,
the radar operators this is a nuclear base, they'd have
known if something was over there. And things like that
would have been listed. It would have been.

Speaker 1 (01:01:51):
When Holts well allegedly the current's point.

Speaker 4 (01:01:55):
Usually that information is readily available, and in this.

Speaker 1 (01:01:58):
Case it's not not in your four terms. It's often
your key documents, UH, Navy detlogs disappear, you know, mysteriously
it flew out of the window into the sea.

Speaker 4 (01:02:11):
Dogated.

Speaker 1 (01:02:12):
That's basically has happened before.

Speaker 4 (01:02:14):
But it doesn't lie anymore, does it With the world.

Speaker 1 (01:02:18):
If you look at the subject worldwide and going back
to the forties, it's it's clear that's cover up, largely
demonstrated by the United States going back eighty years. But
that's another another topic, another subject. But in terms of
there's there's been covered up by the US Air Force,
the US government, the British Air Force, and the Ministry

(01:02:41):
Defense and the British government. I think there's been media
blackouts to trivialize it. You know, you'd think that when
I give them all these new incidents, which I did
to the press, that it would be front page news.
TV crews not interested. But if somebody comes forward and
says it's a it was as a police card rolling
around the forest with sirens on, then we'll give it

(01:03:05):
the coverage. So you negative about the case, I'll get
a lot more publicity. But if I'm positive for the case,
then then you don't get much publicy.

Speaker 4 (01:03:17):
We'll just start looking to wrap it up now. But
what I will say one thing I wanted to mention
to you. We've got a guest on, a returning guest,
Mark Christopher Lee, is coming back on and one of
the things that he announced the other day was that
he has been contacted by an intelligence official or an
ex intelligent official who claims to be or claims to
have information and documentation regarding the pen Trick case and

(01:03:40):
two other crash retrievals that went ahead here in the UK.
And that's one of the things that we're going to
be discussing with him on tomorrow night's podcast. Actually, on
the next episode, send me a link to that.

Speaker 1 (01:03:51):
I'm away tomorrow so I won't be able to hear it.
What time is it going out?

Speaker 4 (01:03:58):
Yeah, I've done tomorrow night. I would have thought.

Speaker 1 (01:04:01):
I've kind of read up on this, and you know,
as far as I'm aware, he's talking about that there's
going to be Parliament getting involved and whatever, Well, I
suspect that that's not the case, I'd like to be
proven wrong, Parliament to be interested. But the way I've

(01:04:22):
seen it over the last twenty two years that I've
been a public twenty three years have been a public researcher.
Now the md lae out the teeth. The British media
totally complicit it. They don't show and particularly since the
release of the three Navy videos from twenty seventeen onwards

(01:04:43):
New York Times article, Britain's gone backwards. It's like we've
been in the fifties. So I'd been absolutely amazed that
any politician is going to organize hearings like congressional hearings.
We're one hundred years behind. I completely agree with you
in my opinion, So I'd like to be wrong. And

(01:05:03):
if some guy has got the proof, then great, but
let's look at the proof.

Speaker 4 (01:05:07):
Well, I think, I say, the UK Disclosure Team, I've
still got an ear to them at the minute. I'm
listening and watching what they're doing. So I've got an
ear in there and I'm watching what they're trying to
push for. Obviously, Mark's got the interview with the with
the the information from this intelligence official, which I'll be
interested to listen to what he's got to say on
that one. The reason, oh absolutely. But the reason I

(01:05:28):
brought that up and what I wanted to put to
you was in your view, where do you see disclosure
coming from? Remove us from the equation in the UK.
Where do you see things moving.

Speaker 1 (01:05:40):
In the UK. The UK is not going to be
at the forefront of this because we saw miles behind
from twenty seventeen. You know, we're distancing ourselves. You know,
they had how Our Lord's debate and it was like
listening to a fifties debate about USOS. It's trivialized, it
as napier, absolute crap, bullshit. But so I don't think

(01:06:02):
it's a UK. The reality is I think that we're
closer to her what's termed as a catastrophic disclosure moment,
which is the least desired option, because I often say
to people that if something like the Phoenix Lights event
from nineteen ninety seven happened tomorrow and a huge mild
wide craft boomerang shaped was seen over two hundred miles

(01:06:24):
against the night sky and was filmed now on four
K eight K phones, live streams contain the live streaming
would mean that they couldn't control the surge of people
logging on, going, Jesus Christ, what's this? We're all live
streaming and you see what I mean, and then you
can't contain.

Speaker 4 (01:06:45):
Do you feel about the release of AI on that one, though, Gary,
Do you feel like that's come along at the right time?

Speaker 1 (01:06:50):
Coincidentally it's muddy in the waters because the AI is
so good already.

Speaker 4 (01:06:54):
Exactly.

Speaker 1 (01:06:55):
You know, when you've got all these things about, you
know they do Trump and and pooting together and dancing
and all that. Some of them fantastic, whatever your politics.
The AI is is transforming things now in terms of
video and where's it going to be in five years time,

(01:07:16):
and the quality of looking on to get better and
you won't realize it's not then, you know, some of
the ones are really really good.

Speaker 4 (01:07:29):
Yeah. The frightening thing for me is we've we've already
touched on cover ups. This gives them another arm to
cover these things up.

Speaker 1 (01:07:37):
So well, even if even if President Trump said tomorrow,
here's the proof people go see yeah, exactly, you've got
to get over that by backing it up with real witnesses,
real military personnel. The person who took the film corroborated
by son, so you know, but there will always now

(01:07:59):
be that assertion of fake news and CGI.

Speaker 4 (01:08:03):
Can I ask you a question, and this is off topic,
but I'm interested to get your take on it. Have
you heard of Chris bled though?

Speaker 1 (01:08:09):
Yeah?

Speaker 4 (01:08:09):
What do you make of his tail? Because some of
the stuff that he mentions also ties into some of
the stuff that people have will like your say that
your witness Larry mentioned the light and being pushed over
and again there's similarities there. What do you make of
what he has to say?

Speaker 1 (01:08:25):
And because I'm so busy with my own stuff, because
I do an online magazine, You're for Truth Magazine. Also,
I'm the vice president of the International Coalition forresch Treasure
Reserve twenty eight countries, representatives in twenty eight countries, so
I'm a really busy person. So I appreciate that, but
I don't delve into it and it doesn't interest me

(01:08:49):
enough to spend the time doing it. So what I
can surmise is that a lot of people taking very seriously,
but it's very religious from what I can gather, are spiritual.
I'm not a spiritual person as such in that sense,
so I have not really looked into it, so I

(01:09:09):
can't really frame it and give you an answer, suffice
to say, I'm aware of who is, but from what
I can gather, people take him seriously. So who am
I to judge when I've not read his material?

Speaker 4 (01:09:19):
Well, the reason I asked is I'm the same as you.
I'm not very spiritual, and when I've looked into it
too much a lot, You're right, it does seem to
be in those realms and it's something I really want
to believe. But again, like yourself, unless I say some
kind of evidence, i'd be more complax. You know, I'd
sit on the fence at the moment I think.

Speaker 1 (01:09:37):
And I'm the saying you've got to understand that from
my perspective, I've dealt with evidence for thirty years in
the police, in the Air force, so that's the only
way i can look at the subject. So I'm not
decrying people who've had these experiences. I'm not an experiencer.
I know many international researchers who are, so they've got
something that I don't have, and I don't criticize them.

(01:09:58):
I accept that it's happening. I do believe that contact
is happening. There are abductions, or maybe not abductions. The
right word they would say experiences or contact is whatever
you want to phrase it. Experiences is probably the best word.
But that is happening. Whilst some of it will be

(01:10:18):
hoax and people make it up because they want to
belong and psychologically they have issues and they want to
belong to something. Probably eighty percent is probably very real,
and it's replicated all around the world, even in third
world countries where they don't have access to the media,
you know, even in the Amazon people, and they talk
about in common experiences even though they haven't got the

(01:10:41):
language to describe it in the way we would because
they don't have access to TV ready. So that kind
of tells you that it's really happening, that there is
contact going on. So I've no doubt that some contact
is going on, you know, but it's never happened to me.
But I'm not going to criticize people who say they
are like I say, probably eight percent jet totally.

Speaker 4 (01:11:01):
Genuine, Right, Gary, thank you so much for jumping on
for everybody out there listening that maybe didn't.

Speaker 1 (01:11:08):
Have some material to put to a link.

Speaker 4 (01:11:11):
Yeah, So I was going to say for those that
maybe didn't have the full view of the Rendellstrom case.
I hope we've gone over the original and now we
put a lot of a lot more bones.

Speaker 1 (01:11:20):
Just make the final comment because to wrap up the
conclusions of my book, Non Human, which is that going
to plug it.

Speaker 4 (01:11:28):
I was just going to plug it.

Speaker 1 (01:11:30):
But the conclusions what's important. I concluded that there was
seventeen different timed US four events. So we're not talking
just a couple of two or three little instance, seventeen
different timed US four related events over props a week
long period. That's not the story that you've been given

(01:11:54):
since nineteen eighty three.

Speaker 4 (01:11:56):
Now, So if you want the real story about what
actually happened at Reldon, tune with the you know, with
a further in depth look Gary's books. There, Gary, hold
it up for us again, just so people can see
the tight.

Speaker 1 (01:12:06):
I'll send you a cover and I'll send you a
link where people can download it and by it if
they want.

Speaker 4 (01:12:12):
To make sure we stick that in the links.

Speaker 1 (01:12:14):
Guys, I'll send you some stuff in a minute.

Speaker 4 (01:12:18):
Thanks at Gary, thanks a lot for joining us, Andy
Chase for as always overseeing, Thanks tuning in, and thanks
for watching. And we'll see you on the next episode.

Speaker 3 (01:12:26):
Take caresttttttttt.

Speaker 1 (01:13:42):
Susst prisssssst

Speaker 4 (01:14:03):
Fis