October 22, 2025 • 24 mins
Ever feel like your ADHD brain only runs on two settings? All in or completely shut down. In this episode, Jess and Jeannine dive into the gray space between perfectionism and paralysis. They unpack rest guilt, hyper-independence, and why balance feels impossible for ADHD women. Honest, funny, and validating this conversation is a reminder that rest isn’t lazy, and living in the gray is its own kind of strength.
00:00 – The ADHD All-In or Shut-Down Cycle Jessica and Jeannine open with humor and honesty about living in extremes — why ADHD brains struggle to find the middle ground.
00:25 – Welcome to Angry on the Inside The hosts reintroduce themselves and clarify that these are lived experiences, not prescriptions — just real ADHD life talk.
01:14 – Rest vs. Laziness: The Myth That Won’t Die Exploring how ADHD, guilt, and conditioning make rest feel like failure — and how internalized “lazy” narratives start young.
02:42 – Feeling Perceived: ADHD, Help, and Hyper-Independence Why asking for help feels unsafe, how judgment shapes masking, and why many ADHD women equate support with weakness.
09:31 – Burnout and the Invisible Labor Load The conversation expands to hidden ADHD exhaustion — mental load, resentment, and constant overdrive that never fully stops.
11:37 – Social Media, Comparison, and Negative Independence Jeannine’s “rage about social media” leads into how ADHD brains chase impossible standards and equate worth with output.
11:48 – The Perfectionist Cycle Jessica outlines the 5-step ADHD perfectionism loop — unrealistic expectations, avoidance, paralysis, missed deadlines, shame.
16:17 – Reframing and Self-Compassion They unpack the role of reframing, self-talk, and running “in beta” — learning to release perfection and honor the process.
21:28 – What Else Could Be True? Tools vs. Tricks How to question assumptions, celebrate progress, and shift language — moving from “or” to “and” thinking for ADHD balance.
22:41 – That’s Not Normal: Turning Rest into Competition The classic AOI segment returns with ADHD humor: rest metrics, calendar guilt, and productivity cosplay gone wrong.
23:57 – Reclaiming the Gray From black-and-white thinking to naming what’s real — awareness as control, and permission to rest without earning it.
24:33 – Outro: Still Learning to Live in the Gray Signature AOI close — messy, funny, human. “If rest feels like guilt, you’re not alone… Maybe not. And that’s okay.”
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
How many of us ADHD women live in between extremes?
All in or collapse?
It's like your brain only has those two settings.
Either you're conquering the day or lying on your bed wondering if you're broken.
turns out the gray, the middle ground, is where life actually happens.
Today we dig into that tension, why the grace scares us, why rest feels dangerous, andwhat it means to live between the extremes.
(00:25):
Welcome back to Angry on the Inside, the podcast for women with ADHD, And I'm Jess, we'retwo women diagnosed late in life with ADHD who spent decades thinking our extremes were
normal.
We're here to talk about how to find a balance because when your brain lives in extremes,the quiet middle can feel like failure or worse, like nothing.
(00:46):
before we get too deep into the gray and disclaimer that these are perspectives, notprescriptions.
We're certified ADHD life coaches, not clinicians, and this is not coaching.
Everything we share comes from experience, study, and the many conversations with othersand countless adjoining communities.
Take what fits, leave the rest, because this is not intended to be a self-improvementchecklist.
(01:11):
the great myth that we all carry around, that resting equals laziness.
Definitely for women.
We are conditioned from girlhood that sitting still is not helping.
It ties into our black and white thinking.
We are allowed to rest.
It is not tied to our worth, but it's the extremes that come into play.
(01:36):
I still have something to do.
There's always something that needs to be done.
Always something.
And this one though kind of gets my goat because I can remember hearing my dad
say about one of my stepmothers, she just never sits down.
She's always got to be doing something.
I'm not trashing my dad.
(01:57):
I know that tons of people say this, women say this about other women, not just husbandsabout their wives.
Why don't you sit down?
Why don't you relax?
These are things others say, and even like your kids will say, and you want to be like,because if you all fucking help me, then there wouldn't be anything to do.
And I could sit down.
but there's always something to do in my brain, so I can't sit down and that pisses meoff.
(02:22):
And it makes me angry and then I feel guilty.
And then I'm back in that black and white thinking where I'm saying I have to do thisbecause if I don't, then I'm worthless.
Or if I have to do this, because if I don't, I'm not a good mom, I'm not a good wife.
Yeah, it's rough.
You were saying that I was thinking about the, why don't you help me and then I could sitdown.
(02:44):
And I think, yeah, but I'll never ask for your help because I can do it all.
And I should be able to do it all.
which is kind of, know, hyperindependence of refusing help.
It feels like failure.
There's reasons behind that.
There's big reasons behind being hyper independent because most of us have asked for helpand not received it.
(03:06):
Now don't get me wrong.
There are plenty of us at times.
will, uh we will tack that onto, I'm just going to do it myself so that it's done right.
That one's a toughie because that is something that lands on us when we do that.
I've found it on many, self-reflection throughout the years, that one of the reasons Idon't ask for help is because I feel like if there's something I'm working on, I don't
(03:38):
want help because I'm fearful the other person's gonna judge the way I'm doing it.
I'd rather just do it on my own so I don't have to hear their judgment or feel like I haveto defend the way that I'm doing it.
because I'm most likely probably approaching it differently than them.
Mm-hmm.
(03:58):
I know I can get it done, they can probably get it done too.
I just want to do it my way and not have to spend time debating with them about the meritsof the way I'm choosing to do it.
It sounds like you're feeling perceived.
Yes.
Of course, that person's only going to think good or bad of me, right?
(04:18):
Because it goes right back to that black and white thinking, right?
They're going to think, that's a weird way for somebody to do something, um whichautomatically means they must think I'm a horrible person.
Because if I'm not, if they're not looking at me in complete awe 100 % of the time, thenthe only other option is they're looking at me like, my gosh, yeah, how does she survive
day to day life?
(04:40):
oh I love that.
If they're not looking at me in complete awe, that's so freaking true.
I can't even handle, and this has been like an ongoing thing.
My husband and I, we've been together for 18 years plus, and I cannot stand for him tostand and watch me in the kitchen.
oh It doesn't matter if I'm making a grilled cheese sandwich or a piece of toast, or I'mtrying to wash a spoon.
(05:06):
my goodness.
Over the years, I finally just got into the point where I turn around and I'm like, you'remaking me feel perceived.
And then he's like, oh, and he'll turn around and like walk out of the room.
I've never heard it explained that way.
You're making me feel perceived.
That's funny.
It's a good word for it.
I know it is a word that's used in the community as a whole, but I do think it's like it'sa valid, solid word.
(05:30):
Well, yeah.
It's, you're gonna see past my mask that I have on.
My mask, I'm a perfect housewife.
I do everything perfectly.
But if you're watching me, you're gonna say, wait, she doesn't do it perfectly?
There are times people have made comments in the past and those things get in there.
We will grab onto things like that, internalize them and we will hold onto them and wewill let them affect us so deeply in our trains of thought.
(06:00):
With the rest versus laziness, ADHD women internalize this twice over because we'rebattling the executive function and challenges while we're trying to prove that we're not
lazy.
So there's all this shit that we do not want to do and that our bodies naturally want togo into a full on shutdown.
(06:23):
There are all of these tasks.
We enter task paralysis where we can't do any of it because there's too much to do.
This is where we are an absolute piece of crap because we're sitting and we're not evenresting when we're sitting.
No person with ADHD is ever lazy.
Because our brains are 40 % more active when we sleep than the average person, let alonewhen we are awake.
(06:50):
We never ever get the amount of rest that the standard average person will ever receive.
We're always, always going.
Lazy is one of those words that kind of gets me because we'll all say it.
I'm just being lazy today.
And I don't like other people referring to themselves that way or people referring toother people that way.
(07:11):
Because I think very, very few people are truly lazy.
There's something out there, there's usually something going on.
Exactly.
But in black and white thinking fashion, I will say, if my daughter says, I'm just beinglazy, I'm going to take a nap.
(07:31):
I am the first person to say, you are not being lazy.
If you're taking a nap, you need to rest.
Your body needs that.
But you can bet your ass that I will say the same exact thing.
I will lay down and my husband will be like, you need to take a nap because you need torest.
And I'm like, no, I don't want to be lazy today.
I have things to do.
have to do things, I know.
And it's not a double standard because that's like, I think that's like the first thing.
(07:55):
People think it's a double standard or that we're just trying to make it about us, butit's not.
It's about how everyone else perceives us and how we perceive that they are perceiving us,right?
How we feel they are seeing us, how we feel we are showing up.
And when we have to mask and we have to be these things that we are not.
(08:16):
that ties in with trying to reach that level of perfection and why it's a yes or no answerall the time for us, but not for the people we love or for the people that we try to
protect.
I'm exhausted just thinking about it.
Me too.
I am fricking tired just from talking about that for real.
(08:39):
We'll go take a nap and come back.
Right?
We'll be back after this short nap.
It's true that rest feels guilty and it can feel impossible in a lot of ways.
You're already really resting.
We can look like we're just tearing off into space, but internally, we're running ahundred miles a minute.
(09:02):
We are literally always burning the midnight oil, which is part of the reason why so manypeople with ADHD have issues with their circadian rib and issues with sleep and getting
enough rest, quality rest.
always being tired.
people saying, I'm tired too.
No, dude, you're not tired like I'm tired.
Though I think you are because I don't understand it.
(09:25):
then I just keep pushing myself into burnout further and further.
because I shouldn't be tired.
It's so common for, families, partners and coworkers to not see it because women's unpaidlabor, their mental load and their planning and their caretaking is pretty much invisible
to everyone else.
(09:48):
What's awful is it becomes invisible to other women.
We will judge each other in ways that we shouldn't because we'll say, well, if I have todo it, then they should have to do it.
And that's not the way to look at things.
That's not the way to set the bar for others.
Well, if I had to, they have to.
We're supposed to be a progressive group of people, That is an example that just came outof my mouth that I just realized is black and white thinking towards each other.
(10:19):
that's where we can be judgy towards each other and not realize that we're being harshtowards one another because we're thinking, well, I'm the one that's had to suffer through
that.
They should be fine.
They can do that.
If I could handle it, you can handle it.
That is very true.
And then I was like, I go on my rage about social media again?
(10:39):
I just think it makes it so much worse for everybody.
Social media can hit very hard for women with ADHD who do experience all or nothingthinking because we are constantly comparing ourselves to others.
Exactly.
Yes.
all those influencers, those
(10:59):
They're putting in the work.
They've done what they've got to do.
Yes.
We assume what we're seeing is actually what you're getting.
And we aren't taking into consideration the idea that this person does have help ormultiple people.
They aren't the only person putting together all of this content.
They're not the only person even coming up with all of this content.
(11:21):
That's just not the way it works.
Moving on.
the negative independence.
Do you want to talk about that?
hyper-independence of feeling like we have to do everything on our own.
It's like another mask we wear.
I'm strong, I'm independent, I can do things on my own.
But the truth is we're just exhausted all the time because of that.
With the perfectionism cycle, it's something I am super big on because I've dealt with itso much in my life and people I love have dealt with it in their lives.
(11:50):
If you've lived it, you'll recognize this.
Step one, we create an unrealistic expectation.
I have to get this exactly right.
Step two, we procrastinate.
We are afraid we won't be able to get it right and we don't wanna be rejected and we don'twant anybody to be mad at us.
We try to avoid doing it.
(12:11):
It starts to pile up and we hit step three, task paralysis.
We will lean into that busy work, doom scrolling, cleaning, not rage cleaning, just thattask paralysis cleaning.
My absolute favorite task paralysis item, research.
God, I love research.
(12:33):
I do too.
But I can't stop.
Because I'll never have enough information.
There is no description to describe the amount of overwhelm that comes from research andthe amount of burnout that can come from research, but the amount of dopamine that comes
from research that we cling onto.
Oh, good stuff.
(12:55):
Good stuff.
We could do it.
podcast on that.
we should.
do a class called research.
I love research.
had a girlfriend a few days ago and we were talking on the phone and I had had to learnsomething so that I could help her and she was like, how'd that go?
And I said, was real good.
And she was like, I know you like to learn you some new stuff, bitch.
(13:15):
And I was like, I do love to learn me some new stuff.
So yeah, that's one of the hangups.
So let's kick into step four.
We went from step three, task paralysis.
into that missed deadline.
Now this is one that's very serious for us because many people can hit their deadlines dueto the fact that they get eight hours worth of work done in two.
(13:39):
They can put so much pressure on themselves and they can get in that zone and they canhyper focus and they can hit that deadline, but it doesn't always happen.
And in the perfectionist cycle, rather than getting it done on time,
we get into that task paralysis, we can't get anything done and we miss the deadline.
(13:59):
It's gotten harder since I've gotten older.
I swear I used to be able to do that last minute thing.
I feel like I miss the deadline more than I make it.
I do the same thing in my younger days.
And maybe it was in my younger days when I gave more of a fuck.
I don't really know, but I could always hit it.
I loved that type of stress.
Before I had an ADHD, especially in my like twenties and early thirties.
(14:23):
my goodness.
Such a dopamine fiend when it came to that.
And I never realized that's what I was doing, but I can step back and recognize it now.
thought it was cool too.
Because if you think about movies, when there's always like towards the end of the movie,you know, when it's about everything's coming together and they've figured out how they're
(14:43):
going to solve something, there's always that montage of them working into the night,working hard, getting things done, and then it ends up perfectly.
It's kind of glamorous.
It's adjacent to that idea of like we think being stressed is the more stressed you are,the more important you are.
And I think that being able to
be stressed and throw it all together and be the saver at the last moment is veryintoxicating, but damaging as well.
(15:09):
Very exhausting.
But how much do you love to hear, thank God for Janine.
She was able to pull that out of her ass.
You always come through.
You are my go-to.
And we had that, but we don't have it anymore.
And we missed those deadlines.
And we start that shame spiral.
Step five is shame, which fuels even higher expectations and the cycle restarts.
(15:35):
So just to count it down, because I know that we talked quite a bit for that perfectionistcycle.
Step one.
you have unrealistic expectations.
Step two, you procrastinate and you start to avoid it.
Step three, you end up in task paralysis.
So you're doing whatever you can to not have to do the primary task.
Step four, you miss that deadline.
(15:57):
And then step five, we experience that shame.
And the cycle starts all over again.
You see perfectionism as something that is going to protect us.
If we're perfect, everything's going to be good.
But it really, is a trap.
It is what leads us to freezing and paralysis.
When we're not perfect, the end of it is the shame that goes along with it.
(16:18):
It's just really a big mindfuck to be going around thinking that way.
Yes, the cycle convinces us that we're lazy when really we're exhausted from chasingimpossible standards.
that we put on our own self.
We just assume if someone else has anything to say, well then obviously we're a completefailure.
There's no in-between.
(16:39):
You either did a perfect job or you failed horribly.
That word is powerful.
We assume.
But we will tell ourselves that we know.
I'm not assuming, I know.
And that's one of those spaces when you hear it, when you say it, that you can flag foryourself.
(17:00):
That is a step back moment.
That is a yellow flag in front of your feet, whether you see it or not.
I know I'm right.
I know this is what they expect.
I know.
Do you?
Have you asked?
They'll tell me what they think and it's not going to be good.
We don't know that's what it is because we haven't asked.
(17:21):
That's a really good solid yellow flag to say, hey, am I thinking in black and white?
Am I making assumptions?
we from this cycle, how do we shift and move towards more balanced approach?
It really is about learning to reframe it.
Just that shifting a perspective, it really changes the meaning of the experience.
(17:43):
And we're not talking about forced positivity, but just looking at new options.
Is there a different way to think about something?
Is there a different approach to it?
And that first idea that comes to mind is the self-compassion.
We really do need to learn to put ourselves first.
saying about, would you talk to your best friend the way you talk to yourself?
(18:06):
And I think most people would say no.
That in and of itself is a reframe.
It's a change of perspective that you're not taking into account, especially with ADHD.
We will have so many lines of thought going at once and we will overthink things so muchthat we forget some of the more basic ideas because we are so complex.
(18:35):
That's it.
If we want to talk examples of reframes, We can say, I failed, or we can say, I found away that doesn't work for me.
We can say, I'm lazy, or we can say, my brain needs a different entry point.
For me, I know that a lot of times if I'm putting out something that I know is not goingto be perfect, that I have to put something out so that I can get feedback from others to
(19:02):
know how to fix it.
I will simply tell myself I am running in beta.
That's good.
To run in beta mode means that you need to be willing to put something out there so it canbe adjusted, picked apart.
For me, it is painful.
I hate the feedback.
But if I can openly put something out there knowing it's intentionally not perfect, thatis my reframe.
(19:28):
Even then I will catch myself up, but that is a reframe that I do for myself.
I just had little light bulb go off when you said that because I hate feedback.
You can tell me 10 good things and I'm just going to dwell on the one thing that you saidcould be different.
Not even that it's bad, but just, hey, here's a different approach.
Approaching it as I am in beta.
(19:50):
I know this isn't perfect.
And so I'll almost be disappointed if somebody doesn't tell me something that can be donedifferently or I could take a different approach because that's where I am right now.
I like that.
That is such, yes.
Literally, my brain's making connections right now, because I've never thought of it thatway.
(20:11):
Wow, m you're pretty smart.
Seriously, I'm like, my God, because you know I hate feedback.
I hate putting things out there until they're like perfect.
We talk about tricks and tools, things that we can use.
Tools tend to be things that we can sort of put in our repertoire that allow us toactually change the trajectory of something we do in our lives, like on the regular.
(20:37):
Whereas a tip or trick is something that is typically fueled by novelty or dopamine thatyou will eventually get sick of.
and stop doing, but we try to be careful in saying which one is tool or trick because oneman's trick is another man's tool.
(20:58):
See, there you are, Ken.
I can reflect on that for a moment.
everybody listening, do you consider these to be tools or tricks?
What else could be true here?
If we're standing in a situation and we're making assumptions, but we do understand thatwe are having to make decisions and we're feeling overwhelmed for whatever reason, can we
(21:18):
stop and say, what else could be true here?
And that can make a whole world of difference.
It seems so simple, but it really can just change everything for you.
If you just think of what are some other things?
I think it's from improv where it's the yes and.
You can hold two opposing thoughts in your head at the same time.
(21:41):
I didn't finish my whole to-do list, but I made progress.
So celebrate the progress you made instead of beating yourself up on the fact that youdidn't finish your day.
do list that day, which if you have ADHD, you probably had 50 things on it, includingfinish that thesis you never did for your doctorate.
sticking with the ands instead of the ors.
(22:04):
We talk about it, vocabulary makes a difference.
I didn't finish my to-do list and I made progress.
Reframing can lift a lot of the weight from your own shoulders.
All right, it's time for our favorite recurring segment.
That's not.
(22:24):
This Week's Not Normal turning balance into a competition.
you mean when you try to schedule rest, but then suddenly it's color-coded with progressmetric?
Yes, that is exactly what I mean.
Rest becomes a task.
Downtime turns into a performance.
If your friend says you can't rest until you've done enough to deserve it,congratulations.
(22:45):
You're not lazy, you're conditioned.
And you're probably exhausted because yeah, that's not normal.
to schedule a rest like it's a meeting.
That is not normal.
like I need another thing to forget from my calendar.
Resting with its to list open in another tab?
Yeah, not normal.
(23:06):
And guilt right next to the pillow?
Definitely not normal.
I don't need to stare into the face of guilt.
I see it when my eyes are closed.
downtime that must be earned?
Not normal.
Don't take my PTO.
Why would I have to earn my damn downtime?
Productivity as self-esteem cosplay.
Definitely not normal.
(23:27):
Resting, but with anxiety as the background noise.
Not normal.
So how do we reclaim the gray?
I think awareness first is just being able to name it when you see it.
Naming out black and white thinking.
I think by naming it, starts to...
its grip.
Giving anything a name allows that you take back the control.
That doesn't happen on a weekend.
It takes practice.
(23:48):
Sometimes the gray feels heavier than the chaos.
but it's also where you find peace without a penalty.
We'll add that to the list.
Still figuring out our outro.
Am I saying that right?
Outro?
Yeah, outro.
It doesn't sound like right.
Still figuring out our outro.
If rest feels like guilt, you're not alone.
(24:10):
We're still learning to live in the gray.
Maybe next week we'll actually stay there.
Maybe.
And that's okay.
Thanks for listening and remember, you're not alone.
Ta-da!
How many of us ADHD women live in between extremes?
All in or collapse?
It's like your brain only has those two settings.
Either you're conquering the day or lying on your bed wondering if you're broken.
turns out the gray, the middle ground, is where life actually happens.
Today we dig into that tension, why the grace scares us, why rest feels dangerous, andwhat it means to live between the extremes.
(00:25):
Welcome back to Angry on the Inside, the podcast for women with ADHD, And I'm Jess, we'retwo women diagnosed late in life with ADHD who spent decades thinking our extremes were
normal.
We're here to talk about how to find a balance because when your brain lives in extremes,the quiet middle can feel like failure or worse, like nothing.
(00:46):
before we get too deep into the gray and disclaimer that these are perspectives, notprescriptions.
We're certified ADHD life coaches, not clinicians, and this is not coaching.
Everything we share comes from experience, study, and the many conversations with othersand countless adjoining communities.
Take what fits, leave the rest, because this is not intended to be a self-improvementchecklist.
(01:11):
the great myth that we all carry around, that resting equals laziness.
Definitely for women.
We are conditioned from girlhood that sitting still is not helping.
It ties into our black and white thinking.
We are allowed to rest.
It is not tied to our worth, but it's the extremes that come into play.
(01:36):
I still have something to do.
There's always something that needs to be done.
Always something.
And this one though kind of gets my goat because I can remember hearing my dad
say about one of my stepmothers, she just never sits down.
She's always got to be doing something.
I'm not trashing my dad.
(01:57):
I know that tons of people say this, women say this about other women, not just husbandsabout their wives.
Why don't you sit down?
Why don't you relax?
These are things others say, and even like your kids will say, and you want to be like,because if you all fucking help me, then there wouldn't be anything to do.
And I could sit down.
but there's always something to do in my brain, so I can't sit down and that pisses meoff.
(02:22):
And it makes me angry and then I feel guilty.
And then I'm back in that black and white thinking where I'm saying I have to do thisbecause if I don't, then I'm worthless.
Or if I have to do this, because if I don't, I'm not a good mom, I'm not a good wife.
Yeah, it's rough.
You were saying that I was thinking about the, why don't you help me and then I could sitdown.
(02:44):
And I think, yeah, but I'll never ask for your help because I can do it all.
And I should be able to do it all.
which is kind of, know, hyperindependence of refusing help.
It feels like failure.
There's reasons behind that.
There's big reasons behind being hyper independent because most of us have asked for helpand not received it.
(03:06):
Now don't get me wrong.
There are plenty of us at times.
will, uh we will tack that onto, I'm just going to do it myself so that it's done right.
That one's a toughie because that is something that lands on us when we do that.
I've found it on many, self-reflection throughout the years, that one of the reasons Idon't ask for help is because I feel like if there's something I'm working on, I don't
(03:38):
want help because I'm fearful the other person's gonna judge the way I'm doing it.
I'd rather just do it on my own so I don't have to hear their judgment or feel like I haveto defend the way that I'm doing it.
because I'm most likely probably approaching it differently than them.
Mm-hmm.
(03:58):
I know I can get it done, they can probably get it done too.
I just want to do it my way and not have to spend time debating with them about the meritsof the way I'm choosing to do it.
It sounds like you're feeling perceived.
Yes.
Of course, that person's only going to think good or bad of me, right?
(04:18):
Because it goes right back to that black and white thinking, right?
They're going to think, that's a weird way for somebody to do something, um whichautomatically means they must think I'm a horrible person.
Because if I'm not, if they're not looking at me in complete awe 100 % of the time, thenthe only other option is they're looking at me like, my gosh, yeah, how does she survive
day to day life?
(04:40):
oh I love that.
If they're not looking at me in complete awe, that's so freaking true.
I can't even handle, and this has been like an ongoing thing.
My husband and I, we've been together for 18 years plus, and I cannot stand for him tostand and watch me in the kitchen.
oh It doesn't matter if I'm making a grilled cheese sandwich or a piece of toast, or I'mtrying to wash a spoon.
(05:06):
my goodness.
Over the years, I finally just got into the point where I turn around and I'm like, you'remaking me feel perceived.
And then he's like, oh, and he'll turn around and like walk out of the room.
I've never heard it explained that way.
You're making me feel perceived.
That's funny.
It's a good word for it.
I know it is a word that's used in the community as a whole, but I do think it's like it'sa valid, solid word.
(05:30):
Well, yeah.
It's, you're gonna see past my mask that I have on.
My mask, I'm a perfect housewife.
I do everything perfectly.
But if you're watching me, you're gonna say, wait, she doesn't do it perfectly?
There are times people have made comments in the past and those things get in there.
We will grab onto things like that, internalize them and we will hold onto them and wewill let them affect us so deeply in our trains of thought.
(06:00):
With the rest versus laziness, ADHD women internalize this twice over because we'rebattling the executive function and challenges while we're trying to prove that we're not
lazy.
So there's all this shit that we do not want to do and that our bodies naturally want togo into a full on shutdown.
(06:23):
There are all of these tasks.
We enter task paralysis where we can't do any of it because there's too much to do.
This is where we are an absolute piece of crap because we're sitting and we're not evenresting when we're sitting.
No person with ADHD is ever lazy.
Because our brains are 40 % more active when we sleep than the average person, let alonewhen we are awake.
(06:50):
We never ever get the amount of rest that the standard average person will ever receive.
We're always, always going.
Lazy is one of those words that kind of gets me because we'll all say it.
I'm just being lazy today.
And I don't like other people referring to themselves that way or people referring toother people that way.
(07:11):
Because I think very, very few people are truly lazy.
There's something out there, there's usually something going on.
Exactly.
But in black and white thinking fashion, I will say, if my daughter says, I'm just beinglazy, I'm going to take a nap.
(07:31):
I am the first person to say, you are not being lazy.
If you're taking a nap, you need to rest.
Your body needs that.
But you can bet your ass that I will say the same exact thing.
I will lay down and my husband will be like, you need to take a nap because you need torest.
And I'm like, no, I don't want to be lazy today.
I have things to do.
have to do things, I know.
And it's not a double standard because that's like, I think that's like the first thing.
(07:55):
People think it's a double standard or that we're just trying to make it about us, butit's not.
It's about how everyone else perceives us and how we perceive that they are perceiving us,right?
How we feel they are seeing us, how we feel we are showing up.
And when we have to mask and we have to be these things that we are not.
(08:16):
that ties in with trying to reach that level of perfection and why it's a yes or no answerall the time for us, but not for the people we love or for the people that we try to
protect.
I'm exhausted just thinking about it.
Me too.
I am fricking tired just from talking about that for real.
(08:39):
We'll go take a nap and come back.
Right?
We'll be back after this short nap.
It's true that rest feels guilty and it can feel impossible in a lot of ways.
You're already really resting.
We can look like we're just tearing off into space, but internally, we're running ahundred miles a minute.
(09:02):
We are literally always burning the midnight oil, which is part of the reason why so manypeople with ADHD have issues with their circadian rib and issues with sleep and getting
enough rest, quality rest.
always being tired.
people saying, I'm tired too.
No, dude, you're not tired like I'm tired.
Though I think you are because I don't understand it.
(09:25):
then I just keep pushing myself into burnout further and further.
because I shouldn't be tired.
It's so common for, families, partners and coworkers to not see it because women's unpaidlabor, their mental load and their planning and their caretaking is pretty much invisible
to everyone else.
(09:48):
What's awful is it becomes invisible to other women.
We will judge each other in ways that we shouldn't because we'll say, well, if I have todo it, then they should have to do it.
And that's not the way to look at things.
That's not the way to set the bar for others.
Well, if I had to, they have to.
We're supposed to be a progressive group of people, That is an example that just came outof my mouth that I just realized is black and white thinking towards each other.
(10:19):
that's where we can be judgy towards each other and not realize that we're being harshtowards one another because we're thinking, well, I'm the one that's had to suffer through
that.
They should be fine.
They can do that.
If I could handle it, you can handle it.
That is very true.
And then I was like, I go on my rage about social media again?
(10:39):
I just think it makes it so much worse for everybody.
Social media can hit very hard for women with ADHD who do experience all or nothingthinking because we are constantly comparing ourselves to others.
Exactly.
Yes.
all those influencers, those
(10:59):
They're putting in the work.
They've done what they've got to do.
Yes.
We assume what we're seeing is actually what you're getting.
And we aren't taking into consideration the idea that this person does have help ormultiple people.
They aren't the only person putting together all of this content.
They're not the only person even coming up with all of this content.
(11:21):
That's just not the way it works.
Moving on.
the negative independence.
Do you want to talk about that?
hyper-independence of feeling like we have to do everything on our own.
It's like another mask we wear.
I'm strong, I'm independent, I can do things on my own.
But the truth is we're just exhausted all the time because of that.
With the perfectionism cycle, it's something I am super big on because I've dealt with itso much in my life and people I love have dealt with it in their lives.
(11:50):
If you've lived it, you'll recognize this.
Step one, we create an unrealistic expectation.
I have to get this exactly right.
Step two, we procrastinate.
We are afraid we won't be able to get it right and we don't wanna be rejected and we don'twant anybody to be mad at us.
We try to avoid doing it.
(12:11):
It starts to pile up and we hit step three, task paralysis.
We will lean into that busy work, doom scrolling, cleaning, not rage cleaning, just thattask paralysis cleaning.
My absolute favorite task paralysis item, research.
God, I love research.
(12:33):
I do too.
But I can't stop.
Because I'll never have enough information.
There is no description to describe the amount of overwhelm that comes from research andthe amount of burnout that can come from research, but the amount of dopamine that comes
from research that we cling onto.
Oh, good stuff.
(12:55):
Good stuff.
We could do it.
podcast on that.
we should.
do a class called research.
I love research.
had a girlfriend a few days ago and we were talking on the phone and I had had to learnsomething so that I could help her and she was like, how'd that go?
And I said, was real good.
And she was like, I know you like to learn you some new stuff, bitch.
(13:15):
And I was like, I do love to learn me some new stuff.
So yeah, that's one of the hangups.
So let's kick into step four.
We went from step three, task paralysis.
into that missed deadline.
Now this is one that's very serious for us because many people can hit their deadlines dueto the fact that they get eight hours worth of work done in two.
(13:39):
They can put so much pressure on themselves and they can get in that zone and they canhyper focus and they can hit that deadline, but it doesn't always happen.
And in the perfectionist cycle, rather than getting it done on time,
we get into that task paralysis, we can't get anything done and we miss the deadline.
(13:59):
It's gotten harder since I've gotten older.
I swear I used to be able to do that last minute thing.
I feel like I miss the deadline more than I make it.
I do the same thing in my younger days.
And maybe it was in my younger days when I gave more of a fuck.
I don't really know, but I could always hit it.
I loved that type of stress.
Before I had an ADHD, especially in my like twenties and early thirties.
(14:23):
my goodness.
Such a dopamine fiend when it came to that.
And I never realized that's what I was doing, but I can step back and recognize it now.
thought it was cool too.
Because if you think about movies, when there's always like towards the end of the movie,you know, when it's about everything's coming together and they've figured out how they're
(14:43):
going to solve something, there's always that montage of them working into the night,working hard, getting things done, and then it ends up perfectly.
It's kind of glamorous.
It's adjacent to that idea of like we think being stressed is the more stressed you are,the more important you are.
And I think that being able to
be stressed and throw it all together and be the saver at the last moment is veryintoxicating, but damaging as well.
(15:09):
Very exhausting.
But how much do you love to hear, thank God for Janine.
She was able to pull that out of her ass.
You always come through.
You are my go-to.
And we had that, but we don't have it anymore.
And we missed those deadlines.
And we start that shame spiral.
Step five is shame, which fuels even higher expectations and the cycle restarts.
(15:35):
So just to count it down, because I know that we talked quite a bit for that perfectionistcycle.
Step one.
you have unrealistic expectations.
Step two, you procrastinate and you start to avoid it.
Step three, you end up in task paralysis.
So you're doing whatever you can to not have to do the primary task.
Step four, you miss that deadline.
(15:57):
And then step five, we experience that shame.
And the cycle starts all over again.
You see perfectionism as something that is going to protect us.
If we're perfect, everything's going to be good.
But it really, is a trap.
It is what leads us to freezing and paralysis.
When we're not perfect, the end of it is the shame that goes along with it.
(16:18):
It's just really a big mindfuck to be going around thinking that way.
Yes, the cycle convinces us that we're lazy when really we're exhausted from chasingimpossible standards.
that we put on our own self.
We just assume if someone else has anything to say, well then obviously we're a completefailure.
There's no in-between.
(16:39):
You either did a perfect job or you failed horribly.
That word is powerful.
We assume.
But we will tell ourselves that we know.
I'm not assuming, I know.
And that's one of those spaces when you hear it, when you say it, that you can flag foryourself.
(17:00):
That is a step back moment.
That is a yellow flag in front of your feet, whether you see it or not.
I know I'm right.
I know this is what they expect.
I know.
Do you?
Have you asked?
They'll tell me what they think and it's not going to be good.
We don't know that's what it is because we haven't asked.
(17:21):
That's a really good solid yellow flag to say, hey, am I thinking in black and white?
Am I making assumptions?
we from this cycle, how do we shift and move towards more balanced approach?
It really is about learning to reframe it.
Just that shifting a perspective, it really changes the meaning of the experience.
(17:43):
And we're not talking about forced positivity, but just looking at new options.
Is there a different way to think about something?
Is there a different approach to it?
And that first idea that comes to mind is the self-compassion.
We really do need to learn to put ourselves first.
saying about, would you talk to your best friend the way you talk to yourself?
(18:06):
And I think most people would say no.
That in and of itself is a reframe.
It's a change of perspective that you're not taking into account, especially with ADHD.
We will have so many lines of thought going at once and we will overthink things so muchthat we forget some of the more basic ideas because we are so complex.
(18:35):
That's it.
If we want to talk examples of reframes, We can say, I failed, or we can say, I found away that doesn't work for me.
We can say, I'm lazy, or we can say, my brain needs a different entry point.
For me, I know that a lot of times if I'm putting out something that I know is not goingto be perfect, that I have to put something out so that I can get feedback from others to
(19:02):
know how to fix it.
I will simply tell myself I am running in beta.
That's good.
To run in beta mode means that you need to be willing to put something out there so it canbe adjusted, picked apart.
For me, it is painful.
I hate the feedback.
But if I can openly put something out there knowing it's intentionally not perfect, thatis my reframe.
(19:28):
Even then I will catch myself up, but that is a reframe that I do for myself.
I just had little light bulb go off when you said that because I hate feedback.
You can tell me 10 good things and I'm just going to dwell on the one thing that you saidcould be different.
Not even that it's bad, but just, hey, here's a different approach.
Approaching it as I am in beta.
(19:50):
I know this isn't perfect.
And so I'll almost be disappointed if somebody doesn't tell me something that can be donedifferently or I could take a different approach because that's where I am right now.
I like that.
That is such, yes.
Literally, my brain's making connections right now, because I've never thought of it thatway.
(20:11):
Wow, m you're pretty smart.
Seriously, I'm like, my God, because you know I hate feedback.
I hate putting things out there until they're like perfect.
We talk about tricks and tools, things that we can use.
Tools tend to be things that we can sort of put in our repertoire that allow us toactually change the trajectory of something we do in our lives, like on the regular.
(20:37):
Whereas a tip or trick is something that is typically fueled by novelty or dopamine thatyou will eventually get sick of.
and stop doing, but we try to be careful in saying which one is tool or trick because oneman's trick is another man's tool.
(20:58):
See, there you are, Ken.
I can reflect on that for a moment.
everybody listening, do you consider these to be tools or tricks?
What else could be true here?
If we're standing in a situation and we're making assumptions, but we do understand thatwe are having to make decisions and we're feeling overwhelmed for whatever reason, can we
(21:18):
stop and say, what else could be true here?
And that can make a whole world of difference.
It seems so simple, but it really can just change everything for you.
If you just think of what are some other things?
I think it's from improv where it's the yes and.
You can hold two opposing thoughts in your head at the same time.
(21:41):
I didn't finish my whole to-do list, but I made progress.
So celebrate the progress you made instead of beating yourself up on the fact that youdidn't finish your day.
do list that day, which if you have ADHD, you probably had 50 things on it, includingfinish that thesis you never did for your doctorate.
sticking with the ands instead of the ors.
(22:04):
We talk about it, vocabulary makes a difference.
I didn't finish my to-do list and I made progress.
Reframing can lift a lot of the weight from your own shoulders.
All right, it's time for our favorite recurring segment.
That's not.
(22:24):
This Week's Not Normal turning balance into a competition.
you mean when you try to schedule rest, but then suddenly it's color-coded with progressmetric?
Yes, that is exactly what I mean.
Rest becomes a task.
Downtime turns into a performance.
If your friend says you can't rest until you've done enough to deserve it,congratulations.
(22:45):
You're not lazy, you're conditioned.
And you're probably exhausted because yeah, that's not normal.
to schedule a rest like it's a meeting.
That is not normal.
like I need another thing to forget from my calendar.
Resting with its to list open in another tab?
Yeah, not normal.
(23:06):
And guilt right next to the pillow?
Definitely not normal.
I don't need to stare into the face of guilt.
I see it when my eyes are closed.
downtime that must be earned?
Not normal.
Don't take my PTO.
Why would I have to earn my damn downtime?
Productivity as self-esteem cosplay.
Definitely not normal.
(23:27):
Resting, but with anxiety as the background noise.
Not normal.
So how do we reclaim the gray?
I think awareness first is just being able to name it when you see it.
Naming out black and white thinking.
I think by naming it, starts to...
its grip.
Giving anything a name allows that you take back the control.
That doesn't happen on a weekend.
It takes practice.
(23:48):
Sometimes the gray feels heavier than the chaos.
but it's also where you find peace without a penalty.
We'll add that to the list.
Still figuring out our outro.
Am I saying that right?
Outro?
Yeah, outro.
It doesn't sound like right.
Still figuring out our outro.
If rest feels like guilt, you're not alone.
(24:10):
We're still learning to live in the gray.
Maybe next week we'll actually stay there.
Maybe.
And that's okay.
Thanks for listening and remember, you're not alone.
Ta-da!
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