#1 - Bryan Lee - Foiling, kiting, climbing, tutoring and giving back to the community

Bryan talks about how foiling came about in his life and how he views the sport. We discuss his contributions to the community, including his foil reviews on https://www.wouzel.com/.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
I originally got into water sports really young.

(00:06):
I grew up as a wakeboarder and playing in the lakes in Minnesota.
And then kind of left water sports for a long time.
I was a full-time professional climber, both on rock and as well as on structures.
So I would climb buildings and bridges and towers and dams.

(00:27):
And all my skills kind of headed that direction for a very long time.
But as I aged, I started to accumulate a lot of injuries from the climbing.
It was just very hard on my body.
But I living in the Portland and the Gorge area, I kept kind of seeing these people outplaying

(00:52):
in the Gorge and it always seemed really cool to me.
So one day I was actually working on a cell tower out at the Oregon coast.
And I went down to the local surf shop and I bought a trainer kite.
And that kind of just set the tone.
I flew that trainer kite for three years.

(01:13):
I became probably the most overtrained trainer kite user there ever was.
And I mean, I was flying all over the country with that thing because I would go and I would
go and I would go and I would go and I would go and I would be body dragging with just a

(01:35):
two-line trainer kite.
And finally, the day came where I was just like, you know what, I got to stop.
I actually wanted to stop traveling for work because it had been three years of using a trainer
kite and never being able to really learn how to kite board because I was always on the
road for work.

(01:57):
So I changed what kind of work I did in the nature of my work and I stopped traveling as a
climber and I started to learn to kite and I got really into it.
I really loved it.
And a big motivation for me as a kiter, I wanted to surf in waves.

(02:19):
And I've always admired surfers my entire life and I've never had the opportunity to live
right by the ocean.
So kite boarding, specifically strapless surf kite boarding was the direction I wanted
to go.
For a few years, it was everything to me.
I was on the water over a hundred days a year, every single year, pushing myself in the

(02:45):
waves, doing, you know, my strapless freestyle, which, you know, it's fun to be able to jump
with a surfboard and do flip tricks like a skate border and all that kind of stuff.
And I loved it.
I absolutely loved it.
And then winging came along.
And I definitely was in the group of people that kind of like joked around about winging

(03:11):
at first and was like, oh man, this looks so goofy.
You know, oh, wouldn't that do you imagine if they found a way to, you know, attach the
sail to the board, just like windsurfing, you know?
So I looked at it and I thought it was pretty goofy at the start.
And then a buddy just loaned me.

(03:32):
He was like, hey, you know what?
Here's a complete kid.
Here's a board, a foil, and a wing.
How much did you just take it out and just try it and just see what happens?
So I, he loaned me an eight foot long, 30 inch wide, Tacuma.

(03:53):
I think it was one of those, you know, five and one.
You can turn it into a surfboard or you can windsurf on.
It was just like this insanely huge board with, I think the mast was maybe 24 inches long,
liquid force, and then a pelican foil.
But I went out and boom, first day straight up on the foil and I'm like, oh, this, this is

(04:17):
pretty cool.
This is really fun.
So I did two or three days in the gorge winging with that, kind of sorting things out with the
wing.
And then I drove out to the coast and I was thought to myself, well, you know, I already
know how to sub-serif.
I wonder if I can sub foil, even though I don't know how to foil yet.

(04:41):
And sure enough, with a with a gigantic board like that and a short mast, I was able to
go out when there was no waves.
And I just paddle straight up on the foil.
I had no idea what I was doing.
I could just purely go straight in a line.
And it was definitely a total hazard to myself because I didn't fully understand how

(05:02):
all the different pieces of that puzzle worked.
But yeah, that combination there, having the experience in the river and then going out
and having the immediate success in the ocean really opened my mind to what was going to
be possible with foiling.
And then most specifically, I noticed very quickly that my, so I really enjoy the feeling

(05:32):
of a surfy kind of turn and a surfing experience.
And with, with Kiting in the, in the waves, I was able to disengage the kite and truly
surf the wave.
But in the river, you know, in the Gorge where I lived, while we have great swell from time

(05:53):
to time, the idea that you're going to have a true surfing experience on, you know, a
five foot surfboard with a kite is kind of inaccurate.
I don't think you can really get the kind of turns that you imagine you might be able to
get.
You can have a lot of fun.
It's great.
I love it.
But I wasn't able to get that kind of surfy, carvy experience.

(06:16):
And I noticed that really quickly with foiling that I didn't need breaking waves.
I didn't need steep, stowed up faces in order to have fun.
So it just sucked me in.
And for that first year, I split my time about 50/50 between Kiting and, and wing foiling

(06:41):
until I ended up fully converting about a year later.
Mm-hmm.
Now you're one of those guys.
And you know, it's super funny because I still have friends that kite and they will not,

(07:03):
they will not try winging.
They're so stuck on the idea that it looks goofy.
And it's really just an image thing.
It's not, there's like no curiosity to just try something new.
And I think that's a shame if you're not curious about new experiences.

(07:27):
You never know what could be around the next corner and what opportunity you might have
in life where if you just try, like what's the worst that could possibly happen?
You know, it's, you just try it and maybe you like it or maybe you're like, ah, you know
what?
The kite is really my thing.
And I want to keep Kiting like, oh, cool.
That's great.
There's plenty of water.

(07:48):
Kiting is still awesome.
I still think about Kiting a good amount and I still see days and certain circumstances
where I'm like, oh, actually today is a day where it's better to be a Kiter than it is
to be a winger.
Yeah.
Yeah, I feel like it's been a progression, right?

(08:09):
Because like with the winds off, at first you would need like a lot of winds and quality
waves.
And then, but arguably it's, I haven't done it in the way, but supposedly it's amazing.
But then Kiting came around and then it was like, oh, you don't need that much wind.
And you don't need that much waves.

(08:31):
And then winging came around and it was again, you need even less waves, not even breaking
waves and even less wind.
Now it's, I mean, it's absurd.
They are not a wind you need.
Yeah.
The conditions are really on like when it's really like a proper breaking wave with proper
winds.
Then of course those previous generation tools are better, arguably.

(08:57):
You see people ripping on winds up or Kite's surfing.
I mean, it's just insane.
They're bashing the lip and yeah.
And with winging it's how to bash the lip.
And people kind of do it with it's like the top one, one percent or even, I mean, it's
cash, but it's a lot on the few.

(09:18):
So yeah.
Cash is the one that always comes to mind when I think of somebody who's actually performing
in the waves in the way that is inspiring to me.
But I just, it's awesome to see him do that.
And I also don't foresee myself ever persevering to that style, right?

(09:42):
Because it's just, I'm scared.
I'm so scared.
When I look at the waves that he's on with a foil, I'm terrified.
I'm just thinking to myself, oh my gosh.
If you go down and you get caught inside and you're just getting mangled with all this
gear flipping everywhere and multiple leashes, you know, tangling on things.

(10:05):
This is really impressive what he and, you know, a handful of other people are able to do.
But I'll take my kite board out in those conditions or I'll go subsurfing in those conditions.
There's so many other ways to have fun.
And I still really love the feeling of actually being on the wave.

(10:30):
I just had a session the other day, you know, out subsurfing.
And it was, you know, super small, you know, probably would have been a good day for foiling.
But I wanted to subsurf.
I haven't been out to do that in a long time.
And it's phenomenal.
You know, just being like directly connected to the water source, it's really, really enjoyable.

(10:53):
And I think the more toys you're proficient with, the more fun you're able to have.
And you can really mix it up and keep things spicy and fun on different days with different
conditions.
So I think you're totally right.
You know, different generations of gear are still super valid in different scenarios.
Yeah, I don't know if you've seen the meme where there's a, like a person getting tortured

(11:16):
on a wheel and like getting, you know, that wheel where they extended someone's body as
a torture and they just put like the winging liishes on each side of the person.
It feels a bit like that when you get tumbled and feel the liish is pushing you, like pulling
you apart.
Yeah.

(11:37):
I, I could totally see that like getting jerked in every direction.
Though I haven't had too many like really just comically bad experiences swinging me.
But I did have one and it was in the ocean with where I moved all my liishes onto my waist

(12:03):
belt.
So I don't have anything connected to my, to my ankle or to my wrist anymore.
And I was out in one of my rare ocean sessions and I don't know exactly what broke first.
But I just got out through the brick break and I was just sitting there kind of collecting

(12:26):
myself.
And you know, clean up wave came out the back.
So I got tossed in one final time.
And then everything was gone.
My waist belt had somehow come off.
And then the wings stayed attached to the waist belt and started tumbling while pulling the board.
So it was just like everything was leaving all at once.

(12:49):
And I just, I don't know.
So this is ridiculous.
What's happening here.
Fortunately, a guy, everything back.
It wasn't it wasn't the end of the world.
But it was one of those, okay.
Yeah.
This is, this feels super goofy right now.
I mean, it's not too bad because like the board is acting as an anchor, like drifting anchor.
And so it's somehow in the madness.

(13:12):
It's pretty, it's pretty good system.
And it's true.
It's true.
The wind was on show or side on.
Side on.
Yeah.
So I pushed everything in.
Yeah.
Not too bad.
Yeah.
Not too bad.
Not too bad at all.
And our beaches to a majority of the spots we go, it's just endless sandy beach.

(13:37):
So you can kind of wash up anywhere that you might want.
Yeah.
That's pretty good.
Yeah.
And so how did you, I mean nowadays the foils are arguably really, really good.
But like when did you, when did you say you started foiling and what was your different

(13:58):
gears you went through like different brands or foils if you remember them?
Yeah.
So again, the very, very first foil that I wrote on was a company called Pelican.
Have you ever heard of them?
No, I'm not sure.

(14:18):
No.
No, no.
You don't, you won't see them today anymore.
But you know who Cloud9 is.
So Cloud9 actually used to be known as Pelican and they had to go through a name change.
But way back when I first started that first kit that was loaned to me, it was a Pelican

(14:42):
foil.
And I don't think I knew it at the time, but it was incredibly user friendly.
Just the, I consider myself to be a really quick learner.
I'm able to pick things up pretty fast.

(15:02):
But the fact that I was self taught the first day I was learning a foil.
I was just like straight up on foil, unable to jive and do these different things.
I really am grateful that I had the opportunity to learn on something that was super user friendly.
Because later on I got to try so I've tried many, many, many foil brands now.

(15:29):
There are some foils out there that are very difficult to ride and I'm really lucky that
I started with Pelican.
After I gave that one back, I picked up the Cougira Helium 1500 and rode that for a good
period of time.

(15:52):
As I was progressing and getting better with that foil, I got to kind of that place where
everyone gets to where it's hey, should I buy a smaller foil or should I get a smaller
board.
And I went the smaller board route first.

(16:12):
So I was on the Cougira 1500 and I was trying to size down my board.
And I really struggled with going to the shorter wider boards.
I just didn't feel like it was ever clicking for me.
So I ended up going back up and board size and then I started sizing my foils down.

(16:32):
So I had the Cougira 1210 for a while after that.
But then I kind of plateaued on the Cougira foils and I was starting to...
Because I was on the verge of giving up on wing foiling.
I just wasn't progressing at all and I couldn't seem to find any way to unlock more progression

(17:00):
for myself.
So I was thinking, all right, well I'm going to go back to Kiting and then I'm going to
do downwind stuff up foil.
So those would be my two things and I'm just going to let the wingy go.
But my second day downwind stuff foiling, I fell and hit the board on my way down.

(17:24):
I accidentally, it was maybe 45 knots of wind.
So I was just pumping and I paddled up on the foil while I still had one knee down on the
board.
So I popped up on the foil but I was kneeling and I was like, okay, this is not where I want
to be.
So I tried to stand up from a kneeling position and it just resulted in a super fast taco

(17:49):
board got me in the ribs and broke my ribs.
So then I couldn't kite.
So I go, okay, well I can't kite.
So I guess I better keep winging.
But I needed to figure out the foil situation.
So at that point I looked for the pelican foils and I was like, you know, I learned all the

(18:09):
basics just so fast on the pelican foils.
But then I was really stagnant on the Tacuma stuff.
Where can I find more pelican foils?
So that's how I found out that they became Cloud9.
I emailed Chris at Cloud9 and he said, hey, is there anywhere that I can try your new foils?

(18:31):
They had the new, the forward swept shape that's really unique.
They kind of look like the hammer head shark.
And I had never seen them around and I said, hey, you know where can I demo these at and
Chris set me up with a demo and it was instantaneous love.

(18:53):
I had never experienced the immediate rapid progression like I did when I switched over to
that foil.
And I think that's because I'm looking for a surfy experience and I don't know that the
other foils that I'd been demoing were moving in the way that intuitively I wanted to move.

(19:16):
Whereas when I got those foils, they had more front foot pressure and they just naturally
wanted to surf.
And at that time, I was testing, I tested access, I tested, when you foil, I tested, Nash,
I tested, slink shot.

(19:37):
I think I tested some Armstrong stuff back then.
So I was going through, left, I tested and I mean, some really good foils, but none of them
felt right to me.
But when I tried that Cloud 9 FS series, it was immediate like I got on the water and it
had the biggest smile on my face and it was off to the races after that.

(20:00):
So I bought, I became an ambassador for Cloud 9 and I bought their entire line from the 550
all the way up to the 1780.
And within one year of riding the Cloud 9 foils, I went from being kind of stuck on the Cougier

(20:21):
1210 and 1500 to at the end of the year on Cloud 9, it was actively riding, you know, 550,
700 size foils very frequently.
And it was just amazing the amount of progression that I had on those.

(20:45):
After spending all that time on those, I started looking for the next thing, I knew that new
foils were coming out and I'm a big believer in standing on top of your gear.
You know, when new stuff is coming out, I do think that there's the possibility that it
can better your experience.
So I started looking for other options.

(21:07):
The code foils, I tried the 8, I think it's 850 and 980 are the sizes for code.
And then I tried the new lift havoc lineup.
I tried the new lift, the Florence Brothers, the big one and the small one, think 110 and
130X.

(21:28):
I also tried to think of what else I tried this year.
There's a few others out there.
But then kind of from out of nowhere, I got a Facebook message from somebody at AFS.
And they said, hey, you should try our foils.

(21:50):
I was like, oh, this is kind of weird.
Like here's this company that I've never heard of.
They were really under the radar here in the States.
And I didn't know anything about them.
So having them reach out and ask me to demo their foils up, I'll give these a try.
And I started looking at them and I was like, oh, this kind of looks like the Cougira stuff,

(22:14):
you know.
And that made me not stoked because I felt like I had been so plateaued on the Cougira's
and then now here I am going back to that same kind of tubercle design.
But the first foil that I took out was the silk 1050.

(22:34):
And that foil blew my mind.
I was at that point in time, I was consistently riding either a 700 or an 850 every single
day, no matter what the wind speed was.
Like I was riding those sizes.
So I kind of decided in my head like I'm never going to ride big foils ever again.

(22:57):
And not the 1050 is really even that big.
But I just I thought to myself like no, everything is going to be small from here on out.
And I tried the silk 1050 and I couldn't believe I couldn't believe how fun it was with a really
small tail.
It was incredibly loose, crazy, crazy loose and surfy.

(23:19):
And it was, it gave me that next step after cloud nine.
So cloud nine was a little bit more controlled, a little more beginner friendly, beginner to
intermediate, like a lot of progression.
And then when I got onto the silk foils, it was this immediate like oh my gosh, this

(23:47):
foil is exactly what I want my surfing to be.
I wasn't thinking about anything anymore when I was starting riding that foil.
I was just performing.
And I could hear, you know, I could hear the tips coming out, but I couldn't feel anything
in the water.

(24:08):
It was just this incredibly beautiful experience that I was so stoked on.
So then I demoed the whole silk line.
I bought the silk 650 and the silk 1050 as my two like high and low wind foils.
And then the ultra 750 also came out and was super nervous about that foil and about that

(24:34):
one.
But that has also turned out to be a favorite for me.
And that one kind of taught me a lot about how important your fuselength and your mast
and your stabilizer.
If that foil, if it doesn't have the right mast with the right fuse and the right tail, I

(24:58):
don't really care for it.
But then with the right mast and the right tail and the right fuselength, it was like oh,
this is awesome.
This is the only foil I want to ride.
So it was pretty shocking to see how dramatically you could impact that experience.
So now I'm riding AFS full time and I don't think there's even another foil on the market

(25:24):
at the moment that I have it interested in even trying.
I just want to go out and ride as much as possible.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, it's been interesting reading your reports and seeing how much you love them.
Yeah.
And you've tried the Andeuros also just quickly.
Yeah, I tried the, I got to try the Enduro 700 when AFS came to town for AWSI and they did

(25:54):
AFS Day at the hatch.
And that was very similar experience for me where I got on it.
It was just instantly right at home, felt perfect.
And it was really well balanced for glide if you look at the SOK 650 versus the Enduro 700

(26:15):
versus the Ultra 750.
It's really like the SOK 650 and the Ultra 750 had a baby and it was the Enduro 700.
It's like the perfect blend of those two foils.
I haven't tried the larger sizes.
I've heard awesome things about the 900.
And then I don't know anybody that's tried the 1100 or the 1300, but I do wonder how they

(26:43):
perform.
When the AFS guys were in town, they told me that the 1300 was kind of a shocking foil because
it could still perform in really big conditions.
It was fast enough and slippery enough that you could still have fun even when it was really
pumping.
So, for people that are learning down on subfoil, I haven't tried that one, but I wonder if

(27:04):
that would be a really fun foil to do that on because that was one of the things I struggled
with with my ham and subfoiling was the foils that I could have had a lot really efficiently.
I didn't really enjoy riding.
So I do wonder about the bigger Enduro's and if they would be good for that.

(27:26):
Yeah, can you demo the Enduro's at some point in the future?
Do you have access to that in your area?
Or do you have any?
Yeah, so there, I believe we're getting an AFS dealer here in the Gorge that I hope to
be able to collaborate with.

(27:49):
And then Gwen of GenuGwenLituator is.
He's out of a wing foil pro center.
And he's the one who actually set me up with the silk demos.
And I'm sure that he would let me demo the Enduro's as well, but he might be in Florida

(28:13):
for the winter at this point.
So we don't have them in a shop locally in the Gorge at the moment.
I think that that's going to happen, but I don't know for sure.
So yes, I will get to try on my thing and hopefully get to write up a big review on them.

(28:34):
At this point, I just have a couple of buddies who have purchased them, but unfortunately
they're not local.
They're like my friends from all over.
So I get secondhand accounts, but I haven't gotten to try the whole range.
But one day, it's coming.
It's such a hard thing when you hear about foils and there's always hype at first.

(28:55):
You're trying to figure out what is this new creature?
Is it for me or is it feeling my style?
Or is it not really?
And if you can demo them, it's great.
If you can demo them, then you have to buy and see.
And yeah, it can be painful.
It can be great.

(29:16):
Also, it's kind of a gamble.
Yeah.
And though absolutely, I think that not being able to demo gear is really challenging.
It's frustrating to have to spend large amounts of money in order to get your hands on gear
that you don't know if it's going to feel good.

(29:39):
But one of the things that I always try to encourage people is to look at what you personally
want the foil to do for you as opposed to reading the marketing and reading what the marketing
says the foil is going to do for you.

(30:00):
Because pretty much every new foil that comes out is the game changer.
Right?
This is it.
Epic, next level of foil.
And then we all get hyped up and we all get foam on or thinking like, maybe this is it.
I've got to get this one.
But you can kind of slow things down and you start thinking, well, again, this is what I do
when I'm purchasing my foils is I think to myself, okay, what specifically do I want the foils

(30:28):
to do for me?
And I look at the physical characteristics a lot.
I'm one of the people that's measuring everything and looking at all these different dimensions
and saying, well, you know, I know that my style benefits from these specific dimensions
in a foil.

(30:49):
And then that I feel like that empowers me to make a little bit better choice when I'm buying
blind.
But yeah, it's brutal.
And I hope that everybody kind of slows down and tries to think, okay, what again, what do
I want this for the do for me?

(31:10):
And then if you look past the marketing hype and you look at the dimensions and you
start hearing the reports, you know, figure out how to ask the right questions.
Hey, how does the foil perform in this specific circumstance and ask questions about the gear
that are going to give you answers to whether or not that foil is going to work for you or

(31:35):
if you're going to be a person who ends up working for the foil and doing your riding in a way
that the foil wants to be written, that's not how I want my recreation to go.
I want the foil basically to complement my riding style and I want it to just kind of disappear

(31:56):
in my head so that I can just perform and not be focused on, like, okay, well, I have to
make sure I dance around this because this foil doesn't like it and I have to dance around
that because it doesn't like this.
So it's tough, it's really tough and I think especially being in the gorge, we're lucky
here in that most every brand I think wants to have a presence in the gorge because there's

(32:23):
so many, so many clientele.
So it's still not easy to get demos but it's easier to get demos here in the gorge.
Yeah, so in my area, I'm in South Portugal and there's very few people around but what I

(32:44):
found useful, I mean, you have friends sometimes and you can switch gear and that helps but also
I found that some people online are quite reliable.
Like, you can, you know their taste and you know what they ride and you know what you
ride compared to them and so they can say, like, you agree on something, like, oh, we agree

(33:08):
on this foil, this is this way and this new foil, I have it and this is how it feels compared
to the one you know.
And so, yeah, like Adam Bennett's for a long time, he was just riding everything and so you
could contact him, you know, in message and just try to sass out, okay, what do you think

(33:31):
are the best prone, prone foils at the moment and of course you have to understand, okay,
this is his preference and then you have to see compared to him what you tend to prefer
and I would get away with a lot of good foils like that but now that he's committed to a brand,
it's really tricky and a lot of people in the end come into brands eventually and I mean

(33:56):
Eric Antonson was also trying a lot of things and also different masks and different things
and now that he's committed to unify it, it's kind of a resource that's also gone and it's
okay, he's producing great foils so it's great for the community but yeah, that's why when
I saw your post and details, I was like, oh finally I found someone else that's giving

(34:22):
info and comparing things and is not influenced by like a brand or a contract or incentives,
it's very rare and super valuable so yeah, it's tricky but I mean it's a good problem to
have I guess because if you're wondering what foil you should buy next, your life is pretty

(34:46):
good. I totally agree with you. I figured out what you were saying kind of late, I don't think
I was noticing that there were certain people out there that were riding everything and

(35:10):
giving good feedback on everything and then they slowly kind of got brand committed. So
a few people appointed that out to me now that like hey this is happening and it's harder
and harder to get that kind of independent information and surely there's people doing

(35:32):
it still, right? But they don't have tens of thousands of followers on social media or like
me, I originally started out writing reviews just in forums and then I was realizing oh that's
great but then once that forum post kind of just drops into nothingness, it's never seen

(35:59):
again so that's why I started the website so that all that information would kind of just
live there forever and continue to be a resource because I think we all need more of those
reviews and we need them to be readily available to us and not reviews coming from people who

(36:24):
thought that those people are intentionally trying to mislead anyone at all but you know it's
difficult to speak really critically when you're under contract. So I would love to see
more people able to speak up and talk about those different things and especially what you

(36:46):
were saying there with finding people that hey you know we both have ridden this foil and
we both really like this foil. I don't know how you could expand on that and start to create
this really unique network of people trying stuff but that would be really cool for me.
It kind of started with the Cloud 9 foils when I was actually an ambassador for them and

(37:12):
I got in contact with other Cloud 9 ambassadors and then we were discussing our experiences
in the Gorge versus in the ocean with this foil, with that foil, you know with these different
boards and there was kind of this community that was happening but it wasn't public knowledge,
it wasn't publicly available to everyone so unfortunately it never grew to what I think

(37:38):
you're speaking to is that it would be awesome if we were able to have this resource you know
of hey these people all really like riding silk foils and these are the other foils that
they compared to them. You know this is what they think of the F1 skate and the what's
accesses the Spitfire and then the Cloud 9 FS line you know just checking the boxes on

(38:04):
all these different surf foils and seeing you know hey why did this work why didn't it
work it'd be really cool to see more collaboration like that I think I think that's exciting.
Yeah I mean ideally you would you would need to have the person filmed from the outside
seeing what they're doing okay what kind of place we're talking about what kind of wave are

(38:27):
we talking about the period and the power and the other experience you could see like what
level he is and then you can you can find your replica out there because yeah but I think
some foils though across disciplines and across riders like the Tacuma V1 I mean it was really

(38:51):
something special and apparently at the Cloud 9 there are like foils that are across the board
appreciated by people and they tend to stand out but yeah it would be it would be great to have
this resource at the moment it's you can do it manually you can find people that you know they

(39:13):
are this level blah blah blah and then reach which out to them talk a bit and yeah and yeah I thought
about it a bit but I think it's it's pretty tricky because you have to know what's that person level
and what are they writing and so it's something you you learn by yeah getting to know people and

(39:35):
yeah I'm not sure there's a solution to it but yeah but the gear is getting excellent across all
brands like slowly but surely so it's less and less a dramatic difference between foils and so
yeah I think it's getting better on that front but yeah

(39:56):
yeah no I I think you're right about the filming and having footage of everyone being helpful to
and I think about it with I I was pretty passionate about pursuing smaller wings and lighter winds
and one of the one of the things that I wasn't actively thinking about when I was kind of reporting

(40:21):
wind speeds you know I was getting up in these really low wind speeds and people were just like oh
really is that that real are you are you actually getting up at that
and the thing that we have in the gorgeous we have current so I actually had to start I would report

(40:42):
the wind speed but then it was like oh and there's 200,000 cubic feet per second of current
you know moving in opposition to that so then your wind speed is is not especially accurate
so you're right you know if you can see videos and you can and you can actually break down all the

(41:05):
data it will help to communicate better and figure out what foils are going to work best for you
but but yeah everything is getting really good I haven't I can't remember the last time I tried a
foil that I thought oh no no no no don't don't ever want to ride that one again that just hasn't
happened in a really I think since you know some of the original Gen 1 stuff that was way back when

(41:32):
you know and that's usually like when I meet people at the beach and they say hey I can't I can't
make my jive can you give me any tips oftentimes I say well hey can I just can I take your your kit
for a ride real quick and then I look at it like a surreal foil go out and and then I can't jive

(41:57):
on it if you know and I'm crashing on jives on their kits and and that's when you know I get to see
like hey you know it's probably time to to try something different why don't you try my foil and
see how that feels and then you get to see those breakthrough moments for people right when they're
going from this really old Gen 1 foil and then they try it today's modern foils and they're instantly

(42:19):
jiving and then having so much fun they come in with this huge smile on their face because they're
just super stoked they're like oh my gosh I really thought it was me but it looks like I can just
get a new foil and then I'm going to start progressing again so it's exciting yeah it's an exciting
feeling I remember I was I was ongoing for a while going for it's and you know the curve model they

(42:45):
have they had this downward curve at the tips and so well they were really hard to pump around and
then as soon as you would bridge the tip it would just suck out the air and drop down so you would
it was almost impossible to recover from bridging and yeah I had a friend

(43:07):
making me try the Tacuma the the V1 the Kujira and yeah I was just
liberation you just realize wow it's not it's not me like the the foil is just so good and yeah
yeah and then I mean it's been several times in a row because that Tacuma the the mask was so

(43:28):
flexible like it was so much wobble in the system and yeah so stepping into like more stiff
masks and and slick systems and then yeah like I think it was a year or half ago like getting on F1
where it's stiff and thin profiles on those fast waves or it was just beauty like you feel on rails

(43:55):
and in control and the wing is not maxing out what what a feeling and yeah I'm guessing it's
going to be less and less of those aha moments unfortunately but it's I guess it's more joy and on
day to day basis because you can just ride without falling too much and yeah just enjoy instead of

(44:16):
killing a problem that is not your fault so there is like the construction or the design and yeah
yeah it's it's been a journey what what what foil are you riding most days now um so I've been on F1
for yeah I think the last year and a half um I was on cabrina before which was okay I had like a

(44:40):
super high modulus mask somehow I got it second hand it was like a racing mask that was molded
into a cabrina that was really good but my friend got uh got F1 and he told me I just tried out so I
I was like yeah okay I'll just try and I tried the the Ego 790 and um yeah I was winging on that

(45:06):
a little bit light wind but big oceans were rolling in oh and it was just like being on rails
and riding like super fast super in control and I felt like the master of the world really like uh
yeah like when you're going you know a good 20 30 percent faster than that you used to and you feel

(45:33):
completely in control and you can carve the waves away you envision it it was yeah insane so
so I jumped on F1 and um yeah I got the egos and all the skates and uh and yeah now I settled kind of
on the the Ego 790 for pruning and the skate 750 for winging um it's giving more control in the choppy

(46:01):
waters and then I still have the skate 950 for small pruning conditions um yeah but I had
other sizes and I think they I think they're doing great but um yeah like for for really fast waves
high energy waves I feel like they're really good but for like smaller waves if you just need to

(46:27):
pruning small waves and pump around for a long time or if you're in light wind and you like riding
with the bumps with the wing then I don't think it's that good feel like the bigger sizes day
they don't roll that well they get a little bit stuck in roll and they don't have that free feeling

(46:47):
like the Kojiras you know you can roll so easily so yeah I think now I'm getting the the AFS uh the
Anduro the 700 I'll try and um yeah I'm keen to try that and then go from there because it seems like
I don't know if you know the backstory but uh Laurent Borneau who was designing for Takuma

(47:11):
he changed like I don't know exactly but apparently he got fired and so he was looking around
then he got hired by a AFS and now there's like the construction of a AFS which is really
it seems to be really legit high-model isn't everything plus his designs that are I mean

(47:32):
it's been proving himself over and over again so yes I'm really keen to try and also your feedback
in amazing or feedback on the silks is top notch so um so I'm keen to try the Anduro's and see if
they are good to pump around in the self and um yeah and uh I was a bit reluctant for the silks because

(47:58):
they are monoblock construction and so yeah it's not the easiest to transport and to yeah to move
around so I was just hoping they would do a silk with the new system and then you can have several
wings and doesn't take space and what we'll see on the road might just do the job so I'll dig my

(48:20):
toes into that and then just keep the F1 on the side and go from there yeah I uh when I when I tried
the Anduro 700 my immediate thought was that if I if I had the silk A50 I would I would ditch the

(48:43):
silk A50 for the Anduro 700 immediately um so I that I really like that foil I really like that one
and I it's it's in the back of my head you know about potentially getting that one uh
but man I just my clever right now all three of those foils are just so good it's it's hard to say

(49:12):
you know hey when would the 700 be better than anything else I have in my quiver um so I'll be
really excited to hear what what you think about it and it was great to hear your feedback just now about
the the F1 stuff because here I've tried you know I think the Skate 850

(49:41):
and larger and we have you know it's it's rivers well there's there's really hardly any energy in it at all
and I kind of struggled finding like the the spark in those foils but then I see people pruning them
and huge waves and whatnot and loving it and uh it's good to hear confirmation on that that hey

(50:05):
you know this certain sizes are are gonna be better it's not just you can buy any foil all sizes
and it's gonna be good and then also just the conditions really do matter I think that's something
also that one when when I do reviews for foils I try to say like okay I tested this foil in 10 knots

(50:26):
20 knots 30 knots and 40 knots tested it in flat water tested it in huge swell tested it in ocean
swell um because you you do you find certain foils are gonna perform really well in in some circumstances
been on others so I wish I got to prone I wish I was a prone foiler but that that is crazy hard

(50:52):
so um I only get to go to the ocean a few times a year and uh I've gone out and I've tried it and
that that's got to be the hardest foiling discipline I've ever tried to learn I don't know if you
feel like you learned it quickly did it come to you pretty naturally or was it was it was it hard to learn

(51:13):
no it took time took time for sure I mean I've been surfing for for my whole life but uh
the foils were just terrible at the beginning it was just so bad um yeah
with the current foils I think it's easier but but definitely it's just so hard because you need

(51:35):
technique and fitness and um and so much so much knowledge of the waves and anticipating everything
before it happens because you have you know it takes time to move that that around so it's uh uh
it's it's extremely tricky but also so beautiful you you just with a board paddling around and

(51:56):
the magic happens um but it's yeah you really see the limits of the gear because you need
everything you need something that glides that pumps that turns that goes fast that goes slow
and so yeah you have to make critical choices in your gear and um and especially here in

(52:16):
in Portugal we have very powerful waves really fast they can be fast but they are really
you know open ocean swell they move really fast and so yeah on those on those uh skate and you go
on maxing the speed on takeoff straight away even if it's just high so yeah you need something

(52:38):
that moves really really fast and then you keep it you keep it up to speed and try to connect
um yeah it's it's just very tricky I think some places are more like they look easier like
Florida for example we have small waves and you can take a bigger foil and you can learn to pump and

(52:59):
um and glide on swell and but uh yeah it's definitely tricky I think winging is more accessible and you
this you so much progression you can have in that discipline so yeah yeah but um yeah I think for F1
they they probably designed those smaller sizes first I'm guessing I'm not too sure but I think

(53:26):
the skate the first one they did it was a 750 and then extrapolated the other sizes and apparently
they did a little bit of work to twist the tips and like make it turn a little better but in my
opinion they didn't do enough work there because those 700 size is just magical it turns really well

(53:49):
it glides quite well and those like 850 as soon as you hit the top speed you can feel it's locking
into the roll so you get stuck in the turns yeah yeah not that 9501 that's exact I thought yeah and I
think they compensate it by making extremely short fuselage with the tail but that was a little bit

(54:11):
to the silly idea because you arrive with like triple quadruple excess um I mean we're talking
every axis 3 cm less um and so you end up with 50 cm fuselage instead of
60 65 like everyone's riding so it's extremely pitch sensitive um I don't know I haven't tried them

(54:34):
a lot of those those stockfews but they seem like not the great idea to me um I've been riding them
with the custom fuse that is longer and so I don't have the full story but it seems to me like
it's lacking a little bit of testing on the bigger sizes to open the roll like yeah like

(54:58):
Long Ombong has been doing on on all these furs even if you take a big size it just turns super well
yeah and so yeah it's but always trade-offs because he makes designs a little bit slower and
could you have you ones they were too slow for here but now I'm curious to see yeah the new iterations
if you can make something that works everywhere um yeah it's trade-offs in the end you just gain

(55:25):
somewhere and look somewhere and yeah do you uh do you feel like there's a significant change in
style of prone boards that you're starting to see out there are people shifting towards the
mid lengths or because that was something that I was also intimidated by when I tried to learn prone

(55:48):
it was like hey you need to have you should learn on a 36 liter board that's as short as possible
I was just thinking myself man that's gotta be really really really hard to catch waves on
and sure enough yeah I went out and and you know I did not have I just didn't have the paddle

(56:09):
strength to be out there missing waves for prolonged period of time it was either I was positioned
perfectly and more or less the wave picked me up I don't even think I was actually catching any
waves that I was just getting picked up um do you think that the the mid length designs that are
coming out for some of the prone riders are are gonna take off or do you think that's not as much

(56:35):
why I don't know the so little people around here that I I don't know what's going on in the industry
I see the ads but um but for sure I see that probably 90% of people they would be better off on mid length
and then if you're really like ripping around and you feel like you you're maxing out the board then of

(56:59):
course then go go less leaders but I mean I'm still on the 4/6 I think I could have like 4/8 or
it will be fine yeah those exclusive like 4/0 where they cut the tail and
I'm not sure I haven't tried them but I think it's a it's a very big compromise for very little

(57:25):
little gain in the end um but yeah it's always so it's hard to say before you try but I think for most
people mid length is a better compromise because you want to spend as much time as possible and for
you don't want to be paddling around and missing waves and getting frustrated but it's the same

(57:47):
in surfing people go for small volume performance board and then they can't catch a wave and so what's
what's the point and even if they catch a wave they don't have enough reps to be ripping on that board so
they end up just going rather straight if you're going rather straight then you can have a
board with a lot of volume and and you would take a thousand times more waves so yeah it's always um

(58:15):
with the waves it's a tricky thing you you need to understand the right choices just like you said
like okay what do I where am I like what's my level what do I need to achieve is this design really
adapted to my level or am I fooling myself and trying to be a pro rider or where I'm just a casual

(58:37):
um rider or whatever yeah I don't know so um yeah if you have the right gear at the right time
then you progress so much faster I uh I think one of the big mistakes that I made earlier on was
believing in this idea that I would grow into a piece of gear like oh uh buy something a little

(59:06):
bit too small and then you'll grow into it whereas now I am pretty much dead on just know buy
exactly what you think you can absolutely rip on today you know and then when you're maxing that

(59:27):
piece of gear out when that gear feels slow then move up as opposed to you know buying something that's
super faster or a tiny little sinker board that you're really going to struggle on because for me what
it came down to is I remember when I had my first really short wingboard it was so hard to get on

(59:51):
foil that once I was up I wouldn't try anything I was just mowing the lawn whereas now when I go out
I have no concern about crashing left and right because I know that I'm going to get back up on foil
there might be certain days and certain circumstances where I try to avoid that but um I think

(01:00:16):
feeling really comfortable and in crashing and knowing that that's just a part of the learning experience
and you know that you're going to get right back up on foil that makes all the difference
and for me it's primarily in the wing row because I don't get to prone as much but I can see how
same thing you know if you're not catching waves then what's the point you know you're you're not

(01:00:39):
able to progress so yeah I mean it's fine like if it's your choice and you I mean you
you still privileged to be in the water and enjoy yourself but if you want to progress then yeah
it's going against that so yeah it's true do you still do any traditional surfing?

(01:01:04):
yeah yeah of course um yeah whenever the waves are like steep or good I mean then by all means I like
to to be on a sticky surfboard or a comedian surfboard but yeah yeah but more and more it's you know
more and more people are surfing and so more and more I find myself just foiling to

(01:01:28):
to I mean when I foil I'm mostly guaranteed I'm gonna have a good time because I can still
get some carbs down and feel that but when I am going surfing then you it's hard to get your fix
when you've been surfing for a long time it's you expect certain things and so you harder to

(01:01:50):
get get your fix so extra extra careful and yeah foiling is really disappointing compared to
the surfing which can be a bit like I thought it would be like this and then people show up or
conditions change and it's just like yeah like surfing or windsurfing it's just more demanding on

(01:02:11):
the conditions and so when the conditions are prime it's the best tool but most of the time
it's not the best time to have fun so yeah but I I totally agree with you I think if you do several
sports then you can be open-minded and and just adapt to the conditions and not try to you know

(01:02:33):
have a hammer and then try to hammer every day the same thing and yeah yeah sometimes you get nails
and you can hammer them down that's great but sometimes it's not nails so your hammer is not gonna work
if your hammer is crueze it's not gonna work that well even if you have a good hammer

(01:02:54):
yeah it's that open-mindedness I think it's it's great and also you yeah you keep changing focus so you
you kind of forget about the other discipline you come back to it and it feels fresh
and you feel so happy to do it again instead of doing always the same and you lose the you lose the

(01:03:19):
contrast you lose the perspective on it and so yeah so yeah I think sorry go ahead did you
did you stop the other activities like riding or climbing yeah so that's that's actually exactly what
I was gonna say I did I did stop climbing and I stopped climbing you know the injuries had really

(01:03:47):
piled up but also culturally we experienced a really big change in rock climbing where when I
learned to climb there was not climbing gyms and the the way people were taught and mentored in

(01:04:10):
rock climbing you had to go out into the wilderness with people who are accomplished and were safe and
knew how to get everyone out there to have this experience and bring everybody back home it was
this really kind of beautiful sacred kind of mentorship which I assume you know is how a lot of you
know people learn how to surf but then when it when it's switched and now the majority of rock climbers

(01:04:38):
are actually gym climbers and then those gym climbers when they when they show up you know they don't
understand the same ethic can educate when they go outside I the best the best way I can probably
bring it back into the foiling realm is the concerns that people have about you know foil drives right

(01:05:01):
so you might have someone who genuinely let yourself you learned how to prone surf and you
prone surf for many years you understand how the lineup works and then you've learned how to
prone foil but then somebody might come in and they have a foil drive and they have no concept of

(01:05:22):
of of these other things this other part of surfing they're just able to get out there and go
so it creates kind of this
uncomfortable situation between different user groups that that's unfortunate and for me

(01:05:43):
the rock climbing thing I I got so many injuries from just you know I've blown out all the tendons
in my fingers and dislocated my shoulders and I've had all the stuff that just kept adding up and
and I I'm a carpenter and a woodworker so I need my hands and my shoulders and all my joints they

(01:06:03):
need everything to work so that I can work so I did I really I still have my climbing gear and I
might go back one day but it won't ever be on the same I won't be pushing my limits like I was
back back when I was really serious about it and then climbing and and and sub surfing or sorry

(01:06:27):
citing and sub surfing I haven't cited in about two years and I'm ready to get the kites out again and
I think I needed to put the kites away in order to achieve a certain level of competency in my foiling

(01:06:47):
I wanted to get to a place as a foiler where I could go out in any condition and feel confident
and knew that I could perform in any condition and I wasn't getting there very quickly because I was
splitting my time with citing whereas citing I know I can go out in any condition and now I know

(01:07:09):
I can go out in any condition as a as a winger and then the sub foiling or traditional sub surfing
I hadn't been since I think it was March was the last time I had been out maybe nine months ago later
nine months ago and I just went out this last week and it was so incredibly fun to go out there and

(01:07:31):
and to just you know do something different it's like you said you know you you put these old toys
away and then you focused on something else but then you bring them back out again and and you're like
oh this is this is really really great you know I'm out there and it's not epic conditions or
anything like that you know it's probably waist high surf but I'm able to get out I'm on the shoulder

(01:07:57):
I'm way away from all the the prone surfers so I'm not you know causing any stress in the lineup as
I stand up out there and I go out and I get wave after wave after wave and I'm just
relaxed and have fun and I'm in a beautiful place and I'm taking in the nature and it's great I
I really love it and the citing is going to come back um spur specific uh timelines during the

(01:08:26):
summer here I think um we in the gorge are starting to have a major problem with uh with we
used and uh I was starting to have so many bad crashes foiling because I would hit these large clumps

(01:08:46):
these balls of weeds and they all come when the water warms up so the water warms up the weeds bloom
and then people start cutting the weeds and then there's these little islands of weeds floating around
in the middle of the river um and being being out there with a kite in the surfboard it didn't bother
me anywhere near as much um whereas the foil is as I'm sure you know the you get one weed strand on

(01:09:12):
your mask around the foil and you can feel it you're like oh I I have to come off foil hop down pull that
off um so I think the citing will come back for me in the prime season so the July and August in
the gorge I'll probably start citing up again um there will certainly be days where I'll still foil um

(01:09:33):
and and you know this is all theoretical now right now right so when the summertime comes I might
get overly frothed and start uh winging nonstop again but I have a feeling that I'm going to be
more balanced because I don't foresee I'm not I'm not trying any kind of freestyle

(01:09:57):
maneuvers as a as a winger so performance for me is about swell riding at this point so for me it's
going to be more okay well going out there and I'm I'm performing on these days and these conditions
and if those conditions aren't there then I probably want to switch and I'm going to you know
tight today and and do this differently and you know if those conditions aren't right either then

(01:10:22):
I probably want to go out to the coast and I want to do some subsurfing and uh just try and different
things on different days in the future um it's um it's really interesting because when you when
you get really good at that something you've you spend I don't know how many hours but you get
really confident then you can do other things and when the day is good for it you come back to

(01:10:47):
it and you you almost click instantly into it again and so you just come for the for the fruits you know
and it's very interesting you you serve yourself yeah all those medium average sessions
you just keep all those you do something else and then when it's prime you just show up on the

(01:11:07):
beach and and do it um it's like uh yeah it's magical you just come to collect the fruits um
yeah I uh I was climbing when I was younger and then yeah I kind of stopped and uh and I came
back to it recently and it it felt surprising and good it was you know when you you have an idea of

(01:11:32):
something and then you think yeah I've done that I'm I'm over it and then you you come back to it
long time after and you yeah you realize wow actually it's it's really fun and also you have a
different view on things like I realized aha yeah I like climbing but now I I see the risk much more

(01:11:54):
because when you're young you know you're just climbing you don't really think about it you're above
the the the ankle like the points you're like you're clipping drawers and you're climbing and you
don't think about it and now I really see okay calculating risks and assessing I don't want to
I don't want to fall here and and so you you approach disciplines differently with your experience also

(01:12:16):
so but did you did you take any falls back in the days or how did you you were climbing overhangs
um or was it track climbing or or more with uh with quick draws like modern style climbing
so I was more of a track climber um I especially liked um technical face track climbing that had

(01:12:47):
really unique and tricky gear challenges um just because it was the psychological challenge of
climbing steeped overhang faces while also trying to rack gear and get good pieces of gear that you
knew if you took a fall your gear was gonna hold um I statistically yeah I guess I really like that

(01:13:15):
now I but now I just you would say that I'm kind of like what was I thinking you know um so I enjoyed it
and I did I've had quite a few big falls maybe in the 30 to 40 foot range and then the the biggest

(01:13:40):
fall I ever had was about 80 foot um and that was that one was actually uh was really lucky
and that one I was I was dropped by the belayer um so I fell um I was right at the chains up at the
anchor and the belayer thought that I was pulling slack to clip on though and he held open and he was

(01:14:11):
playing with a gree-gree and he held the gree-gree open and I fell and I was really like I hit the ground
but he was able to to arrest the fall just enough that I wasn't I didn't have a bad
injure and I think but that I mean that was from the chains to the ground that that was and you know

(01:14:38):
that that really stuck with me that psychologically that was hard to ever get past I mean even now it's
been how many years since since that happened but that memory is still right there I remember exactly
what happened and have you had one of those experiences where your uh your body in your mind don't

(01:14:58):
really know how how to respond and it was like that for me where you know I I fell of this huge
distance and like like scuffed off the ground and and I just kind I just started laughing because
it's like kind of in shock of like oh my gosh did that did that really just happen um so that I

(01:15:22):
think that and I think that too that actually was kind of part of where the decline started to
happen for me with with climbing because I always shook up by that one that you know that last
and whereas some of the other ones that 30 and 40 footers those never really bothered me
because they were on steep faces you're you're falling into air and it was just a part of the

(01:15:47):
experience and I've never had any of my gear ever pull out on a cliff so every piece I've ever
placed and fallen on as always held thank goodness um so yeah I've had I've had some falls and
I still had tons of fun with it and I only had one like genuine close call in all my years climbing

(01:16:11):
but I I was you know a certified climbing instructor and I was teaching so all my safety stuff was
was really really really dialed and the people that I climbed with I had very regular partners um
that were really reliable the person who dropped me was somebody that I had not climbed with before
um and that was also eye opening to me too is this you know hey you need to be aware of who you're

(01:16:37):
you're out climbing with kind of like launching a kite right you know you don't want just
anybody to launch a kite for you you want to make sure they know what they're doing so
what about you are you have you had some big falls climbing or do you try or sport or
no I've only done sports climbing I'm a chicken but but for sure I grew up in the outdoors also and

(01:17:01):
yeah it's never been about about going to the gym like although I like the gym and I respect that
I took a few falls yeah sports climbing and yeah like hitting hitting back like falling and then
hitting back the cliff pretty pretty hard and being being shaken out for a few weeks and not really

(01:17:22):
wanting to climb again and uh but there was a long time ago and yeah now I'm very aware of okay how high
am I what's gonna happen if I fall but in the end it's part of climbing you you just accept you're
above you're above your last point and that's also the beauty of it you you have to be there in the

(01:17:44):
moment it's it's you make it or you don't and I think that's what's also a big thing about it it's
the commitment and the consequence in a good way like it's not usually it's not consequence
where you're gonna hurt yourself you're just gonna fall and it's gonna be scary and so
99.9% of the time you make it and you feel good about it so yeah I think when there's consequences

(01:18:12):
if you can find places where there's consequence but it's not gonna be an injury then it's
it's great because you feel really alive you know when you when you do a little downwind run and you
on a prone board and you know if you if you fall you're gonna have to paddle back or it feels special
you just like fully focused and yeah I don't know unlike those but yeah I would I would not um

(01:18:42):
take a risk on my health but but if it's a risk like oh I have to paddle half an hour or
or I have to take a fall on the road and then I would happily take it to to to play with that
that edge and then really feel like okay you know you can't be thinking about anything else you have

(01:19:02):
to be here now and and you're gonna make it and yeah yeah it's it's special I think probably
biologically we are conditioned for that you know we're not hunting anymore or just for recreation
but we're not hunting for food and so we don't have those moments where it matters with it really

(01:19:25):
a moment where you have to be there on performance so I think all those activities we
somehow we search for that also and yeah yeah it's uh it's interesting in that a lot of people

(01:19:45):
feel very uncomfortable going into those spaces and I think it's something that is it's really
natural to feel uncomfortable going to those places where you're you feel a certain amount of
risk and there's a certain amount of trust that you have to put in yourself but I think it's also

(01:20:12):
an opportunity for phenomenal personal growth just because as you continue to push those limits
and then go to places that are a little bit more uncomfortable you it's just the same thing is
your first day winging right your first day winging is is uncomfortable you know you your first day

(01:20:34):
on foil is uncomfortable you're you're not competent yet and I think about it with the distance
that I foil away from my launch whereas you know that first year I stayed pretty close you know and I
wanted to always be someplace where I could swim back and that was a big difference with with
kite boarding or as kite boarding I never felt inspired to go five kilometers away and then to

(01:21:04):
and then try to come back because if that kite went down or if I broke a line the equipment was not
going to get me home um so I was always very aware of the consequence of that risk whereas
with the wing foiling as the gear especially as the gear has really progressed I find

(01:21:24):
that these mid-length boards and especially if if people are on like a neutral or positive volume
mid-length board the consequence of coming off foil and not being able to get back up foil and having
a slog back in lowers that confidence or that that consequence level and allows you to increase

(01:21:47):
your confidence so you can go farther and farther and farther away and then you know you're
able to explore more places and see new things and that's something that I I love in the gorge is
that very commonly I I launch and and I sail you know three or four miles away and then I have my

(01:22:10):
session where there's no one around and then I sail back and I'm able to do that it was progression
but then also trusting the gear and knowing hey if if something does go wrong
have this you know board that I can now own paddle back on it's gonna be a bummer it's not

(01:22:31):
really gonna be fun to have to do that but um I'd like to see more people stretch their comfort level
and and try things like that um and I've I've noticed that it really takes off when
there are people who take on mentor roles and say hey you know why don't you come with me let's

(01:22:56):
like I know you're a little nervous about going to that buoy over there but how about we go to that
buoy together I'll stay with you we go to that buoy and then and then we'll come back um and then
you see your friends start to progress and start to feel more and more comfortable going to these
new places and exploring and spreading out on the water and and finding new spots and I think that's

(01:23:21):
one of the most exciting things for me about the wing foiling is that ability to really explore to go
so far away and and to be able to make it back um and especially in the gorge you know somebody
sets up into me and when I was a having a wing foil session in the ocean the other day they're like hey
you're going way way offshore and I was like am I really am I really that far out and I did I did I

(01:23:50):
checked my my GP at work Garmin watching I was like oh yeah I guess I kind of am way out there
um but in the in the gorge you know if something goes wrong it's you paddle this way or you paddle
this way and then you're you're back to shore really quickly you're never in a circumstance where

(01:24:12):
you're extremely isolated and having a hard time getting back to land whereas the ocean is
a different different beast for sure and especially here some of the downwinders that you could do
and on our coast you might go through sections where it's clipped out and it's like hey you cannot

(01:24:33):
come back into shore you know we have you know 15 mile long sandy beaches but then you might have 15
miles of rocky cliffs it's like if you choose to go down that you'd you have to make it you have to
finish um so I think becoming comfortable and confident you know with those challenges is what

(01:24:54):
it was gonna continue to open up the opportunity to explore farther and farther down the coastlines
through the gorge um yeah I'm not sure if it's true for everybody but I I see it in myself and
friends also like pushing our limits in this uncomfortable zone it's it's where you progress

(01:25:17):
and it's true in life also it's when you're uncomfortable that you really understand new things
about life and you you just grow as a person and if you stay in a comfort zone then you
you have fun but um yeah but I'm not sure if it's true for for everyone but I can see it in myself

(01:25:38):
for sure it's uh it's it's when you're uncomfortable that you're making ground in opening your
opening your mind and yeah do you I think you said you you really enjoyed um mentoring people or helping
people um is that something you do with winging or other things you do you help people with certain things

(01:26:07):
yeah so um I don't I think everybody um has their own
unique strengths and and things that they really enjoy doing and enjoy achieving and I don't know

(01:26:29):
why but um for me I've always I seem to get very little uh I don't have this overwhelming joy when
I learn a new trick myself but if I can help a friend figure something out like helping a friend

(01:26:53):
learn how to jive is like way more exciting to me than you know landing a new trick you know try try
this try that for me a lot of the the tricks are more about uh well it's just a math problem I just
have to figure out how to do this math problem and then it's just repeating it so for me the uh

(01:27:20):
that joy is kind of small but going all the way back so my original career before I became a carpenter
and a woodworker I was a youth mentor and I worked I taught every single outdoor activity there is
from backpacking rock climbing mountain biking whitewater uh you know all all those super fun things

(01:27:45):
and I got spent a ton of time introducing people to those situations and then helping them
uh you know kind of mentoring them through those experiences so that they could try to unlock some
of those experiences in their own minds and that's where I also I did my masters in experiential

(01:28:06):
education as well um and that again just continue to give me this this deep well of of knowledge about
how to interact with people and and how to try to lead them as a learner and see you know oh this person

(01:28:26):
they seem to be musically inclined and because they're musically inclined this is the best way to mentor
them in order to help unlock this movement whereas this person is going to be mathematically inclined
they need technical jargon and that is going to enable them to grasp this concept so that they can do this

(01:28:46):
you know activity and it was something I was very very passionate about and did for a really long time
and I absolutely loved it I missed doing it terribly um so that's now a big part of what I do I don't
I'm not an actual wing coach or anything like that but I very consistently

(01:29:11):
in helping people out of the beach or working there's a there's a really uh really
awesome kid his name is Wyland he's like upcoming freestyler and like I can't really give him anything
right I'm like I can't say what well you know when you're trying to throw that 1080 this is really what

(01:29:31):
you need to be contemplating but it's interesting getting to interact with him and you know when he's
going into a competition you know trying to give him structure in his brain for okay you know this
you know accomplish these things so that you can accomplish these things in that competition so

(01:29:51):
it's more like the mental coaching um that I you know I'm able to share with with a kid like that who
has these physical abilities that are just infinitely beyond anything that I'll ever be able to do as a
winger but then you know still benefiting from just mentorship of like hey this is how you can
approach life and how you can approach these competitions in order to continue to find success so

(01:30:18):
yeah I I love mentoring I love working with people I love helping people out that's a big part of
what my website is you know trying to put all that information in so it's sharing and
available to other people so they can continue to learn um because oftentimes when I'm writing

(01:30:39):
I'm not around anyone you know and I'm not filming and nobody's out there with me
because like we were just talking about I tend to sail very a long ways away from where I launch and
most people are not comfortable with doing that so oftentimes I'm out exploring on solo missions I

(01:31:01):
have my point sailing days run with all my friends and it's great but then I go and explore on my own
so yes I love mentoring I wish I got to do a more um it's something I'm passionate about and I hope
there's more of it available to me in the future because it brings me a lot of joy it really does

(01:31:23):
yeah and I mean your website is super useful even as someone who's outside across across the ocean
just reading your reviews is super helpful so yeah you're helping people on different levels when you
when you do that and so yeah and do you have is it is it um is it the thing that's bringing the most

(01:31:51):
meaning to you in your life we do have other other polls that bring meaning um
yeah um does it does foiling bring the most meaning my life is that the question or is the mentoring

(01:32:13):
I guess like how do you see your relationship to to foiling and all the sports and
is this is it where you get the most meaning in your life or do you have other things
I guess you know with age you evolve and your relationship with sports evolve and you

(01:32:35):
all the sudden it's a different thing you know when you're young you just want to go extreme
and you don't really see the periphery of everything and as you grow you you change and so
you're searching for other things in the discipline and
yeah um

(01:32:56):
you know I I see all of these activities the that I have done in my life as
giving very little meaning to my life I don't I don't feel complete after I go foiling I never felt

(01:33:26):
like I was a better person after I went rock climbing I never
thought to myself that like this is you know I'm living the dream because I went white water kayaking
that day that it was never the the relationship that I had with any of these sports and activities

(01:33:51):
but what these sports and activities do give me is opportunities to build community and interact
with other people who are really passionate about the activity so you know at the activity level

(01:34:13):
it's the community it's the opportunity to be out there with friends and have experiences and
you know shared venture together that's that gives more meaning to me but
beyond that even more personally I I am far more fulfilled when I am able to make my wife laugh

(01:34:38):
you know I find great joy in my interactions with her and
um with without without that part of my life I definitely would not feel balanced or I wouldn't have
the meaning of the foiling and then same thing like when I play with my dog and I tell a group with

(01:35:01):
my dog and then you see your dog smile at the end of you know a play session that's that gives me
meaning that feel up for me is like wow I've provided happiness to my wife I've provided
happiness to my dog and then running a business you know as as a woodworker and a carpenter and

(01:35:22):
building the things that change people's homes and alter their lives and and better their lives
gives me a lot more meaning to my life than my foiling ever has or ever will so

(01:35:43):
interestingly enough I actually look at um look at my foiling as a necessity I really need to go up
there I need to recreate I need to adventure because if I don't do those things then I don't

(01:36:07):
do a very good job at work and I don't go running or biking with my dog and I don't think of special
little surprises for my wife because I didn't take care of you know my personal needs
that are kind of like checking all these boxes and saying like hey I need to go out I need to get
some exercise I need to be in nature I need to see my friends I need to do all these things

(01:36:32):
um those things are all great and I love them but they are not the core of the meaning that I get out
of my life that that makes sense yeah I think I mean when you go out there and you foil and there's no

(01:36:54):
the world doesn't change but if you if you are helping someone or if you're building something then
you can see there is a response like there is a change and so there's a feedback loop I guess and
yeah I can I can relate to show that's a very interesting way to to put it

(01:37:22):
hmm do you have um do you have still time or how how are we with time
we're good we're good maybe I don't have anything for a few more hours
maybe a few more questions then we can yeah yeah I think we've covered a lot of ground and

(01:37:45):
you know I'm grateful for that and I yeah I don't want to take a whole day um no
let me see um do you have do you have things you think um you're thinking and everyone else is
thinking the contrary like do you have things you think you're kind of alone thinking that like you have

(01:38:12):
you're going against the grain on that front
um I think I think maybe the way I approach selecting equipment is a little bit against the grain

(01:38:35):
um I think I look at things from a very very very analytical standpoint as opposed to
um I think a majority of people are looking at it from purely from a feeling standpoint and

(01:38:58):
and I combine them both I look at things analytically at the the start and then I go out there and
if the analytics line up then I pursue the experience and then see how things
feel on the water and then I try to alter that feeling by going back to the analytics and seeing what

(01:39:19):
what I can analytically break down and then do in order to alter the feeling that I have on the water
so I think that's a little bit a little bit like against the grain or a little bit different um
and uh uh also you know try to listen to intuition a lot um I don't I don't know how common

(01:39:52):
that is I think in some ways I think uh I think a lot of people are out foiling and they're just
they're just having fun and uh I'm oftentimes I'm always having fun but I'm thinking about
all of the details on such a high level and and trying to balance you know I'm trying to

(01:40:18):
always find a way to make everything a little bit better and it's and I think that's part of what I
really like about wing foiling but it's also hard is is you know you have a board and then you have
a foil which everyone has a board and a foil but then now you you've introduced this wing and the wing

(01:40:45):
is so sensitive and forces you to be more involved with the wind and uh forces you to manage this other
item and uh I'm I'm just I'm constantly thinking the whole time I'm I'm out there like oh how how
could this be better how could that be better what could change here um so that that's probably

(01:41:10):
other than this maybe a little a little different if that's if that's the question that you were asking
yeah um yeah I think it's uh I heard the interview of the f1 uh father and and son I think the father
is uh he could he cannot go out and just enjoy himself he needs to tweak things and so yeah

(01:41:34):
he said yeah he's always testing and then when he's going in the mountains um he's testing snowboards
and so he has 20 snowboards and he keeps like tweaking and changing and yeah I guess it's
yeah it's a very specific um personality trait like you you just try to improve thing all the time and

(01:41:58):
then yeah um yeah maybe if you had a giant billboard and you could put a message on it and everyone
could see it what would it be thanks for oh question that I've heard Tim Ferris uh asked people
wow that's

(01:42:24):
that's a really interesting question what was his answer do you remember uh I mean he was he was asking
guests um regularly that question and you get all kinds of things I mean people get
it can be about foiling it can be um about life in general like um you know stop watching your phone

(01:42:49):
or it can be philosophical it's something you wish people would pay more attention to or
you know it's something that would benefit people in general I guess
there can be anything um

(01:43:12):
I don't know except I wouldn't be able to tell you the exact words but I think um
probably something along the lines of you know know yourself and I think that
taps into my experiences as a mentor and an educator and what I believe

(01:43:39):
about looking for a gear and identifying gear and purchasing gear all those things and
knowing what kind of experience that you want to have when you're out on the water and I
I really want people to know themselves so that they can ask the right questions and have the right

(01:44:00):
experiences out there as opposed to um having the experiences that they're that they're told they're
supposed to have and doing foiling the way they think it's supposed to be done uh because they watched
a YouTube clip and they saw such and such person foiling and they thought oh well that's

(01:44:25):
that's what you do like that's what foiling is I I would rather people were
curious and exploring their own desires with it it's something that I remember as a rock climbing
instructor I was so passionate about with all these kids that were learning the climb or doing

(01:44:53):
any of these other activities with me and one of the one of the most common things that would
happen it was pretty much every single kid they looked down at you and they said what do I what do I
do now what do I do now and I always said you know your your whole life for the rest of your life
there's probably going to be somebody telling you what to do they're gonna you're gonna have a boss

(01:45:19):
or a teacher or a family member you're gonna have responsibilities and you're gonna have people
telling you what to do for the rest of your life when you're out when you're recreating listen to yourself
you know explore what's possible to you and and what you feel inspired to do and how you feel inspired

(01:45:45):
to move on the water just just because you watched a video and you saw cash perp as a la you know
shredding I think his recent South Africa movie like just because you see that and think like hey I
probably can't do that so I'll never learn a foil like that's not that's not what you should take

(01:46:06):
away from something like that I I want you to think about you know how do you envision it yourself and
so yeah either you know know yourself that just seems like something that's an important lesson but
then either that and maybe one side of the board would say know yourself and the other side of the
board would say be curious that's what I put on my board do you yeah exactly exactly yeah

(01:46:38):
right what about you I'm not sure yeah I think those are really really good actually
yeah like staying open that's a big one you know okay maybe you know something but just try
try foiling you never know maybe it's it's a beautiful rabbit hole and might change your life

(01:47:04):
and and it's true for so many things like it doesn't cost much to try and then yeah
and yeah do you I think very important because what's the point of doing someone else's life
it's more comfortable you don't have to think for yourself but yeah this this I think every person

(01:47:28):
is different and so yeah if you express yourself you're just gonna stand out it's like every person
is different and you grow in a different direction and and also you contribute to the world when you
when you're doing you you you just contribute to other people because you have a unique footprint
and so you you're doing a great benefit for the world so yeah no those are those are great

(01:47:57):
all right well I think that's we can close the the podcast on that all right but yeah thank you for
your time and you can come back anytime if you want to do reviews of foils regularly you can we can

(01:48:19):
come and yeah we can talk about it I think your website is also just great because you put the
analytics and you're really doing it like methodically and so yeah it's really a thorough analysis so
yeah well this was also just really really nice getting to talk to somebody and have

(01:48:41):
deep engaging conversation and I think it that's a that's a great idea I love you know especially
um to expand on your idea of you know connecting with people that have written the same foils
you know maybe when when you get the Induro 700 and you get a couple of rides on it like yeah

(01:49:02):
have another conversation about something like that then I'm gonna keep I'm still working on more
articles and more content and I would be happy to come back and have to collaborate with you anytime
yeah maybe every few months when we've accumulated enough time on gear and we have enough new things to
say about gear and yeah we can you can chat about it and yeah that would be really cool I like it

(01:49:30):
awesome well thank you thank you for your time yeah thank you too