December 16, 2024 • 60 mins
For the abstract artist, marks are a language – an expression of ideas. Father and daughter Gary Gregg and Daniela Minns have created new paintings that explore their respective ideas. But they’ve also become collaborators – co-creators in a series of experimental works. Like passing notes in class, the two artists have been swapping pieces of paper, making marks in response to the others. It’s a Conversation in Mark Making that continues a life-long dialogue between father and daughter.
That dialogue continues on ART CHAT.
Image: Gary Gregg, Infinite Possibilities (Slow Blues). Mixed media on canvas, 153 x 137cm, 2024. Image courtesy of the artist.
Gary Gregg and Daniela Minns’ exhibition GARY GREGG + DANIELA MINNS = CONVERSATIONS IN MARK MAKING is on at GALLERY LANE COVE + CREATIVE STUDIOS 4 - 21 December 2024
Opening Event: Wednesday 11 December 2024. 6-8pm.
CREDITS Presenter and Producer: Claudia Chan Shaw Production team: Cathie Campbell, Sheena Rees, Sasha Satz and Krista Teran. Executive Producer: Miguel Olmo
Brought to you by Gallery Lane Cove + Creative Studios
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Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
In my studio, I am chaotic, wild, free, loose, kind of crazy.
(00:12):
And when I actually find I paint best when I can access that part of me.
Hi everyone, welcome to Art Chat.
(00:34):
The podcast that takes you on a creative journey.
I'm your host Claudia Chan-Shaw.
So settle in and come along for the ride as we get chatty with artists.
Before we get started, we'd like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the lands
where we meet to produce this episode and power respects to the elders both past and present.
(00:57):
For the abstract artist, Marx are a language, an expression of ideas.
Father and daughter Gary Greg and Daniel are men, so created new paintings that explore their respective ideas.
But they've also become collaborators.
Co-creators in a series of experimental works, like passing notes in class.
(01:18):
The two artists have been swapping pieces of paper, making Marx in response to the others.
It's a conversation in Mark making that continues a lifelong dialogue between father and daughter.
And that dialogue continues on Art Chat.
Gary Greg and Daniel are men's, thank you so much for joining me.
Thank you Claudia.
Thank you Claudia.
(01:39):
Now you're both abstract artists and you didn't head off to art school.
Gary, you went into law, you're a barrister, and Daniela, you worked in magazines as a stylist and a writer,
and then an online entrepreneur.
I'm interested in the moment where you became aware that making art was really a part of you
and that it was something you needed to do.
(02:00):
So did you have an epiphany? Was there a moment or was it a gradual realisation?
Well, for my part, Art wasn't really part of my life growing up.
I was more interested in going and riding the surfboard down the beach
and it didn't pay a large part at school.
(02:24):
In my 20s, I started to become interested in art and fascinated with why some works of art worked in inverted commas
and I felt others didn't.
So it was almost an intellectual curiosity that led me down the path.
(02:47):
So I'd go to galleries and look, stand in front of paintings.
Why am I having a positive emotional response to this work and the one down the corridor just leaves me cold?
So there was no epiphany as such, but I was drawn in.
I was drawn in first of all from that curiosity and then it led me to wonder,
(03:12):
do you think you might have a crack at this?
What about you, Daniela?
For me, it was different in that I grew up with dad painting around me.
So I was exposed from a young age and probably resisted in some ways following in his footsteps for some reason.
I doubled in a lot of different creative pursuits, but I always felt that painting was dad's domain
(03:38):
and that he had it covered.
I suppose maybe I was resisting it in some way, picking up the paintbrush and finding my way to paint as a medium.
And eventually I just couldn't resist any longer.
So I got there.
(03:59):
It's interesting, isn't it?
Because I too come from an artistic background, a fashion background,
and I deliberately did not do fashion at college.
I grew up with fashion.
What do I do? I graduate and go into fashion.
Well, interestingly, none of the five of us children followed dad into the bar.
I think we all saw that that was a really difficult path as good as he is at it.
(04:25):
But I think I eventually decided art was the way to follow in his footsteps.
I think if I could add, the children grew up in a house that was full of, most of it mine, because I couldn't afford to buy very many other people's works.
But to them, it was perfectly natural to see me dragging a canvas down from the studio and propping it against the wall,
(04:54):
which I do and leave works in progress against the wall.
And they would come and look at them and we'd talk about it.
So all of them, Daniela and her siblings, of which there were four, all grew up in an environment where it was perfectly normal to look at art, to talk about art,
(05:18):
and three of the children, Daniela and her two brothers were all in the HSC Art Express.
And she's really the only one that's gone on in a serious way to pursue the passion of art.
One of my sons went to Kofa and he lasted a term and I remember him saying,
(05:42):
it's really not for me, Dad.
And I said, well, that's great because you've tried that.
No, you know.
Yeah.
What about you, Daniela?
What about you, Daniela, memories of that time of Dad painting when you're little?
Yeah.
Well, it was always a discussion and we always talked about the latest painting.
And I think children are incredibly honest and raw and unfiltered at times.
(06:07):
But they also have a way of seeing through the clutter and really connecting with abstract works in a way that I think sometimes adults struggle to.
And I think as an adult, I've only recently realised, really recently, in fact,
that not everyone understands the language of abstract works.
It is challenging for the average person.
(06:33):
I think it's probably one of the harder art forms to connect with.
If you don't have that language inherently inside of you, people will often say,
when they're looking at abstract work, well, what is it?
What does it mean?
Dad's always pushed back on that.
And even as children, we would try to grapple and say, oh, I see a horse.
I see a cloud and he'd say, no, no, no.
(06:55):
You don't, you don't, you think you see that.
That's not what it's about.
What's it making you feel? What's it making you think?
So I guess he always challenged us to really understand the real language of abstract art.
And they got it.
All of the children, they, they latched onto that.
Not immediately, but so Mike Paar said to me, abstract painting is painting at the limits of painting.
(07:25):
It's painting about painting.
And that fits with what Daniela just said.
Many people will want to see a tree or a house or something in an arrangement of marks,
because they don't have the background or the understanding of,
I don't want to be pejorative, but they just don't, they don't get it.
(07:49):
They don't get that it's not representational.
It makes them feel comfortable to connect with something for you.
Possibly, possibly.
And that's entirely valid.
I understand that.
Or they say, oh, I like that one because it's pink.
Pink is my favourite colour.
That's totally, totally great.
Whatever you can connect with is lovely.
Absolutely.
But I think that I take for granted that I grow up, much like a bilingual child takes for granted a second language,
(08:16):
I take for granted ability to connect and understand with abstract painting.
Gary, without formal training, so you're going to galleries on Saturday mornings.
And one of the galleries you frequented at the time was Sherman Galleries.
And a conversation with Jean Sherman is the beginning of a new chapter for you.
(08:37):
Yeah, it was my ritual of a Saturday afternoon to see the go to the key galleries in Sydney at the time.
And try and teach myself, try and learn about what was happening and how the artists were handling the paint.
And I'd always go to waters, I'd always go to Coventry, and I'd nearly always go to Sherman.
(09:00):
And Jean Sherman telephoned me one day and I was at work and was chatting to me about a painting by an artist that I now don't recall who it was.
But, you know, she was seeing if I had an interest in the painting.
And of course, I said to her, no, Jean, I said, I haven't got any money.
(09:27):
I've got five children, and Jean-Arrow, and the painting's interesting, but I'm not in a position to buy it.
And I said, one of these days I might show you one of mine, and I really wasn't thinking about it when I said it.
And she said, what do you mean, Gary? And I, do you paint? And I said, well, yeah, I do.
Well, I'm trying to. And she said, well, you've never mentioned that.
(09:52):
And I said, well, why would I? And spontaneously, to my complete astonishment, Jean said, Gary, I'd be happy to look at your work.
And I, of course, was stunned because not having been to art school, I didn't have the milieu.
(10:14):
I didn't have a group of friends and contacts that I'd been through art school with.
And it was one of the reasons why the children's feedback was important to me. Everybody likes feedback.
And the opportunity to have Jean look at my work, I thought, fabulous.
Did that scare you?
(10:35):
Well, a little. I remember the day. She said, well, it was Sherman High Grace Street at that time.
Good hope hadn't opened. And I remember taking the children's car seats out of the back of the four-wheel drive
and dropping the seats and loading up some canvases and works and driving in to Panington.
(10:59):
And the gallery manager said, well, you know, you can just lean them against the walls on the floor there.
And so my doors were interspersed amongst the current exhibition that was on.
And the punters were wandering around looking at the current exhibition and then wondering what was going on with these works, leaning against the wall.
(11:21):
So, yeah, it was a bit nerve-racking.
Dad, do you know you've just actually unlocked a memory for me, which is the day you were going?
Really?
Because I remember you were sitting in your living room with the paintings around you.
You must have been getting ready. And I would have been early teens at the time.
(11:42):
And I remember walking in and saying, what's wrong, Dad? And you were just so...
No, you were nervous. You were just genuinely...
Yeah, I was.
And fair enough too. And you said, I just don't know if I'm ready for anyone to see them.
What if she doesn't like them? And I remember just saying, well, Dad, they're great.
And if you don't show them, then what's the point? Like, you've got to get them out there.
(12:08):
And what have you got to lose, basically, in a naive sort of 13-year-old way?
And encouraging you. So that's actually so funny. I just remembered that.
That's great.
So what was Jean-Chairman's advice?
Jean was beautiful. And I'm so grateful to her because, because, you know, I'm so grateful to her.
(12:30):
Because I was lacking confidence. And Jean came down and she said, look, just sit there, Gary.
I'm just going to curate these a bit. I don't think she used that word.
And she started grabbing paintings and putting them into three groups.
And she said, after she'd done all that, she said, this group over here, not bad, I bet it's art school stuff.
(12:56):
And this group in the middle, yeah, it's okay too.
And, but you see, at that time, because I didn't have a style, I was teaching myself, I was painting still life.
I was painting landscape. I was painting nerds. I was painting abstract.
And probably the abstract work was numerically the least.
(13:18):
But she was attracted to the abstract work. And she said, look, this is really good.
She said, you've got something really going here that you're using space.
Well, you're using this movement in it and make a long story short over a couple of two.
She said, look, why don't you go away and paint for a year, but follow the abstract path.
(13:44):
And she said, I'll be happy to look at your work again in another year.
And that was incredibly supportive. It was really the first outside support from someone whose opinion I valued enormously.
And I was delighted to go down that path and it's been life changing.
(14:07):
So the great artists had mentors, Leonardo, Raphael, Jackson Pollock.
And Gary, you've been fortunate to have had some wonderful advice and support and friendship from many luminaries in the art world.
So who else has been supportive of that early career?
Well, I have to mention Jean again, because in a year's time or so, she looked at, and I painted like a maniac for a year, but abstract.
(14:34):
And the work was going recently, well, I thought, and she really liked the work.
And she said, Gary, what do you want to do with this?
Like, you're at the bar, you've got all these children referred to the collection.
You have mouths to feed.
Yeah, you've got all these children. And what do you want to do with this?
(14:55):
And I said to her, look, Jean, it's my personality that whatever I do, I have to do it as well as I can.
And I don't know where this is going to elude me. I really don't.
I'm having fun, I'm passionate about it.
And she said, well, I think you need to show.
And I just was a bit stunned. And she said, I can't show you. Straight up.
(15:21):
She said, we only show mid-career, late-career artists. We don't show emerging artists.
But I've got one or two galleries in mind that I'm happy to speak to.
And she did. And one of them was Crawford Gallery, which was then in Liverpool, straight, E. Sydney.
And I went along by appointment. And the director of the gallery looked at the work.
(15:49):
And I had modest hopes that they might like the work enough to put me one painting in a group show.
And they offered me a solo show on the spot.
So that was 1995.
And I had solo shows there in 1995, 1996, 97, as well as various group shows.
(16:12):
And the kids had all come along to the openings.
And I've got photos of little children sitting on the steps, bleary eyed, at eight o'clock.
I got night wanting to go home and sick of the whole thing.
But at that time, and I'm sorry it's taken me a while to get to it,
I'd met Ewan McCloud socially. And Ewan is not only a great painter, but he's a lovely person.
(16:36):
And Ewan understood, I think, intuitively what I was going through, and probably my lack of confidence
and being tentative about what was going on.
And he would come to my show as he came to all the shows at Crawford Gallery.
And subsequently, and we'd look at the work and we'd go and sit in the pub or go and have a bowl of soup or something.
(17:04):
And just talk. And that was, it wasn't telling me what to do.
But we'd just talk as artists to our artists. And that was very, really helpful, really, really helpful.
So I'm very grateful to you and Ewan's a friend. And subsequently, he paid me a fantastic compliment
(17:26):
because subsequently, when I was showing at Jenny Coventeries Gallery in Pennington,
he liked one of the paintings I had in his show. And he offered to do a swap, which is a great compliment
from another artist who you respect. And so we swapped. And I've got two lovely little early Ewan with cloud oils on
(17:49):
paper mounted on canvas at home. He's got a painting of mine.
You mentioned Jenny Coventeries. Now, there was a legend.
Jenny Coventeries has been described in writing, so Angus can't get away from it.
Angus Nivecen, who was close to Jenny, and who's also a friend and a fantastic painter, an abstract painter, of course,
(18:15):
described Jenny as brutally honest. And I think with respect to Gus, that's probably a bit of an understatement.
And Jenny was, to those that remember, and many, many people will, a bit of a legend in the Sydney art scene.
He, without going through his whole biography, but some high points where he was involved with Gallery A, a pivotal gallery in Sydney in the modernist phase.
(18:48):
He was one of the financiers of Christos, rapping at Little Bay, along with others like John Kaldor.
And he had the Coventry Gallery there in Sutherland Street at Paddington. And he was known as having a fantastic eye.
(19:09):
And he had a great eye. So, but he was very, on a personal level, he was very intimidating.
And Jenny had had a stroke and was in a wheelchair and was very gruff.
And he actually liked the painting that most you'd get out of, Jenny was, I don't mind that one. That was it. That was high praise.
(19:30):
So, yeah, and I, I left Crawford Gallery and Centre CV along the Coventry, which was dutifully ignored.
I spoke to Brian, who was the Gallery Manager and, and Jenny's friend, and, um, it's totally my centre CV in.
(19:53):
And he said, oh, there's a whole pile of them downstairs. In other looks at that. Why don't you come along to the opening this week?
And, and he said, I'll introduce you. So, I went along and, and introduced me.
And then Brian disappeared and it, Jenny looked at me, skipped it, Glenn. I said, Jenny, I'd be grateful if, um, you would look at my work.
(20:15):
And he just sat there. He disappeared at me with a sort of grim face. And he said, I might tell you it's a lot of shit.
I said, well, you're mine. But that's the, that's the risk that we've got to take.
And it must have been the right answer because he said, all right, go and make an appointment with Brian and, and, and I did and, uh, later on, um, back in the four wheel drive with the children's seats out, the paintings went in different paintings, of course, down the track.
(20:46):
And he looked at the paintings and I got a couple of I don't mind that one's and that's all right. And, uh, he said to me, where are your drawings?
And, uh, Claudia, at that point, I was, um, you know, running the day job, um, heavily involved with my children and my beautiful wife and, um, coaching football teams and there weren't enough hours in the day.
(21:13):
And, and, and drawing wasn't a big part of the, my process at that stage. But I said, I didn't bring any. I haven't been doing it much drawing any, any way.
And he went, huh, he said, I'm not, not make up a mind about you till I see your drawings. And he said, go away and, um, come back in a couple of months and bring drawings.
(21:36):
I said, okay, sure, sure. And then he looked at me and he said, and don't call them. I said, right. And there was something in the way he said that, that I didn't really get it.
But I knew he was serious about that. So I went away and, um, at that stage, I was, uh, do you remember Daniel or I was painting? We had an old external laundry in the backyard. And it was pretty small. It was a laundry. And that was my studio.
(22:09):
And, um, I'd have to go out into the backyard to get any length that looked at the painting in the corner of the laundry. And I was dragging paintings out in the backyard. If it was a sunny day, I was happy.
And, um, he, um, I went back with drawings having, with the blessing of my lovely wife, Marisa, um, turned over her dining room into a drawing studio for two months.
(22:38):
So I think I had about 55, um, drawings. And they were all, um, 300 gram, um, 76 by 56 watercolor paper, heavy paper. And they were all sorts of, they were all abstract, but there was, you know, ink and charcoal and paint and marks and pencil and, and all different things. And, and, and I was getting ready to go and take them to Coventry.
(23:04):
And I thought about what he said, don't call them. And there were some failures there. Of course there were. There were a number of failures. And I was very tempted to take them out of the pile. But I didn't, and I didn't realize that that was a very significant moment. I didn't realize at that time.
And what was his response?
Well, when I got to Coventry Gallery, it was, um, it was late January, um, 98. And they were getting ready for what was called the Diary Show. And the Diary Show was, was a taster that Coventry ran every year.
(23:42):
Um, where the artists who were due to have solo shows that year would have a couple of works in the Diary Show so that the patron to the gallery could come along and get a feeling for what was going to be exhibited on a bigger scale in the year.
So there were people, artists there, other artists and people coming and going with paintings and it was a bit chaotic and he spotted me. I walked in the gallery with the portfolio and he spotted me and they were like,
(24:08):
what do you got? What do you got? And I said, okay, you know, and he's in the wheelchair. So the only way I could show him the, the, the paintings was to get down on one knee like a sort of supplicant, you know, which was not all that comfortable to start with.
And I opened the portfolio and there was the 55 drawings and, and I turned, he didn't say work. I turned over the first one. He just leaned on his stick. He leaned forward in the wheelchair on his stick.
(24:34):
And those that know him will remember that gesture. And he just looked, he just watched. And I allowed a few seconds, man, you know, not a lot of time.
And I turned them over and we got to about 40 out of 55 and he hadn't said a word.
And we got to somewhere in the 40s and he said, put that one over there. It's the first thing he'd said.
(24:59):
And I put the drawing and he met on the floor beside him across and I put the drawing there. And I kept going and put that one over there and so on.
And we got to, by the time we got to 55, I think there were, you know, maybe four drawings over there. And then I didn't know what to think.
(25:21):
He went through the, the whole pile of drawings three times. And by the end of that process, there were, you know, ten or twelve drawings on the floor.
And I must have looked at complete wreck because Brian looked at me and he looked at Channy and he said, tell Gary what's going on, Channy, because no one was telling me anything.
(25:48):
And he said, and Channy said to Brian, those three, what do you reckon, those three? And I didn't know what they were talking about.
And he, and Brian said, for the diary show, he said, we'll put them in the diary show. And I thought, oh, and he said, those paintings, he said, I want that grey one.
(26:11):
I thought that grey one. I said, oh, yeah, I can bring that. And he said, I want that, I want that other one that had some red and some midtones and some other colours in it.
I said, I can't bring that one. He said, why not? And I said, I've sold it. And he, he sat up sharply in the wheelchair and he said, what?
(26:33):
And I said, Channy, he hadn't taken me on. Someone saw it, wanted to buy it and I sold it. He said, all right, you got that blue, bluey one. I said, yeah, I got that.
Anyway, we had the diary show and one of the two big paintings sold and two of the three drawings sold. And I was on for a solo show that year.
(26:57):
Extraordinary, absolutely extraordinary. So this has got to give you a lot of confidence. These are important people in the art world, not only in Sydney, but in Australia, giving you a tick of approval.
Well, the answer to the short answer, Cordy, was yes. I thought it was a very significant moment. And, I mean, commentary gallery at that time, first of all, you've got Channy who was so well respected.
(27:28):
And it was no one. If Channy took you on, there was something. You had something, right? The artists who were showing with him at the time, I mean, he had a fantastic stable. He had Sue Archer.
Tim Allen was just out of art school, but painting really strongly. Angus Niveson, who I've mentioned, I eat a Tamescue. John Churia, the sculptor from Newcastle, who's a great artist.
(27:58):
Stephen Harvey and others like Peter Sharp and Mike Nichols from Melbourne would have work occasionally. So it was a problem with Bankroft and there are others, and I apologise to any I've left out. But it was a really strong stable. So yes, to go there and be put in a group show, and then a solo show straight away was amazing. And it really did help my confidence.
(28:26):
So to give you even more confidence, you're a finalist in the win prize in 1999.
I think for those reasons, it freed me up. And when you're tentative and when you're lacking confidence, you don't paint freely.
When you start to believe in yourself and when others show a vote of confidence in you, and you start to have some tentative, a bit stronger belief in yourself, it does feed into the painting.
(29:00):
And you do start painting with, you take more risks, you stop worrying about the process and you just let it flow.
And I was lucky enough and I think most artists believe the prizes are a bit of a lottery. But yes, I was hung in the win prize. And again, that fed in, that was fantastic. I was absolutely thrilled.
(29:25):
And at the win prize, you meet John Pitt.
I did. And John Pitt was a very important, very skilled abstract painter, not just abstract, because he would end up the archer ball as well. He could paint really well figuratively.
(29:47):
But he was primarily an abstract painter. And I would always go to a John Pitt. I'd never meet him. But as luck would have it.
And I believe that was my great good fortune. Those, the powers that be hung my painting next to John's and mine, I think, was about a five foot by four.
(30:13):
And his was about ten or twelve foot long. And we went to the artist's sandwich lunch the day before the official opening, which I didn't even know existed. And met John. And when we were looking at the work, and we were talking.
There was an issue with the stretcher, and I was helping with the stretcher. And then towards the end of that, he said, do you want to go and have a coffee in the Art Gallery coffee shop? I said, yep.
(30:45):
We sat there till it closed. And we became, you know, you clicked with people. And John and I became almost instant friends. And for the next thirteen, fourteen years, till his sad demise, we were close friends.
And he was very important, very important. That friendship was very important to me.
(31:09):
Daniella, you're watching all of this go on. And you've been pushing back. I don't want to do what he's doing.
When was the real moment for you?
I also just didn't have time to do what he was doing. I had young children. I was running a business. And then I sold that business.
My third child was born, and it was about twelve months later. He was one. And I thought, I need something that's mine, that I need to carve out time for myself.
(31:39):
And I tried a few different things as you do, yoga and whatnot. And then I just found myself, I couldn't fight it anymore. I just suddenly realised I needed to paint.
It was very much just a meditative thing for me. I was really just, in fact, I think I started with some of my children's tools. So, you know, really, just a kid's canvas and little brushes.
(32:04):
Yeah, exactly, exactly. Certainly with no bigger picture in mind. But I realised that when I was in that state of flow, there was something very meditative about it. And it was doing me good. And I was enjoying it.
And then I suppose I took the big step of, you know, Dad's big step was showing Jen Sherman. Well, for me, it was showing Dad. Sorry.
(32:30):
So, showing him was a big step. And he was very encouraging, as he has been for the past ten years. Very encouraging, very generous with advice and support.
And even art materials, actually, upgraded me from the children's paints and paint brushes and got me all kitted out. I think actually Dad, you gave me a suitcase, an artist's suitcase of basic colours that you said were important.
(33:01):
And here I was saying it was all just primary colours. And you were giving me, you know, red oak, or an Indian yellow and Payne's grey.
And so this was, I guess, a bit of a nod to me to have some confidence and forge ahead. And so I did.
And you sprang into abstract work. You didn't want to do anything figurative. Was it because it's so physically gestural and involving and it really involves your whole body to work like that?
(33:34):
Yes. Yeah, I think you're right, Claudia. I think it was, I needed a release. It wasn't about, you know, being a mother and creating a space for myself and letting all those, yes, daily frustrations and, you know, abstract painting can be about emotions. It very often is.
And so putting those emotions on canvas was incredibly therapeutic for me. And then I saw that beyond that, there was more to it than just pure emotion and colour.
(34:04):
And that's, I guess, where I've landed today. Do you consider Gary your mentor? Oh, he's definitely a mentor, yeah.
He's always been hugely supportive of me painting and probably even when, you know, early on I didn't deserve it. But yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
(34:26):
It's a tough gig.
Yeah, it is a tough gig.
It's a tough gig.
It is a tough gig.
No, this isn't the first time you've exhibited together. You showed at Tatasil's club in 2016. Tell me about that experience.
Well, Tatasil's club have several ponies of mine in their collection. And the club approached me and said, would I invite me to have an exhibition in the club?
(34:56):
And I said, well, that'd be lovely. But I'd like my daughter to exhibit with me. I'd like it to be a two-hander. And they said, well, don't know about that.
We know your work, but you have to send some images. So I did. And as soon as they saw Daniela's work, of course, they said absolutely. We can do a two-hander for you.
(35:20):
And I was very resistant to that, actually. I didn't think I was ready at all. So Dad encouraged me and said, no, no, you're ready.
Is it encouraged me in push?
Yeah, it does, actually.
Good job.
I had to push her a bit. I mean, look, Daniela said, I don't think I'm ready, Dad. You go ahead. You have the show. It'll be great.
And I said, no, you're ready. You are ready. I've been looking at your work. You're ready. And it's an important part as Daniela alluded to earlier.
(35:52):
It's an important thing to show your work. Not to sell it. I mean, selling's a great compliment that somebody puts their hand in their pocket, wants your work.
They want it in their life. They want to live with it. But showing's exhibiting is showing. Showing is about getting your work out there,
(36:13):
letting people who are interested in your work or follow your work see what you've been up to recently. That's important.
People who don't know your work get a chance to see your work. That's important. But as commentary said to me,
I wanted to hear on a Saturday. And I said to Miguel Olmo, our curator, wonderful curator at Gary Lang Cave, that Chaney insisted that his artists be in the gallery on a Saturday.
(36:45):
And he said to me, not to sell. I don't want you trying to sell the work. That's not your job. It's our job.
But I want you there because this is really the only chance you're going to have to see all the work hung together in the one space.
And you'll have time to look at your work and think about where you've come from and where maybe you get an idea where you want to go to.
(37:11):
And that is an important part of exhibiting. It's as important as all the other aspects.
And Daniela, was that the big confidence boost you needed?
I think Dad's always said to me, painting is a confidence game. And I think...
He doesn't mean it's a con.
No, no, it doesn't mean it's a con.
No, no, no, confidence. You've got to have confidence. And I think if anything, abstract art might ask that of you more than any other type of painting, you really have to be confident within yourself.
(37:41):
But when you're hanging, when you're exhibiting and showing people that there's something very personal about painting and you put so much of yourself into it, any creative pursuit really.
Of course, it's a part of you and you're putting it out to the world. And that's really scary.
It's unlike anything else. And so I think taking that step, I remember the opening and I remember being absolutely petrified.
(38:09):
I'm probably down to a couple of champagne's very quickly upon entry. And then people start responding and looking and asking questions and you relax and think, okay, I think they're getting it.
You made a connection.
It was just wonderful. Because my followers came along and they were buying Daniela's work and I'm buying my work.
(38:34):
And Daniela's followers came along and some of them bought my work. Some of them bought Daniela's work. And it was just a really joyous event.
Daniela, you moved to Amsterdam with your family for two years. And you said that living overseas was the scariest and most incredible thing you've ever done.
So what was your experience in Amsterdam?
(38:58):
I never thought that I would live overseas. It was something that came up and opportunity through my husband's work. And we had three small children at the time.
It seemed like the craziest wildest thing to do. And a country that I'd never been to. I'd never been to the Netherlands. I knew very little about Amsterdam.
So it was definitely jumping in the deep end. And it was scary. But it was also really liberating being in a place where no one knew you.
(39:25):
And where you could, I just did such different things. I said yes to everything. I forged a beautiful community of people.
And it was just a really, like a rebirth thing really. I didn't paint a lot over there. But what I did paint, I think, was on a different level. Dad certainly seemed to think so when he came to visit.
(39:51):
I unlocked something. I think I lost a lot of fear. I thought well, if you can move to the other side of the world, maybe you can.
You got this. Yeah, yeah.
Well painting and exhibiting in Amsterdam, was that the turning point for your work?
Possibly. Yeah. I think it was a bit.
Well I know when Marissa and I went to Amsterdam, it was 2007. Danielle and I had a little studio at the top of the Terrace House that they were living in.
(40:19):
And I was just knocked out. I was literally knocked out by the quality of the work. She'd definitely gone to the next level.
And she was handling colour beautifully. And there were some beautiful paintings on the wall. I wanted to grab them and take them out.
Maybe it was being somewhere where literally no one was seeing what I was doing. So there was no judgment. There was no, you know, I didn't have a gallery.
(40:46):
I was showing maybe just some close friends and I was really pushing some different limits.
We had salon shows. Yes, we did meet some other artists and we had some small salon shows in Amsterdam, which was exciting.
Do you think in some strange psychological perverse way, because you were totally removed from Australia and removed from your family, that you could blossom because there was nothing to compare you to?
(41:11):
Maybe. I mean I think I was still wanting to send dad images and things, but I think it was more that I proved to myself, well, you know, moved a family of five to the other side of the world, got nothing to lose.
It'd be like what I said to dad when he was going to see Jane Sherman, got nothing to lose now. Just keep going.
So your career is on the ascent. You're a finalist in the Little Things Art Prize at St. Cloche Gallery in Paddington, the White Hawk Gallery, 30 by 30 Art Show, the Palette Project Prize in Gallery, Alkameen, Milton.
(41:44):
And now you've both come together again. Gary Greg and Daniel Amin's conversations in Markmaking. It's on now at Gallery Lankove and Creative Studios and it's on till the 21st of December.
So we've got these artistic collaboration with two like-minded souls, you're like Gilbert and George or Christo and Jean-Claude or Warhol and Baskia, and it's like this delightful choreography between two artists is dance.
(42:13):
So tell me about the collaboration conversation in Markmaking.
So the paintings are both dad and mine, but not collaborative, but we decided it would be interesting to do a drawing project together.
And we'd started that before there was any talk of an exhibition. We started the drawing project just for our own interest.
(42:39):
So I kind of came from, I actually asked dad when my eldest was three years old to come to the local preschool where she attended, and I said, it'd be really nice dad if he came and did a little art chat with the children.
And he said, well, what should I do with them? Because I can't just chat at them, they're going to glaze over as three-year-olds do.
And I said, well, let's try and think of something that you could do with them. So he said, well, why didn't I talk to them about Markmaking?
(43:04):
You know, dad's always talked about Markmaking as an abstract artist, it's very important.
And so he had this big sheet of white paper in front of the children on an easel, and he said, now, if I put a black mark here, and then I add some pencil, and he sort of just talked to them about this notion of marks.
(43:27):
And we decided, well, it'd be nice if the children could have a turn of their own once they've seen what dad's talking about, and he'd talked to them about the concept of abstract art as well.
And then they had a go, and we decided to just put them in pairs. So they were doing their little marks, and we kept talking to them about restraint, because...
(43:49):
They had to take turns. It's hard for a four-year-old to take turns, but the art teachers, we discussed it with them first, and they were very enthusiastic about it.
So we had the children set up with one piece of paper between two children, and the child A would make a mark, and then have to hand the paper over across the child B, who'd make another mark.
(44:15):
And the mark could be charcoal, or paint, or whatever. And then you could see their little faces, and to have someone else's mark come across to them, and then they had to evaluate that, and they were doing it.
And they were thinking about, well, what am I going to do? What am I going to do now? And that's really what became our idea.
(44:36):
And the results were incredible. It wasn't like a Mr. Squiggle thing, where one line went down and the other one tried to turn it into a house. They really got the concept, and they created some really beautiful work. So that was many years ago.
And then we sort of returned to this idea more recently between the two of us, and had this idea to speak to each other through marks, on paper, through a project that we then took to Miguel at the Gallery, at Gallery Lancove, as a concept.
(45:07):
We'd already started the project, actually. It was in its early stages, and we thought it was interesting, and we were enjoying doing it.
So we'd just swapped portfolios. Daniela in her studio, me and mine, she had three or so bundles of paper of different sizes and weights, and I had the same.
(45:28):
And then we made initial marks on each, and then we swapped the portfolios, and then so Daniela was confronted with my marks, my first intervention.
I was confronted with her first intervention, and that was, and so that went on through the process, but it did give rise to a few funny moments.
(45:49):
So was it a free-flying conversation, or did you necessarily agree on the other's contribution?
Well, there was almost no verbal conversation. It was, the conversation was literally in the mark, but I do recall one verbal conversation.
Well, like any conversation, you have to leave space for the other person to speak. And so, you know, there were some exchanges where I felt that Dad had left no space for me to speak.
(46:23):
And one was when he decided to collage, you know, the wrapping of a tea bag onto one of the pieces, and I called him and said, well, you've basically given me the conversational mic drop, where I've got nowhere to go after this.
And can we agree that maybe don't put tea bags onto the project? But we did have Dad had a set of rules and guidelines.
(46:49):
So, what's your say? Oh, you killed it, I said. You killed it. You just killed it, drawing with the tea bag.
So we had probably more than 100 pieces of paper flying between our studios, and, you know, we had these beautiful big folios that Dad had put the papers into, and we'd thrust them at each other at Family Birthday.
Kate, get together. So, here you go. Off you go. Give me one back.
(47:12):
You owe me a portfolio. I'm sorry. I haven't got to it. I'm a painting, and I'll get to it.
And so it was interesting. I think the ones, you know, we certainly called them for exhibition with the help of Miguel curating them, because there were some that clearly just didn't work, that we'd sort of almost shouted at each other over.
(47:33):
And actually it was interesting. Sometimes I'd put a mark down, and I'd not realise, but I was being very leading. Like I wanted him to do.
I could picture the next movement, because that's what I would do. And it would come back to me, and I'd think, oh, you didn't do it right. What did you do?
It's lots and crosses. It's not so, yeah, yeah. So, look, it was a very interesting exercise. I think we learned a lot about each other.
(47:57):
I think we learned a lot about mark making through it. And at the end of the day, what I can say is that we were in very firm agreement on which ones worked, which ones were, as I said, dead and ready.
And ready for the scrap heap. And also, funnily enough, we never, we said that orientation would be decided right at the end. And we were very infirmary agreements on which was, what was the orientation.
(48:22):
And then we signed off on them all. So, yeah.
Yeah, it was fabulous. It was so much fun. And the works were very happy with the work. And I'd just, Daniel, I'm mentioning Cole.
Could I just return briefly?
Commentaries said to me about a year later, he said, you know, if you'd culled those drawings you brought me, he said, I wouldn't have touched you.
(48:46):
And I said, what do you mean? He said, I wouldn't have touched you. He said, because I can tell as much about a painter from, or a drawer or an artist from their failures as I can from the ones that succeeded.
The question that every artist grapples with is, when is a piece of art finished? And you've got two creatives working on and artwork here. So when do you stop? And was that always a mutual decision?
(49:14):
Pretty mutual. Yeah. We actually didn't have any disagreements on that. And in fact, some of them were done after one swap. You know, one, one pass from, yes, from each person.
And then others took, you know, four swaps. And even in gallery when we were putting them together and deciding which ones would actually be shown, there were a couple that we said, oh, there's just a bit more that needs to happen here.
(49:43):
So we actually made marks in gallery as well. Oh, the conversation kept going.
Then Yola, in the exhibition, one of your artworks is entitled, Courage, Dear Heart. Why is that piece so special to you?
So I think, like we talked earlier, confidence is incredibly important as an artist, as a creative. And I maybe last year was feeling a bit flash in that department.
(50:11):
And was a bit, yeah, I needed to bolster myself. And I started by sort of giving myself a mantra for the year for my work in the studio.
And I just took a big sheet of brown paper and some black ink and wrote for myself Courage, Dear Heart, which is a quote from the CS Lewis book, The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe.
(50:35):
And it just really spoke to me because you have to have Courage when you're doing something scary. And I liked the Dear Heart part because it felt kind and gentle. And I needed kind and gentle.
And I just, every time I walk into my studio, it's literally at the top of my painting wall. And I'm always working underneath it. And it's guiding me. And I just decided to incorporate it into that work.
(50:58):
It does take Courage to be an artist. Henri Matisse agreed with you. He said creativity takes Courage because you're always putting yourself out there. And if I can quote another great artist, Ed Wood Hopper said, if I could say it in words, there would be no reason to paint.
Is that the way you both feel?
Yeah, it's definitely a different part of me that painting unlocks. And in fact, you can see it from walking into the studio. I'm a different person in the studio.
(51:27):
You know, in, I have a backyard studio. I'm very lucky to have a space at home. And in my home, I'm fairly ordered. I'm organized, fairly neat.
You know, don't run a tight ship as such. But you know, I have three children. It's a busy house. I've got to keep on top of things. In my studio, I am chaotic, wild, free, loose, kind of crazy.
(51:54):
And when I actually find I paint best when I can access that part of me. So, yeah. It's what about you, Dad?
Well, the, the, being in the studio is, is, is a wonderful time. And, and painting and, and making art satisfies a need in me that nothing else can. It's, it occupies a space in my life that's an important space.
(52:19):
Speaking of spaces, I too now have a backyard studio that I have enjoyment in sitting in with my cup of green tea and staring at what I'm doing.
Staring at what's on the wall. I privilege to, through the generosity of my dear, dear friends, Alan and Jan Rees, to work in Lloyd, the Lloyd Rees studio in Northwood, which is just up the road.
(52:48):
And as it turned out, I, I worked in that space for 20 years. And, and the children had come up when they were little and find me in the studio.
And the neighbours had seen it at a large canvas with a pair of legs moving down the street back to our place. And that was, that was very significant.
(53:12):
And not just the space, but the friendship and support that Alan and Jan offered me was very significant in my, my development and the confidence they had in me.
And I, I went up to tell them that commentary had taken me on and Bill Pigeon, who was, had passed, was the, was a cartoonist for the city morning.
(53:39):
In fact, before my time, but I was aware of him and his widow lived in the neighbourhood. And I asked Alan and Jan could they introduce me to her because I was interested to rent Bill Pigeon's old studio because I knew I had to get out of the laundry.
And, and as loving people, married people of, of some duration, they are intuitive. They almost read each other's minds.
(54:06):
And when I asked them about Bill Pigeon, they, the two of them looked at each other and I still remember it.
And Alan said, we've got a better idea Gary, had you liked the work in Dad's studio? And I couldn't believe it. I couldn't believe it.
So I, I, I'm blessed, I am fortunate and I'm forever grateful to them for that because it, it played a huge part. I had a space. It was, it was near to home. And the fan, it wasn't away from the family. They could find me.
(54:37):
Yeah. Yes, we'd have to come and get you for dinner. Yeah, because we, it was, it was before and on the cusp of mobile phones and the kids.
And the great man painted there. You were in the space. Absolutely. And, and I remember when I'm, you might recall there was a, there was a push to turn the house into a museum and they didn't want that.
(54:59):
They didn't want to Brett Watley's studio. So set up. And when I moved in and they came down and they said, Oh, we just are so happy to have a painter work in this space.
And I said, but I'm a bit worried, Alan, because you know, your dad was an easel painter, essentially. And I'm going to make a mess. I'm, I'm playing abstract.
(55:23):
And he said, don't worry about that. He said the last bloke in here was pretty messy. And that sums them up, really.
Do you think there are any similarities in your work?
The two of us. Daniela and I.
Well, we're both, we're both working in an abstract language, but I don't know. There may be some superficial similarities.
(55:50):
I mean, there's a limited range of marks, the language of, of marks that are abstract artists employ line, different kinds of line, depth, color, movement.
But I think that if you go into our show now, please do it at Gary Langkove.
(56:15):
It's not hard to work out that there are two distinct styles going on. Would you agree?
Yeah, I think, I think I have been definitely influenced by you. That's, you know, absolutely.
But I think, yeah, and inspired by your real intuitive love and respect for the surface and, and how you work the surface and, and using those marks.
(56:47):
And, and I think you're restraint. I think I've definitely probably learnt to be more restrained and less obvious with what I'm trying to say.
So yeah, I would say you've definitely, you've definitely influenced me and, and maybe pushed me to think further than obvious.
(57:09):
You know, I think early on I was using color and in a way that was maybe more obvious and I think that my work's matured.
Well, thank you, darling. That's lovely.
Gary, you have five children and you're close to all of them, but you and Daniela are really speaking the same language.
And as a father and as a fellow artist and a friend, how did you feel walking into Gallery Langkove and seeing both of your work on display?
(57:36):
The best part, the best part was seeing Daniela's work in a really good space. Beautifully hung, beautifully led.
And it was, for me, it was the best part. I mean, my work looks terrific. I'm thrilled with the way it looks, but I was so thrilled for her.
(57:59):
Really.
And Daniela, for you, when you see the work hung, Gallery Langkove, it's looking great on the walls.
What were you thinking when you looked at it?
I think they take on a life of their own when they're hung in a space like that and it is a beautiful space.
Yeah, it's like you're pushing, I guess, the cliche is putting your children out into the world.
(58:25):
But it is a bit like that. There's no really better way to say it.
It's been said that a good conversation is a work of art with more than one creator.
And the results of this artistic dialogue are not only beautiful pieces of work that are honest and true,
but they're honest and true because they're created from the heart.
And this is a conversation with integrity and respect. And there's also the playfulness that comes from familiarity.
(58:52):
Gary Gregg, Daniela Minz, thank you so much for joining me on ArtChat.
Thank you, Claudia.
Thank you so much, Claudia.
The exhibition is Gary Gregg and Daniela Minz, Conversations in Mark Making.
It's on now at Gallery Lane Cove and Creative Studios and runs until the 21st of December.
(59:14):
ArtChat is produced by Gallery Lane Cove and Creative Studios,
situated on the lands of the gay marigal people.
Gallery Lane Cove receives financial assistance from Lane Cove Council and supporters, like yourself.
This episode of ArtChat is presented and produced by me, Claudia Chan-Shore.
And our production team includes Krista Teren, Sheena Reese, Sasha Satz, Cathy Campbell.
(59:37):
Miguel Olmo is our executive producer.
You can follow us or subscribe on your favourite streaming platform.
Thanks so much for joining us and we'll catch you next time on ArtChat.
In my studio, I am chaotic, wild, free, loose, kind of crazy.
(00:12):
And when I actually find I paint best when I can access that part of me.
Hi everyone, welcome to Art Chat.
(00:34):
The podcast that takes you on a creative journey.
I'm your host Claudia Chan-Shaw.
So settle in and come along for the ride as we get chatty with artists.
Before we get started, we'd like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the lands
where we meet to produce this episode and power respects to the elders both past and present.
(00:57):
For the abstract artist, Marx are a language, an expression of ideas.
Father and daughter Gary Greg and Daniel are men, so created new paintings that explore their respective ideas.
But they've also become collaborators.
Co-creators in a series of experimental works, like passing notes in class.
(01:18):
The two artists have been swapping pieces of paper, making Marx in response to the others.
It's a conversation in Mark making that continues a lifelong dialogue between father and daughter.
And that dialogue continues on Art Chat.
Gary Greg and Daniel are men's, thank you so much for joining me.
Thank you Claudia.
Thank you Claudia.
(01:39):
Now you're both abstract artists and you didn't head off to art school.
Gary, you went into law, you're a barrister, and Daniela, you worked in magazines as a stylist and a writer,
and then an online entrepreneur.
I'm interested in the moment where you became aware that making art was really a part of you
and that it was something you needed to do.
(02:00):
So did you have an epiphany? Was there a moment or was it a gradual realisation?
Well, for my part, Art wasn't really part of my life growing up.
I was more interested in going and riding the surfboard down the beach
and it didn't pay a large part at school.
(02:24):
In my 20s, I started to become interested in art and fascinated with why some works of art worked in inverted commas
and I felt others didn't.
So it was almost an intellectual curiosity that led me down the path.
(02:47):
So I'd go to galleries and look, stand in front of paintings.
Why am I having a positive emotional response to this work and the one down the corridor just leaves me cold?
So there was no epiphany as such, but I was drawn in.
I was drawn in first of all from that curiosity and then it led me to wonder,
(03:12):
do you think you might have a crack at this?
What about you, Daniela?
For me, it was different in that I grew up with dad painting around me.
So I was exposed from a young age and probably resisted in some ways following in his footsteps for some reason.
I doubled in a lot of different creative pursuits, but I always felt that painting was dad's domain
(03:38):
and that he had it covered.
I suppose maybe I was resisting it in some way, picking up the paintbrush and finding my way to paint as a medium.
And eventually I just couldn't resist any longer.
So I got there.
(03:59):
It's interesting, isn't it?
Because I too come from an artistic background, a fashion background,
and I deliberately did not do fashion at college.
I grew up with fashion.
What do I do? I graduate and go into fashion.
Well, interestingly, none of the five of us children followed dad into the bar.
I think we all saw that that was a really difficult path as good as he is at it.
(04:25):
But I think I eventually decided art was the way to follow in his footsteps.
I think if I could add, the children grew up in a house that was full of, most of it mine, because I couldn't afford to buy very many other people's works.
But to them, it was perfectly natural to see me dragging a canvas down from the studio and propping it against the wall,
(04:54):
which I do and leave works in progress against the wall.
And they would come and look at them and we'd talk about it.
So all of them, Daniela and her siblings, of which there were four, all grew up in an environment where it was perfectly normal to look at art, to talk about art,
(05:18):
and three of the children, Daniela and her two brothers were all in the HSC Art Express.
And she's really the only one that's gone on in a serious way to pursue the passion of art.
One of my sons went to Kofa and he lasted a term and I remember him saying,
(05:42):
it's really not for me, Dad.
And I said, well, that's great because you've tried that.
No, you know.
Yeah.
What about you, Daniela?
What about you, Daniela, memories of that time of Dad painting when you're little?
Yeah.
Well, it was always a discussion and we always talked about the latest painting.
And I think children are incredibly honest and raw and unfiltered at times.
(06:07):
But they also have a way of seeing through the clutter and really connecting with abstract works in a way that I think sometimes adults struggle to.
And I think as an adult, I've only recently realised, really recently, in fact,
that not everyone understands the language of abstract works.
It is challenging for the average person.
(06:33):
I think it's probably one of the harder art forms to connect with.
If you don't have that language inherently inside of you, people will often say,
when they're looking at abstract work, well, what is it?
What does it mean?
Dad's always pushed back on that.
And even as children, we would try to grapple and say, oh, I see a horse.
I see a cloud and he'd say, no, no, no.
(06:55):
You don't, you don't, you think you see that.
That's not what it's about.
What's it making you feel? What's it making you think?
So I guess he always challenged us to really understand the real language of abstract art.
And they got it.
All of the children, they, they latched onto that.
Not immediately, but so Mike Paar said to me, abstract painting is painting at the limits of painting.
(07:25):
It's painting about painting.
And that fits with what Daniela just said.
Many people will want to see a tree or a house or something in an arrangement of marks,
because they don't have the background or the understanding of,
I don't want to be pejorative, but they just don't, they don't get it.
(07:49):
They don't get that it's not representational.
It makes them feel comfortable to connect with something for you.
Possibly, possibly.
And that's entirely valid.
I understand that.
Or they say, oh, I like that one because it's pink.
Pink is my favourite colour.
That's totally, totally great.
Whatever you can connect with is lovely.
Absolutely.
But I think that I take for granted that I grow up, much like a bilingual child takes for granted a second language,
(08:16):
I take for granted ability to connect and understand with abstract painting.
Gary, without formal training, so you're going to galleries on Saturday mornings.
And one of the galleries you frequented at the time was Sherman Galleries.
And a conversation with Jean Sherman is the beginning of a new chapter for you.
(08:37):
Yeah, it was my ritual of a Saturday afternoon to see the go to the key galleries in Sydney at the time.
And try and teach myself, try and learn about what was happening and how the artists were handling the paint.
And I'd always go to waters, I'd always go to Coventry, and I'd nearly always go to Sherman.
(09:00):
And Jean Sherman telephoned me one day and I was at work and was chatting to me about a painting by an artist that I now don't recall who it was.
But, you know, she was seeing if I had an interest in the painting.
And of course, I said to her, no, Jean, I said, I haven't got any money.
(09:27):
I've got five children, and Jean-Arrow, and the painting's interesting, but I'm not in a position to buy it.
And I said, one of these days I might show you one of mine, and I really wasn't thinking about it when I said it.
And she said, what do you mean, Gary? And I, do you paint? And I said, well, yeah, I do.
Well, I'm trying to. And she said, well, you've never mentioned that.
(09:52):
And I said, well, why would I? And spontaneously, to my complete astonishment, Jean said, Gary, I'd be happy to look at your work.
And I, of course, was stunned because not having been to art school, I didn't have the milieu.
(10:14):
I didn't have a group of friends and contacts that I'd been through art school with.
And it was one of the reasons why the children's feedback was important to me. Everybody likes feedback.
And the opportunity to have Jean look at my work, I thought, fabulous.
Did that scare you?
(10:35):
Well, a little. I remember the day. She said, well, it was Sherman High Grace Street at that time.
Good hope hadn't opened. And I remember taking the children's car seats out of the back of the four-wheel drive
and dropping the seats and loading up some canvases and works and driving in to Panington.
(10:59):
And the gallery manager said, well, you know, you can just lean them against the walls on the floor there.
And so my doors were interspersed amongst the current exhibition that was on.
And the punters were wandering around looking at the current exhibition and then wondering what was going on with these works, leaning against the wall.
(11:21):
So, yeah, it was a bit nerve-racking.
Dad, do you know you've just actually unlocked a memory for me, which is the day you were going?
Really?
Because I remember you were sitting in your living room with the paintings around you.
You must have been getting ready. And I would have been early teens at the time.
(11:42):
And I remember walking in and saying, what's wrong, Dad? And you were just so...
No, you were nervous. You were just genuinely...
Yeah, I was.
And fair enough too. And you said, I just don't know if I'm ready for anyone to see them.
What if she doesn't like them? And I remember just saying, well, Dad, they're great.
And if you don't show them, then what's the point? Like, you've got to get them out there.
(12:08):
And what have you got to lose, basically, in a naive sort of 13-year-old way?
And encouraging you. So that's actually so funny. I just remembered that.
That's great.
So what was Jean-Chairman's advice?
Jean was beautiful. And I'm so grateful to her because, because, you know, I'm so grateful to her.
(12:30):
Because I was lacking confidence. And Jean came down and she said, look, just sit there, Gary.
I'm just going to curate these a bit. I don't think she used that word.
And she started grabbing paintings and putting them into three groups.
And she said, after she'd done all that, she said, this group over here, not bad, I bet it's art school stuff.
(12:56):
And this group in the middle, yeah, it's okay too.
And, but you see, at that time, because I didn't have a style, I was teaching myself, I was painting still life.
I was painting landscape. I was painting nerds. I was painting abstract.
And probably the abstract work was numerically the least.
(13:18):
But she was attracted to the abstract work. And she said, look, this is really good.
She said, you've got something really going here that you're using space.
Well, you're using this movement in it and make a long story short over a couple of two.
She said, look, why don't you go away and paint for a year, but follow the abstract path.
(13:44):
And she said, I'll be happy to look at your work again in another year.
And that was incredibly supportive. It was really the first outside support from someone whose opinion I valued enormously.
And I was delighted to go down that path and it's been life changing.
(14:07):
So the great artists had mentors, Leonardo, Raphael, Jackson Pollock.
And Gary, you've been fortunate to have had some wonderful advice and support and friendship from many luminaries in the art world.
So who else has been supportive of that early career?
Well, I have to mention Jean again, because in a year's time or so, she looked at, and I painted like a maniac for a year, but abstract.
(14:34):
And the work was going recently, well, I thought, and she really liked the work.
And she said, Gary, what do you want to do with this?
Like, you're at the bar, you've got all these children referred to the collection.
You have mouths to feed.
Yeah, you've got all these children. And what do you want to do with this?
(14:55):
And I said to her, look, Jean, it's my personality that whatever I do, I have to do it as well as I can.
And I don't know where this is going to elude me. I really don't.
I'm having fun, I'm passionate about it.
And she said, well, I think you need to show.
And I just was a bit stunned. And she said, I can't show you. Straight up.
(15:21):
She said, we only show mid-career, late-career artists. We don't show emerging artists.
But I've got one or two galleries in mind that I'm happy to speak to.
And she did. And one of them was Crawford Gallery, which was then in Liverpool, straight, E. Sydney.
And I went along by appointment. And the director of the gallery looked at the work.
(15:49):
And I had modest hopes that they might like the work enough to put me one painting in a group show.
And they offered me a solo show on the spot.
So that was 1995.
And I had solo shows there in 1995, 1996, 97, as well as various group shows.
(16:12):
And the kids had all come along to the openings.
And I've got photos of little children sitting on the steps, bleary eyed, at eight o'clock.
I got night wanting to go home and sick of the whole thing.
But at that time, and I'm sorry it's taken me a while to get to it,
I'd met Ewan McCloud socially. And Ewan is not only a great painter, but he's a lovely person.
(16:36):
And Ewan understood, I think, intuitively what I was going through, and probably my lack of confidence
and being tentative about what was going on.
And he would come to my show as he came to all the shows at Crawford Gallery.
And subsequently, and we'd look at the work and we'd go and sit in the pub or go and have a bowl of soup or something.
(17:04):
And just talk. And that was, it wasn't telling me what to do.
But we'd just talk as artists to our artists. And that was very, really helpful, really, really helpful.
So I'm very grateful to you and Ewan's a friend. And subsequently, he paid me a fantastic compliment
(17:26):
because subsequently, when I was showing at Jenny Coventeries Gallery in Pennington,
he liked one of the paintings I had in his show. And he offered to do a swap, which is a great compliment
from another artist who you respect. And so we swapped. And I've got two lovely little early Ewan with cloud oils on
(17:49):
paper mounted on canvas at home. He's got a painting of mine.
You mentioned Jenny Coventeries. Now, there was a legend.
Jenny Coventeries has been described in writing, so Angus can't get away from it.
Angus Nivecen, who was close to Jenny, and who's also a friend and a fantastic painter, an abstract painter, of course,
(18:15):
described Jenny as brutally honest. And I think with respect to Gus, that's probably a bit of an understatement.
And Jenny was, to those that remember, and many, many people will, a bit of a legend in the Sydney art scene.
He, without going through his whole biography, but some high points where he was involved with Gallery A, a pivotal gallery in Sydney in the modernist phase.
(18:48):
He was one of the financiers of Christos, rapping at Little Bay, along with others like John Kaldor.
And he had the Coventry Gallery there in Sutherland Street at Paddington. And he was known as having a fantastic eye.
(19:09):
And he had a great eye. So, but he was very, on a personal level, he was very intimidating.
And Jenny had had a stroke and was in a wheelchair and was very gruff.
And he actually liked the painting that most you'd get out of, Jenny was, I don't mind that one. That was it. That was high praise.
(19:30):
So, yeah, and I, I left Crawford Gallery and Centre CV along the Coventry, which was dutifully ignored.
I spoke to Brian, who was the Gallery Manager and, and Jenny's friend, and, um, it's totally my centre CV in.
(19:53):
And he said, oh, there's a whole pile of them downstairs. In other looks at that. Why don't you come along to the opening this week?
And, and he said, I'll introduce you. So, I went along and, and introduced me.
And then Brian disappeared and it, Jenny looked at me, skipped it, Glenn. I said, Jenny, I'd be grateful if, um, you would look at my work.
(20:15):
And he just sat there. He disappeared at me with a sort of grim face. And he said, I might tell you it's a lot of shit.
I said, well, you're mine. But that's the, that's the risk that we've got to take.
And it must have been the right answer because he said, all right, go and make an appointment with Brian and, and, and I did and, uh, later on, um, back in the four wheel drive with the children's seats out, the paintings went in different paintings, of course, down the track.
(20:46):
And he looked at the paintings and I got a couple of I don't mind that one's and that's all right. And, uh, he said to me, where are your drawings?
And, uh, Claudia, at that point, I was, um, you know, running the day job, um, heavily involved with my children and my beautiful wife and, um, coaching football teams and there weren't enough hours in the day.
(21:13):
And, and, and drawing wasn't a big part of the, my process at that stage. But I said, I didn't bring any. I haven't been doing it much drawing any, any way.
And he went, huh, he said, I'm not, not make up a mind about you till I see your drawings. And he said, go away and, um, come back in a couple of months and bring drawings.
(21:36):
I said, okay, sure, sure. And then he looked at me and he said, and don't call them. I said, right. And there was something in the way he said that, that I didn't really get it.
But I knew he was serious about that. So I went away and, um, at that stage, I was, uh, do you remember Daniel or I was painting? We had an old external laundry in the backyard. And it was pretty small. It was a laundry. And that was my studio.
(22:09):
And, um, I'd have to go out into the backyard to get any length that looked at the painting in the corner of the laundry. And I was dragging paintings out in the backyard. If it was a sunny day, I was happy.
And, um, he, um, I went back with drawings having, with the blessing of my lovely wife, Marisa, um, turned over her dining room into a drawing studio for two months.
(22:38):
So I think I had about 55, um, drawings. And they were all, um, 300 gram, um, 76 by 56 watercolor paper, heavy paper. And they were all sorts of, they were all abstract, but there was, you know, ink and charcoal and paint and marks and pencil and, and all different things. And, and, and I was getting ready to go and take them to Coventry.
(23:04):
And I thought about what he said, don't call them. And there were some failures there. Of course there were. There were a number of failures. And I was very tempted to take them out of the pile. But I didn't, and I didn't realize that that was a very significant moment. I didn't realize at that time.
And what was his response?
Well, when I got to Coventry Gallery, it was, um, it was late January, um, 98. And they were getting ready for what was called the Diary Show. And the Diary Show was, was a taster that Coventry ran every year.
(23:42):
Um, where the artists who were due to have solo shows that year would have a couple of works in the Diary Show so that the patron to the gallery could come along and get a feeling for what was going to be exhibited on a bigger scale in the year.
So there were people, artists there, other artists and people coming and going with paintings and it was a bit chaotic and he spotted me. I walked in the gallery with the portfolio and he spotted me and they were like,
(24:08):
what do you got? What do you got? And I said, okay, you know, and he's in the wheelchair. So the only way I could show him the, the, the paintings was to get down on one knee like a sort of supplicant, you know, which was not all that comfortable to start with.
And I opened the portfolio and there was the 55 drawings and, and I turned, he didn't say work. I turned over the first one. He just leaned on his stick. He leaned forward in the wheelchair on his stick.
(24:34):
And those that know him will remember that gesture. And he just looked, he just watched. And I allowed a few seconds, man, you know, not a lot of time.
And I turned them over and we got to about 40 out of 55 and he hadn't said a word.
And we got to somewhere in the 40s and he said, put that one over there. It's the first thing he'd said.
(24:59):
And I put the drawing and he met on the floor beside him across and I put the drawing there. And I kept going and put that one over there and so on.
And we got to, by the time we got to 55, I think there were, you know, maybe four drawings over there. And then I didn't know what to think.
(25:21):
He went through the, the whole pile of drawings three times. And by the end of that process, there were, you know, ten or twelve drawings on the floor.
And I must have looked at complete wreck because Brian looked at me and he looked at Channy and he said, tell Gary what's going on, Channy, because no one was telling me anything.
(25:48):
And he said, and Channy said to Brian, those three, what do you reckon, those three? And I didn't know what they were talking about.
And he, and Brian said, for the diary show, he said, we'll put them in the diary show. And I thought, oh, and he said, those paintings, he said, I want that grey one.
(26:11):
I thought that grey one. I said, oh, yeah, I can bring that. And he said, I want that, I want that other one that had some red and some midtones and some other colours in it.
I said, I can't bring that one. He said, why not? And I said, I've sold it. And he, he sat up sharply in the wheelchair and he said, what?
(26:33):
And I said, Channy, he hadn't taken me on. Someone saw it, wanted to buy it and I sold it. He said, all right, you got that blue, bluey one. I said, yeah, I got that.
Anyway, we had the diary show and one of the two big paintings sold and two of the three drawings sold. And I was on for a solo show that year.
(26:57):
Extraordinary, absolutely extraordinary. So this has got to give you a lot of confidence. These are important people in the art world, not only in Sydney, but in Australia, giving you a tick of approval.
Well, the answer to the short answer, Cordy, was yes. I thought it was a very significant moment. And, I mean, commentary gallery at that time, first of all, you've got Channy who was so well respected.
(27:28):
And it was no one. If Channy took you on, there was something. You had something, right? The artists who were showing with him at the time, I mean, he had a fantastic stable. He had Sue Archer.
Tim Allen was just out of art school, but painting really strongly. Angus Niveson, who I've mentioned, I eat a Tamescue. John Churia, the sculptor from Newcastle, who's a great artist.
(27:58):
Stephen Harvey and others like Peter Sharp and Mike Nichols from Melbourne would have work occasionally. So it was a problem with Bankroft and there are others, and I apologise to any I've left out. But it was a really strong stable. So yes, to go there and be put in a group show, and then a solo show straight away was amazing. And it really did help my confidence.
(28:26):
So to give you even more confidence, you're a finalist in the win prize in 1999.
I think for those reasons, it freed me up. And when you're tentative and when you're lacking confidence, you don't paint freely.
When you start to believe in yourself and when others show a vote of confidence in you, and you start to have some tentative, a bit stronger belief in yourself, it does feed into the painting.
(29:00):
And you do start painting with, you take more risks, you stop worrying about the process and you just let it flow.
And I was lucky enough and I think most artists believe the prizes are a bit of a lottery. But yes, I was hung in the win prize. And again, that fed in, that was fantastic. I was absolutely thrilled.
(29:25):
And at the win prize, you meet John Pitt.
I did. And John Pitt was a very important, very skilled abstract painter, not just abstract, because he would end up the archer ball as well. He could paint really well figuratively.
(29:47):
But he was primarily an abstract painter. And I would always go to a John Pitt. I'd never meet him. But as luck would have it.
And I believe that was my great good fortune. Those, the powers that be hung my painting next to John's and mine, I think, was about a five foot by four.
(30:13):
And his was about ten or twelve foot long. And we went to the artist's sandwich lunch the day before the official opening, which I didn't even know existed. And met John. And when we were looking at the work, and we were talking.
There was an issue with the stretcher, and I was helping with the stretcher. And then towards the end of that, he said, do you want to go and have a coffee in the Art Gallery coffee shop? I said, yep.
(30:45):
We sat there till it closed. And we became, you know, you clicked with people. And John and I became almost instant friends. And for the next thirteen, fourteen years, till his sad demise, we were close friends.
And he was very important, very important. That friendship was very important to me.
(31:09):
Daniella, you're watching all of this go on. And you've been pushing back. I don't want to do what he's doing.
When was the real moment for you?
I also just didn't have time to do what he was doing. I had young children. I was running a business. And then I sold that business.
My third child was born, and it was about twelve months later. He was one. And I thought, I need something that's mine, that I need to carve out time for myself.
(31:39):
And I tried a few different things as you do, yoga and whatnot. And then I just found myself, I couldn't fight it anymore. I just suddenly realised I needed to paint.
It was very much just a meditative thing for me. I was really just, in fact, I think I started with some of my children's tools. So, you know, really, just a kid's canvas and little brushes.
(32:04):
Yeah, exactly, exactly. Certainly with no bigger picture in mind. But I realised that when I was in that state of flow, there was something very meditative about it. And it was doing me good. And I was enjoying it.
And then I suppose I took the big step of, you know, Dad's big step was showing Jen Sherman. Well, for me, it was showing Dad. Sorry.
(32:30):
So, showing him was a big step. And he was very encouraging, as he has been for the past ten years. Very encouraging, very generous with advice and support.
And even art materials, actually, upgraded me from the children's paints and paint brushes and got me all kitted out. I think actually Dad, you gave me a suitcase, an artist's suitcase of basic colours that you said were important.
(33:01):
And here I was saying it was all just primary colours. And you were giving me, you know, red oak, or an Indian yellow and Payne's grey.
And so this was, I guess, a bit of a nod to me to have some confidence and forge ahead. And so I did.
And you sprang into abstract work. You didn't want to do anything figurative. Was it because it's so physically gestural and involving and it really involves your whole body to work like that?
(33:34):
Yes. Yeah, I think you're right, Claudia. I think it was, I needed a release. It wasn't about, you know, being a mother and creating a space for myself and letting all those, yes, daily frustrations and, you know, abstract painting can be about emotions. It very often is.
And so putting those emotions on canvas was incredibly therapeutic for me. And then I saw that beyond that, there was more to it than just pure emotion and colour.
(34:04):
And that's, I guess, where I've landed today. Do you consider Gary your mentor? Oh, he's definitely a mentor, yeah.
He's always been hugely supportive of me painting and probably even when, you know, early on I didn't deserve it. But yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
(34:26):
It's a tough gig.
Yeah, it is a tough gig.
It's a tough gig.
It is a tough gig.
No, this isn't the first time you've exhibited together. You showed at Tatasil's club in 2016. Tell me about that experience.
Well, Tatasil's club have several ponies of mine in their collection. And the club approached me and said, would I invite me to have an exhibition in the club?
(34:56):
And I said, well, that'd be lovely. But I'd like my daughter to exhibit with me. I'd like it to be a two-hander. And they said, well, don't know about that.
We know your work, but you have to send some images. So I did. And as soon as they saw Daniela's work, of course, they said absolutely. We can do a two-hander for you.
(35:20):
And I was very resistant to that, actually. I didn't think I was ready at all. So Dad encouraged me and said, no, no, you're ready.
Is it encouraged me in push?
Yeah, it does, actually.
Good job.
I had to push her a bit. I mean, look, Daniela said, I don't think I'm ready, Dad. You go ahead. You have the show. It'll be great.
And I said, no, you're ready. You are ready. I've been looking at your work. You're ready. And it's an important part as Daniela alluded to earlier.
(35:52):
It's an important thing to show your work. Not to sell it. I mean, selling's a great compliment that somebody puts their hand in their pocket, wants your work.
They want it in their life. They want to live with it. But showing's exhibiting is showing. Showing is about getting your work out there,
(36:13):
letting people who are interested in your work or follow your work see what you've been up to recently. That's important.
People who don't know your work get a chance to see your work. That's important. But as commentary said to me,
I wanted to hear on a Saturday. And I said to Miguel Olmo, our curator, wonderful curator at Gary Lang Cave, that Chaney insisted that his artists be in the gallery on a Saturday.
(36:45):
And he said to me, not to sell. I don't want you trying to sell the work. That's not your job. It's our job.
But I want you there because this is really the only chance you're going to have to see all the work hung together in the one space.
And you'll have time to look at your work and think about where you've come from and where maybe you get an idea where you want to go to.
(37:11):
And that is an important part of exhibiting. It's as important as all the other aspects.
And Daniela, was that the big confidence boost you needed?
I think Dad's always said to me, painting is a confidence game. And I think...
He doesn't mean it's a con.
No, no, it doesn't mean it's a con.
No, no, no, confidence. You've got to have confidence. And I think if anything, abstract art might ask that of you more than any other type of painting, you really have to be confident within yourself.
(37:41):
But when you're hanging, when you're exhibiting and showing people that there's something very personal about painting and you put so much of yourself into it, any creative pursuit really.
Of course, it's a part of you and you're putting it out to the world. And that's really scary.
It's unlike anything else. And so I think taking that step, I remember the opening and I remember being absolutely petrified.
(38:09):
I'm probably down to a couple of champagne's very quickly upon entry. And then people start responding and looking and asking questions and you relax and think, okay, I think they're getting it.
You made a connection.
It was just wonderful. Because my followers came along and they were buying Daniela's work and I'm buying my work.
(38:34):
And Daniela's followers came along and some of them bought my work. Some of them bought Daniela's work. And it was just a really joyous event.
Daniela, you moved to Amsterdam with your family for two years. And you said that living overseas was the scariest and most incredible thing you've ever done.
So what was your experience in Amsterdam?
(38:58):
I never thought that I would live overseas. It was something that came up and opportunity through my husband's work. And we had three small children at the time.
It seemed like the craziest wildest thing to do. And a country that I'd never been to. I'd never been to the Netherlands. I knew very little about Amsterdam.
So it was definitely jumping in the deep end. And it was scary. But it was also really liberating being in a place where no one knew you.
(39:25):
And where you could, I just did such different things. I said yes to everything. I forged a beautiful community of people.
And it was just a really, like a rebirth thing really. I didn't paint a lot over there. But what I did paint, I think, was on a different level. Dad certainly seemed to think so when he came to visit.
(39:51):
I unlocked something. I think I lost a lot of fear. I thought well, if you can move to the other side of the world, maybe you can.
You got this. Yeah, yeah.
Well painting and exhibiting in Amsterdam, was that the turning point for your work?
Possibly. Yeah. I think it was a bit.
Well I know when Marissa and I went to Amsterdam, it was 2007. Danielle and I had a little studio at the top of the Terrace House that they were living in.
(40:19):
And I was just knocked out. I was literally knocked out by the quality of the work. She'd definitely gone to the next level.
And she was handling colour beautifully. And there were some beautiful paintings on the wall. I wanted to grab them and take them out.
Maybe it was being somewhere where literally no one was seeing what I was doing. So there was no judgment. There was no, you know, I didn't have a gallery.
(40:46):
I was showing maybe just some close friends and I was really pushing some different limits.
We had salon shows. Yes, we did meet some other artists and we had some small salon shows in Amsterdam, which was exciting.
Do you think in some strange psychological perverse way, because you were totally removed from Australia and removed from your family, that you could blossom because there was nothing to compare you to?
(41:11):
Maybe. I mean I think I was still wanting to send dad images and things, but I think it was more that I proved to myself, well, you know, moved a family of five to the other side of the world, got nothing to lose.
It'd be like what I said to dad when he was going to see Jane Sherman, got nothing to lose now. Just keep going.
So your career is on the ascent. You're a finalist in the Little Things Art Prize at St. Cloche Gallery in Paddington, the White Hawk Gallery, 30 by 30 Art Show, the Palette Project Prize in Gallery, Alkameen, Milton.
(41:44):
And now you've both come together again. Gary Greg and Daniel Amin's conversations in Markmaking. It's on now at Gallery Lankove and Creative Studios and it's on till the 21st of December.
So we've got these artistic collaboration with two like-minded souls, you're like Gilbert and George or Christo and Jean-Claude or Warhol and Baskia, and it's like this delightful choreography between two artists is dance.
(42:13):
So tell me about the collaboration conversation in Markmaking.
So the paintings are both dad and mine, but not collaborative, but we decided it would be interesting to do a drawing project together.
And we'd started that before there was any talk of an exhibition. We started the drawing project just for our own interest.
(42:39):
So I kind of came from, I actually asked dad when my eldest was three years old to come to the local preschool where she attended, and I said, it'd be really nice dad if he came and did a little art chat with the children.
And he said, well, what should I do with them? Because I can't just chat at them, they're going to glaze over as three-year-olds do.
And I said, well, let's try and think of something that you could do with them. So he said, well, why didn't I talk to them about Markmaking?
(43:04):
You know, dad's always talked about Markmaking as an abstract artist, it's very important.
And so he had this big sheet of white paper in front of the children on an easel, and he said, now, if I put a black mark here, and then I add some pencil, and he sort of just talked to them about this notion of marks.
(43:27):
And we decided, well, it'd be nice if the children could have a turn of their own once they've seen what dad's talking about, and he'd talked to them about the concept of abstract art as well.
And then they had a go, and we decided to just put them in pairs. So they were doing their little marks, and we kept talking to them about restraint, because...
(43:49):
They had to take turns. It's hard for a four-year-old to take turns, but the art teachers, we discussed it with them first, and they were very enthusiastic about it.
So we had the children set up with one piece of paper between two children, and the child A would make a mark, and then have to hand the paper over across the child B, who'd make another mark.
(44:15):
And the mark could be charcoal, or paint, or whatever. And then you could see their little faces, and to have someone else's mark come across to them, and then they had to evaluate that, and they were doing it.
And they were thinking about, well, what am I going to do? What am I going to do now? And that's really what became our idea.
(44:36):
And the results were incredible. It wasn't like a Mr. Squiggle thing, where one line went down and the other one tried to turn it into a house. They really got the concept, and they created some really beautiful work. So that was many years ago.
And then we sort of returned to this idea more recently between the two of us, and had this idea to speak to each other through marks, on paper, through a project that we then took to Miguel at the Gallery, at Gallery Lancove, as a concept.
(45:07):
We'd already started the project, actually. It was in its early stages, and we thought it was interesting, and we were enjoying doing it.
So we'd just swapped portfolios. Daniela in her studio, me and mine, she had three or so bundles of paper of different sizes and weights, and I had the same.
(45:28):
And then we made initial marks on each, and then we swapped the portfolios, and then so Daniela was confronted with my marks, my first intervention.
I was confronted with her first intervention, and that was, and so that went on through the process, but it did give rise to a few funny moments.
(45:49):
So was it a free-flying conversation, or did you necessarily agree on the other's contribution?
Well, there was almost no verbal conversation. It was, the conversation was literally in the mark, but I do recall one verbal conversation.
Well, like any conversation, you have to leave space for the other person to speak. And so, you know, there were some exchanges where I felt that Dad had left no space for me to speak.
(46:23):
And one was when he decided to collage, you know, the wrapping of a tea bag onto one of the pieces, and I called him and said, well, you've basically given me the conversational mic drop, where I've got nowhere to go after this.
And can we agree that maybe don't put tea bags onto the project? But we did have Dad had a set of rules and guidelines.
(46:49):
So, what's your say? Oh, you killed it, I said. You killed it. You just killed it, drawing with the tea bag.
So we had probably more than 100 pieces of paper flying between our studios, and, you know, we had these beautiful big folios that Dad had put the papers into, and we'd thrust them at each other at Family Birthday.
Kate, get together. So, here you go. Off you go. Give me one back.
(47:12):
You owe me a portfolio. I'm sorry. I haven't got to it. I'm a painting, and I'll get to it.
And so it was interesting. I think the ones, you know, we certainly called them for exhibition with the help of Miguel curating them, because there were some that clearly just didn't work, that we'd sort of almost shouted at each other over.
(47:33):
And actually it was interesting. Sometimes I'd put a mark down, and I'd not realise, but I was being very leading. Like I wanted him to do.
I could picture the next movement, because that's what I would do. And it would come back to me, and I'd think, oh, you didn't do it right. What did you do?
It's lots and crosses. It's not so, yeah, yeah. So, look, it was a very interesting exercise. I think we learned a lot about each other.
(47:57):
I think we learned a lot about mark making through it. And at the end of the day, what I can say is that we were in very firm agreement on which ones worked, which ones were, as I said, dead and ready.
And ready for the scrap heap. And also, funnily enough, we never, we said that orientation would be decided right at the end. And we were very infirmary agreements on which was, what was the orientation.
(48:22):
And then we signed off on them all. So, yeah.
Yeah, it was fabulous. It was so much fun. And the works were very happy with the work. And I'd just, Daniel, I'm mentioning Cole.
Could I just return briefly?
Commentaries said to me about a year later, he said, you know, if you'd culled those drawings you brought me, he said, I wouldn't have touched you.
(48:46):
And I said, what do you mean? He said, I wouldn't have touched you. He said, because I can tell as much about a painter from, or a drawer or an artist from their failures as I can from the ones that succeeded.
The question that every artist grapples with is, when is a piece of art finished? And you've got two creatives working on and artwork here. So when do you stop? And was that always a mutual decision?
(49:14):
Pretty mutual. Yeah. We actually didn't have any disagreements on that. And in fact, some of them were done after one swap. You know, one, one pass from, yes, from each person.
And then others took, you know, four swaps. And even in gallery when we were putting them together and deciding which ones would actually be shown, there were a couple that we said, oh, there's just a bit more that needs to happen here.
(49:43):
So we actually made marks in gallery as well. Oh, the conversation kept going.
Then Yola, in the exhibition, one of your artworks is entitled, Courage, Dear Heart. Why is that piece so special to you?
So I think, like we talked earlier, confidence is incredibly important as an artist, as a creative. And I maybe last year was feeling a bit flash in that department.
(50:11):
And was a bit, yeah, I needed to bolster myself. And I started by sort of giving myself a mantra for the year for my work in the studio.
And I just took a big sheet of brown paper and some black ink and wrote for myself Courage, Dear Heart, which is a quote from the CS Lewis book, The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe.
(50:35):
And it just really spoke to me because you have to have Courage when you're doing something scary. And I liked the Dear Heart part because it felt kind and gentle. And I needed kind and gentle.
And I just, every time I walk into my studio, it's literally at the top of my painting wall. And I'm always working underneath it. And it's guiding me. And I just decided to incorporate it into that work.
(50:58):
It does take Courage to be an artist. Henri Matisse agreed with you. He said creativity takes Courage because you're always putting yourself out there. And if I can quote another great artist, Ed Wood Hopper said, if I could say it in words, there would be no reason to paint.
Is that the way you both feel?
Yeah, it's definitely a different part of me that painting unlocks. And in fact, you can see it from walking into the studio. I'm a different person in the studio.
(51:27):
You know, in, I have a backyard studio. I'm very lucky to have a space at home. And in my home, I'm fairly ordered. I'm organized, fairly neat.
You know, don't run a tight ship as such. But you know, I have three children. It's a busy house. I've got to keep on top of things. In my studio, I am chaotic, wild, free, loose, kind of crazy.
(51:54):
And when I actually find I paint best when I can access that part of me. So, yeah. It's what about you, Dad?
Well, the, the, being in the studio is, is, is a wonderful time. And, and painting and, and making art satisfies a need in me that nothing else can. It's, it occupies a space in my life that's an important space.
(52:19):
Speaking of spaces, I too now have a backyard studio that I have enjoyment in sitting in with my cup of green tea and staring at what I'm doing.
Staring at what's on the wall. I privilege to, through the generosity of my dear, dear friends, Alan and Jan Rees, to work in Lloyd, the Lloyd Rees studio in Northwood, which is just up the road.
(52:48):
And as it turned out, I, I worked in that space for 20 years. And, and the children had come up when they were little and find me in the studio.
And the neighbours had seen it at a large canvas with a pair of legs moving down the street back to our place. And that was, that was very significant.
(53:12):
And not just the space, but the friendship and support that Alan and Jan offered me was very significant in my, my development and the confidence they had in me.
And I, I went up to tell them that commentary had taken me on and Bill Pigeon, who was, had passed, was the, was a cartoonist for the city morning.
(53:39):
In fact, before my time, but I was aware of him and his widow lived in the neighbourhood. And I asked Alan and Jan could they introduce me to her because I was interested to rent Bill Pigeon's old studio because I knew I had to get out of the laundry.
And, and as loving people, married people of, of some duration, they are intuitive. They almost read each other's minds.
(54:06):
And when I asked them about Bill Pigeon, they, the two of them looked at each other and I still remember it.
And Alan said, we've got a better idea Gary, had you liked the work in Dad's studio? And I couldn't believe it. I couldn't believe it.
So I, I, I'm blessed, I am fortunate and I'm forever grateful to them for that because it, it played a huge part. I had a space. It was, it was near to home. And the fan, it wasn't away from the family. They could find me.
(54:37):
Yeah. Yes, we'd have to come and get you for dinner. Yeah, because we, it was, it was before and on the cusp of mobile phones and the kids.
And the great man painted there. You were in the space. Absolutely. And, and I remember when I'm, you might recall there was a, there was a push to turn the house into a museum and they didn't want that.
(54:59):
They didn't want to Brett Watley's studio. So set up. And when I moved in and they came down and they said, Oh, we just are so happy to have a painter work in this space.
And I said, but I'm a bit worried, Alan, because you know, your dad was an easel painter, essentially. And I'm going to make a mess. I'm, I'm playing abstract.
(55:23):
And he said, don't worry about that. He said the last bloke in here was pretty messy. And that sums them up, really.
Do you think there are any similarities in your work?
The two of us. Daniela and I.
Well, we're both, we're both working in an abstract language, but I don't know. There may be some superficial similarities.
(55:50):
I mean, there's a limited range of marks, the language of, of marks that are abstract artists employ line, different kinds of line, depth, color, movement.
But I think that if you go into our show now, please do it at Gary Langkove.
(56:15):
It's not hard to work out that there are two distinct styles going on. Would you agree?
Yeah, I think, I think I have been definitely influenced by you. That's, you know, absolutely.
But I think, yeah, and inspired by your real intuitive love and respect for the surface and, and how you work the surface and, and using those marks.
(56:47):
And, and I think you're restraint. I think I've definitely probably learnt to be more restrained and less obvious with what I'm trying to say.
So yeah, I would say you've definitely, you've definitely influenced me and, and maybe pushed me to think further than obvious.
(57:09):
You know, I think early on I was using color and in a way that was maybe more obvious and I think that my work's matured.
Well, thank you, darling. That's lovely.
Gary, you have five children and you're close to all of them, but you and Daniela are really speaking the same language.
And as a father and as a fellow artist and a friend, how did you feel walking into Gallery Langkove and seeing both of your work on display?
(57:36):
The best part, the best part was seeing Daniela's work in a really good space. Beautifully hung, beautifully led.
And it was, for me, it was the best part. I mean, my work looks terrific. I'm thrilled with the way it looks, but I was so thrilled for her.
(57:59):
Really.
And Daniela, for you, when you see the work hung, Gallery Langkove, it's looking great on the walls.
What were you thinking when you looked at it?
I think they take on a life of their own when they're hung in a space like that and it is a beautiful space.
Yeah, it's like you're pushing, I guess, the cliche is putting your children out into the world.
(58:25):
But it is a bit like that. There's no really better way to say it.
It's been said that a good conversation is a work of art with more than one creator.
And the results of this artistic dialogue are not only beautiful pieces of work that are honest and true,
but they're honest and true because they're created from the heart.
And this is a conversation with integrity and respect. And there's also the playfulness that comes from familiarity.
(58:52):
Gary Gregg, Daniela Minz, thank you so much for joining me on ArtChat.
Thank you, Claudia.
Thank you so much, Claudia.
The exhibition is Gary Gregg and Daniela Minz, Conversations in Mark Making.
It's on now at Gallery Lane Cove and Creative Studios and runs until the 21st of December.
(59:14):
ArtChat is produced by Gallery Lane Cove and Creative Studios,
situated on the lands of the gay marigal people.
Gallery Lane Cove receives financial assistance from Lane Cove Council and supporters, like yourself.
This episode of ArtChat is presented and produced by me, Claudia Chan-Shore.
And our production team includes Krista Teren, Sheena Reese, Sasha Satz, Cathy Campbell.
(59:37):
Miguel Olmo is our executive producer.
You can follow us or subscribe on your favourite streaming platform.
Thanks so much for joining us and we'll catch you next time on ArtChat.
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