February 27, 2025 • 57 mins
In this episode of The Best DPC Podcast, host Wayne Lowry sits down with tech visionaries Jonathan Minson (CEO of Calvient) and Devon Mobley to discuss the future of healthcare technology. They unveil Allora Health, a game-changing cash-pay marketplace designed to make healthcare more transparent, affordable, and efficient.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Wayne LowrySo have you thought about grounding? I feel like we're repeating a conversation from the past.
(00:06):
Devon MobleyYeah.
Wayne LowryTell me your thoughts on grounding.
Devon MobleySo if you have a standing desk. You must definitely do yoga and compost.
Wayne LowryCold plunge.
Devon MobleyYeah.
Wayne LowryYou got to cold plunge every day. If you have a standing desk, you definitely cold plunge.
Jonathan MinsonDevin is into. Yeah, he's into cold therapy. I know that. We talked about this.
(00:27):
Jonathan MinsonI was into it for a while and I gave up on it.
Wayne LowryYou gave up on it? Why are you a quitter?
Jonathan MinsonI was expecting to drop 50 lbs and it didn't happen. So why subject myself to that torment?
Devon MobleyNo, I just used it to wake me up in the morning. That's pretty much it for me.
Wayne LowryYou know how I wake myself up in the morning?
Wayne LowryRight here. Nice cup of coffee
Jonathan MinsonYeah, and in the afternoon.
(00:49):
Devon MobleyYeah, exactly. Let me tell you something. I need all of the tools to wake me up all the time. I'm a tired, tired boy.
Wayne LowryHello and welcome to the Best DPC podcast, The World's #1 podcast covering all topics related to direct primary care. I am your host, Wayne Lowry. No, I am not a doctor, but I will prescribe you all the fun you can stand.
(01:23):
Wayne LowryJoining me today is two tech geniuses, Jonathan Minson, CEO of Calvient, and Devin Mobley, self-proclaimed tech wizard and product guru, which we will be the judge of that.
Wayne LowryWe are excited to have them today and also just a little note for our audience today, they're gonna be revealing a brand new product never before announced. So we're very excited that they chose the Best DPC podcast to make that announcement.
(01:54):
Wayne LowryTake that, Joe Rogan. I know you think you're the bomb diggity, but we get breaking news right here. So there you go. So excited to have you guys. The Best DPC podcasts, Breaking news and Breaking Hearts since 2025. So welcome guys.
Jonathan MinsonGlad to be here.
Devon MobleyThank you so much for having us.
(02:16):
Wayne LowrySo before we get into the big stuff, as much as I'd like to just rip off the Band-Aid and just jump into the meat of the conversation, I want the audience to have a chance to kind of get to know you guys. Jonathan, I've known you for a few years, some 20 years. I believe.
Jonathan MinsonMm-hmm.
Wayne LowryDevin. I met you a couple of weeks ago, and I judged you instantly. As being one of those guys that that cold plunges and gets grounded every morning with his bare feet in the grass while doing yoga. And I mean, I don't know if that's true, but that's what I'm gonna put out there for the entire audience.
(02:38):
Devon MobleyFair enough.
Devon MobleySure.
Devon MobleyIt's fine with me as much as I'd like to fight you on it. Maybe some of those stereotypes stick.
Wayne LowryOK.
Jonathan MinsonIt's mostly true.
(03:00):
Wayne LowryMostly true?
Jonathan MinsonI've known Devin for a long time. I'd say, it's like 70% true.
Wayne LowryWell, so both of you guys are based in Oklahoma, correct?
Jonathan MinsonCorrect.
Jonathan MinsonOklahoma City. Wayne Lowry That's right, both Oklahoma City. So let me ask, I guess the most important and pressing question. I can see the highlights of a logo on your shirt there. Jonathan, are you an OU fan?
(03:22):
Jonathan MinsonI am an OU fan like most people in this area. This shirt was a gift to me. I didn't go to OU, which I know there's a stigma about people wearing OU gear when they didn't go to the school. But I love OU since I was a kid, this was given to me as a gift and I love it. It's a great shirt. I'm mainly in Oklahoma City Thunder fan and Wayne, I know you well enough to know that you're a Rockets fan.
(03:43):
Wayne LowryOK.
Wayne LowryI am a Rockets fan. You are correct there. I like the Rockets. I like the Astros. I like the Texans.
Wayne LowryI like the Houston livestock Show and rodeo. I like Space city. I like all of the things Houston related. No soccer is for quitters. No, I'm not a soccer fan. No. So.
Jonathan MinsonDynamo.
(04:07):
Devon MobleyStrong opinions strongly held.
Wayne LowrySo, but you know what about you, Devon? What are your thoughts on OU and specifically joining the SEC?
Devon MobleySure. So I, unlike Jonathan, did attend the University of Oklahoma, but you know the gates wide open we welcome everyone. So I am actually native Texan, but I moved to Oklahoma City and you know I have been here since 2004.
(04:37):
Devon MobleySo it's pretty much.
Wayne LowryNice. So what made you leave the Lone Star State?
Devon MobleyFamily changes. So my family got their start kind of in the the oil fields of the Texas Panhandle, which is I'm sure you can attest the worst part of the state of Texas. But so we just whenever my family was looking to transition to new lines of work that Oklahoma City was a natural landing spot. It's kind of the close big city to the Panhandle to be honest.
(05:05):
Wayne LowryYeah. Well, I will say there is no bad part of Texas. So if anyone asks, officially my position is there are no bad parts of Texas, in fact.
Devon MobleyHe's trying to one up me with the Texas love.
Wayne LowryWell, I have no choice. So Panhandle of Texas. I lived about six months up in Amarillo and I will say this the coldest winter and the hottest summer of my life were in Amarillo, TX, but that's where my wife was from, so I can't complain. I can't complain too much.
(05:36):
Jonathan MinsonDid you eat the 72 ounce steak, Wayne, have you ever taken a shot at that?
Wayne LowryYou know, we were talking about not wanting to be a quitter. So earlier before the pod, I'm not gonna start a 72 ounce steak when I know I can't do it.
Devon MobleyI gotta say.
Jonathan MinsonYeah. Yeah, that's fair.
Wayne LowryI'm more of like a eating or my skill set when it comes to devouring food is more of like the long approach. I'm more of a marathon runner, like eating all through the day, way too many calories versus that one goal. Not really a sprinter.
(06:07):
Jonathan MinsonYeah.
Sure.
Jonathan MinsonI spent time with Wayne in the summer before he got married and I love to tell this story. We ate a lot together and we actually lived in the same house together for a month and he, you know, he'd always say when we go out to eat that I'm you know I'm watching my weight. I gotta fit into my tux. So he'd order half portions of twice the amount of food.
Wayne LowryYeah, gradle.
(06:32):
Jonathan MinsonEverywhere we went, which I don't know about the math there.
Wayne LowryHey, it's all psychological warfare.
Wayne LowryIt's psychological together. Jonathan Minson Yeah. So yeah, I guess.
Wayne LowrySo if you order half portions then and you you know you can order as much as you want as long as half portion take home the rest. I don't know. It's a win win.
Jonathan MinsonYeah, that's like why I get the milkshake and the Diet Coke.
Jonathan MinsonYou know there's a counteraction there, yeah.
(06:53):
Wayne LowryCancels out. Everybody knows this.
Wayne LowrySo favorite diner or dive in OKC. So next time I'm up there. In fact, I'm thinking about, well, I think I'm gonna be in Tulsa, maybe in a few months at the in that where the free Market Medical Association conferences this year.
Wayne LowryIs that in Tulsa? Devon Mobley Will actually that.
Devon MobleyWill actually be in Oklahoma City this year.
Wayne LowryIt is Oklahoma City sweet, so I may actually get to see you guys in person potentially, as I understand you are gonna be there as well.
(07:21):
Devon MobleyAbsolutely. That's right. That's right.
Wayne LowryUs so when I'm there, since we're talking about food, what's a good dinner or dive someplace that that we can only get there, that you can't get somewhere else and don't say Brahms cause, I mean, like everybody.
Jonathan MinsonYeah, yeah. Devin is, but Devin better answer.
Jonathan MinsonThis question cause I probably would say bro.
Devon MobleySo let let me ask you a follow-up question real quick. So are you like, I want to try, you know, the bacon and eggs or whatever, you know, or hamburger at at anywhere I go or you would semi adventurous?
(07:51):
Wayne LowryI'm pretty adventurous. I mean, I'll. I'll pretty much try anything at least once.
Devon MobleyThe the best restaurant probably in Oklahoma City and it is semi hard to get into is Cafe Cacao. It's a Guatemalan breakfast food restaurant open from 9:00 like you know.
Devon Mobley6:00 AM or whatever to like. Early afternoon. Many people. If you were to look it up or ask around that they that's a common common recommendation and it's hard to find something that people won't love there.
(08:19):
Wayne LowryWell, when I'm up there in a few months or next month, whenever that is, calendars are tough to follow. Whenever that is, I guess you'll be buying me breakfast. I appreciate that. Thanks, Devin.
Wayne LowryFor the offer. Devon Mobley I'd be happy to.
Jonathan MinsonDevin. Yeah, it's on Devin. Devin, I will buy.
Devon MobleyI'll bring my young man.
Jonathan MinsonYou bombs if you're.
Jonathan MinsonInterested. We get Flack of burgers. It's 5.
Jonathan MinsonOurs.
Wayne LowryMaybe I'll just have order 1/2 portion with Devin and that way I'll have room.
(08:43):
Wayne LowryFor a yes.
Wayne LowryHalf of an extra large milkshake with you.
Devon MobleySounds like a good strategy. Yes, absolutely.
Wayne LowryYeah. So to kind of dive in a little bit to a little bit of industry specific conversation, Devin, I understand you started your career as an IT tech in a hospital, is that correct?
(09:04):
Devon MobleyYeah. So you know I mentioned earlier that I graduated from the University of Oklahoma and I, you know, exited and tried to enter the workforce with workforce with a.
Devon MobleyLucrative philosophy degree. So the only skill that I really had to really leverage was that I had built computers, grew up around computers, was really fortunate just frankly happened to have an uncle that was into building computers and gaming and that sort of thing. So.
(09:33):
Devon MobleyLeverage that into an it sort of desktop support role.
Devon MobleyAnd that actually was at the specialty hospital that I met Jonathan at. So the kind of the the without bearing the lead there, I got my start into the software side of technology in, in healthcare all through Jonathan's help. He was my mentor and taught me how to code and and then now Fast forward today and we're we're business partners so.
(09:58):
Devon MobleyThat's kind of the short version of that.
Jonathan MinsonSorry.
Wayne LowrySo you you kind of gravitated more to the IT tech side now Jonathan, you've been involved in working within the hospital industry in the medical industry, healthcare industry for for some time. In fact that that's pretty much been your the focus of your career, correct?
Jonathan MinsonI had one brief stint at a golf course, cleaning, cleaning, golf carts and cooking in the grill, but most of my career has been in healthcare. My first job in healthcare was not in IT. I actually had a couple of healthcare related jobs, one in Medical Records, 1 as a medical assistant.
(10:35):
Jonathan MinsonAnd then one summer, there was an opening in the IT department, and I jumped on it. I loved computers. I kind of thought that's what I wanted to do professionally. And so I made a pivot into into technology. But I actually started on the medical side working with some cardiologists. So that's been my start. And I was fortunate that around that time.
Jonathan MinsonThey the system we were at created a software develop.
(10:58):
Jonathan MinsonTeam I knew how to code. I'd gone to school not at OU, but I went to college with an MIS degree and I helped create that team. We brought in Devin a year or two after that and that really blossomed and grew into something really big and.
Jonathan MinsonSpecial.
Jonathan MinsonAnd around the time around 2020, we kind of were reading the tea leaves and I think we had the edge.
(11:19):
Jonathan MinsonLet's go build something. Let's go start something we've been working for. A system done a lot of great work. Love them and and cherish our time there. But we were ready to to build something new. And so the last few years we've been one other co-founder. But we've been here at Calvin's building some great stuff.
Wayne LowrySo you're building stuff related to tech, right? So let me ask, why is healthcare tech so crazy? Why is it driving so crazy?
(11:43):
Jonathan MinsonYeah, I don't know that I have enough time, but I will try to. I'll lay out a few reasons. So anyone who uses their patient portal, if you have a doctor and they have a patient portal, it's probably my chart by epic or what used to be called IQ health by Oracle or one of the big patient portals. They're horrific.
Jonathan MinsonYou'll get much more mileage out of your bank software out of your video streaming software out of your podcasts. Those are intuitive, great platforms, the best.
(12:12):
Yes.
Jonathan MinsonHealthcare tech, especially facing the consumer is very poor and a lot of this goes back ultimately.
Jonathan MinsonThere's some regulatory decisions that were made in the late 2000s. If you've ever heard of the term meaningful use, what happened was in in 2000, late 2000's, the government created a program to incentivize a well-intentioned program. I should say, to incentivize health systems to implement computer systems.
(12:36):
Jonathan MinsonAnd what unfortunately happens is it essentially locked in technology at 2009 levels, and since then we've seen a robust explosion and all kinds of new tech from mobile to cloud based now to AI. But because of the barriers to entry that were erected by the government and lobbied for by the biggest companies and healthcare technology.
(12:58):
Jonathan MinsonThey know who they are because of that, it's created barriers to entry so that if I had an idea to go build a new electronic health.
Jonathan MinsonRecord Mobile first built on AI all the Great bells and whistles. The amount of the the legal battle to become certified and to be a part of what Medicare calls. The certified EHR technology list to get my Chapel ID. All the things I have to do just to play the game it's it's just way too expensive for any any startup unless you're incredibly well.
(13:26):
Jonathan MinsonFunded or you're a company like Oracle who just just straight up acquired Cerner.
Jonathan MinsonTo get into the.
Jonathan MinsonName and so there's a lot of reasons. A HIPAA, you know, everyone's scared. I think fear has driven a lot of decisions in healthcare technology unfortunately, but it it for a large part, it really goes back to those early days of meaningful use and a well-intentioned regulation that had the effect of really shutting down innovation.
(13:47):
Wayne LowryNo.
Wayne LowryLet let me let me press you on that for a second. So you said it's well-intentioned you. Do you truly believe it was all intention or do you think it was some big groups that had lots of money that wanted to lock it in so they could control the medical?
Wayne LowryHistory.
Jonathan MinsonIt depends who we're talking about. I I do sincerely believe the people.
(14:09):
Jonathan MinsonWho passed it?
Jonathan MinsonThis was the part of the American Investment Recovery Act. The people and, and that that was passed in the Obama years. But it was really talked up during the Bush years as well. So this is a bipartisan effort. This isn't one party versus the other. Both parties were weren't on board with this. I think the people who passed it.
Jonathan MinsonWere well-intentioned because the idea was we want to create a federal program.
(14:30):
Jonathan MinsonTo reward financially systems for implementing these computer systems at that time, a lot of the world was still on paper. They still are. You always hear this joke is that you thought we used a lot of paper. Then we implemented the EHR and we even we use even more paper, but those that was well-intentioned from the legislative bodies, I believe that now the lobbying.
(14:51):
Jonathan MinsonTroops there is no doubt in my mind that that was an effort, especially when they created the OC certification.
Jonathan MinsonThere, that was an effort to create legalized barriers to entry in the healthcare tech world, and that has that has stood the test of time to this day. And so there are some things that you just kind of can't touch as a start up because you're encroaching upon EHR lands and when you're in HR land, you're encroaching on regulatory land. I do believe that was probably.
(15:17):
Jonathan MinsonA lot of self-interest going on and not looking out for the good of the consumer.
Wayne LowrySo we we live in, I don't know if you'll notice or or heard, but we live in a new age, a new era. Things are not exactly the same in DC as they were in 2009. We'll get into some of the what the future might hold, but since we're talking about this is is almost from the standpoint of whose fault is it? And we're looking at.
(15:43):
Wayne LowryThe basically the the culprit that's holding back advancements in healthcare tech. In your mind, Jonathan or or Devin either. Do you still see that this legislation is the number one culprit or are there other things that now have come into play that would really continue?
Wayne LowryTo reinforce.
(16:05):
Wayne LowryLet let's say that let's say that we wave waved a magic wand and the law was changed. What would need to happen to to enter into that space, and who's going to continue to hold us back or hold, you know, America back on on healthcare advance advances in tech.
Jonathan MinsonYeah. The question of who's the bad guy? I mean, it's easy to point fingers and say, well, the payers are the.
(16:29):
Jonathan MinsonThat guy or the big EHR companies or the bad guy and?
Jonathan MinsonThe reality is all. Wayne Lowry You heard it here first. You heard it here. First. The EHR. These are the bad guy. I was waiting for that sound bite. All right. Sorry, Jonathan. Go ahead. Go ahead.
Jonathan MinsonYeah, I know.
Jonathan MinsonYeah, please. Yes, yes, absolutely. It's easy to say they're the bad guy. The reality is everyone is just following incentives. These the incentive structures exist. It started with Medicare. I'm sorry it started with the meaningful use as a part of Medicare. Now it's MIPS. These are just incentive structures. So the the health systems, the HR companies, the payers, they are all just following.
(16:59):
Jonathan MinsonThe set of intents.
Jonathan MinsonAnd and ultimately the consumers have a stake in this as well. And I think one of the realities that the next generation of healthcare leadership has has become aware of is that.
Jonathan MinsonThe younger generation of patients will not put up with bad technology like the older generation would, because they're accustomed to being able to book online to pay my bill online. My my dad, he needed to book an appointment.
(17:25):
Jonathan MinsonAnd what he did is he got in his car and drove to the office and walked in and said, I want to book an appointment. I would never do that if if I talked to a if I called up a doctor's office, which I don't even want to call you, I'd rather fill out a form on your website.
Jonathan MinsonIf I called up with doctor's office and they said yeah, drive down here during business hours, take off from work, we'll get you in.
Jonathan MinsonI would say see, you never talk to them again, and I imagine that people younger than me have even higher standards, so consumer behavior does drive a lot of this. And I do think there's going to become there's going to come a critical mass of young consumers saying we're not gonna deal with these horrible.
(17:59):
Jonathan MinsonSystems and there will be pressure on the health systems from a strictly competitive standpoint to to get their act together. So I don't know that there's a single bad person. Everyone's following incentives, but the the answer to this one, I would love to see a deregulation of of certified EHR technology. But I would also love to see more consumer pressure from patients saying.
Jonathan MinsonEnough is enough.
(18:20):
Wayne LowryYeah, I appreciate that. I want to take a quick break to talk about best pc.com. Are you a doctor looking to break free from the headaches of insurance and take control of you?
Wayne LowryPractice. Or maybe you're an employer searching for an affordable healthcare solution that actually works at best. Dbc.com we cut through the noise and connect you with the country's best direct primary care clinics. Whether you're a patient tired of surprise medical bills or a physician ready to build a thriving membership based practice.
(18:50):
Wayne LowryWe've got the tools and resources you need.
Wayne LowryFind the best CBC doctors near you. Get expert advice and take the first step towards a better healthcare.
Wayne LowryVisit besttvc.com today and see why direct Primary care is the future of medicine. That's bestdpc.com because great healthcare should be simple, affordable, and built around you. Devin, let me switch to you for a second. Actually questioning on the.
(19:15):
Wayne LowrySpace. You've seen the provider side up close, you know, working in that industry and working up up close in that space. What do you think the docs are are facing the most as far as the challenges with with all these regulations and specifically thinking about our audience, the DPC based audience people that are already?
Wayne LowryMaybe frustrated with the traditional healthcare model and are looking at direct primary care from your perspective, what are some of the tech headaches that you think traditional docs are facing and what can be fixed or changed for DPC?
(19:54):
Jonathan MinsonYeah.
Devon MobleyYeah, for sure. I think what I what I primarily see on the provider side is this growing overtime kind of.
Devon MobleyA bit of a boiling frog effect in which these providers are their time with their patients is being taken away, so there's it's like death by 1000 cuts. One cut is that, you know, they're increasingly having to get be more strict in terms of how's my note. Look what codes.
(20:26):
Devon MobleyUsing you know what payer even like, what's my payer mix and kind of being aware of that. So you know thinking of those who are in traditional settings with insurance mixes, but then you add things like, you know, hospital overhead, small business in general.
(20:47):
Devon MobleyAnd just the the the issues that it may that come up when it comes to running and growing and and maintaining a small business and it it's just one thing after another. Jonathan mentioned MIPS that's another piece of regulation that affects particularly small provider practices. And then you have.
Devon MobleyStaff turnover. I just feel like.
(21:10):
Devon MobleyOne of the things that happens is that there's no time, no bandwidth anymore for providers to just sit and be with patients and to be able to then also have time to construct a well thought out, you know, narrative of the the care and and frankly, I think, you know kind of looping tech into this, one of the things that is.
(21:31):
Devon MobleySomewhat to blame.
Devon MobleyIs the fact that we did do what Jonathan mentioned we pushed for these systems to be the source of truth now for people who don't, you know, no technology super well, one of the things that you have to kind of understand and distinguish is that doctors and clinicians and hospitals work.
(21:53):
Devon MobleyOff of what we call unstructured data. So narratives, they're typing out things. They're talking, they're dictating, they're getting information from a conversation like we are right now together.
Devon MobleyBut computer systems are like think you know, just think Excel spreadsheets. They want numbers. They want these little fields that they do one specific thing and they have one kind of label. And you know what it is and you know, up until the age of AI, which is a whole other different conversation to get into, we've not been able to like.
(22:23):
Devon MobleyReally find the right way for those types that type of information to to work together. So why am I saying that? Well, I'm saying that because part of what gets a doctor paid what allows them to, you know, report on their outcomes, report on their measures, do all these various things is.
Devon MobleyIt's partially a clunky workflow for just. I had a really successful patient experience, but now I have to make sure that I'm putting this all in the proper way and I can't make any mistakes. I have a ton of pressure not to make any mistakes, so I think like when the DPC well, I think that there's a fantastic opening and why we've seen such an explosion of that since.
(23:02):
Devon MobleyIn the past, you know.
Devon MobleyHalf a decade or a little more has been partially because I physicians can be physicians again for an office staff can be for an office staff. You know you don't have you know.
Devon MobleyA kind of.
Devon MobleyLike 6 to one billing office to rest of your staff ratio where most of your operation is just figuring out how to get paid. It's simple.
(23:24):
Devon MobleyAnd then that does translate to the software side folks who work in this space for those who didn't know, can provide software that don't follow the types of regulations that Jonathan mentioned earlier. They can provide more open software that is easier to use and just kind of solves the problem, if that makes sense, right.
Jonathan MinsonI'd like to piggyback on that because you're right, this is being enforced through Medicare Part B. If you're out of the Medicare game, you are free, you can get—and go look at some of the EHR's that support direct primary care or other non Medicare, you know domains and the cost is an order of magnitude less.
(24:03):
Jonathan MinsonSo, so much of the cost is because of these certification rules. And you know, I've heard doctors so many times say, “I'm not a coder.” And they mean in the sense, “I'm not coding IC10 codes and I don't wanna treat the computer.”
Jonathan MinsonAnd I've been to doctors where they're treating the computer. I mean, they don't even look at me. They're just clicking, clicking, clicking, and there's really 2 reasons that's happening. One is because of meaningful use and now MIPS and MACRA, which says you've gotta do things like if the patient has sleep apnea, you have to ask them these 10 questions and document them in the chart in very particular ways. So tedious and slow. And that's one of hundreds of different measures that different specialists are having to chase after there's the regulation side.
(24:45):
Jonathan MinsonBut another, maybe even more insidious Nexus of bad incentives comes together on the payer side. Because payers, you know, you wanna up code. I mean we don't like to talk about it, but I want to—in order to get paid as best I can—make my patients look as sick as they possibly can. And that obviously feeds into value based care.
Jonathan MinsonAway from fee for service and some other models that we thought were bad and maybe they were.
(25:10):
Jonathan MinsonBut EHR's made that easy.
Jonathan MinsonAnd I've worked with providers and on the EHR side, so I know these. I've been Privy to these conversations of, “Hey, can you help us see that maybe we could code this patient in such a way that they have a certain condition or meet a certain set of criterias to bump them up into the next level on an E&M charge?” that is—
(25:31):
Jonathan MinsonThat not only has an impact as a consumer that has a population health problem and that we are incentivizing doctors to make patients look sicker so they can get paid more. So there's an unholy alliance of technology and payers coming together to create a really perverse incentive.
Jonathan MinsonAnd that's why doctors that are in the Medicare game are spending so much time on the computer. Now, I gotta be careful. Doctors are not the villains.
(25:58):
Wayne LowryOf course not. Jonathan Minson They are doing what they're told by their administrators to do. Doctors don't like this at all. I mean, they will tell you they hate this, but it's the game they have to play.
Wayne LowryWell, and that's why we see a growing movement of doctors all across America.
Wayne LowryDoctors, nurse practitioners, you know, we see them all jumping into the DPC space because frankly, they have the freedom and flexibility to work in that space where their hands are tied, where they're taking their time, you know, charting on the weekends.
(26:32):
Wayne LowryAnd doing paperwork on their vacation, you know…
Devon MobleyThat's right.
Wayne LowryOpening up their life to be able to be a parent, to be a community member and not just strictly working all the time just to meet up with all those regulations. So that's, I mean, that's a big reason why I've been such a fan of DPC for the last several years is get to experience what these providers and the change it makes for them.
(26:59):
Wayne LowryI mean, in a healthy provider, what does a healthy provider do? It provides healthy outcomes for his patients—his or her patients. And so we're very much in alignment on that. The challenge that, that space.
Wayne LowrySo, Speaking of, I do want to transition if that's OK. We're going to dive into more talk, very specific to DBC in a moment, but I think it's time to make a big reveal and I'd like you guys to talk a little bit about what you're doing now.
(27:32):
Wayne LowryThis new project…let's just jump right in and say, “Alora Health, what is?”
Jonathan MinsonAlora Health—Devin, tell us all about it.
Devon MobleyYeah. So, Alora Health is a platform that we developed that the entire mission of it is to provide accessible and affordable care to anyone who's searching for it. So, imagine a place where you could actually just go. It acts like a shopping cart.
(28:05):
Devon MobleyYou search for—very similar to how you might envision searching for any small business or service you know, geographically located, you're able to see things like ratings and things like that. And then of course, pricing. So, what's the pricing? What does it cost to be able to go see this particular physician or specialist or Physical therapist? Or to buy this particular drug.
(28:31):
Devon MobleySo, it really is—Alora is really, at its heart, a cash pay marketplace platform. And so, without kind of getting too deep into it, but kind of explaining how it works slightly for patients, you can just search for the care that you need and then we also are trying to align the different incentives.
(28:56):
Devon MobleyBased on employers, as well as providers, so the other half of this is we really want to work with providers, people who probably have that awareness, like the DPC audience who you know, they know how hard it is and have been in that those shoes of trying to run a clinic where you're waiting on claims forever.
Devon MobleySo our main goal with Alora is to also be a facilitation platform. So taking those funds, patient pays for a particular service or bundle that goes as soon as possible–day of service–to that provider. So, we are not creating claims or “claims-like” process.
(29:39):
Devon MobleyThis is truly just a facilitation of funds with the lightest possible amount of work in the middle. Like, in other words, we're trying to make sure that the fewest amount of steps are between that patient and their transaction and the provider providing the services.
Devon MobleyAnd then, of course, we want to be able to work with employers. So, there are—we did build into our platform tools to be able to associate patients who are searching for care with an employer plan and work side by side with, you know, direct primary care and other first level options as well as brokers and employers TPA's who are in the sort of benefits side of things.
(30:12):
Devon MobleySo, that's Alora in a nutshell.
Wayne LowryYeah, let's dive into—or let's kind of look at—each of those segments one by one and maybe discuss some of the benefits of it. Like looking at an employer group, for instance, what's the benefit for an employer group to utilize this software?
Devon MobleyYeah, absolutely. So, the biggest benefit that we see being able to provide employers is if you're an employer, especially whenever you are—well, let's just take for example, just the general broad economics of it, right? More and more, we're seeing employers looking for more affordable healthcare options.
(30:53):
Devon MobleyYou know, unless you have a super high acuity population within your employee base—and those do exist. Those commercials full insurance makes total sense for those people. But a lot of small businesses gotta find a way to save some money somewhere.
Devon MobleyAnd if you're providing health insurance benefits, you might be looking at a level-funded, partially self-funded, or a fully self-funded option with a broker or whatever. And what we wanna be able to provide is—again—another one of those first level options so that like a TPA would work with one of your employees or whatever.
(31:32):
Devon MobleyLet's coordinate. What's the best option for you? What's going to be the lowest cost? But you know, an intersection of lowest cost with the best sort of outcomes and ratings and those sorts of things.
Devon MobleySo, from an employer perspective, I think it's really just a matter of if you can have the access to where your employees are accessing cash pay rates, then you're ultimately going to save money, and that translates to really important downstream effects for small businesses across the United States, right? So that's how I see it, Jonathan. I don't know if you add anything to that.
(32:02):
Jonathan MinsonYeah, I mean I think that what we're seeing here is a confluence of different incentives that have come together at the right time. You mentioned employers, they have a fiduciary duty there. There have been lawsuits in the last two years against employers that have let their health costs get out of control. And you know, we mentioned earlier, the free Market Medical Association, we're proud members—we’re sponsors.
Jonathan MinsonFact—shout out—if any of the audience are gonna be in Oklahoma City caveat, we’ll have a table at the conference, come talk to us.
(32:27):
Jonathan MinsonBut one of their pillars is transparent and clear pricing. A lot of times, you end up with these pricing structures that sound great, but they create negative incentives. One classic example in the broker world is: “We will save you a percentage,” or, “We will charge you only what we save you.”
Jonathan MinsonWell. that sounds great. I don't have to pay unless I save money, but that creates a negative incentive where we can let prices continue to creep up or maybe we don't negotiate contracts to the best of our ability because we're OK with higher prices because maybe I can let that price go up then bring it down and charge you a percentage of that savings.
(33:01):
Jonathan MinsonSo, employers have a fiduciary duty to their employees to take care of their money. This is, I mean, we're managing your health, you work for us, but you're part of our group and we wanna look after your best interests.
Jonathan MinsonSo, employers have a lot of downward pressure to get these costs down.
Jonathan MinsonProviders are up against a completely different set of struggles. They're dealing with pre-certification and benefits verification. And it may be 3 or 4 weeks before they can even get you scheduled because they're waiting on United or Blue Cross Blue Shield or Cigna or Anthem or you name them to even approve your test or procedure, or even your specialty office.
(33:39):
Jonathan MinsonAnd then when you actually get in, you may pay a copay and then maybe another nine weeks before you even get paid and providers are of the mindset saying, “We'll post our prices. If you can pay us—same day, like you would for any other service in the world.” Can you imagine a restaurant working like this? Where I gotta file 3 weeks in advance to get pre-certified to go eat and then when I get there, I pay a little bit of my copay and I say, “You'll see the rest of the check in nine weeks.” No sane business does this.
(34:09):
Jonathan MinsonBut it's what providers are forced to do. So you have providers saying, “Hey, we'll give our cash prices if you can pay us same day.”
Jonathan MinsonYou get employers saying, “Hey, we'll take your cash prices because they're so much lower than our negotiated contracts.” And then, what you need is a technology platform that brings those worlds together. That's Alora. That's why I always call it the “DoorDash of Healthcare”.
Jonathan MinsonI don't—very often, if I want food delivered, if I'm going to order it or pick it up even, I just go to DoorDash. I know that these different restaurants have their own ordering services, but it's a convenient place for me to compare. And you know, maybe I'm feeling like Chinese food or, you know, 20 half portions of, you know, furs, cafeteria, whatever.
(34:51):
Jonathan MinsonThat's what we want to lower it to be. Wayne Lowry That way you can eat twice as much. You can eat twice as much in South Fortune.
Devon MobleyThat's a good strategy.
Jonathan MinsonThat's our strategy, yeah.
Wayne LowryTake a quick break to talk about scalebyseo.com.
Wayne LowryIf you run a direct primary care clinic, you already know the power of patient relationships. But here's the thing, patients can't sign up if they can't find you. That's where Scale by SEO comes in. We help DPC clinics get seen where people are searching. So, you're not just waiting for word of mouth referrals.
(35:20):
Wayne LowryWith the right SEO strategy, your practice becomes the obvious choice. When people are looking for better healthcare options. If you're not showing up where they're searching, you're missing out. Be visible, get found, grow your practice, don't leave growth to chance. Visit scalebyseo.com today and let's get your clinic in front of the right people.
(35:43):
Wayne LowrySo all right, so how does that then? Obviously brokers, you've got the whole insurance industry associated with employer groups. So obviously there's navigating finding the right brokers, TPA's and others that might work with you. There's going direct to employers and again this is a little bit of strategy of where, where and how this gets rolled out. The third piece of this would be the referrals that might come through DPC's as far as their referral base.
(36:16):
Wayne LowrySo if you were going to be talking directly to a DPC or let's just say on a DPC related podcast and wanted to pitch this service to a DPC clinic, that may be referring out hundreds or thousands of services and looking for a streamlined approach? What would be your pitch to them?
(36:43):
Devon MobleyThat's right. Yeah, we see a ton of—I do hate corporate buzzwords bu—synergy with the world of DPC and I think that it kind of comes about in one of two ways now. Your experience, Wayne, might be different and people who are in the world might be different.
Devon MobleyBut not being like specifically from the DPC world, you know, people I know and people even who are really knowledgeable about healthcare, they're not always educated on what direct primary care is or the benefits that it provides.
(37:18):
Devon MobleySo, I think one of the things that Alora can do is we want to connect to primary care as it should be, right? Primary care has a very important function in the healthcare ecosystem and, you know, none of us—even if we were to provide a little bit of guidance on how to go which way or another, that does not replace primary care.
(37:40):
Devon MobleyPrimary care still needs to be the—again—primary place where a patient is getting the clinical advice and sort of diagnostic input, output that just needs to happen. It's just how healthcare should be and when it's done well—when Primary Health is done well, I think that a lot of things downstream do get fixed. So in other words, we see that we want to connect more patients with primary care.
(38:08):
Devon MobleySo whether that's from an employer group who contracts with a direct primary care group to be one of those first level options, or even just from a—I think another component of this is that we do offer sort of direct to patient direct to consumer interface.
Devon MobleySo, you can go to Alora and search for care without necessarily being associated with an employer. I think given the economics that we're talking about, if you don't—if you're an employer or a part of a group or whatever, that isn't necessarily in the know about these cash pay affordable options.
(38:46):
Devon MobleyYou might just think that you are kind of out of luck.
Devon MobleySo, all that to say, if you are looking for care, but maybe you are under-insured—maybe you've opted out entirely. I know people who have done this, who have taken—changed career paths, they take a little bit of pay cut, they have a family and they want to keep those funds, they can't afford their new companies premium split.
(39:15):
Devon MobleySo, they just kind of opt out. Or maybe—and I think that this has been told to me over and over again—more of an opting into the high deductible version of the health plan offering at an employer. So, what I'm trying to say is you have tons of people, whether uninsured or under-insured, who can benefit from connecting with direct primary care clinics and we want to be a direct facilitator in the front door for that and the second component to it—
(39:42):
Wayne LowryLet me ask you a question real quick.
Wayne LowryIf you don’t mind letting me jump in, because you were just mentioning the high deductible health plan. So, you're thinking this might be a product that…say, someone is already—they're offered the insurance product but instead of saying, “Hey, we'll take the $1500 deductible for our family and with the high monthly costs, we’ll take a high deductible of $5000, $10,000 deductible plan, we’ll be a lot lower on our monthly cost and then we can use this product first–use a lower first to then, use that as the means of cash pay to avoid even maybe hitting our out of pocket deductible and out of pocket expense.
(40:27):
Devon MobleyThat's right. I believe—increasingly—you're seeing a sentiment kind of parallel to what Jonathan was describing earlier of the increase in technology and increase in, you know, kind of consumer pressure for certain expectations of businesses, including those in healthcare. I think the parallel that we're going to continue to see is people realizing that they're not getting the value out of health insurance. People already feel this.
(40:54):
Devon MobleyThey already feel this, but we have to be frank about how consumer psychology works with healthcare in the United States. There's a reason why large direct care groups are—and I'm talking more about your large, high-scale ones, they’re acquired by companies like Amazon and Walmart, whatever—why those efforts are not necessarily working. Part of it is the assumption that people want to pay for their healthcare.
(41:24):
Devon MobleyPeople in America—let's not get it wrong—they still want insurance to pay for their health care, but I think increasingly the economics are gonna press them to say, “You know what, I am fed up. I am totally fed up that I'm not getting the value out of this. I don't know if you know this $1500 MRI is going to go towards my 5 or $10,000 deductible. So I would much rather just purely and simply reduce my out of pocket cost by getting a, you know, $300.00 amount MRI or and getting that ordered from a direct primary care physician rather than risk it because that money is important for me month to month.” So, I think we're going to continue to see that and I think that Alora has a really important part to play in that.
(42:04):
Jonathan MinsonYeah, and I want to add on to that with regard to referrals that direct primary care, this helps them create a network of like-minded providers that they can refer within. One of the challenges that independent practices have in DPC clinics is that these large health systems self-refer and they get safe harbor under the stark law. It's a huge competitive disadvantage. I mean, that's talk about regulations that have to change, that's one of ‘em.
(42:29):
Jonathan MinsonI'll give you an example. Last Christmas, a year and a half ago, I was playing football out in the front yard with my nephews and I fell, hurt my rib, went to the doctor, and he said you need an X-ray and this doctor is a member of a large—a very large multi-state health system.
Jonathan MinsonNow, I'm aware of how billing works, so when he told me, “I need you to drive down to the hospital and you go to the second floor and then they'll take your X-ray,” I knew that I was going to get billed at hospital rates, provider-based billing—this is going to be a nightmare and I happened to know that they had an X-ray machine there.
(43:04):
Jonathan MinsonSo I said, “Well, can’t I just go down the hall? We’re not within 300 yards out of the hospital, so you can't bill me those rates.” And he said, “No, the lady who runs the X-ray machine and she's not here.” And I said, “Well, you know, I'm not dying. I can come back when she's here.” And he said, “We don't know when she'll be back.” So you know, I was a good little trooper and I went down to the hospital and got my X-ray like I was told to do. And I knew the whole time that this is a self-referral. This is generating cash. I mean we know this game.
(43:36):
Jonathan MinsonIf I'm a direct primary, I don't have that benefit. I mean, I may be able to do some of these diagnostic tests, but if I'm referring outside, I need people that are going to give me the best price and value for my patient. This is the beauty I think of DPC; it's a holistic look at caring for the patient, not just at this particular moment in time, but I'm looking after your wellness.
Jonathan MinsonAnd there's a line in Marty Macri's book, “The Price We Pay". It plays in my head all the time. It’s that, “Do no harm includes not doing financial harm.”
(44:06):
Jonathan MinsonAnd if I'm caring for my patients and I want to give them—refer them outside of my 4 walls, I want to give them options that aren't going to put them in bankruptcy and that's what we think Alora can bring to DPC as well.
Wayne LowryAwesome. Well, let me ask—a little bit of a shift—really questions directly related to DPC in the future DPC and, you know, like you mentioned with your product, I think there's potentially some opportunity there for some crossover, maybe some referrals and so forth, but really looking at healthcare as an economic engine and healthcare economics…I know, Devin, you said you're kind of interested in that space. What do you think or where do you see cash pay fitting into the future of healthcare in America?
(44:59):
Devon MobleyYeah, it's a great question. I think one, we ought to be thinking about more.
Devon MobleyAnd I think that people in America feel it, but maybe even haven't quite gotten the education that, you know, we have the opportunity to have to put it to words. But I think I alluded to it earlier, whenever I was talking about the just increased cost value gap, right?
(45:24):
Devon MobleySo with health insurance premiums, you're continuing to see a continual gap in what these companies are providing. And you have things like skyrocketing insurance denial rates, you have companies—I'm sure we all saw a little bit of this—trying to use AI and the first thing they're trying to do instead of trying to help patient outcomes or trying to increase denials, right?
(45:53):
Devon MobleyAnd that's just going to continue to be the case. Unfortunately, you know all the technology that Jonathan and I have, the fortune to be able to create and sell to healthcare—those folks are way ahead of us. They're going to continue to be fighting and trying to hold on to the coffers they have. So, I say all that to say that the overall economic picture is I think that costs like—if you're looking from a consumer perspective—cost of living is, you know, rises.
(46:30):
Devon MobleyAnd that includes like base costs that we always talk about: the grocery bill and everything. It's not just things like real estate, right? It's things like everyday things that I'm paying for that feel like they're hitting a growth curve that is unsustainable. So, I do believe that what we're gonna continue to see is that psychological pressure that could create the tipping point over to—this really isn't how it should be.
(46:55):
Devon MobleyPeople talk about how it shouldn't be this way. But now, there's options and I think that's where cash pay is really important because we've talked about how in the past, there's been things like direct contract networks, there's been opportunities to go and to get labs drawn at cash pay rates or go get an MRI or whatever.
Devon MobleyThose places existed, but really what we're talking about is visibility at scale, right? So, I think that that's kinda one of the missing pieces.
(47:25):
Devon MobleyThe other thing I do want to mention, I do know—these large insurance companies, they know that this type of psychology from the consumer perspective is there. I learned about an app that one of them has, currently. That is—it’s an app that comes with a plan that they offer and it's kind of a bolt on to their normal commercial plans, but what happens is, you do something very similar to what we're describing with Alora, but you search—you kind of look around, kind of like you're in network, out network search. But it effectively gives you it. There's no deductible involved, there's no anything but just whatever the price is to you, all copays. And it's all based off of some math that they do on outcomes, cause patient satisfaction and their negotiated rates.
(48:13):
Devon MobleyAnd so, the reason I bring that up is because there are people who are a part of this particular network. They love that app and they love the ability to see that. They feel, they think—it's trying to mimic cash pay purchasing. It's trying to mimic how we would like, Jonathan said, buy food or search for a service from a small business from my home or whatever the case may be. So we know it's there. We know the pieces are in place.
(48:43):
Devon MobleyBut I think—from a broader economic perspective—I just think that overall, we're going to see the pressure at the consumer level, which translates to the small business level. Small business drives this country. And so, that will be kind of like the main drivers for change towards higher usage and adoption of cash pay.
(49:05):
Wayne LowryJonathan, anything to add on that?
Jonathan MinsonWell, I think there's been a lot of positive movement from DC with regard to plaque transparency and this is something—again—that's bipartisan—by a large bipartisan effort. There was a time not long ago that Bernie Sanders and Dave Grohl and Mike Lee, Republican senator from Utah, did a joint concert together to talk about the values of price transparency. So, this is a bipartisan value here and that's a great start.
(49:38):
Jonathan MinsonHealth systems need to post their prices. That should be that—That's common sense. We need to—not only what your cash prices are—we wanna see what you've contracted with your payers because you have a responsibility to the public to make them. In any market, you have a responsibility to make that work. So, that's a really positive sign.
Jonathan MinsonUnfortunately, I don't know what the penalty still is, but I know when the price transparency rules were initially introduced, the fine was $300.00 a day. And that sounds like a lot of money to mere mortals like us. That's not a lot of money to a big health system that wants to hide their prices, and so they just didn't play ball.
(50:12):
Jonathan MinsonAnd so, I do think those penalties are probably going to get steeper. So, that's going to help this cash pay market. Consumers now have a choice to say, “Oh, you know what? By going to this one—the health system, I'm paying 10 times the amount I would if I went to this independent radiology center.” And people need to know that because ultimately, it falls back on consumers to make wise consumer decisions.
(50:35):
Jonathan MinsonUnfortunately, the system is so complicated and so opaque to people, they have no idea what they’re doing whenever they are engaging in some of these practices that have gone on for years.
Jonathan MinsonSo, cash pay is going to pick up steam, in part, because of the new price transparency rules, I believe.
Wayne LowryNow, do you think anything that Trump is discussing right now will have an impact on that progress? Anything, as far as policy changes, shifts, do you see coming in this administration?
(51:04):
Jonathan MinsonWell, I do know that he nominated Marty Makary—McCurdy? I probably said his name wrong—to be head of the FDA. Which Mark? He's a surgeon from Johns Hopkins. He wrote “The Price We Pay” and has been very influential in the price transparency world. And I think he's one of the most important voices when it comes to reforming healthcare.
Jonathan MinsonAnd I I I don't think he has been confirmed through the Senate process yet or I don't know the politics of it. So I don't know how that.
(51:30):
Jonathan MinsonBut it can't happen fast enough, so I don't know if it's the president himself or if it's just some of the people that will be in the administration. But I I think there's room for optimism if you are on the free market cash pay side, in healthcare, we we shall see time will tell. Lobbyists are powerful. But I I I am optimistic that some of the new.
Jonathan MinsonVoices that are in the administration will will have some positive impact.
(51:54):
Wayne LowryWell, they'll probably send like a 19 year old guy that works for Elon Musk. Go to go take a look. That seems to be the the MO, right?
Wayne LowryNow, so who knows? Who knows if Dodge is gonna go after healthcare or not, but interesting. Well, guys, I appreciate it. I do want to have a few moments before we wrap up this podcast to it's a new segment I'm rolling out today called keeping it reels. The concept is that I'm going to ask you some.
Jonathan MinsonYeah, that's right. Yeah, that's.
(52:23):
Wayne LowryShort questions give me give me a 1530 second answer, and if it's a good answer, I will turn it into a viral real slash, TikTok slash X.
Wayne LowryHost. It will be all over the Internets, and if it's bad, if it's bad, it'll only be on this podcast so. So either way, it's going to be heard. So First off, Jonathan, I'm going to ask you this question. What is the most surprising thing you've learned about healthcare?
Devon MobleyThis is terrifying.
(52:54):
Jonathan MinsonThe most surprising thing I've learned about health care is that doctors have no control anymore.
Jonathan MinsonDoctors do not run health care. It's run by 4 year degree administrators.
Jonathan MinsonYou want me to elaborate?
Wayne LowryNo, that's good. That's like 1015 seconds. Perfect. Devin, I'm actually the same question. What's the most surprising thing you've learned about healthcare?
(53:16):
Devon MobleyI think the most surprising thing I've learned is that you know you have this.
Devon MobleyI've always had this perception of healthcare and doctors. You just realize that they're just people, there's there's bad doctors, there's, you know, people trying to just just only make money out their patients. And then there's good ones. But overall, I've also been pleasantly surprised that there's a lot of good people in healthcare.
(53:39):
Wayne LowryAwesome. Devin, I'm gonna come right back to you with another question. This question is if you had a magic wand wand. Excuse me? Let let me ask that again. If you had a magic wand and you could fix one healthcare problem instantly, what would it be?
Devon MobleyI know that there's a myriad of one we could choose from, but Jonathan, the one I would choose is I would waive the ones such that our the EHR companies were forced to open up interoperability so that technology companies like us can integrate with them very quickly and easily and.
(54:15):
Devon MobleyLow cost.
Wayne LowryJonathan, same question. If you had a magic wand and you could fix one healthcare problem, what would it be?
Jonathan MinsonSite neutral payments whenever I get a procedure, it doesn't matter if I did it at a hospital or an independent clinic, the reimbursement should be the same.
Wayne LowryAwesome. Thanks guys. One more question and then we'll wrap up this segment. What is 1 tip you would give to any startup that's trying to make it?
(54:46):
Wayne LowryIn this world.
Wayne LowryJonathan.
Jonathan MinsonSpend time sitting behind the operators of healthcare and watch what they do, that you you will learn in no other way. You can read all the books in the world. You've got to sit.
Jonathan MinsonAnd watch people doing the work.
Wayne LowryDevin, same question.
Devon MobleyYeah. My biggest piece of advice is try to sell. So I think in the technology world, we get so caught up in creating the products and the thing that we're selling that just connecting with people and building relationships and understanding their problems goes a long, long way. It short circuits a lot of problems.
(55:22):
Wayne LowryWell, there you go. That's a wrap for today's episode of the Best DPC Podcast, the world's number one spot for all Things Direct primary care. I do want to thank our tech geniuses, Jonathan Minson and Devin Mobley, for dropping some serious knowledge on us and giving us the inside scoop on Alora health.
Wayne LowryWe believe it will be a game changer for cash pay, healthcare, check out their website. So let me ask real quick guys. How can people get in touch with you?
(55:54):
Devon MobleyYou can find us at calvin.com that contact goes to allofusdevin@callian.com. I'm also on LinkedIn pretty frequently, so please connect.
Jonathan MinsonJonathan@calvent.com and I should also say Alora dot health. That's ALORA dot health. You'll see a lot more information coming in the coming days on that website.
Wayne LowryAwesome. We'll put, we'll make sure to have that website in the show notes so that everyone who is listening or watching this can find it themselves. Don't forget if you had as much fun as I did, go over to bestepc.com for more DPC goodness and resource.
(56:30):
Wayne LowryThis is we want to keep this conversation going, so follow us on social media for the latest updates, and don't forget to subscribe to our YouTube channel and whatever you listen to podcasts, we're there. So just download the episode wherever you listen to your podcast and we will be back and give you more.
Wayne LowryGreat DPC knowledge. Until next time this is Wayne Lowry signing off. Remember, your health matters demand the best direct primary care. Bye, bye.
Wayne LowrySo have you thought about grounding? I feel like we're repeating a conversation from the past.
(00:06):
Devon MobleyYeah.
Wayne LowryTell me your thoughts on grounding.
Devon MobleySo if you have a standing desk. You must definitely do yoga and compost.
Wayne LowryCold plunge.
Devon MobleyYeah.
Wayne LowryYou got to cold plunge every day. If you have a standing desk, you definitely cold plunge.
Jonathan MinsonDevin is into. Yeah, he's into cold therapy. I know that. We talked about this.
(00:27):
Jonathan MinsonI was into it for a while and I gave up on it.
Wayne LowryYou gave up on it? Why are you a quitter?
Jonathan MinsonI was expecting to drop 50 lbs and it didn't happen. So why subject myself to that torment?
Devon MobleyNo, I just used it to wake me up in the morning. That's pretty much it for me.
Wayne LowryYou know how I wake myself up in the morning?
Wayne LowryRight here. Nice cup of coffee
Jonathan MinsonYeah, and in the afternoon.
(00:49):
Devon MobleyYeah, exactly. Let me tell you something. I need all of the tools to wake me up all the time. I'm a tired, tired boy.
Wayne LowryHello and welcome to the Best DPC podcast, The World's #1 podcast covering all topics related to direct primary care. I am your host, Wayne Lowry. No, I am not a doctor, but I will prescribe you all the fun you can stand.
(01:23):
Wayne LowryJoining me today is two tech geniuses, Jonathan Minson, CEO of Calvient, and Devin Mobley, self-proclaimed tech wizard and product guru, which we will be the judge of that.
Wayne LowryWe are excited to have them today and also just a little note for our audience today, they're gonna be revealing a brand new product never before announced. So we're very excited that they chose the Best DPC podcast to make that announcement.
(01:54):
Wayne LowryTake that, Joe Rogan. I know you think you're the bomb diggity, but we get breaking news right here. So there you go. So excited to have you guys. The Best DPC podcasts, Breaking news and Breaking Hearts since 2025. So welcome guys.
Jonathan MinsonGlad to be here.
Devon MobleyThank you so much for having us.
(02:16):
Wayne LowrySo before we get into the big stuff, as much as I'd like to just rip off the Band-Aid and just jump into the meat of the conversation, I want the audience to have a chance to kind of get to know you guys. Jonathan, I've known you for a few years, some 20 years. I believe.
Jonathan MinsonMm-hmm.
Wayne LowryDevin. I met you a couple of weeks ago, and I judged you instantly. As being one of those guys that that cold plunges and gets grounded every morning with his bare feet in the grass while doing yoga. And I mean, I don't know if that's true, but that's what I'm gonna put out there for the entire audience.
(02:38):
Devon MobleyFair enough.
Devon MobleySure.
Devon MobleyIt's fine with me as much as I'd like to fight you on it. Maybe some of those stereotypes stick.
Wayne LowryOK.
Jonathan MinsonIt's mostly true.
(03:00):
Wayne LowryMostly true?
Jonathan MinsonI've known Devin for a long time. I'd say, it's like 70% true.
Wayne LowryWell, so both of you guys are based in Oklahoma, correct?
Jonathan MinsonCorrect.
Jonathan MinsonOklahoma City. Wayne Lowry That's right, both Oklahoma City. So let me ask, I guess the most important and pressing question. I can see the highlights of a logo on your shirt there. Jonathan, are you an OU fan?
(03:22):
Jonathan MinsonI am an OU fan like most people in this area. This shirt was a gift to me. I didn't go to OU, which I know there's a stigma about people wearing OU gear when they didn't go to the school. But I love OU since I was a kid, this was given to me as a gift and I love it. It's a great shirt. I'm mainly in Oklahoma City Thunder fan and Wayne, I know you well enough to know that you're a Rockets fan.
(03:43):
Wayne LowryOK.
Wayne LowryI am a Rockets fan. You are correct there. I like the Rockets. I like the Astros. I like the Texans.
Wayne LowryI like the Houston livestock Show and rodeo. I like Space city. I like all of the things Houston related. No soccer is for quitters. No, I'm not a soccer fan. No. So.
Jonathan MinsonDynamo.
(04:07):
Devon MobleyStrong opinions strongly held.
Wayne LowrySo, but you know what about you, Devon? What are your thoughts on OU and specifically joining the SEC?
Devon MobleySure. So I, unlike Jonathan, did attend the University of Oklahoma, but you know the gates wide open we welcome everyone. So I am actually native Texan, but I moved to Oklahoma City and you know I have been here since 2004.
(04:37):
Devon MobleySo it's pretty much.
Wayne LowryNice. So what made you leave the Lone Star State?
Devon MobleyFamily changes. So my family got their start kind of in the the oil fields of the Texas Panhandle, which is I'm sure you can attest the worst part of the state of Texas. But so we just whenever my family was looking to transition to new lines of work that Oklahoma City was a natural landing spot. It's kind of the close big city to the Panhandle to be honest.
(05:05):
Wayne LowryYeah. Well, I will say there is no bad part of Texas. So if anyone asks, officially my position is there are no bad parts of Texas, in fact.
Devon MobleyHe's trying to one up me with the Texas love.
Wayne LowryWell, I have no choice. So Panhandle of Texas. I lived about six months up in Amarillo and I will say this the coldest winter and the hottest summer of my life were in Amarillo, TX, but that's where my wife was from, so I can't complain. I can't complain too much.
(05:36):
Jonathan MinsonDid you eat the 72 ounce steak, Wayne, have you ever taken a shot at that?
Wayne LowryYou know, we were talking about not wanting to be a quitter. So earlier before the pod, I'm not gonna start a 72 ounce steak when I know I can't do it.
Devon MobleyI gotta say.
Jonathan MinsonYeah. Yeah, that's fair.
Wayne LowryI'm more of like a eating or my skill set when it comes to devouring food is more of like the long approach. I'm more of a marathon runner, like eating all through the day, way too many calories versus that one goal. Not really a sprinter.
(06:07):
Jonathan MinsonYeah.
Sure.
Jonathan MinsonI spent time with Wayne in the summer before he got married and I love to tell this story. We ate a lot together and we actually lived in the same house together for a month and he, you know, he'd always say when we go out to eat that I'm you know I'm watching my weight. I gotta fit into my tux. So he'd order half portions of twice the amount of food.
Wayne LowryYeah, gradle.
(06:32):
Jonathan MinsonEverywhere we went, which I don't know about the math there.
Wayne LowryHey, it's all psychological warfare.
Wayne LowryIt's psychological together. Jonathan Minson Yeah. So yeah, I guess.
Wayne LowrySo if you order half portions then and you you know you can order as much as you want as long as half portion take home the rest. I don't know. It's a win win.
Jonathan MinsonYeah, that's like why I get the milkshake and the Diet Coke.
Jonathan MinsonYou know there's a counteraction there, yeah.
(06:53):
Wayne LowryCancels out. Everybody knows this.
Wayne LowrySo favorite diner or dive in OKC. So next time I'm up there. In fact, I'm thinking about, well, I think I'm gonna be in Tulsa, maybe in a few months at the in that where the free Market Medical Association conferences this year.
Wayne LowryIs that in Tulsa? Devon Mobley Will actually that.
Devon MobleyWill actually be in Oklahoma City this year.
Wayne LowryIt is Oklahoma City sweet, so I may actually get to see you guys in person potentially, as I understand you are gonna be there as well.
(07:21):
Devon MobleyAbsolutely. That's right. That's right.
Wayne LowryUs so when I'm there, since we're talking about food, what's a good dinner or dive someplace that that we can only get there, that you can't get somewhere else and don't say Brahms cause, I mean, like everybody.
Jonathan MinsonYeah, yeah. Devin is, but Devin better answer.
Jonathan MinsonThis question cause I probably would say bro.
Devon MobleySo let let me ask you a follow-up question real quick. So are you like, I want to try, you know, the bacon and eggs or whatever, you know, or hamburger at at anywhere I go or you would semi adventurous?
(07:51):
Wayne LowryI'm pretty adventurous. I mean, I'll. I'll pretty much try anything at least once.
Devon MobleyThe the best restaurant probably in Oklahoma City and it is semi hard to get into is Cafe Cacao. It's a Guatemalan breakfast food restaurant open from 9:00 like you know.
Devon Mobley6:00 AM or whatever to like. Early afternoon. Many people. If you were to look it up or ask around that they that's a common common recommendation and it's hard to find something that people won't love there.
(08:19):
Wayne LowryWell, when I'm up there in a few months or next month, whenever that is, calendars are tough to follow. Whenever that is, I guess you'll be buying me breakfast. I appreciate that. Thanks, Devin.
Wayne LowryFor the offer. Devon Mobley I'd be happy to.
Jonathan MinsonDevin. Yeah, it's on Devin. Devin, I will buy.
Devon MobleyI'll bring my young man.
Jonathan MinsonYou bombs if you're.
Jonathan MinsonInterested. We get Flack of burgers. It's 5.
Jonathan MinsonOurs.
Wayne LowryMaybe I'll just have order 1/2 portion with Devin and that way I'll have room.
(08:43):
Wayne LowryFor a yes.
Wayne LowryHalf of an extra large milkshake with you.
Devon MobleySounds like a good strategy. Yes, absolutely.
Wayne LowryYeah. So to kind of dive in a little bit to a little bit of industry specific conversation, Devin, I understand you started your career as an IT tech in a hospital, is that correct?
(09:04):
Devon MobleyYeah. So you know I mentioned earlier that I graduated from the University of Oklahoma and I, you know, exited and tried to enter the workforce with workforce with a.
Devon MobleyLucrative philosophy degree. So the only skill that I really had to really leverage was that I had built computers, grew up around computers, was really fortunate just frankly happened to have an uncle that was into building computers and gaming and that sort of thing. So.
(09:33):
Devon MobleyLeverage that into an it sort of desktop support role.
Devon MobleyAnd that actually was at the specialty hospital that I met Jonathan at. So the kind of the the without bearing the lead there, I got my start into the software side of technology in, in healthcare all through Jonathan's help. He was my mentor and taught me how to code and and then now Fast forward today and we're we're business partners so.
(09:58):
Devon MobleyThat's kind of the short version of that.
Jonathan MinsonSorry.
Wayne LowrySo you you kind of gravitated more to the IT tech side now Jonathan, you've been involved in working within the hospital industry in the medical industry, healthcare industry for for some time. In fact that that's pretty much been your the focus of your career, correct?
Jonathan MinsonI had one brief stint at a golf course, cleaning, cleaning, golf carts and cooking in the grill, but most of my career has been in healthcare. My first job in healthcare was not in IT. I actually had a couple of healthcare related jobs, one in Medical Records, 1 as a medical assistant.
(10:35):
Jonathan MinsonAnd then one summer, there was an opening in the IT department, and I jumped on it. I loved computers. I kind of thought that's what I wanted to do professionally. And so I made a pivot into into technology. But I actually started on the medical side working with some cardiologists. So that's been my start. And I was fortunate that around that time.
Jonathan MinsonThey the system we were at created a software develop.
(10:58):
Jonathan MinsonTeam I knew how to code. I'd gone to school not at OU, but I went to college with an MIS degree and I helped create that team. We brought in Devin a year or two after that and that really blossomed and grew into something really big and.
Jonathan MinsonSpecial.
Jonathan MinsonAnd around the time around 2020, we kind of were reading the tea leaves and I think we had the edge.
(11:19):
Jonathan MinsonLet's go build something. Let's go start something we've been working for. A system done a lot of great work. Love them and and cherish our time there. But we were ready to to build something new. And so the last few years we've been one other co-founder. But we've been here at Calvin's building some great stuff.
Wayne LowrySo you're building stuff related to tech, right? So let me ask, why is healthcare tech so crazy? Why is it driving so crazy?
(11:43):
Jonathan MinsonYeah, I don't know that I have enough time, but I will try to. I'll lay out a few reasons. So anyone who uses their patient portal, if you have a doctor and they have a patient portal, it's probably my chart by epic or what used to be called IQ health by Oracle or one of the big patient portals. They're horrific.
Jonathan MinsonYou'll get much more mileage out of your bank software out of your video streaming software out of your podcasts. Those are intuitive, great platforms, the best.
(12:12):
Yes.
Jonathan MinsonHealthcare tech, especially facing the consumer is very poor and a lot of this goes back ultimately.
Jonathan MinsonThere's some regulatory decisions that were made in the late 2000s. If you've ever heard of the term meaningful use, what happened was in in 2000, late 2000's, the government created a program to incentivize a well-intentioned program. I should say, to incentivize health systems to implement computer systems.
(12:36):
Jonathan MinsonAnd what unfortunately happens is it essentially locked in technology at 2009 levels, and since then we've seen a robust explosion and all kinds of new tech from mobile to cloud based now to AI. But because of the barriers to entry that were erected by the government and lobbied for by the biggest companies and healthcare technology.
(12:58):
Jonathan MinsonThey know who they are because of that, it's created barriers to entry so that if I had an idea to go build a new electronic health.
Jonathan MinsonRecord Mobile first built on AI all the Great bells and whistles. The amount of the the legal battle to become certified and to be a part of what Medicare calls. The certified EHR technology list to get my Chapel ID. All the things I have to do just to play the game it's it's just way too expensive for any any startup unless you're incredibly well.
(13:26):
Jonathan MinsonFunded or you're a company like Oracle who just just straight up acquired Cerner.
Jonathan MinsonTo get into the.
Jonathan MinsonName and so there's a lot of reasons. A HIPAA, you know, everyone's scared. I think fear has driven a lot of decisions in healthcare technology unfortunately, but it it for a large part, it really goes back to those early days of meaningful use and a well-intentioned regulation that had the effect of really shutting down innovation.
(13:47):
Wayne LowryNo.
Wayne LowryLet let me let me press you on that for a second. So you said it's well-intentioned you. Do you truly believe it was all intention or do you think it was some big groups that had lots of money that wanted to lock it in so they could control the medical?
Wayne LowryHistory.
Jonathan MinsonIt depends who we're talking about. I I do sincerely believe the people.
(14:09):
Jonathan MinsonWho passed it?
Jonathan MinsonThis was the part of the American Investment Recovery Act. The people and, and that that was passed in the Obama years. But it was really talked up during the Bush years as well. So this is a bipartisan effort. This isn't one party versus the other. Both parties were weren't on board with this. I think the people who passed it.
Jonathan MinsonWere well-intentioned because the idea was we want to create a federal program.
(14:30):
Jonathan MinsonTo reward financially systems for implementing these computer systems at that time, a lot of the world was still on paper. They still are. You always hear this joke is that you thought we used a lot of paper. Then we implemented the EHR and we even we use even more paper, but those that was well-intentioned from the legislative bodies, I believe that now the lobbying.
(14:51):
Jonathan MinsonTroops there is no doubt in my mind that that was an effort, especially when they created the OC certification.
Jonathan MinsonThere, that was an effort to create legalized barriers to entry in the healthcare tech world, and that has that has stood the test of time to this day. And so there are some things that you just kind of can't touch as a start up because you're encroaching upon EHR lands and when you're in HR land, you're encroaching on regulatory land. I do believe that was probably.
(15:17):
Jonathan MinsonA lot of self-interest going on and not looking out for the good of the consumer.
Wayne LowrySo we we live in, I don't know if you'll notice or or heard, but we live in a new age, a new era. Things are not exactly the same in DC as they were in 2009. We'll get into some of the what the future might hold, but since we're talking about this is is almost from the standpoint of whose fault is it? And we're looking at.
(15:43):
Wayne LowryThe basically the the culprit that's holding back advancements in healthcare tech. In your mind, Jonathan or or Devin either. Do you still see that this legislation is the number one culprit or are there other things that now have come into play that would really continue?
Wayne LowryTo reinforce.
(16:05):
Wayne LowryLet let's say that let's say that we wave waved a magic wand and the law was changed. What would need to happen to to enter into that space, and who's going to continue to hold us back or hold, you know, America back on on healthcare advance advances in tech.
Jonathan MinsonYeah. The question of who's the bad guy? I mean, it's easy to point fingers and say, well, the payers are the.
(16:29):
Jonathan MinsonThat guy or the big EHR companies or the bad guy and?
Jonathan MinsonThe reality is all. Wayne Lowry You heard it here first. You heard it here. First. The EHR. These are the bad guy. I was waiting for that sound bite. All right. Sorry, Jonathan. Go ahead. Go ahead.
Jonathan MinsonYeah, I know.
Jonathan MinsonYeah, please. Yes, yes, absolutely. It's easy to say they're the bad guy. The reality is everyone is just following incentives. These the incentive structures exist. It started with Medicare. I'm sorry it started with the meaningful use as a part of Medicare. Now it's MIPS. These are just incentive structures. So the the health systems, the HR companies, the payers, they are all just following.
(16:59):
Jonathan MinsonThe set of intents.
Jonathan MinsonAnd and ultimately the consumers have a stake in this as well. And I think one of the realities that the next generation of healthcare leadership has has become aware of is that.
Jonathan MinsonThe younger generation of patients will not put up with bad technology like the older generation would, because they're accustomed to being able to book online to pay my bill online. My my dad, he needed to book an appointment.
(17:25):
Jonathan MinsonAnd what he did is he got in his car and drove to the office and walked in and said, I want to book an appointment. I would never do that if if I talked to a if I called up a doctor's office, which I don't even want to call you, I'd rather fill out a form on your website.
Jonathan MinsonIf I called up with doctor's office and they said yeah, drive down here during business hours, take off from work, we'll get you in.
Jonathan MinsonI would say see, you never talk to them again, and I imagine that people younger than me have even higher standards, so consumer behavior does drive a lot of this. And I do think there's going to become there's going to come a critical mass of young consumers saying we're not gonna deal with these horrible.
(17:59):
Jonathan MinsonSystems and there will be pressure on the health systems from a strictly competitive standpoint to to get their act together. So I don't know that there's a single bad person. Everyone's following incentives, but the the answer to this one, I would love to see a deregulation of of certified EHR technology. But I would also love to see more consumer pressure from patients saying.
Jonathan MinsonEnough is enough.
(18:20):
Wayne LowryYeah, I appreciate that. I want to take a quick break to talk about best pc.com. Are you a doctor looking to break free from the headaches of insurance and take control of you?
Wayne LowryPractice. Or maybe you're an employer searching for an affordable healthcare solution that actually works at best. Dbc.com we cut through the noise and connect you with the country's best direct primary care clinics. Whether you're a patient tired of surprise medical bills or a physician ready to build a thriving membership based practice.
(18:50):
Wayne LowryWe've got the tools and resources you need.
Wayne LowryFind the best CBC doctors near you. Get expert advice and take the first step towards a better healthcare.
Wayne LowryVisit besttvc.com today and see why direct Primary care is the future of medicine. That's bestdpc.com because great healthcare should be simple, affordable, and built around you. Devin, let me switch to you for a second. Actually questioning on the.
(19:15):
Wayne LowrySpace. You've seen the provider side up close, you know, working in that industry and working up up close in that space. What do you think the docs are are facing the most as far as the challenges with with all these regulations and specifically thinking about our audience, the DPC based audience people that are already?
Wayne LowryMaybe frustrated with the traditional healthcare model and are looking at direct primary care from your perspective, what are some of the tech headaches that you think traditional docs are facing and what can be fixed or changed for DPC?
(19:54):
Jonathan MinsonYeah.
Devon MobleyYeah, for sure. I think what I what I primarily see on the provider side is this growing overtime kind of.
Devon MobleyA bit of a boiling frog effect in which these providers are their time with their patients is being taken away, so there's it's like death by 1000 cuts. One cut is that, you know, they're increasingly having to get be more strict in terms of how's my note. Look what codes.
(20:26):
Devon MobleyUsing you know what payer even like, what's my payer mix and kind of being aware of that. So you know thinking of those who are in traditional settings with insurance mixes, but then you add things like, you know, hospital overhead, small business in general.
(20:47):
Devon MobleyAnd just the the the issues that it may that come up when it comes to running and growing and and maintaining a small business and it it's just one thing after another. Jonathan mentioned MIPS that's another piece of regulation that affects particularly small provider practices. And then you have.
Devon MobleyStaff turnover. I just feel like.
(21:10):
Devon MobleyOne of the things that happens is that there's no time, no bandwidth anymore for providers to just sit and be with patients and to be able to then also have time to construct a well thought out, you know, narrative of the the care and and frankly, I think, you know kind of looping tech into this, one of the things that is.
(21:31):
Devon MobleySomewhat to blame.
Devon MobleyIs the fact that we did do what Jonathan mentioned we pushed for these systems to be the source of truth now for people who don't, you know, no technology super well, one of the things that you have to kind of understand and distinguish is that doctors and clinicians and hospitals work.
(21:53):
Devon MobleyOff of what we call unstructured data. So narratives, they're typing out things. They're talking, they're dictating, they're getting information from a conversation like we are right now together.
Devon MobleyBut computer systems are like think you know, just think Excel spreadsheets. They want numbers. They want these little fields that they do one specific thing and they have one kind of label. And you know what it is and you know, up until the age of AI, which is a whole other different conversation to get into, we've not been able to like.
(22:23):
Devon MobleyReally find the right way for those types that type of information to to work together. So why am I saying that? Well, I'm saying that because part of what gets a doctor paid what allows them to, you know, report on their outcomes, report on their measures, do all these various things is.
Devon MobleyIt's partially a clunky workflow for just. I had a really successful patient experience, but now I have to make sure that I'm putting this all in the proper way and I can't make any mistakes. I have a ton of pressure not to make any mistakes, so I think like when the DPC well, I think that there's a fantastic opening and why we've seen such an explosion of that since.
(23:02):
Devon MobleyIn the past, you know.
Devon MobleyHalf a decade or a little more has been partially because I physicians can be physicians again for an office staff can be for an office staff. You know you don't have you know.
Devon MobleyA kind of.
Devon MobleyLike 6 to one billing office to rest of your staff ratio where most of your operation is just figuring out how to get paid. It's simple.
(23:24):
Devon MobleyAnd then that does translate to the software side folks who work in this space for those who didn't know, can provide software that don't follow the types of regulations that Jonathan mentioned earlier. They can provide more open software that is easier to use and just kind of solves the problem, if that makes sense, right.
Jonathan MinsonI'd like to piggyback on that because you're right, this is being enforced through Medicare Part B. If you're out of the Medicare game, you are free, you can get—and go look at some of the EHR's that support direct primary care or other non Medicare, you know domains and the cost is an order of magnitude less.
(24:03):
Jonathan MinsonSo, so much of the cost is because of these certification rules. And you know, I've heard doctors so many times say, “I'm not a coder.” And they mean in the sense, “I'm not coding IC10 codes and I don't wanna treat the computer.”
Jonathan MinsonAnd I've been to doctors where they're treating the computer. I mean, they don't even look at me. They're just clicking, clicking, clicking, and there's really 2 reasons that's happening. One is because of meaningful use and now MIPS and MACRA, which says you've gotta do things like if the patient has sleep apnea, you have to ask them these 10 questions and document them in the chart in very particular ways. So tedious and slow. And that's one of hundreds of different measures that different specialists are having to chase after there's the regulation side.
(24:45):
Jonathan MinsonBut another, maybe even more insidious Nexus of bad incentives comes together on the payer side. Because payers, you know, you wanna up code. I mean we don't like to talk about it, but I want to—in order to get paid as best I can—make my patients look as sick as they possibly can. And that obviously feeds into value based care.
Jonathan MinsonAway from fee for service and some other models that we thought were bad and maybe they were.
(25:10):
Jonathan MinsonBut EHR's made that easy.
Jonathan MinsonAnd I've worked with providers and on the EHR side, so I know these. I've been Privy to these conversations of, “Hey, can you help us see that maybe we could code this patient in such a way that they have a certain condition or meet a certain set of criterias to bump them up into the next level on an E&M charge?” that is—
(25:31):
Jonathan MinsonThat not only has an impact as a consumer that has a population health problem and that we are incentivizing doctors to make patients look sicker so they can get paid more. So there's an unholy alliance of technology and payers coming together to create a really perverse incentive.
Jonathan MinsonAnd that's why doctors that are in the Medicare game are spending so much time on the computer. Now, I gotta be careful. Doctors are not the villains.
(25:58):
Wayne LowryOf course not. Jonathan Minson They are doing what they're told by their administrators to do. Doctors don't like this at all. I mean, they will tell you they hate this, but it's the game they have to play.
Wayne LowryWell, and that's why we see a growing movement of doctors all across America.
Wayne LowryDoctors, nurse practitioners, you know, we see them all jumping into the DPC space because frankly, they have the freedom and flexibility to work in that space where their hands are tied, where they're taking their time, you know, charting on the weekends.
(26:32):
Wayne LowryAnd doing paperwork on their vacation, you know…
Devon MobleyThat's right.
Wayne LowryOpening up their life to be able to be a parent, to be a community member and not just strictly working all the time just to meet up with all those regulations. So that's, I mean, that's a big reason why I've been such a fan of DPC for the last several years is get to experience what these providers and the change it makes for them.
(26:59):
Wayne LowryI mean, in a healthy provider, what does a healthy provider do? It provides healthy outcomes for his patients—his or her patients. And so we're very much in alignment on that. The challenge that, that space.
Wayne LowrySo, Speaking of, I do want to transition if that's OK. We're going to dive into more talk, very specific to DBC in a moment, but I think it's time to make a big reveal and I'd like you guys to talk a little bit about what you're doing now.
(27:32):
Wayne LowryThis new project…let's just jump right in and say, “Alora Health, what is?”
Jonathan MinsonAlora Health—Devin, tell us all about it.
Devon MobleyYeah. So, Alora Health is a platform that we developed that the entire mission of it is to provide accessible and affordable care to anyone who's searching for it. So, imagine a place where you could actually just go. It acts like a shopping cart.
(28:05):
Devon MobleyYou search for—very similar to how you might envision searching for any small business or service you know, geographically located, you're able to see things like ratings and things like that. And then of course, pricing. So, what's the pricing? What does it cost to be able to go see this particular physician or specialist or Physical therapist? Or to buy this particular drug.
(28:31):
Devon MobleySo, it really is—Alora is really, at its heart, a cash pay marketplace platform. And so, without kind of getting too deep into it, but kind of explaining how it works slightly for patients, you can just search for the care that you need and then we also are trying to align the different incentives.
(28:56):
Devon MobleyBased on employers, as well as providers, so the other half of this is we really want to work with providers, people who probably have that awareness, like the DPC audience who you know, they know how hard it is and have been in that those shoes of trying to run a clinic where you're waiting on claims forever.
Devon MobleySo our main goal with Alora is to also be a facilitation platform. So taking those funds, patient pays for a particular service or bundle that goes as soon as possible–day of service–to that provider. So, we are not creating claims or “claims-like” process.
(29:39):
Devon MobleyThis is truly just a facilitation of funds with the lightest possible amount of work in the middle. Like, in other words, we're trying to make sure that the fewest amount of steps are between that patient and their transaction and the provider providing the services.
Devon MobleyAnd then, of course, we want to be able to work with employers. So, there are—we did build into our platform tools to be able to associate patients who are searching for care with an employer plan and work side by side with, you know, direct primary care and other first level options as well as brokers and employers TPA's who are in the sort of benefits side of things.
(30:12):
Devon MobleySo, that's Alora in a nutshell.
Wayne LowryYeah, let's dive into—or let's kind of look at—each of those segments one by one and maybe discuss some of the benefits of it. Like looking at an employer group, for instance, what's the benefit for an employer group to utilize this software?
Devon MobleyYeah, absolutely. So, the biggest benefit that we see being able to provide employers is if you're an employer, especially whenever you are—well, let's just take for example, just the general broad economics of it, right? More and more, we're seeing employers looking for more affordable healthcare options.
(30:53):
Devon MobleyYou know, unless you have a super high acuity population within your employee base—and those do exist. Those commercials full insurance makes total sense for those people. But a lot of small businesses gotta find a way to save some money somewhere.
Devon MobleyAnd if you're providing health insurance benefits, you might be looking at a level-funded, partially self-funded, or a fully self-funded option with a broker or whatever. And what we wanna be able to provide is—again—another one of those first level options so that like a TPA would work with one of your employees or whatever.
(31:32):
Devon MobleyLet's coordinate. What's the best option for you? What's going to be the lowest cost? But you know, an intersection of lowest cost with the best sort of outcomes and ratings and those sorts of things.
Devon MobleySo, from an employer perspective, I think it's really just a matter of if you can have the access to where your employees are accessing cash pay rates, then you're ultimately going to save money, and that translates to really important downstream effects for small businesses across the United States, right? So that's how I see it, Jonathan. I don't know if you add anything to that.
(32:02):
Jonathan MinsonYeah, I mean I think that what we're seeing here is a confluence of different incentives that have come together at the right time. You mentioned employers, they have a fiduciary duty there. There have been lawsuits in the last two years against employers that have let their health costs get out of control. And you know, we mentioned earlier, the free Market Medical Association, we're proud members—we’re sponsors.
Jonathan MinsonFact—shout out—if any of the audience are gonna be in Oklahoma City caveat, we’ll have a table at the conference, come talk to us.
(32:27):
Jonathan MinsonBut one of their pillars is transparent and clear pricing. A lot of times, you end up with these pricing structures that sound great, but they create negative incentives. One classic example in the broker world is: “We will save you a percentage,” or, “We will charge you only what we save you.”
Jonathan MinsonWell. that sounds great. I don't have to pay unless I save money, but that creates a negative incentive where we can let prices continue to creep up or maybe we don't negotiate contracts to the best of our ability because we're OK with higher prices because maybe I can let that price go up then bring it down and charge you a percentage of that savings.
(33:01):
Jonathan MinsonSo, employers have a fiduciary duty to their employees to take care of their money. This is, I mean, we're managing your health, you work for us, but you're part of our group and we wanna look after your best interests.
Jonathan MinsonSo, employers have a lot of downward pressure to get these costs down.
Jonathan MinsonProviders are up against a completely different set of struggles. They're dealing with pre-certification and benefits verification. And it may be 3 or 4 weeks before they can even get you scheduled because they're waiting on United or Blue Cross Blue Shield or Cigna or Anthem or you name them to even approve your test or procedure, or even your specialty office.
(33:39):
Jonathan MinsonAnd then when you actually get in, you may pay a copay and then maybe another nine weeks before you even get paid and providers are of the mindset saying, “We'll post our prices. If you can pay us—same day, like you would for any other service in the world.” Can you imagine a restaurant working like this? Where I gotta file 3 weeks in advance to get pre-certified to go eat and then when I get there, I pay a little bit of my copay and I say, “You'll see the rest of the check in nine weeks.” No sane business does this.
(34:09):
Jonathan MinsonBut it's what providers are forced to do. So you have providers saying, “Hey, we'll give our cash prices if you can pay us same day.”
Jonathan MinsonYou get employers saying, “Hey, we'll take your cash prices because they're so much lower than our negotiated contracts.” And then, what you need is a technology platform that brings those worlds together. That's Alora. That's why I always call it the “DoorDash of Healthcare”.
Jonathan MinsonI don't—very often, if I want food delivered, if I'm going to order it or pick it up even, I just go to DoorDash. I know that these different restaurants have their own ordering services, but it's a convenient place for me to compare. And you know, maybe I'm feeling like Chinese food or, you know, 20 half portions of, you know, furs, cafeteria, whatever.
(34:51):
Jonathan MinsonThat's what we want to lower it to be. Wayne Lowry That way you can eat twice as much. You can eat twice as much in South Fortune.
Devon MobleyThat's a good strategy.
Jonathan MinsonThat's our strategy, yeah.
Wayne LowryTake a quick break to talk about scalebyseo.com.
Wayne LowryIf you run a direct primary care clinic, you already know the power of patient relationships. But here's the thing, patients can't sign up if they can't find you. That's where Scale by SEO comes in. We help DPC clinics get seen where people are searching. So, you're not just waiting for word of mouth referrals.
(35:20):
Wayne LowryWith the right SEO strategy, your practice becomes the obvious choice. When people are looking for better healthcare options. If you're not showing up where they're searching, you're missing out. Be visible, get found, grow your practice, don't leave growth to chance. Visit scalebyseo.com today and let's get your clinic in front of the right people.
(35:43):
Wayne LowrySo all right, so how does that then? Obviously brokers, you've got the whole insurance industry associated with employer groups. So obviously there's navigating finding the right brokers, TPA's and others that might work with you. There's going direct to employers and again this is a little bit of strategy of where, where and how this gets rolled out. The third piece of this would be the referrals that might come through DPC's as far as their referral base.
(36:16):
Wayne LowrySo if you were going to be talking directly to a DPC or let's just say on a DPC related podcast and wanted to pitch this service to a DPC clinic, that may be referring out hundreds or thousands of services and looking for a streamlined approach? What would be your pitch to them?
(36:43):
Devon MobleyThat's right. Yeah, we see a ton of—I do hate corporate buzzwords bu—synergy with the world of DPC and I think that it kind of comes about in one of two ways now. Your experience, Wayne, might be different and people who are in the world might be different.
Devon MobleyBut not being like specifically from the DPC world, you know, people I know and people even who are really knowledgeable about healthcare, they're not always educated on what direct primary care is or the benefits that it provides.
(37:18):
Devon MobleySo, I think one of the things that Alora can do is we want to connect to primary care as it should be, right? Primary care has a very important function in the healthcare ecosystem and, you know, none of us—even if we were to provide a little bit of guidance on how to go which way or another, that does not replace primary care.
(37:40):
Devon MobleyPrimary care still needs to be the—again—primary place where a patient is getting the clinical advice and sort of diagnostic input, output that just needs to happen. It's just how healthcare should be and when it's done well—when Primary Health is done well, I think that a lot of things downstream do get fixed. So in other words, we see that we want to connect more patients with primary care.
(38:08):
Devon MobleySo whether that's from an employer group who contracts with a direct primary care group to be one of those first level options, or even just from a—I think another component of this is that we do offer sort of direct to patient direct to consumer interface.
Devon MobleySo, you can go to Alora and search for care without necessarily being associated with an employer. I think given the economics that we're talking about, if you don't—if you're an employer or a part of a group or whatever, that isn't necessarily in the know about these cash pay affordable options.
(38:46):
Devon MobleyYou might just think that you are kind of out of luck.
Devon MobleySo, all that to say, if you are looking for care, but maybe you are under-insured—maybe you've opted out entirely. I know people who have done this, who have taken—changed career paths, they take a little bit of pay cut, they have a family and they want to keep those funds, they can't afford their new companies premium split.
(39:15):
Devon MobleySo, they just kind of opt out. Or maybe—and I think that this has been told to me over and over again—more of an opting into the high deductible version of the health plan offering at an employer. So, what I'm trying to say is you have tons of people, whether uninsured or under-insured, who can benefit from connecting with direct primary care clinics and we want to be a direct facilitator in the front door for that and the second component to it—
(39:42):
Wayne LowryLet me ask you a question real quick.
Wayne LowryIf you don’t mind letting me jump in, because you were just mentioning the high deductible health plan. So, you're thinking this might be a product that…say, someone is already—they're offered the insurance product but instead of saying, “Hey, we'll take the $1500 deductible for our family and with the high monthly costs, we’ll take a high deductible of $5000, $10,000 deductible plan, we’ll be a lot lower on our monthly cost and then we can use this product first–use a lower first to then, use that as the means of cash pay to avoid even maybe hitting our out of pocket deductible and out of pocket expense.
(40:27):
Devon MobleyThat's right. I believe—increasingly—you're seeing a sentiment kind of parallel to what Jonathan was describing earlier of the increase in technology and increase in, you know, kind of consumer pressure for certain expectations of businesses, including those in healthcare. I think the parallel that we're going to continue to see is people realizing that they're not getting the value out of health insurance. People already feel this.
(40:54):
Devon MobleyThey already feel this, but we have to be frank about how consumer psychology works with healthcare in the United States. There's a reason why large direct care groups are—and I'm talking more about your large, high-scale ones, they’re acquired by companies like Amazon and Walmart, whatever—why those efforts are not necessarily working. Part of it is the assumption that people want to pay for their healthcare.
(41:24):
Devon MobleyPeople in America—let's not get it wrong—they still want insurance to pay for their health care, but I think increasingly the economics are gonna press them to say, “You know what, I am fed up. I am totally fed up that I'm not getting the value out of this. I don't know if you know this $1500 MRI is going to go towards my 5 or $10,000 deductible. So I would much rather just purely and simply reduce my out of pocket cost by getting a, you know, $300.00 amount MRI or and getting that ordered from a direct primary care physician rather than risk it because that money is important for me month to month.” So, I think we're going to continue to see that and I think that Alora has a really important part to play in that.
(42:04):
Jonathan MinsonYeah, and I want to add on to that with regard to referrals that direct primary care, this helps them create a network of like-minded providers that they can refer within. One of the challenges that independent practices have in DPC clinics is that these large health systems self-refer and they get safe harbor under the stark law. It's a huge competitive disadvantage. I mean, that's talk about regulations that have to change, that's one of ‘em.
(42:29):
Jonathan MinsonI'll give you an example. Last Christmas, a year and a half ago, I was playing football out in the front yard with my nephews and I fell, hurt my rib, went to the doctor, and he said you need an X-ray and this doctor is a member of a large—a very large multi-state health system.
Jonathan MinsonNow, I'm aware of how billing works, so when he told me, “I need you to drive down to the hospital and you go to the second floor and then they'll take your X-ray,” I knew that I was going to get billed at hospital rates, provider-based billing—this is going to be a nightmare and I happened to know that they had an X-ray machine there.
(43:04):
Jonathan MinsonSo I said, “Well, can’t I just go down the hall? We’re not within 300 yards out of the hospital, so you can't bill me those rates.” And he said, “No, the lady who runs the X-ray machine and she's not here.” And I said, “Well, you know, I'm not dying. I can come back when she's here.” And he said, “We don't know when she'll be back.” So you know, I was a good little trooper and I went down to the hospital and got my X-ray like I was told to do. And I knew the whole time that this is a self-referral. This is generating cash. I mean we know this game.
(43:36):
Jonathan MinsonIf I'm a direct primary, I don't have that benefit. I mean, I may be able to do some of these diagnostic tests, but if I'm referring outside, I need people that are going to give me the best price and value for my patient. This is the beauty I think of DPC; it's a holistic look at caring for the patient, not just at this particular moment in time, but I'm looking after your wellness.
Jonathan MinsonAnd there's a line in Marty Macri's book, “The Price We Pay". It plays in my head all the time. It’s that, “Do no harm includes not doing financial harm.”
(44:06):
Jonathan MinsonAnd if I'm caring for my patients and I want to give them—refer them outside of my 4 walls, I want to give them options that aren't going to put them in bankruptcy and that's what we think Alora can bring to DPC as well.
Wayne LowryAwesome. Well, let me ask—a little bit of a shift—really questions directly related to DPC in the future DPC and, you know, like you mentioned with your product, I think there's potentially some opportunity there for some crossover, maybe some referrals and so forth, but really looking at healthcare as an economic engine and healthcare economics…I know, Devin, you said you're kind of interested in that space. What do you think or where do you see cash pay fitting into the future of healthcare in America?
(44:59):
Devon MobleyYeah, it's a great question. I think one, we ought to be thinking about more.
Devon MobleyAnd I think that people in America feel it, but maybe even haven't quite gotten the education that, you know, we have the opportunity to have to put it to words. But I think I alluded to it earlier, whenever I was talking about the just increased cost value gap, right?
(45:24):
Devon MobleySo with health insurance premiums, you're continuing to see a continual gap in what these companies are providing. And you have things like skyrocketing insurance denial rates, you have companies—I'm sure we all saw a little bit of this—trying to use AI and the first thing they're trying to do instead of trying to help patient outcomes or trying to increase denials, right?
(45:53):
Devon MobleyAnd that's just going to continue to be the case. Unfortunately, you know all the technology that Jonathan and I have, the fortune to be able to create and sell to healthcare—those folks are way ahead of us. They're going to continue to be fighting and trying to hold on to the coffers they have. So, I say all that to say that the overall economic picture is I think that costs like—if you're looking from a consumer perspective—cost of living is, you know, rises.
(46:30):
Devon MobleyAnd that includes like base costs that we always talk about: the grocery bill and everything. It's not just things like real estate, right? It's things like everyday things that I'm paying for that feel like they're hitting a growth curve that is unsustainable. So, I do believe that what we're gonna continue to see is that psychological pressure that could create the tipping point over to—this really isn't how it should be.
(46:55):
Devon MobleyPeople talk about how it shouldn't be this way. But now, there's options and I think that's where cash pay is really important because we've talked about how in the past, there's been things like direct contract networks, there's been opportunities to go and to get labs drawn at cash pay rates or go get an MRI or whatever.
Devon MobleyThose places existed, but really what we're talking about is visibility at scale, right? So, I think that that's kinda one of the missing pieces.
(47:25):
Devon MobleyThe other thing I do want to mention, I do know—these large insurance companies, they know that this type of psychology from the consumer perspective is there. I learned about an app that one of them has, currently. That is—it’s an app that comes with a plan that they offer and it's kind of a bolt on to their normal commercial plans, but what happens is, you do something very similar to what we're describing with Alora, but you search—you kind of look around, kind of like you're in network, out network search. But it effectively gives you it. There's no deductible involved, there's no anything but just whatever the price is to you, all copays. And it's all based off of some math that they do on outcomes, cause patient satisfaction and their negotiated rates.
(48:13):
Devon MobleyAnd so, the reason I bring that up is because there are people who are a part of this particular network. They love that app and they love the ability to see that. They feel, they think—it's trying to mimic cash pay purchasing. It's trying to mimic how we would like, Jonathan said, buy food or search for a service from a small business from my home or whatever the case may be. So we know it's there. We know the pieces are in place.
(48:43):
Devon MobleyBut I think—from a broader economic perspective—I just think that overall, we're going to see the pressure at the consumer level, which translates to the small business level. Small business drives this country. And so, that will be kind of like the main drivers for change towards higher usage and adoption of cash pay.
(49:05):
Wayne LowryJonathan, anything to add on that?
Jonathan MinsonWell, I think there's been a lot of positive movement from DC with regard to plaque transparency and this is something—again—that's bipartisan—by a large bipartisan effort. There was a time not long ago that Bernie Sanders and Dave Grohl and Mike Lee, Republican senator from Utah, did a joint concert together to talk about the values of price transparency. So, this is a bipartisan value here and that's a great start.
(49:38):
Jonathan MinsonHealth systems need to post their prices. That should be that—That's common sense. We need to—not only what your cash prices are—we wanna see what you've contracted with your payers because you have a responsibility to the public to make them. In any market, you have a responsibility to make that work. So, that's a really positive sign.
Jonathan MinsonUnfortunately, I don't know what the penalty still is, but I know when the price transparency rules were initially introduced, the fine was $300.00 a day. And that sounds like a lot of money to mere mortals like us. That's not a lot of money to a big health system that wants to hide their prices, and so they just didn't play ball.
(50:12):
Jonathan MinsonAnd so, I do think those penalties are probably going to get steeper. So, that's going to help this cash pay market. Consumers now have a choice to say, “Oh, you know what? By going to this one—the health system, I'm paying 10 times the amount I would if I went to this independent radiology center.” And people need to know that because ultimately, it falls back on consumers to make wise consumer decisions.
(50:35):
Jonathan MinsonUnfortunately, the system is so complicated and so opaque to people, they have no idea what they’re doing whenever they are engaging in some of these practices that have gone on for years.
Jonathan MinsonSo, cash pay is going to pick up steam, in part, because of the new price transparency rules, I believe.
Wayne LowryNow, do you think anything that Trump is discussing right now will have an impact on that progress? Anything, as far as policy changes, shifts, do you see coming in this administration?
(51:04):
Jonathan MinsonWell, I do know that he nominated Marty Makary—McCurdy? I probably said his name wrong—to be head of the FDA. Which Mark? He's a surgeon from Johns Hopkins. He wrote “The Price We Pay” and has been very influential in the price transparency world. And I think he's one of the most important voices when it comes to reforming healthcare.
Jonathan MinsonAnd I I I don't think he has been confirmed through the Senate process yet or I don't know the politics of it. So I don't know how that.
(51:30):
Jonathan MinsonBut it can't happen fast enough, so I don't know if it's the president himself or if it's just some of the people that will be in the administration. But I I think there's room for optimism if you are on the free market cash pay side, in healthcare, we we shall see time will tell. Lobbyists are powerful. But I I I am optimistic that some of the new.
Jonathan MinsonVoices that are in the administration will will have some positive impact.
(51:54):
Wayne LowryWell, they'll probably send like a 19 year old guy that works for Elon Musk. Go to go take a look. That seems to be the the MO, right?
Wayne LowryNow, so who knows? Who knows if Dodge is gonna go after healthcare or not, but interesting. Well, guys, I appreciate it. I do want to have a few moments before we wrap up this podcast to it's a new segment I'm rolling out today called keeping it reels. The concept is that I'm going to ask you some.
Jonathan MinsonYeah, that's right. Yeah, that's.
(52:23):
Wayne LowryShort questions give me give me a 1530 second answer, and if it's a good answer, I will turn it into a viral real slash, TikTok slash X.
Wayne LowryHost. It will be all over the Internets, and if it's bad, if it's bad, it'll only be on this podcast so. So either way, it's going to be heard. So First off, Jonathan, I'm going to ask you this question. What is the most surprising thing you've learned about healthcare?
Devon MobleyThis is terrifying.
(52:54):
Jonathan MinsonThe most surprising thing I've learned about health care is that doctors have no control anymore.
Jonathan MinsonDoctors do not run health care. It's run by 4 year degree administrators.
Jonathan MinsonYou want me to elaborate?
Wayne LowryNo, that's good. That's like 1015 seconds. Perfect. Devin, I'm actually the same question. What's the most surprising thing you've learned about healthcare?
(53:16):
Devon MobleyI think the most surprising thing I've learned is that you know you have this.
Devon MobleyI've always had this perception of healthcare and doctors. You just realize that they're just people, there's there's bad doctors, there's, you know, people trying to just just only make money out their patients. And then there's good ones. But overall, I've also been pleasantly surprised that there's a lot of good people in healthcare.
(53:39):
Wayne LowryAwesome. Devin, I'm gonna come right back to you with another question. This question is if you had a magic wand wand. Excuse me? Let let me ask that again. If you had a magic wand and you could fix one healthcare problem instantly, what would it be?
Devon MobleyI know that there's a myriad of one we could choose from, but Jonathan, the one I would choose is I would waive the ones such that our the EHR companies were forced to open up interoperability so that technology companies like us can integrate with them very quickly and easily and.
(54:15):
Devon MobleyLow cost.
Wayne LowryJonathan, same question. If you had a magic wand and you could fix one healthcare problem, what would it be?
Jonathan MinsonSite neutral payments whenever I get a procedure, it doesn't matter if I did it at a hospital or an independent clinic, the reimbursement should be the same.
Wayne LowryAwesome. Thanks guys. One more question and then we'll wrap up this segment. What is 1 tip you would give to any startup that's trying to make it?
(54:46):
Wayne LowryIn this world.
Wayne LowryJonathan.
Jonathan MinsonSpend time sitting behind the operators of healthcare and watch what they do, that you you will learn in no other way. You can read all the books in the world. You've got to sit.
Jonathan MinsonAnd watch people doing the work.
Wayne LowryDevin, same question.
Devon MobleyYeah. My biggest piece of advice is try to sell. So I think in the technology world, we get so caught up in creating the products and the thing that we're selling that just connecting with people and building relationships and understanding their problems goes a long, long way. It short circuits a lot of problems.
(55:22):
Wayne LowryWell, there you go. That's a wrap for today's episode of the Best DPC Podcast, the world's number one spot for all Things Direct primary care. I do want to thank our tech geniuses, Jonathan Minson and Devin Mobley, for dropping some serious knowledge on us and giving us the inside scoop on Alora health.
Wayne LowryWe believe it will be a game changer for cash pay, healthcare, check out their website. So let me ask real quick guys. How can people get in touch with you?
(55:54):
Devon MobleyYou can find us at calvin.com that contact goes to allofusdevin@callian.com. I'm also on LinkedIn pretty frequently, so please connect.
Jonathan MinsonJonathan@calvent.com and I should also say Alora dot health. That's ALORA dot health. You'll see a lot more information coming in the coming days on that website.
Wayne LowryAwesome. We'll put, we'll make sure to have that website in the show notes so that everyone who is listening or watching this can find it themselves. Don't forget if you had as much fun as I did, go over to bestepc.com for more DPC goodness and resource.
(56:30):
Wayne LowryThis is we want to keep this conversation going, so follow us on social media for the latest updates, and don't forget to subscribe to our YouTube channel and whatever you listen to podcasts, we're there. So just download the episode wherever you listen to your podcast and we will be back and give you more.
Wayne LowryGreat DPC knowledge. Until next time this is Wayne Lowry signing off. Remember, your health matters demand the best direct primary care. Bye, bye.
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