BeTempered Episode 59 Part 1 – Battling Insecurity, Answering God’s Call, and Moving to One of the World’s Most Dangerous Places - BeTempered

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, my name is Allie Schmidt.
This is my dad, Dan.
He owns Catron's Glass.

Speaker 2 (00:04):
Thanks, allie.
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(00:26):
Kitchen's best.
The clear choice.

Speaker 3 (00:30):
Welcome to the Be Tempered Podcast, where we
explore the art of findingbalance in a chaotic world.
Join us as we delve intoinsightful conversations,
practical tips and inspiringstories to help you navigate
life's ups and downs with graceand resilience.
We're your hosts, dan Schmidtand Ben Spahr.
Let's embark on a journey tolive our best lives.

Speaker 4 (00:50):
This is Be Tempered.
Jesus, we thank you so much foryour love, mercy and grace.
Thank you for your presence inthis place.
Holy Spirit, just have your wayin our words, in our time,
anoint this conversation thatnot only would it be uplifting
and life-giving to each one ofus here, but to everyone you

(01:12):
want to share it with, toeveryone you want to talk to, to
everyone you want to touch.
So, jesus, I just thank you.
We lay this podcast down, welay our lives, we lay down just
everything we have and we justask that you have your way here.
Thank you for all the technicaldetails and everything that has

(01:33):
to get recorded and done justgoes so smoothly and you just
guide our conversations throughpeace, and we love you and we're
so grateful in your holy,precious name, amen, amen.

Speaker 3 (01:44):
Amen.

Speaker 4 (01:45):
That wasn't that hard .
So it was funny.
I was actually at a prayerthing last night and they did
requests and you know whatever,and so I got a ton of travel
coming up with my kids and chaosand stuff.
And so I asked and then therewas this kid there.
I say kid, he's probably like25, but there's a kid and he was

(02:06):
an intern when I worked hereand so the director Keith was
like hey, eli, you pray for him?
And I was like better, be good.
And he's like okay, no pressure, oh, that's awesome.

Speaker 3 (02:18):
Well, what's up everybody.
Welcome to the be temperedpodcast episode number 59, 59.
Today's guest is someone whodidn't just preach faith.
He lived it with boldness.
He lives it with boldness andsacrifice.
Pastor Jeff Travis, along withhis wife Elizabeth, helped lead
and grow the Eaton campus of theCommunity of Faith Church

(02:40):
starting in 2014.
Pouring into their local Ohiocommunity which we'll find was
new to them, with a passion andconnection for discipleship and
spiritual growth.
But their journey didn't stopthere.
In 2022, the Travis family tooka step of radical obedience.
They left behind comfort,security and familiarity in the

(03:01):
US and moved to one of the mostdangerous regions in the world
for human trafficking theThailand-Mainmar border.
Did I say that right?
Yeah, that's good.
There they're partnered withLife Impact International and
now lead efforts through NewLife Commission, bringing hope,
healing and the love of Jesusand displaced families, at-risk
children and survivors ofexploitation.

(03:22):
This isn't just a story ofglobal missions.
It's a story of trust sayingyes when the call costs
everything.
Jeff, wow, it's an honor tohave you here, man.

Speaker 4 (03:33):
Well, now I feel like it's an honor.
I feel like I just need you tointro every morning of my life
and I'm like oh this is amazing.
Just set the alarm to thatright.
Can I have that just recorded?
I'll wake up.
I can do it, you know, I'm goodenough, smart enough and
doggone it.
People like me, you know.

Speaker 3 (03:54):
Yeah, you know, I try my best.
I did all that research on theinternet and searched your name
and then it just spit that out.

Speaker 4 (04:01):
Wow, that's amazing.
You know, if you Google my face, the only picture comes up.
I have a pink Mohawk type thinggoing on, really.
Yeah, I was a youth pastor andI lost about my youth group and
I had to dye my hair and it wasneon pink for a whole week of
camp, and so you didn't stickwith it.
No, oddly enough, I didn't.
What was really funny was theperson I at the time I was

(04:23):
working at a really conservativechurch shirt tie 90% of the
people are old and I got it diedon a Friday, but that that
Sunday I had to lead worship andso before church the pastor had
to get up and like explain, youknow, like, by the way, he's
not off his rocker, it's for theyouth, it's for the kids, you
know, like he got them 25 to goto camp and now he has pink hair

(04:45):
, you know but that's whathappens when you lose a bet it's
, it's yeah, I blame my wife,because at first I was just
gonna have to wear pink shirtsall week and she's like no, get
the hair.

Speaker 3 (04:55):
Thanks, honey well, man, we appreciate you making
the trek all the way fromthailand just yeah, you know
it's worth it.

Speaker 4 (05:02):
We took, uh, 35 hours of travel and it was really
great.
Spent nine hours in Seoul,korea, which was really fun with
three little kids.
Yeah, but it was awesome.
And so, yeah, no, I love you,but this is the blessed bonus.

Speaker 3 (05:22):
That's right, man.
Yesterday we spent a littletime together.
Got to hear your story becauseyou know we knew each other.
We were in Rotary together andbeen involved in different
community events throughout thepast.
What nine, ten years that youwere here?

Speaker 4 (05:35):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (05:36):
In the area, but I didn't know your story and boy,
you had me thinking all dayyesterday.

Speaker 4 (05:44):
I kind of felt bad.
I was like, oh boy, you had methinking all day yesterday.
I kind of felt bad.
I was like, oh man, this islike a fire, cause you know how
do you condense a it's hard tocondense a life.
And then, uh, I've had a uniqueopportunities, we'll say, to uh
just have some uh interestinghighlights, and just things go
on, cause you, we all think ourstory is normal, cause it's all
we know, you know.
And then, because of myposition as pastor and different

(06:06):
things, I've gotten to hearother people's stories and so
you kind of see where what'swhat's norm, what's not norm,
and so there's a couple ofthings in my story, in my life
and in our journey that justkind of, I guess, stray from
common, I guess you could say acouple a couple.
It's pretty powerful a couple ofdecades.

Speaker 3 (06:27):
And you call it opportunities.
I would call it a calling.

Speaker 4 (06:30):
Well, yeah, I, I think so I don't.
I don't know any other.
You know it's.
It's kind of how you'reprogrammed you don't know what
else to do.
You don't know what else to tobe.
Eventually, you just, you justhave to, you follow the best you
can and but yeah, no, it's,it's a calling I, I, I don't
know what else I do.
I think we were talking onetime um Elizabeth.

(06:52):
My wife and I were just hashing.
It was one of the hard days andwe're, you know like, well,
shoot, let's quit.
Like what else are we going todo?
And yeah, I really suck ateverything else.
Like I don't know what I woulddo.
Like she's a nurse, she haslike a degree, you know, she has
education.
I can talk, like you know, butI know how to minister and

(07:16):
somebody's like you could doreal estate.
I'm like, yeah, it sounds likea lot of paperwork though, you
know like all right, man.

Speaker 3 (07:23):
Well, people want to hear this story.
So how we start every podcastjust like we did yesterday when
you and I were talking is startfrom childhood, start from the
beginning, and let's hear whatlife was like for you growing up
in the stinky state of Michigan.

Speaker 4 (07:41):
Well, it was a warm summer night, may 29th 1982, at
four 30 in the morning.
I was born 10 pounds, sixounces, 23 inches long, my poor
mother.
And then I got difficult.
No, I, I grew up in a Northernsuburb of Detroit, royal Oak,
michigan, and if you knowanything about Royal Oak now I

(08:02):
like to say we, we, we livedthere before.
It was cool Cause now it's verytrendy.
My parents bought their housefor like $36,000.
And now every street on thehouse has been torn down,
rebuilt, and there are hundredsof thousands.
It's ridiculous, but they stilllive there since 1980.
And they bought the house, andso it's crazy.
My dad was an engineer.

(08:24):
My mom was a nurse.
We grew up middle, lower middleclass, kind of just pretty chill
, pretty average.
I loved, I love my neighborhood.
I say I grew up and leave it tobe, because I don't know how to
describe it Like I rememberhaving block parties.
Once a year We'd shut down thestreet you know suburb
neighborhood and we'd have avolleyball net across the road
and we'd have a barbecue in themiddle of the road and it was

(08:45):
the one time a year I wasallowed to drive in the street
with my bike.
So I thought that was thecoolest.
Um, but it was.
It was very uh, it was verychill, it was very wholesome.
From what I knew, you know, Imean it was all I knew, uh, but
it was.
It was a nice, tight littlecommunity.
I grew up.
We like to go camping, we liketo go, we travel up North
Michigan, northern Michigan'sbeautiful lake house cottage,

(09:10):
that kind of thing.
My grandparents, I have oneolder brother.
He's five years older than me.
He is defined as one of thenicest humans on the planet,
which is really fun, because mywhole life in elementary,
because we went to the sameschools, you know.
But I just came five yearslater and so I would get
teachers and they're like, oh,you're craig travis's brother,

(09:30):
he was the nicest boy.
And then they just kind of lookat me like this is not going to
be the same, and I'm like, yeah, thanks, okay, you know, um,
and, and so when I was two just,uh, random things I spent my
second birthday in the hospital.
I was diagnosed I don't know howthat works with asthma, and so
we used to camp all the time,and so not long after that my
parents had to go from tentcamping to.

(09:52):
We bought a pop-up Coleman 1986with the Astro minivan.
It was great, I was telling himyesterday we actually still
camped in that same Coleman.
I took my kids in that sameColeman, um, camping, although
it was kind of rough, we, we,literally it was like the
hottest summer ever here.
So we took like a window unitand just like stuck it against

(10:14):
the wall from the outside tolook back.
I got like two by fours, jimmyrigged, you know, just to try
and not die.
Um, but, uh, but I grew up justcamping and everything.
When I was, uh, when I was inabout second grade, second grade
going to school, elementaryschool life, uh, they started
noticing some issues.
So I was diagnosed learningdisabled in reading and spelling

(10:38):
.
Now, nobody, this is, this isthe eighties.
I don't think if you go nowthey have very different
skillsets, but I don't think wehad a lot of skills sets then to
explain things, to understandthings, to figure things out.
I and nobody really talked tome.
You know, I mean I'm coming outof the generation where, like
my parents, were seen, not heard.
You know, I can remember my dadtelling stories about being kid

(11:01):
.
You go somewhere, like they govisit someone, and he and his
sisters would literally just siton the couch and be quiet and
the grownups would talk and thegrownups would go do the thing
and they literally just had tosit there and be like that was
life, and so I don't think theyknew how to explain to a seven
year old.
Hey, we don't know why youcan't read, but I can remember
I'm sitting next to this kid inclass one day I think this is in

(11:24):
third grade now and his name isTim Kirkman and I remember
looking and we had spellingwords and I just remember so
clearly like he had violin and Ihad like cat and I was like,
well, that's not the same, likeI was going to like something's
different.
But I got pulled out of recessfor a whole season in second
grade, which was, you know, notfun, because I was the ADHD kid

(11:46):
who had too much energy to knowwhat to do with, and I would sit
in a room alone with thisteacher who was working on their
like special ed degree and itreally pushed me in a really bad
way because I I didn't have theskills and nobody seemed to
around me have the skills totell me what was happening and
why.
Because I wasn't I wasn'tlabeled dyslexic, you know,

(12:08):
because a lot of times I wastold like you see the letters
backward.
No, I see, I see what, you see,it's just not working,
something's not connecting andso, um, I actually started to
assume it was my fault.
I started to assume I wasstupid and a failure.
I started to assume all thesethings and nobody, nobody in my
life, was able to give me anoutlet.

(12:29):
That was different.
So I started really strugglingwith depression and it's like
second grade, which I look backnow and I'm like, geez, that's
terrible, like I mean that's.
I'm seven years old and I was ata.
I was at a weekend retreat withchurch and I talked to a guy, a
friend of mine.
We're just walking through thewoods and I actually started
talking to him.
Hey, how would you killyourself, you know?
And he, he's like eight, soobviously he had this emotional

(12:52):
maturity and wisdom about himthat it just freaked him out and
he went and told the counselor,and so then everybody's having
the conversations with you knowwhat's going on, what's wrong,
you know, and I don't know howto, how to feel.
I just don't like myself, Idon't like life.
I just assume I'm having thesefeelings Like I assume I'm
failing, I'm wrong and I'mstupid and this is dumb.
And I wasn't dumb Like I wasclever, I was smart, I had other

(13:15):
skill sets.
I was good at math, I could doa lot of things, I was a great
chameleon.
But when it came to this thingof reading and this thing of
spelling, I mean, I was, I waslost and it didn't make any
sense.
And we did the hooked onphonics, we did Sylvan learning
center.
Um, they had me in specialclasses.
I mean, I remember I spent likeI think half a third grade in a

(13:36):
room with like five other kidsand you know, we just tried to
do different things and andnobody could tell me and I
didn't know what was working.
So in my you know little kidbrain, I'm looking around.
I see everyone in my class.
They're in the same teacher,they're in the same room,
they're getting the sameeducation and they're getting it
and I'm not.
So obviously I'm the problem,you know.

(13:57):
And so I started reallystruggling.
I I can remember by third grade.
I still remember this nightwhere I'm sitting in my room and
I'm just open like notepad,spiral notebook and I'm just
writing feelings, so to speak,and just everything about I hate
myself.
Life's better without me.
Like it was it wasn't like asuicide note, but like it was

(14:18):
just I was vomiting a lot ofhurt and I didn't know how to
deal with it and I really justassumed that I was causing
problems for my parents.
I'm causing problems foreverybody.
It would just be easier if I'mgone.
And that's my little thirdgrade brain.
And my mom came in and uh, causeit was odd for me to be like in
my room alone, quiet for solong, and uh, she's kind of

(14:41):
looked over my shoulder, shesees what I'm writing and I'm
crying and I'm like I don't knowwhat to do.
And so she started getting mesome counseling and it was like,
okay, we need, we need to getsome help, and I was.
I was telling him yesterday.
Counseling didn't go well.
At first.
I had a really bad experiencewith a counselor who was I'll

(15:02):
just say he was inappropriate,which was odd for like an eight
year old kid, things that Iremember him talking about a had
nothing to do with me orreading.
They were like I don't know ifhe was trying to relate with me,
but like he would bring upsexual things.
He would bring up, perverted,like that's all I remember from
my time with him and I'm likethat, like going back now like
that's weird and wrong and Idon't get it.

(15:22):
But, um, so we ended up, uh,because he he also did some
other things that didn't go welland miss some appointments and
had some problems, and so we, weswitched and I got a new
therapist and I was in this,just this cycle of where I'd
kind of be okay and then summerwould happen oh, thank God it's

(15:42):
summer, you know, and I'm livingfor the summer but then every
fall school starts and I wouldjust fall into the slump and I
just hated life and everythingabout it.
I also, like I said, I wasasthmatic when I'm a kid, so it
was another one of those areaswhere I felt different, because
I'm going to gym class orsomething would happen and I
would start to wheeze and then Iwould have to go to the office

(16:04):
and they had the sick chair inthe office right at the end of
the counter, and I'd have to sitin the sick chair and they'd
have to bring me my inhaler andI, you know, I have to sit there
until I was okay and then I goback to class, so I'm not
running or participating.

Speaker 3 (16:26):
I did have a doctor who said you know, start
swimming, which I'm like that'sright, I can't breathe, so let's
put me under water.

Speaker 4 (16:32):
You know like, yeah, sure, during the summer what'd
you do for fun as a kid that youlook forward to?
Well, I had a greatneighborhood, like next door to
me was Casey, across the streetwas Wyatt, and then there was
Marissa and Megan, arnie andZach, like there was just kids
in the neighborhood and so Imean we just did everything, we
just played.
I mean it's as funny as itsounds Like I had a place, a

(16:56):
swing set and monkey bars in mybackyard and a teeter-totter.
We did.
We liked to go up north.
My grandparents had a cottageon a lake, so like the Memorial
Days, the labor days, that kindof thing we're doing that.
My parents like to do camping,so we're, we're doing, we're
doing the camping thing a lot.
We didn't spend a lot, so mydad was pretty fiscally
conservative, so we would saveand then do like a vacay and

(17:18):
that was a thing, and so, likemaybe once every few years we'd
take a big trip Like NorthCarolina one year where we went
when I was nine we did like atwo-week road trip out west and
that was really fun.
We caravaned with, uh, one ofmy uncles and their cousins and
we stayed, we motel sixed it,you know across across the whole
place and and that was great,um, but that's kind of.

(17:39):
You know, we lived in thisastro minivan and that was that
was our thing and it was a stickshift, which is so funny to me
to think about it.

Speaker 3 (17:46):
I didn't even know.
Astros had a stick.

Speaker 4 (17:48):
Well, in 86, they did .
It was pretty great.
Uh, the bench seats andeverything, um.
But I went through this thingand I I started swimming and
that seemed okay and that waskind of a little bit of identity
.
We, uh, we grew up going to afirst Presbyterian church of
Royal Oak and church was fun, itwas.
It was just fun in the sensethat like I had friends there

(18:09):
but uh, I didn't learn anything.
I mean, as silly as it sounds,I mean it was just be quiet, be
good behave.
We got in trouble for messingaround in the choir loft behind
the pastor guy.
Um, cause I'm in choir and youjust like sit kids up front and
expect us to be quiet, like it'sjust not possible.
Um, I, literally I had a friendand I don't know if people are

(18:33):
still around, but I rememberhaving a friend who we were
doing prayer and his name wasNathan and it's like third grade
and I think the teacher almostchoked him out because he
literally we were supposed to bequiet and praying and he just
started walking around with hiseyes closed, bumping into
everyone during the prayer andlike he was grabbed and taken

(18:56):
outside by an exasperated guy.
Like I feel really bad nowlooking back, but we used, I
just remember, you know, we'd goto the coffee station and put
like 12 packs of sugar in onecup of coffee down it and then
go to Sunday school and I'm likethose people have mansions in
heaven for just putting up withus.
But by the time, I mean, itsounds really dumb.

(19:18):
By the time we go intocommunicants class, middle
school, you know, we become amember of the church.
You know, memorize the books ofthe Bible, memorize the apostle
, okay, cool, so they the daywe're getting inducted I don't
know how else you would say itwe go in front of the whole
church and the pastor, you know,I'm going to ask you this.
You say this, I'm going to askyou this.

(19:38):
You say this, I'm gonna ask youthis.
You say cool, and then he likethrows a ringer question at us.
You know really toughtheological stuff at the very.
He goes who is your Lord andsavior?
Uh, we didn't rehearse that one.
Like, like it was so funnyCause.
We're like, uh, and the samekid who wandered and bumped, he
goes Jesus.
And we're like, yeah, that guy.

(19:59):
You know.
Hey, we're in church, that'sthe answer.
Right, you know, and everyonelaughed.
But I'm like, thinking back,I'm like, wow, we were dumb, we
didn't get it.
But when I was seven, aroundthat same time I had an aunt who
took me to a power team meetingand she was awesome.
I mean I thought it was so cool.
They're breaking handcuffs,they're blowing up hot water

(20:20):
bottles, breaking bricks.
God is stronger than me.
You're.
You're like I'm seven.
I'm like, please, yeah.
But I went home and I askedJesus to come into my heart with
my mom.
That was the first time I'dever really heard the gospel.
I didn't know, yeah, I didn'tknow it.
This wasn't stuff we discussedat church, you know, it was
mostly just behavior Be good, bequiet.
And so I remember doing that.

(20:42):
I don't really know.
I remember being a little kidasking my mom one time like hey,
you know like, you know likeour dudes, the right dude, you
know like, how do you know?
And?
And she talked a little bitabout faith.
But my dad was the guy whoworked crazy hard.
My dad, I mean if my brother, Idon't know, maybe they're tied

(21:02):
for nicest humans on the planetoutside of Jesus.
But I mean my, my brother, Idon't know, maybe they're tied
for nicest humans on the planetoutside of Jesus.
But I mean he is my dad's thenicest guy, but I mean he worked
super hard.
There were times where I foundout, recently, you know, he was
at one company and things weregoing a bit off and then he
literally somebody came into himand was like, hey, I got this
opening.
I work at one of the big three,they're hiring engineers.

(21:25):
Blah, hey, I got this opening.
I work at one of the big three.
Uh, they're hiring engineers.
Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
You know, oh yeah, that soundsway better, cause this was going
South and and so he literallyquit his job and like a week
they put a hiring freeze and sofor like two years in the
eighties, my dad just became arandom handyman and I mean he's
like painting houses, he's doing.
I had no idea, I'm like six,you know, I'm seven years old

(21:46):
somewhere in there, but he was.
I mean I remember thinking nowas a father, as a provider,
because talking to him now itwas this season where it's like
I don't know like when, whenthis basement's done, I don't
know what's next, cause hedidn't have a whole company.
I mean it was word of mouth.
I mean and this is pre internet.
I mean, this is the eighties,pre cell phones.

(22:08):
And so thinking back then,knowing later in life how hard
he worked, how I mean the hourshe put in the money he saved,
going okay, like that makes alittle more sense because, man,
that would have been freaky fora couple of years, genuinely not
knowing where your next bill'scoming from, your next paycheck,
and that kind of thing.
And so I remember getting Kmartshoes.

(22:30):
My mom found $2 shoes and theywere gray and Velcro and this
was long after I knew how to tie.
But we got, I got three pair ofthese gray, uh, walmart or
Kmart shoes and I wore throughthem till my my toes were
exposed and then she'd swap themout and I get the exact same
pair again.
I remember not thinking thatwas cool because kids were

(22:53):
starting to get name brand stuffand I was like, oh, I don't
have that, I have Kmart butwhatever.
So I grew up in church, aroundchurch.
Just just be good, you know, dothe right thing.
It's cool.
My dad was good, he did theright thing.
My, my brother was perfect, hedid the right thing, like it was
that.
But I still I was struggling.
Um, another counselor by fifthgrade new one.

(23:15):
I'm just playing with toys.
So I'm assuming it was like aplay therapy thing, cause I
don't remember ever talking tohim.
But I played with things.
And then, by sixth grade, therewas a man named Mr Reed and and
for some reason I think hereminded me of my grandpa, cause
I just liked him.
I talked to him, I opened upand I I just started talking

(23:39):
about the hey man, like I'mhaving dreams where I'm walking
into rooms and I'm dying.
I'm having dreams where I justfeel like worthless.
I'm having like these are allmy feelings and it just kind of
went into this repetition ofthis is just my life.
It's just up and down.
You know, I'm going to be okayfor a little while.
I'm going to be terriblydepressed.
I got really good.
I got really good at masking mywhole identity as a child, just

(24:01):
went into this idea that I'm afailure, it's my fault, but I'm
terrified of being exposed.
I don't want to.
No one can know this.
I don't want people to knowthis.
So I'm going to set thenarrative for my life.
I'm going to show you what Iwant to show you.
I'm going to distract you fromwhat I don't want you to see,
and I just started workingreally hard at that.

(24:23):
And then the seasons where Icouldn't keep it together, I
just get really depressed andget into funk and and that kind
of thing.
But I I did my best to be achameleon because I thought
that's what I needed to do tosurvive.
I mean, life became aboutsurvival.
I became really goodauditorially.
I could remember things, hearthings.
I got really charming because Ineeded teacher's help.
I needed people's help.

(24:43):
Charming because I neededteacher's help.
I needed people's help.
Like I needed to learn how towork the system, so to speak, to
survive.
And that was just kind of it.
And so I ended up in special edprograms and so my tests are
getting read to me.
There was a standardized test infourth grade I remember taking,
and I did the whole thing inlike 10, 15 minutes because I
mean it was like an all daything and I just filled that
little sheet.
You 15 minutes because I meanit was like an all-day thing and

(25:05):
I just filled out the littlesheet.
You know, like dot to dot, andI'm making patterns.
I don't care, I'm like I can'tread this, like there's
literally nothing I can do atthis point.
So I'm like, all right, here wego, you know, and at the end of
the year I got an outstandingscore certificate, and so I just

(25:25):
laughed because I was likethat's hilarious to me.
I don't know what's happening,but obviously somebody like me
made the thing, because I'm likemaking patterns and stuff.

Speaker 1 (25:30):
You know, perfect pattern.
Yeah, yeah, you know I meanit's great.

Speaker 4 (25:31):
You know A, b, c, d, sure, all of the above, why not?
But it was.
It was challenging throughmiddle school and everything it
was.
It was really it was tough.
I remember by sixth grade Iliked teaching, I liked people,
I liked interacting with youngerpeople.
I had lots of younger cousins,that kind of thing.
But by sixth grade I liked theidea, but I didn't like school.

(25:56):
And so we're at church and mybrother, who's five years older,
he's in a youth group and I gotto go.
My parents chaperoned a trip toColorado when I was um, my
brother was like a freshman andso I got to go.
So I hung out with, like, theyouth group in Colorado, which
was a whole nother thing, causewe lost a kid on a mountain for
a whole night, which wasinteresting, um, but that's,

(26:16):
that's another story.
Um, but I wanted to be a youthpastor in that time and I didn't
get it.
I didn't understand.
Like, looking back, I didn'thave great rationale for it.
I didn't have a great exampleof a youth pastor.
It's not like I was like I wantto be that guy.
I just thought it looked like afun job and so I liked God, I
thought he was cool, I likedteaching, I thought that was

(26:36):
cool.
And then I hated school.
So I was like how do I teachwithout being in school?
And so youth pastor became whatI was going to be, and that's
just what I tell people what areyou going to do?
So I remember being in a mathclass and I was like I'm never
going to use this.
And the teacher's like what areyou going to be when you grow
up?
And I was like a youth pastor.
And she goes you're never goingto use this, but you need it to
pass my class.

(26:57):
And I know, but that, so thatwas my mode.
And then I roll into high school, and that's where swimming
became big identity for me.
I started training at adifferent level with some people
, cause I was okay, but it wasjust something I did for fun.
You know I was looking for the.

(27:17):
You know I just wanted mylittle ribbon at the end of the
meet, you know those kinds ofthings.
And then, by high school,though, I started training with
just a different team and highschool team.
And then, by high school,though, I started training with
just a different team and highschool team, and the coach was a
lot different and pushed reallyhard and and so I, like, my
freshman year I qualified forstate meet.
I qualified for YMCA nationals.
I started my asthma startedactually kicking in pretty hard.

(27:40):
So I swim but because of thementality that I'm a failure,
don't want to be exposed, Inever wanted to be the one
sitting out.
I never cause.
I did that when I was a kid.
You know we do the mile and Ijust walk.
I do that Like I never wantedto be the one sitting out.
So I mean, starting in highschool, I I would swim until I
pass out.
I'd swim until I couldn't, likeI'd lay on the pool deck

(28:01):
looking like a dead fish, youknow, and and it was, it was
what I did.
I in college I took an EMS rideoff the pool deck, which is
something you always want to doin a speedo Just get carted away
on a stretcher through thecampus, you know, almost
completely naked.
You know that's what the ladieslike in college.

(28:23):
But it was my identity.
I was a swimmer, you know, andI I found home and so I was able
to.
Then the depression was a littledifferent because I figured out
how to work systems I had.
I had people who helped me.
I was the poster child for thespecial ed department.

(28:44):
Uh, because at that time itseemed like a lot of the kids
the poster child for the specialed department, because at that
time it seemed like a lot of thekids who were in special ed
came out of either really roughbackgrounds or they had some I
mean, they're doing drugs,they're doing they're the I say
bad kid.
But a lot of the kids in mewould have been thrown into the
bad kid category or whatever.
And you know I'm, I'm the goodlittle boy who goes to church

(29:05):
every Sunday with his family,and so they loved me, they
thought I was amazing.
So I was the only special edkid who was also in national
honor society.
You know, like it seemed likereally weird.
But the teachers I mean they'rereading things for me, they're
doing research things for likethey, they just loved me.
I said the director of specialed at my at my school loved me.

(29:27):
I said the director of specialed at my at my school like
crocheted me this blanket forgraduation, like it was a big
blanket.
I took it to college.
I'm like it's a lot of work.
You know, at the time I had nounderstanding of how significant
that was.
But, um, but I, I figured outhow to make things work.
I figured out how to do asystem.
I figured out and I gotswimming.
That's my identity.
I'm in choir and that's youknow cause I was a swimmer and

(29:52):
in choir, so like I shaved mylegs and I sang, so I was
obviously the coolest guy youknew.
Um, but it it worked for me.

Speaker 3 (29:58):
Would you say?
Would you say that they wereenabling you?
Is that what?
And you figured out how to workthe system.

Speaker 4 (30:11):
Yes, yes and no.
Yeah, yes, I was being, I wasbeing enabled.
Yeah, cause for a long time Iwould say that I cause it was my
fault mentally, I just neededto work harder.
And if I would have just workedharder I'd have figured it out,
if I'd have just done somethingdifferent, like it was my fault
, not their fault.
And so I think honestly now Ifelt a little bit enabled

(30:32):
because it made me feel weak toneed things.
It made me feel weak when Istood out, it made me feel
stupid when I stood out.
So I kind of bucked againstthat in some things.
But I also had no other choicebecause I mean, I genuinely I
took the SAT ACT I don'tremember which one.

Speaker 3 (30:49):
I think it was ACT, act.

Speaker 4 (30:51):
I took the ACT the one out of 36 with a tape
recorder in a room by myself andthe whole whole thing was just
on a cassette tape.
I hit play and I have the testand it's reading it to me Like,
but I mean, that was my life,otherwise I'd have never taken
the test, like I just wouldn'thave happened.
And so, uh, there was a degreewhere I, I pushed it.

(31:17):
So, yeah, I, I learned how tocharm and manipulate and just do
whatever I could to work thesystem and work people and to
help you know, but it became mysurvival instinct.
Would it have been great?
Now there were other areas, likeswimming, where I had a great
coach who pushed, and so inareas where I'm like, cause I
have asthma, he's not giving mea dime, which I loved and I
appreciate it so much.
But I mean I'd be, I'd love it,cause I, we'd be at a swim,

(31:39):
meet away, meet.
And so I'm done, I'm laying onthe pool deck, I'm looking like
a dead fish.
The parents are like the timersand they're like getting their
phones out because they'rescared to call 911 or something.
And I remember I come over andlike kind of kick my rib and be
like your turn sucked and justwalk away, you know, and the
parents are like, oh my God,what's wrong with that man?
You know like, and it was great, I thought it was funny, like

(32:02):
we'd make jokes and all sorts ofthings, you know, and it was
fun.
He put things together andclear.
You know, he pushed on my chestand I'd flop a little, you know
, pretending I was dead.
You know that morbid humor thatboys like so much.
So in areas where I knew Icould shine, I really pushed.
But in everything else I was, Iwas hiding, I was, I was hiding
as much as I could, I wasgetting hiding.

(32:26):
I was hiding as much as I could.
I was getting and they didn'tknow they were enabling me.
I don't think they knew theywere enabling me because
genuinely I needed the help, butlike I knew how to push it and
they were excited to help asmuch as they could be.
And so through high school, justkind of battled with those
kinds of things, battled withdepression, and it was seasonal,
but I had enough things that Icould focus on and celebrate in

(32:47):
my life that it kind of balancedthe scales.
Like I had fun.
High school was just fun.
I didn't care about work.
It was easy.
You know, I figured it out.
Somebody's going to do myresearch for me and we'll get
the paper in and it'll be fine.
You know, like, as goofy asthat sounds, like that was my
life.
I think I did.
I did homework four times inhigh school because I had a

(33:08):
whole class each day whereteachers would help me, like
they'd read things to me, like,so I always had something extra.
You know, like I never had totake a language because they're
like you can't read English.
Like you know, I think we'regoing to try and teach you
Spanish or French, you know.
Good luck, kid.
You know.
So I didn't worry about it.
It was great.
I wish I had taken languagesnow you know, hindsight, missed

(33:30):
that one.
But but just growing up and andI'd say normal but not normal, I
really liked it.
I'm in church.
We went through five youthpastors I keep hitting this
thing, sorry Went through fiveyouth pastors in four years so
didn't have like a phenomenalmentor guide, didn't see

(33:50):
anything.
We'd go to like camps.
I really liked camp becausethose people seemed to be
authentic.
I appreciated the authenticity.
I mean, I remember I didn't, Ijust didn't like church.
They'd get up there and they'dread one verse, read another
verse and then talk aboutsomething that had nothing to do
with it.
We'd stand up, sit down, fight,fight, fight, like I don't know
.
You weren't allowed to be noisy.

(34:13):
I wasn't good at that, but Ireally liked my friends.
But when somebody would readfrom the Bible, it just made
sense to me.
So I can remember being in highschool and and and just somebody
read and I just talk, and thatjust seemed normal and that just
seemed easy, you know like.
So I was the good little churchkid and and that was my life
and that was my identity and Iand I loved it as much as I knew
.
I didn't know a ton, I didn'thave a lot of exposure.

(34:36):
But I just really liked Jesus.
I thought he was cool, Ithought he was real, um, I
thought he was great and that'skind of got me through high
school into college.
I went, uh, division oneOakland university and I was a
walk-on swimmer on the team, butthen I still can't read, and so
but you did graduate from highschool.
I did graduate from high school.

(34:56):
I got a 3.8 or something likethat I did.
Yeah, I was the smartest dumbkid or the dumbest smart, I
don't know which one they wentthrough, but I was somewhere in
there.
You know, I did graduate highhigh school and and go to
college for a couple of years.
I went mostly to swim.
I thought that was fun.
My poor parents, they were sogenerous and I lived at college

(35:19):
and I liked university and, likeI said, I got to take a ride
off a pool deck, which wasreally fun at EMS.
And I was on a conferencechampionship team for two years,
which was really fun at EMS.
And I was on a conferencechampionship team for two years,
which was awesome.
I literally I remember thinkingcause I was eighth and 10th in
the state in in in high school.
So I was, I was up there prettygood.
And then, you know, I show upand I'm D one and there's a guy

(35:42):
his name was Heisman Hassad andhe literally just come back from
Sydney because he was on theEgyptian Olympic team and so I'm
just like, oh, here's yourtowel.
Like I don't know what else todo.
I don't know, I'm not.
This isn't even going to be andit's like an events I couldn't
even do.
He's like 200 fly guy.
I'm like, oh, no, thanks,whatever.
Um, but I, I loved it.

(36:05):
But college is where I gotintroduced to people who were
excited about faith.
I remember there was a thingcalled InterVarsity Christian
Fellowship and they literallymet in a classroom and they had
this little Sony boombox youknow those little CD players and
they'd play like three worshipsongs, you know like vineyard

(36:27):
worship or something.
And and it was the.
I was like this is amazing.
Like I was amazing I'd had apipe organ my whole life.
One time somebody brought aguitar and you thought like half
the church thought they weregoing to hell.
You know like, but it's over,uh, and it was acoustic, but but
like I'd never seen.
So I mean, I remember havinglike the biggest adrenaline

(36:48):
rushes ever just listening tothis worship music, just
thinking this is awesome.
You know like this is like Iwould lose my mind.
I remember like jumping back tomy dorm one day after, like I'm
like this is like I'm freakingout.
I'm like I need to get likeheadphones and do this before a
meet.
You know I'll be listening to.
You know, here I am to worshipright before I swim, you know,

(37:09):
or something like that.
Um and I, I just learned a ton.
I I ended up going to anon-denominational church in a
middle school.
Uh, with friends, we'd we'dcarpool at a Sunday night
service and we'd all go thereand then we'd go to my friend's
mom's house for dinner which isawesome Cause she was a good
cook and it was amazing.
So I'd eat four plates of foodbecause I was a college swimmer.
You know like I remember thosedays.

(37:30):
I love that.
I used to go to, you remember,boston Market.
Oh yeah, I get the family offour meal deal and I would eat
it alone.
You know, one chicken and likethree sides and that was my
lunch.
You know, still didn't likeschool, still didn't do good.
I didn't do good.
Uh, I did enough to get by.
Figured out the classes.

(37:50):
Athletes know the classes totake, cause we got to register
first.
So I remember being in an introto Russian class, which was
pretty much all athletes becauseit was an easy C.
You know, like teacher didn'tcare, it was like I don't
remember a thing.
It was, it was pretty funny.
I intro to film.
You know, ace, that one I waspretty great.
You know, I picked my.
I told him I started with anelementary ed major because I

(38:12):
thought if I can't be a youthpastor, maybe I can be an
elementary school teacher.
And at least you know, I read athird grade level, because I
graduated high school with athird grade reading and spelling
level.
I was like, well, if I teachsecond grade, I should be good.
You know, like that's, this ismy thinking.
And so that was my firstthought.
And then elementary ed was toohard, and so I saw an Simpsons

(38:32):
episode where a football playergot hurt and the doctor's like,
well, it's OK, you can fall backon your major in communication.
The guy who's hurt he's I knowit's not a real major.
And I was like, that's what Iwant, right there, buddy.
So I switched to communications.

Speaker 3 (38:49):
That was my major and I was like that's what I want
right there, buddy.
So I switched to communications.
That was my major.

Speaker 4 (38:52):
I'm waiting for Ben to say something I was going to.
So it's just, my life is basedon Simpsons episodes, apparently
, some dance.
Yeah, you know, it's been acultural, you know shifter.
But I'm in college and I'mswimming and my first year in
college I started getting I'mswimming and my fresh first year
in college I started gettingrotator cuff and bicep
tendonitis in both shoulders and, uh, that's really bad, you

(39:16):
know.
But we're training, I mean,we're in the pool five hours a
day, six days a week.
Um, and so it was a lot.
And so I I started seeing thetrainer.
I started beforehand I'mheating, afterwards I'm icing,
uh, they're stretching me outbefore.
And then I spent the wholesummer in PT going and just
trying to figure it out.
And then, um, it just wasn't,wasn't getting better.

(39:38):
Still, I'm like taking a shirtoff hurt, you know like I mean
it was.
It was pretty ugly and, um, Ihad a, a pastor.
I had a pastor who's so?
My cousin married a man andthey the pastor at a church.
Now, these are people I knowand I've known them my whole
life, but they're holidaycousins.

(40:00):
You know, I had a ton ofcousins.
My mom was one of the baby offive and then her siblings had
like a million kids and so itwas just, you know, I had 18
cousins and so, and then theircousins had kids, my cousins had
kids and like it was just awhole thing.
And so um, he, uh, he, he wasdramatic and he, he helped me,

(40:22):
we, uh, we went on a.
I met a kid named Brad, and Bradand I were both walk-ons and so
we became buddies.
But Brad loved Jesus, he was aBaptist kid and and he, he did,
he wanted to go into ministry.
He thought it was amazing.
He was a researcher, he was alittle more type A than me, but
we were just goofy together andit was, it was fun, like for our
championship meet, he and I,cause we'd shave our heads,

(40:45):
cause we're swimmers, we shaveeverything, but we didn't make
finals.
You know, I mean this is D onechampionship meet.
So we literally painted ourwhole skulls, the school colors,
you know, and and it lookedpretty trippy, right, but we
just, I mean we were.
So we just go to the meet andwe just be running around the
pool deck with these black andgold glowing heads.

(41:05):
Um, it was before I knew whatblue man group was, but glowing
heads, um, it was before I knewwhat blue man group was, but
that's what we looked like, um,but he and I, my freshman year
we went spring break.
We were like we're going on anevangelistic road trip, we're
going to save the world and we,uh, we were gonna.
We raised enough money, and byraising enough money I mean we
literally had a glass jar ofchange, uh, for gas.
We knew we had enough money,ish, to get to Fort Lauderdale

(41:32):
from Detroit, uh, and we stayedwith friends and family and
anybody we knew along the way.
But we also had no idea whatwe're doing.
So I call my cousin and I'm likeI think I know this guy and
he's like a pastor or somethingyou know, so he can tell us what
to do.
So I call up and he meets usfor lunch and we talk and he's
telling us this stuff that hesees and in my experience the
Bible is an old book.
That stuff is great stories.

(41:55):
It probably happened.
That's awesome.
But nowadays you just be quietand behave.
That's about it.
Like it there was.
No, there wasn't, there was noconnection between the past and
the present.
And he started, I remembersitting at this we're at this
national Coney Island and he,he's just talking about things
he's seeing from like Jesusdoing miracles, to hearing God

(42:17):
being led by the Holy spirit anddifferent things, you know, and
talking to people and seeingsalvation, and we're like you
know, like we're drinking thisin, like you're a rock star,
cause in my mind it was like theBible came to life right in
front of me and somebody elsewas living it and it was so
different.
Then he gave us $60 for ourtrip and we're like this is
amazing.
We did.
We went on a road trip.

(42:37):
I don't remember talking toanybody about Jesus.
I remember eating out of thetrash.
I remember taking a shower in aBaskin-Robbins bathroom,
sleeping in the car, you know,and different things, but it was
, it was a lot of fun.
Well, fast forward.
I see him again at Memorialweekend right before school.
Hey, how's it going?
You're at the swimmer.

(42:58):
You know what's it look like?
Ah, you know I might have toquit because my shoulders and
this thing.
And he, he tells me he says Ilove it because he knew where I
was.
So he obviously he's like well,you know, you could do that or
we could pray for you to get youhealed, you know.
And then he kind of laughed andI'm like, yeah, you know,
that's fine, you know, good joke.
Uh.
And then, but push came to shove, end of September already,

(43:21):
taking an EMS ride off the pooldeck.
And then I'm, I'm done Like I'mjust kicking, I'm not swimming,
I'm not using my arms, like I'mdone.
And so I called him and I'mlike, hey, are you serious?
Like you know what's I got tohail Mary, you know what do you
got?
And he says, come find out.
And so I I remember tellingpeople, I told my coach, I told

(43:42):
my friends I was like I'm goingto go get my shoulder fixed.
And that's just how I said it.
I didn't say I was gettingprayed for, I didn't.
I was like I'm just going to goget my shoulder fixed.
And according to my, my pastor,you know, I was 45 minutes late
for my appointment.
I think I was much morestudious than that.
I assumed I was on time, but hehad like 15 minutes with me

(44:03):
before the next appointment, youknow, and I'm so mature and I'm
so into it.
So we sit at his.
We went to his house.
We're sitting at his diningroom table and he's trying to
read scripture to me.
He's trying to build my faithbecause he knows I don't know
anything about healing.
I'm here to pray for healing.
I was never taught that Jesuseven does this anymore.
I'm not taught anything whatthe Bible says, but I know

(44:24):
nothing, and he knows I knownothing.
So he's reading to me and I'mjust sitting there going this is
dumb, aren't we going to pray?
Like, in my mind I'm like whocares?
Like, yeah, read this.
Okay, I'm redeemed from somecurse, blah, blah, blah.
You know, I'm like aren't wegoing to pray?
And you know I have such a goodpoker face, obviously, that
he's totally picking up on myvibe of reverence and belief.

(44:48):
And so he said, telling thestory later, that he was going
to wait.
He's like I wasn't going topray, I was going to reschedule,
do another appointment.
Maybe he'd be on time this time, you know.
And he said he just felt thepresence of God.
So he said well, if Jesus ishere, you know he can do what he
wants.
All bets are off.
So he put his hand on me.
He started praying.
Um, I remember hearing.

(45:10):
Uh, I remember hearing.
I.
I swore it was him for yearsuntil I talked to him later, but
it just said make noise.
I had no idea what that was.
I started praying in tongues.
I didn't know what that was,I'd never heard of that.
But I'm just making noise andit's just flowing out of me and
I'm like, okay, thanks, and Ileave and I just went to
practice and I never had aproblem again.
My shoulder got fixed and I waslike, well, that's cool, you

(45:32):
know like, but it was, it waswhat I thought would have.
Like I was just like, okay,that's going to work.
And and I don't know why I hadno, I had no basis for this.
It was, it was grace inabundance, beyond anything,
because he made up for myignorance and everything else
and it was, it was crazy.
So that kind of tripped me upbecause I'm like, okay, there's

(45:52):
something more.
And so that whole year, brad andI have this idea we're going to
go to Bible school.
We want to go to Bible school.
And so Brad's a researcher andhe's just hammering it.
So like every week he finds,well, man, there's this, there's
this Bible school, we should gothere.
Oh, yeah, yeah, that soundsamazing, we're going to go there
.
And then two weeks later, oh,what about this one, you know?
And so we're just going throughit and I remember I was like,

(46:17):
well, what about?
You know where he went toschool?
The pastor, you know, I mean,seemed to go pretty well for for
me.
And that year we went on a tripand we visited three Bible
schools we went to Chicago, wewent to Tulsa, we went to Denver
and they were.
They were all interesting andit was weird because the one I
ended up going with I was raisedPresbyterian.

(46:38):
It was more of a charismaticPentecostal, and so I was like
this is weird, I have no ideawhat's happening.
People are praying, people arerunning, people like there was a
lot of demonstrative.
Now I went to like a prayermeeting for Bible school
students at a Pentecostal.
So, yeah, it wasn't like anoutreach, it was like a church.
You know, it was a churchservice, but I'd never been to

(46:59):
anything like that, I'd nevereven seen anything like that,
and so I literally left themeeting.
I was like what are they doing?
Why are they?
Like what the heck is going onhere?
You know, um, and and my friendwho was raised Baptist, he
laughed, he's like this is weird, I'm out, you know, um.
And so it was.
It was one of those things.
We went back to school, finishedup the year, and uh, I just

(47:20):
knew.
I kind of knew, hey, we'regonna, I'm going to go to this
school.
And I didn't.
I didn't, I didn't know why.
Like I, I was good even thenbecause my life has progressed
of.
I got to follow, I got to, Igot to learn, I got to lead, I
got to learn to hear his voice,I got to learn.
I didn't know.
Back then I just kind of I heardsomebody say it like they knew

(47:43):
in their knower, like I justknew in my knower when, uh, when
you read an accident, it seemedgood to the Holy ghost and not
like it just seemed good.
I was like I'm going to go tothat school.
I didn't have like the facts,cause Brad I love, I loved him,
cause he was a research, like hewould know everything about a
place and he would have all thisinformation.
And I was the opposite.

(48:03):
I'm like, ah, I think that's agood one.
Okay, let's go.
Do you know the founder?
No, no idea.
Do you know anything about theschool?
It's in Oklahoma, you know.
Like I mean, I think I know thename of it.
Like I was just ignorant but itjust seemed good and that was
my thing.
And so, uh, I went to Bibleschool and it was funny because
I ended up being sent and givenlike hey, do anything about this

(48:26):
.
I'm like no, and there was somegood and bad and and there was
a lot of internet stuff aboutthe founder and there was
internet stuff about the schooland and stuff.
You know, and I mean it was thebeginning of the internet.
This is 2002, 2003.
You know like we were alldownloading stuff off napster.
Still, you know, burning cds,uh and uh.

(48:47):
For those children out there,burning cds is when you, you
didn't set them on fire, youactually had to put music on a
cd and that was the whole thing.
I had to explain burning cds tolike a 20 year old recently and
so he's like, why were youburning them?
Never mind, just a ritual yeah,yeah, something we did for the
music, gods you know.

(49:08):
But we but I did.
And so I found out I'm like, oh, I can't go here.
This place is crazy and blah,blah, blah.
But I just it was one of thosethings to where like a week went
by and I was like man, I reallythought you wanted me to go
there.
So I made a bargain and I toldGuy, I'd give you a week.
If this is kooky, I'm out.
Give you a week.
If this is kooky, I'm out.

(49:29):
Give you a week.
If this is wackadoodled, I'mout.
We talked a lot yesterday, so ifI skip anything, just let me
know.
Hey, that was a weird thing.
You said you know yesterday.
So I go there and the firstthing they do I get registered.
And it was so funny becausethings I didn't understand.
I love this because this helpedme so much later in life.
But I remember I'm standing inline and the guy in front of me

(49:52):
starts talking to me.
Now I don't know anything, I am, I am green, and I remember him
looking at me and he goes man,I know, god called me here.
I'm like cool, how you know.
He's like I got my acceptanceletter and the devil lost his
mind.
I got my acceptance letter andthe devil lost his mind.
He's like my car broke down,you know, I had this bill come

(50:12):
in my cat, like he went throughthis litany of attacks of the
enemy, you know, or somethinghappened.
And he's like I know I'm called.
I'm like, wow, it's a mate likelitter.
I'm like, oh, I wonder if I'mcalled.
Like you know, I had no idea.
10 minutes later, the personbehind me and I know it was a
girl and she's like, oh, I knowman, I know she's excited and

(50:35):
she was from somewhere like mid,mid East coast.
And she's like I got myacceptance letter, somebody paid
my tuition, I found anapartment.
I like I mean it was like everybox got checked, every miracle
happened for her to come.
I know I come like well, crap,now I don't even know if I'm
supposed to, because I was likeI just thought I was supposed to

(50:55):
come, like I didn't have thesecircumstances, I didn't have
these things.
And so I remember, just lookingat it, being so confused
because I assumed, just bylooking around, everyone was
smarter and more spiritual thanme, because my mentality is
still that I'm a failure andthat I'm hiding it.
So I got to fake it becausethat went through high school,
that went through college, thatwent through everywhere.
I'm faking and hidingeverything.

(51:16):
I'm swimming until I diebecause I don't want to look
weak.
I'm charming and funny andtrying to be the life of the
party, even though I didn'tdrink.
So I didn't drink, I didn'tsmoke, I didn't do anything.
I was the DD, but we'd haveswim parties and I mean, I was
trying to be the life of theparty as the only sober guy
there, like cause I, I wantedthe spotlight where I wanted it,

(51:40):
and it was just all theseinsecurities I didn't know how
to deal with, but I thought Iwas hiding them really well.
And so I found identity inswimming.
And then I found identity ingirls.
I was charming.
I knew, you know, I was goodwith the ladies, you know, like
that kind of thing.
And so then I went to Bibleschool and there's no swimming

(52:00):
and you know I'm not really.
It's Bible school, it's not likeyou're supposed to be hooking
up with, you know.
So I had this huge identitycrisis to where I didn't know
who I was or what I was.
And I I I struggled withdepression that first year in a
totally different way than I hadbefore and I'm like I'm in bio
school.
Am I depressed?
But I was like I don't know whoI am outside of this, which was

(52:22):
kind of good, because then Istarted learning about these
ideas of who you are in Christ.
You know there's all these tonsand tons of verses.
Paul would write things aboutbeing in him.
You know you are therighteousness of God in Christ.
You are more than a conquerorthrough him, who you know, and
so I'm learning this stuff andit really, it really helped me.
But for a while, you know who Iwas was crazy, shaky because I

(52:44):
had no idea I was charming, Iwas funny, I was a swimmer, I
was like I had myaccomplishments and I won, and
everything I had all of a suddenwasn't wasn't what anybody
cared about at that time and inthat place.
And so we go through this thingand but I remember being there
and so I'm in that line.
After the you know, hell brokeloose and then heaven opened up.

(53:05):
People you know told me abouthow obviously I didn't know what
I was doing at Bible school.
Uh, and they handed me twogrocery bags of books and these
were my books for the year and Iwas like awesome, are these on
tape?

Speaker 3 (53:20):
Like like I.

Speaker 4 (53:21):
I you know I had nothing, um, cause I don't think
they had a special eddepartment at Bible school.
You know, like it was lecturehalls and it was, and and it
turned out like the book waslike half your grade, like it
was like, did you the exam?
One of the questions was didyou read the book, yes or no?
You know, and God's watching,so answer, you know, honestly.
So my mom calls me and and shesays, all right, send us a list,

(53:53):
cause she knew what was coming.
You know, send us a list of thebooks your aunts and I will
read them into.
You know a tape recorders andwe'll send you the cassettes.
And I just was like that's sodumb, cause it felt enabling, it
felt childlike, it felt weak,it felt you know so many things.
It felt and I was like, allright, I didn't like it.
I didn't like it at all, uh,cause I felt exposed, you know,
to think that I'd have all thesecassette tapes that my mommy
and my aunts were reading, youknow, while they were eating

(54:13):
salads for lunch or something.
Uh, I always thought it wasweird that my aunts would always
eat salads for lunch, cause Ididn't think that was a real
meal.
Um, but I told God I was like,all right, if, I mean, if, if
I'm here, if you called me, if,if any of this stuff is true, I
go, you got to fix this.
I mean this is stupid.
So I found the smallest book inthe in the bags and it was this

(54:37):
mini book and it was calledthreefold nature of a man.
And I sat, I go, you got to fixthis.
So I sat down and I read it,just the whole book, and then I
called my mom and I said I'mgood, don't worry about it.
And that was it.
Like I was, just I was, I wasokay, like I wasn't the best
reader in the world, I wasn'twhat I, but I mean I could read,

(54:59):
I comprehend, like, and I readmy books at school and I was
still a procrastinator.
So the night before finalsthere was times where I was
drinking pots of coffee justreading every, every page, just
so I could check the right box,you know, um, and not lie.
But uh, it was.
It was crazy, cause I went tothis Bible school and they're
teaching, you know, about thingsthat I had experienced and
didn't know.
They start teaching abouthealing.
I didn't know anything abouthealing, but I'd been healed, I,

(55:22):
they started teaching about theHoly spirit and, you know,
speaking in what?
What tongues was you know?
And and going through you know,speaking in what, what tongues
was you know?
And and going through you know,first, corinthians 13 and or 14
.
And then, like you know, acts,chapter two, like all this stuff
, and I'm like, oh, I did that,you know.
And I'm looking around I wantto tell someone like I did that
and like everyone's like, yeah,so did we.
I was seven and I'm like, fine,I'm just in college, you know,

(55:51):
whatever, uh, but I mean I, I, Iloved it Like it was.
It was like everything I, youknow it was funny cause I got
kind of mad, cause I felt likeit was everything.
Nobody ever told me.
Like I've been in church mywhole life and I was like nobody
told me this.
Like what the heck?
I never and you know it's on me, I never studied the Bible, I
never read it for myself and Icouldn't.
But you know, still, regardless, like I never, I never pushed.
At the time I was the best Iknew, like my youth group,

(56:13):
friend group, everything youknow, like I was the best I knew
.
So I thought I was doing goodand then I show up and the you
know, there was people herepractically like walking on
water.
As far as I was concerned, youknow, and I'm still this like
half heathen guy had no ideawhat I was doing, and so it was.
It was unique.
And then I meet this group offriends.
I met my wife.

(56:34):
I got seated next to my wifeshe wasn't my wife then, in
three, because they assignedseating and that's how they just
took attendance.
You just in a row, you know,you signed in blah blah, blah,
and so we were assigned seats.
So three classes, we wereassigned seating next to each
other.
Now I stopped wearing long pantsmy freshman year in high school
.
I wore shorts every day of theyear in Michigan, 20 degrees,

(56:58):
sweet.
I'm wearing shorts, I don'tcare, I'm a shorts and a t-shirt
guy forever.
I go to Bible school shirt andtie.
I didn't like that shirt andtie.
Oh, I didn't like that.
And I had enough rebelliousnature in me that I knew the
dress code and never broke it,but I stretched that thing.
So I'd be like in this blueHawaiian shirt and a red bow tie

(57:18):
and I'd be sitting in class andI am, I'm within.
I'm right, you know, I, Iremember borrowing.
I had this Larry boy clip ontie.
That was my friend's uh, it washis six year old son, so it
came like just barely to thebottom of my sternum.
You know, I'm just sitting I'mlike looking back like, oh, that
guy's such an idiot, you know.
But my, my wife was like perfect, you know, like she was.

(57:42):
I mean, she grew up veryconservative, she grew up on a
farm in Kansas, she grew upnon-sarcastically, and most of
the movies, most of my dialoguecame from like dumb and dumber,
and multiplicity, like there'slike Adam Sandler movies, was
pretty much half the things thatI came out of my mouth.
You know, I'm pretty sure shejust quoted scripture all day

(58:03):
and so I thought she was reallystuck up, she thought I was
incredibly obnoxious and we wereboth pretty right.
You, I remember she got invitedUh, I got invited to her

(58:31):
birthday party by someone.
It was birthday, and I'm like,well, what do you want?
And she just goes a piano andI'm like, okay, I'm poor, uh, so
I, being the charm, I go, Igive great hugs, you know, and
she goes I prefer the chocolatekind and I'm like, okay, so I'm
getting nowhere with this.
You know, because I had thisself-deprecating humor, the
charm, you know, blah blah, blahblah.

(58:52):
And she, she didn't play any ofthat game, it was, it was
really.
It was weird.
It was like they, we, myfriends, used to joke.
You know, like you, elizabeth,super nice to everybody, unless
your name is Jeff, then she'sjust going to cut you down.
So of course, course you marryher.
But we, we dated a little bitand we started dating.

(59:13):
But my first year of Bibleschool, that group of friends,
they tell me you know, halfwaythrough the year or something,
they're going on a mission trip.
They knew a missionary.
They're going to Argentina thissummer.
And I'm like that's cool.
Where's Argentina?
Like I don't know anything.
I in high school Presbyterianchurch, I went to Mexico a
couple of times and we builtchurches, so cement work in

(59:34):
Mexico, we're building churches,and I thought that was a lot of
fun and really hot and sweaty,but really a lot of fun.
And so I was like that's cool.
So I want to go to Argentina.
So I find out, I get signed up,I figured out, call my parents,
I figure out money, and we andand I'm set to go, and uh, but I
mean, this tells you how I livein this ignorance thing.
I literally showed up at theairport.

(59:56):
I'm going with John Smithwickministries international to
Argentina.
That's what I, that's what Isigned up for.
I'm at the airport and I meetsome guy and I'm like, hey, who
are you?
And he's like I'm JohnSmithwick, you know like of John
Smith, and I'm like, oh, cool,like I have no idea, like I, I
probably.
I mean I'm sure he's like oh,why are you here?

(01:00:18):
Like who let this kid in?
You know, I did, I was, I wasall zeal, no wisdom, and uh, I
just was like this is awesome.
But we went on this trip mysummer, after my first year of
Bible school.
My brain's already explodingCause I've learned more in, you
know, one year than I thought mywhole life.
Like I thought heaven hadopened up and I was almost
glowing.
You know, like I mean I wasjust so jazzed by this stuff.

(01:00:40):
Um, and we go and I'm gettingand it was pure evangelism, it
was.
You know, we'd go to schools.
We had like a drama and we hada clown and we were just doing a
pure gospel message.
You know, jesus can save you.
Here's how Jesus can heal you.
Let's pray.
And I'd never done that, likeever.

(01:01:02):
Like I talked a little bit, youknow, to my friends about Jesus.
You know little things, but Ihad no idea.
I had no idea.
I had no idea how to simplyshare the gospel.
Because I, and even today Ifind in church, um, if somebody
said, you know, hey, tell me thegospel.
Like tell the gospel to someonewho doesn't know, like that's

(01:01:23):
hard for people because in,especially in the United States,
we're leveraging.
They probably know about Easter, they probably know about
Easter, they probably know aboutChristmas, they probably know
about so we're leveraging somuch culture.
But like to be able to startfrom zero.
So this man, john Smith, we wastrained by somebody who was
going into India and talking toHindus who have millions of gods
and and and all sorts of things.

(01:01:46):
So like the gospel started at,you know, the, the one true God
who created heaven and earth.
Like we got to go all the wayback and start from the
beginning and uh, and it wascrazy.
So I'm seeing people, you know,get born again and give their
lives to Jesus, you know, like,believing our message, I'm
seeing people get healed, like Imean, this was 2000,.

(01:02:06):
I think summer of 2003,.
I'm sitting on a stage and Iwas, I was, I was just waiting
for my, my turn and it was kindof the end.
And there's this little kid andI can still see him in my mind.
He's a little kid, he's liketwo and a half years old
somewhere in there, and he'splaying with his foot, like he's
just grabbing it and messingwith it, and I'm like, oh, he's
a cute kid, you know, becauseall kids are really cute, you

(01:02:26):
know, all over the world they'readorable.
But I'm just watching himplaying with his foot.
I thought it was cute and hismom is talking and she's sharing
a testimony and stuff, and Ihave no idea.
And then I find out that hisfoot, right right above the
ankle, like his bone, was likebent.
So his foot was bent, so he'dbeen like walking on like the

(01:02:49):
side of his foot his whole lifeand we prayed it's his, his foot
just popped straight.
So not, this kid wasn't playingwith his foot, he was trying to
figure out what was sodifferent and like, hey, he
doesn't know, his leg justpopped straight.
And now he's walking normal andhe's fine and like, and I'm
just like god, I'm like I'mfreaking out.
This is the cool.
I'm living in the bible.
This stuff is real I it blew mymind.

(01:03:09):
I remember watching there's thisshort, husky guy and I remember
seeing the videotape too.
I mean I'm watching and it'slike this do you know people who
do kombucha?
Have you ever seen those thingswhere they have like these,
they ferment stuff and it's thisthick slimy thing that grows on
the top of people who do.
It's gross but whatever.
But like it's the closest thingI I'm watching the cataracts

(01:03:31):
fall, drip down his face andit's like this slimy lens.
That's the closest thing Icould see.
It was this milky, slimy lensand I watched it just running
down his face and he could seejust fine.
But I mean it.
I mean, if I had 12 contactlenses that were cream, white,
like that's the closest thing Icould and I'm like this.
So I lost my mind.

(01:03:53):
I thought this was the greatestthing ever.
I'm going to do this.
For like I loved it.
I loved preaching.
I, you know, I understood thegospel.
Now I can do it.
So went to Bible school secondyear, did the youth ministry
thing and then, uh, the wholetime I'm I'm trying to learn how
to hear, because everything I'mI'm hearing about, everything
I'm reading, like Holy Spiritleads, bible leads.
I mean the founder of theschool, I mean he had stories,

(01:04:16):
bible school and I mean he hadstories of Jesus talking to him
and showing up like just crazystuff.
And you're like, yeah, I wantthat.
You know, you, you think it'sawesome.
And so, uh, I'm working on.
I remember my first year.
I'm like I'm here two years andI'm out like this is terrible
beginning of the year.
But I remember by like November, it's like all right, I might,
I might do a third year, youknow, we'll see, who knows, you

(01:04:37):
know.
And then I March, it's like I'mprobably going to do a third
year.
And then by May, it's like likein September I 20% knew.
You know, by November I 40%knew by.

(01:04:59):
And so in my life I've one ofthe things that I've tried so
hard is I now know, okay, if I'mat 20, I know where 20 is going
.
So I'm, as I've grown inwalking, as I've grown in faith,
as I've grown in learning allthis stuff, I've gotten better
at not waiting until I'm ahundred percent, like I've just
gotten more comfortable knowingall right, I'm 20, I'm 30, I'm

(01:05:22):
40.
I'm, I can, I'm good enough,like I don't have to know
everything, I know where it'sgoing, like I know the voice, I
know the check and learning howto know that.
I remember, for me it wasalways like trying to hear God
and be led.
It was always like the oldradios in the car where you're
trying to find that station soyou're tuning it, you go a

(01:05:43):
little bit this way, you wentpast it, you go a little bit
back and you're just alwaystrying to fine tune and uh, for
me it was just learning how tohear, learning how to train my
ear, learning how you know my,my wife tried to teach me how to
play guitar, you know, and, andit was just knowing how, cause
she was a musician and she was aworshiper and you know she was
amazing.
Um, she is, she's awesome, butuh, knowing how to do all that

(01:06:05):
stuff and learning.
So I started that progressionof just really trying to work on
how do I hear, how do I know,you know, watching these cool
things happen.
So second year I'm doing theyouth ministry thing, I'm coming
home, I'm working in the summerat the church that I went to,
where the pastor, you know,prayed for me to be healed and

(01:06:26):
all this stuff.
I'm working at my cousin'schurch in the summers with the
youth group trying to help out.
And then I go to third year andit's great and it's awesome.
And at third year Elizabeth andI are dating like officially.
You know, we were like friendsplus, so to speak.
And second year everybody knewwe liked each other but it was

(01:06:46):
just a whole thing, you know,stupid drama, whatever.
But we started dating November.
It was so funny because this wasI remember being at a
conference in November and Jesustold me to dump her.
And I heard two things Like I,I, he told me something like he
wanted me to pray for somebodyand kind of gave me specific
things to pray for.
And then he also told me todump her.

(01:07:08):
So I, I fleeced it out.
I was like, all right, well,I'm going to do that one.
And if that was you, then Iguess this one was.
You know, like I want I had totest, because otherwise I was
going to like, get behind meSatan.
You know like obviously you'rewrong.
Um, and so I went and I endedup.
I know, I remember I went to afriend's and I knocked on their
door and I go inside and I'mlike, okay, this is weird, but
this is what I think I'msupposed to pray and this is

(01:07:29):
what I think God said.
And they just started bawlingand you know, I was like, oh
crap, it's right.
So I, I literally remember I Idumped my, my wife, and I
remember breaking up with her,uh, and I remember how it
sounded, cause we were in a car,in a driveway, we're talking,
she's crying and and I knowcause I was the first guy she
ever dated ever.

(01:07:50):
Um, and so it was.
It was just really weird.
Now we still were friends,that's weird.
And we're at Bible school, andthat's weird.
But so we finished and wegraduated and I ended up having
to do I did third year, schoolof world missions, which means
at the end of the term, my finalproject was like a six-week

(01:08:15):
internship, and so I went and Idid a six-week internship with a
South week internship.
And so I went and I did a sixweek internship with a South
African missionary, and it was,it was ridiculous.
Um, I, it was crazy.
It was crazy because it wasdifferent than the mission stuff
.
I, so I'm going on missiontrips every year with this same
evangelist, and so I'm I'mseeing a different side, cause
this guy's living there, he'sgot kids, it's different.
And uh, man, he lived on thisproperty and it was like eight.

(01:08:37):
He's got kids, it's different.
And, man, he lived on thisproperty and it was like eight,
like I was going to say eightkilometers I've been in Thailand
too long oh, it was like eightacre property and I, there was
this granny flat in the back, itwas like this little house in
the back of the property andthat's where I was staying.
But every night I love him,he's like.
Every night, he's like, hey,watch for snakes, cause I got to
walk through the grass, youknow.

(01:08:58):
And he'd tell me still, oh yeah, I saw this eight foot Viper
here and I said, you know, I'mjust like, ah, so I'm out there
looking for snakes, all you know.
And he just like really enjoyedmessing with the intern, you
know, which I totally understandnow.
But I remember, I rememberlaying in my bed one time in the
thing, and I'm just layingthere and it's white walls and

(01:09:18):
it's pretty simple and things indifferent climates are mostly
made out of cement.
But I looked over and a spiderI watched it kind of come there
was like a wardrobe, you knowclock cabinet.
It came off the cabinet andthen started crawling down the
wall and I looked and it wasbigger than my palm, you know,
and I ain't sleeping until I'mdead, like I'm laying in bed

(01:09:40):
going, and I got it down and Itook a picture of it at the time
, next to my Bible and it waslike almost as wide as my Bible
and I I killed it thing you knowI mentioned, but I was like I
ain't sleeping with that Um andso, but that was it.
Just opened my eyes.
I saw so many cool things andso we traveled.
I have too many stories to tell.

(01:10:02):
You know, it was the secondtime I had a gun pointed at me.
I thought I was going to die.
In Mal, in Mvumba, malawi, we'regoing to do an outreach and
there's five of us now there'sthe missionary, a pastor from

(01:10:24):
Missouri, his son-in-law, me andthen this other guy from South
Africa who was a missionary inZambia, and so we're driving and
we're driving, think of, closeyour eyes and think of, like an
African road, you know, likemiddle of nowhere.
Everywhere you look, there'snothing for all day, there's

(01:10:46):
just nothing.
And we drive up to this hut andit's literally a tiny hut and
there's three guys with AKs andit's a checkpoint and, um, and
they're in their twenties, youknow and I don't speak what
they're speaking and but they'rebasically shaking down.
They want to bribe, but they'regoing through all our equipment
and it's hot and we're waitingand we're just hanging and it's
like forever.
And so finally, the SouthAfrican guy literally walks over

(01:11:06):
to one of the guys, throws hisarm around him and grabs and
twists his nipple and they allthree of them literally shoulder
their AKs and start yelling atus and I'm like, I'm, I'm, I'm
going to die.
This is it Like?
This is it Goodbye, you couldthrow my body in that ditch
right there and lion orsomething will eat me later.

(01:11:27):
You move the hut a quarter miledown the road.
No one will ever find us.
Sorry, mom, and it was probablyless than 10 seconds, but it
felt a lot longer, with peoplelike holding machine guns at you
, like I mean me to you, likethey're pointing a gun at me,
yelling in a dialect I don'tunderstand, and then they laugh

(01:11:49):
and we go and I'm like you, whatyou?
You got some big brass likeholy, he's like.
I was tired of waiting.
I'm like and that's your answerFind the guy with the gun and
squeeze his nipple.
That'll get you through whatthe heck is going on.
It's the first guy I've everheard that's been saved by a

(01:12:09):
purple nurple.
I know right, the Lord works inmysterious.
I wouldn't make a doctrine outof it.
He's got some big balls.
The Lord works in mysterious.
I wouldn't make a doctrine outof it, but he's got some big
balls.
I was like I don't understand.
He was off.

Speaker 3 (01:12:26):
We're just going to say he was a bit off.

Speaker 4 (01:12:26):
He made fun of us for putting on bug spray in Africa.
And the missionary's like, whenwas the last time you had
malaria?
He's like two months ago.
I sleep for half a day, it'sfine.
He played rugby in South AfricaLike he was, he was.
He was something else but but Imean it was.
It was amazing.
So, graduate Bible school, moveto Michigan and I'm working at

(01:12:49):
the church.
Um, and I, I still wasrebellious.
I remember making a Mohawk, afaux Hawk, into my hair for my
first day of work because Ididn't want to be conforming to
the, because I mean, this was ashirt and tie suit every Sunday
church that I'm working at asthe youth and associate pastor,
and so I really God, they had somuch grace because I thought I

(01:13:12):
knew everything and didn't knowanything all at the same time
and they just they worked withme and loved me.
And so I got to be a youthpastor and I learned a lot.
I got, I sat at the pastor.
He was so gracious to me.
Now it was it was a weirddichotomy because one, we're
family, so there's a lot of oddmixtures, but then also

(01:13:33):
ministry's tough, because whenyou're the pastor and ministry
is tough because when you're thepastor.
You're always the pastor and soyou're never vulnerable with
like there's this limit withpeople around you and it ends up
becoming most of your world,like your whole world becomes
your church.
So who can you talk to?

(01:13:54):
So you need other people thataren't, and so I kind of became
a weird sounding board within myand it was just cause it was
family, like so many things justgot muddy, uh and and I had no
idea what I was doing and youknow, they they'd never had,
like a youth pastor before, like.
So it was just.
It was a lot of muddy, uhthings that went on through
there just trying to figure thisout.
But I learned I mean I got tosit with him at counseling

(01:14:15):
sessions and he was a reallylike.
He was a good counselor, likehe'd sit and people would talk
and he was brilliant Ministrysessions we'd go and do old lady
Bible studies and we'd go prayfor people and we'd go do things
.
So I learned so many thingsabout practical one-on-one
praying and ministering and theHoly Spirit just leading you at

(01:14:40):
his side.
It was a great education.
So I'm there, I'm doing missionstuff and I'm working at the
church and then I end up in Peru, and it's been a year and a
half since I left Bible school.
I'd seen Elizabeth a couple oftimes.
I went to a graduation, I wentto a thing and I just saw her,
but it was whatever, and weended up in Peru together and I,

(01:15:04):
uh, I think if I hang out withher, I know my charming self,
I'm going to flirt, I'm going tolead her on and I don't think
I'm supposed to marry herbecause God told me to dump her.
So, instead of flirting withher and being nice, I was a
total jerk to my, you know, andthe more of the story I tell,
the worse I get.
So we'll just kind of summarize.

(01:15:25):
But I mean, she would sit nextto me at a meal and I'd get up
and move, like, and I didn'thave the intelligence or
skillset to actually communicate, I was just a jerk, so that.
So that went well.
My, my cousin, she was actuallyon the trip.
She's like I'm embarrassed tobe related to you.
She's like you're an idiot andI'm like, but I work for you,

(01:15:47):
you know, like, so, um, but itwas, and so, but I couldn't.
So we came back, I'm inMichigan and I I couldn't get
her out of my head.
And so I keep messaging andshe's awesome because she's
finally like hey, what are youdoing?
Like all right, what, why areyou talking to me?
Like if you, you know, she'slike you know, sit or get off
the pot, you know that kind ofthing.

(01:16:07):
And so I was like all right,and so we, we started.
We started dating in September,long-term, cause she lives in
Tulsa and I live in Detroit.
Uh, we got engaged in April.
Um, I, I flew there and I brokeinto her apartment and woke her
up cause that's the way youreally want to start every
relationship and I, I used ataco bell hot sauce packet that

(01:16:29):
said, will you marry me?
And that was, uh, what I gaveher to propose.
I did other things too, but uh,um, and then she moved to
Michigan in August and we gotmarried in October and so that
kind of started our, our familyand journey, and we're trying to
figure out marriage and we'retrying to figure out ministry.
And we had, no, we had no idea,because we didn't have a lot of

(01:16:52):
healthy back boundaries, wedidn't have a lot of healthy
understanding.
There wasn't great communityfor us.
Everyone in the church I workedat was either over 45 or under
19.
And we're stuck in our mid-20s,and we're the only mid-20s
there, and so we just reallydidn't know what we were doing.
We had no clue what we weredoing and so neither one of us

(01:17:13):
had great, great understanding.
And so I was just ignorant andthought everything was great.
And she was struggling becauseshe went from like Kansas small
town to like Tulsa was like amassive city for her.
Now she's in Metro Detroit, theking of sarcasm and frustration,
and you know, I mean, we'rejust, we're just not friendly
folk, you know, in general.

(01:17:34):
And so, uh, it's just majorculture issues and shock, and I
am just so dumb and I don't seeany of it.
I'm just blissful.
I'm like I get to have sex.
This is great, you know, causeI'm a young Christian guy.
You know I was a virgin when wegot married, so was she just
barely I'm the only guy she'sever kissed.
You know like she was amazing,she was perfect and I'm, you

(01:17:55):
know, I was still a heathen andan idiot, but uh, so we were
just, I was just excited and I,youth group was fun and church
was fun, and there was just, wewere trying to figure things out
, and so we, uh, we likedmissions though and I knew, I
knew I wasn't a pastor.
Like if I'm looking at thefive-fold ministry, because my

(01:18:18):
boss and we just were, wecouldn't have been more opposite
.
Now, he was very outgoing andwhen two people are allowed you
just assume they're similar, buthe was an artist.
Like he's an artist artist likeI remember he would make a
sculpture, have it bronzed andsell it like that's how he paid
for his wife's wedding rings.
Like he was an artist and itwas so easy for him he didn't
understand why everybodycouldn't do it which is really

(01:18:39):
frustrating, but whatever, uh,so I mean, if he said it's black
, I said it's white.
If he said it's up, I said it.
Like we couldn't.
You know, my dad's an engineer,my brain was engineering, his
brain was, you know, artist.
Like we couldn't have been moredifferent and how and how we we
did things and operated things.
So it was just there, was itwas always just different.
I knew I wasn't that like I'mnot a pastor, cause he's like a

(01:19:01):
shepherd of the flock and thatwas like his, his skillset and
his calling and his gifting was.
It was amazing, like he wasgreat at that niche and so I
knew I wasn't that and we reallyliked.
We liked missions, we liked theoutreach.
The guy who did our wedding wasJohn Smithwick, you know the
guy I met at the airport, but heperformed our wedding.

(01:19:22):
My wife worked for the missionsorganization before she moved
to Michigan, um, and so we'rejust trying to figure all this
stuff out.
I remember, oh man, this is bigCause.
I was freaking out before Istarted dating Elizabeth again,
because I'm a youth pastor, I'ma minister, I know I don't date
for fun, because I'm also livingin a fishbowl.
You know I can't just dateanybody and I I was, I was

(01:19:45):
freaking out and I I remember,literally I was living with my
parents and I'm on their backporch and I am yelling at God
Like I need.
I need a pillar of fire, I needa cloud, I need you to write it
in the sky, I need auto.
Like I need a pillar of fire, Ineed a cloud, I need you write
it in the sky, I need auto.
Like I need massive comp.
This is a big, big decision.
Do I date her?
If I date her, I will marry her.
Should I marry her?

(01:20:05):
Bible school told me the mostimportant decision you make is
who you marry, because they willeither make or break ministry,
they will make or break yourlife, you know.
Okay, so I'm freaking out aboutall this stuff and, um, because
I'm assuming big decision, bigconfirmation, big voice, god, I
mean, come on, bro, like I'm notsettling for anything but

(01:20:27):
skywriting and fire, you know,like this, but I mean I
genuinely am on my knees and Iremember talking to two
wonderful women in my life.
One was my cousin and the otherwas John Smithwick's wife, a
woman named Martine, and theyboth, in the same verbiage, at
different times, told me I wasan idiot, which is so
encouraging, you know, which isjust what.

(01:20:48):
But uh, but I remember, soclear they go, he'll lead you
the same way with the big thingsas he does the small things.
You don't get a differentleading, that still small voice
with something tiny, still smallvoice, something big.
You got to learn the voice.
You got to learn like you'renot getting a pillar of fire.

(01:21:09):
I mean he won't give you onejust to spite you, for feet's
sake.
I mean like uh-uh.
And when they said that man, itlike when it clicked, it just
like, oh well, then I knowexactly what to do.
Like uh-uh, and when they saidthat man, like when it clicked,
it's just like, oh Well, then Iknow exactly what to do.
Like I was waiting for allthese other things.
But on the inside in my knower,I already knew.
Like I already knew in myknower, I just wanted something
more.
I wanted something outside.

(01:21:29):
I thought big decision, bigproblem, big risk.
And it wasn't.
Everything's the same, it'salways the same.
It's down in the inside, it'sthat spirit of peace, it's that
peace that passes understanding.
It's the still small voice,it's just, it's the knowing on
the inside.
And and so we started dating.
We got married, lived there forseveral years, worked at the

(01:21:55):
church for for years, learned alot, screwed up a lot, was
stupid a lot.
We started a couple of yearsinto marriage.
We started trying, you know,which I always think is funny
because it's like, oh, so you'rehaving more sex.
You know, like we just say wesay trying, but we started
trying to have kids and itdidn't go well and we didn't
kind of understand it.

(01:22:16):
You know, you just think,because we're also faith people,
you know.
So I'm just like God's going todo it.
I'm a righteous man, I'm arighteous woman, we're doing
things right, we got Mary, thisis going to work.
And, uh, we went about a yearand I went and nothing's
happening.
And then I go, I went on amission trip for a week.
I took a student and when I cameback, my wife met me in an

(01:22:38):
airport she's got this hoodie onand I still remember it.
She her sister, who was livingwith us at the time literally
took the student aside, so itwas just me and her and she
unzipped and it said mommy onher t-shirt, and I lost my mind
and yelled a lot of things andsome of them weren't Jesusy, but

(01:22:59):
I was.
It was very, I was excited.
Um, I just came off a missiontrip.
I don't know why I had so much,you know, junk in my mouth, but
it came out, I was, I couldn'tlike, I was shocked, I couldn't
believe it and I it was.
You know, it was cloud nine, itcouldn't be better.
And so, uh, we come home and westart, you know, we took my
parents out to dinner and shedid the hoodie and the shirt and
it was, it was awesome, youknow.
And we are going through thisand about three weeks, in four

(01:23:21):
weeks, somewhere in there, shestarts bleeding pretty heavy.
And so at six weeks and, andshe's freaking out, she's a
nurse, she, she has a much more,you know, and I'm not there.
I mean she tells me what'sgoing on but I'm not
experiencing it like she'sexperiencing.
So I'm like I'm sure it's fine.
You know, I have my faith it'sgoing to be OK.

(01:23:41):
You know, god's got us.
We can do this.
You know, in Jesus name, you'reOK because I'm putting
everything into it.
This is, this is what I thinkI'm supposed to do.
And I mean, I just remember thelady.
She's just looking and she'slooking and I'm just watching
her face and she's just like I'm, I'm really sorry Like there's

(01:24:02):
nothing.
There's nothing growing.
You know, like I could seewhere you're pregnant, I could
see what you know, but you'renot where you should.
You know, like there's nothingthere and so, uh, we, I, it was.
It was surreal, it was kind ofwhat confirmed what my wife
believed, but I just didn't getit.
It didn't make sense to mebecause I'm like that, that

(01:24:24):
can't be true, that can't bereal.
I honestly, I think up untilthat time I didn't know anybody,
because once upon a time, Ithink miscarriages were more
something to be ashamed of more,something to be ashamed of.
Uh, they weren't openly talkedabout, probably for a while,
cause I'd never really heardsomebody talk about it.
I didn't really fullyunderstand it.
I didn't know anybody who hadone, um, because people didn't

(01:24:44):
talk about them a lot, and so Iwas really ignorant and I was
also really ignorant on how tohelp and.
But I mean I remember there wasan actual day where she
actually miscarried, uh, where Imean mean she, she spent time
in the bathroom and andphysically, you know, left our
baby and uh, and like that daywas just, I mean it was long, it

(01:25:05):
was painful for her.
I, I again I'm a failure becauseI can't get my wife pregnant.
I'm a failure because I can'thelp her with this.
I'm a failure.
You know, I'm this great man offaith.
With everybody else, I can goto a foreign country and I can
man.
I, I'd seen it.
I'd seen crazy stuff.
I literally remember I was on astage and I looked at a dude and

(01:25:27):
he'd been paralyzed for 14years on half his body and I
told him to stand up and he didand he started walking and I
didn't even know it.
Actually, I said stand up, andI was doing other things and
then, like a crowd startsfreaking out and somebody had to
tell me what happened, becauseworking with Jesus is like being
a participant and a spectatorin the coolest sport ever all at
the same time.
Cause you're like, yeah, I gotto do that, but that wasn't me.

(01:25:50):
Like I couldn't have been moreignorant if I tried.
You know, like, um, but uh, Ican hear the sound booth
laughing at me.
That's great.
So I I don't know why I'mfailing in my own life so much.
I don't know why it feels likeI can't.
Cause again, I got and maybe Ijust didn't have.

(01:26:13):
I didn't know how to ask theright questions.
I didn't know how to open up.
I spent so many years as achild trying to protect that.
I didn't know how to bevulnerable because I had nobody
telling me it wasn't my faultagain, but I didn't open that
door to anybody.
I didn't seek anybody, I didn'tlook for it and there wasn't

(01:26:33):
anybody in my sphere that I hadcreated relationship with to do
that.
So I'm a young husband, mywife's, miscarrying our child in
the bathroom, physically goingthrough hell.
I'm sitting in the living room,you know, just going.
I suck, I'm worthless, likethis is terrible, like what?

(01:26:56):
Obviously I'm failing, you knowsomething's wrong with me and
so.
But I mean that was real for me.
I had no idea because I didn'thave any other context.
Nothing else made sense.
I know God's still good, I knowhe can do anything.
Obviously the problem's on myend and I just went into that
loop and internalized it andthat was my mentality for

(01:27:16):
everything and so everything,and that that really carried
through every time there wassomething I did wrong or right
at church.
You know, however it went, itwas my fault, just for me.
Like I'm, I'm, I'm failing.
So I'm doing everything I can inlife just to hide my own
inadequacies, hide my ownfailures.
I'm avoiding anything that'schallenging Cause in my
experience as a kid, if it wasfailures, I'm avoiding anything

(01:27:37):
that's challenging because in myexperience as a kid, if it was
hard I'd fail, I'd get exposed.
So just stick to what's easy.
And my wife grew up on a farm,which means it was the opposite.
If it was hard, you just workharder.
You know you wonderful farmpeople I don't know if you're a
farmer, but I know he is but ifit's hard, you work harder and

(01:28:00):
you get it.
And for me.
I didn't have that experiencebecause, no matter how hard I
worked as a kid, those wordsweren't coming.
So I just learned if it's hard,you avoid it because you're
going to fail and look stupid.
And so I, I would do that andeverything.
And it caused problems inmarriage.
It caused problems at work.
It caused problems because I'mjust taking the path of least
resistance wherever I can, notrealizing it, not consciously,

(01:28:23):
but I mean, this is justmentality, survival mode.
And then, a couple of years in,so we're still trying, we're
still going through it.
And then, in 2010, I wastalking to my boss and I
remember giving him two yearsnotice.
I said I think I got about twomore years in this position.
I really think I'm going to domission stuff.

(01:28:43):
I really think I'm going to goand travel.
I really think that's what I'mreally called to do is missions.
And so he was great.
It was funny because to themonth he's like all right, well,
it's been two years, like we'llfigure it out.

Speaker 1 (01:28:57):
It was funny Cause to the, to the month he's like all
right well, it's been two years, you know, like, we'll figure
it out.

Speaker 4 (01:28:59):
You know I was like, oh, okay, you know, and um, but
we're like, okay, what do we donow?
So we transitioned to, uh, mekind of being an itinerant.
We started a ministry.
It was jet ministries JeffElizabeth Travis, j E T man.
We were clever it's a littleplane logo, you know, super cool
.
And I'm trying to itinerate.
We're, we're raising funds, I'mgoing on mission trips with

(01:29:22):
John Smithwick and then I'mpaying for, like, my own meat,
like we call it crusade orfestival, so like he'd have one
in this town and I'd sponsor onein this town and I'm preaching
there and you know, and it was,it was great and amazing, but I
didn't have great skill sets, Ididn't have a lot of
organizational leadership.
I just didn't have a lot ofstuff my wife's a nurse working
her butt off paying the bills.

(01:29:43):
I'm fixing up a house we boughtwhich I had no idea what I was
doing anyway and trying to startthis ministry because I think
it's what I'm supposed to do In2012,.
I go down to this conferenceand I remember going down there
and I'm trying to connect withpeople, cause that's what you do

(01:30:03):
you have to go and makeconnections and smooch, I can
come preach at your church andblah, blah, blah blah and uh, I,
I meet some people but I'm notmaking any great connections.
I'm, uh, I'm.
I met some guy and I thought hewas pretty obnoxious but
everybody knew who he was and hewas very sarcastic and I was
like this is really confusing,because the last conference I
went to him wearing a suit andtie and this one you know that

(01:30:24):
guy's in a t-shirt like thisdoesn't make sense.
You know what's happening andso we, I leave and I'm like okay
, you know, I don't know what'sgoing on.
I'm sleeping on a buddy's couch.
You know it's goofy.
I had, I had fun, I met somepeople, but you know it's not I,
what my phone wasn't ringingoff the hook and like a week
later he actually called thisguy.
His name was Justin and he justsaid hey, I think you got a lot

(01:30:58):
of stuff that I had.
Like, you're like me and mychurch in my area needs more of
that.
He goes what are you doing?
I was in Troy.
He goes what are you doing inTroy, michigan?
You know who are you, what doyou do and why do you do it.
There Was, I think, his histhing.
He said come on down, check usout.
And so I literally drive downto Lewisburg, ohio.
Um, you know, which was reallyhard to find on map quest at the
time, you know, I had to printoff the pages to follow the
step-by-step instructions forall you kids who have no idea

(01:31:19):
what that is.
But I mean, I'd never been in atown so small my whole life.
Like I was like my high school.
He's like there's like 1500people in this town.
I'm like it was like my highschool, like what the heck is
going on here?
Like it was crazy.
But there was something aboutit, there was something about
this church and he I would sayJustin, is the greatest

(01:31:40):
recruiter I've ever seen.
He is just, he just knows whathe wants and he just he's
relentless.
And so he's like you're gonnacome down here.
And I'm like whatever dude,this is Ohio.
I don't know how to tell youthis, but I was born and raised
in Michigan.
Um, I'm not a diehard sportsguy, but I just know to hate you
.

Speaker 3 (01:31:57):
You know like I mean that's that's all I got you know
.

Speaker 4 (01:32:01):
And so, um, feelings mutual.
Yeah, I know, yeah, I've heardUm.
And so we cool, man, I'm there,I see what they're doing,
that's cool.
It told me stuff man, I'mreally interested in your church
, I'm really interested in howyou do things, that's great.
But no, and so he keeps bugging.

(01:32:21):
And then my wife and I in thefall we came down and they were
doing a big outreach event, fallFest, and we went and worked
and she's seeing everything andwe're checking it out.
And he's still bugging me.
And I remember, literally we gotto the first light the only
light, you know, in town,leaving, and she's like I ain't
moving, this little freakingtown.
And I was like, yeah, you know,because she grew up in a town

(01:32:43):
of like 900 people, you know, inthe middle of nowhere, kansas.
And so I was like all right,cool, you know that's dumb, but
at the meeting it was April 20th2012.
I'm at that same meeting whereI met Justin.
On the inside, I heard it, andit was just one of those things
where I knew on the inside, Iknew in my knower and it was

(01:33:03):
clear as day You're moving intwo years, get ready.
And so I'm like, ok, so that'sin the back of my mind all the
time.
And I remember going home and Iwalked down the steps, she's on
the couch and I go hey, we'removing in two years.
She goes where I go.
I don't know she goes, why I go, I don't know she goes, okay,
and that was it.

(01:33:24):
Like that was our wholeconversation.
And so I'm like, oh man, you'reamazing Cause I'm crazy.
But uh, so this whole time, whenJustin's calling me, when he's,
when he's pursuing me, whenwe're having these meetings,
like I know I'm moving somewhere, I just really want to go
anywhere.
But Ohio, anywhere, but thecountry, you know, I'm like God,
surely they need pastors inHawaii, you know like.
You know you're trying to dothat Like Southern Cal Jesus, I

(01:33:46):
heard there's lots of heathensthere.
We, you know something, and andhe just, it was, it was the no
and the no or it was the 20, 40,you know by.
You know because, because innovember it's like no way to
this town, you know.
But by december it's like, ohwell, we're gonna go somewhere,
you know.
And then january, but then byapril I'm in justin's up in

(01:34:08):
detroit for a conferencingmeeting thing and I literally go
.
We're moving to ohio to come toyour church and he just looks
at me because at that point I, I, you know he's recruiting, but
I think he probably did that alot and I don't think he knew.
And just beyond, I mean we'dbeen face to face.
This is the third time I'veever seen him face to face.
You know, like we don't knoweach other and there's not like

(01:34:29):
face, like we're not textingbuddies or like we don't talk.
I don't know him.
I didn't think I knew his lastname.
You know like, and he justlooks at me and I could tell it
Like I was, like is that stillOK?

Speaker 3 (01:34:41):
You know, but I was like I don't want anything.

Speaker 4 (01:34:42):
I was like I just think I'm supposed to come to
your church, so we're going toyour church, you know.
And so we, we he's like, ok,you know, and that was that was
kind of it.
And so we literally sold ourhouse, moved into my parents,
wrapped up, packed everything,visited Ohio looking for a place

(01:35:04):
.
I remember in October we went,came down here, looked around,
went to a couple of places, sawsome really bad apartments.
I'm trying to remember where wewent but like thinking now like
oh yeah, we were in reallysketchy parts of town.
I'm like, oh yeah, we were inreally sketchy parts of town,
you know, like we were in partsof weird Dayton that were just
not great, looking for places tolive and nothing panned out and
we had to go back.

(01:35:25):
My wife still got her job,we're still working, and it was
the first week of Decemberbefore I found a place and we
moved December 13th and so alittle before, a week before
we're moving, I mean I alreadyrented a U-Haul, I packed
everything and saying it nowit's like I was such a great man
of faith.
No, I was really just ignorant,like I just was.

(01:35:46):
I just kinda I knew when I I'msupposed to go.
So I went, like so I preparedto go.
I didn't, I didn't know, Ididn't know.
It was like I'm going to go getmy shoulder fixed, like he just
he uses the foolish things ofthe world that confound the wise
.
I'm the foolish thing,apparently, because he just I

(01:36:08):
really did.
I was like, okay, we're justgoing to go.
And so we just figured it outand God bless my wife, cause
that's not a comfortableposition, I think, for a woman
and a mom, you know, hoping tobe a mom and all that stuff.
But we did.
We rented a house in Eaton andthen we came down here and
Justin starts talking to me.
You know, I've been a youthpastor and associate pastor for

(01:36:29):
several years, but I am, I'mtrying to be a missionary
because I'm an evangelist, I'mnot a pastor.
We come down here and he's likehey, we're starting a second
campus and you're going topastor.
And I was like you're an idiotbecause I'm not that guy.
Like I was like I've seen thepastor shoes there, you know,
they're penny loafers, I'm insandals, like this ain't going,

(01:36:50):
you know.
And so he's like all right,well, help me, I got this team,
we're working on this campus.
We, you know, we have this planwhere, you know, we have this
thing going on.
Okay, cool.
So we're start helping, westart pouring in, we're there.
Meanwhile we're still trying,you know, my wife and I we're
still trying to have kids.
Uh, we left the church whereeveryone was older, young, you

(01:37:21):
know, but there wasn't anybabies, there wasn't a lot of
people pregnant.
We knew people who never hadkids, you know, uh, but we came
here and it was like PrebleCounty had something in the
water, cause everybody's rabbitswere like there's just babies
flying off the shelves, um,everywhere, and it was.
It was awkward and it wasuncomfortable.
You know cause I'm trying and,but I remember the executive
pastor, keith, really goodfriend, but he tells he loves
telling stories on me.
But he'll tell a story where heremembers me being in like the
lobby of church and people goinghey, what are you doing?
I'm from Detroit, you know,cause that's how he impersonates

(01:37:43):
me.
Apparently, I used to be loudand they're like what are you
doing here?
I have no idea.
I came to go to church, likeyou know, and, but I did, I
hadn't cause people in Michiganthey're going.
Why are you going on?
I don't know.
Do you know anyone there?
I know a guy.
What are you going to do?
I don't know we're going tolive, I don't know.
Like I had no answers foranything, I didn't have a job.

(01:38:04):
We I mean we just got a houselike a week before.
I mean, I, I had nothing, I hadno reason to go, but it was.
It was that.
It was that knower and um, andI, I developed my own little
system to where I would testthings.
So before I mean weeks leadingup and my 20% knowing and my 40%
knowing and growing, thatknower, I started saying things

(01:38:26):
out loud.
I started saying you know, I'mgoing to stay in Michigan where
my family is, where my friendsare, where I have a lovely house
that I really like, and I justgot nice and I, you know, I got
to like I have this and my wifehas a job and it's good, like
best scenario, and I'm just onthe inside it's like somebody
offered me a liver sandwich orsomething that just I don't want

(01:38:48):
that.
And then I would say out loudagain I hit pause and go.
I'm going to move to thebutthole of America, ohio.
I don't know anyone don't have ajob, I don't have a reason I
don't have, like I'm I'mpainting the worst, like I will
die of some disease in ohio,like I'm painting the worst
picture and just down here it'speace, and I'm just like like

(01:39:11):
I'm trying to convince him asmuch, like, but I was like I I
can't shake that and and I justI mean I was, I was trying to
test it as much as I could and Idid that over and over and over
, like I'm saying I'm by myself,speaking out loud and I mean
just on the inside, I got nope,and yes, a red light, green
light all day.
And I'm just like, all right,so we did.
And I had no idea what I wasgoing to do, I had no idea why I

(01:39:34):
was going to go, but it justseemed good, it was seemed right
and you know, looking back athistory, like that seems to be
my life.
I, I, I didn't know about theBible school, but I thought I
was supposed to go, so I went.
I didn't know about, you know,the, the wife, but he said go,
and so I married.
I didn't know about Ohio, so Imoved, but I moved to Ohio

(01:39:54):
because he said it and moved.
But I moved to Ohio cause hesaid it and so, long story short
, it was not that any of this isshort, but we're going.
You know, we're up to 2006, youknow, or something like that.
Um, but we, uh, we ended upcoming and, uh, we was on this
committee and we're helpingstart it and we're like, okay,
we're going to help launch thiscampus.

(01:40:15):
They're they're they'restarting a church at a YMCA.
Sounds good, we'll figure itout.
You know, I'm here to help andJustin and I got matched.
Our task, you know, dividingthings was to find the pastor.
All right, cool.
So I remember walking into hisoffice and this is in like March
of uh, of of 2014.
And, um, I walked in his office.

(01:40:37):
I'm like, hey, do we want to goto a conference?
Do we need to go to a Bibleschool?
Like, hey, what are we going todo to get this ball rolling?
And he just looks and goes it'syou, I'm just waiting for you
to hear from God.
And I was like, whatever.
This again, you know, whatever.
You know, idiot.
And then that day I went andmet my wife for coffee at
Roscoe's and it's when thecouches were up front.

(01:40:59):
And she's sitting there and I'mwalking behind the couch and
I'm like you're never going tobelieve what Justin said.
You know.

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BeTempered Episode 59 Part 1 – Battling Insecurity, Answering God’s Call, and Moving to One of the World’s Most Dangerous Places

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}BeTempered Episode 59 Part 1 – Battling Insecurity, Answering God’s Call, and Moving to One of the World’s Most Dangerous Places