BeTempered Episode 59 Part 2 - Jeff Travis on Special Needs, Spiritual Warfare, and Surrender

In Episode 59 Part 2 of BeTempered, hosts Dan Schmidt and Ben Spahr sit down with Jeff Travis for a raw, unflinching conversation about faith forged in the fires of real life. Jeff opens up about his remarkable journey—from a struggling student to a reluctant pastor and, eventually, a missionary in Thailand. What begins as a familiar story of answering God’s call soon unfolds into something far deeper—a father’s desperate fight to protect his family amid cultural isolation, special needs parenting, and relentless spiritual warfare.

After years of battling infertility and enduring painful adoption setbacks, Jeff and his wife Elizabeth finally became parents to three beautiful children. When they felt called to the mission field, they sold everything and moved to Thailand, believing they were stepping into their greatest adventure. Instead, they found themselves in a harrowing struggle as their oldest son developed severe behavioral challenges in a place with almost no resources or support.

With brutal honesty, Jeff dismantles the myth of the bulletproof spiritual leader, sharing how God often works through our most broken places. When bombs from a nearby civil war literally rattled their home while their son was in crisis, Jeff faced the hardest question of his life: Was God asking him to sacrifice his family for ministry, or was caring for his family the ministry itself?

Whether you’re a parent navigating a child’s special needs, someone wrestling with feelings of failure, or simply searching for authentic faith in life’s messiness, this conversation will both comfort and challenge you. Jeff’s story is a powerful reminder that sometimes the most spiritual thing we can do is admit when we need help—and that vulnerability, not perfection, is the true path to healing.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, my name is Allie Schmidt.
This is my dad, Dan.
He owns Catron's Glass.

Speaker 2 (00:04):
Thanks, allie.
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(00:26):
Kitchen's best.
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Speaker 3 (00:30):
Welcome to the Be Tempered Podcast, where we
explore the art of findingbalance in a chaotic world.

Speaker 4 (00:35):
Join us as we delve into insightful conversations,
practical tips and inspiringstories to help you navigate
life's ups and downs with graceand resilience.

Speaker 3 (00:44):
We're your hosts, Dan Schmidt and Ben Spahr.
Let's embark on a journey tolive our best lives.

Speaker 5 (00:50):
This is Be Tempered.
Welcome back to the Be Temperedpodcast.
This is episode 59, part two,and if you haven't listened to
part one yet, hit pause and goback.
Trust us you'll want the fullstory.
In this second half, wecontinue the powerful
conversation with Jeff Travis,diving even deeper into the
challenges, the breakthroughsand the moments of faith that

(01:10):
shaped the journey.
So, wherever you are driving,walking or winding down, get
ready to be encouraged,challenged and reminded that
growth often comes through thefire.

Speaker 6 (01:20):
Here's part two, and that day I went and met my wife
for coffee at Roscoe's and it'swhen the couches were up front
and she's sitting there and I'mwalking behind the couch and I'm
like, dude, you're never goingto believe what Justin said.
I told him let's go somewhereand he said it's you.
And I'm like whatever.
And she goes well, and I was.
So I was like you, traitor, wewere on the same no pastor team

(01:42):
Like you and me.
We were on the same no pastorteam like you and me.
What the heck, you know, becauseI was convinced I'm not that
guy, this isn't my path.
I was convinced, I knew I wassupposed to be in ohio.
You know, I don't.
I didn't do well withconnecting dots apparently.
I just thought I'm like I'm notthat, I'm that, you know.

(02:03):
And, uh, she goes well, we'regoing to.
You know, we're going to helplaunch it.
We're kind of going to do thejob in the beginning anyway,
until whoever's there.
So you know, we can kind of I'mlike, oh, you betrayed me, like
this.
That's my thinking.
So we went and met with.
We met with Justin and his wife, jenny, at their house and it
was like, okay, what's thisreally look like, you know?

(02:24):
Cause I could tell it'sdifferent.
There were things that weren'tlike.
I thought he wasn't anythinglike the other pastor I'd worked
with, and so, you know, I'm alot like him.
I wasn't.
I knew I wasn't the otherpastor, I knew my calling was
different, I knew my skillsetwas different, I knew everything
about my demeanor was different, you know.
And so so we're like, all right, we will.

(02:48):
He kind of laid it out, this iswhat it looks like, this is
what it means, you know, andthis is what we expect.
And blah, blah, blah.
And then we're like all right,we'll commit to a year, We'll
give you a year, get this thinggoing.
And he just looks at, he goesI'll take no less than three.
And I thought my wife had astroke right then, like, like
her face just was like uh, likeI was like it sounded like a

(03:09):
life sentence in prison to us,like it was like, no, I don't
want to be in church forever, Iwant to go see the world.
You know like, and uh, and wewere actually going.
That was a Wednesday.
We were going Friday to CostaRica on a mission trip, and so
we're like, oh, we'll pray aboutit and we I mean we're in our
element, you know, we're there,we're doing outreaches and

(03:31):
praying and like we're holding Imean babies, and I mean we're
doing stuff.
It's awesome.
And I can't get this goofychurch thing out of my mind, and
she can't either, and we'relike fine, three years, you know
start the clock you know, but Imean, it was again.
It was that piece not the thingI wanted, not the thing I knew,

(03:53):
not the thing I understood,cause I didn't know anything
about pastoring a church.
I, that was such a, that wassuch a different concept to me,
uh, that I was so clueless on.
I was like this doesn't makesense.
You know, I I follow orders.
Great, I'm not.
I'm not that guy.
I'm really good at beingcoached, I'm really good at blah
, blah, blah, but this isn't mywheelhouse and you know, I'm I'm

(04:14):
obnoxious and honestly, I caremore about the, the center, than
the same.
Like, oh you, you know, jesus,awesome, I don't care about you
anymore.
Like, let's find somebody whodoes.
Like that was kind of my heartand so, uh, but we, we said okay
, and so we started working,went through the whole gamut.
Uh, meanwhile we're stilltrying.

(04:36):
I'm working odd jobs, my wife is, I mean, we moved here, I'm,
I'm shoveling snow at 4am forpeople and and I'm the new guy
in the crew, and so the like 20year olds driving the truck, the
32 year olds outside shovelingthe walks, you know, um, the
guys didn't know my name, butthey knew my last name was
Travis, so they just called meRandy, which didn't make sense

(04:58):
to me.
I uh, I literally moved.
I moved to Preble County and Iremember the first day I get in,
it's like 5 am and I'm likethis is stupid.
I didn't used to drink coffeeuntil I started doing snow
plowing in Preble County.
But I got in the car and theguy's like hey, randy, how you
doing?
And I was like where am I?
Like how far south, you know, Ionly drove like four hours on

(05:19):
75 south from Detroit.
Like what, how did I get toKentucky?
But it was just a differentworld.
But we're, we're working oddjobs, we're doing it, we're
trying to figure this thing out.
In September we launched thechurch.
My wife's a nurse, she'sworking second shift, I'm
working landscaping and coaching, swimming at the YMCA and just

(05:42):
trying to get the church goingin the community.
We're not seeing each other.
I, it was in November.
She's like, hey, I got thisgoing, this going on, and, by
the way, I hate you.
And I was like what you know?
And she's like we don't seeeach other, like we're, we're
literally just passing eachother in the hallway, you know,

(06:06):
and, and at best, you know,we're trying still, for you know
what is this year?
Like four, five of trying andstill nothing since the first
time, nothing since themiscarriage, and now we're in a
land of rabbits, you know.
And now I'm jumping into, I'mjumping into pastoring, to where
I get to preach mother's dayfor the first time, cause when
you're a youth pastor, a socialpastor, you don't preach
holidays.
You know, that main guypreaches Easter.

(06:27):
The main guy preaches Mother'sDay and Father's Day, like the
main guy.
So I'd never done any of those,I'd never spoken on those.
So you know, this is my firstMother's Day.
Well, that was fun, because mywife's leading worship and I'm,

(06:48):
you know all the mom stuff, youknow.
And then I'm doing father's dayand dads, you're great and
amazing and someday I hope to beone like you know, uh, and it's
just that failure thing again.
And so my wife's hurting andshe's dying because obviously
what's wrong with us andeverybody we know is getting
pregnant and everybody we knowis having kids, and so life just
became very, life became verycompartmentalized, because I
have to be that person at church.

(07:09):
So I'm just playing my roles.
I learned this as a kid.
I got really good at it.
You know how would the role Iplay at school, the role I play
at home, the role I play this,that.
So I'm playing my roles.
I'm the pastor guy and I wasn'tdisingenuous, I wasn't like
faking any, but I just kind ofknew what hat I had to wear for
that position and then whatthings to shut off in that

(07:30):
position.
So I'm great at helping you.
I'm great at you know I cancounsel you and do your wedding,
do your funeral, preach onSunday.
I mean, the church is growing.
It's great.
It really was.
It was so much fun and I lovedit and I'm watching people get
just lives change.
It was so much fun, Iabsolutely was addicted to it.
And then on the flip side, I'mI'm just hurting.

(07:53):
And so finally my wife, uh,started coming to me about
adoption, because we knewseveral couples that were in
their late forties at the timeand they were believing to have
kids.
They were using it, just likeus.
We're trying to get pregnant,blah, blah, blah.
And they're in their 40s andlate 40s and even into 50s and
they still had nothing.
And Elizabeth's like I don'twant to do that, I think I'm

(08:17):
supposed to be a mom.
Look at adoption, and for meadoption was a failure.
It's a faith failure, like fromin my mind you know, I'm
adopting a, I'm going to bebabysitting somebody else's kid
for life, like that's what Ithought.
And I never babysat, thatwasn't my gig.
I liked playing with otherpeople's kids sometimes, you
know, but mostly I liked sendingthem back to their parents,

(08:39):
like I just wasn't, that wasn'tmy wheelhouse, and so, um, I
didn't like the idea ofbabysitting.
I didn't like the idea that Iwas a failure.
Um, I didn't have enough faithto get pregnant.
I didn't have enough faith toblah, blah, blah and so.
But I love my wife and I didn'tknow how else to help her.
Again, I'm feeling like a loser.

(09:00):
I'm a powerless husband.
Um, I didn't know how to fix it.
Cause I assume that's my job.
Uh, because I think a lot oftimes we do.
We think it's our job to fixeverything, it's our job to do
everything, it's our job to healeverything, Like that's our job
because we're the fixers.
You know, Um and uh they.
So years ago, this was the bestlesson I learned about ladies.

(09:23):
I remember I'm sitting in mydorm room and I have a friend
named Jessica, and I'm sittingin a dorm room, I'm watching TV
and she walks in, doesn't sayanything.
She literally took a pillow,put it in my lap, put her head
down and just started crying.
You know, because that's whatevery guy is so comfortable with
, and I'm I just kind of frozeand it was like 10 minutes she's

(09:50):
just crying.
She has a boyfriend, we're goodfriends, like it's nothing
weird.
And she gets up, gave me a hugand left and I was like, and
then later I was like that wasthe nicest thing.

Speaker 1 (09:56):
I was like I literally didn't say words,
because I know that's what Ineed.
I was like okay, you know.

Speaker 6 (09:58):
So I guess sometimes talking isn't always the best,
but I remember learning like, oh, I didn't need to fix your
problem, I just was there andyou cried, and that's great, but
but I'm still trying to fixeverything.
And so, I agree, we startadoption and adoption's
expensive like crazy, like the.
We found an agency.
My wife is a researcher.
She found an agency.

(10:19):
You know good review, you knowall the things.
Cause I didn't know how to dothis.
I mean it's crazy, you know,cause in my mind adoption is the
.
You know the TV ads.
You know over like 10 cents aday, or you know you can adopt
this kid or whatever.
I didn't know anyone who hadadopted.
We were very ignorant on this,and so we looked at foster care.
We looked at, we looked at alot of different things we knew

(10:39):
for us.
We went to some meetings aboutfostering, but I knew the goal
of fostering was to get thechild back with their parents,
and I knew we couldn't do that.
I was like I can't do that, Ican't have a kid, and then like
we won't be able to handle that,I know it.
And so we ended up going withadoption.
So then this process, I mean westarted in January with
paperwork and we had to takeparenting classes and we had to

(11:02):
go through interviews and we hadto get housing inspections and
we had, I mean, it took us sixmonths and then it was like
twenty four thousand dollars outof the gate 24, five and so we
got a loan and we raised moneyand we're, you know, and we're
pastoring a church as well, andso people know, I mean we're
pretty open about it to a degreethat we're starting this

(11:22):
process once we got going, but Istill am, I'm not on board,
because I'm still thinking I'mfailing, I'm still thinking this
is wrong.
I still don't want to babysitand God bless me.
In April of 24, no April ofwhatever year, that was 2016,
april of 16, we're at a meetingand the main speaker had adopted

(11:43):
, and I didn't know who he was,I didn't know anything, but he
had adopted all four of his kidsand they're adults now and and
so I ended up, somehow I endedup across from him at a dinner
and it was.
It was Jesus, was very kind, hereally is nice to me because,
you know, I had no reason to bewith the main guy at a dinner.
You know a bunch of people.

(12:09):
But he starts telling me hisstory and for him his story was
he was like a fifth generationpastor.
They couldn't get pregnant andhe thought adoption meant the
lineage of pastors, ministers inhis family was ending.
So that was a huge failure.
And he's like a teacher atBible schools and like he's a
pretty big name in faith circlesand, like you know, it was a
huge failure.
And he's like a teacher atBible schools and like he's a
pretty big name in faith circlesand, like you know, it was a
big failure.
And he was praying one day andGod told him, asked him hey,

(12:32):
what part do you play in thechild?
You know, like, what do youbring to the table?
And he's like the flesh.
You know my, my seed, or youknow all that stuff.
And God said what do I play?
He goes, the spirit, the person, you know the life.
And God basically said I canput your kid in any flesh, in

(12:55):
any bun, in any oven, like Icould put your kid, the same
spirit I put in your wife'sbelly, I can put in another
belly.
I can do that.
So don't think that somethinghas to end because your part's
different, my part's not.
And so he told me that storyand kind of how he coped with it
and he's like I got, three ofmy kids are in ministry, you

(13:16):
know, or something like.
Something like that.
I'm trying to remember exactly.
So that might be wrong, but itdoesn't matter.
But that helped me because Iwas like, okay, so I stopped
thinking about babysitting, Ijust started praying God, hey, I
want my kid.
I don't care what oven thebun's in, I don't care what they
look like, you know whatever,make them cuter than me, you
know whatever.
But like, I want my kid.
And so that's kind of where westarted putting our faith.

(13:38):
And so that was great.
Like now I was on board, sothat's April, by August we
finally get approved.
You can throw your hat in thering, you know we've got all the
paperwork, all this stuff.
It's amazing.
And so what was hard about theadoption and this was just the
way our agency worked is theywould send an email.
Mom comes into the option office, you know, hey, I'm pregnant,

(14:01):
I'd like to give my baby up foradoption.
And they get information abouther as much as they can History,
dad history, if they can, anykind of mental stuff, health
stuff, drug stuff, like whateverit is, and we get these, we get
these little bios and you getan email and you get a bio and
you have to say, yes, I want tobe in the running for her to
choose me, because the mom makesthe choice, or no, I don't, or

(14:24):
you don't say anything and youdon't get put in anyway.
But there's lots of like 60families waiting, so there's
like a clock on this.
So like I'd get texts from mywife check your email, you know
cause she'd get an email andthen I'd have to check it.
Oh, it looks good, okay, let'sgo, you know.
And then you send it in and youwait.
For days and unless you'repicked you don't hear anything.

(14:53):
And every now and then, likeonce or twice a month, they'd
send out kind of updates like,oh, this family, because they're
trying to encourage you, thatother families got matched, you
know.
And really you're like, screwyou, you know.
But so it's like, oh, I guessthey pick them, you know.
And really you're like, screwyou, you know.
But so it's like, oh, I guessthey pick them, you know.
And then so we, we threw ourhat in the ring in in August.
I mean, we were throwing ourhat at everything.

(15:14):
We, you know, we didn't careabout race, and we weren't.
We didn't care about race, wedidn't care about, you know,
color, gender.
Like we were fine, we, we werepretty open with anything.
And so in September we threwour hat in the ring somewhere
and at the end of September weget a phone call that we were in
contention for a lady who likedus but she was going into

(15:36):
premature labor.
Like, are we still interested?
And we're like, yes, we'restill interested, let's go, you
know.
And then nothing.
And like a day went by and theyfinally called us back Cause
we're like, ah, are we gettinggood today?
Like what's happening?
You know, you're on the edge ofyour seat.
And then they call us back andlike, well, she didn't go into
labor, she didn't have the baby,she's still interested in you,

(15:58):
but she doesn't want to meet,she doesn't want to talk, on
zero contact.
We're like, oh, okay, so are weMatt?
Like is this like official?
And I think it was till likemid October, till it was like
finally official.
Like she, you know, bigdecision for a mom, crazy stuff,
like just just out of the youknow, just wild and so but in
October it was like official,okay, you're matched.

(16:20):
And she's, she has anappointment, she's going to be
induced on December 1st.
You know you can go to thehospital, you'll be in another
room, she'll have the baby,they'll bring it to you.
You know all this stuff andwe're like, amazing.
So we're celebrating our church.
We made announcements.
You know we took the pictureswith a car seat.
You know, coming in December of2020, 14,.

(16:40):
You know our baby uh, tell thechurch.
We have baby showers.
We buy the crib, make thenursery.
I mean we just we go throughthe whole thing.
We got names picked out, we layin bed every night and we're
praying for our son, you know,cause she was having a boy.
We picked out a name.
We called them by name, youknow, like our last name, his
first name, you know everything.

(17:01):
We went through it, um, for awhile.
And then November 30th was aWednesday and I got a phone call
about 10 am, because I don't gountil about 11 on Wednesdays
because we had church that night, so we pushed back our schedule
that day.
And I get a phone call and it'sthe agency and she just said
she's changed her mind, she'sgoing to keep the baby, and that

(17:23):
was the day before she.
So I mean, we had a hotelbooked, we were going to keep
the baby, and that was the daybefore she.
So I mean we had a hotel booked, we were going to leave that
night, drive to the hotel, staythe night and then in the
morning go to the hospital anddo the whole thing.
And uh, I remember I, I fell onmy knees, I dropped the phone, I
, I told my wife and it wasn't along conversation.

(17:43):
It was like you know, hey,these, these things happen, you
know.
But you know, we'll see.
And she, even the, the socialworker was very nice, but she's
like she saw a family and theyconvinced her to keep it and
they said they'd help she goesin.
Our experience they don't, butthis is her decision, you know,
and went through it and so Ilost it.

(18:03):
I mean I'm, I fell completelyapart.
This was, this was a lossgreater than even it felt like
the miscarriage was.
This was bigger to me than thatit was.
It was total mess and my wife'samazing, I'd say, the gift of
faith was the time I saw anoperation, because to watch her
I'm sitting in the bedroom, I'mon my knees and I look over at
her and it was like.

(18:23):
It was like having a marionetteand somebody pulled all the
strings, like she just went upstraight and she goes, it's
going to be okay, and I'm, I'mcrying like a baby, like I'm
losing it.
We went and told the pastors andI lost it with them and so I
kind of stayed home for the dayand my wife it was Wednesday
night church.
She led worship that night.
I'm in the balcony just losingmy stuff because nobody knows.

(18:46):
We told a couple people becausewe're still hoping that she's
going to change her mind.
You know we'll get that calltomorrow, not my.
Saw the kid, he's ugly.
You know you have a murder.
I don't know.
You know I'm just I'm hopingfor something.
And so we literally did.

(19:07):
We went out there, we, we wentto the hotel, we, we prayed, we
waited, I'm getting.
I mean, I got over 50 textmessages that morning day
congratulating me on becoming afather, so excited for me, so
encouraging, and and so by bylate that afternoon I had to go
on Facebook and and just kind ofexplain what happened.
And then I wrapped it up withlike hey, we appreciate your
prayers, but we don't want yourcomments or opinions.

(19:27):
Please keep them to yourself.
Like I don't.
I don't want to know why youthink this is happening, cause I
don't care.
And that was a, that was aThursday.
We stayed the weekend in thathotel just trying to wrap our
heads around it.
But then Saturday went back,cause I'm preaching Sunday.
And so Sunday I stood up infront of the church and I had to
tell them hey, god is still God, because I'm the pastor.

(19:50):
I mean, god's supposed to dothings for them, and if it
doesn't work for him, how's itgoing?
So I had no idea at that timehow much it affected my church
and how much it was affectingpeople.
Like it rocked people's faithfor me like their faith about me
.
And it was.
It was nuts, and so we, we, wedid that and it was.

(20:10):
It was crazy and so, but Jesus,still, jesus will figure it out
.
So we went through and stillpastoring, still doing our thing
, still traveling, stillfiguring things out and loving
it.
Church is going great.
Everything's awesome.
You know, we're up into theright and everything and it's
it's great seeing people's liveschange, enjoying it.
And then we applied to over 50moms going through the next few

(20:33):
months.
We twice got on a, got a callto go meet a mom for like an, a
follow-up interview, and then inroute got called and said she
changed her mind, so just turnaround and go home.
And then we went to Facebook Imean after months and we
literally created our ownFacebook.
My wife created a Facebook pageabout our adoption and told the
world to share it.
And somebody in Preble Countyreached out and there was this

(20:55):
young lady who was pregnant.
She was in her early 20s, Ithink, and so we connected her
to the agency to do everything.
And then we got matched and shewanted to meet us.
So we went to lunch.
We met the birth father.
We met her.
We went to ultrasounds.
We got pictures, you know likewhere my wife and her texting

(21:15):
and like you know, this stuff isgoing forward, we're figuring
it out.
And then in late May, uh, shecalls us and says she's going to
keep them, she's changed hermind.
And uh, and that one, it wasjust it hit differently.
You know, I'd kind of beenthrough it a little bit so I
knew I remember walking in, Iwas at work when my wife called.

(21:39):
I opened the door to it wasJustin's office pastor, justin,
and he's in a meeting.
I just opened the door, I go,she's changed her mind, she's
keeping it.
I'm going home.
And I closed the door and Ijust left like that was, you
know, that was it, and andobviously he, he knew what I
meant, you know, he got it andso went through all that and so

(22:01):
it.
It was tough moving forward allsummer.
Same thing we're going throughstuff, we're we're adopting,
we're not adopting, we'rethrowing our hat in the ring.
My wife gets a phone call on aFriday Um, would you be
interested in a nine month old?
This is in August and she'slike I don't know.
You know, okay, they like mom'sin here, the mom's in here, and

(22:24):
she has a nine month old.
We know your story.
We know you've been matchedtwice.
We were going to show her, youand another couple, see if you'd
like it.
Blah, blah, blah, okay.
And so we're like okay, sweet.
So Friday we get the call.
Saturday, she likes us, wantsto meet us.
Sunday we drive four hours andwe sit down at a Starbucks at
the weirdest job interviewyou've ever been to.

(22:44):
You know, cause it's likeeveryone's awkward.
You know, the mom is there, her, her biological grandma, the
social worker, me and my wife,and I think everyone at the
table is an introvert except me.
And so I'm just talking like hi, I'd be a good dad, you know,
you should give me your kid,like I, I, you know it's.
What do you say?
And nobody knew what to say.

(23:05):
And so we're just askingquestions, we're talking and, um
, she finally go.
She looks at it and she goeswould you like to meet him?
And I said no.
I said you know, we've, we've,we've been connected before, we
got hurt before.
Can't do it, can't, can't.
You know, I can't handle that.
And she said I'm going to goget them.
I said cause if you're stillshopping, I can't handle it.

(23:25):
She goes, I'm going to go getthem.
So she go, gets them and thesocial worker is freaking out
Cause she doesn't know if thisis legal.
You know, can you get them?
Can they see him, like I don'tknow?
So she's like on her phonefreaking out.
It was really was he was.
We took him to the doctor andhe was in the fifth percentile

(23:45):
of height but the 95th in weight.
So he was, you know,technically a short, fat kid,
medically, um.
But we, uh, we went throughthis whole.
I mean we hung out with him foran hour, we leave and it's
surreal.
And we get a phone call.
It was four hour drive.
We get a phone call.
It's like, hey, she likes you,you want to take him.

(24:06):
And I knew my wife's.
My wife has had a picture foryears in her mind of her newborn
baby and this was like a 24pound kid sitting up looking at
you and it was such a different.
I mean we just had newbornclothes, we just had, you know,
like we didn't have anything fora nine month old, you know, for
diapers, for this chunk.
And so I told I say, hey, giveus till morning.

(24:27):
And he's like, seriously, andI'm like we just need to process
this out, but we brought himhome Wednesday, brought him home
Wednesday it was crazy.
And then I told the church thatSunday because the next week
was like baby dedication and solike I mean it was just, it was
really cool and we had this kidand the first night we brought

(24:47):
him home he slept 12 hourswithout making a sound and I was
like he's amazing.

Speaker 2 (24:52):
We're the best parents ever.

Speaker 6 (24:55):
It was the last time that happened, first and last,
but so, gosh, this is a longstory.
I'm so sorry, but it's okay.

Speaker 3 (25:03):
You're good man, You're.

Speaker 6 (25:08):
Through that process we get a call from somebody that
literally said I peed on astick and I'm having your baby.
And my wife and I knew, okay,you're a single gal, this was
not expected, you're justfreaking out, so we'll walk with
you through this.

(25:29):
But we know you're going tochange your mind, and that's
okay.
Walk with you through this, butwe know you're going to change
your mind, and that's okay.
And uh, and to, to their credit, she, she literally like she
had a mentality of a surrogatethe whole time.
And so, literally the day webrought Isaiah home cause we
thought this was going to fallthrough, but we kept it on the
back burner, but we still neededthe agency to be looking, so we

(25:50):
didn't connect her immediatelywith the agency because we
really believed she was going tochange her mind and the agency
was still working.
So the day we brought Isaiahhome it was a Wednesday we
dropped him off and drove to thehospital and met her and found
out she was having a boy.
So we brought Isaiah home onAugust 30th and then on January
7th we're in the hospital andour second son, ezra, is being

(26:14):
born and my wife got to be inthe room and I call him easy
because he cost half as much,because it was just some legal
fees, but the process was a lotsimpler, you know.
But it's so funny because my,my oldest son, isaiah, he, his,
his, his biologically father hasis was like half

(26:34):
African-American.
So he's got like dark curlyhair.
He gets Brown in the sun.
He's got dark eyes.
Ezra is like the poster childfor every sunscreen you've ever
seen Like he is.
I think his mom was a redhead,dad was blonde.
He's blonde hair, blue eyes, aspale as you can get, you know.
And so we have like SBF noneand SBF a hundred everywhere we

(26:54):
go.
Um, so we're, we're figuringthat out and through the process
.
I mean I had to start prepre-adoption.
I started counseling cause I'mthe guy who everyone's talking
to and I'm talking to nobody.
I had to get help.
I felt lost, I felt abandoned,and this made life different,
not perfect, not easy, but weended up fast forward.

(27:17):
We go through everything.
2019, I get a phone call.
I'm sitting at my desk inOctober 2019, and I get a call
and it's someone I know andtheir niece is pregnant, she's
16, and they are, uh, trying tohelp them because abortions on

(27:38):
the table and they're likeyou've done adoption, tell me
what it looks like, how, what doI tell them?
How do I coach them?
Blah, blah, blah.
And so I went through it.
I literally hang up the phone,I go crap.
And our secretary was rightoutside.
She goes what I go?
They're having my daughter.
And she goes what kind of phonecall did you just have?
And, uh, but it was, that wasanother.
It was, it was a no in myknower and it was just so

(28:00):
exasperating.
But that, her, her adoption,this was like another.
I feel like everything in mylife was trial by fire.
Everything was a workout forfaith.
Uh, it was contested before.
It was contested during.
It was contested for 10 monthsafter she was born, covid hit.
So she's born in Florida, aprilof 2020.
So everything shut down.

(28:21):
So we're not allowed at thehospital, we're not allowed to
go anywhere, like it was just,it was chaos, but she was born
healthy.
We brought her home.
She's amazing.
Um, but in that time, everythree years, I'm, I'm pastoring.
So at the two year mark ofpastoring, justin comes and goes
hey, all right, next year'sthree, am I looking for a new

(28:46):
guy?
Are you re-upping, you know?
And so I was like I'll let youknow.
So I go pray.
And I'm like, all right, giveme, I'll give you two more, you
know.
And so I was like I'll let youknow.
So I go pray.
And I'm like, all right, giveme, I'll give you two more, you
know.
And so every every couple ofyears, he just kind of come be
like, so what are we doing, youknow?
Cause he wanted, you know, timeto fill the slot, you know,
which makes perfect sense.
And so, but in 2016, my wifeand I at different times.

(29:08):
2016, my wife and I at atdifferent times.
She was actually in Thailandand she heard it.
I was in a, at a church servicein Detroit, and it was the first
time we'd ever heard that wewould live overseas.
And I didn't want to liveoverseas.
I wasn't really against it, butI just never.
I wanted to travel and comeback and forth.
That's what I knew, that's whatI thought, that's what I saw.

(29:29):
I hadn't seen a lot oftraveling overseas, I hadn't
seen a lot of that, and so, butit was again.
I just I knew it, I heard it,it was the moving in two years,
get ready, so.
But we sat on it, we sat on itand this was 2016, in 2019.
In August, justin did it again.
He did it like a month early,which for you goes all right.

(29:53):
So what are you doing?
And I go, I'm moving in twoyears.
I said I think I think we'regoing to go live on the mission
field, and he's like all right.
And so I was like this is mytwo year notice, like you know.
I mean, I guess this is what Ido.
You got some time, we'll figureit out.
He's like all right.
And so we we couldn't tellanybody.

(30:14):
You know like his, you know it.
It was a whole process oftransitioning, finding the right
person, and and pastor MattSaperka took over the Eaton
campus and it it's grownhundreds of people services, two

(30:35):
services a week, where I meanCOVID obviously messed things up
a bit because everyone wentcrazy for that, but it was kooky
.
But we really started chewingand then we started looking,
going okay, where are we going?
What are we doing?
Because I loved this and Iturned out to be pretty good at
this pastoring thing and I likedit and I enjoyed it and loved
it.
But I knew there was somethingelse and I knew in me I couldn't
, I couldn't, I couldn't stayhere, I just couldn't, I

(30:58):
couldn't do it, and so I had totell people that and figure that
out and walk through thatprocess.
But we, uh, we didn't know any.
But but Elizabeth had Thailandon her heart and it seemed good
to me.
You know, that's what she heard.
She, she had an encounter withGod literally on a rooftop in
Thailand years before.
And he's like you're coming,and um, and so we knew we knew

(31:21):
one organization.
So I literally called them upand said hey, can I come see
what you guys do and who you are?
You know, and we I love myignorance I had no idea who was
even in charge.
I knew one person from whoworked for them and I set it all
up and I called a buddy and Igo hey, what are you doing next
week?
And he goes oh, you know, he'sfreelance for target.
I go, you want to go toThailand.
And he's like sure, you know,like so it was great.

(31:42):
So, literally nine days from myphone call, we were boarding a
plane and he went with me and wewanted to check out this uh
organization, life impact.
And I remember the director.
We met her on the first nightand I'm not even awake.
You know cause.
We flew and run away, met heron the first night and then had

(32:03):
she ended up getting sick and Ididn't see her again till the
last day of our trip.
And so we're seeing stuff andit's crazy.
I'd been to Thailand before ondifferent trips, but I mean
we're on the border of thiscountry and they're rescuing
kids out of human traffickingand we're seeing like there's a
no man's land between Myanmarand Thailand and people live
down there and I mean they'retrafficked across this border.

(32:24):
It was one of the hottesttrafficking borders for kids
like in the world.
It was like the top five atthis spot in this little stupid
town and I mean it's some crazystuff.
We're at a.
I remember going to a garbagedump where people lived and we
had a Bible study in a hut inthe garbage dump, you know, and
getting to minister to peopleand just different stuff.
And I met a lady and there wasanimists.

(32:46):
And so they're, they'reBuddhist and they're animists,
so they believe spirits areeverywhere and they, they
worship some.
So we ended up in a villagewhere they were having bad crops
and so they were sacrificinganimals, uh to to spirits, to
try and get them to do things.
And I'm talking to people who,like, literally had things that
would shake their house, likethey had evil manifestations of

(33:06):
stuff.
Like this is very different.
And so, uh, went through theweek and I I got no idea,
because I know me, I'm stilllike the 20, I might be at the
15% at this point.
I got no idea.
I know I'm going somewhere.
So the last night I'm there Ilooked at the.
I go, listen, don't count on me.
I'd rather under promise andover deliver than vice versa.
You know, and she had hadenough people over the years,

(33:29):
cause she'd been there for years, for years doing amazing stuff.
You know, make big promises andtotally fall through.
So I wanted to be the opposite.
So I was like, don't count, I'mgoing somewhere.
I don't know if it's here, Idon't think it's, I have no idea
.
So I got, I'm still, you know,two years, it's 2019.
I don't know.
Well, then COVID happened andeverything shut down.

(33:50):
It was hard to get ahold of hershe's caring for, cause we
didn't get shut down nearly asbad as some places.
Like they had property withlike 80 kids and families and
amazing things they're doing andthey weren't allowed to leave
their property for three months.
So they had to figure outschool for these kids, they had
to figure out church, they hadto figure out food, like they
had to figure out everything forthese kids, having to live on

(34:12):
this compound and couldn't leavefor months at a time.
And so I mean they're in,they're in a level of chaos that
I couldn't even imagine and sowe couldn't even connect.
And so it's funny, because Iwanted to go, I, we came back
and it took me about a week ofpraying to go.
Yeah, that's where we're going,and I was probably 40%, but I
knew what 40% led to by now andElizabeth was like, okay, let's

(34:36):
go.
But I mean I couldn't evenremember the lady's last name.
Like I just I live in ignoranceand God bless me for it, but
like I mean it was just likethat's where we're supposed to
go, that's all I know.
So we're going to go there.
But I mean I I announced to ourstaff at the church that we

(34:56):
were moving to Thailand before Ieven got to talk to their
director to see if I could.
Um, because we were, we werejust having such a hard time.
They're in different time zone,life's great, like it was hard
but we didn't even connect.
And it was funny because whenwe first connected with her,
she's like oh my gosh, she goes.
Okay, I actually thought youwere calling to tell me you
weren't coming Cause I was sohard to get ahold of you know,

(35:17):
and we've been playing tag forlike a year and a half she goes.
So I got to talk to people LikeI've got to figure this out
with my board, like before youmove your whole family here,
cause at the time, you know, Igot a two-year-old and a
five-year-old and I'm gettingrid of my church and we're going
.
But she's like okay, let'sfigure this out.
And I'm like all right.
So November, we announced it tothe church.

(35:38):
We started a ministry calledNew Life Commission because you
know, we had to figure out whatare we going to do?
How are we going to raise funds?
How are we going to support?
What's this going to look like?
We started New Life Commissionin March of 2022, handed off the
church in April, soldeverything we owned, bought an
RV, lived in that for a month,took my kids on an out West tour

(35:59):
, hit a deer with an RV whichwas an interesting adventure had
a car breakdown in the middleof nowhere, which was also in
fun, interesting adventure.
Our van died, so the van I washoping to sell.
We had a minivan and an RV.
I was hoping to sell theminivan to make money.
I left it in a junkyard inArizona because it just died and
they told me nothing.

(36:20):
And so, and we were in themiddle of nowhere, nowhere, and
so I opened my phone, found theclosest landmark, ping, hit it
and called, and the guy whoanswered I said hey, I'm stuck
on this road.
Can you come pick my family up?
And he did, and it was so nice.
Um, I like hitchhiking.

(36:40):
I try not to do it with littlekids, but I didn't have a lot of
choice at the time.
Uh, and so we, uh, we did he.
He picked us up, he had acooler of water, I mean, he was
working at a race car track andhe came and he took us, drove us
there, dropped us off at thecamper, drove me back and I sat
and waited for the tow truck,like it was.
It was awesome.
I was like this is cool, I likerandomly calling people.

(37:02):
And so we moved and and I'm, I'min Thailand.
And life just gets a bit crazybecause this is a different
world and I know, I know we're,we're there and they working
with human trafficking and Ihave my family and we're just
trying to figure this thing outand I would say the three years

(37:24):
we've been there almost threeyears the three years in
Thailand have been easily thehardest three years of our lives
.
Now I I'll say that the hardestthree years had nothing to do
with ministry.
The organization we worked withis doing ridiculous things that
are awesome my opportunities tominister and see things and I
got more wackadoodle storiesabout Jesus doing ridiculous

(37:44):
things than I can count.
I could do another fivepodcasts on just Jesus stories.
But what was hard was family,because my, my kids started
having a really hard time, um,jumping in and about six months
in, uh, cause we're trying toget acclimated and we're it.

(38:05):
It's a different world and Ibut I mean it's a different
world nothing, there's, not asingle thing.
I kind of got addicted toNetflix, a little thing, a
little bit, because at nightthat was the only familiar thing
in my life.
I'd like watch friends episodesto feel slightly normal,

(38:26):
because everything in life wasvery different.
We're on the border, they're uh, they're having civil war right
across.
So there's refugees everywherewe can.
On the border they're uh,they're having civil war right
across.
So there's refugees everywhere.
We can hear bombs going off fromour house.
We hear bombs going off fromthe land.
I'm lying to my kids andtelling them they're thunder and
if you're watching this, pleasedon't tell my kids that wasn't
thunder, cause I don't thinkthey know still.

(38:47):
But literally like I'd besitting in a kid's tent and
things would be shaking, youknow, and my kids would come and
running in looking for thelightning, you know, and and so.
But I mean it was.
It was stressful.
We could go days and weekssometimes without talking to
people.
We, you know, that were Western,because there wasn't any
Western people there.
We, we eventually made somefriends, but my one of my sons,

(39:08):
we, he started he was going to aschool.
We tried to find him a school.
They spoke English, but it wasmostly refugee kids.
He was in a class with kidsthat were usually two years
older than him.
He was the shortest, he was theonly white kid, he was the only
Western kid.
We found out later he's gettingpicked on, um, and he just
started having massive meltdowns, massive freak outs, massive

(39:30):
things and I think I know, Ithink I know the basic
principles of parenting.
You know, and I was, I was niceand I was so grateful for my
kids.
I mean, we didn't take me ninemonths to have a baby, it took
me nine years to have a kid.
I was so grateful, so excited,but I, I just kind of we started
raising like we knew.
And my wife, thank God, throughthis whole thing she just had

(39:54):
some gut instincts about things.
Because before we would havesaid, oh, this is how we'll
parent, you know you, before youhave kids, you're the best
parent on earth, like you knoweverything.
And so we, we probably wouldhave said we're on the same page
about discipline, we're on thesame page about this and how do
you handle, and all that kind ofstuff.
But there were things where I, Itried to mimic things I saw in

(40:16):
other people's lives and and she, she was like no, and at the
time I was like you, you know,submit, woman, you know, or
whatever, like I, I thought shewas so wrong, she was so right,
cause the gift of God on theinside of her for our kids was
screaming and she didn't evenknow what it was, because God

(40:37):
put in us what those kids needed.
Now, they came from crazydifferent backgrounds.
They came from crazy you know,florida and Ohio, and I mean all
different scenarios, differentstories of how, how they even
came to be, and they were allcrazy, unique in their own way.
Kids come downloaded with liketons of apps already.
Like I was like, oh, I thoughtI had to like put everything,

(40:58):
like you're a person like fromthe get-go.
I had no idea, but she hadsomething in her that was like
no, no, no, there needs to bemore nurture than we know.
There needs to be moreconnection.
Like there's got to be morenurture than we know.
There needs to be moreconnection.
Like there's, there's gotta bethis thing.
And so we're in Thailand, aboutsix months in, and I start
getting calls every day from herabout our oldest son having

(41:20):
really hard times.
Kids have hard times, I know,but like he's breaking things,
he's yelling for hours, he'sbeing violent, she's having to
separate the other kid, likehe's having massive and it's
it's starting to amp up to wherewe're having things daily and
it doesn't make any sense and wedon't know what to do.
And we don't have a doctorthere, we don't have a

(41:41):
pediatrician.
We don't know anyone there, wedon't know anything about this.
So we're driving five hours fora doctor from where we live,
and so my wife just startspraying and researching and I
don't know what to do becauseI'm a failure, because I'm here
trying to do God's work and myfamily's falling apart and my
wife's having heart like it'sjust, it's a mess.

(42:02):
And so we, uh, my wife foundout, okay, he could have this,
and when she went through the,he could, he.
He seems to have some strongADHD tendencies, he has some ODD
, he has some, you know, wedidn't know.
And so finally we foundsomebody in a city called Chiang
Mai and we got some diagnosis.
He got some testing done, but Imean, this is seven months in

(42:24):
and we got no idea.
We finally got him in front ofsomebody and said like, hey,
what's going on?
And so they gave him a fewdiagnosis.
We had a therapist that wasworking with us and and really,
but they just kind of said, okay, we can try some a little bit
of medications, but honestly,like you're just going to have
to figure this out.

(42:45):
So, literally over this process,everything I thought I knew
about parenting, everything Ibelieved, everything I thought
was going to be normal.
Everything I thought, you know,like just how I would
discipline, how I punish, andthen how my kids would listen,
because I listened it was.
I was wrong about everythingbecause my basically my son's
brain got wired in a manner thathe is living in fight or flight

(43:09):
always.
His lower brain and his upperbrain doesn't always connect the
dots, and so your lower brainis controlling your, your, your,
your body.
And so I see, so I'm walking ona path, I see something, it's a
snake.
Instantly, before I evenregister it's a snake, my heart
starts pumping.

(43:29):
It's pushing blood to mymuscles, it's doing like, my
body starts to react and theneventually it gets to my upper
brain and goes oh no, that's astick.
Calm down, you're okay.
His doesn't always make thecorrelation, so he goes on red
alert about things that don'teven make sense and then has
really hard times.
Well then there's two other kidswho are in the midst of this,

(43:51):
because we ended up having ahomeschool, so my wife's got
three kids.
One of them's going crazy.
The other two are learning howto go crazy because that's their
model and that's what they'reseeing.
And so we, we really I mean we,we didn't know what to do.
We felt stuck, we felt lost, wefelt like failures, we had no
idea what was happening.

(44:12):
And and my wife, too ridiculous,I mean she, I'm a hundreds of
hours of finding books, findingpodcasts, and for her she would,
she would pray, but she said Idon't, I don't have time to sit
for an hour and seek God.
I can't go pray and fast in thewoods and find an answer.
I got two minutes beforesomebody's screaming I need, I

(44:33):
need, I need help now.
And so she would tell mestories about, like you know,
she prayed, she literally I needhelp, jesus.
And like that afternoon she'dsee something on Instagram and
it would, you know.
Then it would find a doctor ora mom group or something.
She'd find a podcast and she'dfind a book and she'd find that
like it was Jesus through mediain so many ways, because she was

(44:54):
, I mean, she's dead, she's likeI don't know what, everything I
supposed to do doesn't work andeverything.
And then every you know we're inthe foreign country, so we look
like crazy people anyway,because we're stared at.
Everywhere we go, people walkup and take pictures with my
kids because they're just whiteand cute, you know.
But then to have them beingcrazy and loud and demonstrative

(45:18):
in a culture that's veryreserved.
You know, you feel like you'reneon sign all the time
everywhere you go, um at one.
At one point it got so bad thatliterally he, he crawled out of
the window in the car, got ontop of the car while she's at a
stop sign and is screaming,running up and down on top of
the car and it's high enoughthat she couldn't even reach him

(45:39):
.
So I got two kids crying in thecar because they're scared.
She's outside trying toconvince the screaming kid to
get off the car while traffic isaround her.
And this is 20 plus minutes andthat's traumatic for everyone,
that's traumatic for the kids inthe car, that's traumatic for
my wife, that's traumatic for myson.
Like I mean we were justgetting beat up and so I mean it

(46:02):
, it was, it was really, it wasa mess and uh, and we didn't
know what to do.
And so we're we're trying to doplay therapy, but we got to
drive.
So I start driving five hoursmonthly for my kid to go to a
play therapist.
We start trying some differentmedications, seeing if that's
working, see if they're takingthe edges off and and so we
we've gone through that.

(46:22):
But in in the summer I juststarted having some wise people
Justin, who I love he literallycalls me and I he's not someone
I talked to a ton.
I talked to him a little bit,but he's not someone I talked to
a ton.
He's not someone I update.
I got, I got some friends Italked to.
I got some people I try andtalk to, but we had no, we went
from a community here thatspoiled my kids rotten and love

(46:46):
them.
I mean, oh my gosh, duringCOVID, covid Easter I had we
live next to in West Manchester,next to a church People came in
cars and did a car paradethrough the parking lot of the
church and threw candy to mykids as they stood in our yard

(47:08):
for Easter.
Like I lost my mind.
I cried, like like so spoiled.
And then the next year, so itgoes.
So when's our parade?
That's not normal.
You have no idea.
But it was.
That was his response to havingno community, no friends, no

(47:28):
one to talk to.
I mean, there was theorganization I worked with.
There was two Westerners, two,two, two women, the founder, and
then another gal who's workedthere for like 11 years, but I
mean their, their lives were.
I mean they're like 70 kidsthey're responsible for, and
then the ones they're reachingout to, and I mean just the
amazing things they're doing,but I mean their plates are

(47:49):
quite full, you know, butthey're also they're they're not
married, they're not moms inthat sense, you know that
different scenario, differentdynamics and and uh, and so we
just had nobody.
And so I get a call from Justinand he's like what the heck are
you doing?
And I don't even know how heknew as much as he knew, but
he's like your family isliterally drowning and fights

(48:12):
with my wife had escalated, likewe hated life.
We just we hated life.
We hated each other At points,we hated everything and we're
failing.
And I'm on the ministry and I'mon the mission field and you
know, one day I'm hating my wife, the next day I'm in a hut
praying for a Muslim.
You know, like this is my lifeand it was.
It was a mess and there was alot of grace, but, man, just the

(48:33):
level of depression, the levelof feeling lost, the level of
everything.
So we both started counseling Imean, I'm, I'm, I'm on the zoom
chat with this Nigerian womanin England for counseling, you
know and uh, cause we bothrealized there was some things.
So the thing that our kids didwas brought out all the
unhealthy things that were in usthat we didn't know because in

(48:55):
the States they were just at thebottom and we never got shook
up enough to do.
I mean miscarriages andinfertility and terrible, like
all that stuff didn't shake upthis as much as as that did.
And so we're, we're in Thailandand this is trial by fire to
another level, and um, and, andI wasn't ready, all this other

(49:19):
preparation, I wasn't ready andI think the thing that I
probably the thing I know thatwas my worst thing was I got so
busy and distracted I wasn'tdoing the things I knew, like I
had let things in my ownrelationship slip with Jesus.
I had let prayer time becauseI'm so busy with chaos.

(49:41):
I took things took a backburner that shouldn't have to
survive and I'm literally in thedevil's playground as much as
possible.
And I don't I don't have thearmor on, like I'm not as much
as I should have could have.
You know, I mean there areliterally statues and idols of
demons at places we would go, Imean like a statue of a winged
being with fangs and talons,sitting on a throne of skulls,

(50:07):
like I'm like, oh, that's thedevil, like how do you not see
that?
You know, and we're worshipingthis?
You know, like that's where Ilived and so, uh, I mean we,
just to know that everything wasan attack, was insane, like,
but not even thinking that we'rejust trying to survive.
I just need my kids to be quiet, I just need my kids to listen,
I just need us not to breakanother TV because we're angry

(50:28):
and we threw the remote at itand it, you know I'm.
I'm on TV number five right now, which has a plexiglass shield
in front of it.
Um, like it, it was chaos, andso we.
He calls me.
He's like what are you doing?
He goes, move here, cometomorrow and I will, we'll
launch a church and you pastorit, I'll buy you a house.

(50:50):
I mean, god, I love this man.
He's amazing, but like, and hewas like come tomorrow.
I know you, you can pastor,I'll give you a church tomorrow.
Just get back here, take careof your family.
You're drowning.
And so that I mean I consideredI was like okay, so we had to
have a real conversation Likeshould we leave?

(51:10):
Can we leave, do we leave?
You know what's this look like?
And for some reason that was ajarring enough phone call that
it kind of woke me up a littlebit, cause I was trying to
survive.
My wife wasn't surviving, shewas communicating to me that I'm
not going to make it here thebest she could.
And I was so lost in my ownfailure and ignorance and not
knowing what to do and thenfeeling the pressure to be

(51:32):
productive on the mission field,because I have people who are
supporting me to be here, that Ireally just felt stuck.
I mean, I just really didn'tknow what to do.
And then that phone call reallyhelped jar my brain awake to
going.
Oh, we need to go something.
And so we made a decision tomove to Chiang Mai, which was

(51:53):
the town where, like, thedoctors were, and it was about
five hours away and it was atleast a bigger town where we
could.
There were some churches therethat spoke English, there were
some schools there that spokeEnglish, there was resources
there, and so we could try.
So we, we said, all right,we're going to go.
We, we found a house, we, webargained, and we, we went from
a two year lease.
We said we're going to go.
We, we found a house, we, webargained, and we, we went from
a two-year lease.

(52:13):
We said we're going to do oneyear because it's our experiment
, cause if this doesn't help, myson, next step is the States.
You know, we're we're to figurethis out.
And so we, we moved in and endof September, so October of this
year, we moved to Chiang Maiand so, and it was, it was fast

(52:35):
and it was weird and it was, itwas frustrating and it was.
My kids were excited and madall at the same time because
they had made a couple littlefriends and, like the last three
months we were in this bordertown, so annoying.
We, we actually things startedpicking up and it started going
kind of well with things.
Like we did play dates with acouple of kids we met and, like
you know, but we, we, it wasn't,it wasn't enough, it wasn't
what we needed, it wasn't thiscommunity and support, because

(52:57):
everyone, if you're there,you're there for a reason.
You're not just there, and ifyou're there for a reason, I
mean these are people runningbig missions, organizations, big
big things that are rescuingand feeding and help, like I
mean they're doing crazy stuffand so, uh it, it, you know
everybody's busy just beyondbelief.
And so we, we, we moved and sowe've been now in Chiang Mai, uh

(53:21):
, since October.
Um, we live there.
Now my kids started us.
We found a school.
My kids really, like it's asmaller school.
Uh, they kind of areacademically a little bit behind
just because of all the giant.
They went to a school for awhile.
We did some homeschool for awhile.
We've had so many transitions,um, but it was a smaller, like
private, you know internationalschool and uh, it was.

(53:43):
It's really expensive.
I never had to pay for school.
It was crazy, um, but it iswhat it is.
I mean anything, anything inEnglish, is expensive.
Uh, it's really weird, cause Ican get like, pad Thai for a
dollar, which is really good,but like a box of Cheerios is
$10 cause, uh, it's imported.

Speaker 3 (54:01):
So everything imported is really expensive Um
so let me stop you for a second.

Speaker 6 (54:06):
Yeah, cause I've been talking for like an hour and a
half and no one has interrupted.

Speaker 3 (54:10):
It's awesome.
You're good man.
Did you expect anythingdifferent?

Speaker 6 (54:16):
Yes.

Speaker 3 (54:17):
What'd you expect?
I mean, you're going into thedevil's playground.

Speaker 6 (54:20):
I expected I was a guy who babysat once, so I
thought I knew how to be aparent Because I expected I'd
done all these mission trips.
I knew what it looked like andI didn't.
And then I didn't expect allthe things that came up with my
son.
I thought he's a kid, he'llfigure it out.

(54:43):
You know, we can play in thejungle.
I mean, how great is this goingto be?
I mean, we're having anadventure.
Won't you think this is anadventure?
No, he didn't think it was anadventure.
He thought I left all myfriends, you sold all my toys, I
lost all my family and nobodyhere speaks English.
Like every week, isaiah or Ezraasked when are we moving back?

(55:06):
Can we go home now?
We'd have to go renew our visas.
Please don't renew our visas.
Let them kick us out.
I mean, every week somebody'stalking to me about leaving and
hating it and wanting to go andThailand's horrible and like I
mean they're, they're harping onit, and so I I guess I expected
a little bit of that, but Ididn't expect I didn't.
I didn't see this.

(55:26):
I was totally ignorant andthat's probably my fault, you
know, but I was.
I was genuinely ignorantbecause ministry was easy.
Ministry is.
I mean there's ministryopportunities like gangbusters
and it's amazing and it's hardwork and but I mean that is so
comfortable for me and I'm goodat it, you know, and it's Jesus

(55:49):
and he was doing amazing thingsand we had great opportunities.
The organization we were, Imean it was just awesome.
But he was opening differentdoors as we moved to Chiang Mai
for kind of things for us to doon our own and it was, it was
great.
But the family stuff was hardand I didn't know.
And so my, my board.
I have a board for the ministry, you know, and they set things
like salary and they take careof that kind of stuff and help

(56:11):
me do it.
You're not going to make it.
So move to Chiang Mai and takesix months and do as little as
possible ministry-wise to keepyour visa and figure out your
family, and they're like you aregoing to hate that because

(56:32):
you'd rather be productive.
You're going to hate thatbecause you're going to feel
like a loser but you won't makeit there two more years if you
don't get this right.
I'd rather see you there for 10years, 20 years, than see you
burn out and lose your family intwo and so, uh, and it was
pretty unanimous against me inthat um and and because they're,

(56:55):
they're great men who love meand my family, and so they have
great wisdom.
And so we did, we listened, we,we transitioned with the
organization we were workingwith and and kind of handed over
things that I was doing so Iwasn't having to commute every
week and be gone for days.
You know, cause my kid, everytime I was gone they're freaking
out.
Uh, cause they're.
They live in my oldest lives inlike perpetual fear of

(57:18):
something it doesn't even haveto be rational, but like it's,
it's coming out and it's comingout loud, it's coming out big.
But, uh, we, we started him insome some therapies play therapy
and occupational therapy.
We, we had some neighborhoodfriends, we may, you know, we
had some kids.
So we started school, reallyhelped.
And, and what was weird wascause people were like, hey, is

(57:38):
it going great?
Now, have you ever, like,played it?
You know, you go playbasketball with some people and
you're going, you're going,you're going, you're going,
you're going, you're workinghard, it's great.
And then, like, you sit downand like, 30 minutes later
you're like, oh, my God, I'mreally tired and I hurt myself
and I like it's not until yourest that you start feeling the
pain, like that was us.
So last six months it's almostlike we didn't know how hurt we

(58:02):
were where we lived.
Like probably top two mistakesof my life in ministry and
marriage was I should have movedmy family a year earlier Cause
I, I, I damaged my wife.
She was in hell and didn't knowwhat to do.
And I wasn't there and I wasn'thelping and I was stupid, and so

(58:25):
that was I mean.
So we've spent the last sixmonths just like finding wounds,
just checking ourselves, youknow, doing things.
And so we're recognizing, okay,jesus is Jesus, he can do
things and people matter.
And we still do amazing, westill get to do incredible

(58:46):
things.
And you know, I, I, I couldtalk forever about stuff we do.
And, uh, I have a July.
I was, I was going to inviteyou where I have.
I have a fundraiser thing inJuly that I'll talk about
ministry stuff.
But here it's like I'm a dadbefore I'm a minister, I'm a
husband before I'm a dad, and soI've had to reshift every

(59:07):
priority to go how do I help mywife, how do I help my kids, how
do I love them, what's best forthem?
And so we've weighed and talkedand we've looked at what it
would look like coming back tothe States and what's best for
them.
And so we've weighed and talkedand we've looked at what it
would look like coming back tothe States and everything in me
cringes because that's a failureIn my mind.
That's a failure In my mind.
That's wrong and in my mind I'dhate that, because I'm still

(59:29):
scared of failing, but I realizeI'm not.
I was with a counselor.
I was 41 and I'm with acounselor and we're talking and
he said this statement.
It was the first time he goeswow, that school system really
failed you.
And I just started to crybecause I had never once had the
thought that it wasn't my faultand all those years I assumed

(59:52):
it was me.
I assumed I'm the prop, like Ijust were.
Men, we take responsibility, wetake blame, and the idea that
it wasn't my fault, that Icouldn't read and that the
dominoes that that led to in mylife and my self-image and my
whole identity was insane and itreally so.

(01:00:13):
I mean I'm still gosh, I'm twosteps into the mile journey, but
like, okay, I'm not a failure,it's not my fault, I love my
kids and I'm loving my kidswhere they're at, not
apologizing for where they're at.
And it's hard sometimes becauseI mean we're here in the States
now and this is harder thanthere, because if I'm at Walmart

(01:00:36):
and my son starts screaming,every white person's looking at
me and in their mind, if theywould, just why can't you just
be a better parent?
Why can't you just be a youknow why can't you just and I'm
like you have no idea who thiskid, because I did that.
You just need more discipline.
You just need to take bettercare.
You just need to blah, blah,blah.
Take better care.

(01:00:59):
You just need to blah, blah,blah and and.
But I'm like.
So I mean the, the weight offeeling judged everywhere we go,
the weight of feeling like aterrible parent because my kids
don't behave like somebodyelse's kids, or because I'm I'm
negotiating with my son, becauseI know what it looks like if I,
I mean we.
We drove back from GatlinburgPigeon Forge two days ago and it

(01:01:20):
took us nine hours and it's afive-and-a-half-hour trip.
And one of the reasons I had topull over because one of my
kids was having like a fullmeltdown for 45 minutes, trying
to break everything he could gethis hands on in the car and we
had to go off the highway.
Take him out of the car Now.
He was mad about a download andit was as simple.
Off the highway.
Take him out of the car, now hedidn't.

(01:01:40):
He was mad about a download andit was as simple as a download.
Like he wanted to download anew game.
We said no and it spiraled intochaos of screaming and fighting
and breaking things, trying tobreak things in the car and like
I mean full on, you know.

(01:02:03):
And if you never, it's like,well, you just need to be more
disciplined.
This kid lives in fear hiswhole life and at one point I
was the thing he was most afraidof.
Like I found him in the fetalposition one time under his
bathroom sink, hiding from me,crying because he was scared I'd
spank him.
Now I I wasn't like an angry,like I had my stuff, like I
never spanking, like I had likerules for discipline and I was
pretty good at it.
But I'm like, like you are,this is wrong.
Like I I promised him that day.
You know, watching my son drawpictures of a big scary monster

(01:02:23):
and knowing finding out that'sme, I'm the big scary monster.
I'm not a bad guy, like I'm notan abusive, but I'm scary.
And so, uh, I mean we just Ihad to change so much because my
son has to feel safe longbefore he has to learn to be
obedient.
He has to know he's lovedbefore he's ever going to learn
to listen.

(01:02:45):
And we're starting that journey,almost new every day, and it's
crazy and we do it.
You know, traveling and goingdifferent places pretty much in
the least conducive environmentspossible.
So I don't know if that makesme crazy or wackadoodle, but
like that's our journey andthankfully we have some, some
wonderful people that arehelping us.
My wife has spent so much timefinding groups of people that

(01:03:07):
get it.
She's on like Facebook groupsand and she's in some mom groups
on different things, just withkids with similar needs and
similar.
Just because you can talk andit's like anything.
If you haven't experienced it,you know it's hard for you to
get it, you know.
But I mean, after we had amiscarriage and people knew, and
after adoption fails and peopleknew, like after we couldn't

(01:03:28):
get dealt with infertility Imean the people that came out of
the woodwork who would talk tomy wife you know I dealt with
that and then she would get totalk to them and connect with
them and help them.
And we've helped people withadoptions and like it's been
cool.
So out of our struggle has comeso many great things.
And so even with this I meanwith my wife is now she's
talking to people aboutmedications and therapies and my

(01:03:51):
kids are acting like this howdo you do?
And you know she's, she'snavigating that while she's
still meeting with people andthey're trying to pour into her
because their kids are grown andthey've gone through this, and
so it's the thing we suck at iswe don't talk like guys don't
talk nearly as much.

Speaker 3 (01:04:06):
You're right, and that's that's a big reason why
we do this yeah, so that youknow men out there can hear
these conversations ofeverything you've just said.
You know the challenges that weall face raising a family, the
challenges with our work, thechallenges with our faith.
You know we're constantlytested and pushed and pulled and
you don't know how to handlethat right.

(01:04:27):
And so what better way to do itthan to hear your story, to
hear ben's story, my story, totalk about all these things,
because you never know thechallenge of someone's face and
just like you talk about youknow you your son acts up in the
grocery store and and you knoweverybody's initial reaction,
but they don't know the story.

Speaker 6 (01:04:47):
They don't and I don't.
I don't blame them, I mean youknow everybody's, everybody's,
everybody, and it's fine, butit's it's having the freedom
sometimes to find relationshipsto where you can be open, you
can be vulnerable, you can be.
You know, I sat on last night Isat on a good friend's porch
and we just he's how you doing,you know, and I'm like, well, my
life is chaos.

(01:05:07):
You know, it's a nice dumpsterfire going down the river.
You know like, and he just isencouraging me about my wife and
relationship, like he's justpushing on me and talking to me
and loving me and encourage,like we need that and we don't
like to cause.
We're supposed to be bulletproof, but I just came to the end of
me, fully in everything, and uh,and I couldn't do it.

(01:05:29):
I mean, I got to the place.
I I so many times in life I'vegotten to the place, you know,
in pregnancy I got to the placewhere I literally I gave all the
money I had to adopt a kid.
I've been trying to getpregnant for seven and a half
years.
I've been to doc like Iliterally couldn't do anything
else outside of going andstealing a kid to have.

(01:05:50):
You know, I was at the end ofmy rope and that's a horribly
scary place to get to in inthings where you're supposed to
be able to.
You know I'm a man, I should beable to make a baby and you
know I'm a I'm a dad, I shouldbe able to figure this out.
Well, I am figuring it out.
It just looks different thananything I wanted and I have to

(01:06:12):
figure it out one day at a time,and I don't get to know what
tomorrow holds and it sucks, butit's amazing because the, the
grace and the I mean we had areally rough morning yesterday
and then literally met somepeople at the Eaton pool and and
it was I mean I I had thismoment of just relax and it was

(01:06:33):
fun.
My kids are playing like it'slike a different world and
learning how to make the mostout of those moments so that I
could survive the next moment isis just so important.
And having conversations like Idid later that night you know
we were coming home from thepool, there was a prayer thing
and you know I was going to haveto leave in like 10 minutes

(01:06:53):
after getting home from the pool, and I know I'm going to stick
her with bedtime and I'm goingto stick her with feet Like I'm
going to dump it and she justgoes.
She goes going.
There is more important thananything else we're going to do
tonight.
Just go, like you need it, Ineed, like I'll figure it out,
you know, and she obviously didand life happened and it's fine.

(01:07:14):
But like it's fine and um, butlike okay, remembering where I
need what source and priority,like basics are, are easy to get
away from but they're crucialto live by.

Speaker 3 (01:07:28):
Yeah, you, uh, man, pretty powerful story, you know,
and we didn't even really getinto all the things you're doing
.
You know specifically, kind oflike what we talked about
yesterday with with the new lifecommission, and that's okay,
because I think you know God hadput it on your heart to tell
you know what your family haswent through, what you and your

(01:07:48):
wife have went through for areason today, because the people
that may think that they knowyou and may think that they know
your, your wife and your kidsand and those smiles and that
jovial spirit, you know, um knowthat now they're going to know
life's just as real for you guysas it is for them.

(01:08:09):
And sorry, honey, you knoweverybody faces challenges and
adversity, and that that'sthat's the true, real world.

Speaker 6 (01:08:17):
It, it.
Yes, we, we live too muchFacebooked.
We live too, much in everyoneelse's highlight reel.
And my wife's amazing becauseshe'll post.
She won't post meltdowns, butshe'll post challenges.
She'll post conversations,she'll post things that cause
she really doesn't want to paintthe picture that life is, cause
you know, on the other side weliterally have social media Like
my family keeps up with us,like we're posting, she puts

(01:08:38):
stuff all the time, but sheshe'll put things about ADHD.
She'll put things about childdevelopment, brain development.
Like she'll post things aboutthings cause she's trying to
give, as best she can, a realpicture for as much as people
can handle, Cause real makespeople uncomfortable too.

Speaker 3 (01:08:52):
Well and somebody may see that out there that that is
an expert in a certain fieldthat may say, hey, I got
something that can help helpthis kid, it's something that
can help this family, and sothat that's important.
How can people support yourmission?

Speaker 6 (01:09:07):
Um, new life commissioncom is probably the
easiest way where.
On Facebook, new lifecommission, on Instagram, new
life commission, if you're inthe um Dayton area, july 10th
we're having a fundraiser atGatherings on the Green in
Lewisburg, 630 to 8, I think, or6 to 7, 6 to 730.
And Ryan and Rose is going tobe there and they'll perform and

(01:09:30):
there'll be dessert, coffee,silent auction.
You know raffle stuff.
I brought a bunch of coolthings from Thailand we're going
to raffle off, so you just buya raffle ticket.
But I'm going to dopresentation, share more about
ministry stuff and stuff we gotcoming on.
But go to the website, see whatwe're doing and if you, uh, if
you want to support us, you know, I mean, if that's on your
heart or support somebody, dosomething.

Speaker 3 (01:09:50):
Yeah, you know you're doing amazing work.
I mean you.
This whole podcast is aboutgoing through the fire.
I think, your whole life you'vewent into the fire, and it's
amazing because you know you.
You talk about what you see inyour mind as a failure.
But where do we learn the mostin life?
Oh yeah, it's through thosefailures.

Speaker 6 (01:10:10):
I'm a genius.

Speaker 3 (01:10:14):
Ben, you got anything else to close this out?

Speaker 4 (01:10:16):
No, I just the big thing, the vulnerability part
that you talk about and how youtalk about your struggles and
everything like just every timesomebody says something and they
open up and they're vulnerable.
I feel like everybody thatlistens gets a little bit more
vulnerable.
You know, and everybody, one ofthe biggest things with the
pastor at our church a while agohe had like a stress was

(01:10:39):
weighing heavy on him and theymade him take like a year
sabbatical and get therapy andeverything.
Seeing that happen, everybodythinks pastors and everybody has
it so easy, right.
Well, you just come Sunday andall no, like you're getting
everybody's dumping, like thehard times, Like, hey, you need
to pray for them.
You need to pray for them.
You need to go to the hospital.
This person's dying, you needto comfort their family.
You need to do this.

(01:10:59):
Then you add on a whole othermission field.
You know now you're going topeople that don't speak your
language.
You're doing and I think that alot of times people don't, I
don more.
I just can't thank you enoughfor being vulnerable, though I

(01:11:19):
mean, your story is absolutelyamazing.

Speaker 3 (01:11:22):
It is.
Yeah, you're amazing, elizabeth, I know you're listening.
You're amazing.

Speaker 6 (01:11:28):
She wins.
Yes, yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:11:29):
It's.
It's an amazing story and I youknow, we obviously know there's
more to come and more to share,and so we wish you the best
while you're here in the States,and certainly the travel back
to Thailand and kind of the new,the new life and the new city,
that that's there and what's tocome, and we'll certainly keep
you all in our prayers.
Appreciate it.

Speaker 6 (01:11:50):
Thanks for having me.

Speaker 3 (01:11:51):
Yeah, man, thanks for thanks for coming on here and
telling your story and thanksfor yesterday that was.
That was good too.
So, hey, everybody, you got toshare this.
There's no doubt somebody outthere can be impacted by Jeff's
story, his family story, and sobe sure to share it like and do
all those things and go out andbe tempered.

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