BeTempered Episode 79 - Aligning Business for Longevity with Erin Flynn, CEO of Cladwell

A great story does not skip the hard parts, and Erin Flynn refuses to. On BeTempered, hosts Dan Schmidt and Ben Spahr sit down with Erin to trace the real path from Indiana gym floors to Silicon Valley boardrooms. She chased a dream, ran into walls, and still chose to build a company and a life that actually fit. Her early chapters read like a crash course in grit. She graduated into the 2009 recession, rode a bus six hours a day to an unpaid internship, and turned a blog into a bridge between brands and creators. Then came her first startup, the shock of blunt sexism in investor rooms, and a humbling move back into her childhood bedroom when both money and luck ran out.

What changed everything was not louder hustle. It was alignment. Erin joined Cladwell, helped it grow, and then faced the VC treadmill that demanded free growth and breakneck scale. When the numbers no longer served customers or the mission, she did something few founders even consider. She bought back the business, raised values aligned capital, and rebuilt the app around a simple promise. Cladwell now helps people get dressed with what they already own, pairing weather smart suggestions with a capsule wardrobe philosophy that encourages doing more with less. Motherhood added urgency and perspective, faith shifted from a slogan into a steady rhythm, and her love for design grew into real estate renovations, boutique lofts, and kitchen design studios that put craft and service at the center.

The conversation also dives into her bestselling book, The Road Less Worn, where she clears out the closet of her life and keeps only what still fits. Identity, failure, resilience, and the courage to swim sideways out of the rip current. For anyone who has felt pressured into a version of success that did not feel like their own, Erin’s approach is a lifeline. Choose profits over posturing, customers over vanity metrics, and values over speed. She shares practical insight on fundraising, bias, creative focus, and building businesses that breathe, along with a hopeful reminder that company failure is not personal failure.

Connect with the hosts at www.betempered.com and www.patreon.com/betempered. Explore Erin’s work at https://cladwell.com/ and her design and development projects at https://eastmain.com/. If this conversation encouraged you, follow the show, share it with someone who is building their own path, and leave a quick review so more people can find these stories.

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Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_05 (00:00):
Hi, my name is Allie Schmidt.
This is my goddamn hand Catrin'sGlass.

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Patron's Glass, a clear choice.

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(00:50):
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(01:33):
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(01:54):
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SPEAKER_03 (02:09):
Welcome to the Be Tempered Podcast, where we
explore the art of findingbalance in a chaotic world.

SPEAKER_01 (02:14):
Join us as we delve into insightful conversations,
practical tips, and inspiringstories to help you navigate
life's ups and downs with graceand resilience.

SPEAKER_03 (02:22):
We're your host, Dan Schmidt, and Ben Sparr.
Let's embark on a journey tolive our best lives.

SPEAKER_01 (02:29):
This is Be Tempered.

SPEAKER_03 (02:30):
What's up, everybody?
Welcome to the Bee TemperedPodcast, episode number 79.
79.
Today's guest on Be Tempered isa force of nature, a competitor,
a creator, and a woman who'slived every chapter of her story
with grit and purpose.
Aaron Flynn is a former collegeathlete, turned award-winning

(02:52):
entrepreneur, CEO, and author.
She's the founder of Cladwell, acompany she's built from the
ground up, and then had thecourage to buy back when the
story didn't go as planned.
Her journey is one of risk,failure, faith, and relentless
resilience.
Aaron wrote a book, The RoadLess Worn, which became an

(03:14):
Amazon number one bestseller.
And for a good reason.
It's an honest look at what itmeans to build something
meaningful in a world obsessedwith image and speed.
She talks about taking the longway, the hard way, the road that
builds character, not justsuccess.
She's lived the highs and lowsof a startup life, navigating

(03:35):
the pressure of leadership, andcome out on the other side with
a deeper purpose.
Not just to build companies, butto build people.
Aaron Flynn is a competitor bynature, an entrepreneur by
calling, and a storyteller byheart.
This conversation is aboutresilience, redemption, and the
courage it takes to keep walkingyour road.

(03:56):
Especially when it's the oneless worn.
Aaron Flynn, welcome to the BeTempered Podcast.

SPEAKER_00 (04:03):
Thank you.
Thank you so much for having me.

SPEAKER_03 (04:05):
Yeah, you made the trek up here this morning a
beautiful day.

SPEAKER_00 (04:08):
Yes, it was.
This fall foliage is out.

SPEAKER_03 (04:12):
It is.
I'm afraid we might only haveit's supposed to rain Friday.

SPEAKER_01 (04:16):
And then maybe a little snow.

SPEAKER_03 (04:18):
Then maybe a little snow.
We're going like today's high, Ithink it's like 67.

SPEAKER_00 (04:22):
Don't speak of snow.
Not yet.
Not yet.

SPEAKER_03 (04:25):
Nauseous.
Yeah, Monday doesn't look good.
No.
Looks cold.

SPEAKER_01 (04:29):
But Enjoy today.

SPEAKER_03 (04:31):
Yeah, enjoy today.
And um, but no, thank you formaking the trek.
We've got a mutual friend, BrianBallinger, and uh, he kind of
made the connection with both ofus and said, Hey, you need to
talk to Aaron.
She needs to share her story.
So you can thank him.

SPEAKER_00 (04:46):
Great.
I will have a word with himlater.
I think I'm getting lunch withhim.

SPEAKER_03 (04:50):
So that's what I heard.
That's what I heard.
So, how we like to start is fromthe beginning.
So, if you would talk about whatlife was like for you growing
up.

SPEAKER_00 (04:59):
Yeah, well, first I will say thank you for having
me.
I really appreciate it.
And I'm gonna try to do my bestto keep my nerves in check
because I really don't liketalking about myself.
I tend to regret when I say yesto things like this.
So I'm gonna do my best here.
Um, but yeah, childhood.
So I grew up um in a small town,about small Indiana town, about

(05:23):
an hour from here.
There was no stoplight in town.
I was surrounded by cornfields.
And like any good Hoosier does,I quickly became obsessed with
basketball from an early age.
But it wasn't just basketball,it was a huge part of the

(05:44):
culture in both my family lifeand then also in the entire town
that I grew up in.
So my mom was a coach.
So I kind of grew up a gym rat,which kind of just run around
with her from practice topractice.
And then my papa was a coach aswell.

(06:05):
He, I think coached, he coachedthe girls' team and then also
coached the boys' team and won acouple of county attorneys, won
a couple of sectional titles.
So, and this is all before, youknow, class basketball.
So he was kind of a known entityin town.
Um, the high school that I wentto did not have a football team.

(06:26):
So everything was orientedaround basketball.
So our, you know, Friday nightswere spent at the gym and also
homecoming, you know, that wasaround basketball season, not
football season.
Um, to give you even morecontext to how I grew up, uh, if
you go 60 miles west of where Ium of my town, that's where John

(06:51):
Wooden grew up.
So if you're unfamiliar, ifanyone's unfamiliar with his
story, you know, he's an Indianakid, ended up going to play, I
think, Division I collegebasketball.
I think he went to Purdue.

SPEAKER_04 (07:02):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (07:02):
Okay.
And uh then went on to become,you know, one of the most
decorated, uh, most winning-nesscoaches in NCAA college history.
Uh, he took the UCLA Bruins to,I think it was 10 national
titles, and seven of those wereconsecutive.
He coached Bill Walton, KarimaJoule Dabar.

(07:25):
And but I would say the thingthat he was known most for was
his Midwestern value set andreally teaching like that
Indiana basketball fundamentals.
So that's 60 miles west.
So then if you go 60 miles eastof my hometown, sits Mylan,
Indiana.
So if you're unfamiliar withthat story, the classic David

(07:48):
and Goliath tale of you know,the 1954 boys' basketball team
goes up against a much largerschool, much larger team, and
ultimately upsets them and winsthe state title.
Um, the real coach of that teamwas an alumni at my high school.

(08:12):
And that ultimately inspired themovie Hoosiers.

SPEAKER_04 (08:18):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (08:18):
Um also, I think my elementary principal had like a
guest role as the referee inHoosiers.
So, I mean, I can remember uhany rainy day or anytime we had
a sub, our teacher would roll inthe cart with the TV that sat on
top and play Hoosiers, whichtells you two things.

(08:42):
I grew up in the Mecca ofIndiana basketball, and that
Indiana Hoosier hysteriapropaganda was alive and well in
the 90s.
Um, but I say all of this, Itell you all of this because it
was such a big part of theculture that I grew up in.

(09:04):
And uh, you know, sports has somany good things.
It taught me grit anddetermination and certainly how
to get back up when things don'tgo your way.
Uh, but there is a very fineline between hard work, working
hard because um, you know, youthink you're uh want to become

(09:29):
the best version of yourself,which is what you know John
Wooden spoke of a lot.
And then there's working hardbecause you think you can
control the outcome.
And there's this uh story, and Itell it in the book, which is
that um I don't even know whereit comes from exactly, but
there's two fish and they'reswimming along in the ocean, and

(09:51):
an older fish uh swims by and helooks at the two young fish and
he says, uh, how's the water,boys?
And he swims on, and the twofish look at each other, and one
looks to the other and says,What the hell is water?
And I think that perfectly sumsup how I grew up.

(10:12):
Like basketball wasn't just inthe water, it was the water.
And I, you know, I was wanted tobe a good kid.
So I went to school, uh, gotgood grades, got on the honor
roll, um, you know, joined theclubs, joined all the sports,
and then wanted to earn uh ascholarship to go play in

(10:35):
college.
And ultimately that hard workum, you know, did that for me.
I ended up earning a full rightsscholarship to go play Division
II college basketball down inMemphis, Tennessee.
And so from my perspective, likethat was my default that, you
know, work hard that gets youresults.
Um, and it wasn't until I got tolike senior year in college and

(10:59):
I was completely and utterlyburnt out.
I, you know, my body was prettymuch breaking down.
And I just thought if I can makeit to the finish line, I would
have done it.
I've achieved my goal.
And I did.
So I just kind of, you know,grin and beared it, bear through
it.

(11:19):
And once I got through senioryear and started kind of my
career shortly after that, thatwas really when it all kind of
just started to fall apart.
Because that same default modethat I had didn't work anymore.

SPEAKER_03 (11:39):
Was it because basketball was over?
It was such a huge part of yourlife that you didn't know how to
um, you know, what was next foryou, that challenge.

SPEAKER_00 (11:49):
So I graduated, it was uh 2009.
I remember, I think it was Idon't know, a couple months
probably before graduation,sitting in a stats class, which
not a big fan of.
Um, but my teacher, and actuallyit may have been stats slash
finance, and I can't exactlyremember, but he had previously

(12:10):
worked, I think, at LehmanBrothers, and he had CNBC on,
and you know, just watchingbasically the stock market crash
and these banks that had beenaround forever fall apart.
And he turned to the class andsaid, I hope you guys are going
to go on and get your master'sbecause none of you are gonna
find a job in this market.

(12:30):
And I, you know, 21, 22, can'tremember exactly, but somewhere
around there, and thinking like,I don't really know what he's
talking about.
I don't watch the NBC, I don'tknow.
Um, but I quickly found outbecause I, after college, um, my
husband actually got a job thattook us to Northeastern
Pennsylvania, thrivingmetropolis of Scranton.

(12:53):
Um, and I could not find a job.
So I had sent out, I think, 300uh resume, you know,
applications and was gettingrejected because people not only
at that time, they weren'thiring new marketing grads who
had no previous experience.
They were literally getting ridof entire marketing departments.

(13:14):
And so I ended up taking a freeuh internship at Weight Watchers
headquarters in New York Citybecause we were about two hours
from New York City.
Um and I took a bus uh threehours in and three hours out to
not get paid a dime just to tryto build up my resume because I

(13:36):
couldn't find anything.
Um and my husband just I wasreally down one day, and he just
looked at me and was like, haveyou thought of have you thought
of writing?
Um and at this time, again, atthis point it was 2009, and the
uh the internet was around, butit was new.
We went, it's not like it wastoday.

(13:57):
There was no social media.
So uh blogs had really juststarted, and there was, I think,
blogger and maybe Tumblr hadjust started, and then
WordPress.
And so he set me up a makeshiftWordPress and was like, just
write for 90 days.
So I started writing, andbasically my thought was like,

(14:17):
if I can't find a job, I'm gonnahave to figure this out on my
own.
And again, that kind of samementality of like, well, no
one's gonna give it to me.
I'm just gonna have to work hardand try to do it.
Um and that opened up so manydoors.
So I started blogging every day.
I ended up uh getting to go toNew York Fashion Week.

(14:38):
Brands started sending meclothes and you know, different
products.
And then um I even had a smallstint on a reality TV show for a
hot minute.

SPEAKER_03 (14:50):
Um what what can you say what it was?

SPEAKER_00 (14:52):
Yeah, it was all on the line with Joe Z.
So Joe Z was a creative directorof Elle magazine, and he um it
was almost like an American idolfor designers, like they would
come in, and I was one of thejudges that they came in.
Um the funny part about justreal this is a sidetrack, is
that before um that, like beforewe are actually in the room

(15:16):
where they were filming, theproducer came into us and she
was like, You have to love it orhate it.
Nothing in between makes forgood TV.
And I think I was like, that isall right, now I understand how
TV works.
Um, but no, so I got to do, likeI said, Fashion Week, got to do
this uh TV show, and then reallyjust started opening up this

(15:38):
opportunity between brands andbloggers.
And that was the first time Irealized, oh, the these brands,
they don't know how to work withme.
And PR agencies, they arereaching out and they're
basically treating me like I'm ajournalist who's gonna, you
know, write an article where I'mjust a person in my house in
Pennsylvania who likes to talkabout fashion occasionally.

(16:02):
So that got that that was whereI, you know, saw the first
opportunity of ah, there'ssomething here and there's this
gap.
Um, and Colin, my husband and I,we we had been talking about
what it would be like to,because he was at a corporate
job and we were, you know, freshout of school and just trying to
figure out like what would it belike to have our own our own

(16:24):
business.
And so um ultimately he ends upquitting his job, and we created
our first startup company fromthere around all around
connecting influencers withbloggers, and this is before
people called them influencers.
So yeah, and that kind of led usinto you know the whole startup
world.

SPEAKER_03 (16:45):
Okay, now you you've glossed over a couple of things.
Your husband being a little bitof a lot of people.
Your husband being one of them.

SPEAKER_04 (16:52):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (16:53):
So talk about how you met him and and how that
relationship developed, becauseit sounds like um he's a
go-getter.
Yeah.
Right.
And he he encouraged you tostart writing.
And uh so so talk about thatrelationship, how it started,
and then how it blossomed.

unknown (17:10):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (17:10):
Remember that part where I said I don't normally
talk about my first one?
This is gonna be new for me.
Um yeah, so I he's fromCincinnati.
I'm from a small town inIndiana.
We both went seven and a halfhours to Memphis, Tennessee to
play basketball.
So he was on the boys' team, Iwas on the girls' team.
I think we met the first daythere.

(17:32):
I think he actually famouslyasked me, uh, how much does a
polar wear polar bear weigh?
And I said, and then I was like,I don't know.
What are you what are youtalking about?
And he said, enough to break theice.
Hi, I'm Colin.
So that is actually how we met.

SPEAKER_01 (17:46):
Nailed it.
Right.

SPEAKER_04 (17:47):
It's a good one.

SPEAKER_00 (17:49):
Um so no, we uh we uh like I said, met the first
day, basically started uhdating, and then got he proposed
to me senior year in college,and then we got married right
out of school, which seems crazynow where people are getting
married much later.
We were married at 22, engagedat 21, and off to the races.
Um and I think he's instilled,he is the opposite of me in so

(18:15):
many ways, and and yet ourvalues and I feel like
everything we are trying tobuild a life around is aligned,
but opposite in the sense that Iam anxious and nervous and I
would say have more high energy,and he is steady and calm and
you know balances me out in thatway.

(18:37):
But one of the things I told himwhen we first started dating was
I do not want to be in businessbecause I had seen um what my
dad had gone through and justhow hard and how up and down
that can be, both for a family,but then also just seeing the

(18:59):
toll it takes on him.
And so that was my onerequirement.
Like, if you're gonna date me, Ido not want to be in business.
Um and here we are.

SPEAKER_04 (19:11):
See how that turned out.

SPEAKER_00 (19:14):
Yeah.
Um, but it was, I I couldn't, Ithink I couldn't stop myself
from seeing uh differentproblems and seeing uh ways to
like it sounds cheesy, cheesy,but really to make the world
better.
Um and he was the same way, andI think he had taken the
corporate job out of schoolbecause his kind of upbringing

(19:37):
was more around, you know, theseare the things you do.
Um, and that's you go tocollege, he had an engineering
degree, put that to use.
Like, don't waste that.
So he got an engineering um jobthrough Proctor and Gamble, it's
a huge company, and it was a bigdeal.
And so he his family thought hewas crazy when he, you know,

(19:58):
left his job to also do thisstartup.
So I think we were uh, you know,in it together.

SPEAKER_03 (20:05):
So when you when you started all that, how how long
did you continue to go thatthree hours back and forth into
New York City?

SPEAKER_00 (20:12):
So that was I want to say it was four months or so
of going back and forth.
Um and again, almost that samementality that I had when it
came to basketball.
I'm like, if I can get throughthis, I can I can find a job.
Um and I just realized I coulddo that.

(20:33):
Like there was there was a pathin which I could continue go,
you know.
I now was building my resume,start applying again and go find
a job, work my way up through,you know, entry-level marketing.
That was my background, it was amarketing degree.
So um start entry level and thenkind of go up and up from there.

(20:54):
And I had read a book on the bustrip, and I can't um, I think
it's Sir Kin Robinson.
I think he's since passed away,but he wrote a book, I believe
it's called The Element, and hejust wrote story after story
about how all the people that wethink of who are, you know,

(21:15):
successful, they did not havetraditional paths.
In fact, it was mostly failuresthat led them to where they are.
And that was kind of, I wouldsay, my aha moment as I'm on a
bus traveling in to try to getthis, you know, um experience.
And so when the opportunitypresented itself, that hey, I

(21:38):
think I think we could createsomething from this.
That was right when the startupscene in Cincinnati kind of
started to come alive.
Um, and it was more like, okay,with the internet, you can now
start building a company outsideof Silicon Valley.
Um and we had moved back toCincinnati at that point from um

(22:00):
for his job at PNG.
But then he um ended up, theywere offering buyouts mostly for
trying to get people to retire.
And he took a buyout.
And we used that capital andalso everything that we had

(22:21):
saved up and put it into ourfirst startup company, and that
kind of led us into that wholethat whole world.

SPEAKER_03 (22:31):
Were you ever afraid?

SPEAKER_00 (22:35):
All the time.
I think I think that's thebiggest misconception.
If I were to say one thingabout, you know, advising people
who want to get intoentrepreneurship or start a
business, is I don't think I'veever not been afraid.
It is, you think you said itearlier, being comfortable with
uh being uncomfortable.

(22:55):
Uncomfortable, yeah.
And I think that's pretty muchbeen my entire thing.
It's never, I mean, like I said,back in college, I was like, I
don't want to be in business.
That's it's never been thatthing, but there's always uh I
think it's when it when the painof staying on the path and doing
that is um bigger than doing thescary thing, that's when you

(23:20):
have to go do the scary thing.
And so for me, that's just kindof always been been the case.
Um, yeah, so it was we're we'regonna do this, we're gonna put
everything in it.
And if it doesn't work out, itdoesn't work out.
And I can tell you that story,but it ultimately didn't work
out.
So uh yeah, get into that.

SPEAKER_03 (23:39):
So you so you you essentially take your life
savings, your husband's buyout,you're in Cincinnati, and you
say, here we go.
That that's a pretty big leap offaith.

SPEAKER_00 (23:50):
Yes.
Yeah.
Um so we uh like I said, we'reall in.
We started getting involved inthe Cincinnati startup scene.
It was pretty new at that time.
Uh going to there's this thing,I think it was called Startup
Weekends, where uh you wouldbasically try to put together a
company in 24 hours and thenyou'd have like a demo day.

(24:12):
So think like Shark Tank, whereyou'd get up and you'd do a
pitch, and then they'd givepeople like$10,000 to try to,
you know, do their company.
Um there's another thing thatwas happening at the time, which
was uh accelerators that's stillaround today.
Um so basically an acceleratoris when you uh join a cohort or
a class of people and they giveyou like$25,000 for 6% of your

(24:38):
company.
But in that time, um, you haveall the resources that they
have.
So for about three months,you're a part of a group and you
really work in and out of yourstartup, you use all their um
access to everything they have.
And then at the end of thatthree months, again, there is a
demo day.
And that demo day is when youtry to raise the big series um

(25:00):
or seed round.
So you're talking like 250,000to 500,000.
So we um went to apply for thethe local accelerator there in
Cincinnati, and I had gotten aninkling um through a couple
different uh scenarios that Iwasn't quite fitting into this

(25:23):
group.
And I think I had growing upwith a sports background, I
really uh was under theimpression that I, you know,
kind of had an equal part inthis, in this world that we live
in.
Uh sports is still it's changingslowly, but it's more uh a guy's

(25:44):
world.
And same thing with tech, but Ifelt very comfortable in that
world.
Um but when we went to apply forthis accelerator, uh we made it
to the final round.
We were going in for ourinterview, and in that meeting,
uh, you know, they're askingabout the company and, you know,

(26:06):
the background and that sort ofthing.
And I'm telling my background,my experience around being
blogger, which is why we'reworking with bloggers.
And the guy uh just looked at meand said, Why isn't he the CEO?
And looked over at my husband.
Um, and it was almost soshocking to both of us that we

(26:26):
didn't know quite how to, youknow, react.
And so I was kind of like, well,he's still, you know, he's just
now leaving his job.
He will be full-time, but I'mfull-time already on this.
And and we both left just beinglike, What was that?
What just happened?
And um, and you know, weekslater, I ended up having a uh

(26:51):
meeting, or it wasn't even ameeting, there was a friend, a
guy we both knew.
He had been in the accelerator,the cohort before.
So he was kind of like, I waslooking to him kind of as a
mentor of like, how do I gothrough this?
And uh we went out to eat at aBuffalo Wild Wings and um sat
there and I was we were kind oftelling him our experience and

(27:11):
that sort of thing.
And he uh somehow we got on theuh around like fundraising and
how to raise funds.
And he looked at me and said,Well, I would never give a woman
money.
Um, they're way too emotional toinvest in.

(27:33):
And so again, one of thosemoments where I'm just stopping,
not quite, it's not registeringlike what's happening here.
And I just looked at him and waslike, uh like even me, I'm I'm
your friend.
And he was like, Yeah, even you.
Um and so after those twomoments, I think we both didn't

(27:55):
quite know how to go forward.
And for me, it was this wholereckoning of I thought I thought
if I did all the right things,that it was just this was just a
game of working hard.
And I could do that in business.
I knew how to do that.
Um, and I kept running up intothis other barrier that I

(28:15):
honestly up until that pointdidn't think existed.
Like I had heard of sexism andso forth, that like that wasn't
in my privy, that was not in myworld.
And um, and I I even hate tothink like I doubted people when
I heard their story before, justthinking like, oh, they must
have done something, you know,that sort of thing.

(28:37):
Um, so then when I was runningup against it, just kind of
coming undone in in multipledifferent ways, and it didn't
really stop.
I mean, we ended up gettingaccepted into an accelerator in
Detroit.
And so we moved, um, put ourhouse, uh, we ended up renting
out our house, moving up toDetroit, uh, got up there, uh,

(28:59):
went through the accelerator,tried to raise money, and time
after time ran into the samething.
No one would invest in usbecause we were a married
couple.
We sat in a room where I shouldhave, and I still regret to this
day, that I did not get up andwalk out because I was in the
room.
The guy would not even, he was apretty big time investor, would

(29:21):
not even look at me.
Um, and I was the one pitching.
So it wasn't like I was justsitting there, I was the one
talking.
Um and and just yeah, just comeup barrier after barrier until
ultimately um we went for a demoday and tried to raise, and we
were running low on money.

(29:43):
Um, and my husband, he wasplaying in like a rec league.
Uh, I think some friends hadasked him to play basketball.
So he went out that night um andhe called me on the way home and
he was like, I'm Pretty sure Iseriously injured my ankle.

(30:05):
Um, we didn't know at the time.
We were in denial.
I think we didn't go to thehospital for uh two weeks.
Finally, he went to thehospital.
He had torn his Achilles tendon,which happened to be our
Achilles heel, because thesurgery was$11,000.
And at that point, because wewere at demo day, so we'd gone

(30:26):
through the three months, we had$10,000 in our account.
So it was literally the nail inthe coffin.
And we basically packed up, gotall our friends to pack us up.
Uh, and we ended up uh having tomove back in with my parents in
my childhood bedroom at age like20, 24, 25.

SPEAKER_03 (30:50):
What did that feel like?

SPEAKER_00 (30:52):
Pretty deflating.
Um, especially when we had made,like I said earlier, like we had
made a big deal of going afterthis thing, him quitting his
corporate chat job.
Um I was all in because this wasmy job.
Like I never actually went downthe path.
So I was like, if I can't makethis work, like what else is
gonna happen?

(31:12):
And I just it took me a longtime to realize my company
failing did not mean that I wasa failure.
And being him injured, me hungup in our you know, childhood
bedroom that hadn't been paintedsince I was 10 years old, uh,
with all my family knowing.

(31:33):
Um, but also I think it was thiseye-opening experience that was
very freeing because it was theworst thing in my head that
could have happened at thattime.
And when you hit rock bottom andrealized that at the end of the
day, I I had a home.
My parents had taken me in.

(31:54):
Like my mom was like doing mylaundry, like they were feeding
us, taking care of us.
And that was that was it for me.
So it was this eye-openingexperience that if, you know,
some people take risk andthey'll end up on the streets if
it doesn't work out.

(32:14):
I am the type of person thatshould take risk because my
family was right there when Ineeded them most.
And my aunt and uncle even letus they felt so bad for us
because we the whole family wasgoing on vacation.
We had zero dollars, so we couldnot go.
Um, but they took us with them,we stayed on the couch.

(32:36):
Um, and that was my low.
So it just to me, it um while Iwas really broken at that time,
it really broke me open to seelike this if this is my worst,
I'm gonna do okay.

SPEAKER_03 (32:52):
That's an amazing story.
Thank you for sharing that.
I mean, that's that's um Iruptured my Key Lee's tennis.
Okay.

SPEAKER_00 (33:00):
So you understand the pain and the boot.

SPEAKER_03 (33:02):
Yeah.
And I went for um about a weekand a half before I had surgery,
but I was in a boot.
I knew we were going on springbreak.
It happened playing co ed umsoccer, which I had never played
soccer before in my life, butbut got convinced to do it.
So I I feel your husband's painwith that.
Uh was he in a boot or anything?
He were just trying to hold it.

SPEAKER_00 (33:24):
So for two weeks it was just um we borrowed crutches
from a friend and he washobbling around.
But then, I mean, then the bootlasted for an entire year after
that.

SPEAKER_03 (33:32):
So wow.
It's just such a powerful storybecause again, you know, we talk
about entrepreneurship and whatpeople how people may view you
now.
They have no idea.
You move back into your bedroom,you know, from when you were 10
years old with your husband.
Yep, you know, rock bottom.

SPEAKER_00 (33:53):
Yep.

SPEAKER_03 (33:53):
But you didn't stop there.

SPEAKER_00 (33:55):
No, so we like I said, we'd spent all our money.
We had rented out our house, sothat was the one source, and
honestly, that was a blessingbecause had we not, it we
probably would have lost it.
But we had um rented it out sothere was a family there, and
then basically went back to thedrawing board.

(34:16):
So I applied, started applyingfor jobs again.
At this point, I actually didhave experience, so yay for
that.
Um uh went to work for uhScripps, which owns multiple
different television stationsacross the country.
Um, they pretty much own like Ithink half of all the local news
stations across the country werethere.

(34:37):
They were starting what was likethe ESP and insider of local
news, which sounds kind ofcrazy, but they were trying to
put up a paywall.
And I was basically the kind ofintrapris, so trying to help
them navigate this new digitalspace.
Um, and then at that point,that's when uh I we started to

(34:58):
get back on our feet.
Um, and about two years in, Istarted to get this kind of itch
again of I don't know if thisis, you know, this path is for
me.
Um and speaking ofrelationships, so one of the
things that we have said to eachother, both Colin and I, is if
either one of us at any pointhates what we're doing, we will

(35:25):
support the other one to juststop.
And so, I mean, a week in, Ithink I was like, I don't, I
don't know if I I don't know ifI could do this.
Um and he was like, just stop.
Like we we'll figure outsomething else.
It's not, you know, it's not abig deal.
But, you know, I wanted this waslike a challenge for me because
I'd never been in that, youknow, real job type thing.
So I, you know, stuck it out fortwo years, but that after two

(35:48):
years, uh just thought I wantedto kind of get back in the
startup world.
And so a mutual friend had umintroduced me to a guy.
He had a fashion company inCincinnati, Ohio.
So it was one of those thingsthat not many people are doing
fashion in Cincinnati, Ohio.
So he thought, you know, weshould meet each other.
And we ended up meeting, hittinghitting it off.

(36:10):
And then um he offered me a jobto come be the head of
marketing.
They were about to uh launch awomen's side of the business,
and they wanted uh me to kind oftake that on and help them with
that.
And people think uh at my workat the time, they thought I had
like left this, you know, mycorporate job for the startup

(36:32):
that was all sexy and had a youknow a big salary and title.
And little did everyone know, Itook half the pay of what I was
making to go to the startup.
And that in my head made sensebased off everything else I had
done.
I was like, well, you kind ofgot to step back to then be able
to go forward again.

(36:53):
And if I want to be in thisworld, I'm gonna have, I cannot
have everything.
Um so I I left that job and thenwent and started uh working for
Cladwell.
So Cladwell was not, I was notthe original founder.
It was not even named by me.
But once we launched the women'sside of the business, um, it

(37:14):
really started to grow.
And that growth ended up gettingus into another accelerator.
So at that point, we got into500 startups, which is one of
the top accelerators in not justin the country, in the world.
And that moved us out to SiliconValley.
So we were in Silicon Valley forabout four or five months, got

(37:36):
out there, and realizedbasically we had to throw away
our entire business and startover because everything up to
that point was websites.
So it was building websites,tech was all around that.
And this new thing called appswere starting, iPhones were
starting.
And so we were basically gonnathrow away that and start

(37:57):
building an app.
And at that point is when Ireally took over, kind of um
became a co-founder because wehad to rebuild the app from
scratch, kind of reoriented theteam.
And um we ended up getting thatpartnership with Marie Kondo,
who wrote like life-changingmagic of tidying up.
So we were starting to do biggerthings and um kind of took on

(38:21):
that business.
But with that pressure ofSilicon Valley came the pressure
to raise money from VCs.
And I was terrified because Ihad already done that once, did
not go well for me.
And here I was thrown into itagain, only this time it was on
a much bigger scale.
I mean, we were meeting withAndrews and Horowitz, and we
were meeting with um like MarkZuckerberg's sister I had a

(38:43):
one-on-one with.
So these were like big timenames in going out and trying to
raise money once again.
And once you're on that path ofraising money, it becomes this
game of billion dollar or bust.
And so um they had raised moneypreviously before, and my
co-friend and I were in a lotof, I mean, this is you know, a

(39:06):
a year later, so we were in alot of tension because I really
thought if we could turn it intoa subscription business, we
could basically lead our leadour own way.
We were we would no longer bedependent on fundraising and we
could actually um have a what Icall a business.
Um, but you know, we saw thingsdifferently, and I think he felt

(39:32):
the pressure of having alreadyraised money.
And ultimately, um, some newinvestors that ended up coming
on really put the pressure on tokind of be like the next
Pinterest, next Snapchat.
And so they wanted us to gofree, um, which meant we had
zero revenue and would be fullydependent on raising funds.

(39:56):
Um, because at that point, it'sjust growth is the game.
So you got to grow 30% monthover month.
And then if you do that, youwill continue to raise money.
But the problem is you have togrow 30% month over month.
And even if you are growing, butif it's not that number, it's
not enough.
And so uh that's the path we areon.
And we tried uh our darndest tomake it work, and the investors

(40:22):
cut us off because they werelike, you're not growing fast
enough.
And by the time we tried to putthe paywall back up, um, script
subscription to kind of like getback on our feet, it was it was
going bust.
And so this was August of summerof 2019, and we were kind of
faced with this, this is gonnadie.

(40:44):
This is gonna be the end of it,um, which really was panic
inducing because I'd eventhrown, we had once we got back
on our feet, once we were in anew startup, I ended up throwing
more of our money into this,because that's kind of the name
of the game.
Like, if you're in it, you're init.
And so I was terrified the samething was gonna happen.
This time I did have a littlemore like, I know I'm gonna be

(41:06):
okay, but still, this is notwhat I thought.
I I went through all of this.
I thought this one would workout.
Um and it it didn't.
Um, so he kind of wanted to goon, do something different.
I still had a huge passion forthis company.

(41:27):
Um and while the split did nothappen easily, I um my husband
and I again, once again, pulledall our money that we had and
bought the business.
So we bought out the remaininginvestors.
There's a small uh group thatgot bundled up and came over

(41:48):
with us.
And uh at that point the teamwas pretty much done.
So we bought whatever wasremaining of the assets, and
Cladwell was then in my controlof being able to kind of build
it back up to be what I thoughtit could be.

SPEAKER_03 (42:04):
Wow.
Yeah.
So where do you go from there?
I mean, now you're not at rockbottom, but now your back's
against the wall.

SPEAKER_00 (42:13):
Yeah.
Uh big time.

SPEAKER_03 (42:16):
So how do you come out of that?
I mean, you gotta come outfighting.
That's the only way you have.

SPEAKER_00 (42:20):
Well, and I think at that point, I Colin was like, we
should do this.
I see your passion for thiscompany.
And it was.
It was like the whole what endedup happening was like Cloudwell,
uh, honestly, our I feel likethe identity kind of merged in
together where Cloudwell endedup becoming kind of part of my
identity in the sense that thecompany was who I was.

(42:43):
Um, and the company's all aroundkind of this mission around the
capsule wardrobe and doing morewith less.
And I really felt uh passionateabout that.
Um and so I I was excited totake it on, but I there was
about a two to three week periodwhere I had to get my head right

(43:07):
around it because I wanted toknow that if I was gonna take
this on, I was gonna be okay ifit didn't work out.
I needed to, like I even, Ithink I wrote out like a fake
Facebook post of basicallysaying, like, this didn't, you
know, I tried my best to bringit out from where it was, and
um, and it's it didn't work out.

(43:29):
But I feel good that I um gaveit a shot to revive it.
And that's where I had to bebefore I could say yes to being
the CEO because I was um if my Iknew if I wasn't right, then
there was no chance that we weregonna buy all the assets and

(43:50):
basically in a matter of a yearit was gonna crumble again.
Um, and I also knew that I hadto have enough strength to be
able to answer uh to newinvestors.
Um, because out of that, we didnot want to take on any more
investment.
We didn't want to go down thatpath.
We wanted to be truly asubscription business that would
be basically funded by people uhusing the product who love us.

(44:16):
But at the same time, we neededabout$250,000 to be able to redo
the app because it had gotten sobuggy by the end of like every
investor that would give usadvice, we'd throw in a feature
to the app.
And so it was just a hot mess,and we knew we had to get it
back down to the fundamentals ofwhat it was originally.

(44:38):
Um yeah, so uh we ultimatelybought it, raised$250,000 from a
new investor who um their wholething, which this is crazy to
me, his whole thesis is that wewould not raise more money.

(44:59):
He believed in um up having aprofitable business.
So he gave us the money, knowingthat the way he would make his
money is if we had enoughprofit, he would get a piece of
that profit.
And that like hard to imaginethat that existed.
That was a very rare thing.
I think he's even gone on to dodifferent things, but that was

(45:21):
the timing, it was exactlyright, and he gave us exactly
what we needed, and um, we wereable to turn cloudwall around.
And here I am.
Um, I don't I don't even knowhow many years in I'm in, but um
four or five years past.
Well, that was 2019.
So I am yeah almost 26.
Um I am almost six and a halfyears, yeah, past that.

SPEAKER_01 (45:42):
So how did that meeting go?
Like with the meeting before,because you went in as a I'd
imagine as a CEO for thatinvestment meeting, right?

SPEAKER_00 (45:49):
Yep.

SPEAKER_01 (45:50):
How did how was your confidence with that?
Like knowing before you had thekind of the sexism going on with
you being a woman and people notlooking at you in in the eyes.

SPEAKER_00 (45:58):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (45:59):
Did you have any like anxiety about that or yes?

SPEAKER_00 (46:03):
I except my only thing is I knew before, because
I was not, I did not want toraise money from a normal VC.
And so I had done a bunch ofresearch around who would be the
right person to give us, becausewe just wanted this piece of
money.
Like that's we just needed alittle bit of capital to be able
to turn it around.
Um, so I had done a bus bunch ofresearch, and I knew that we

(46:25):
were aligned from like a visionstandpoint, but it was still a
matter of, as I have learned, somany people are different from
who they are on the internet,um, especially in that world.
So there was still a bit ofhesitation as I was initially
pitching our our vision to seelike, was he really the person

(46:46):
that I thought he would be?
And he truly was.
Like I've uh never felt moresupported from an investor.
And he met with us uh everymonth for the first year.
I felt like truly uh cared aboutthe company, but also like me as

(47:09):
a human.
Um and he kind of saws throughthe COVID years and um and yeah,
it was it was an entirelydifferent experience.

SPEAKER_03 (47:18):
It's pretty awesome.
Talk a little bit about whatCloudwell is, what what it what
is the app?
What uh if people want to go outand download that app, what do
they get?
What what what what's it allabout?

SPEAKER_00 (47:29):
Yeah, so if you've I don't know, I don't know if you
guys have ever seen the movieClueless, but there's this
moment where Cher goes to hercloset and she can't find
anything to wear.
And so then she turns around andshe goes to her computer, and
the computer magically putstogether outfits for her from
the clothes in her closet.

(47:51):
Um, I would like to say thatthat was actually truly the
inspiration.
That is just a good example forme to describe what this is.
Um but we have fundamentallybuilt that app.
And so it is a personal stylingapp that helps get you dressed
based off the clothes in yourcloset and what the weather is
like outside.
And the whole idea around it isaround uh this method using a

(48:15):
capsule wardrobe.
So, capsule wardrobe is a small,versatile group of items that
easily helps you mix and matchand create the most out of what
you have.
So in fashion, there's thisthing called fast fashion, very
similar to fast food, um, whereuh clothes are made cheaply.

(48:38):
Um, oftentimes the labor isoverseas, we cannot see what's
happening over there.
Um and then those clothes aresold to us very cheap here.
The main problem in that cycleis that we buy so much.
We almost treat clothing like aconsumable nowadays, and it

(49:02):
didn't used to always be thatway.
Um, and so this capsule wardrobemindset is around kind of having
a smaller wardrobe, but nothingcrazy.
I'm not like you only have tohave 30 items.
Like it's not about that for me.
Um, but it is having uh everyitem in your closet should be

(49:24):
something you wear and love.
And if you don't wear it, thenit should not be in your closet.
And so this app is kind of likewe have this mission around a
capsule wardrobe, but the appactually helps that, um, helps
you do that very easily.

SPEAKER_03 (49:40):
Okay.
Very, very unique.
That's pretty cool.
Yeah.
I hope my girls are listening.

SPEAKER_01 (49:45):
I have an older sister, so that's the only
reason I watched the showClueless or the movie Clueless.
Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_00 (49:50):
It's made a resurgence lately.

SPEAKER_01 (49:51):
One bajillion times growing up because my sister was
older and beat me up.
So thanks.
Beat you up.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (49:58):
Well, and it's this thing of like, so uh with women,
I don't think this is as bigamongst men, but I'll although I
will say it happens there too,is I would go to my closet every
day and say the same thing,which is I have too many clothes
and nothing to wear, which wasridiculous because in my
blogging days I had collectedall these clothes, so I ended up
having 450 items hanging in mycloset.

(50:20):
So to say I had nothing to wearwas ridiculous.
And it was in that moment, andthis is why I was so passionate
about Cladwell, is it was inthat moment that I realized like
I had been sold a lie that abigger closet meant I would have
better style.
So it was kind of this thisepiphany of if I believe this

(50:44):
lie, if I was bought into this,where else in my life have I
been following this same kind ofstory that isn't actually true
at all and just leads to moreconfusion.
So the capsule wardrobe reallyhelps you not just declutter,
like that I expected.
I expected my wardrobe to getsmaller, but the thing I didn't

(51:08):
expect is to eliminate theconfusion and really have a very
clear direction about who andwho I was and also what my style
was.
And that is what kind ofultimately changed my entire
life direction into thinkinglike, where else in my life have

(51:29):
I done this thing?
And going all the way back tokind of that childhood question,
that that was my first, youknow, after that was realizing,
I don't know if this hard workthing that I thought I bought
into, like, yes, I believeworking hard is important, but I
don't think it is about, youknow, working hard to get the

(51:52):
outcome.
And that was very much a storythat I had bought into from when
I was a kid by no one other thanjust the culture and and and
myself, um, that I realized thisthis is no longer, this isn't
working.
And even like the tech world,this is not working for me.

(52:14):
I do not have to keep fightingthrough this.
Like that is actually not notgoing to get me where I want to
go.

SPEAKER_03 (52:21):
Yeah.
Well said.
So you got Cladwell somewhere inthat time frame.
You have a child.

SPEAKER_04 (52:34):
Yes.

SPEAKER_03 (52:35):
So you got more than just all this entrepreneur stuff
going on.
You have a child in the in themidst of all that, while all
that's going on, right?
Talk about that, because that'sa whole another ball game.

SPEAKER_00 (52:47):
I think you're the first person who's ever asked me
that.

SPEAKER_01 (52:50):
Which that would have been right when everything
was going on, right?

SPEAKER_00 (52:53):
Yes.
So he was born in April of 18,and we bought the company August
2019.
So I spent, I mean, there wasnot much of a maternity leave
because it was a startup and youknow, it wasn't like we had an
HR department or anything likethat.
Um, but two weeks after I hadhim, which was not an easy

(53:17):
delivery, and uh, I was likerecovering from a C-section, and
we held a meeting in my house totry to figure out how we were
gonna make the next payroll.
So it was intense from you know,the moment I had him all the way
through trying to actually um,you know, when we were buying

(53:42):
the company, and that period wasit was like so sweet in so many
ways because I feel like havinga new baby um makes you see
things in totally differentlight.
Like I have so much moreappreciation for my mom and my
dad.
Not that I didn't then, but likeseeing, you know, there was one
time my mom came down because Ithink uh Colin was sick, he had

(54:03):
gotten the flu, I was sick, Ihad gotten the flu, and then
Rooney was sick, uh, my son.
And I'm like, we, I cannot, Idon't know how to take my care
of myself, let alone the child.
And so she came in aflu-infested house and took care
of him while we were able torecover.
So just like different, you justsee life, I think, in a

(54:25):
different way.
Um, but also I it did give me alittle, I would say,
fearlessness in the sense thatum I felt like a new person in
that things weren't, I had this,I'd done this hard thing.
If we had a baby, we had our ownfamily, and I I didn't want, I

(54:51):
wasn't gonna let what happenedto me in my first startup happen
again.
And so I think at that point,that's where I'm like, I'm I'm
all in on this.
And if it means that you have togo and I'm staying, I'm staying.
Um, but it was a tumultuous timebecause we had taken on what's
called in the industry, like badmoney.

(55:13):
So it was an investor that weneeded because we needed the
money, but we did act, weactually did not align with
where they wanted us to go.
But we were desperate.
And that ended up being reallythe death of the company because
they were the ones that advisedus to do things.
And at any point in that time,we could have stood up and said

(55:33):
no, but we didn't.
Um and yeah, so that and theywere out, so we were literally,
I had a new baby.
We were flying out to I can'tremember if it was Santa Monica
and back um to, you know, try toraise last minute money.
We took a trip to Chicago to tryto raise last-minute money.
So all of this is happening.
Why I have a less than one yearold in the house.

(55:58):
Um, yeah, I feel like I didn'tanswer that fully well.
Because it's in my head, it'sstill like a mush of just
things, but it was not thematernity uh, you know, that I
had imagined.
It was a different experience.

SPEAKER_03 (56:16):
What are you afraid of?
Is there anything out thereyou're afraid of?

SPEAKER_00 (56:20):
I mean, I am scared of everything.
And I wish if you met my child,you would understand he is also
scared of everything.
Um I think it's just that I Ijust I have a hard time not

(56:42):
doing what I really feel like inmy core I should do.
And um you're saying like afaith, you know, journey.
It's that uh that there is nobigger journey of faith than

(57:06):
trying to do something creative,trying to be in business in a
way that is good for people.
There are there are a lot ofbusinesses and a lot of leaders
who have no problem being inbusiness and treating people
like crap.
Um, but if you're in this to tryto make things better for

(57:30):
people, it is hard.
And um, I am very uh, like Isaid, a very scared person.
But I cannot not do what is whatI have that when I have that
feeling inside.
I cannot not go forward withthat um to a fault.

(57:50):
There's probably many times Ishould do something else.
Um but yeah, I I don't know howto describe it exactly, other
than it is truly living yourlife um without knowing what's
going to happen next.
And I think I have made acommitment to do that very
thing.

SPEAKER_03 (58:10):
You're not you're not scared of things.
You're fearless.
I mean, you may not see that,but you are fearless.

SPEAKER_00 (58:17):
Thanks.
I don't know if I believe you,but wow.

SPEAKER_03 (58:22):
I mean, what a story.
You just keep, you know, you getknocked down, but you get back
up.
I think that goes back to yourbasketball days.
That's where you that's what youlearn in sports, is that you
didn't win every game youplayed, right?
And those losses are the onesthat you remember.
That's those are the ones thatyou learn from.
I was just yesterday was at a uhat an event with about 350 high

(58:43):
school students, and I was in apart of a breakout session.
And my message to those kids wasI encourage them to do hard
things, to intentionally putyourself in difficult situations
so you can learn how to react.
And I asked them all, I said,you know, if you think but you
look back on your life, youknow, these are kids that are

(59:03):
freshmen in high school toseniors in high school.
How many times did you do youremember something impactful
where you were sitting on thecouch?
None.
How many times do you remembersomething where maybe it was a
practice that you had or a gamethat you had that you lost where
it sucked?
That's where you learn, right?

(59:25):
You learn when it sucks.
And I think um, you know, when Iwhen people ask me about
entrepreneurship, everythingyou've said, like I'm I have a
story to match not not every oneof your stories, but the
feelings.
Like as you're telling thosestories, I can specifically
remember dates and years and howI felt.

(59:47):
Um and entrepreneurship is man,it's a roller coaster.
It's a roller coaster ofemotions.
And you're right, you know, I Idon't live in fear, but you're
constantly.
A little bit on edge.

SPEAKER_00 (01:00:02):
Yes.

SPEAKER_03 (01:00:02):
Because there's a lot of pressure.

SPEAKER_00 (01:00:04):
And I would say that the highs are high and the lows
are low.
And that's the that's the rollercoaster.
There's just hardly a steady.
I mean, it's you have to getthere mentally yourself.
But the running a business andthat sort of thing, that is
yeah, I couldn't agree more.
And the hard the hard things,the, you know, doing hard

(01:00:25):
things.
I think I mean certainly peoplehave said that when, you know, I
was a kid, like we can, youknow, we can do hard things.
Um I never thought it would beinternal.
Um you think of that very muchas a physical thing.
Oh, I can run, you know, thesprints that we were gonna run.

(01:00:46):
Or I don't know, my collegecoach would make us run a mile
or it was a two-mile.
They called it the buck lapbecause we were the buccaneers
and we've had to run, and Ihated it.
But that's kind of what was inmy head when you would hear
growing up around, you know,being able to do the hard thing.
And everything from my 20s and30s has taught me that the hard

(01:01:09):
thing has been very littlephysical activity and very much
emotionally, you know, how doyou treat people when
everything's falling apart?
Um, how do you treat yourfriends?
How do you treat your partners?
Um what's it like when you haveno money in your bank account

(01:01:30):
bank account?
How do you get back up?
Um and it's things like thatthat I think really test you and
ultimately determine who youare, but I didn't realize that.
And certainly I I you knowdidn't realize that growing up.

SPEAKER_03 (01:01:52):
Yeah, I'm right there with you.
I you know, you talk about thehighs and the lows and all those
things, and and when you're ifthere's ever a point when when
I'm in the middle and things arelike, okay, we're all right, I'm
in the back of my mind, I'llthink of where's it kind of
where's it at?
Here it comes.
You know, I'm waiting for thatphone call or somebody to walk
in the office.
And and so I I I feel everythingthat you're saying.

(01:02:15):
So, you know, you make itthrough that time.
We're almost in 2026 now, butthat's not the only thing that
you do.
Cladwell is not the only thingyou do, right?

SPEAKER_00 (01:02:23):
It's not.
Um we so we have always dabbledin uh real estate on the side
throughout really throughout allof this.
Um I was telling him earlieraround us moving every two to
three years.
We would basically find a housethat we liked and then we would

(01:02:43):
renovate it, and then we wouldsell it.
So kind of like a flip, but itwasn't really in a this, we
didn't go into it with a flip.
It was more like, I'm gonna, Ineed to, if I wanna like this
house, I gotta renovate this.
Um and then yeah, then we wouldbuy another house.
So we kind of have done that onthe side ever since that first
startup.
Um, and then about I think itwas 2021, 2022, we uh bought a

(01:03:11):
building um in Madison, Indiana.
So uh down near Hanover College,there's uh it's a really, really
cute river town.
And there was this 10,000 squarefoot building that was
dilapidated.
And we had never done anythingthat big.
And we ended up buying thebuilding.

(01:03:34):
The owner had passed away, so itwas just kind of sitting there.
Um, and it took us about threeyears to renovate this building
completely, and we've turned itinto like a little mini boutique
hotel with I think it has eightAirbnbs that people can go stay
at.
And after that uh experience, Ithink I was like, I can't do

(01:03:58):
this for myself anymore.
I'm tired of spending our money.
Um, but I I mean I love design.
I've always loved design.
And at the about that time, myhusband was going through his
own kind of situation where heum he previously worked at a uh,
he was in app development, sothey had a product agency, and

(01:04:18):
he ended up selling his sharesof that company.
Um, and it that story in and ofitself, it all fell apart.
And we were in a lawsuit forabout a year, um, and talk about
another trial time wherebasically the entire friend
group that I thought I had eightyears ago is not the same that

(01:04:38):
we have today.
Um, and we went through thisperiod also at the same time
trying to renovate this buildingand came out of that completely
exhausted.
Um exhausted, and I say that,but each of us also like really
liked the work.
Like the work of he loves thebusiness side, thinking about
how to manage the money, and Ilove design.

(01:04:59):
And at this point, Cladwell waskind of in a good spot.
I really uh say, like, achievedthe millennial American dream
where it was kind of likepassive income coming in, but I
didn't have to spend everysingle hour sweating throughout
the day about it.
Um and he was looking for hisnext thing, and this company
came up in Cincinnati and it wasa husband and wife couple, and

(01:05:20):
they were looking to retire.
And uh it was a kitchenbusiness, like a cabinet
company.
And I think again, everyonethought we were crazy.
Like, what are you doing?
You never cabinets?
Like, what are you doing?
Um, but we saw as an opportunityto be able to do renovations for

(01:05:41):
other people.
And we could never financiallyfigure out how that worked,
which is why we always did kindof our own flips.
We could never figure out how tomake like design in the Midwest
work.
And this was a company where um,you know, people come in and we
basically get to do the designfor free, like get to help them

(01:06:02):
renovate their um and design outtheir entire kitchen.
And we uh provide the materials.
So the design is all kind ofbuilt into it.
Um, so we just that was about ayear and a half ago, bought our
first business on the west sideof Cincinnati, and just a month
ago ended up buying anotherlocation on the east side.

(01:06:24):
It was kind of we came, we cameback after the first year we
came back from spring break.
And it was the first springbreak that we had gone on or
trip that we had gone on where Ihad nothing to contemplate.
Like Cloudwell was in a reallygood spot.
We had we were a year into theWest Side business, and that was
looking really good.
And I'm like, I have, I havenothing, like the book that was

(01:06:48):
about to release.
I'm like, this is great.
And then no joke, Monday we getback, and the broker that we had
worked with on to find the WestSide location emailed and was
like, I just, I just felt like Ineeded to reach out to you guys
because there's this company onthe east side and it's a very
similar situation, and I justthink you should look at it.

(01:07:09):
And I was like, no, no, we justwe just got settled.
Like we can just breathe for thefirst time.
And the moment I was like, it'sfine, it's gonna be just some
like, you know, not not toogreat of a company.
And I opened their website andit's like they do modern kitchen
designs in Cincinnati.
And I'm like, so uh we met witha similar situation, husband and

(01:07:32):
wife comfortable comf uh husbandand wife couple um ended up kind
of wanting to retire and um wetook it over.
So now we have a west sidebusiness and an east side
business.
So yes, we have multiple thingsthat we're kind of dabbling in,
but they all seem to kind ofwork together in one way or
fashion.
Um and it keeps us busy andsane.

(01:07:55):
And I just feel like beingcreative in that way, um, in a
way that like I really feel likeI'm using my skills to help
other people is what I'm meantto do.
So this, you know, I complainabout it or whatnot, but I I we
really, we really, really enjoyit.

SPEAKER_03 (01:08:16):
You thrive on it.

SPEAKER_00 (01:08:17):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (01:08:18):
So I'll ask you the million-dollar question that
everybody asks me.
How do you do it all?

SPEAKER_00 (01:08:28):
With a lot of help.
I think if you're going to livethis type of life, you have to
be intentional about your timeand also not afraid to ask for
help.
So, you know, Collins family ismostly in Cincinnati, and his
mom comes helps us out some daysto pick up our son from school.

(01:08:52):
And um, my parents are only anhour and a half, and so they
help in a lot of ways, um, evenjust talking out, you know,
different problems.
Um and I think it's it's justreally important to be
intentional, but I will say thatthe problem that I had when I

(01:09:14):
was in the tech world was that Iwas not practicing alignment in
the sense that it constantlyfelt like I was being um so
honestly, here's the here's theanalogy I'll try to give you is

(01:09:34):
I think of this as kind of likea rip current.
So if you think of a ripcurrent, um you slowly kind of
get pulled out into the water.
It's very subtle.
And then once you're kind of inthe middle and you realize, oh,
I'm far from the beach, youstart panicking.
And in that panic, you startfighting.

(01:09:57):
That's the natural response isto start fighting against the
water, to try to make it back tothe beach.
And I think of my entireexperience in the startup world
and the tech world like that.
I realized I was really far outof myself, away from myself.
And I was panicking.
And so, but my panic was workharder, work harder, try to

(01:10:18):
fight through this, go find thenext investor, do what I need to
do, like be more like thepeople, like try, try harder.
And the way out of a rip currentis to swim sideways.
So if you swim horizontally, um,you can get out of the rip
current and then back to shore.

(01:10:38):
And that to me is what thisexperience has felt like.
So instead of fighting, I'vegotten out by completely leaving
an industry that I did not feellike I was my best self in,
getting out of that industry inaligned with more of my innate
skill set, which people havetold me forever that I should be

(01:10:59):
doing design, and I did notlisten.
And I finally feel like I'maligned with who I am and what I
was meant to do in this world,and I've gotten back to shore.
And it's all through um justagain feeling like, oh, I know
who I am and what I'm supposedto be doing first, trying to

(01:11:20):
fight um to keep up.

SPEAKER_01 (01:11:23):
That's a really good analogy.

SPEAKER_03 (01:11:25):
Very good.
What role has faith played inyour life?

SPEAKER_00 (01:11:29):
I'm the daughter of a preacher, so there's that.
Um a huge a huge piece, but Iwould say different than um So
here's how I think about it isthere's that uh verse that's I
think it's in Acts that's likeuh they first called them

(01:11:53):
Christians at Antioch.
And also I'm really bad atquoting Bible verses, so I feel
my mom's probably gonna listento this and be like, that's not
the right idea.
Um but they first called themChristians at Antioch.
And I love that because they didnot call themselves Christians,

(01:12:14):
they were doing things that weredifferent, treating people
differently, living differently,and people saw that and called
them something else.
And that is what I feel like tomy core, I aspire to do.
It is not necessarily not thatthere's anything wrong with you
know speaking about your faith,um, but I think I aspired to do

(01:12:39):
that in my businesses, I aspiredto do that in the book.
Is this was not about beingovertly Christian as much as I
hope and pray that people seehow I live and be like, what's
going on there?
And then call me a Christian.
So that is kind of how um how Ithink about my faith and um

(01:13:03):
living.
And like I said earlier, it'sit's you have to have faith to
be an entrepreneur.
I don't know how people do it ifthey don't.
Um, because there's so manytimes I'm just like, please help
tomorrow go well.
Um because it's just such a hugepart.
I think also that rhythm ofpraying every day, uh, just to

(01:13:25):
get my mind right and knowingthat I am part of something
bigger.
So if this doesn't work out,it's gonna be okay.
Um, but I need that in um to bein this.

SPEAKER_03 (01:13:37):
That's a great answer.
I'm uh final two questions.
Yeah.
So you wrote a book.

SPEAKER_00 (01:13:45):
I did.

SPEAKER_03 (01:13:46):
What year did you write the book?

SPEAKER_00 (01:13:48):
Um, when did you start writing?
I guess it was 2023.
So it took me took me threeyears because I had no idea what
I was doing.

SPEAKER_03 (01:13:54):
So what what inspired that?

SPEAKER_00 (01:13:57):
Really, it was it was the week between um, I guess
about three years ago, the weekbetween Christmas and New
Year's.
And um that's one of my favoritetimes because I think in a
business world, like nothing'shappening.
No, no customers are coming toyou unless you're like in uh
selling clothes or something.
Um, not many people are comingto you during that period.

(01:14:18):
So it's always my favorite timeof year.
We went up to my parents, wecame home, and I really thought
I was gonna burst because I hadall these things I had gone
through in the startup worldwere just inside my head, like
all these experiences.
I mean, I talked to Colin aboutthem, but I didn't really talk
to anyone else about them.

(01:14:39):
And I stayed up late one night,everyone had gone to bed, and I
went in the room next to herbedroom and just started
writing.
And then I ended up writing umone of the first the Buffalo
Wild Ween story.
Um, I ended up writing thatfirst, and then another story
after that.
And it just all started to comeout, and I realized that I think

(01:15:05):
I had a lot built up that I needto say, but there were also
these kind of through linesbetween.
Um, but it really wasn't untilabout six months of writing that
I thought, okay, I think thiscould maybe be something.
Um, and like a capsule wardrobe,I was really familiar with kind

(01:15:25):
of decluttering my closet.
And the book was all around kindof decluttering all these
stories that I had held on tofor so long that had shaped my,
you know, identity.
And I didn't realize I was,didn't realize they were driving
my life.
So it was all around kind oftaking, like you do with
clothes, like taking out onestory, one um mantra at a time

(01:15:47):
and kind of facing it andputting it in the light and
being like, do I, do I reallyeven believe this anymore?
Um so that was kind of when Icame up with the whole kind of
concept around, okay, I thinkthis this book would be like 10
years of therapy and threeyears.

SPEAKER_03 (01:16:03):
How did it feel when it was released?

SPEAKER_00 (01:16:06):
It was it was good.
I I think the night before afriend had called me and she I'd
given her an early coffee, andshe was telling me that she, her
son, plays baseball, and she washer husband was driving to the
games and she was reading it tohim as they were driving.

(01:16:30):
Um and so starting to hearstories like that was a huge
relief that it was resonating.
But to be honest, that was whereI had the most fear.
This was the first time.
I mean, there were things inthis book that I hadn't told

(01:16:52):
close family members.
So this was the first time of mereally putting myself out there.
And it wasn't that I was scaredof like, you know, people on the
internet reading it or evenreviews, like I could care less
about that.
Like I want people to read it,but that wasn't the scary part.
The scary part was like my innercircle reading it.

(01:17:14):
And and there was this bigquestion of would the world burn
down after I put this out in theworld.
And I think it was reallyhelpful to know that I could say
what was on my mind um and bemyself and the world still
stands afterward.

SPEAKER_03 (01:17:33):
And what's the name of the book?

SPEAKER_00 (01:17:34):
The Roadless Worn.

unknown (01:17:37):
The Roadless Worn.

SPEAKER_03 (01:17:38):
People can get it on Amazon.

SPEAKER_00 (01:17:40):
Yeah, you can go to um the roadless worn.com that
actually sends you directly toAmazon, but you can get it
anywhere.
So um I think it's on Walmartand Barnes and Noble's and all
that sort of thing.
It's also an audiobook.
So if you're not a reading type,um it is on Audible um and I
believe Spotify as well.

SPEAKER_03 (01:18:02):
Awesome.
All right, last question.
Yeah, it's been awesome, by theway.
Oh, good.
I mean, it's fantastic.
You you've you've brought somany memories, uh, you know,
just the challenges that I'vebeen through.
I hadn't thought about in a longtime, just by you telling some
of your stories.
So thank you for that.
But last question if you couldsit on a park bench and have a
conversation with someone livingor deceased, who would it be and

(01:18:25):
why?

SPEAKER_00 (01:18:26):
I've thought a lot about this.
I don't have a great answer.
But here's what I will tell you.
I think it's either Jesus.
He'd probably try to talk to mein parables, and I'd be like,
listen, I need some straightanswers because you talked in
stories and now everyone'sconfused.
So if you could be clear, thatwould be great.
Um, so that, or like JoannaGaines.

(01:18:49):
And I say that because I thinkum it sounds kind of like
superficial on some level, acelebrity business owner type
thing.
But she has done the thing thatI think I aspire to do in the
sense that it feels as thoughthey have figured out how to do
family and have a business.

(01:19:11):
And um also she would host agreat party.
So there's that.
Um, but it would be great tokind of talk to someone who's
hit like that peak level of youknow, success in the worldly
sense.
And I'm sure she has a thousandstories.
So to be able to ask questionson how did you navigate this to

(01:19:33):
get to where you are would be afascinating um conversation for
me.
So Jesus and Joanna.

SPEAKER_03 (01:19:40):
That's a great answer.
You got anything else to add?

SPEAKER_01 (01:19:43):
Yeah.
So what would be your advice?
Like we have entrepreneurs onhere every once in a while.
Um, and I think this might beour first one as a woman, I I
think if I'm forgettingsomebody.
But the struggle that youmentioned there, um, with
especially your first startupkind of falling, and it seems
like it's really not even yourfault.
You know what I mean?
It was something you can't evencontrol.

(01:20:05):
Um, how did you get thatconfidence in yourself?
And what would you tell likesomebody else that's maybe
wanting to become anentrepreneur as a lady that you
know are might face the samestruggles that you did, and
maybe the advice to keep themgoing?

SPEAKER_00 (01:20:17):
I think for for one, it's changed a lot, I would say,
for the better since I uh wentthrough it.
So when I went through it, thiswas like pre-me too, pre anyone
even um talking about the factthat I say the stat in the book
and I and I think it's slightlyshifted.
Um only 2% of women get fundingfrom investors.

(01:20:40):
So it was incredibly hard atthat time.
It is still incredibly hard, butthe momentum is the awareness is
there.
And so people are more um saytrying to help women
entrepreneurs.
There's a lot of different uhwomen VCs that have come forward
as well as uh specific funds forfemale entrepreneurs.

(01:21:02):
My advice is to know it's goingto be hard.
Because I think that was myproblem, is I was in this, you
know, bubble growing up in asmall town.
Um, a lot of people supported mewith sports.
So I I was just completelyunaware this existed.
And I kind of think that was myproblem.
It's because I went up againstit and I was like, I don't
understand what's happening.

(01:21:24):
People today, I feel like if Iwere to give them advice, it
would be, no, this is this isgoing to happen.
Like you will run up againstpeople who will not treat you
the same.
But you're almost better toaccept that fact and then figure
out how you're gonna navigateit.
Because if you're in denial thatit doesn't exist, then you're
gonna be in for a rude and rudeawakening.

(01:21:46):
And if you try to fight it theentire time, you're just gonna
exhaust yourself.
So you really got to figure outwhat works for you to be able to
push through it.
And um, I'm not gonna say thatit's easy, but I think it can be
worth it.
Um, and it's just a matter ofagain, figuring out how do you

(01:22:08):
keep your sanity through throughit all.
Um so acceptance, I would say,is probably the biggest piece of
advice I would give.

SPEAKER_03 (01:22:18):
Would you change any of what you went through now,
knowing where you're at now?

SPEAKER_00 (01:22:24):
I don't know if I would change necessarily like
the path I went down.
I will say toward the end of umCladwell and or like Cladwell
before we had taken it over.
Um and certainly some of thosemeetings, I wish I would have

(01:22:52):
used my voice more or stood upfor myself more.
And I think I just didn't havethe confidence that I have today
in that.
And it's really confidence byjust like, you're just a person.
Half these VCs are just it's noteven their money, it's the
firm's money.
Um and I just was there was sucha weird power dynamic in it all.

(01:23:15):
And so it felt very much aboutlike proving myself and trying
so hard.
And I would just tell my youngerself, like, don't try so hard.
Um, like just be who you are.
And in some ways, I just thinkthat actually would have
resulted or led to betterresults than kind of me trying,
trying.

(01:23:36):
Um yeah, but I wouldn'tnecessarily change because I
think it it's it's hard to say Idon't know how I would have
ended up where I am today.

SPEAKER_03 (01:23:45):
But you gain confidence through experience.

SPEAKER_00 (01:23:47):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (01:23:48):
I mean, that's where it comes.

SPEAKER_00 (01:23:49):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (01:23:51):
Wow, man.
Thank you.
This was awesome.
Like this I didn't know what toexpect.
You know, you and I had aconversation and I've done done
a bunch of homework on you.
Um but this has really uh beencool for me again because you've
taken me back to, you know, in2003 when I bought the business

(01:24:11):
and all the the trials andtribulations that I I went
through, you know, being youngand dumb and not really knowing
anything, but you know, being tothe point that where you're at
now and where I'm at now, um, II think the confidence thing is
huge because that's you know,that's probably in the last
three years has clicked for me,is where I finally started to

(01:24:32):
gain some confidence and andrealize exactly what you said is
like it doesn't matter who youmeet with, they're they're a
human being, they put on theirsocks the same way you do, they
put on their pants one leg at atime, you know.
Um, and you know, all thosethose sayings are cliche, but
they're true.
Yeah.
And um, you know, we're we'reall here for most of us are here

(01:24:55):
to help others um to get betterevery day, and um, you know, and
the only way you can get betteris is through experience and to
gain confidence and to not stop.
So you have proved that beyondmeasure.
So good job.

SPEAKER_00 (01:25:10):
Thank you.
Take that as a win.

SPEAKER_03 (01:25:13):
How uh how can people connect a website, uh,
the app, the book?
We kind of talked about that alittle bit, but give any uh if
the if somebody wants to get ahold of you, can they reach you
through your website?

SPEAKER_00 (01:25:24):
Yeah.
Um so if you go to cladwell.com,that is where all things
cloudwell are.
Um I even think there's a bannerright now there that leads to
the book.
So it's like cladwell.com slashthe roadless worn.
That has all my informationthere.
Anyone can email me.
It's just Aaron at Cladwell orAaron at cladwell.com.

(01:25:46):
Um and then there's the cladwellInstagram.
So that's at Cladwell app, um,which I manage.
So pretty much pretty easy toget a hold of me.
Um that's all the things appfrom the design kitchen design
business.
That's East Maine.
So if you go to Eastmaine.com,that actually is the both

(01:26:06):
locations, as well as it has thelink to East Main Lofts, which
is the place down in Madison,Indiana that we run.
So I think those are the twomain things.
And yeah, I would love to hearfrom people.

SPEAKER_03 (01:26:20):
Yeah, that's that's awesome.
We'll uh and we'll link allthose when the uh when the
episode drops.
So thank you again for makingthe track and sharing your
story.
And uh we certainly wish you andyour husband and and your son
the best.
We talked a little bit before westarted recording about you know
your son's starting into sportsand all those fun things.
So now you're gonna add that toyour your daily endeavors along

(01:26:43):
with all the other things you'redoing.
So it's exciting.

SPEAKER_00 (01:26:46):
The joy of parenting a seven-year-old boy.

SPEAKER_03 (01:26:52):
We both have some experience with that.
That's good.
All right, everybody.
Continue to like and share andsupport the show.
We appreciate your ears and goout and be tempered.

SPEAKER_05 (01:27:02):
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This is my dad.
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I want to share something that's become a big
part of the Beatempered mission.
Patreon.
Now, if you've never used itbefore, Patreon is a platform
where we can build communitytogether.
It's not just about supportingthe podcast, it's about having a
space where we can connect on adeeper level, encourage one
another, and walk this journeyof faith, resilience, and

(01:27:52):
perseverance side by side.
Here's how it works.
You can join as a free memberand get access to daily posts,
behind the scenes updates,encouragement, and some things I
don't always put out on otherplatforms.
And if you feel called tosupport the mission financially,
there are different levels whereyou can do that too.
That support helps us keepproducing the podcasts, creating

(01:28:14):
gear, hosting events, andsharing stories that we believe
can truly impact lives.
And here's the cool part.
Patreon has a free app you candownload right on your phone.
It works just like Facebook orInstagram, but it's built
specifically for our community.
You'll be able to scroll throughposts, watch videos, listen to
content, and interact withothers who are on the same

(01:28:35):
journey.
At the end of the day, thisisn't just about content, it's
about connection.
It's about building somethingtogether.
Not just me and Ben putting outepisodes, but a family of people
committed to growing strongerthrough real stories and real
faith.
So whether you just want to hopon as a free member or you feel
called to support in a biggerway, Patreon is the door into

(01:28:56):
that community.
Because at the heart of BeTempered has always been simple
real stories, raw truth,resilient faith.
So that even one person outthere that hears what they need
to hear, and Patreon helps makethat possible.