Dylan Freedman, Black Belt, Corrections Officer Trainer, Combatives Trainer - Beyond the Belt #26 - Beyond the Belt

Episode Transcript
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(00:25):
Hey Dylan, thanks for being on.
how you doing?
Thanks for having me.
Good.
Tell me, what was it like for you to get your black belt?
Honestly,
think get my black belt was the biggest belt that really meant something was the when Iended up getting my blue belt.
I think that was the most powerful belt where you feel like, I made it.

(00:47):
I'm here.
The black belt.
So the most part, it probably took me, I think I started training jiu jitsu in 2008.
And then from there got really serious about it probably 2011 when I started fighting.
Um, so probably I got my black belt and 20, I got my black belt in 2024.

(01:14):
So however many years that took me to end up getting my black belt, uh, by the time I gotit, uh, it didn't, the belts didn't mean as much to me anymore.
It was cool.
Cool to have it.
It's more of a, a status thing or something that gives me the ability to market myself orfor.

(01:34):
someone in the outside world ah who's, I wouldn't say unknowledgeable, but not, he hasn'tbeen doing Jiujitsu.
It gives me as more of a subject matter expert within a realm when I'm selling myself ormy abilities to them, I guess would be the best way to word that.
I went...

(01:57):
important for you?
Like, what was that to you?
No one, no one, no one's super excited.
All right, I'm a white belt.
I'm a white belt.
Like you can't something about getting that blue belt all of a sudden makes I think whenyou're younger, you're looking for uh

(02:17):
I wouldn't say to a certain point validation and all the wrong places are love in a bunchof different places.
And when you first get into Brazilian Jiujitsu, those black belts, those brown belts, youwant their recognition or their validation or for them to tell you that you're there in
order to a certain point to believe that you're actually there.

(02:40):
And I think that that blue belt right there is the first one.
And everyone's going to have that kind of on their journey until you get to the pointwhere you believe in it yourself.
ah Getting that blue belt gave me that for the time being where it's like, okay, I think Iat the time got it from Julio Focca and BJJ Revolution and Josh Roth, who was out of

(03:04):
Connecticut, combat sports and Jamestown, New York.
And it made me, it made me feel like I was recognized, I guess would be the best way toword it.
ah
And I skipped a ton of belt ceremonies.
It probably took me three, four years because I came from a wrestling background.
So I was super anti the gi.

(03:25):
I'm probably still anti the gi to be honest with you.
I only compete inside of NoGi.
But I did gi long enough to, I always tell people I did gi long enough in order to get myblack belt.
And once I got my black belt, I've probably been in the gi.
two or three times after that, I kind of put it on the retirement.
ah So that way when we...

(03:48):
The black hole?
for somebody to have a black belt or do you?
uh Does that not matter to you as much?
So.
My opinions when it comes to things are consistently fluid and constantly changing.
I'm a living walking contradiction on the things that I say one year, the next year itmight not, it might change.

(04:13):
ah So do I think that it's important inside of the gig?
Sorry, the gig is important.
I was raised inside of, to a certain point, a traditionalist gym.
I go back and forth on it.
I think it's like, Matt time is important being on the mat.

(04:37):
If you're training inside of the gi, I think, yeah, it's absolutely beneficial becausethere's things inside of the gi that give you the ability compared to NoGi to slow stuff
down incredibly.
Uh, the gi slows the pace down incredibly.
So
A lot of times you can't use your athletic ability to get out of certain spots and youreally have to break it down to the point where uh if you get a kid that's a brick shit

(05:04):
house or something, who's constantly getting out of position, so on and so forth, he'llget frustrated inside of the gi or someone that came from a wrestling background.
For me, like you, I came from a wrestling background that was my first true love.
So when I first got in the gi, I was like, man, this is stupid.
I feel like I'm wearing a...
I feel like I'm wearing a bathrobe here.

(05:26):
I think there was for us inside of wrestling, I'm going to go on a lot of rambling herefor you.
OK, you're to have to reel me back in a bunch of times.
But I think for us inside of wrestling, when the Gi was very similar or turned a lot ofwrestlers off because it was like karate.
OK, and I've never been a huge fan of karate, even though I trained in karate.

(05:47):
OK, I think I started off in kung fu.
I've done karate, American boxing.
uh
Not Ameri- but would that be American boxing?
I don't even know.
not, just regular boxing, yeah.
I'm like the guy when it comes to moves inside of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu.
ah Where, you ever seen the movie Tropic Thunder?
ah I think it's, what was the, Mick Nolte?

(06:12):
I think it was Nick Nolte, was the guy with the hands, who had like the claws for handsand what was the one actor's name that did all the explosions in it?
ah Gosh, he's Eastbound and Down, but Eastbound and Down actor.
But he asked him in the movie, he goes,
Do you, he goes, what type of pistol is that on your side?

(06:32):
And I think it was Nick Nolte's character goes, I don't know the name of it.
I just know the sound it makes when it kills.
So sometimes I'll be inside of practices and I'll have, can you guys ask me about a move?
What's the hochi gari?
I don't even know what the name of it is.
And I'll be honest, I know it's ignorant to a certain point, but most of the name of movesor when it comes to technical things that I should really know.

(06:55):
I consider it like that movie.
I don't know the name of it.
I just know the sound it makes when it kills.
And I think I've, throughout my career doing Jiu Jitsu, so on or so forth, I've alwaysbeen working it back to that blue belt, almost resistant ah towards the status quo when it
comes to things.

(07:15):
I think as a kid, I was kind of a behavioral issue uh child.
So when people tell me that I need to do something, I'm resistant towards it.
Yeah.
was the reason that it took me so damn long to get my looking back and self reflecting toget my blacked out.
When it comes to the key, go ahead.
thing that I struggle with remembering move names.

(07:39):
And so often when I'm teaching it, I will like go look up the names and the position namesand whatever, because I want to offer people something to like, oh, if you want to look it
up, here's what you look up.
But up until I started teaching, I was just like, I know this move and I know it works.
And so I don't know how to get to, I don't know the position that puts me here.
I know the position.
I don't know the name of it.

(08:00):
Right.
called, but I know that I can heel hook you from here, like a lot of that.
100%.
I have a buddy, Brian Dury, ah a gym that I train at.
It's a JT Torres affiliate.
uh Real tough guy, tough guy in the competition scene too.
And I was at his practice.
I train a lot there when I'm inside of Albany.
I hop from gym to gym to gym, and I'm sure we can get into that later on down the road.

(08:23):
ah when I was at one of his practice one day, he was doing a kimura that was with a legstep over.
that I kind of have a lot of success with.
And one of his white belts that was inside of the room said, oh, that's a, and gave theJapanese term to the, whatever the move's name was.
And he shut them down inside of the class and goes, I don't know the Japanese name of it.

(08:45):
It's a kimura with a leg step over.
And that's me right there.
That sums me up.
That's when I knew I loved the dude.
If you're tracking that because.
Honestly, some of the Japanese names, again, it's ignorance to a certain point.
If I wanted to spend time on it and be a real fanboy of Jiu-Jitsu, I would learn thetechnical names of it.

(09:05):
But a lot of the Japanese names actually make the moves more difficult for me to retainthe information to a certain point.
So when I'm doing a lot of teaching, have, say that again,
a coach who used to work at my gym who when he was coaching students during competitions,he would yell out Japanese names to things and everybody was like, what are you, what is
the, like his style of coaching was to yell out the Japanese name for something.

(09:29):
And I'm like, take your left hand, put it on their right hip.
Okay, dig for that underhook by sliding your, like go turn your palm to the inside, reachup and like.
Mine is as dumb as possible and he's like go to Osoto something and I'm like, I I don'tknow what all those things are
Thank you, that didn't help me out at all, at all.

(09:49):
yelling Japanese names to like white belts or blue belts and they're, they're like, Iwouldn't know what it would be if you said the, you know, non Japanese name.
I think there's a portion of the Jiu Jitsu community.
um And I love them.
Don't get me wrong.
I love them, but they're fanboys really of the sport.
ah

(10:11):
I'm good at Jiujitsu.
I'm good at Jiujitsu, but I'm not a fanboy.
Sometimes I'll go in competition and I'll beat like high level people that are in the top10 sometimes and they'll go, do you know who that was?
And I go, I have no idea.
I have no idea who it was.
Number one, I study a lot of Jiujitsu, but I don't pay too much attention to who's whobecause sometimes I think that gets inside of your mind also in the midst of competition

(10:34):
where now I'm wrestling, excuse me, grappling the name instead of actually just going outand doing my thing.
I'm too
I'm too cautious in my attacking so on and so forth.
But when it comes to the, they'll do two things.
They know everybody's name inside of the sport, or they'll know all the names of thesemoves.
Or it comes down to a certain point where people know, they know a whole lot about a tonof things, but they're not quite proficient in a system.

(11:07):
they're not.
very good in one thing, I guess would be the best way to word it.
um Working it back to the gi, unless you've got something else.
ah I think, yes, for a person that knows no Jiujitsu, I think it's incredibly beneficialto be inside of the gi.
um I think if I ever ended up opening up a gym, I would be real big on guys being insideof the gi in order to move up through the ranks.

(11:36):
But I don't know either, because a lot of people throughout the years that told me your Giis only going to make your NoGi game better.
ah They were they were really bad in NoGi.
It was like a fish out of water when they got inside of the NoGi.
ah When I had gotten back from.
The military, uh I was.

(11:58):
I'm going to be all over the map on the again here, OK?
But when I had gotten back from the military, the.
uh
I had a coach, one of my original coaches, Josh Roth, a real tough dude, played inside ofthe NFL for the Buffalo Bills.
oh Then afterwards when he was done, think he was a, yeah, played for the Buffalo Billswhen he was younger, got picked up by them, recruited.

(12:23):
ah And then afterwards got in the Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and the guy was, he was an animal.
But when I got out of the military, I kind of came back to his gym um for work.
living inside of the area again.
I live in Jamestown, New York right now.
I kind of think it's like one of those, oh it's the best way to word it.
It's like the scene inside of The Godfather where he goes, actually, I don't even rememberthe words to it.

(12:48):
He says something like, they always come back.
And I'm sure someone will watch this and go, this guy has no idea what he's talking aboutwhen it comes to movies.
I'm gonna bomb every movie that I tell you.
Okay, but let's pretend it was in The Godfather.
Jamestown, New York is like that.
Once you come to it, it's going to pull you right back over and over again.
ah And every time I go, I'm done with this city, I'm back, baby.

(13:09):
Okay.
Kicking in the door like that meme of Big Bird.
ah But when I got back out of the military, came down and Josh Roth told me that, uh youknow, because I work full time, I got to focus on one or the other if I want to be really
proficient inside of competing in Jiu Jitsu.

(13:31):
Um, and my goal after getting out of the military, came out with a good amount of, uh,injuries.
So getting back at that time, I was still a brown belt.
And my goal was who knows why to make a really good, probably around that time period, Iwas good enough to be, and I got out in 2022 was good enough to probably get my black belt

(13:52):
around then.
Um, but I wanted to make a run at it because of the injuries that I had.
And when I was in the military, I didn't have the.
um I didn't have the ability really to compete because of the war, so on and so forth.
And then when I got back from the war, I was injured.
So.
um

(14:14):
When I got back, my goal was I didn't want to just get a black belt then start competingat black belt.
ah So I wanted to really make a run at it at Brown Belt.
And I had some crazy goal to win worlds at Master One inside of NoGi.
So he told me, basically, I'd rather have you do a NoGi practices like crazy here andreally focusing on your NoGi game and will orient you or push you towards, towards,

(14:41):
towards
achieving that goal that you want.
But it's very difficult to focus on both, Gi and NoGi, if you're a competitor and beproficient in both, if you have a full time, if you have a full time job.
in my, in my personal opinion, and I'm talking being perfect, go ahead.

(15:02):
focusing just on NoGi or are you happy about that decision now?
I'm super happy to be honest with you.
As uh with the injuries and everything that I've had, I've, whenever I get in the Gi, ithurts, it hurts my neck.
I tweak my neck.
uh And I've always had that Dan Gable philosophy where, hey, just power through it, powerthrough it, power through it.

(15:27):
ah Not, or what are the Russians doing?
Some days I wake up in the.
And in the middle of the in the middle of the night and I go to myself, what are theRussians doing?
Because I'm so ingrained with like that Dan Gable philosophy.
I've never.
Right.
The wrestler.
uh And I've never fought the Russians.
I'm probably never going to fight the Russians unless a world war kicks off.

(15:48):
uh Hopefully the military takes me back if that happens.
uh Even with all the injuries I have.
So.
to take of wanting to be a part of that world war, once you're over a certain age.
It's strange, I think for any combat veteran, it's always like, ah for most people, they'dlike a good death surrounded by your family where they're all above you and you got all

(16:13):
these memories flashing before your eyes and of all these things that you've done.
I think for combat veterans, it's like, I want a good military death, okay?
I want like a good shootout.
Go ahead.
Okay, all right, all right.
believe you and I know a lot of people who are like that, but after having seen enoughcombat in the Iraq war, I'm not interested in a like, like no judgment for people who do,

(16:39):
but for me, it's just not my, not my thing.
I think there's just a part of my soul that's never gonna leave Afghanistan.
I don't think, we'll dive on that later on down the road if we dive into that.
I think for me, okay.

(17:01):
do like, I'm happy to talk about being in the military because that's what got mepartially into Jiujitsu.
You know, I started learning combatives and from a guy who had done MMA and was like, Oh,you're a wrestler.
can learn from you and I can show you Jiujitsu.
And I was like, what's that?
Right.
So in the military is where I found out about like what Jiujitsu really could be in thegi.

(17:24):
And it was a part of like how I became.
you know, like uh what I consider to be a reasonably competent martial artist.
What was that for you?
a Gi guy or do you do lot of uh NoGi?
So I did so much NoGi that, so I used to train at Marcelo Garcia's in New York uh and Igot my blue belt with a whole crew of people at the same time.

(17:46):
And then when he promoted, you know, that whole crew, the majority of that crew to purplebelt, he didn't give it to me.
And he pulled me aside and was like, look, you're at that level, NoGi, but you don't wearthe gi enough.
Mm-hmm.
at first I was a little upset about that.
was like, but what, you know, what about, but like in hindsight, he was absolutely right.
And now I wear them pretty, I do pretty much both equally, but I also hated the gi backthen.

(18:11):
And now I like it.
I like it because I like the lack of athleticism required and I like the athleticismrequired NoGi, but I do like the
Difference in feel I like the slowness that can happen and I like that it feels like it'salmost a different sport
Right, right.

(18:32):
And that's kind of the last thing I agree with you right there.
I think grappling as a whole, whether it's judo, sambo, Brazilian jiu-jitsu, ah freestylewrestling, wrestling, Greco, folk style, they're all grappling.
And I think it gets strange where people begin to...

(18:57):
like make this this is the best sport this is the best judo is the best wrestling is thebest none of it they're all the same thing they're just dictated by their rural sets to a
certain point right um why
I would say that what you said the last part right there, I think to a certain point,they're two separate sports.

(19:18):
I think that Gi is its own sport and especially with the right now with the modernizationor the Renaissance that's happening.
I would have to almost say that no Gi is almost an Americanization of the Jiujitsu as awhole.
ah Now I got a lot of Brazilian friends if they end up watching this that are going to belike, I'm going to be ostracized after saying that.

(19:40):
But I think the reason behind that is the American folk style wrestling with all thewrestlers that are freestyle guys too, that are getting involved inside of the sport.
It took it from 15 years ago where you had a lot of guys that were, you go to a lot ofthese tournaments and it's very heavy from wrestling from your feet.

(20:01):
Whether that's ADCC, whether it's uh IBJJF, especially IBJJF, when I was at Worlds, Idon't.
I'm trying to think.
I don't know if that in my bracket there was there was like one or two submissions thatended up happening.
It was heavy from the feet and that could have been because of the time limit that we hadright there that if you do get your guard pass and you go down, you only have so much time

(20:23):
at Masters one.
But I I I see this is two separate sports to a certain point.
I think that the Gi is great.
Just before we move on to that, I think that the Gi is great.
I may have touched on that a couple times.
Um
If you are a NoGi guy though, and my background is very heavy more than anything to acertain point when it comes to competing.

(20:51):
And even a lot of the guys that I work with inside of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu are eitherfighters, MMA fighters, I work with a bunch of gyms inside of that, or they're uh
competitive NoGi guys.
ah I wouldn't call myself, I'm decent inside of the gi, but if you wanted to come do apractice and get real good at gi,

(21:11):
I'm definitely not your guy to come to.
I'll be the first person to say that.
I don't compete inside of the gi.
And to be honest with you, if I competed inside of it, I wouldn't do as well as I doinside of the NoGi.
Just because I'm not...
One time I think I was pretty damn good, probably around brown belt, since I've moved awayfrom it quite heavy.

(21:34):
I wouldn't say...
If you're not doing it a bunch, it's like shooting.
Right?
You're not going to be incredibly proficient within that realm right there.
I respect the living hell out of the gi.
To be honest with you, it frustrates me to a certain point when I do put it back on and Igo and roll with a dude, especially when you...
The funny thing about a gi, you'll get a middle-aged dad that's incredibly out of shapeand you'll go roll with him and he grabs onto you and you can't move past it because

(22:04):
you're having trouble breaking the grips or something.
And sometimes I'm on top of them and I just want to start landing blows.
Yeah.
to their head right there and I got to hold myself back like, all right, listen, thisisn't a big deal.
But if you allow your ego to get involved when you're rolling inside of the key, and thenyou do because I'm a higher level competitor.
Again, not trying to be cocky.

(22:25):
But it's hard sometimes when uh you get inside of that practice room and that's that's thekey to try to avoid to try to what's
that ego check on a regular basis.
I like that when sometimes I'll go against a white belt strong kid in the Gi and thenthey'll grab me and I'm like, this is really difficult to get past.

(22:55):
Maybe I'm not as good as I think I am.
Not that I'm that good necessarily, but it's like a good ego check to remind myself like,it doesn't matter.
Especially, know, one of the things that I always remember is that sometimes new momstrength in a gi is really difficult to get through.
And new like new parent strength, whether it's a new mom or a new dad, and they've justlike been holding their their kid and they're walking around with a, you know, 10 pound 15

(23:23):
pound weight all the time, all of a sudden, that strength is real strength.
And like working against that is a nice reminder that there is more than one way to get
muscle and hold on to something in the gi.
And so that's like a good ego check for me.
Not that my ego generally gets out of the way in the way, but
Well, I think we're humans.

(23:44):
It's the human condition.
We're tainted by it to a certain point.
Jealousy, greed, anger, so on and so forth.
It's just understanding human and then understanding your own triggers sometimes too.
Being a critical thinker and being able to realize, hey, where is my anger coming from?
Right?

(24:04):
Or inside of the practice room.
I think to a certain point, just that we're on the ego subject right here.
uh For years I had.
I would have aha moments in small incremental growth.
I don't know if incremental is the proper word for that, but small little sections ofgrowth.

(24:26):
And then it would be like flat for a good period of time where it felt as if I was juststaying the same.
And what I realized is when I would come into the practice room now, whether this was thesport of wrestling or going back to wrestling, I think.
Wrestling's a little bit different because everyone's around the same

(24:47):
Age-frame like the guys that you're competing against for the most part around the sameage as you so It's everyone's kind of their the growth spurts are very similar unless
you're doing tons of offseason wrestling ah But for a lot of people Because they're notdoing tons of offseason wrestling some guys are some guys are but like you'll see most

(25:09):
people around similar same levels, but they
Let's say if you're in ninth grade, most ninth graders are on the same and then you getfreaks in nature who are going out and winning states so on and so forth.
But jiu-jitsu is a little bit different.
You can be brute strength uh like a real tough dude, okay?

(25:33):
And get kind of a decent way off of being country strong, okay?
Off of willing your might upon people.
Jiu-Jitsu is kind of different and it takes a while for wrestlers to kind of realize that.
That it doesn't really matter that you're stronger or you have more cardio than a person.

(25:53):
uh
And in wrestling to a certain point, it really was that when we were younger, who's moreof that, especially when we were younger.
Um, right now, I think with the internet age and everything that's happening, that it'sgiven people the ability to have access to much more information.
If you were in a small town area, like I am, um, when I was younger,

(26:19):
All the information wasn't out there, so they didn't want wrestlers going and trainingwith uh the college team in the off season.
They didn't want them training with their high school coach in the off season.
We did that.
We, yeah.
Like when I, yeah, in the, in the early nineties, in the mid nineties, like we, weretraining with college teams as a high school as well.

(26:40):
it was one of those things when where we were inside of New York, they had rules where ahthey didn't want you training with like your high school coach.
And again, this was this was years ago for me.
So they didn't want us training with like we would go to camps.
I would go out to a ton of different stuff.
And my father was was a RIT, one of the college coaches that were over there.

(27:02):
So I would sneak into that room a ton, too.
But technically, like
They didn't want you in the office.
You didn't train with the coach because some of these guys from these smaller schools, soon and so forth, didn't have the access to that, ah to that, the same information that you
would have it and it would give an unfair advantage.
I don't remember the exact stipulations that were behind that.

(27:23):
I apologize.
I probably should have looked it up or if I could even find it, but that's what Iremember.
um I'm sure someone could absolutely tear me apart on that right there.
Again, I'm, I'm speaking.
uh
deal.
It's honestly, it's one of those things where like we all have the memory of like what ourchildhood was and what the rules are.

(27:44):
Yeah.
So it's like we can easily romanticize that.
It's not a big deal.
I think with the access to information right now, uh
What we have is we have a beautiful age compared to a long time ago.
When I first got into Brazilian Jiujitsu or when I was wrestling, I had a limited amountof information because not so much with wrestling, but more with Jiujitsu.

(28:11):
were learning everything from YouTube and we were trying to figure it out.
Even when I was fighting MMA, most of my trainers were
They had a background inside of Muay Thai or they had a background purely in Jiu Jitsu, abackground purely in striking.
But a lot of them never had fought MMA.
And in Jiu Jitsu, the knowledge holders were the Brazilians to a certain point, because welived in East Bum-F okay.

(28:34):
uh We had to figure out everything from Jiu Jitsu.
The beauty of the sport right now is that we have an abundance of information because ofBJJ Fanatics, where you could live in, again, a small town area and not even have a coach.
And you could get one of John Danaher's DVDs and just rep that over and over and overagain.

(28:54):
And that to a certain point, you could become quite proficient in the abundance of theinformation from phenomenal technicians that are out there.
um I think it's also, there's a negative side to that to a certain point, because there'salmost too much information.
And inside of the sport of

(29:15):
jiu jitsu or wrestling or fight and especially new competitors what ends up happening isthey they think that there's such thing as a miracle move and the reality of situation
there isn't so they're constantly looking for the brand new thing the brand new thing andmoving away from the basics and you'll get guys that are brown belts and Brazilian jiu
jitsu that still haven't mastered fundamental uh even black belts I've seen that haven'tmastered the fundamentals of the sport uh

(29:43):
And sometimes we're moving off way over way over yonder and to really advance things orthings that are uh not even stepping at step one.
OK, it's stuff that a brown belt should be learning.
Let's say again, and people are going to have different opinions when it comes to this.
You're learning legs before you learn how to defend the arm bar leg lock, so on and soforth.

(30:06):
And.
When.
A young competitor, the first time that they get a leg lock, something along those lines,excuse me, like a leg lock, then they go, my gosh, I just tapped out a higher belt.
ah Now that's all they want to do.
Blood's in the water.
Okay.
They think that this is the answer to everything.
Now they get to a certain level where these other belts who trained inside of thosefundamental things and were brought up, what I believe to be properly, where they're

(30:32):
shutting them down and now the leg locks aren't working, but they have nothing else insideof their game because they focus too much.
on this advanced things that are right here.
Now you need to have a knowledge of it, but you can't hyper focus in the beginning onsolely this because this is what's when we have to have a broad spectrum to a certain
point, but we shouldn't move on until we are incredibly proficient.

(30:54):
Sometimes we gain too much information.
We know a lot about a bunch of things, we don't, excuse me, but we're not proficient in asmall majority of things.
I, I, and I'm not worried in that.
Right.
they're already doing leg locks.
People don't have strong side controls or they're not good at defense and they're solelyattacking.

(31:18):
I completely agree.
Fundamentals are harder to come by these days.
So just moving back to the, what you had talked about ego kind of inside of the practiceroom.
Um, I think that ego is a, is a, is a big thing.
Uh, for myself, like I said, I had incremental small growths for a really long timebecause my ego was so involved, whether that was inside of the sport of wrestling or even

(31:44):
in Jiujitsu and fight.
then the beginning, when I came to the practice room,
I wanted to win, win, win.
was always about winning.
So all I focused on was my A game.
uh And due to a lot of injuries that ended up happening later on down the road, had, itforced me to, during this time period, I can't do take downs.

(32:05):
All right.
I can't remain on top right here because of the injuries that I had.
So I had to get really good in my B game areas or areas that I wasn't interested in,didn't excite me.
And instead of a long time ago where I had these incremental growths because it wasconstantly working A game, A game, A game when I came into the practice room, I ended up
having massive amount of growth over this past year and a half, two years, because I go inthe practice room and I go, okay, I'm not going to allow my ego to get involved when I go

(32:33):
and I'm rolling here within the room.
I'm comfortable with getting tapped out in these positions that I'm not comfortable withinin order to become proficient in them.
So it doesn't happen later on down the road.
when I get in the competition.
ah So I think the ego to a certain point is big inside of the practice room, but it alsocan be detrimental.
ah I think that the amount of information that we have right now is phenomenal, especiallyfor the people that are in areas where they don't like you're not inside of a big city

(33:04):
that has massive amounts of information because high level guys are probably going to moveto big cities to open up gyms because that's where the money's at or the most the most
money.
Compared to these small areas, think this abundance of information is phenomenal becausenow they can get the same information from these high level people that we couldn't a long
time ago.

(33:24):
But at the same time, summing this up right here, I think it's detrimental to a certainpoint because ah it's too much, especially for the beginning level mind.
Right.
Yeah.
I actually want to keep talking about ego, but I want to talk about it through the lens ofyour full-time job.

(33:46):
You work for the Department of Corrections full-time.
What role does ego play in that job for you?
And how do you keep ego in check when you're working in that kind of correctionsenvironment?
Let me think about this for a second.
Totally.

(34:06):
You can start by just telling anyone who's listening what you do and what your job is, andthen you can tie it back to ego.
So my position, I work for a law enforcement department and I am a correction officerwithin that realm.

(34:28):
ah I'm a drill instructor who deals uh very heavily on the, to a certain point, cognitiveconditioning and uh reforming of behavior when it comes to individuals so that we uh
Great critical thinkers who have the ability to self-reflect on their own actions, ah notact upon their own wants and needs inside of the moment.

(34:54):
ah So hopefully when they get out into the civilian world again, it helps with theirability to be critical thinkers and weigh out the consequences for their actions.
ah It helps with not having them come back to uh the prison system.
ah helps with recidivism.

(35:17):
I'm probably messing that word up right there.
um Sometimes I...
So, uh right.
So...
judicial, like I feel like anybody who says the word judicial immediately sounds a littlebit drunk.
Right, right, right.
Absolutely.
ah So that was my main role ah for a good chunk of time with the law enforcement agencythat I'm with.

(35:43):
ah As of recent, I am a full-time defensive tactics instructor where I work with the uhlead uh HRT team, Hostage Rescue Team.
We're training them inside of defensive tactics, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu.
uh as well as all the recruits that come through the State's Academy.

(36:06):
run that.
Not run that, excuse me.
I'm um one of the lead defensive tactics instructors for the uh prison system.
As well as right now I've been tasked with running the Western training region fordefensive tactics and uh training the uh National Guard who has been deployed to the

(36:29):
who has been deployed to the prison system due to a lack of ah manning for uh the lawenforcement agency.
So I've been tasked with training up as of right now, probably we're about 800 within thepast four months that we've trained up and making them or hopefully getting to them to the

(36:51):
point where they're proficient within the tasks and duties that they have been given to dowithin the prison system.
Yeah.
I think that kind of sums up sums up what I do.
That's, mean, I think that's like fascinating to have that role.
And like, that's why I wanted to ask that question about ego is because if you sit in thatworld where there is like in many ways an us and them of inside the prison system or

(37:19):
dealing with people who are on us and them side, like how do you deal with the ego,keeping the ego out of it and remembering that, you know, we're kind of all humans and we
just have to work on this together, trying to help people.
Yeah, I like that.
uh Human, right?
I'm in the I'm the business of understanding human, right?
And I'm going to bomb this.

(37:42):
It's one of those things if you if you read up on the Stanford prison experiment.
OK.
ah It explains I.
I'm not going to dive too deep into that, into it, but it was something that fascinated mewhile I was in college.
ah And it's basically he.
took two groups uh of Stanford students and one group was the incarcerated, it played theincarcerated individuals and I think it was in one of the sections of Stanford ah in the

(38:15):
basement area.
And they filmed a bunch of it, watched over and basically one group was the incarceratedindividuals, the other group was the, played the guards, I'll say guards within that room
right there.
It got to the point where they had to shut the experiment down because the individualsthat played the guards, the power went to their head real quick.

(38:39):
I think within a few days.
And again, it's been a long time since I've since I've actually looked up on that.
um I think there's a system that had to shut it down because they used and they abusedtheir power.
And it comes back to something that we talked to earlier, uh understanding the humancondition, jealousy, greed, anger, hate.

(39:00):
ah
It's as if we're changed as human beings.
And I think in the Bible or, okay, I'm telling you right now, there's a lot of stuff whereit's like, I'm in the ballpark of it, okay, with technical terms, but uh I'm definitely
not.
But the shining light upon the hill.

(39:21):
uh We're never gonna reach that to a certain point because whatever created us or designedus, the power...
the great spirit or the power that bes um or God uh created us almost to, weself-destruct, we destroy everything for ourselves.
um I think understanding kids when they grow up, want anything.

(39:50):
When you were wrestling inside of high school, what did you wanna be?
You wanna be a college coach or you wanna be a high school coach or something.
You want to be in those roles where you're in charge.
And what happens with people is it has the ability, if unchecked, to go to the head wherewe lose track of ourselves and the desire to keep power and have control.

(40:18):
Again, going back, yeah.
is what I'm trying to get to the, like, you've reached the level of Black Belt inBrazilian Jiu Jitsu, you know how to defend yourself, you've been in combat.
Like, how do you keep that in check on a regular basis?
And how do you teach other people to keep that in check who may not have those tools thatyou've built up over the years of combat and combat sports?

(40:44):
So within the prison system, and I talk to a lot of my recruits that come through or it'sthe guard that comes through, uh I have no desire to really fight with these individuals.
I'm getting older, I'm injured, so on, so forth.
So it comes down to how do I avoid that?

(41:05):
A big thing with that is the ability to ah verbal de-escalation skills and being good atthat.
And in order to be good at that, to a certain point, it's time and it's a lot ofexperience and doing a lot of things wrong.
Uh, and I'll be the first person to tell you I've messed up a lot of things where I lookback on the original way that I tried to keep power and control when it came to, um, the

(41:32):
incarcerated population or even a lot of things that I did in coaching where, um, uh,where, where I cringe when I used to do it.
And I think when you make enough mistakes, you get to the point where.
you realize that you have to be a critical thinker and have the ability to self-reflect.
And I think there's a massive majority of the population that really, I don't know ifthey're born without the ability to do so.

(41:59):
And even no matter how much you try to work with them to get them to the point wherethey're critical thinkers, they'll just possibly never have it.
um But I think in order to be inside of those positions,
that you have to be a critical thinker and you have to recognize where your emotions arecoming through.
And without that ability, you're not gonna be good inside of uh when you're placed insideof leadership positions.

(42:27):
I have to recognize um when I'm being jealous, ah when I'm angry, is that anger or thatjealousy, so on or so forth, coming from a deep rooted issue from the past that I'm.
projecting towards people or because a lot of times when I see people where they'reabusing power or something along those lines, it's coming from a different place.

(42:53):
So I need to recognize my own issues that I have uh mentally, spiritually and be able towrite.
other people to do it, right?
Like I know having spent many years in combat sports that if you don't reconcile that foryourself, you're gonna lose training partners, right?
You'll lose friends, you'll lose training partners.

(43:15):
But it took years of training to get that.
And you don't have years of training with the people you're training.
You have months often or weeks.
Like how do you impart those lessons?
ah How do you teach those things?
Like what are you telling people that helps get them in a better place to be uh hopefullya little bit self-reflective and humane?

(43:39):
A lot of stuff that we touch on very heavy is that our job, we must always remain actinggood faith with reasonable care upon probable cause.
It's kind of like the 10 commandments of corrections.
um yeah, acting in good faith with reasonable care upon probable cause.

(44:02):
All right.
And
Okay.
If you could dispel any uh misconceptions about corrections officers, what would you wantpeople to know?
I think.
Law enforcement.
It kind of is taking the role right now that uh soldiers, when they were coming back fromVietnam, kind of took where as they were getting off the planes, people were spitting on

(44:33):
them, people hated them uh for the things that were happening there.
uh And a lot of those soldiers were forced into those positions that they were doing whenthey were inside of the war um or drafted, so on or so forth.
In the military, it's kind of like go over that hill.
ah When you're told to do something, you go and do it ah to a certain point.

(44:56):
And I think a lot of those people came back and they had this feeling of just incrediblebitterness, ah incredible bitterness because when they came back, they didn't get the
level of respect that they really deserved for going over and fighting for the country.

(45:17):
I think that most law enforcement officers or all the law enforcement officers that I'veknown, when they go into work, the last thing they want to do is to get into a uh use of
force with an individual.
The last thing that they want to do is for things that go bad during that.
And I think that most people go into the profession with incredibly good intentions.

(45:43):
ah And I think that most
uh officers act within the realms, okay, of what their department uh dictates for them todo.
I think within any type of department that there is going to be bad apples.
uh And I think it is the job of the department and the officers within that department toweed those individuals out.

(46:08):
ah So that way they don't bring the department down ah and they don't paint a bad name.
for the individuals, the other individuals, the 99 % that are doing the right thing.
I think you have a lot of law enforcement right now, to a certain point that's bitterbecause they're kind of in the realm that, again, the feeling that a lot of those soldiers

(46:33):
had where society or depending on the state that you're in, have moved very heavily awayfrom them or have a bad perception of them.
The best thing I can say about them, are your sons, these are your daughters, these areyour cousins.
These are guys that are helping out inside of the community with churches, with youthprograms that volunteer a ton of their time.

(46:59):
They're just like anybody else.
They just have been put into a task or a realm that is incredibly, incredibly difficult.
They're still kind, loving individuals just like anybody else, but...
Do you feel as though some of the uh tools that those officers have at their disposal toremove the bad apples, to weed them out like you just referred to, do you feel like the

(47:25):
tools are there for people?
Like they know how to do it, they know how to self uh correct?
I believe that right now we're having to a certain point because some of the bad issuesthat has happened inside of law enforcement or as to come to light uh that we're kind of
having a long a Renaissance inside of law enforcement as a whole where between bodycameras, cameras within the prison system and a reformation, I believe a reforming of

(47:59):
uh the majority of departments that are around the country and the movement that's kind ofhappened inside of the country where um it makes it a lot easier than it was uh at one
time uh in order to get these, excuse me, in order to get officers who uh are notproficient inside of their jobs um out of these departments where they are a liability uh

(48:24):
to fellow officers and to the department as a whole.
So yes, think that ah the direction, right, yeah, right.
feel like I hear that often.
So for somebody from the inside to have that positive view, I think that's actually agreat thing.
Yeah, I think they've I think they've done a very good job where where checks and balancesand they have the ability to keep people uh much more in line or if they do end up messing

(48:54):
up and going outside of the realm of again, acting in good faith with reasonable care uponprobable cause that they have the ability to remove them, remove them from these
departments to a certain point remove.
uh people that are detrimental towards the whole.
Yeah, okay.

(49:14):
That's, mean, it's good to hear that.
Cause I know like to bring it a little bit back to the military.
I know that we in the military had the tools to say, you know, Hey, this person is notnecessarily uh the right kind of person we want as a part of the military.
And then we had, you know, ways to talk to senior officers or bring them through theuniform code of military justice or that thing.

(49:37):
And I know that that was done.
And I just didn't know how available that was for people in law enforcement because themilitary is one large or many large organizations and corrections and law enforcement is a
lot smaller organizations.
there's like county, state, city, towns, there's sheriffs, there's elected officials,there's unelected, and it's a lot more disparate.

(50:01):
So just not really having an understanding as somebody from the outside, like just didn'tknow if those tools existed in the similar fashion.
Well, I think the beauty of technology, okay, and body worn cameras is incrediblybeneficial because you can see everything that's happening within these, um that an

(50:22):
officer is doing throughout the day.
And I think that's beneficial for the officer in case false claims have been made againstthem.
But I also think that it's beneficial to the uh incarcerated individuals or
Same way for people that out on the street because it keeps people...
keeps people from again acting out upon and abusing and abusing their roles of power, butalso for the officers, a majority of the officers that are doing good, um it shows when

(50:55):
there was false accusations that were made against them that they did not do that.
So it's a two way street, it's a double edged blade and I'm incredibly uh optimistic andah I uh am a fan of them.
So personally myself.
Are you also somebody who generally believes that all law enforcement corrections officersshould go through some type of Jiujitsu kind of training?

(51:22):
Do you feel like that should be part of the uh standard operations or standard trainingprocedures?
100 % 100 % I think consistent training with and again I've done Brazil I've done karateI've done boxing I've done um I've done uh excuse me karate boxing kung fu American

(51:47):
kickboxing and jiu-jitsu and I wrestled all the way through high school and college ah Ithink the most proficient thing to train law enforcement is Brazilian jiu-jitsu
I think most departments right now due to being inside of the public spotlight have put inor are now starting to put an incredible uh emphasis on defensive tactics.

(52:16):
And a lot of the defensive tactics uh programs uh around the country are heavily movedaway from a lot of, uh at least when I first got in, it was a lot of keto.
karate, a lot of it dealt with pain compliance.
ah And we have moved heavily, heavily, heavily away from pain compliance, such as pressurepoints, things along those lines.

(52:42):
And then it moved into a heavy, Jiujitsu base uh inside of these defensive tacticsprograms.
For example, uh for my department, we're uh
under DCJS, and we are governed by.

(53:03):
And a lot of that, interesting enough, uh was kind of put together by the original gym outof Jamestown, New York that I trained out of, Kinetics Combat Sports.
And it was, Jay Wadsworth was one of my original black belts, and he runs EFC, uhEffective Fitness Combatives, which is
probably one of the top companies when it comes to defensive tactics inside of the UnitedStates, where they travel teaching different municipalities, so on and so forth.

(53:32):
But the original guys that were out of my gym, it was a very big cop heavy gym, but theywere also uh Jiu Jitsu competitors as well as MMA fighters.
So the beauty of it was, is it was uh law enforcement, state agency professionals, uhlocal professionals.
ah as well as correction officers that were all ah defensive tactics, excuse me, that wereall MMA fighters, Jiu-Jitsu guys, so on and so forth.

(54:01):
And Jay Wadsworth had become very heavy in teaching defensive tactics.
And then to the point where he designed or that gym itself, Jay Wadsworth kind of puttogether the best of both worlds, right?
And that gym right there and was able to take what works inside of
the MMA world and Jiu Jitsu world and bring it over into law enforcement.

(54:25):
And I say a lot of times that policing is its own sport.
I had a guy when I was in New York City, we were working, I also worked for EffectiveFitness Combatants, so I'll drop them inside of there, where we travel around teaching
different municipalities and it's a more advanced version of what we do for DCJS.
Jay Wadsworth basically took that and then he developed the program for DCJS, now governslot of um different departments around uh our state, so on and so forth.

(54:59):
uh getting back to policing is its own sport.
uh I say that a lot of times to my recruits or to the guard and I ask them, well, whatdoes that mean?
I say, well, there's rules and guidelines ah that we have to act upon inside of, if I werewrestling, it has its own rules and guidelines for the sport.

(55:25):
If I was playing basketball, uh even MMA, all right, in the sport of MMA, uh you can'tpunch to the back of head when you're inside of the cage because uh the back of the head
is thinner than the front of the head.
You can't gouge the eyes, you can't rip at the lips, so on or so forth.
Um, just like law enforcement, policing is also its own sport because the reality of thesituation is that what we get paid for is to quell situations with the appropriate amount

(55:54):
of, um, the appropriate amount of force to an individual.
Um, and we, just like another sport has its own, uh, rules and guidelines, law enforcementis the same way.
The last thing you want instead of a use of force is for an incarcerated individual or apolice, excuse me, a person that's out on the street to come out with um broken orbital

(56:19):
sockets, uh the face all black and blue, broken ribs, so on or so forth.
We have to act within the realm of our sport so that way we are not hurting theseindividuals.
So what got put forth by DCJS is more
oh In the midst of the use of force, I get these uh incarcerated individual down to theground uh through lateral head replacement and wrist extractions.

(56:47):
I get their hands behind their back.
We use leg controls but moved very, very heavy away from pain compliance things uh such asmy department.
We do not do chokes within the department.
We do not teach chokes within the department.
uh
And when I talk about rules and guidelines that it's a zone sport, that I have to actwithin the rules of that sport.

(57:13):
So policing, because we're fighting uh or having use of forces on a consistent basisinside of these departments due to the clientele that we work with, we have to act within
the rule sets that the state agencies, so on and so forth, put out for us.
And what was really good about the material that, again, that Jay Wadsworth put forward isthat if these departments are taught within this new age that uh material that has moved

(57:42):
heavily, heavily, heavily away from pain compliance, we should be able to have use offorces with individuals and move heavily away from the injuries that were happening prior.
ah Do I think that?
happen.
Right, yes, absolutely.
And I think right now there is an incredible movement uh that I've seen.

(58:03):
uh And again, I'm traveling around the country on a consistent basis teaching agencies,mostly uh defensive tactics instructors for those agencies themselves, where they are
taking the material from uh EFC effective uh fitness combatives and then working it intotheir department's uh rhetoric.

(58:24):
ah
and we have had tremendous amount of feedback.
Number one, it's a lot more simple.
It has drastically reduced the amount of material that we used to teach for a lot of thesedepartments.
It is heavily focused on Jiujitsu techniques, avoiding heavily, heavily, heavily anythingthat has to do with chokes.

(58:45):
Or, ah but it's more, yes.
walk away with good understanding?
mean, there's a lot of, mean, jiu-jitsu takes a lifetime to put together and you'regetting these people for short amounts of time.
Do you feel like at the end of these uh packaged trainings that they walk out with a goodunderstanding of this?
And are you testing them?

(59:06):
absolutely.
I honestly, I'd say a lot of the purpose in my life right now comes very heavily fromteaching a lot of individuals that will then reach out to you and say, I had this use of
force, whether it was out on the street or whether it was inside of the prison system, andwe were able to quell it and if I did not know this material right here, I would have, it

(59:30):
would have been much, much, much, much worse.
And
How long are those sessions?
How long are these?
Are these like three weeks, six weeks?
So there will be two week sessions as well as I'll do sometimes one week sessions.
um A lot of the individuals that I worked with on traveling for EFC were individuals thatwere already defensive tactics instructors for their departments.

(59:58):
So this is just more of an advanced add-on to the material that they're already teaching.
And then when they, right, and then when they end up going back to the departments, theywork at anywhere they're consistently
ah where they're consistently working with the officers within their departments on aonce, twice a year, so on or so forth.

(01:00:20):
I think it's important for departments to have yearly trainings when it comes to defensivetactics because I had an individual tell me a period of time ago, well, what is muscle
memory?
And probably the easiest way
that it was ever explained to me, because he said it's like you're in the middle of asnowstorm and you got to walk ah from your house out to the car.

(01:00:48):
ah The first time that you walk out, the snow is there, it's difficult to get to your car,you've stepped through it.
Then the next time that you come back to the house, you stuff it down a little bit more,the snow.
Then you go back, forth, back, forth, and then finally you have a trail.
You have a connection between your car and the house that's right there.
Well, it's the same thing when I'm attempting to create muscle memory when it comes todefensive tactics.

(01:01:14):
In order to create proficient uh officers, so on or so forth, uh I have to have consistentyearly training with them because if we're not consistently doing this training and
repping it over and over and over again, then it keeps on snowing outside, right?
And that pathway, what's it going to do?
It's going to fill back up again.

(01:01:34):
And I think that very the same with the electrical connections where we're attemptingagain, I'm no scientist, but create pathways, right?
Where in flight, flight or freeze type of situations, I have ah individuals who revertback to ah what they've been trained and not the spoken language around the world.

(01:01:55):
And what is the spoken language around the world when it comes to fighting?
It's throwing hands, punching, okay?
We don't want that for the most
part inside of use of force situations, if we can utilize uh controlling tactics, bodyholds, leg controls, um lateral head displacement and wrist extractions in order to cuff

(01:02:17):
individuals up, we should have the ability to avoid that like crazy.
But if we do not have consistent, consistent training, ah what will happen is thosepathways that we worked into those individuals minds, they will end up losing it.
Now, I talk to a lot of my individuals that I do training with and a lot of theseindividuals have come from backgrounds also that I work with and I'm training.

(01:02:46):
Your question that you asked earlier, uh do I think that it works that they are able totake it in a two week period?
Yes, I do to a certain point, especially if an individual we're training to the commonman.
Okay, I'm not training to uh someone like you who's uh brown belt inside of BrazilianJiujitsu and has an extensive mixed martial arts background.

(01:03:09):
My goal within that time period is to train fundamental positions, especially for what Ido within my law enforcement agency, fundamental positions that the common man can
understand.
And then it should be able to work against a individual uh
who does not have an extensive martial arts background.

(01:03:30):
Okay, do I believe the individuals that I'm training that they're gonna go out and be ableto now be a master against somebody who has an extensive background like you or me?
No, absolutely not, right?
When they have a use of force with them.
ah But do I think that they will be proficient if they have no background and they aremuch more proficient when they end up leaving the trainings that we have done for them?

(01:03:53):
Yes, absolutely.
We also give them
looking at it.
Right.
A core curriculum.
uh We give them a core fundamental curriculum that is very easy to understand.
Now, where a lot of these individuals fail is that, and I tell everybody this at the endof my sessions, I say,

(01:04:16):
I always respect individuals that are masters within the realm.
Okay.
There are subjects that I'm incredibly, incredibly uninterested within.
Okay.
But like even jobs, certain jobs that people do.
uh I have buddies, they are computer uh wizards.

(01:04:38):
All right.
I am completely inept when it comes to computer systems.
You're lucky I was able to log on right here.
Okay, I checked it last night actually.
Yeah, I checked it last night to see if I could do it and I'm like, all right, I got it.
After like an hour later.
But when you're a master within your realm, I don't care if you're working the Burger Kingdrive-through, right?

(01:05:05):
If you know everything about that subject right there, now it interests me and you'repassionate about it.
Okay, I tell these.
this podcast for me is being able to talk to people who are experts at what they do.
Like my thesis was, if you've made it to black belt in Jiujitsu, you either have thestupidity and stubbornness of someone who can stick with something for a long time, or you

(01:05:26):
understand how to learn and how to apply it in ways that are unique to you and your skillset.
And if you can do that in one realm, my thesis is that you can do it in another.
And so that's my, my assumption is when I'm talking to people is that they can
They have found those other passions in life and have excelled at them and maybe they'renot black belts in something else, but they're probably brown belts at least.

(01:05:48):
Right.
Yeah, absolutely.
um When.
Absolutely, you know, getting back to kind of just finishing that thought right there, youknow, experts within the realm.
tell these guys, OK, you've done this training right here.
All right.
But now what ends up happening again when it comes to muscle memory, do you think thatyou're going to be proficient inside of a flight flight or freeze type of scenario?

(01:06:14):
OK, when you're inside of a use of force and it possibly.
because when I teach something similar, I always say fight, flight, freeze, or fawn,right?
I always give four.
Is there a reason, like I know some people call it fight or flight, some people say fight,flight, or freeze.
Is there a reason that you don't have fawn in there, like fight, flight, freeze, or fawn?

(01:06:35):
to me, I've actually never heard fawn.
So explain to me what you mean by fawn.
we know it's, know, somebody throws something at you, you throw something back.
uh Flight, somebody throws something, you run.
Freeze, somebody throws something and you stand there and you don't do anything.
And fawn is you just kind of, you have the wherewithal, but you cover up.

(01:06:58):
Like you don't do anything back, but you know to cover up and not fight back.
Because at that point, you're not freezing, you're not fighting, and you're not running.
but you're doing something, you're active, and your peace of mind, your frame of mind toreact to what's coming at you in a way that you are defending yourself but not
re-engaging.
So it's not fighting.

(01:07:19):
So that's why I've always said fight, flight, freeze, or fawn.
And I haven't heard that from you who teaches it and clearly knows this thing.
So I was curious if that was a way you've thought about it or maybe not, it doesn't makesense.
um It does make sense.
And to be honest with you, I'd like to, that's something I'd have to think on for a littlewhile.

(01:07:42):
The fawn, fawn, you said, correct?
We do touch on a lot when it comes to smaller individuals ah with bad team mobilityangles, engage, disengage.
uh
and engaged in transition.

(01:08:05):
part of...
disengaging to a certain point in in MADT would be that there may be certain times whereI'm being overwhelmed and I have to go to a certain position where I keep myself from
taking any further damage, such as I pulled the guard and I held that individual close tome right here, which will uh limit or mitigate the amount of damage that individual is

(01:08:33):
doing to me.
Yep.
I think to a certain point, I cover it in other realms when I'm teaching it, ah but I'venever used the abbreviation of uh Fawn.
ah But I do like it.
And now I'm gonna sit on it I'm gonna think about it for a little while and I might startusing it in my own thing to be honest with you because I think it does work.

(01:08:55):
right.
Because it's one of the reactions, you know, if somebody has the presence of mind todefend themselves, but not fight back, there's a there's a there should be a word for
that.
That is one of the options that can happen if somebody gets attacked in the same way thatthey could punch back or run or freeze.
So that's Yeah, I don't know where I heard it or where I but that's the one I've beenteaching for the last however many years I've been teaching self defense.

(01:09:21):
Right.
I, and maybe I heard it sometime before, but, uh, and then it's always like, when you havea Jiujitsu guy and you've showed them the same move that you've been working with like a
hundred times, then they go find it online and they go, I want to show you this new thingthat I, that I just learned.
you're like, mother jumper.
I've showed you that a thousand times.
Now it comes from Gordon Ryan, right?

(01:09:42):
And now all of a sudden it's gone because it came from the God's mouth.
Um, so maybe I've heard it before and now I've heard it from you the first time and.
Yeah, I'm actually going to bring that back to some of my guys uh and pick that apart andpossibly work that into some of the stuff that we're talking about.
uh Bringing it back with these guys, I think I take when someone is a subject matterexpert within their realm.

(01:10:07):
And within this realm of policing, right, if you are not proficient or law enforcement,excuse me, uh if you are not proficient,
within your realm when it comes to use of force, when we have to go hands on, okay?
If you are not an asset inside of that, then you are a liability, um is what I always endup telling these individuals, you are a liability.

(01:10:31):
And kind of the way there's certain individuals, when we teach this information to them, Imay have one individual that does the lateral head displacement when it comes to the head.
I have another individual that is doing
the wrist extractions.
I may have another individual that is proficient in doing the legs, right?

(01:10:51):
But they all need to be proficient inside of each one of those realms right there when Iam attempting to handcuff an individual up.
uh And what happens when we run scenarios, you'll see a lot of individuals, uh they'reokay at one thing, but they're not okay at the other.
When we were inside of Afghanistan,

(01:11:13):
I was attached to, and I know we'll probably touch a little bit more on it here in alittle bit, but it relates to this right here.
I was a mortar man and I was attached to special operations inside of the country in theEastern part near the mountains.
And we would run whatever missions that they wanted to run.

(01:11:35):
But when we would come in on the helicopter in the middle of the night, we would come outand we would create our half moon.
When we were coming on the Chinook, we'd create our half moon, whole security, and thenthe helicopter would uh take off.
Well, a lot of times what mortar men would do is they would leave, uh if you were carryingthe mortar system, okay, on your one shoulder, you'd leave it on one shoulder.

(01:11:58):
So when I got off of that helicopter and I came out and I possibly, the chances that afirefight engaged right off the bat, if I were to get domed inside of the head,
One of the other mortar men that were out there with me or one of the other guys that wereproficient inside of the mortar system would have the ability to take the bag off of my
back and keep moving on.

(01:12:19):
Okay.
And the mission would continue.
All right.
If my other mortar men that were with me were not proficient inside of the realm of uhbeing a assistant gunner, being an ammo bearer or being a gunner.
Okay.
Then we don't have a mission anymore.
We have the inability to be an asset on the battlefield.

(01:12:41):
If we all just knew he only knows this piece, he only knows this piece, he only knows thispiece.
um So I have equate that very similar to what we teach to these individuals or a lot oftimes when law enforcement gets to the point where they go, now I'll never need to know
that, or you push it off to tomorrow.
No, I'm good enough, I'm good enough or something.
If you are not proficient inside of the legs, proficient inside of the head, proficientwith getting this behind the back,

(01:13:07):
Let's say in the midst of the use of force, I got knocked out, okay, by an incarceratedindividual or somebody that's out on the street.
Let's say I was shot, let's say this thing right here, it must go on and you must beproficient inside of the realm and you must know my piece.
And that comes down to being an expert inside of your craft.
Whatever you are, think Abraham Lincoln said it, whatever you are, be a good one, okay?

(01:13:28):
Be a good one at it.
And I think...
A lot of times when I go and I teach a lot of these individuals, some of the people that Iend up teaching more on a low level, not actual defensive tactics instructors already.
They are quite resistant if they have no interest inside of the combatives realm or thedefensive tactics realm.

(01:13:50):
But my father always told me when I was younger, what comes from the heart resonates withthe heart.
ah And I love this.
This is a passion for me.
And I think I have the ability a lot of times that even if you're uninterested in itoriginally, by the time you're done, ah you are quite interested within the realm or at
least you see the need to be proficient within the techniques that we are showing.

(01:14:13):
ah I think that.
like really being able to have your passion come through for something you teach,especially when it's with something to somebody who doesn't really maybe want to
participate in it.
The fact that you can do that, that says a lot about you.
I think that's a really positive thing to know and to feel.

(01:14:33):
Sometimes law enforcement departments are...
I think there was a incredible movement at one time that we had.
I'm again, not to get political on any side where it was a defund the police, all right,that gained some momentum.

(01:14:55):
I think the downside to that is that to a certain point in some departments, we alreadyhave departments around the country that are under trained in their ability when it comes
to
defensive tactics or to quell situations with appropriate amount of use of force.

(01:15:15):
Again, acting good faith with reasonable care upon probable cause.
oh And when, if anything, these departments that are unproficient within that realm uhneed more uh financing and the ability to uh more time to be able to train to create uh

(01:15:38):
proficient officers and officers who have the ability to, again, goes back to that thing,critically think, right?
a big part of defund the police, or at least the way I always understood it, wasn'tnecessarily that it was always that the police were bad.
I think it was also, hey, we should use the money, or the money should be used towardsthings like uh supporting the mental health crisis, uh which would help get a lot of the

(01:16:06):
people off the streets that were uh causing some of the police problems.
Or you put some of that money towards uh poverty.
or homelessness, and that would also reduce the, it's not, I don't think that anybody wassaying that like, or maybe they were, but my understanding was always, it's not just that
the police can be a problem, it's that we are not putting money towards the root causes,just the symptoms, and the symptoms and the police then have fewer tools at their

(01:16:37):
disposal, because they're not being trained well, or sufficiently in all cases, when inreality, if you put toward,
put the money towards some of the root problems like poverty, like the mental healthcrisis, like homelessness, then the problems that the police would run into would be
reduced.
Yeah, I'm in I'm in I'm in agreeance when it comes that more money has to be put towardsdefinitely uh mental health inside of the United States um for sure.

(01:17:09):
And we could probably honestly go down a rabbit hole where we talk about that for
three more hours, but interesting.
I tell everybody I'm a moderate rooted in reality.
ah I am neither Republican um nor am I Democrat.
um Honestly, I'd say my political beliefs would probably ride somewhere along the lines ofa John Kennedy era Democrat, where I believe in progressive things and I'm always open up

(01:17:38):
to.
I'm not gonna dive too deep into that, but I am, I think the truth consistently on allmanners for the most part lies somewhere in the center.
And a lot of times that's where I also lie.
um And for most people, like this is an interesting conversation.

(01:18:01):
Again, going back to the human condition.
Because we're tainted by these human emotions, a lot of the conversations that we havewhen it comes to people, I could talk to you for hours, right?
But a lot of conversations that I have with people, it's heavily, heavily rooted withinemotion.

(01:18:22):
And it's rooted in theory, rooted in emotion.
And sometimes when we're yelling about things that were unknowledgeable, unknowledgeablewithin.
I always tell people I...
you you had told me like off camera that you were a bit of a failed filmmaker and likefilmmakers jobs are to kind of expose these things or show these kinds of emotions like I

(01:18:48):
mean is that where this came from was you being able to see all sides or tell a story isthat like why you were you know you were getting into the filmmaking thing.
um I think in general, it's about asking questions, right?
A lot of times it doesn't answer the question, it asks the question.

(01:19:09):
ah
is the reason I'm able to ask questions, are you saying, or to see both sides, thingsalong that, I think ah very heavily kind of comes from, ah I was uh probably a behavioral
issue kid when I was younger.

(01:19:30):
And I always questioned everything.
I wasn't a bad kid, right?
But I always questioned everything.
At the same time, my father ah was very big on...
while we could go down a wormhole with this right here, I think probably deep rooted whatbegan it was my, when I was younger, my mother's side was Catholic, and then my father's

(01:19:56):
side was Jewish.
ah So I was raised inside of a household where I always tell people I got the worst ofboth worlds when it comes to guilt.
All right, so.
Every action, if I turn left, I feel guilty.
If I turn right, I feel guilty.
I was raised kind of inside of that environment.
Yeah, 100%.
I got, it was a lot.

(01:20:18):
So then and what happened inside of the Holocaust to a certain point that was veryprevalent in the area that I grew up in.
I have very, some of my best friends, their grandparents were inside of the Holocaust.
So I think it was very good on questioning things.

(01:20:38):
very big in the culture that you grew up on, on questioning things.
ah Because we come from a people to a certain point that were, um because they, theydidn't see it or the writing on the wall.
Some did, some did, don't get me wrong, and I'm not trying to disrespect them at all.
um Because they didn't question or they didn't push back to a certain point while thegoing was still good to, in order to do so.

(01:21:05):
ah
catastrophic things ended up happening.
And it really wasn't their fault, but I don't know if that comes across well where being acritical thinker is incredibly important because in calling out or recognizing when things
are going above and beyond or even inside of my own profession right there, when am Ilosing my humanity?

(01:21:31):
Okay, is a really big thing.
When am I getting to the point where I'm starting to see
individuals as a law enforcement professional more as numbers and forgetting that theseare humans that are in front of me.
And I think it's really important again, coming back to the ability to self reflect uponyour own actions in order to avoid that and not be at the point where you are using and

(01:21:55):
abusing the powers ah that you get because it's very easy for power to go to people'sheads.
Does that does that kind of come across?
Well, the things that I'm saying right here, right?
can see that and I can hear that in what you're saying.
I was just curious if that went into why you got into filmmaking, like what, know, like isthat what you were trying to bring out within people was show people the truth?

(01:22:20):
I think originally I wanted to, when it came to film, I did a lot of acting as a kid.
I did theater, I did improv, so on and so forth.
And then when I ended up going to college, during that time period, I kind of did bothworlds.
I've never really had something that defines me or this is my group.
I've always kind of been an outsider where I have a bunch of different interests when itcomes to things.

(01:22:43):
I was also wrestling when I was younger.
So when I went to college, ah I was never really, I was always artsy.
ah And I was never really a fan of math.
So I didn't want a major that had math inside of it.
At the same time, I wanted to go to school for acting.
And my father was real big on, are not going to school for acting.

(01:23:03):
excuse me, I wanted to be a filmmaker, right?
ah At the same time, I think I originally went because I wanted to be a war photographer.
ah And who knows, I may end up doing that eventually down the road too.
Probably when I end up retiring, I'll end up going over.
I still want to check that box right there.

(01:23:24):
I went to college for, yeah, 100 percent.
me when I was in Iraq and it was very intense, like the kind of conversations I would havewith him, like what does he want out of this?
What are we trying to do?
Like that is a very intense role to be a war photographer.
Right, yeah, absolutely, absolutely.

(01:23:45):
I a guy that was embedded with us in Afghanistan.
And you can tell it is mentally uh wearing, it is mentally wearing, especiallyconsistently going over to war and attaching to these units that are getting after it.
And you're documenting and you can't do anything about it.
Like you are, you know, if something happens to that unit, you can barely support, youknow, that's not your job.

(01:24:11):
And it was like, it was an interesting thing to talk to him about how he reconciled these,these ideas in, you know, for himself.
It was, was in many ways like talking to how a chaplain sits inside of a unit.
They're like, Hey, there's only a certain amount that I can participate in support, butthat's not my job.
I'm here to do something else.
right, absolutely.

(01:24:32):
That would make a good podcast if you ever get a hold of him and have him on or something.
I find those guys fascinating.
uh
him after, after like we, was embedded with us for I think maybe three or four months.
And then after that, I didn't really, I didn't get a chance to, to reconnect with him.

(01:24:53):
Yeah, getting into that was I wanted to be a war photographer.
uh Then when I started going to college for it, it turned in I want to be a uh filmmakerand tell stories.
And then, you know, I think I went to college for the most part, though, looking back onit.

(01:25:16):
I wouldn't have went to college for the same thing again, because I think when it comes toespecially filmmaking, you can become very proficient, especially with the modernization
of technology or modern technology, where you can be proficient or possibly even betterwithout even going to college for that realm right there.

(01:25:38):
Yeah.
Again, if you go to a University of Southern California or something, that's probably aphenomenal film school.
All right.
But can I learn those things by learning on the job?
And that's at the same time with a lot of college profession, uh or sorry, a lot of thingsthat people are going to college for, even law enforcement to a certain point is loosening

(01:25:59):
on the standards when it comes to law enforcement due to the undermanning that a lot ofthese departments have right now.
ah But a lot of these realms can teach you how to be proficient within that realm rightthere once you end up getting on the job with the trainings that they do.
And I think a lot of that with art too.

(01:26:22):
If someone came up to me right now when it comes to art and they said, hey, ah I want togo to college for art, I'd be like, no, no, go, go, go for, I don't even know.
I'm not even going to say it right here because it would be ignorant.
And again, sometimes I don't like talking about things that.
I'm not super knowledgeable on.
It's just more out of feeling.

(01:26:42):
Or a lot of guys that I see that are incredible amounts of for going to school forsomething that now they're working at the, nothing against butcher shop guys, okay, but
they're working at the cold cut counter and you have a degree that you're, yep.
here in that they charge exorbitant amounts of money for school.
Like where I live in Germany, can, you school is, university is subsidized.

(01:27:06):
So you don't leave in egregious amounts of debt.
Like that's a very uniquely American thing for the most part.
That's not, it is.
it's a business or even the loans that they're giving out to individuals for it, theinterest rates that are on those loans that when you're young, you think that you're

(01:27:26):
invincible, right?
You think that you're going to, I'll be able to do this.
I'm going to be the 1 % of whatever profession that I end up going into.
I'm going to make the money.
And then you're paying off student loans for 30, 40 years.
it's really sad.
Yeah.
tell me, is there, is there like any piece of advice that you kind of just wish everybodyknew that, you know, you've had clearly like tons of experiences both in, you know, the

(01:27:50):
military and law enforcement and martial arts?
Like, is there anything that you want everyone to know?
when it comes to when it comes to Brazilian Jiujitsu or
I mean, bringing it back to your original comment right there that you dove into.
Not comment, your original question when it comes to the belts.

(01:28:13):
At end of the day, these belts don't mean that much.
It's a nice level of recognition.
But.
It's the journey that means everything.
We're always looking for that end goal.
I need to be that black belt.
need to be that black belt.

(01:28:34):
people want to reach that as quick as possible.
But it's about the pain, the suffering, the good times, the bad times of everything that'sin between in the moment of now.
Okay.
Looking back on it, that's really the most important uh part of the sported Brazilian JiuJitsu and the, the, the, uh,

(01:28:55):
relationships that you build along the way.
I think.
That's the beauty of the sport.
What's happening inside of the moment.
What's down the road, my black belt right now, it doesn't, it's great to have, but itdoesn't mean that much to me.
Looking back on it, I was always looking to, I need to win this next thing.

(01:29:18):
I need to win this next thing.
I want to win this next thing.
And it was that moment that was really beautiful.
And if you have the personality like me, where, oh
you're obsessive about things or you have that adrenaline adrenaline type of junkie.
Okay.
You always think to yourself, hopefully I just reached this point where I win this thingor I do this thing inside of my life um where then I'm to be able to let it go.

(01:29:45):
I'm to be able to let it go.
uh And that will be good enough.
And that's if you have that personality, let me tell you the truth.
That's never going to happen.
It's always on to the next thing.
It's always on to the next thing.
Okay.
Well,
I want more of this, I want more of this.
um So where's the beauty inside of the sport?
It's the relationships you find along the way, it's the journey along the way.

(01:30:09):
And that's my personal opinion.
just touching on it real quick, touching on it real quick, in the past four years, I'vehad three major surgeries, okay?
I've had hip reconstruction, um
On my left hand side, I had an ACL reconstruction.

(01:30:32):
Again, on my left hand side, and I just three weeks ago had uh two disc replacementsinside of my neck.
ah Even, geez, nice, nice.
You had the disc replacements or?
Okay.
had uh the titanium plate put on my C4, C5.

(01:30:54):
Oh, wow.
Along the along the way.
You know, you're always looking to win this, looking to win this, looking to win this.
And again, my background is heavy, heavy, heavy inside a competition.
And now reflecting on it.
I don't care about winning.
I don't care about losing.

(01:31:15):
I just want the ability for good health to get out there and do what I love doing.
And that's competing beyond the map.
OK, and and and
You don't recognize when you're young.
When you're young, you think you're invincible.
When you have a lot of things that end up happening to you or even for you or I, likeinside of the war, you realize that we are quite, ah we are quite, ah I'm looking for the

(01:31:42):
best word for this.
We are quite vulnerable, fragile, right?
We're meat and bones ah in the end of the day and.
It's the journey that's absolutely beautiful.
And focus on the now and the moment that you're in because life is short.

(01:32:02):
Life is short.
That's a really beautiful sentiment.
eh What eh are you excited for in the future now that you're like trying to focus more onthe journeys?
As I said in the beginning of this conversation, I'm a walking contradiction of myself,okay?
I am genuinely, uh my neck feels better than it's felt in years right now, when I'm onlythree weeks out from this surgery.

(01:32:28):
I'm just really looking back to, uh or excited about getting back to competing.
And as much as I say, don't worry about the winning or losing, all right, easier said thandone, okay?
I'm going to try to remain within that realm too.
Once I get back to competition, uh my big thing or my goals for this year is I would loveto, if I can uh do NoGi worlds and uh also do the ADCC uh East coast trials to go and

(01:32:59):
compete inside of that and just get back to train.
I'm really happy and get around the people that I love.
Right.
Cause this has been a, this has been a
This has been a little bit of a bummer, but such is life, right?
In pain you find suffering and suffering you find, what is that?
In suffering you find truth and truth you find peace to a little bit.

(01:33:21):
It's the trivialities and the hard things in life that give you the time to becomespiritually and mentally strong up here.
I think we're in this realm because of the movies, know, life is not a rocky story.
Yeah.
I think that everybody thinks that, you know, why we try to judge ourselves on others orwe think that my life should be like the movie.

(01:33:45):
Well, that's that's just not the nature of the beast.
You know, there's a lot of suffering inside of it and and being able to accept that andembrace it.
Right.
It's important.
I think that's a good place to kind of wrap this up.
Is there anything that you'd like to promote?
No, to be honest with you, not really.

(01:34:06):
You know, if you want to check me out, I have a bunch of stupid Instagram videos.
We're just funny videos on a free BJJ, F-R-E-E-D, BJJ.
And you can check me out there.
So, all right, excellent.
Yes, sir.

(01:34:27):
Yeah, thank you.
Thank you.

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Dylan Freedman, Black Belt, Corrections Officer Trainer, Combatives Trainer - Beyond the Belt #26

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Dylan Freedman, Black Belt, Corrections Officer Trainer, Combatives Trainer - Beyond the Belt #26