September 26, 2025 • 62 mins
This is a conversation with Heidi Cheng, a black belt out of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA. Heidi is a Fashion Engineer and Technical Designer, a seamstress, and a reclaimer of goods.
Episode Links:
* Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hi.im_heidi
* Beltchecker: https://www.beltchecker.com/profile.php?id=45315
* LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/heidi-cheng-449792a/
* Training Academy: "The Jiujitsu Company" - https://www.instagram.com/thejiujitsucompany
* Decorative Embroidery: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sashiko
* Mending Pottery with Gold: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kintsugi
Contact:
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Outline:
00:00 Intro
00:17 Journey to Black Belt
01:18 Heidi's Seminar
06:58 Discovering the Love for Jiu-Jitsu
12:49 Advice for Women in Jiu-Jitsu
17:58 Overcoming Challenges in Training
20:10 The Joy of Learning and Problem Solving
23:11 Crafting and Creativity Beyond the Mat
26:54 Getting into Sewing
35:03 The Role of a Technical Designer
39:32 Navigating Challenges in Fashion Design
42:22 Seeing Your Work in the Real World
44:31 Transitioning to 3D Design
47:00 Personal vs. Professional Sewing
48:58 The Pursuit of Perfection
52:10 Embracing New Hobbies
56:27 Life Advice: Stick with It
01:02:19 Outro
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:18):
Hey, Heidi, thanks for being here.
Hi Eric.
Tell me, what was it like for you to get your black belt?
surreal.
I think that when I started, I didn't even really understand how serious jiu-jitsu peoplewere about the sport.
I just thought I was going to take some basic classes, learn a few moves, get someexercise, and then go home.
(00:41):
And I remember viewing, oh, these are the black belts as...
unreachable.
That was a skill that I could not comprehend even touching.
And I remember the day that I got it, it was kind of like, well, I'm here now.
(01:02):
Now what?
You know, I didn't really understand how much I could still learn.
Did it feel real in that moment or were you just like, uh sort of stunned at the existenceof it around your waist?
Well, the way that my school did it was they kind of gave me about a month heads up thatit was going to happen because they wanted to make it a whole seminar event thing where,
(01:27):
you know, I taught a few things that I'd been working on and then they'd give me the beltin front of everybody.
So that month of prior work made it real.
I definitely took that month when they kind of said, was like, yeah, they're not going todo it.
That's not going to happen.
(01:48):
But then, you know, the day shows up and everybody's in the room staring at you waiting togive a speech.
It's like, oh, yeah, no, okay, I'm here now.
This is real.
So it took me a while, but I got there.
By the time it actually happened, it was on my waist.
Yeah, was, I was, it was real.
What?
What'd you teach?
(02:08):
Like what was the move you taught or moves?
okay, so the way that my gemlists do this is they want you to pick a project that you arebad at, a technique you don't know, a move that you would like to get better at, something
that's not a strength that becomes a strength.
And I did something I don't recommend people do in that situation, which was I wanted toget better at doing an escape.
(02:35):
from the bottom of side control, which is the worst position to get stuck in.
So I did an underhook escape.
ah It was painful.
was something that, originally I was like, oh, I want to do something really cool.
want to do a flashy submission.
I want to look cool.
But that's just not what I needed.
(02:56):
That was not my biggest weakness.
was getting out of bottom of side control was something that I really wanted to get betterat.
And then I started talking to some of my teammates.
you know, lower belt or whatever and they're like, no, teach it, I need that too.
so I just went with it I'm really glad I did it but it was a bottom side control escape.
(03:19):
There's nothing wrong with that.
I mean, I'm personally somebody who likes basics and likes focusing on them.
So I feel like that's a really good thing.
Did you have to talk to any of the instructors to like validate that?
Like did they have to approve your choice of thing?
think they did have a say, but they didn't reject it.
(03:40):
And I definitely talked to them through along the way.
This had been a long-term project of mine to get proficient at that specific technique ofgetting underhooked and sliding out and taking the back.
uh So I'd been kind of talking them through it periodically, being like, okay, I'm stuckat this point and I've exhausted
(04:02):
all options that I can think of, do you have any ideas?" So they kind of knew what I wasworking on along the way.
uh But yeah, they were fully aware of what I was working on and were like, yeah, you'dneed to work on that.
Is this something that you just avoided because you weren't getting in bottom side controlor did you uh just constantly get stuck there because it's a skill of the gym?
(04:29):
Like why were you particularly bad at this thing?
Well, I was specifically trying to work on the underhook escape version where you slideout the bottom because it's a lot less energy than elbow escaping out or hip bumping out
or reverse rolling.
(04:50):
And I just felt like I always struggled with some of the other techniques and theunderhook version was not one that I'd ever really experimented with before.
So when I was asking
other people, know, what's the technique that seems to work for you?
Or if you have another suggestion, because why not?
That was the one that came up.
(05:13):
And it was difficult because I basically would mean I would work on the technique and thenI would go to Open Mat and just go to my partner being like, can we start inside control?
And just spitting the words out to let a person pin me on the ground.
in worst possible position and then try to fight my way out for like a year was reallyterrible.
(05:36):
But I use that technique all the time.
It honestly changed the way I move in a lot of other positions of being able to find theangle to just shoot myself out and pivot around people.
So ah I had other ways of getting out, know, like could like elbow escape or whatever, butI just didn't feel like I was as good as I wanted to be.
(05:59):
Yeah.
yeah, if somebody that was particularly good at pinning you pins me, it would be just, I'mgonna die here.
This is where I'm gonna die for the rest of my life.
This is where I'm gonna be.
I just, you know, the way out is through.
You gotta do it.
So that's what I did.
I'm a person, I mean, I come from wrestling.
(06:20):
for me, underhooks is always like one of the first things I try to get no matter what spotI'm in.
And so if somebody gets me the first thing I'm doing, even subconsciously is grabbing forthat underhook.
So it's, it's in general, quite difficult to hold me down.
So I didn't even think about that being a challenge, but now that you say it, if youhaven't been a person who sticks to underhooks as like a core part of your game, you will
(06:45):
struggle getting out on a regular basis.
yeah, it was terrible.
Especially if I go against a wrestler.
oh
I wanna, I wanna swing back to something you said about like why you started jujitsu.
You said you just thought you were gonna get exercise.
Of all the things to just do and get exercise, being around a bunch of sweaty people inspandex or pajamas does not feel like the easiest way to get, uh frankly, just get
(07:15):
exercise.
Like what, what made you choose jujitsu and what made you kind of stick with it?
Cause that feels like a very long road to.
exercise.
Well, like I said, I didn't really realize how long the road would be or how high levelyou can take it or how many steps you're gonna go.
I actually originally didn't start, my jujitsu beginning didn't really start like I amgoing to do jujitsu and I'm gonna get black belt.
(07:42):
It started at a regular gym that was like CrossFit and then self-defense classes.
And it actually started with
couple classes there that were groundwork because, know, for self-defense, they justthought that you needed to get comfortable with being on the ground, especially as a
(08:03):
woman.
You just want to, you know, don't want to freak out.
You want to have focus and think about things you can do.
So that's actually where I kind of had a taste for what it was like to grapple.
And then that was actually, I lived in Ohio before I was in Philadelphia.
And then when I moved to Philadelphia, I realized there was actually a
(08:23):
jujitsu specific school near me, so I figured I'd try it out because I always reallyenjoyed the grappling classes.
I was kind of interested to see how far I could go.
But even then, I still didn't really realize how intense it could get.
ah But, you know, you get the bug, and then suddenly it's less about the exercise and moreabout trying to figure out the thing, trying to figure out the puzzle.
(08:51):
And I'm still doing it.
So it is the puzzle for you.
Yeah, definitely.
You know, trying to figure out, I can't do this thing.
I know it's possible.
So and I there's been a lot of things that over the years, I know that if I work on atechnique long enough, a year or two or more, I will get there.
(09:14):
There's been things that I never thought I'd be able to pick up that now I can, because Ijust kept grinding them out for a very long time.
And
there's a very satisfied feeling of being able to naturally fall into that movement.
What is that?
Like what is the thing that was the hardest for you to pick up?
I mean, are you gonna, I would be surprised if you say the elbow escape from side control,but in general, what was it?
(09:38):
uh Well, okay, the first one.
The first one, I remember the very specific move that made me realize how nuanced Jujutsucould be, for example.
And this is more of a fast one would be, the triangle.
I remember when I first learned it as a self-defense thing before I got really serious.
(09:58):
was, trap your partner's head and leg, uh sorry, head and arm with your legs and thensqueeze.
And I remember being like, this is terrible.
I can't ever do it.
This doesn't make any sense.
You know, they're never tapping.
And then, um, started getting lessons, you know, from a more serious school and teachingabout how you just shift your angle so you can, you know, chop more into the, the cartoid
(10:24):
with your thigh.
And it was like that.
And I remember thinking, my God, this is what jujitsu is.
That's so cool.
So stuff like that.
But I remember the first move that I.
I remember the first class at the Jiujitsu school with a gi on, the whole shebang.
The first move that we did was a collar choke, like an axe choke from bottom of clothesguard.
(10:48):
I don't think I was able to consistently pull off the gi choke with the grips.
I couldn't figure out the grips.
I couldn't fall into it until at least a blue belt.
Like I just struggled to find the place.
I remember thinking, well, I guess I'm more of an armbar person because I can't do it.
And now it's like my favorite submission.
(11:08):
I love Gi chokes, you know what mean?
And then there's always been benchmarks along the way that are like that.
Yeah, I don't think I understood cross-collar chokes until like late purple belt, earlybrown belt.
So I get that.
But can you now, do you like, it was weird how was like, you couldn't, I couldn't atleast, I just couldn't adjust my hand to fit to where it needed to be to just snap down.
(11:34):
But now it just comfortably falls in with the muscle memories.
Very comfortable.
very bad wrists that I got from years of striking.
And so for me, gi chokes are particularly difficult.
If I don't get the angle exactly, my wrists will hurt for like a week.
So I'm like very careful.
So if I get it, I get it.
(11:55):
But if I don't get it, I will let it go rather than making the adjustments that I wouldnormally make.
And I won't even try things like, uh
like baseball bat chokes or something or Ezekiel chokes in very specific ways.
like literally I'm worried about being in pain and not being able to like type or teach orsomething like that.
So, but I, but when I get it, it's, very tight.
(12:18):
Like when I get it, it's like, I nailed it.
Cause I know it's like, okay, I'm not risking my own health or pain thresholds for this.
Yeah, like for the next week.
One move is not worth paying for the next week.
Yeah, for sure.
would, I've actually, I've made such mistakes while trying to get Gi chokes that I'vetapped when I'm the one applying the submission.
(12:41):
Cause I'm like, okay, stop, stop, this hurts.
Yeah.
Like I'm wrapped up!
I can't!
I think I've twisted myself up!
Yeah, for sure.
You're a woman who got into this and stuck with it.
Like, what do you think is good advice for women?
Because I feel like this is not this doesn't get talked about the way I really hope thatit would like what do you think is a good piece of advice for women who are like, you
(13:03):
know, on the fence about it or they've started and they can't decide to stick with it.
I mean, the first advice is, regardless of gender, is you have to want to do it.
You know what I mean?
Some people I feel like...
They like it because maybe they saw it on TV or something, but they don't actually likethe rolling.
(13:25):
They don't like the training.
They don't like wrestling with people being that close.
So it's kind of like, well, you have to like the sport.
But those that do, they have every right to be there.
I have every right to be there than my male counterparts.
know what I mean?
uh
(13:46):
And for the most part, think I've had a very positive experience with supportive trainingpartners.
I feel like when I see newer women joining, I always try to reach out to them and makethem feel welcome, but ah that only takes them so far.
They have to really take that step and be not afraid to work with as many people as theywant to or are able to that are at the gym, male or female.
(14:13):
And most training partners are very...
willing to do so, you know?
ah It just takes that first step.
mean?
Like, have a right to be there.
Like, I assume that at the gym somebody made you feel like you didn't have a right to bethere, but like, what made you choose that phrase specifically?
(14:33):
I feel like there's definitely been a few times where maybe the class would be a littlebit smaller, and this is certainly not happening now, but when I first started, where
maybe there'd be several males that are all a little bit on the bigger side, and they allconveniently would choose to partner up with each other, and then that'd be like the last
(14:54):
person standing, like the one that didn't get picked.
Or, you know, for Open Mat, kind of getting
benched a little bit because the partners just didn't work out and it's kind of likethere's a point where you're kind of like, wow, should I even be here?
Like all these guys are knuckleheads.
They're all gonna, you're gonna have fun.
They're gonna kill each other.
They're gonna wrestle around and then they'll just be me.
(15:17):
But that's inherently what Jujitsu is, right?
Not being the big meathead.
I mean, I guess you can be, I can be a little bit of a meathead, but yeah, it was kind oflike why...
why can't I also do it?
So, you know, taking the step of being like, will you partner with me?
(15:37):
You know, we don't ever partner together.
Let's, let's do this.
Let's train together.
Let's work on the technique and class together.
Let's do this.
And there's no reason why I can't do that.
Right.
And learn and learn how to do it.
Take advantage of the opportunity that these guys don't have.
Right.
They don't have the ability to be the smaller person and figure out how to wiggle yourselfout into something.
(16:02):
that they may not ever have to figure out, at least not as quickly as I did.
yeah, you can do it.
Women can do it.
They just have to take that step and acknowledge that they want to do it and then juststart picking people.
thing for you?
in what manner?
(16:23):
Like to be able to ask that question, was it like self-confidence that, hey, let'spartner, I don't want to be last?
Was it frustration that got you to that point?
Like what was the tipping point that pushed you to be able to do that?
uh I mean, maybe when I started, it might have been a little bit of a confidence thing ofnot wanting to be last.
(16:45):
I actually now kind of deliberately put myself, like I kind of usually don't pick apartner ahead of time.
I'll look around to see who isn't picked immediately, like who aren't the people thatimmediately meet up.
And usually that leaves somebody that I've never trained with.
So that kind of...
I let fate decide, I'm like, we're not gonna be friends.
(17:07):
We're gonna partner together now, you know what mean?
um
I think it's great that you do that.
Like that doesn't happen as often as it should.
oh, I mean, yeah, I do make the effort to try to do it.
ah I guess it is a matter of self-confidence in the opposite direction now, whereas maybebefore it was trying to be self-preservation.
(17:28):
Now it's like, I have the confidence to know that I should be able to work with anybody,for the most part, you And sometimes there's a lot of people that I,
You're like, I guess you're really quiet person, but you're a really fun person to trainwith.
You know what I mean?
You're a really fun person to work with in class.
You're a really fun person to drill with.
You know, problem solving, all that stuff.
(17:49):
So, it gives me the opportunity to meet people that I maybe wouldn't have had theopportunity to otherwise.
What was like the hardest part of your jujitsu journey?
Was it like that transition?
Was it, you know, some thing at blue belt that happened?
Like, what was the most difficult thing for you as a journey, as far as your journey goes?
(18:11):
oh I mean, I think it's the same thing that a lot of people have where you have a bad dayeither before you go to the class or even during the class and just keep coming back.
Instead of being like, I'm terrible, everything sucks, I got tapped 15 times.
(18:34):
And I think maybe crushing that ego down a little bit and just being like, but I'm stillhaving fun.
I don't even care.
It's fun.
I don't care.
If I lose, it's still fun.
I'd probably lost.
It's something hilarious, you know?
But getting over the whole having a bad moment and just for that moment being like, oh, Ireally need to just not be here.
(18:57):
No, you're fine.
Just keep going.
It's fine.
And I've never regretted it, right?
I've never regretted having a bad day at work and forcing myself to go to train.
I've always been happy by the end of the time, you know, or if I had a bad round, youknow, take a breather and just do another one, it's always been great.
(19:17):
So I think that was something, the mentality of just keep going was something that took mea while to beat into my brain.
That's a really good lesson, I think, in general to like take off the mat.
Just keep going.
Yeah.
I actually love getting tapped a lot.
I love being in rounds and just getting tapped like five, six, seven times because it'sjust like a nice gentle reminder that if I had an ego that day or that week or that month,
(19:48):
it's gone.
There is no way to have a like a big ego if you get tapped six times in five minutes.
uh Especially at the upper belt level.
for me, that's always, always fun.
Unless it's like in a mean way.
If somebody's doing something super mean, that's a little bit different.
But if it's just playful and I get tapped six times, I'm like, man, what a life.
(20:10):
also, I can learn from that, right?
It's another problem to solve.
Like, I know when I'm going to roll with ABC people, they're going to hit me with theirtop three submissions and I know what they are because they always get me.
Well, if I want to learn how to stop it, I'm just going keep going with you until I figureout how to stop it.
You know what I mean?
Yeah, like how boring would it be if nobody was a challenge?
(20:33):
Right, so yeah, no, I love it.
I saw a TikTok the other day and I don't remember who they were talking about, but therewas like these two announcers talking about Jujitsu and they were like, imagine being so
good at Jujitsu that you just get bored while you're submitting somebody who's the best inthe world amongst the best in the world.
And you can just look at the camera and roll your eyes at how easy it is.
(20:54):
Like who wants to be that good?
And was thinking exactly.
I don't ever want to be that good.
I want to, I want to be in a position where I get, you know, occasionally beat up and
Get to laugh about it.
Yeah, we actually, every now and you have, you know, new people, you have somebody thattransfers in from a different school that moves.
(21:15):
And whenever you roll with them, they've, jujitsu is such a weird sport, right?
We all learn new techniques, there's always new techniques, people have different ways oflearning and teaching it, whatever.
And they'll do something that I've never seen before and they'll just crush me with it.
It's like, what is that?
Can I learn that?
I want to learn that, you know?
(21:35):
I think it's an opportunity.
I never get bored.
I never get bored because I love learning.
I love learning new things.
So yeah, totally.
you told me before we started recording, like when we talked off camera, that you havelike a hyper fixation problem with all of your hobbies.
And I think jujitsu is a really great problem, a really great hobby to have a hyperfixation problem.
(21:59):
Cause you could go down rabbit hole after rabbit hole after rabbit hole and you know,really kind of never run out of material.
Yeah, absolutely.
uh I feel like a lot of Jiu-Jitsu people, our brains are wired to be little maps.
Well, I'm going to do this, and then if I do that, this is going to happen to go here, andthen I can split off and do this, and then it's this flow chart that's going.
(22:22):
And I imagine that if I actually took the time to map it out, it would look like I'mcrazy.
I think a lot of us feel like that.
I think a lot of people who do Jiu-Jitsu, when they get really into it, are worried aboutcoming off as crazy.
Because it's in many ways just another religion, you know?
Yeah.
And I've also noticed that there's times when, like, for example, I'll be taking a showeror something and I'll just space out because I'm thinking about a move or the options that
(22:52):
I forgot to try or ah something that I remember seeing a couple months ago that I forgotabout that, oh, I wanted to work on this next.
And then I'll just realize that the shower's been going for like probably 10, 20 minutesand I didn't even realize it.
uh
Can't stop, we can't stop, so yeah, definitely.
latest hyperfixation?
(23:12):
Oh, yeah, okay.
I've been really into, I got really like arm, like shoulder locks, arm locks, and that'snormal, but I've been really learning leaning into the tarikoplatas and I've been trying
(23:33):
to do the barotoplatas
And then I think I saw this thing that I've been working on that's like a hip kimura orcalled the kettle kimura that I found out that we saw online.
And all of these I haven't done before until about the last year.
And I've just been going down the rabbit hole of trying to find different ways of enteringthem.
(23:54):
ah Probably trying to hit on every single training partner that I've had on Open Mat forthe last few months.
And just on Instagram be like saving that technique and then saving that technique andthen saving that technique and just trying to figure out how to, if that would work for
me.
So those are probably some of the more trendy moves that I've been like, ooh, I've neverdone this before and I want to learn and it's just kind of been sticking for a while now.
(24:19):
They're not terribly new, but they were very new to me.
I'd never learned them before.
And then suddenly I'm just, this is what I'm doing right now.
Yeah.
So definitely those.
I specifically was actually asking about non-Jujitsu hyperfixations, but that's totallyfine to have them in both places.
That's okay.
Oh, okay.
(24:39):
So one of my personal things is that don't like being wasteful with materials.
You I don't like being wasteful with food.
I don't like being wasteful with...
just a lot of trash, I guess.
So I do like to work with my hands.
I'm pretty crafty, I like to build things.
And I like to use things and recycle them into something else or not throw something awayif it can be saved.
(25:08):
So one of the things I've been really into lately is actually,
like visible mending of clothes.
whereas you know get a hole in the pair of pants or something, it used to be that wassuper close it up, stitch it down, make it look as hidden as possible so maybe it wouldn't
be identifiable.
And right now I've been really into deliberately using decorative stitching or knowpatches and making it very obvious that it was a repair.
(25:37):
But it's sort of the charm of the garment and it kind of gives them more personality.
eh So I've just been going through anything that has a hole in it and being like,stitching it down in a way that's very visible.
So like visible mending, or I think the Japanese term would be Sashiko, where they used,you know, decorative type embroidery on top of a hole.
(26:00):
something to replace to clean up pottery or um yeah, like ceramics.
Yeah, I actually love that conceptually in as well.
Like I have two or three pairs of Gi pants that are started to rip around the knees andstuff.
And my wife patches who's like an incredible sewing, um just good at that stuff has putlike these big patches of like floral patterns or something that just
(26:25):
does not in any way fit the gi, but it just looks really cool.
So I absolutely get this.
Is that the kind of stuff that you do now too?
It's just like covered like giant normal clothes or is it like jujitsu focused?
It's mostly normal clothes, like street clothes.
em I haven't done it to a gi yet.
(26:46):
I do have a few that are starting to wear down, so maybe that's just the next project isstarting to make it look very colorful.
How'd you get into sewing?
I've been doing it my whole life.
My mom, I remember when I was really little, would be like, you don't need to, we don'tneed to buy you this, we can make it ourselves.
So my mom was always sewing with me.
(27:07):
I never had a child safe sewing machine.
I remember my mom having a big metal sewing machine that I just luckily never sewed withmy fingers.
And it just never stopped.
Yeah, so it's been something I've been doing for as long as I can remember.
Did you like it back then?
Like, did you enjoy the act of sewing or did you enjoy spending time with mom and itbecame like a wonderful nostalgic activity as a result?
(27:35):
I definitely liked it.
I've always had this thing where if I'm working with my hands, I might just focus in onthat one thing, and then suddenly at the other side you have a finished product and that
was kind of cool.
So I think I always liked that aspect.
I'm sure hanging with my mom was part of it.
(27:56):
But the second that I was kind of okay with it, she was like, all right.
You're good.
I'm gonna go do something else.
So it was fine.
Like babysitting because I was taking care of myself.
ah yeah, no, I liked it.
I enjoyed it.
Do you have like a favorite part of the process?
Do you like the cutting?
Do you like the assembling?
Do you like the act of just sitting there and focused on what the machine's doing for you?
(28:23):
I like seeing a garment or whatever it is that I'm working on start to look like the thingthat I wanted to make.
I have a tendency to like to work on very detailed projects if I'm starting from scratch.
And it's really interesting to me to see random pieces of fabric and hardware that's justeverywhere.
(28:48):
and suddenly it starts to come together and you can see...
I can see what this is going to become now.
ah From like somewhere between the initial conception to even before it's fully finished,you're like, oh, this is what it's going to look like, this is cool.
And that's probably my favorite part.
To the point where sometimes I have a hard time with the finishing of things, but as I'vegotten older, I've gotten a little bit better at being more disciplined with the whole,
(29:13):
just finish the thing so you can do something else, it's fine.
Yeah, definitely.
and it like what like uh like complex dresses or like uh like is it costumes or
hyper fixations on uh sewing projects, the things that I always can't stop making orwanting to make coming up with ideas in my head are winter coats for some reason and bags.
(29:41):
I love putting pockets in bags.
I love making bags from scratch and I like to build as many pockets as I can on the insideso it's fully functional.
I want things to be functional.
uh I actually won't even sew something.
anymore unless I can feasibly see a use for it at this point.
So, because I have too much stuff otherwise.
(30:02):
Yeah, so it's definitely like, I'll spend days trying to figure out the inner guts of aproject, which is probably why I like the detailed things because I don't want to just sew
something that I'm going to be finished in a day, even though I might get more use out ofit.
But that's just my thing.
of your, uh everything you make?
(30:24):
Like, you have, every time you make a new bag or a coat, do you actually wear them?
Or do you get rid of them and sell them or whatever?
usually I do, like for example sometimes I'm like, I'm gonna make a dress for this weddingand that'll be my goal so then I'll wear the thing that I made for that event.
(30:50):
I mean, when I first started sewing and then even when I was, you know, younger, like ateenager, arguably I would make something and then it did not turn out nearly as good as
something that you could buy and I might be like, well, that was really ugly.
I'm not using this.
But I mean, I've gotten to the point now where I can kind of just go from start to finishand it's something that I'll feasibly use and wear.
(31:12):
I can't think of something that I haven't actually used at least once and been totallyhappy with it.
So...
like you had something very specific in mind of the, oh, I am not going to wear that.
Do you have like, was that like a, do you have a specific project that you're like, well,that went horribly.
Well, em I mean, nothing specific because there was a lot.
(31:34):
It was just I didn't really understand how clothes were made.
And then when I was in high school, know, puberty and you're you're trying to figure outyour style and your aesthetic.
So I liked making the clothes that I couldn't buy myself.
But if I didn't know what how to do it.
(31:55):
In my brain, what I was hoping would look like would not be what came out.
So I mean, even something simple like a skirt or a dress is just like, wow, this doesn'tfit.
How do people make things fit?
So it's just a lot of that.
It wasn't anything specific.
There was just a lot of failure.
feel like that's how people learn, so that sounds like a pretty good thing to me.
(32:18):
Yeah.
Do you have any rules for your clothes?
Like, I mean, you said it has to be functional, but like, does that mean like every dressand pair of pants will have a minimum number of pockets or?
I mean if I could sneak pockets into a dress, I absolutely will.
I mean that's like the long running joke of women's clothing, right?
(32:39):
I mean, I try to hold myself to a higher standard of like, I like the inside to be veryclean, even though it doesn't need to be, no.
ah For example, if making a bag...
For example, a couple years ago, I needed a bag that would hold my work computer, a Iwanted it to have extra room for all of the stuff you take to the gym.
(33:11):
And I needed multiple compartments so that I could keep the wet clothes away from the dryclothes.
And I just couldn't find a backpack that fit that description.
So I actually made one.
And I did use it for a very long time.
So it was like, that was hyperfunctional.
Like it had to fit.
Like I had my work computer and I was using that as the, the thing I was using to createthe pocket shapes for the laptop sleeve.
(33:37):
um So something like that, like I literally made a list of the things that I needed thatbag to do, or I wanted the bag to do.
And
went from there and if it did not hit those requirements, well then I would do it again.
I would make another bag and it would have to be better, you know what I mean?
Which is why I think I hyper-fixating on making bags because I'm thinking, wow, that wasgreat, but next time I'm going to take it step further.
(34:03):
Yeah, that's what gets me.
I had a similar issue.
mean, I didn't make it myself, but I had a similar issue where the bag that I had beenusing for years wasn't cutting it anymore, was starting to fall apart.
The zippers were breaking, the things were at the edge.
And so I made a list of everything that I liked about the bag and everything that I didn'tlike.
And I fed it into AI and I was like, please give me the top five bags that you think wouldmake sense knowing my use cases and everything.
(34:30):
And it just gave me a list.
It's like, I think you'll like these.
I think you won't like these.
And then I went into a store to try a bunch of them out and they all didn't feel supergreat.
So I'm like, just haven't continued the search, but like I had this very specific, I wantthis thing that meets all of my requirements, but I don't have the sewing skills anymore
to, well, I don't think I ever had the sewing skills to make my own bag, but my sewingskills pretty much end at like what the military taught me of like, fix this button, put a
(34:58):
patch on this and that's, that's, you know, maybe make a pillow or something.
Well that's more than what a lot of people have nowadays, so kudos to that.
ah Yeah, it's definitely...
You know there is a satisfaction of being like, I can make this thing that nobody else isgoing to ever have because there's no way I'm doing it twice.
You know what I mean?
(35:18):
Like I don't like sewing for other people too much.
But ah yeah, it's definitely functional.
to some extent, right?
do, isn't what fashion design, like some level of doing this stuff professionally?
Yes, my role is a little bit less hand-on.
It's more of me explaining to people, usually factories, how to make a garment.
(35:45):
I don't actually do the actual work myself.
Like I don't sew anything myself.
ah I tell people how to do it.
back up.
What exactly is your job title and what does that mean?
Because I sort of got it, but I would like to hear it from the horse's mouth as it were.
I am a technical designer.
(36:07):
uh Technically I am a 3D technical designer, but I can divide that into two differentsections.
The technical designer is not the person that comes up with the initial design of agarment.
So I'm not the one that decides that they're gonna make a red dress.
That is a designer's job.
(36:27):
They're the ones that decide the fabric, the colors, and the general.
design of what they want a dress to be.
Then they give it to a technical designer, which is moi, and I'm the one that figures outhow to actually build it.
ah So things like the construction, the general fit, you know, I have to make sure thatyou can move in it, make sure that the garment's not gonna fall apart.
(36:51):
And then I communicate all this information between the designers and the factories thatare going to actually make the garment.
So that's, so it's kind of like being, I guess, the architect of clothing.
So that's my job.
ah The 3D aspect is a little bit newer and that there's now lot of computer programs thatyou can now.
(37:14):
take your fit pattern and you can drape it on a 3D model on a computer program and seewhat it could look like in real life before you actually waste the physical materials and
the time to sew up an actual garment.
Which is a newer thing that I got into just before COVID hit, so I have been doing it eversince.
(37:37):
So now I'll sew up something digitally and use that to communicate.
what we want the final garment to be.
How'd you get into that?
uh, fashion or?
Well, mean, overall, like it sounds like that job sort of required you to be good atsewing or at least understand materials and construction.
(38:02):
So is that like you were just like, I really want to do this.
No, actually, I didn't even realize that my job existed until I kind of got it.
I went to college for fashion design, so that's my degree.
I might have slightly gone into it to be little bit flipping it to my dad being like, I'mdoing fashion because you say I shouldn't be wearing what I want to wear.
(38:28):
So, but I do genuinely like it.
And I think that most fashion students go into it thinking I'm going to be a fashiondesigner.
but they don't really realize that maybe that's not what they like.
Like I really like figuring out how to get something to work.
Like it's the puzzle again.
The tech design is definitely more of the puzzle.
(38:50):
How do I get to this inspiration?
How do I get to this sketch that I've got from somebody else?
But you know, being able to sew, knowing how garments go together, order of operations,all that stuff does help.
probably was why I was able to fall into it pretty well.
But no, I have a degree in fashion design and then I was offered a job as a tech designassistant way back when and I realized I really liked it.
(39:19):
And then the more I saw of what the designers actually did, I was kind of like, oh no,actually what I wanted was this all along.
So I mean, I guess in theory that means I did want to do this.
I just didn't realize I wanted to do it.
Yeah.
Do you have like a checklist?
Do you have like, when somebody hands you a garment, do you like know exactly how you'regoing to approach it?
(39:42):
Or is this like, every garment is a snowflake, and you're like, well, I'm looking at this,and I'm seeing the shoulders aren't going to work, or this neckline is going to fall
apart, or like, how do you approach each new project, I guess?
I mean, a little bit of both.
There's always going to be some basic, you know, fits that we always like.
(40:03):
Like a standard shirt, we kind of know what a basic collared button-down shirt is going tobe.
You'd always have to work on the tiny details of what the designer wants.
But sometimes it is...
everything's a snowflake.
It'd like, you want this to be a weird sleeve.
You want this to have an asymmetric hem.
(40:24):
You want this to...
be a little bit funky and not be the same and not be normal.
You want this.
Okay, so I have to figure out how to actually engineer the thing to look like it's notengineered.
Yeah, so it's a little bit of both, I would say.
Is there anything that you're ever as soon as you see you're like, fuck this person fordoing this.
(40:45):
Like, do you have any of those?
What are some of those?
thing is that it's like, it is meant to be a collaborative effort, right?
Between all the teams, like we all want to make cute clothes.
It's really satisfying when the final product is really cute garment and you see peoplewalking around wearing it.
I want to make cute clothes.
So sometimes I'll look at their basic hand sketch and it's like, that's not physicallypossible without breaking some rules.
(41:13):
Or, you know, I get that you want that to be an easy
in this case?
I mean, just physics.
Like for example, oh, I want this really fitted dress, but I don't want to have anyzippers or anything.
I want it to be really easy to pull on.
Well, she can't get into it now.
Yeah.
you know, so we're gonna have to talk about can we afford a zipper or buttons orsomething.
(41:34):
ah Because it's corporate, so you know, we have to pay for it.
ah Or maybe they're imagining that the fabric is going to do something that it just willnot do.
Like they want it to be a very stiff skirt, but they're using a very lightweight fabric.
And it's like, it's just not gonna do what
(41:56):
you're showing me we're gonna have to change something or you're gonna have to be okaywith it not doing what you want it to do.
But those are all discussions that we try to have early on.
Which is, just experience, you know, we all have to learn the hard way sometimes.
yeah, talking through it, making sure everyone's aware of what they're getting or whatthey're not gonna get, and then fizzle away as we go.
(42:22):
Have you seen one of the things that you've worked on out on the street or out in the realworld and then like had a moment like, you do, okay.
Yeah, well, I used to like to go into the stores that, you know, the company I work forand be like, I made that, I made that, I worked on that, I did that, that's mine.
And I definitely see people walking around wearing it sometimes.
Sometimes I'll see somebody wearing something that I know I worked on like 10 years ago.
(42:47):
I'll be like, oh, I didn't, I thought that that would have been in the landfill likeforever, like it was just a small thing.
But yeah, and it's kind of cool.
uh
definitely the glamour's gone worn off a little bit now that I've been doing this for like18 years, but it's still, you know, it is kind of...
gives you like little tingly feelings of like, that's the thing that I worked on.
(43:10):
and it's cute on you!
so yeah.
Have you ever said something to somebody about it?
uh Only to my coworkers.
Like if somebody at my like the co-workers weren't something that I made, I would be like,I did that!
You know, or if maybe the salesperson at the store was showcasing something, I'd be like,you know, I worked for the company, I made that dress.
(43:33):
But I try to not stop strangers on the street to comment on their clothes.
Okay, that I totally understand how that could be just a little bit weird or creepy, butalso it might sometimes you just have that rush like, my God, that that looks so good on
this person and I helped design this and like, you're just like, I was just wondering ifyou had any like,
(43:55):
probably look weird.
I might be staring at them, try to hold it in.
And if they're looking at me they might be like, what's wrong with this woman?
yeah, don't think I've ever said anything to a total stranger.
That feels kind of wholesome though, if that were to happen.
If you were just like, hey, I work for the company that makes those and I'm just reallyhappy that it looks so good on you or something.
(44:17):
I don't know.
I mean, I guess I could see it being creepy.
can see that.
No, mean, yeah, I can see how that might be.
if someone were to say that to me, I'd be like, oh, that's actually kind of cool.
But I don't have the guts to do that.
So, yeah.
Is there anything that switched to become more difficult when you went from like doingthis by hand to going into the 3D or has that made things actually easier for you?
(44:43):
uh Well, there's the whole, like technology is going so fast right now, right?
With the AI and all that.
um The hardest part was literally just that of going from the physical, we're always beingable to see what the sample looks like in Fabric Forum, the sampling, and being able to
(45:05):
understand what the uncanny valley digital form
how it translates into reality.
I think that across the board, we all kind of struggled with that where it was kind oflike, oh, so I thought when I see this digital form, it's going to look like ABC and then
it looks like 123 instead.
(45:27):
And it's just something that I think part of it is the technology is improved, but alsolearning experience being like, I know that this is how it's going to translate.
So that was probably the hardest thing to figure out.
Do you still or do you make mistakes when you're like, this thing looks great in 3D, we'refine.
And then you build one in real life and you're like, oh, that went horribly.
(45:51):
I did not expect the fabric to...
Yeah, definitely.
All the time.
Still learning.
Still lots of learning.
It's better.
I'm obviously better, but...
I feel like your reaction was very specific in that moment.
So I'm just curious what you were thinking about when I said that.
Well, I was thinking because I'm the technical designer, I'm the one that controls thedigital sample, and then I show it to the designers to make sure it's what they want.
(46:19):
You know, we call it a fitting.
And whenever we have new designers, it's always a bit of a learning curve where when theygo from the digital form to the physical form, it's like I have to reteach them or I have
to have the conversation again of being like, I mean, this looks like what I expected itto look like.
(46:40):
So it's definitely teaching other people how to see what I see.
But I mean, there's always going to be this, mean, once, once or twice a month at least,I'll get a physical sample and I'm like, well, that, I could have done that one better.
Well, next time, improve for next time.
Yeah.
(47:00):
Is there a lot of crossover between your professional uh sewing or creation and likeprivate, like personal stuff?
I learn a lot em because I mean, I obviously took sewing classes in college becausefashion design, but those are pretty basic.
(47:25):
And when you go into the corporate world and you're learning all these things or seeingthe way the factories do things, you're kind of like, actually that's very production
friendly.
I could do that.
So then I can translate it to.
my own sewing at home.
So I actually think that my home stuff has gotten a lot better.
Like my personal hobbies have improved a lot technically just because I've seen how it canbe done on a massive scale.
(47:52):
Copy everything, steal everything.
um Just like construction, honestly, usually like...
I think of a good example.
There's a lot of finishing things, I think.
So like I was saying kind of earlier, I like seeing the garment start to become what it'sgoing to be, but then I have trouble finishing the product.
(48:13):
The thing that I'm working on, like the hemming and the way to finish the sleeve openingsor the hem finishes or all that stuff.
And finding different and unique ways of doing that.
Which is actually not that unique, it's totally normal, like I do it all the time with mywork, but I didn't think of that stuff when I was younger and trying to sew my own
(48:38):
clothes.
And now I can definitely be like, oh, there's this hem finish that I really liked on thisdress that I worked on, I'm gonna do it here.
So just stuff like that, just like the finishing probably looks a little bit nicer.
I can get away with wearing things that I make and people not immediately assume that Imade it.
(48:58):
Is this because, is that last 20 % or 10 % or whatever it is for you, is that becauseyou're kind of like a perfectionist and you're like, will not consider this done until
I've done every little thing?
Or is that like a standard that you've set for yourself because you've seen so much ofthis professionally?
Well, I feel like when I was sewing for myself and trying to make my own clothes when Iwas in middle school and high school, looking back, it definitely looked very handmade.
(49:34):
know, seams were wavy.
Maybe the construction that I picked was just, it looked very handmade and homemade.
And there's a very...
uh
And it's definitely like a higher standard of my own eye.
I want to be able to look at what I made.
And if I don't acknowledge the errors that nobody else can see, I'd like, okay, this lookslike it was professionally done.
(49:55):
And a lot of that is the finishing.
That last 10 % is how you finished it is going to make it look clean or messy.
And I want to be able to make it look clean.
I want it to fly under the radar, you know.
Is there reason for that?
No, personal interests, personal hobby, personal uh standards.
(50:19):
Would you be like embarrassed if somebody's like, did you make that?
No.
Well I mean never had a uh stranger suggest it.
I've definitely had people, like people that know that I so ask frequently and it's more,I think it's kind of funny when something's like, like that where'd you get it, and I'll
be like, well I made it.
(50:40):
So if I could fool somebody, that's like the limitless test of like, okay it looks good.
I'm happy with that.
It's so funny to me because I feel like if I was able to do this stuff and somebody waslike, did you make that?
I'm like, yes, of course I made that.
Or like I would walk around and be like, hey, does everyone see that I made this?
Like, what do you think?
(51:01):
But people who tend to make their own clothes, They just don't really like broadcast itand yet everything looks really good.
And they're just, yeah, that's it.
The problem is, and this is just my personal experience, because like I said, I don'ttypically sew for other people unless it's something I'm really interested in.
(51:21):
If I start telling people that I make all this stuff all the time, like broadcast it, itimmediately gets followed up with, will you make me one?
Or will you sew something for me?
And it's kind of like, that's not why I do this.
And if I have to do it for somebody else, it starts to be less enjoyable for me.
(51:43):
I do still for other people sometimes, but like I said, it really has to be a project thatI have clamped onto and decided that's the rabbit hole I'm going down.
But yeah.
Yeah, definitely.
Gifts.
Absolutely.
That, uh, yeah, like I said, if I could do it, probably would do it more, but I just havetoo many hobbies.
(52:04):
It's already hard to find the time.
We gotta pick and choose what direction you're going for sure.
Do you have any other like hyper fixations that have got you kind of jumping down rabbitholes?
Right now, right now I have decided that I'm going to learn how to uh crochet a doily.
(52:25):
I've never wanted to do that before, but I have a very specific reason.
It's because I randomly bought this broken down umbrella, antique umbrella, where themechanism
works very well, it's very, you know, engineered very nicely, but the cover is entirelyshot like the umbrella part.
(52:50):
And I remember seeing some really cute parasols that were crocheted lace tops.
And in my brain, I that would be so cute for this, but I'm never going to find exactlywhat I want.
So I have bought books on how to crochet, I have crocheted hooks, I have some yarn thatI'm going to play with.
(53:10):
I don't crochet.
I don't crochet, I'm not a crocheter, but I'm going to be a crocheter by the end of this.
I'm always motivated, at least at start, by a specific goal or project in mind.
So this stupid parasol that I want to recover is just because I want to be able to make adoily cover that I can attach down and that's now the cover for the umbrella.
(53:35):
So that's my thing right now.
It's kind of weird.
I haven't gotten far enough to be, you know.
I think that sounds really cool.
I mean, it sounds like you have a very specific, like you said, idea of liking to reclaimthings.
Mm-hmm.
I will save this umbrella.
It might take me a year or two, but it will get done.
How?
No idea.
(53:56):
I have to figure it out.
Internet's wonderful.
I can learn anything.
Yeah.
Yeah, right now, all the space that is taking up, but it will get done and I'll figure itout.
Might take some trials and errors, but yeah.
So that's definitely one of those.
reclaimed that you're particularly proud of?
(54:16):
Oh gosh, off the top of my head.
I don't know, I'm also kind of wondering about that gas mask behind you.
that?
I don't actually know where that came from.
I might have gotten that from some...
Like an Army Navy store?
Yeah.
My husband was in the army, so uh we have some random things like that.
(54:39):
It has a Halloween costume with the roses on it.
Oh, this guy, I dressed up as Shredder for a Halloween costume several years ago.
It was like a group project where several of my female Jujitsu players dressed up as NinjaTurtles or characters and I was Shredder.
He is made entirely of junk mail.
(55:02):
like the cardboard spam and then covered in duct tape.
So the entire thing was duct tape.
have like spikes made out of duct tape because I thought it would be funny to have like areally ornate costume that was made out of junk material.
So that shredder, you could buy like six packs on Amazon.
(55:26):
Yeah, I mean, I made like epaulettes and.
uh
I know what they're called either.
Yeah, like the forearm, I don't know what they're called either, like the forearm things.
A gauntlet might be correct.
Yeah.
And then shin guards.
just wrapped, I wrapped my leg with Saran wrap and then I duct taped over the whole thingwhere I wanted it to go and like cut it off into the shapes that it would be molded to my
(55:53):
body.
Did you guys have like a public battle?
No, don't know.
We didn't.
had a lot of pictures, but we did not.
uh We did not stage any any fights.
Okay, if I had that opportunity, I for sure would have had like a little bit of fightbecause Shredder wins almost all the battles but loses the war.
(56:16):
Yeah.
That's good idea.
We should have.
I don't think it occurred to us.
Yeah, we should have.
We didn't.
Yeah, I'm sure we could always do it again, I guess.
So is there, I mean, you have quite a bit of hobbies and stuff, like is there any piece ofadvice in general that you just wish everyone knew?
uh I think that
It takes, yeah, sometimes you forget the older you get.
(56:39):
think you forget that it takes a lot of error and bad, bad final products before you startto make good ones.
I think I forget that because when you're younger, everything's bad and then suddenly itstarts to get better.
So then you just get used to things being better.
ah So, you know, if I'm talking to a...
(57:02):
a friend to like, oh man, I tried to do this thing and it was terrible.
It's like, but that was your first try.
Trying again and again and again and learn from each one.
And reminding myself and therefore everybody else, know, yeah, you're probably going tosuck the first 10, 20 times, but you will get better.
(57:24):
It will improve if you want it to.
You just have to keep trying.
And then you have to pick and choose your hobbies.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Lot of failure.
It's okay.
Lots of failure.
You'll get better.
Yeah.
What are you excited for in the future?
(57:44):
I mean specifically for jiu-jitsu I just I like learning new things and there's always newthings, there's always new moves.
To see something online that's super trendy and suddenly you're like I want to learn that.
So specifically for that that's just what I want to do.
gloriously fail at attempting funny new moves that are just hilarious for everybody.
(58:07):
um
Yeah, just see new things, do new things.
See what else I would like that I don't know that I like until I try it.
That's kind of how hyperfixations end up starting, isn't it?
You find out you like something and then you realize you're about to lose a couple monthsor years of your life.
(58:30):
Yeah, you don't usually realize it until you're halfway through it and you're like, oh,this is where we're going.
Okay.
Yeah.
think for me it's usually as soon as I've run the credit card and then I'm like, oh shoot,now I'm into this.
Yeah.
Otherwise it was a waste.
Exactly.
Is there anything that you want to promote?
(58:51):
Really, really.
Just a shout out to my school, the Jiujitsu Company.
Great people to train with.
Always willing to put up with my shenanigans.
Or do you think your shenanigans are a difficult thing to put up with?
think they're funny.
No, I don't think they're difficult.
I just think that watching me flail around like a fish while I try that random move that Isaw once and never actually tried to work it out before trying it live, that sort of
(59:17):
thing.
All the time.
gives people hope.
I feel like watching like an upper belt or a black belt flail around and massively makemistakes or do something and look stupid gives everybody hope like, oh, maybe it's okay to
look like that and still learn.
have a lot of glorious failures that, you know what, it's okay.
(59:43):
Just laugh it off and then try again.
And then go back and be like okay maybe I should have learned how to do this move first.
And then everybody gets to be my victim until I figure it out.
That's a good way of looking at it actually.
Rather than I need help or I need support, you're my victim.
(01:00:04):
Yeah.
I need you to give me your arm right now.
I want to try this thing.
Well, that's something I actually mentioned when I was speaking at my Black Belt.
It was like, it's always nice having people you can train with that are willing to let youtry to figure things out, right?
It's just kind of being like scooting towards them on the ground with like itchy fingersbeing like, can I try something?
(01:00:27):
I need you to give me your arm for a second.
I want to try this thing.
And then there's...
okay, i don't know what you're doing but okay, know.
um there's a lot of that and a lot of it being wrong over and over again until i figure itout.
Was that the lesson for you?
the thing that, you everybody has a thing when they get their black belt about, this isthe important thing for me.
(01:00:53):
And it sounds like for you, the important thing was, I have this group of people that arewilling to let me kind of play and do whatever I want and maybe not be too judgmental.
Was that it for you?
Yeah, I would say so, definitely.
ah I don't have, like I have so many playful moves.
(01:01:15):
ah Am I a master at any of them?
Probably not, but that's not what the fun part is for me.
You I don't want the move that is utterly unstoppable.
I mean, I want it, but the...
work it takes to get there, it's kind like I'll get there eventually.
I love learning the new things, trying the new things, or if somebody always gives me aproblem, like someone very specific is always like, they're able to stop the thing that
(01:01:44):
nobody else can stop, then it's like, you're going to show me what you're doing and I'mgoing to figure out how to stop you.
But it does require, you know, two to tango.
I need to have the teammates that are willing to let me work.
And I've got several that are willing to play, so...
That's always nice.
It's great that you've got that kind of community.
(01:02:08):
Yeah, quite fortunate.
Cool, thank you so much for your time today, Heidi.
This was a really fun conversation.
I enjoyed it.
Thank you, Eric.
Nice to meet you.
You too.
Hey, Heidi, thanks for being here.
Hi Eric.
Tell me, what was it like for you to get your black belt?
surreal.
I think that when I started, I didn't even really understand how serious jiu-jitsu peoplewere about the sport.
I just thought I was going to take some basic classes, learn a few moves, get someexercise, and then go home.
(00:41):
And I remember viewing, oh, these are the black belts as...
unreachable.
That was a skill that I could not comprehend even touching.
And I remember the day that I got it, it was kind of like, well, I'm here now.
(01:02):
Now what?
You know, I didn't really understand how much I could still learn.
Did it feel real in that moment or were you just like, uh sort of stunned at the existenceof it around your waist?
Well, the way that my school did it was they kind of gave me about a month heads up thatit was going to happen because they wanted to make it a whole seminar event thing where,
(01:27):
you know, I taught a few things that I'd been working on and then they'd give me the beltin front of everybody.
So that month of prior work made it real.
I definitely took that month when they kind of said, was like, yeah, they're not going todo it.
That's not going to happen.
(01:48):
But then, you know, the day shows up and everybody's in the room staring at you waiting togive a speech.
It's like, oh, yeah, no, okay, I'm here now.
This is real.
So it took me a while, but I got there.
By the time it actually happened, it was on my waist.
Yeah, was, I was, it was real.
What?
What'd you teach?
(02:08):
Like what was the move you taught or moves?
okay, so the way that my gemlists do this is they want you to pick a project that you arebad at, a technique you don't know, a move that you would like to get better at, something
that's not a strength that becomes a strength.
And I did something I don't recommend people do in that situation, which was I wanted toget better at doing an escape.
(02:35):
from the bottom of side control, which is the worst position to get stuck in.
So I did an underhook escape.
ah It was painful.
was something that, originally I was like, oh, I want to do something really cool.
want to do a flashy submission.
I want to look cool.
But that's just not what I needed.
(02:56):
That was not my biggest weakness.
was getting out of bottom of side control was something that I really wanted to get betterat.
And then I started talking to some of my teammates.
you know, lower belt or whatever and they're like, no, teach it, I need that too.
so I just went with it I'm really glad I did it but it was a bottom side control escape.
(03:19):
There's nothing wrong with that.
I mean, I'm personally somebody who likes basics and likes focusing on them.
So I feel like that's a really good thing.
Did you have to talk to any of the instructors to like validate that?
Like did they have to approve your choice of thing?
think they did have a say, but they didn't reject it.
(03:40):
And I definitely talked to them through along the way.
This had been a long-term project of mine to get proficient at that specific technique ofgetting underhooked and sliding out and taking the back.
uh So I'd been kind of talking them through it periodically, being like, okay, I'm stuckat this point and I've exhausted
(04:02):
all options that I can think of, do you have any ideas?" So they kind of knew what I wasworking on along the way.
uh But yeah, they were fully aware of what I was working on and were like, yeah, you'dneed to work on that.
Is this something that you just avoided because you weren't getting in bottom side controlor did you uh just constantly get stuck there because it's a skill of the gym?
(04:29):
Like why were you particularly bad at this thing?
Well, I was specifically trying to work on the underhook escape version where you slideout the bottom because it's a lot less energy than elbow escaping out or hip bumping out
or reverse rolling.
(04:50):
And I just felt like I always struggled with some of the other techniques and theunderhook version was not one that I'd ever really experimented with before.
So when I was asking
other people, know, what's the technique that seems to work for you?
Or if you have another suggestion, because why not?
That was the one that came up.
(05:13):
And it was difficult because I basically would mean I would work on the technique and thenI would go to Open Mat and just go to my partner being like, can we start inside control?
And just spitting the words out to let a person pin me on the ground.
in worst possible position and then try to fight my way out for like a year was reallyterrible.
(05:36):
But I use that technique all the time.
It honestly changed the way I move in a lot of other positions of being able to find theangle to just shoot myself out and pivot around people.
So ah I had other ways of getting out, know, like could like elbow escape or whatever, butI just didn't feel like I was as good as I wanted to be.
(05:59):
Yeah.
yeah, if somebody that was particularly good at pinning you pins me, it would be just, I'mgonna die here.
This is where I'm gonna die for the rest of my life.
This is where I'm gonna be.
I just, you know, the way out is through.
You gotta do it.
So that's what I did.
I'm a person, I mean, I come from wrestling.
(06:20):
for me, underhooks is always like one of the first things I try to get no matter what spotI'm in.
And so if somebody gets me the first thing I'm doing, even subconsciously is grabbing forthat underhook.
So it's, it's in general, quite difficult to hold me down.
So I didn't even think about that being a challenge, but now that you say it, if youhaven't been a person who sticks to underhooks as like a core part of your game, you will
(06:45):
struggle getting out on a regular basis.
yeah, it was terrible.
Especially if I go against a wrestler.
oh
I wanna, I wanna swing back to something you said about like why you started jujitsu.
You said you just thought you were gonna get exercise.
Of all the things to just do and get exercise, being around a bunch of sweaty people inspandex or pajamas does not feel like the easiest way to get, uh frankly, just get
(07:15):
exercise.
Like what, what made you choose jujitsu and what made you kind of stick with it?
Cause that feels like a very long road to.
exercise.
Well, like I said, I didn't really realize how long the road would be or how high levelyou can take it or how many steps you're gonna go.
I actually originally didn't start, my jujitsu beginning didn't really start like I amgoing to do jujitsu and I'm gonna get black belt.
(07:42):
It started at a regular gym that was like CrossFit and then self-defense classes.
And it actually started with
couple classes there that were groundwork because, know, for self-defense, they justthought that you needed to get comfortable with being on the ground, especially as a
(08:03):
woman.
You just want to, you know, don't want to freak out.
You want to have focus and think about things you can do.
So that's actually where I kind of had a taste for what it was like to grapple.
And then that was actually, I lived in Ohio before I was in Philadelphia.
And then when I moved to Philadelphia, I realized there was actually a
(08:23):
jujitsu specific school near me, so I figured I'd try it out because I always reallyenjoyed the grappling classes.
I was kind of interested to see how far I could go.
But even then, I still didn't really realize how intense it could get.
ah But, you know, you get the bug, and then suddenly it's less about the exercise and moreabout trying to figure out the thing, trying to figure out the puzzle.
(08:51):
And I'm still doing it.
So it is the puzzle for you.
Yeah, definitely.
You know, trying to figure out, I can't do this thing.
I know it's possible.
So and I there's been a lot of things that over the years, I know that if I work on atechnique long enough, a year or two or more, I will get there.
(09:14):
There's been things that I never thought I'd be able to pick up that now I can, because Ijust kept grinding them out for a very long time.
And
there's a very satisfied feeling of being able to naturally fall into that movement.
What is that?
Like what is the thing that was the hardest for you to pick up?
I mean, are you gonna, I would be surprised if you say the elbow escape from side control,but in general, what was it?
(09:38):
uh Well, okay, the first one.
The first one, I remember the very specific move that made me realize how nuanced Jujutsucould be, for example.
And this is more of a fast one would be, the triangle.
I remember when I first learned it as a self-defense thing before I got really serious.
(09:58):
was, trap your partner's head and leg, uh sorry, head and arm with your legs and thensqueeze.
And I remember being like, this is terrible.
I can't ever do it.
This doesn't make any sense.
You know, they're never tapping.
And then, um, started getting lessons, you know, from a more serious school and teachingabout how you just shift your angle so you can, you know, chop more into the, the cartoid
(10:24):
with your thigh.
And it was like that.
And I remember thinking, my God, this is what jujitsu is.
That's so cool.
So stuff like that.
But I remember the first move that I.
I remember the first class at the Jiujitsu school with a gi on, the whole shebang.
The first move that we did was a collar choke, like an axe choke from bottom of clothesguard.
(10:48):
I don't think I was able to consistently pull off the gi choke with the grips.
I couldn't figure out the grips.
I couldn't fall into it until at least a blue belt.
Like I just struggled to find the place.
I remember thinking, well, I guess I'm more of an armbar person because I can't do it.
And now it's like my favorite submission.
(11:08):
I love Gi chokes, you know what mean?
And then there's always been benchmarks along the way that are like that.
Yeah, I don't think I understood cross-collar chokes until like late purple belt, earlybrown belt.
So I get that.
But can you now, do you like, it was weird how was like, you couldn't, I couldn't atleast, I just couldn't adjust my hand to fit to where it needed to be to just snap down.
(11:34):
But now it just comfortably falls in with the muscle memories.
Very comfortable.
very bad wrists that I got from years of striking.
And so for me, gi chokes are particularly difficult.
If I don't get the angle exactly, my wrists will hurt for like a week.
So I'm like very careful.
So if I get it, I get it.
(11:55):
But if I don't get it, I will let it go rather than making the adjustments that I wouldnormally make.
And I won't even try things like, uh
like baseball bat chokes or something or Ezekiel chokes in very specific ways.
like literally I'm worried about being in pain and not being able to like type or teach orsomething like that.
So, but I, but when I get it, it's, very tight.
(12:18):
Like when I get it, it's like, I nailed it.
Cause I know it's like, okay, I'm not risking my own health or pain thresholds for this.
Yeah, like for the next week.
One move is not worth paying for the next week.
Yeah, for sure.
would, I've actually, I've made such mistakes while trying to get Gi chokes that I'vetapped when I'm the one applying the submission.
(12:41):
Cause I'm like, okay, stop, stop, this hurts.
Yeah.
Like I'm wrapped up!
I can't!
I think I've twisted myself up!
Yeah, for sure.
You're a woman who got into this and stuck with it.
Like, what do you think is good advice for women?
Because I feel like this is not this doesn't get talked about the way I really hope thatit would like what do you think is a good piece of advice for women who are like, you
(13:03):
know, on the fence about it or they've started and they can't decide to stick with it.
I mean, the first advice is, regardless of gender, is you have to want to do it.
You know what I mean?
Some people I feel like...
They like it because maybe they saw it on TV or something, but they don't actually likethe rolling.
(13:25):
They don't like the training.
They don't like wrestling with people being that close.
So it's kind of like, well, you have to like the sport.
But those that do, they have every right to be there.
I have every right to be there than my male counterparts.
know what I mean?
uh
(13:46):
And for the most part, think I've had a very positive experience with supportive trainingpartners.
I feel like when I see newer women joining, I always try to reach out to them and makethem feel welcome, but ah that only takes them so far.
They have to really take that step and be not afraid to work with as many people as theywant to or are able to that are at the gym, male or female.
(14:13):
And most training partners are very...
willing to do so, you know?
ah It just takes that first step.
mean?
Like, have a right to be there.
Like, I assume that at the gym somebody made you feel like you didn't have a right to bethere, but like, what made you choose that phrase specifically?
(14:33):
I feel like there's definitely been a few times where maybe the class would be a littlebit smaller, and this is certainly not happening now, but when I first started, where
maybe there'd be several males that are all a little bit on the bigger side, and they allconveniently would choose to partner up with each other, and then that'd be like the last
(14:54):
person standing, like the one that didn't get picked.
Or, you know, for Open Mat, kind of getting
benched a little bit because the partners just didn't work out and it's kind of likethere's a point where you're kind of like, wow, should I even be here?
Like all these guys are knuckleheads.
They're all gonna, you're gonna have fun.
They're gonna kill each other.
They're gonna wrestle around and then they'll just be me.
(15:17):
But that's inherently what Jujitsu is, right?
Not being the big meathead.
I mean, I guess you can be, I can be a little bit of a meathead, but yeah, it was kind oflike why...
why can't I also do it?
So, you know, taking the step of being like, will you partner with me?
(15:37):
You know, we don't ever partner together.
Let's, let's do this.
Let's train together.
Let's work on the technique and class together.
Let's do this.
And there's no reason why I can't do that.
Right.
And learn and learn how to do it.
Take advantage of the opportunity that these guys don't have.
Right.
They don't have the ability to be the smaller person and figure out how to wiggle yourselfout into something.
(16:02):
that they may not ever have to figure out, at least not as quickly as I did.
yeah, you can do it.
Women can do it.
They just have to take that step and acknowledge that they want to do it and then juststart picking people.
thing for you?
in what manner?
(16:23):
Like to be able to ask that question, was it like self-confidence that, hey, let'spartner, I don't want to be last?
Was it frustration that got you to that point?
Like what was the tipping point that pushed you to be able to do that?
uh I mean, maybe when I started, it might have been a little bit of a confidence thing ofnot wanting to be last.
(16:45):
I actually now kind of deliberately put myself, like I kind of usually don't pick apartner ahead of time.
I'll look around to see who isn't picked immediately, like who aren't the people thatimmediately meet up.
And usually that leaves somebody that I've never trained with.
So that kind of...
I let fate decide, I'm like, we're not gonna be friends.
(17:07):
We're gonna partner together now, you know what mean?
um
I think it's great that you do that.
Like that doesn't happen as often as it should.
oh, I mean, yeah, I do make the effort to try to do it.
ah I guess it is a matter of self-confidence in the opposite direction now, whereas maybebefore it was trying to be self-preservation.
(17:28):
Now it's like, I have the confidence to know that I should be able to work with anybody,for the most part, you And sometimes there's a lot of people that I,
You're like, I guess you're really quiet person, but you're a really fun person to trainwith.
You know what I mean?
You're a really fun person to work with in class.
You're a really fun person to drill with.
You know, problem solving, all that stuff.
(17:49):
So, it gives me the opportunity to meet people that I maybe wouldn't have had theopportunity to otherwise.
What was like the hardest part of your jujitsu journey?
Was it like that transition?
Was it, you know, some thing at blue belt that happened?
Like, what was the most difficult thing for you as a journey, as far as your journey goes?
(18:11):
oh I mean, I think it's the same thing that a lot of people have where you have a bad dayeither before you go to the class or even during the class and just keep coming back.
Instead of being like, I'm terrible, everything sucks, I got tapped 15 times.
(18:34):
And I think maybe crushing that ego down a little bit and just being like, but I'm stillhaving fun.
I don't even care.
It's fun.
I don't care.
If I lose, it's still fun.
I'd probably lost.
It's something hilarious, you know?
But getting over the whole having a bad moment and just for that moment being like, oh, Ireally need to just not be here.
(18:57):
No, you're fine.
Just keep going.
It's fine.
And I've never regretted it, right?
I've never regretted having a bad day at work and forcing myself to go to train.
I've always been happy by the end of the time, you know, or if I had a bad round, youknow, take a breather and just do another one, it's always been great.
(19:17):
So I think that was something, the mentality of just keep going was something that took mea while to beat into my brain.
That's a really good lesson, I think, in general to like take off the mat.
Just keep going.
Yeah.
I actually love getting tapped a lot.
I love being in rounds and just getting tapped like five, six, seven times because it'sjust like a nice gentle reminder that if I had an ego that day or that week or that month,
(19:48):
it's gone.
There is no way to have a like a big ego if you get tapped six times in five minutes.
uh Especially at the upper belt level.
for me, that's always, always fun.
Unless it's like in a mean way.
If somebody's doing something super mean, that's a little bit different.
But if it's just playful and I get tapped six times, I'm like, man, what a life.
(20:10):
also, I can learn from that, right?
It's another problem to solve.
Like, I know when I'm going to roll with ABC people, they're going to hit me with theirtop three submissions and I know what they are because they always get me.
Well, if I want to learn how to stop it, I'm just going keep going with you until I figureout how to stop it.
You know what I mean?
Yeah, like how boring would it be if nobody was a challenge?
(20:33):
Right, so yeah, no, I love it.
I saw a TikTok the other day and I don't remember who they were talking about, but therewas like these two announcers talking about Jujitsu and they were like, imagine being so
good at Jujitsu that you just get bored while you're submitting somebody who's the best inthe world amongst the best in the world.
And you can just look at the camera and roll your eyes at how easy it is.
(20:54):
Like who wants to be that good?
And was thinking exactly.
I don't ever want to be that good.
I want to, I want to be in a position where I get, you know, occasionally beat up and
Get to laugh about it.
Yeah, we actually, every now and you have, you know, new people, you have somebody thattransfers in from a different school that moves.
(21:15):
And whenever you roll with them, they've, jujitsu is such a weird sport, right?
We all learn new techniques, there's always new techniques, people have different ways oflearning and teaching it, whatever.
And they'll do something that I've never seen before and they'll just crush me with it.
It's like, what is that?
Can I learn that?
I want to learn that, you know?
(21:35):
I think it's an opportunity.
I never get bored.
I never get bored because I love learning.
I love learning new things.
So yeah, totally.
you told me before we started recording, like when we talked off camera, that you havelike a hyper fixation problem with all of your hobbies.
And I think jujitsu is a really great problem, a really great hobby to have a hyperfixation problem.
(21:59):
Cause you could go down rabbit hole after rabbit hole after rabbit hole and you know,really kind of never run out of material.
Yeah, absolutely.
uh I feel like a lot of Jiu-Jitsu people, our brains are wired to be little maps.
Well, I'm going to do this, and then if I do that, this is going to happen to go here, andthen I can split off and do this, and then it's this flow chart that's going.
(22:22):
And I imagine that if I actually took the time to map it out, it would look like I'mcrazy.
I think a lot of us feel like that.
I think a lot of people who do Jiu-Jitsu, when they get really into it, are worried aboutcoming off as crazy.
Because it's in many ways just another religion, you know?
Yeah.
And I've also noticed that there's times when, like, for example, I'll be taking a showeror something and I'll just space out because I'm thinking about a move or the options that
(22:52):
I forgot to try or ah something that I remember seeing a couple months ago that I forgotabout that, oh, I wanted to work on this next.
And then I'll just realize that the shower's been going for like probably 10, 20 minutesand I didn't even realize it.
uh
Can't stop, we can't stop, so yeah, definitely.
latest hyperfixation?
(23:12):
Oh, yeah, okay.
I've been really into, I got really like arm, like shoulder locks, arm locks, and that'snormal, but I've been really learning leaning into the tarikoplatas and I've been trying
(23:33):
to do the barotoplatas
And then I think I saw this thing that I've been working on that's like a hip kimura orcalled the kettle kimura that I found out that we saw online.
And all of these I haven't done before until about the last year.
And I've just been going down the rabbit hole of trying to find different ways of enteringthem.
(23:54):
ah Probably trying to hit on every single training partner that I've had on Open Mat forthe last few months.
And just on Instagram be like saving that technique and then saving that technique andthen saving that technique and just trying to figure out how to, if that would work for
me.
So those are probably some of the more trendy moves that I've been like, ooh, I've neverdone this before and I want to learn and it's just kind of been sticking for a while now.
(24:19):
They're not terribly new, but they were very new to me.
I'd never learned them before.
And then suddenly I'm just, this is what I'm doing right now.
Yeah.
So definitely those.
I specifically was actually asking about non-Jujitsu hyperfixations, but that's totallyfine to have them in both places.
That's okay.
Oh, okay.
(24:39):
So one of my personal things is that don't like being wasteful with materials.
You I don't like being wasteful with food.
I don't like being wasteful with...
just a lot of trash, I guess.
So I do like to work with my hands.
I'm pretty crafty, I like to build things.
And I like to use things and recycle them into something else or not throw something awayif it can be saved.
(25:08):
So one of the things I've been really into lately is actually,
like visible mending of clothes.
whereas you know get a hole in the pair of pants or something, it used to be that wassuper close it up, stitch it down, make it look as hidden as possible so maybe it wouldn't
be identifiable.
And right now I've been really into deliberately using decorative stitching or knowpatches and making it very obvious that it was a repair.
(25:37):
But it's sort of the charm of the garment and it kind of gives them more personality.
eh So I've just been going through anything that has a hole in it and being like,stitching it down in a way that's very visible.
So like visible mending, or I think the Japanese term would be Sashiko, where they used,you know, decorative type embroidery on top of a hole.
(26:00):
something to replace to clean up pottery or um yeah, like ceramics.
Yeah, I actually love that conceptually in as well.
Like I have two or three pairs of Gi pants that are started to rip around the knees andstuff.
And my wife patches who's like an incredible sewing, um just good at that stuff has putlike these big patches of like floral patterns or something that just
(26:25):
does not in any way fit the gi, but it just looks really cool.
So I absolutely get this.
Is that the kind of stuff that you do now too?
It's just like covered like giant normal clothes or is it like jujitsu focused?
It's mostly normal clothes, like street clothes.
em I haven't done it to a gi yet.
(26:46):
I do have a few that are starting to wear down, so maybe that's just the next project isstarting to make it look very colorful.
How'd you get into sewing?
I've been doing it my whole life.
My mom, I remember when I was really little, would be like, you don't need to, we don'tneed to buy you this, we can make it ourselves.
So my mom was always sewing with me.
(27:07):
I never had a child safe sewing machine.
I remember my mom having a big metal sewing machine that I just luckily never sewed withmy fingers.
And it just never stopped.
Yeah, so it's been something I've been doing for as long as I can remember.
Did you like it back then?
Like, did you enjoy the act of sewing or did you enjoy spending time with mom and itbecame like a wonderful nostalgic activity as a result?
(27:35):
I definitely liked it.
I've always had this thing where if I'm working with my hands, I might just focus in onthat one thing, and then suddenly at the other side you have a finished product and that
was kind of cool.
So I think I always liked that aspect.
I'm sure hanging with my mom was part of it.
(27:56):
But the second that I was kind of okay with it, she was like, all right.
You're good.
I'm gonna go do something else.
So it was fine.
Like babysitting because I was taking care of myself.
ah yeah, no, I liked it.
I enjoyed it.
Do you have like a favorite part of the process?
Do you like the cutting?
Do you like the assembling?
Do you like the act of just sitting there and focused on what the machine's doing for you?
(28:23):
I like seeing a garment or whatever it is that I'm working on start to look like the thingthat I wanted to make.
I have a tendency to like to work on very detailed projects if I'm starting from scratch.
And it's really interesting to me to see random pieces of fabric and hardware that's justeverywhere.
(28:48):
and suddenly it starts to come together and you can see...
I can see what this is going to become now.
ah From like somewhere between the initial conception to even before it's fully finished,you're like, oh, this is what it's going to look like, this is cool.
And that's probably my favorite part.
To the point where sometimes I have a hard time with the finishing of things, but as I'vegotten older, I've gotten a little bit better at being more disciplined with the whole,
(29:13):
just finish the thing so you can do something else, it's fine.
Yeah, definitely.
and it like what like uh like complex dresses or like uh like is it costumes or
hyper fixations on uh sewing projects, the things that I always can't stop making orwanting to make coming up with ideas in my head are winter coats for some reason and bags.
(29:41):
I love putting pockets in bags.
I love making bags from scratch and I like to build as many pockets as I can on the insideso it's fully functional.
I want things to be functional.
uh I actually won't even sew something.
anymore unless I can feasibly see a use for it at this point.
So, because I have too much stuff otherwise.
(30:02):
Yeah, so it's definitely like, I'll spend days trying to figure out the inner guts of aproject, which is probably why I like the detailed things because I don't want to just sew
something that I'm going to be finished in a day, even though I might get more use out ofit.
But that's just my thing.
of your, uh everything you make?
(30:24):
Like, you have, every time you make a new bag or a coat, do you actually wear them?
Or do you get rid of them and sell them or whatever?
usually I do, like for example sometimes I'm like, I'm gonna make a dress for this weddingand that'll be my goal so then I'll wear the thing that I made for that event.
(30:50):
I mean, when I first started sewing and then even when I was, you know, younger, like ateenager, arguably I would make something and then it did not turn out nearly as good as
something that you could buy and I might be like, well, that was really ugly.
I'm not using this.
But I mean, I've gotten to the point now where I can kind of just go from start to finishand it's something that I'll feasibly use and wear.
(31:12):
I can't think of something that I haven't actually used at least once and been totallyhappy with it.
So...
like you had something very specific in mind of the, oh, I am not going to wear that.
Do you have like, was that like a, do you have a specific project that you're like, well,that went horribly.
Well, em I mean, nothing specific because there was a lot.
(31:34):
It was just I didn't really understand how clothes were made.
And then when I was in high school, know, puberty and you're you're trying to figure outyour style and your aesthetic.
So I liked making the clothes that I couldn't buy myself.
But if I didn't know what how to do it.
(31:55):
In my brain, what I was hoping would look like would not be what came out.
So I mean, even something simple like a skirt or a dress is just like, wow, this doesn'tfit.
How do people make things fit?
So it's just a lot of that.
It wasn't anything specific.
There was just a lot of failure.
feel like that's how people learn, so that sounds like a pretty good thing to me.
(32:18):
Yeah.
Do you have any rules for your clothes?
Like, I mean, you said it has to be functional, but like, does that mean like every dressand pair of pants will have a minimum number of pockets or?
I mean if I could sneak pockets into a dress, I absolutely will.
I mean that's like the long running joke of women's clothing, right?
(32:39):
I mean, I try to hold myself to a higher standard of like, I like the inside to be veryclean, even though it doesn't need to be, no.
ah For example, if making a bag...
For example, a couple years ago, I needed a bag that would hold my work computer, a Iwanted it to have extra room for all of the stuff you take to the gym.
(33:11):
And I needed multiple compartments so that I could keep the wet clothes away from the dryclothes.
And I just couldn't find a backpack that fit that description.
So I actually made one.
And I did use it for a very long time.
So it was like, that was hyperfunctional.
Like it had to fit.
Like I had my work computer and I was using that as the, the thing I was using to createthe pocket shapes for the laptop sleeve.
(33:37):
um So something like that, like I literally made a list of the things that I needed thatbag to do, or I wanted the bag to do.
And
went from there and if it did not hit those requirements, well then I would do it again.
I would make another bag and it would have to be better, you know what I mean?
Which is why I think I hyper-fixating on making bags because I'm thinking, wow, that wasgreat, but next time I'm going to take it step further.
(34:03):
Yeah, that's what gets me.
I had a similar issue.
mean, I didn't make it myself, but I had a similar issue where the bag that I had beenusing for years wasn't cutting it anymore, was starting to fall apart.
The zippers were breaking, the things were at the edge.
And so I made a list of everything that I liked about the bag and everything that I didn'tlike.
And I fed it into AI and I was like, please give me the top five bags that you think wouldmake sense knowing my use cases and everything.
(34:30):
And it just gave me a list.
It's like, I think you'll like these.
I think you won't like these.
And then I went into a store to try a bunch of them out and they all didn't feel supergreat.
So I'm like, just haven't continued the search, but like I had this very specific, I wantthis thing that meets all of my requirements, but I don't have the sewing skills anymore
to, well, I don't think I ever had the sewing skills to make my own bag, but my sewingskills pretty much end at like what the military taught me of like, fix this button, put a
(34:58):
patch on this and that's, that's, you know, maybe make a pillow or something.
Well that's more than what a lot of people have nowadays, so kudos to that.
ah Yeah, it's definitely...
You know there is a satisfaction of being like, I can make this thing that nobody else isgoing to ever have because there's no way I'm doing it twice.
You know what I mean?
(35:18):
Like I don't like sewing for other people too much.
But ah yeah, it's definitely functional.
to some extent, right?
do, isn't what fashion design, like some level of doing this stuff professionally?
Yes, my role is a little bit less hand-on.
It's more of me explaining to people, usually factories, how to make a garment.
(35:45):
I don't actually do the actual work myself.
Like I don't sew anything myself.
ah I tell people how to do it.
back up.
What exactly is your job title and what does that mean?
Because I sort of got it, but I would like to hear it from the horse's mouth as it were.
I am a technical designer.
(36:07):
uh Technically I am a 3D technical designer, but I can divide that into two differentsections.
The technical designer is not the person that comes up with the initial design of agarment.
So I'm not the one that decides that they're gonna make a red dress.
That is a designer's job.
(36:27):
They're the ones that decide the fabric, the colors, and the general.
design of what they want a dress to be.
Then they give it to a technical designer, which is moi, and I'm the one that figures outhow to actually build it.
ah So things like the construction, the general fit, you know, I have to make sure thatyou can move in it, make sure that the garment's not gonna fall apart.
(36:51):
And then I communicate all this information between the designers and the factories thatare going to actually make the garment.
So that's, so it's kind of like being, I guess, the architect of clothing.
So that's my job.
ah The 3D aspect is a little bit newer and that there's now lot of computer programs thatyou can now.
(37:14):
take your fit pattern and you can drape it on a 3D model on a computer program and seewhat it could look like in real life before you actually waste the physical materials and
the time to sew up an actual garment.
Which is a newer thing that I got into just before COVID hit, so I have been doing it eversince.
(37:37):
So now I'll sew up something digitally and use that to communicate.
what we want the final garment to be.
How'd you get into that?
uh, fashion or?
Well, mean, overall, like it sounds like that job sort of required you to be good atsewing or at least understand materials and construction.
(38:02):
So is that like you were just like, I really want to do this.
No, actually, I didn't even realize that my job existed until I kind of got it.
I went to college for fashion design, so that's my degree.
I might have slightly gone into it to be little bit flipping it to my dad being like, I'mdoing fashion because you say I shouldn't be wearing what I want to wear.
(38:28):
So, but I do genuinely like it.
And I think that most fashion students go into it thinking I'm going to be a fashiondesigner.
but they don't really realize that maybe that's not what they like.
Like I really like figuring out how to get something to work.
Like it's the puzzle again.
The tech design is definitely more of the puzzle.
(38:50):
How do I get to this inspiration?
How do I get to this sketch that I've got from somebody else?
But you know, being able to sew, knowing how garments go together, order of operations,all that stuff does help.
probably was why I was able to fall into it pretty well.
But no, I have a degree in fashion design and then I was offered a job as a tech designassistant way back when and I realized I really liked it.
(39:19):
And then the more I saw of what the designers actually did, I was kind of like, oh no,actually what I wanted was this all along.
So I mean, I guess in theory that means I did want to do this.
I just didn't realize I wanted to do it.
Yeah.
Do you have like a checklist?
Do you have like, when somebody hands you a garment, do you like know exactly how you'regoing to approach it?
(39:42):
Or is this like, every garment is a snowflake, and you're like, well, I'm looking at this,and I'm seeing the shoulders aren't going to work, or this neckline is going to fall
apart, or like, how do you approach each new project, I guess?
I mean, a little bit of both.
There's always going to be some basic, you know, fits that we always like.
(40:03):
Like a standard shirt, we kind of know what a basic collared button-down shirt is going tobe.
You'd always have to work on the tiny details of what the designer wants.
But sometimes it is...
everything's a snowflake.
It'd like, you want this to be a weird sleeve.
You want this to have an asymmetric hem.
(40:24):
You want this to...
be a little bit funky and not be the same and not be normal.
You want this.
Okay, so I have to figure out how to actually engineer the thing to look like it's notengineered.
Yeah, so it's a little bit of both, I would say.
Is there anything that you're ever as soon as you see you're like, fuck this person fordoing this.
(40:45):
Like, do you have any of those?
What are some of those?
thing is that it's like, it is meant to be a collaborative effort, right?
Between all the teams, like we all want to make cute clothes.
It's really satisfying when the final product is really cute garment and you see peoplewalking around wearing it.
I want to make cute clothes.
So sometimes I'll look at their basic hand sketch and it's like, that's not physicallypossible without breaking some rules.
(41:13):
Or, you know, I get that you want that to be an easy
in this case?
I mean, just physics.
Like for example, oh, I want this really fitted dress, but I don't want to have anyzippers or anything.
I want it to be really easy to pull on.
Well, she can't get into it now.
Yeah.
you know, so we're gonna have to talk about can we afford a zipper or buttons orsomething.
(41:34):
ah Because it's corporate, so you know, we have to pay for it.
ah Or maybe they're imagining that the fabric is going to do something that it just willnot do.
Like they want it to be a very stiff skirt, but they're using a very lightweight fabric.
And it's like, it's just not gonna do what
(41:56):
you're showing me we're gonna have to change something or you're gonna have to be okaywith it not doing what you want it to do.
But those are all discussions that we try to have early on.
Which is, just experience, you know, we all have to learn the hard way sometimes.
yeah, talking through it, making sure everyone's aware of what they're getting or whatthey're not gonna get, and then fizzle away as we go.
(42:22):
Have you seen one of the things that you've worked on out on the street or out in the realworld and then like had a moment like, you do, okay.
Yeah, well, I used to like to go into the stores that, you know, the company I work forand be like, I made that, I made that, I worked on that, I did that, that's mine.
And I definitely see people walking around wearing it sometimes.
Sometimes I'll see somebody wearing something that I know I worked on like 10 years ago.
(42:47):
I'll be like, oh, I didn't, I thought that that would have been in the landfill likeforever, like it was just a small thing.
But yeah, and it's kind of cool.
uh
definitely the glamour's gone worn off a little bit now that I've been doing this for like18 years, but it's still, you know, it is kind of...
gives you like little tingly feelings of like, that's the thing that I worked on.
(43:10):
and it's cute on you!
so yeah.
Have you ever said something to somebody about it?
uh Only to my coworkers.
Like if somebody at my like the co-workers weren't something that I made, I would be like,I did that!
You know, or if maybe the salesperson at the store was showcasing something, I'd be like,you know, I worked for the company, I made that dress.
(43:33):
But I try to not stop strangers on the street to comment on their clothes.
Okay, that I totally understand how that could be just a little bit weird or creepy, butalso it might sometimes you just have that rush like, my God, that that looks so good on
this person and I helped design this and like, you're just like, I was just wondering ifyou had any like,
(43:55):
probably look weird.
I might be staring at them, try to hold it in.
And if they're looking at me they might be like, what's wrong with this woman?
yeah, don't think I've ever said anything to a total stranger.
That feels kind of wholesome though, if that were to happen.
If you were just like, hey, I work for the company that makes those and I'm just reallyhappy that it looks so good on you or something.
(44:17):
I don't know.
I mean, I guess I could see it being creepy.
can see that.
No, mean, yeah, I can see how that might be.
if someone were to say that to me, I'd be like, oh, that's actually kind of cool.
But I don't have the guts to do that.
So, yeah.
Is there anything that switched to become more difficult when you went from like doingthis by hand to going into the 3D or has that made things actually easier for you?
(44:43):
uh Well, there's the whole, like technology is going so fast right now, right?
With the AI and all that.
um The hardest part was literally just that of going from the physical, we're always beingable to see what the sample looks like in Fabric Forum, the sampling, and being able to
(45:05):
understand what the uncanny valley digital form
how it translates into reality.
I think that across the board, we all kind of struggled with that where it was kind oflike, oh, so I thought when I see this digital form, it's going to look like ABC and then
it looks like 123 instead.
(45:27):
And it's just something that I think part of it is the technology is improved, but alsolearning experience being like, I know that this is how it's going to translate.
So that was probably the hardest thing to figure out.
Do you still or do you make mistakes when you're like, this thing looks great in 3D, we'refine.
And then you build one in real life and you're like, oh, that went horribly.
(45:51):
I did not expect the fabric to...
Yeah, definitely.
All the time.
Still learning.
Still lots of learning.
It's better.
I'm obviously better, but...
I feel like your reaction was very specific in that moment.
So I'm just curious what you were thinking about when I said that.
Well, I was thinking because I'm the technical designer, I'm the one that controls thedigital sample, and then I show it to the designers to make sure it's what they want.
(46:19):
You know, we call it a fitting.
And whenever we have new designers, it's always a bit of a learning curve where when theygo from the digital form to the physical form, it's like I have to reteach them or I have
to have the conversation again of being like, I mean, this looks like what I expected itto look like.
(46:40):
So it's definitely teaching other people how to see what I see.
But I mean, there's always going to be this, mean, once, once or twice a month at least,I'll get a physical sample and I'm like, well, that, I could have done that one better.
Well, next time, improve for next time.
Yeah.
(47:00):
Is there a lot of crossover between your professional uh sewing or creation and likeprivate, like personal stuff?
I learn a lot em because I mean, I obviously took sewing classes in college becausefashion design, but those are pretty basic.
(47:25):
And when you go into the corporate world and you're learning all these things or seeingthe way the factories do things, you're kind of like, actually that's very production
friendly.
I could do that.
So then I can translate it to.
my own sewing at home.
So I actually think that my home stuff has gotten a lot better.
Like my personal hobbies have improved a lot technically just because I've seen how it canbe done on a massive scale.
(47:52):
Copy everything, steal everything.
um Just like construction, honestly, usually like...
I think of a good example.
There's a lot of finishing things, I think.
So like I was saying kind of earlier, I like seeing the garment start to become what it'sgoing to be, but then I have trouble finishing the product.
(48:13):
The thing that I'm working on, like the hemming and the way to finish the sleeve openingsor the hem finishes or all that stuff.
And finding different and unique ways of doing that.
Which is actually not that unique, it's totally normal, like I do it all the time with mywork, but I didn't think of that stuff when I was younger and trying to sew my own
(48:38):
clothes.
And now I can definitely be like, oh, there's this hem finish that I really liked on thisdress that I worked on, I'm gonna do it here.
So just stuff like that, just like the finishing probably looks a little bit nicer.
I can get away with wearing things that I make and people not immediately assume that Imade it.
(48:58):
Is this because, is that last 20 % or 10 % or whatever it is for you, is that becauseyou're kind of like a perfectionist and you're like, will not consider this done until
I've done every little thing?
Or is that like a standard that you've set for yourself because you've seen so much ofthis professionally?
Well, I feel like when I was sewing for myself and trying to make my own clothes when Iwas in middle school and high school, looking back, it definitely looked very handmade.
(49:34):
know, seams were wavy.
Maybe the construction that I picked was just, it looked very handmade and homemade.
And there's a very...
uh
And it's definitely like a higher standard of my own eye.
I want to be able to look at what I made.
And if I don't acknowledge the errors that nobody else can see, I'd like, okay, this lookslike it was professionally done.
(49:55):
And a lot of that is the finishing.
That last 10 % is how you finished it is going to make it look clean or messy.
And I want to be able to make it look clean.
I want it to fly under the radar, you know.
Is there reason for that?
No, personal interests, personal hobby, personal uh standards.
(50:19):
Would you be like embarrassed if somebody's like, did you make that?
No.
Well I mean never had a uh stranger suggest it.
I've definitely had people, like people that know that I so ask frequently and it's more,I think it's kind of funny when something's like, like that where'd you get it, and I'll
be like, well I made it.
(50:40):
So if I could fool somebody, that's like the limitless test of like, okay it looks good.
I'm happy with that.
It's so funny to me because I feel like if I was able to do this stuff and somebody waslike, did you make that?
I'm like, yes, of course I made that.
Or like I would walk around and be like, hey, does everyone see that I made this?
Like, what do you think?
(51:01):
But people who tend to make their own clothes, They just don't really like broadcast itand yet everything looks really good.
And they're just, yeah, that's it.
The problem is, and this is just my personal experience, because like I said, I don'ttypically sew for other people unless it's something I'm really interested in.
(51:21):
If I start telling people that I make all this stuff all the time, like broadcast it, itimmediately gets followed up with, will you make me one?
Or will you sew something for me?
And it's kind of like, that's not why I do this.
And if I have to do it for somebody else, it starts to be less enjoyable for me.
(51:43):
I do still for other people sometimes, but like I said, it really has to be a project thatI have clamped onto and decided that's the rabbit hole I'm going down.
But yeah.
Yeah, definitely.
Gifts.
Absolutely.
That, uh, yeah, like I said, if I could do it, probably would do it more, but I just havetoo many hobbies.
(52:04):
It's already hard to find the time.
We gotta pick and choose what direction you're going for sure.
Do you have any other like hyper fixations that have got you kind of jumping down rabbitholes?
Right now, right now I have decided that I'm going to learn how to uh crochet a doily.
(52:25):
I've never wanted to do that before, but I have a very specific reason.
It's because I randomly bought this broken down umbrella, antique umbrella, where themechanism
works very well, it's very, you know, engineered very nicely, but the cover is entirelyshot like the umbrella part.
(52:50):
And I remember seeing some really cute parasols that were crocheted lace tops.
And in my brain, I that would be so cute for this, but I'm never going to find exactlywhat I want.
So I have bought books on how to crochet, I have crocheted hooks, I have some yarn thatI'm going to play with.
(53:10):
I don't crochet.
I don't crochet, I'm not a crocheter, but I'm going to be a crocheter by the end of this.
I'm always motivated, at least at start, by a specific goal or project in mind.
So this stupid parasol that I want to recover is just because I want to be able to make adoily cover that I can attach down and that's now the cover for the umbrella.
(53:35):
So that's my thing right now.
It's kind of weird.
I haven't gotten far enough to be, you know.
I think that sounds really cool.
I mean, it sounds like you have a very specific, like you said, idea of liking to reclaimthings.
Mm-hmm.
I will save this umbrella.
It might take me a year or two, but it will get done.
How?
No idea.
(53:56):
I have to figure it out.
Internet's wonderful.
I can learn anything.
Yeah.
Yeah, right now, all the space that is taking up, but it will get done and I'll figure itout.
Might take some trials and errors, but yeah.
So that's definitely one of those.
reclaimed that you're particularly proud of?
(54:16):
Oh gosh, off the top of my head.
I don't know, I'm also kind of wondering about that gas mask behind you.
that?
I don't actually know where that came from.
I might have gotten that from some...
Like an Army Navy store?
Yeah.
My husband was in the army, so uh we have some random things like that.
(54:39):
It has a Halloween costume with the roses on it.
Oh, this guy, I dressed up as Shredder for a Halloween costume several years ago.
It was like a group project where several of my female Jujitsu players dressed up as NinjaTurtles or characters and I was Shredder.
He is made entirely of junk mail.
(55:02):
like the cardboard spam and then covered in duct tape.
So the entire thing was duct tape.
have like spikes made out of duct tape because I thought it would be funny to have like areally ornate costume that was made out of junk material.
So that shredder, you could buy like six packs on Amazon.
(55:26):
Yeah, I mean, I made like epaulettes and.
uh
I know what they're called either.
Yeah, like the forearm, I don't know what they're called either, like the forearm things.
A gauntlet might be correct.
Yeah.
And then shin guards.
just wrapped, I wrapped my leg with Saran wrap and then I duct taped over the whole thingwhere I wanted it to go and like cut it off into the shapes that it would be molded to my
(55:53):
body.
Did you guys have like a public battle?
No, don't know.
We didn't.
had a lot of pictures, but we did not.
uh We did not stage any any fights.
Okay, if I had that opportunity, I for sure would have had like a little bit of fightbecause Shredder wins almost all the battles but loses the war.
(56:16):
Yeah.
That's good idea.
We should have.
I don't think it occurred to us.
Yeah, we should have.
We didn't.
Yeah, I'm sure we could always do it again, I guess.
So is there, I mean, you have quite a bit of hobbies and stuff, like is there any piece ofadvice in general that you just wish everyone knew?
uh I think that
It takes, yeah, sometimes you forget the older you get.
(56:39):
think you forget that it takes a lot of error and bad, bad final products before you startto make good ones.
I think I forget that because when you're younger, everything's bad and then suddenly itstarts to get better.
So then you just get used to things being better.
ah So, you know, if I'm talking to a...
(57:02):
a friend to like, oh man, I tried to do this thing and it was terrible.
It's like, but that was your first try.
Trying again and again and again and learn from each one.
And reminding myself and therefore everybody else, know, yeah, you're probably going tosuck the first 10, 20 times, but you will get better.
(57:24):
It will improve if you want it to.
You just have to keep trying.
And then you have to pick and choose your hobbies.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Lot of failure.
It's okay.
Lots of failure.
You'll get better.
Yeah.
What are you excited for in the future?
(57:44):
I mean specifically for jiu-jitsu I just I like learning new things and there's always newthings, there's always new moves.
To see something online that's super trendy and suddenly you're like I want to learn that.
So specifically for that that's just what I want to do.
gloriously fail at attempting funny new moves that are just hilarious for everybody.
(58:07):
um
Yeah, just see new things, do new things.
See what else I would like that I don't know that I like until I try it.
That's kind of how hyperfixations end up starting, isn't it?
You find out you like something and then you realize you're about to lose a couple monthsor years of your life.
(58:30):
Yeah, you don't usually realize it until you're halfway through it and you're like, oh,this is where we're going.
Okay.
Yeah.
think for me it's usually as soon as I've run the credit card and then I'm like, oh shoot,now I'm into this.
Yeah.
Otherwise it was a waste.
Exactly.
Is there anything that you want to promote?
(58:51):
Really, really.
Just a shout out to my school, the Jiujitsu Company.
Great people to train with.
Always willing to put up with my shenanigans.
Or do you think your shenanigans are a difficult thing to put up with?
think they're funny.
No, I don't think they're difficult.
I just think that watching me flail around like a fish while I try that random move that Isaw once and never actually tried to work it out before trying it live, that sort of
(59:17):
thing.
All the time.
gives people hope.
I feel like watching like an upper belt or a black belt flail around and massively makemistakes or do something and look stupid gives everybody hope like, oh, maybe it's okay to
look like that and still learn.
have a lot of glorious failures that, you know what, it's okay.
(59:43):
Just laugh it off and then try again.
And then go back and be like okay maybe I should have learned how to do this move first.
And then everybody gets to be my victim until I figure it out.
That's a good way of looking at it actually.
Rather than I need help or I need support, you're my victim.
(01:00:04):
Yeah.
I need you to give me your arm right now.
I want to try this thing.
Well, that's something I actually mentioned when I was speaking at my Black Belt.
It was like, it's always nice having people you can train with that are willing to let youtry to figure things out, right?
It's just kind of being like scooting towards them on the ground with like itchy fingersbeing like, can I try something?
(01:00:27):
I need you to give me your arm for a second.
I want to try this thing.
And then there's...
okay, i don't know what you're doing but okay, know.
um there's a lot of that and a lot of it being wrong over and over again until i figure itout.
Was that the lesson for you?
the thing that, you everybody has a thing when they get their black belt about, this isthe important thing for me.
(01:00:53):
And it sounds like for you, the important thing was, I have this group of people that arewilling to let me kind of play and do whatever I want and maybe not be too judgmental.
Was that it for you?
Yeah, I would say so, definitely.
ah I don't have, like I have so many playful moves.
(01:01:15):
ah Am I a master at any of them?
Probably not, but that's not what the fun part is for me.
You I don't want the move that is utterly unstoppable.
I mean, I want it, but the...
work it takes to get there, it's kind like I'll get there eventually.
I love learning the new things, trying the new things, or if somebody always gives me aproblem, like someone very specific is always like, they're able to stop the thing that
(01:01:44):
nobody else can stop, then it's like, you're going to show me what you're doing and I'mgoing to figure out how to stop you.
But it does require, you know, two to tango.
I need to have the teammates that are willing to let me work.
And I've got several that are willing to play, so...
That's always nice.
It's great that you've got that kind of community.
(01:02:08):
Yeah, quite fortunate.
Cool, thank you so much for your time today, Heidi.
This was a really fun conversation.
I enjoyed it.
Thank you, Eric.
Nice to meet you.
You too.
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