Escaping 18 Years of Domestic Violence Part 1

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Hi and welcome back to Beyond the Monsters.
Today I have Lindsay here with us all the way from Utah.
She just flew in, when did you get in?
Yesterday.
yesterday.
yes, traveling fun.
um All right, well we're gonna dive into her story.

(00:30):
Okay, I don't really know where to start.
So I guess we'll start with like a little bit of where I am now.
I am a survivor of domestic violence.
And so that's, you know, what the premise of my story is.
um I guess we can kind of start when I met him, because that's kind of where I start allthe time.
um I met him when I was 16.
I thought I knew everything.

(00:52):
I was a teenager that could be told nothing and...
m
I remember the first time I saw him, he walked into chemistry class and there was just agroup of people, was majority girls and they were just surrounding him.
And I remember wondering like, why are they surrounding him?
I was just like so mesmerized by what drew people to him right off the bat.

(01:12):
I could see that.
And as we started talking,
My mom was very, very strict.
I'm the oldest of four children.
I was the test child where you're figuring everything out.
I was raised in a very religious family.
I did competitive dance growing up.
So we were very regimented.
What she says is what she means.

(01:33):
And when I very first started talking to him, I was grounded.
And he's like, let's go hang out.
And I was like, can't.
I'm grounded.
And he's like, let me talk to your mom.
And I was like, you want to talk to my mom?
He's 17 and I'm 16.
So he was a senior when I was a sophomore, but he so yeah and it was weird because

(01:54):
like, wow, that's bold at 17.
Right?
Especially my mom was the one that I was always intimidated by.
It was not my dad.
My dad is this big scary riding club, rides horses cowboy.
My mom was always the one I was scared of.
Like, don't mess with her.
She's just very...
Yes.
And I was like, okay, like go talk to my mom.

(02:16):
Good luck.
Like have fun, because I don't like to talk to her.
Right.
And she agreed.
We went out that night.
And I still don't like I know at some point my mom and I probably talked about it, but Iwasn't there.
So it wasn't anything that has really like stuck inside.
I don't know what he said to convince her to let me go, but we went out that night.
And it was just so strange because no one had ever stood up to my mom.

(02:40):
You just don't right?
That wasn't something that happened.
And so we started hanging out.
Well, as we started hanging out more, he was really
He was debate president of our high school.
And so he would pride himself on being able to win any argument.
And he did.
Like any argument he got into, he would win it.
And throughout our relationship, he would admit to me multiple times, I knew you wereright the whole time, I just had to win.

(03:05):
And I remember having the thought, well, I can't be mad at that because that was one ofthe things that drew me to him in the first place.
So how can I be mad at something that...
I admired and something that, you know what I mean?
It felt very hypocritical.
And so I was like, OK, well, guess at least he knew I was right.
Like, yeah, I was a baby.
So, you know, that happened.
um I remember another thing that he would be so, proud of is he would bully the bullies.

(03:31):
If he would see someone getting picked on, he would pick on the bully.
And I was like, my gosh, you are the sweetest.
Like in front of everyone first.
yeah, and I'm like, my heck, you are so sweet.
And that was never something that I saw as a bad thing.
I'm like, my gosh, you're standing up for people.
And he would just like talk about how he would like physically assault these peoplestanding up for a bully.

(03:52):
And I'm like, my god.
Yes, that was totally the mindset that I had.
And very early on in our relationship, he shared trauma with me that he had.
em So his birth dad and his mom had had a really traumatic relationship.
And I still don't know that I quite know the exact details of what happened.

(04:12):
You hear everyone's version of what happened, But I know that there was a lot of drama.
There was a lot of turmoil in that relationship.
And his birth dad ended up giving up rights to him and his sister and his older brotherwhen my ex-husband was probably about four.
And he was the youngest of the three.

(04:33):
um So later on, his stepdad, who is still married to his birth mom now, adopted him.
And he changed his name.
And he never had anything to do with his birth dad.
And he shared that all with me very, very early on in that he was really scared of hisbirth dad.
It was very...
bits and pieces of stories, right?
It was not really a clear picture for me.

(04:54):
I just knew that he was scared and that it was something that he didn't share with mostpeople.
And that was probably instilled in him maybe by his mom or something.
And that's something that I worry about so much now, like because I saw how it affectedhim.
And I don't know, looking back now, I can definitely see it differently.
But I can see like the fear that he had at that time was genuine.

(05:16):
Like I believed that he was scared of that man.
And there was one point in our relationship before we had gotten married, we were still inhigh school.
And I remember he showed up at my house and he knocked on my front door and he had justcome from a job interview and he was like shaking, physically shaking.
And I was like, what is wrong?
Come in.
And he's like, it was my dad.
And I'm like, what are you talking about?

(05:37):
And he was like, the guy interviewing me was my birth dad.
And I was like, what are you talking about?
Like, how did you not know?
eh Well, he said he sat through the whole entire interview.
He said the man had another person in the interview with him the whole time and that itfelt really weird.
The interview went throughout the whole process and then he said at the end, um the personinterviewing him said, well, what if I want favors run?

(06:00):
Like, will you run errands for me?
And he was like, well, if I'm getting paid, sure.
And he goes, okay, well, what if they're more personal favors?
And he said, at that point, he looks down at the name tag and the name registered and itclicked.
And he said he stood up and walked out and left.
And I remember he came to my house later that day and he was just petrified and he waslike, he's gonna find us, he's gonna find me.

(06:20):
And it's interesting now because I still have a relationship with his birth dad, which wewill get to later in the story.
But I've never asked him because I just don't feel like it's my place to ask.
But it was so bizarre.
Like the whole interaction was weird, but he was very scared that he had like let him findhim and his mom.
Now is he protective of mom very okay, very very

(06:44):
protective of mom.
And mom is a very specific individual.
She had very specific rules.
Like later on when we got married, there was a point where we lived with them.
I wasn't allowed to kiss him goodbye, like peck him goodbye in front of other people, orespecially her younger son.
Like that was a big no-no.
It was just like very specific odd rules.

(07:06):
And it was fine.
I'm like, OK, your house, I'll follow your rules.
things that were just, I'm just like I'm making out with him.
Right.
You know?
I was like, OK.
Just like little pack bye.
Yeah
so just weird, weird interaction.
So he shares this trauma with me.
And so then as our relationship progresses, he starts telling me, you know, I didn't havea lot of girlfriends.

(07:27):
I had done competitive dance and I just, I've always been the kind of person that I justsay what's on my mind.
First and foremost, it just comes out and a lot of girls just can't handle that type of.
in the dance world, as we know.
And so I just was kind of a loner and that was fine with me like competitive dance waskind of what I loved and so I didn't really care that I wasn't involved in high school

(07:48):
stuff right but then when I met him there was no wall for him to there was no friends thatwere the birth of you know right like that warrior he didn't have to convince friends that
he was bad it was just my family that I already felt didn't understand me because I'm ateenager right and
Bye.
What teenager understands them?
None.
And so then if someone's saying, well, I know who you are.

(08:10):
know, you do.
Like, who am I?
And so it was so easy for him to convince me that my family didn't understand me.
And my mom made
himself the hero.
for me.
He's standing up for my emotions and helping me stand up for myself.
And I remember my mom, again, this strict woman.

(08:33):
I remember people don't come over to our house unless it is clean and everything issituated.
And that's fine.
I just feel like that's how her mom is.
But I just knew that's what happened.
And so when she would ask me to do chores or whatever, clean the bathroom, clean mybedroom, whatever, if I didn't do it the way she wanted,
what do you parent, how you parent, right?

(08:55):
She would say, I'm not gonna take you to dance.
Cause I cared about nothing else.
She couldn't use anything else against me.
So she's like, if you don't do this, I'm not taking you to dance.
He grabbed that and ran.
He was like, that's how they're controlling you.
You need to quit dance because that's how they're controlling you.
And I was like, you're right.
And in the middle of competition season, and I don't know many people that will understandthis, but we were like weeks away from our first competition.

(09:19):
I just didn't go.
Shit.
I just stayed home.
I was like, no, I'm not going.
just told my mom I'm not going.
She had my dance teacher come over to my house, come down into my bedroom.
And she's like, are you sure you want to do this?
And I was like, I'm not going.
Like, I was adamant.
I was standing my ground.
I was standing up for myself.
Did you like forget how much you loved it and everything at that moment or you just wantedto like please him?

(09:44):
think it was kind of a mixture of things.
think because, mean, obviously in the dance world, there are friendships that form.
There are very tight friendships that form.
And I was always kind of the outcast, right?
I loved to dance.
I still have a love for music and dance.
It still speaks to who I am.
But I think because I didn't have the acceptance and like that core friendship even there.

(10:07):
Right.
It wasn't really hard for me to be like, okay, well, I'm graduating in a year.
what is, but I'm not going to do anything with dance after this.
I'm going to regain my independence.
You know, it wasn't hard to.
Because there's this guy your new, you know night and shining armor.
Let's see you understand you like Wow He started early.

(10:28):
Oh
Very early on, I was required to text him.
Like if he text me, I was supposed to text him back.
And I had dated other guys when I was 16.
Like how serious are relationships?
What do you know about them?
Not a lot.
And so at that time, texts were per like you paid per text.

(10:49):
So I got a lot.
trouble because I would go over every month and my dad would just yell and yell and yelland I'm like, don't care.
Because I knew like, I'm just trying to please him and make him happy.
So I didn't care.
And so it was things like that that started very early on and that he expected thosethings of me to show that I loved him and I cared for him.

(11:10):
Even for him, I you were young also, but to be that much of a master manipulator?
Of course not.
fact that I was like, oh my gosh, you are so sweet and you're protecting me.
like, I saw none of it and my family didn't like him.
No one liked him.
Everyone told me like, there's just something off.
Like they couldn't exactly pinpoint what, but they didn't like him.

(11:32):
And my whole thing was, well, you just don't understand him because I understood histrauma and he just hasn't shared it with you.
So you don't get him and you don't get me and you're just trying to make me unhappy.
Like that was the, and you could not convince me otherwise.
Isn't it crazy how we can look back and we're like.
So insane.
when I talk about it now, like when I go to high schools now and I talk about healthyrelationships and I kind of tell my story, I tell about when I meet him and the things

(11:57):
just, I don't feel it's scary because it wasn't.
It was my life.
It was what I fell in love with.
That was what drew me to him.
eh And so I just tell it like that and we just let them kind of pull it out.
But even now when I say some things out loud, I'm like, oh God.
like I'll see their faces and I'm like, I know.
Yeah, yeah.

(12:17):
As our relationship progressed, remember he would tell me that I had got a chance to dateother boys, but he needed to date other girls to make sure we were supposed to be
together.
And I was like, okay, like we're to be together.
That's totally, I believe we're supposed to be together.
So you go do that.
You have fun.
I'll just wait here.
And I did.
And I knew he was dating other girls and I would kind of like see about it.

(12:40):
Like 17-ish.
hadn't heard.
I mean, it was my junior year, probably.
He was out of school.
I was still in high school.
So the dynamic was definitely different.
he wants to date her on while you just said wait.
Yeah.
And I was like, okay.
And I just let him do it.
And I would, mean, at that point I wasn't sneaking out.
wasn't doing drugs.
I wasn't a bad kid, but I definitely wanted things my own way.

(13:04):
Like you weren't going to convince me that I was going to do things any other way thanwhat I wanted to do them.
Absolutely.
I think that's, that's definitely how I parent now.
I told my grandma the other day, I was like, anytime I have something that I want my kidsto do, I try to convince the teenage version of myself that it's a good idea.
because
Honestly, like even look at your own teenage self, you are never going to convince thateven if you come with every receipt in the book.

(13:29):
Doesn't matter.
Never convince them otherwise.
And so that is always how I parent because I mean, I just think of myself as that teenagerand I didn't listen to anyone.
So it was just right.
So um as he came back, he was dating all these other girls and he came back to me and Iremember this.

(13:49):
uh
Like I would see pictures.
So we both worked at a kiosk in the mall and I worked in upstairs one by the food court.
He worked at the downstairs one.
So it was the same company.
And he would like pick up random girls that would work at mall stores.
And he would come up and have lunch with them at the food court in front of me.
And I would just like, girl.

(14:11):
And at this point we were like living together in an apartment.
and we were going, like I had graduated high school.
We weren't married, but we were living together and we would drive to work together.
but he's just like having, I'm like, like I say this now and I'm like, okay, why?
Because you did you had blinders on I did they're really good at that, you know, they'regood at making you feel that way Absolutely.

(14:33):
Did you how was your self-esteem during this time?
I think it started to struggle.
I've never been someone who's not confident.
As a dancer and a performer, I think you learn how to get on the stage, even through thatanxiety and push through.
And I think I thrived on that in some way.
I don't like to be out in public and out in places.

(14:54):
And I think that that's always been part of me.
Now it's definitely more extreme since my abuse.
But even before then, I was definitely one that just didn't want to be in it unless I'm init for a reason.
m
right.
uh
was really easy for me to just be like, okay, whatever, and just kind of stay out of it.
But it was just insane for me to even look back and be like,

(15:15):
So you guys are living together.
Yeah, you're working in the same vicinity of each other.
Uh-huh.
He's Right in front of you.
Yeah.
Yeah, like what?
What did you feel like when you guys went home at night or anything like that?
Would you be like?
Why were you having lunch right in front of me or did you just leave it alone?
Okay, also he had a man

(15:38):
Oh, I I well and I think that's why I hold so much guilt against myself for all of itbecause I look back now and I'm like Why didn't I just say something like I can see
really?
weren't at that point in your life.
weren't in that position to do that.
That's why.
I didn't know.
I didn't, I know that sounds dumb, but I didn't know I could.
Well, you'd already been you're being manipulated already.

(15:59):
Yeah
So remember when all of this like came to an end and he decided he was going to ask me tomarry him.
I remember he came to me one day and he was like, you know, I'm not physically attractedto you, but I know you're going to take care of me the best.
And I was like, you are so right.
I am going to take care of you the best.
And I was like...

(16:19):
So now that's one of those things that I say it I'm like.
Wait, did that even happen?
Okay, like I don't feel like I'm ugly.
Like, and so I just, but I felt grateful to him.
I felt like I owed him something because he was looking past something to love me.
I remember having that.

(16:40):
oh
gonna take care of him.
That's probably what you held on to.
it.
And I prided myself in that.
mean, and that's everyone in the state of Utah, but like me, I that's all I grew upwanting to be was a good wife and mom.
Right.
I think that's a lot of what happens around where I'm from.
Right.
And I think that that can be taken and manipulated.

(17:03):
A lot uh of people in that area are Mormons.
Yes.
Stay at home wife moment.
I was raised Mormon.
I am not active anymore.
I still believe in God, but I don't believe that I have to go and be a part of that.
I believe that the church created a lot of trauma for me specifically, but I know thatthat's not everyone's experience.

(17:23):
So I try to just keep that.
My family is still very, very active.
I'm the only one in my family who is not.
My immediate family.
I've always been the black sheep.
My mom will tell you, I had an event at a high school the other day and it's a high schoolshe works at and I sat on the little rolly cart and I had my daughter push me down and

(17:47):
she's like, once a troublemaker, always a troublemaker.
And I was like, at least I'm consistent.
Yeah.
But again, it's so crazy to me now though, because like, I know that that's the mindsetshe has, but I look back and I'm like, I didn't do drugs.
I didn't sneak out.
I didn't, like, I know I asked questions and I pushed back and I had like,
I had to say something about everything.

(18:08):
My dad still to this day tells me if you would just learn to shut your mouth, you wouldn'tget in trouble.
You're probably right.
just can't do it.
It's not who I am.
It never has been.
How old are you now?
Now he's like telling you, okay, Mary, cause you could take care of me.
So he proposed to me January 14th 2006 and we were married February 24th 2006.

(18:37):
So it was like six weeks.
We planned the wedding in six weeks.
But at this point I'm like, okay, we've been together for like three, three and a halfyears.
Like I have waited to marry this man.
I have, he's dated other women.
Like I'm ready, let's do it.
And I felt like I won.
So we got married.
I was 19, I was a baby, and we got married.
And a year into the marriage, I got pregnant.

(19:01):
We had just bought a house.
Baby was not in the plan.
We bought the house thinking that I was gonna work full time, he was gonna work full time,like that was the plan.
Pregnancy was hard.
I got put on very strict bed rest.
I had to crawl to the bathroom because I was passing out and they couldn't figure out why.
And so they were like, well, if you pass out, we want you like close to the floor.
Right.

(19:21):
oh
and we were just far enough away from family that it was hard.
I think it was like the beginning of what made it easy for him to put tension on therelationship with my family.
Obviously there's already tension there because they don't like him and he knows theydon't like him.
But I was always, and I look back now and I wonder if I should have done this differently,but I never shared any of the struggles that I had with him with my family.

(19:48):
Because I didn't want to give them anything else to use against him.
So if I'm arguing with him, if like nothing was shared with anyone in my family, period,the end, the person I did go to was his mom.
Because in my mind, I was like, well, his mom's always gonna love him, right?
And so I can talk her through the things that he's doing to me.
And even if they're horrible, she's still gonna love him.

(20:10):
And so it's a safe place for him, right?
I felt like he wouldn't feel attacked if I was going to his person.
Does that make sense?
And so that's kind of where I stayed the whole entire time.
She was my sounding board when I had issues with him.
How did that go?
For the most part, her and I were really close.
um
understood or did she believe you?

(20:32):
At that point, there was nothing I had that I was complaining about.
I was happy.
I was having babies and I was staying home.
Once I quit my job, I was just working at a recreation center in the city that we livedin.
So wasn't anything major.
I didn't go to college, so I graduated high school, but that was it.

(20:54):
I had dropped out of hair school.
I had gone to hair school and I was a month and a half from graduation.
and he had decided that he was gonna go to Las Vegas with one of the girls that I wasgoing to hair school with and I found out about it while they were in Vegas.
uh It was awful and when they came home I was like, I can't be here.
I can't be here around her.
can't like.

(21:14):
You knew her too?
yeah, she got in my phone and took his number out of my phone and text him and that's howthey hooked up according to him again I never asked her so who knows how much of this part
is actually true, but he claims that she so she lived in Las Vegas they were going down onvacation and He wanted to go with his friend.
And so they were just gonna go hang out And when they got back, I was like, I can't lookat her.

(21:38):
I can't be here I just felt like I was like, okay, I just can't like I didn't trust anyone
And I think he was kind of making me feel that way, but at that point I definitelycouldn't see that.
Like it was just, I don't trust anyone.
I need to remove myself from this environment that feels toxic.
And that someone would go into my phone to get his number.
And again, who knows if that's real, but either way that felt weird.

(22:00):
Like a girl that I'm going to hair school with, you know this is my boyfriend.
Like we were close enough that she knew who he was.
And so that felt awful.
And I just couldn't stay in the environment anymore.
And so I dropped out.
I was like, I'm done.
So he won again.
He got dance out of the way.
Now it's hair school.
So I was done.
And so I just kind of like did the recreation job, whatever.

(22:23):
I worked at a college parking center.
It was just very casual jobs.
are you feeling at this point though?
Are you like getting depressed?
Are you sad about dropping out or are you just like, all right, move forward.
I'm happy we're together.
Yeah, I felt like I was kind of getting rid of people that were against me I guess is kindof the view that I had in my mind I definitely would not have told anyone that I was
unhappy.

(22:44):
Yeah And he never told me like you can't hang out with your family You can't do this, butI remember every time we would go over he's like they don't involve me They don't include
me well, and we would argue argue argue argue and so I would call them and I'm like, okayguys Can you just include him?
Like can you invite him to do this?
And I'd come up with like I can you take him to do this and they're like, okay We try toinclude him and he doesn't talk to us

(23:05):
And he's never like, what do you want us to do?
We're here, we're trying.
And I'm not telling them, we're getting in major arguments at home.
Like, could you just like involve him?
So it was very, and I think this is where I look back now and I am very triggered by theterm marriage is hard.
I hate that term.
I don't think marriage is hard.

(23:26):
I think life is hard.
I don't think your person should feel hard.
And I think the term marriage is hard kept me in an unhealthy relationship for such a longtime because as things progressed, I'm like, well, all marriage is right?
That was what I going through in my head.
I'm like, okay, but no.
And now being married to the man that I am, I would never say marriage is hard.

(23:46):
Life has been hard.
We have definitely had struggles and trials and we have things we don't agree with, butevery time it is just a normal conversation.
Like you and I are having a
hear that all the time and now hearing you say that, I could see that.
I could see why you would hate that.
hate that term so much because in my head that was always what I said that right alwayswhat I justified and I now I don't want anyone else to think that term and have that keep

(24:11):
them so I hate it I'm very triggered by that
can see why.
Yeah.
Especially if that's what was in your head.
Well, I mean think about the mindset if you're arguing and someone's like yelling it andyou are unhappy But you're like, okay.
Well, I don't know everyone else's life.
I don't know what they're doing at home Just like they don't know what I'm doing at home.
If every marriage is hard Why would I go and start over with someone else to do this withsomebody else?

(24:34):
You know, so I just kept going kept having babies
So he dropped out of beauty school.
He did all that shit with going to Vegas.
Did he ever own it?
Like anything that happened?
by it.
He always owned it.
He never hid it.
It was never anything that I like, I don't, I still to this day could not tell you how Igot to the point where I was like, okay, do that.

(24:59):
And I don't know that he ever asked.
Like it wasn't like I was giving permission by any means, but I don't know.
You didn't like throw a fit about it anything.
not.
never questioned it.
I never said anything.
And I don't know if I was just so confident in the fact that we were supposed to betogether or what.
Like I do try to think back now.
Probably.
a little bit of everything.
mean, you were so manipulated for years now.

(25:23):
And in those years that you're finding yourself, he's in the back of my head the wholeentire time.
And again, I'm not unhappy fully.
Like I'm still having babies.
I'm home with my baby.
the kids?
Like, is he an attentive dad?
he like being a good husband?
Looking back now seeing how my husband is now.
I would have told you before that he was good with the kids I would have told you likehe's present Okay now looking back and seeing my husband now works two full-time jobs so

(25:51):
that I can be home with our kids and he still is more present than My ex-husband ever wasoh I think that it depends on the viewpoint.
I think in that moment.
I would have told you that he was he wasn't bad at that time.
He was Fine, but he wasn't helpful
His job was to go to work.
My job, this part's fun too, I hate this.

(26:14):
It was my job to set an alarm and wake him up for work.
And then he would get in the shower and I had to lay his clothes on the bed for him andmake his lunch.
And then I would get the kids up and get them off to school and like keep house functionaland he'd come home to dinner and all the things.
I would do all the things like the house cleaning and the laundry and all of that.
Like that was all me.
And I prided myself in that.

(26:34):
I was so proud of the wife and the mom that I was.
I was like, I am kicking.
Right.
Did he ever tell you that though?
No.
It was just expected.
And I don't know that it was expected, but it wasn't ever think either.
And I think that that was something because I still do that stuff.
I don't lay out my husband's clothes or make his lunch.
But I like making meals for my family.

(26:55):
And I like being home and being a mom.
I like those things.
And so that's why I think I say those things can be taken and manipulated so easily.
Because I don't think being a stay at home mom is a bad thing.
I think that's a beautiful thing.
For sure.
But I think when someone
that doesn't appreciate the hard work that goes into being a stay at home mom takesadvantage of that.
think that that's where it can turn so.

(27:15):
And it definitely did.
And I didn't see that in it.
One, because I'm finding myself as I'm growing up and maturing and educating myself andlearning more things, but also I'm just with him.
Right.
So these years, is he ever aggressive towards To To the other, not to you?

(27:36):
Yes.
we were dating, and I do talk about this when I go and talk in high schools, there was onetime where his mom and stepdad came over to my parents' house and they were telling them
that they didn't know how to parent me.
Yeah, ballsy move.
Again, this whole family, very ballsy.
And my grandmother, who I love.

(27:56):
uh she is an angel that walks the planet.
She showed up.
I don't remember if she was supposed to come up or she just came when the interaction washappening and he got in her face and started screaming at her and I thanked him for it.
Oh.
because he was standing up for my emotion.
Standing up for you.
And I thanked him for it after and I still feel sick about that because I call that womanevery day.

(28:21):
Like I talk to her more than I talk to my mother probably.
Like just because I just always have had a very close connection and it still disgusts methat I thanked him for screaming in her face and that I never saw that as an issue.
He was always aggressive to other people, but it was never targeted to me.
And so he went through a lot of jobs throughout our marriage.

(28:43):
But he was always sales driven.
He was always a very good salesman.
Absolutely, he was.
And so he worked for corporate T-Mobile.
he, like, I always called him the fixer because he was really good at what he did.
Like, you could go, it was mesmerizing to sit and watch him sell something to someonebecause you wouldn't even know he was doing it.

(29:05):
Like, and I knew he was doing it.
And so to sit there and watch it, I'm like, but how?
I was just drawn to what he was as a human.
thought it was amazing.
And I do think that that is amazing as a skill.
Not many people can do that, and he could.
And so he would go around and just move to different store to store to store to store.

(29:28):
Is he moving around because he's not getting along with someone?
No, I do genuinely think that he was doing really well at this job.
He was really good at training people and getting them to sell and motivating them tosell.
And I don't know how he did it.
I never worked for him, but I know he produced sales.
I know that there are a lot of women that worked for him that have reached out to me andthey're like, he was always very flirty.

(29:51):
And I'm like, that does not surprise me.
Yeah, don't whatever because throughout our marriage at some point He told me that hewanted me to be a sister wife and I was like, um, no not my vibe I know like it was just
mind-blowing to me and at this point we have two kids and so Like I don't know I just noone in my family had gotten divorced so in my head that's not even an option No, I don't

(30:23):
know who's gonna say that
And you're only talking to his mom.
And I didn't even tell his mom about this part.
Like, who's gonna say that?
That is humiliating.
Like, that is...
I'm not surprised because of the other ship that we've already talked about, but god.
uh
inadequate and like I'm clearly not enough for you.
why are we like why and so I just was so confused like I was humiliated.

(30:46):
I was frustrated.
I did say no to that.
Which I'm like, okay look back.
I'm happy I said no to that.
did he respond to your no?
Because you never really said no.
but he was he wasn't like aggressive but I could tell he wasn't happy but this is whereit's funny now cuz then like a couple years later in the relationship he came to me and he
Remember he came and he was like, you know It has nothing to do with you.

(31:11):
This is everything to do with me But I just don't think that you're ever gonna make mefully happy I think that I need to date other women and I still want to stay married to
you I just think this is a me thing and if you truly love me, then I need you to let me dothis
And I was like...
Wow.

(31:31):
Did you let him?
Mm-hmm.
Stop.
No, I did.
I did.
It got so bad.
And he was proud of these dates.
Like, he was so proud.
So, fun fact.
So he's f***ing you.
Oh, this story.
You're gonna love this one.
This is awful.
This is where I talk.
Don't apologize.
I should apologize to my previous self.
Go ahead and do that.

(31:53):
So I had to get my tonsils removed for a second time as an adult.
Fun fact, if they don't get them all the first time, they grow back.
I didn't know that.
I didn't know that.
And so as an adult, I had to get my tonsils removed for a second time, which I mean, youalways hear it.
That's awful.
It was so bad.
So he took me same day surgery.
We get the tonsils removed.
He takes me home.

(32:13):
He left and went on a date that day.
And so I'm home with our kids right after surgery and he comes home and he starts tellingme about this date and how he made out with her on the car and how he's so proud of
himself.
And I'm like,
Congratulations?

(32:34):
Like, I didn't even know how to react.
was, like, I was so emotional and, like, I couldn't even wrap my head around what washappening because it felt so, I'm like, okay, not only did I agree to let you do this,
but, you didn't even stay and take care of me.
Right, you didn't do your part that you should do.
Right?
Like it was just like, I remember being like, I knew I wasn't happy, but I still, itdidn't feel like I had any option.

(33:01):
I hate that you didn't have like girlfriends or even guy friends whatever just That youwould tell them this stuff.
They'd be like listen.
This is not freaking normal, right?
that's the thing.
I feel like when it comes to stuff like this, who's going to go and be like, my husbandwants a sister wife, my husband wants to date other women.
That's humiliating.
I'd tell all my friends.

(33:23):
And I'd be like, am I crazy for saying no?
I like too, I was always so protective of him because of the dynamic of the relationship.
Didn't ever want anyone to have anything against him because if they did, that was anotherbattle I was fighting.
So I remember it was pretty early on in our marriage.

(33:44):
I had to ask to buy everything, which in my mind wasn't weird because he was the oneworking.
I was the one paying the bills.
I could see the bank account, but I had to ask to buy things.
And I never really thought that was weird until I was at Costco one day and I was with oneof my friends and I remember picking up the phone and I started calling him and she's
like, what are you doing?
And I was like, well, I'm calling him to ask if I can buy socks.

(34:06):
And she's like, what are you talking about?
And I was like, well, he said he needed socks and so I'm gonna ask him if I can buy socks.
She's like, buy the damn socks.
By him?
Him socks?
Him socks!
god.
I remember like I called him I called him and I asked I let the call go through and Iremember leaving that interaction and I remember thinking like Okay, well clearly that's
weird.
I never thought it was weird eh But I remember thinking like okay, it's weird, but Ididn't change anything about it There wasn't anything to motivate me to change it right it

(34:33):
was right functioning.
I was getting what I needed it didn't well
had already been grooming you for how long to like be a certain way.
His way.
so I just did.
Good Lord.
Yeah.
So that just progressed and stayed that way, right?
um So he got, he had multiple jobs.

(34:54):
moved throughout.
He had this one girlfriend.
We love her.
She followed us.
like, girl, and not like, such complicated emotions towards her.
I knew her.
I was friends with her in junior high.
She was dating him when I met him.
He broke up with her to date me.

(35:14):
They are now married.
So it wasn't shocking to me when they got married by any means.
This girl followed, she got him jobs.
He got her jobs everywhere we went.
We moved probably an hour and a half, two hours north from where we were living and shemoved up north and got a job.
the wife, he has her as a girlfriend.
But she was married, I'm pretty sure, at the time.

(35:36):
Like, she had her own relationship.
It was the weirdest thing.
And I remember he told me there was a bishop in his life.
It was, they lived in the neighborhood together.
And their childhood bishop, I guess, had called him in and was like, promise me you'llalways look after her.
She needs someone to look after her.
And so he always told me, like, I can't not talk to her.
The bishop told me I need to look out for her.

(35:59):
wonder if that's even true.
No, okay.
So now we're girlfriend and wife and other other girlfriends too.
Oh multiple.
They would come over for dinner.
I would make dinner for them and their kids.
They would have sleepovers at our house.

(36:20):
And my kids would never know like what they were and like he would never like do anythingwith them at our house.
He just wanted me to be friends with them.
because he just wanted to control everything with everyone.
was like looking back now, just am like, it makes me feel humiliated.
Like it makes me ashamed and guilty and humiliated.

(36:41):
I'm like, I can see why people don't talk about this part.
It's so raw and real and.
Well, it's probably hard for you to even look back who you are today and to look back atlike, how the frick did I ever put up with that?
But then you look at all the other people that are damaged too.
How did those women want to come to his wife's home, their home?

(37:06):
Makes no sense.
they knew he was married like I still look and I'm like, I don't know.
I feel like that's why I do have a complicated relationship with women in general justbecause I don't I'm like, how do you know that and go and like even if you think you're
gonna go and be friends with her?
you like, I mean, clearly I knew right, right?
But like, how do you go and be that person?

(37:26):
I just I'd never understood that.
So I just and nothing against them like whatever I don't know what he told them.
I have no idea what he told I know how
easily I was manipulated clearly look at all the crap that I let so I don't hold themaccountable for that at all but I think at the time I would have told you I did I was mad
at them right but I'm like he's the one choosing this like now I can look back and saythat but I think at the time I wouldn't

(37:51):
Yeah.
So at this point, I still don't think I would have told you I was unhappy or I was in anabusive marriage.
I wouldn't have told you that at all.
And he's still not physical?
oh
aggressive.
So I remember he started telling me things like, maybe you shouldn't talk when we're outin public.
I know you don't want to sound stupid.
And I'm like, you're right.
Thank you for telling me I don't want to sound stupid.

(38:13):
And I just would stop talking out and about.
Like, I wouldn't.
This man, my god.
like he was protecting me.
Like, my gosh, how sweet.
Thank you for looking after me.
And I remember as we would go to like doctor's appointments or things for our kids, hewould always come like after he's like, you were flirting with that doctor, that doctor
was flirting with you.
And I'm like, no, like, I was just asking questions about our daughter.

(38:37):
Like,
So he just wanted you to not speak, not go anywhere, not do anything, not have friends.
yeah, he would have me go to the gym with him to make friends with girls if he thoughtthey were cute He would be like, okay go make friends with her so that we would be friends
with them and he could start talking to them And it just felt awful.
I felt like I was a tool like at that point I would probably say I started to feel reallycrappy, but I still wasn't like I Don't know.

(39:03):
I don't know that I would have identified that I was unhappy I think right because I wasstill happy some of the time You know
So you held on to that.
So where are we age-wise now?
I'll do you guys.
So we got married in 2006, I guess like for reference, we got married in 2006.
He was finally arrested in 2021.

(39:25):
So we were together like almost 18 years total, like from dating, because we starteddating in 2003, I think.
Wow.
So we were together a very long time.
I mean, at this point, this is very slow burn.
we, very slow burn into it.
And,
So the first time that he ever got physical inside our home, well, actually that's nottrue.

(39:48):
The first time he got physical inside our home was with our son.
So our son and our daughter, we have, I had three children with him and I have a daughter,a son and a daughter.
So my son and older daughter were playing and he ended up hitting her, I don't know, likeas kids do, right?
Well, she came and told him, she's like, Cutler hit me, Cutler hit me.

(40:12):
Well, he decides that he's going to go parent this moment, and it's my job to come andstand by it.
And at this point, punishments towards the kids were definitely getting more aggressive.
And I was having a hard time supporting them, but I wasn't allowed to question them infront of the kids, especially.
We were a united front to the kids, period, the end.
Even if I didn't agree in the moment, I'd bring it up behind closed doors.

(40:33):
And I don't think that that's a bad thing.
I think that that's pretty normal.
But this was definitely hard.
Um, so he went into him and he punched him in the chest and it threw him across our familyroom into our sectional couch To show him that we don't hit girls.
Like that was how he parented that moment And I just stood there like I didn't know whatto do.

(40:54):
I didn't know what to say.
I didn't know how to react I remember my son came and like knocked on the door later and Icould tell he was angry And so I was trying to be so quiet because I was like, I just
didn't know it was
I was shocked.
I was like, I don't know what is happening.
like, my chest hurts a lot, mom.
He's like, I feel like it's caved in.
And I'm like, just go downstairs, lay down for a minute.

(41:17):
He was little.
I would say probably eight-ish, seven or eight at this point.
He's pretty tiny.
so things were getting more aggressive.
And I was required to be with him at all times.
If he was so he lost his job in early 2019 at T-Mobile.

(41:39):
He had been there for 10 years and they fired him.
And I think that kind of sent him downhill.
um He never did drugs.
He never was into alcohol, which I think sometimes makes it a little bit harder to becauseit's not like I can be like, he was aggressive.
You know what I mean?
Like, there was nothing that I could excuse it on.
It was just him.

(42:01):
And so um
As he lost his job, he definitely got more depressed and I could tell things were shiftingand the kids were like very much on their own.
My older daughter was required to like be there for them so I could be there for him.
So like things just evolved and escalated.
And I remember the basement of our house got a disaster.

(42:24):
Like it had probably been three weeks-ish since I had even been downstairs.
And we have three tiny kids, like they're destroying the basement.
You can barely see the floor.
Well, he decided they're cleaning it.
We're not helping him, they're cleaning it.
And we're not gonna speak to them, they are not going to eat or sleep until it is done.
Well, I think my oldest daughter was maybe 10 at the time, like not equipped to handlethat situation.

(42:46):
And I had to sit there and watch.
And I think we went a day and a half before we talked to the kids.
And it...
Were they just looking at you to save them?
crying.
And I asked them how like I go back and I've talked to them about it.
And I said, I'm like, did you guys know that like, I didn't support that.
And I just had to like, be there.
And they were like, no.
And it breaks my soul.

(43:06):
They probably thought you were just part of it.
Yeah, sorry, I'm gonna cry.
And it just breaks me to know that like, just had to stand there and let that happen.
And I thought that I was doing what was best for my kids.
Like, how is that what's best for my kids?
But that's
believed in that moment.
I did.

(43:26):
And so, you know, things are progressing and they're getting more aggressive.
And I remember...
thank you.
I remember there was one night that we got into an argument and he punched a hole in thewall of our hallway.
And I know the kids were awake.

(43:48):
I know that my sister told me later, like years, years later, that my daughter had textedher and was like, my dad's yelling upstairs.
And like, I know she was scared, but they came upstairs the next morning.
And I remember, ooh, sorry.
I remember he looked at them and he said, I hit the wall so I wouldn't hit mom.

(44:09):
And I looked at them and I apologized.
to them.
I said, I am so sorry.
I made dad so mad.
Like, I will try harder.
I am so sorry.
And I, I apologized.
And it just like, it, I don't, I didn't, again, like I think I was in shock.
I don't, how do you process that?

(44:30):
I didn't, I don't think I process.
So, um that I now know.
At the time, I think the timeline was very blurry, but now looking back, that's one of theonly videos that I still have.
Every time I would like go, we would go through things, he would wipe my phone of likepictures and things.
And so most things are gone.

(44:51):
But I do have a video of my daughter like jumping around and dancing.
And you can see the hole in the back of the wall.
And I show her the hole in the wall behind her.
And I show that when I go and speak at high schools.
And the date on there was September 11 2019.
And the first time he got physical with me was Halloween 2019.

(45:12):
So it was like a month and a half.
long.
No, but in the moment it felt like it was a lot longer.
Like living it, I don't think I would have.
didn't feel that at all.
So that was weird.
That was weird.
what happened the first time.
that one was complicated.

(45:33):
Um, sorry.
This one I don't know that I've ever like fully talked about publicly.
Um, so yeah, no, it's not that I'm not comfortable, but I think so often when I dointerviews because I don't ever want to come across as petty or like I'm holding on to
that victimhood mentality, I try to always have it be a purpose.

(45:54):
And this one
would never have that impression.
And so I try not to talk about it unless I have a purpose, but I think this is thepurpose, you know?
So em I remember at that time I was working at Revere Health and I was outside the homebecause he'd lost his job.
And so I had to go back to work.
We had a house, we had three kids.
I knew something had to happen, but I hadn't had a job in 10 years.

(46:18):
I had a high school diploma.
I wasn't going to bring in the money that we needed, but I was trying to figure somethingout.
And I remember...
I didn't trust his emotional state at that time and I could tell things were weird.
I just thought he was depressed because he lost his job and that's hard.
That's an emotional gut punch as a man and the provider of the family.

(46:41):
and being fired for him and his ego and shit.
And so I'm trying to just be patient and give him time, but like, I can only hold on forso long.
Like there's no way I'm gonna go into the workforce and even come close to making theamount of money we need to make.
So it's putting a lot of stress because I'm not home to take care of him the way that hethinks that I need to take care of him because I'm at work.

(47:03):
And then when I'm home, the kids need things from me I'm just being pulled in manydifferent directions.
And so I remember I had gone to work that day.
and I came home and no one was at the house.
And it felt very uncomfortable.
I was very uneasy with the whole thing and I kept trying to call him and he wouldn'tanswer his phone.

(47:26):
And I remember, I don't remember how long it took him to get home, but he finally camehome and he was really frustrated that I was nervous.
Like he could tell that I was like anxious that he was gone or like that something was offand he was mad.
And I was like, it's fine.
I just, I didn't know where you were at.

(47:47):
It's Halloween.
Are we gonna go take the kids trick or treating?
What's the plan?
I don't even remember how the argument escalated.
Sorry.
He...
He got to the point where he grabbed, he had lots and lots of guns.
um Hunting was big thing and so that was just normal.

(48:12):
And he had a handgun in our closet and he grabbed it and he was standing probably a littlebit closer than you and I are right now.
And he held it to the side of his head and he was like, if you really feel like I'm a badhusband and a father, I'll pull the trigger right now.
And I just remember like freezing.
didn't, I didn't.
dare have any emotional reaction.

(48:35):
I was scared that an influx in my tone, like I didn't know how to react.
I was terrified and I just stared at him and I was like, no, don't think that.
And he put it down and I just fell to the floor and I started bawling.
And I remember he picked me up by the back of my hair and started screaming at me andtelling me that I was selfish because he was the one hurting.

(48:57):
And I started apologizing to him for crying.
I remember he threw me on the bed and there was a lot of things that happened and hestarted recording me as we were going around the house.
It was the weirdest thing ever.
In my head I'm like, why are you doing this?
Like, it was...
probably obviously very emotional at this point too.
Is he just trying to make it look like you're the problem?

(49:19):
I think so.
Like looking back, I feel like that's probably what the intention was.
Yeah.
And so like we're going around the house and I'm trying to keep him focused on me becauseour kids are in the house, right?
But he had done that stuff all in our bedrooms.
They hadn't seen any of that.
So I'm trying to keep him very focused on me.
And we get into our room.
And I remember I was sitting on the edge of our bed and he said something to me and I juststared at him.

(49:45):
I didn't even say anything.
and walked around the side of the bed and like closed fist hit me in the side of the headand I fell down onto the bed and he got on top of me and started strangling me and he
started screaming, why won't you let me love you?
And that moment like will never leave my brain because it was the weirdest.
Like I don't even, I don't understand.

(50:06):
Like even now saying it to you.
like yeah.
make it make sense.
That you can't because he wasn't sane at that point at all.
crazy.
And so like, remember, I don't even know how long he was strangling me for.
He got off.
I don't think I lost consciousness, but like he was strangling me for sure and got off andI went and locked myself in the bathroom.

(50:32):
And at this point, I'm texting my mom because I'm in shock.
Like I'm, I don't know what to do.
And I think at this point, my family had known things weren't okay.
It's not, they're not going to know, no, but you think you know, right?
But he's getting crazy at this point.
Physically.
He's been emotionally.
And so he had told me in no uncertain terms, like I will go down by police assistedsuicide before I will ever surrender to anyone.

(50:59):
And so when I locked myself in the bathroom, he grabbed our youngest daughter and went inhis gun room, which I know had at least 10 guns in there.
Like there was a rifles, handguns, you name it, it was in there.
And I could hear him telling her she was never gonna see me again.
And so my mom is saying, I'm going to call the police and I am begging her harder than Ihave ever begged someone in my entire life.

(51:22):
Please don't.
And she's thinking I have to call the police and I'm begging her not to because in mymind, I'm losing my children.
And so we waited.
We just sat there like I didn't know what to do.
I'm not getting in.
Like what am I going to do?
Right.
I laid in a bathtub.
I didn't know what to do.
I locked myself in the bathroom and I laid in a bathtub like

(51:45):
I just was numb.
was in shock.
I had no clue how to respond.
I had no clue how to get out of the house.
I'm not leaving my kid.
because you don't know what his response will be.
No, you know yeah, what you just don't know Right
So I just felt stuck.

(52:05):
I felt hopeless.
I felt stuck.
I felt like I had no choice.
So was he still saying stuff where you could hear anything?
No, I just felt like I got to a where I couldn't sit out in the hall and listen to it.
And I myself in the bathroom and I just laid in the bathtub.
I don't know how long I was there.
I don't know how long I laid there.
I remember my oldest daughter came and knocked on the door.

(52:26):
uh Sorry.
I hate talking.
I hate and love talking about my kids because I think that they're amazing, but I hatewhat they've been through to become as amazing as they are.
em
I remember she came and knocked on the door and she was like, I've got a bag packed for meand the kids and I'm ready to leave when you are.
And I was like, please don't let him see it.

(52:48):
He's still in the house at this point.
I just remember being terrified and like, sure.
And I just remember saying like, if you feel like there's a time where you and Cutler canget out and he's not going to see you, like go run to the neighbor's backyard.
And she wasn't going to leave without me and I wasn't going leave without her.
And so we just sat there and waited and it was probably 1030 or 11 o'clock at night.

(53:09):
It was dark outside.
And I remember he sent her to ask me what I wanted from Wal-Mart.
And I was like, I'm good.
Like it was the weirdest, like, well, I don't, and I still feel like it was probably atest, total guess on my part, but he left the house.
Like he got in his car and he left.
And I left with the kids.

(53:31):
did.
As soon as he left the house, my oldest daughter came and she's like, he's gone.
And I got out of the bathtub.
I threw like sweat.
I don't even think I'm mad.
I threw clothes on.
I grabbed dirty clothes and we ran out of the back door into the neighbor's backyardacross the street.
And I called my mom and I asked her to come and get me.
And um
Thank God he wasn't doing a test where he was like right there parked down the street orsomething.

(53:56):
to take the other car.
Because the other car was still there.
I had access to it.
And that's why I didn't take it because I think he was sitting there waiting for me toleave.
I think he expected me to leave, but I don't think he expected me to leave on foot.
Right, and you went out the back door.
And was dark and so we just got into the neighbor's backyard closed the fence and myneighbor did turn the light on she saw us and I was just crying and I waved at her and I

(54:19):
was like we're okay and I've gone back and talked to her since and she's an amazing humanbut so my mom and dad picked us up and we went there that night and he did get home and
saw that we weren't there and I let him know where we were and I just said I'm not gonnatalk to you tonight I need some space I need some time

(54:39):
And he sent a lot of text messages that night and I didn't respond to most of them.
Some of it, some of it was like, you know, I'm not going to talk to you like this.
Like we could both get into like very much like trying to be careful of his wording ofwhat he was saying.
say sorry?
If he did, uh didn't ever get like, you know, when they talk about the whole like, I'm sosorry.

(55:03):
And like, lovey dovey.
I don't remember much of that.
I'm sure it was there, but it got to the point where the abuse was so intense that that'sthe stuff that sticks out.
I don't remember any of the, I'm sure it was there, but I don't remember it.
So, I mean, he's just saying, come out and talk to me, come out and talk to me.
And I'm saying, I'm not coming out to talk to you.

(55:23):
Like, I just need some time.
And he's like, come out and talk to me or I'm calling the police.
And I was like, I thought he was joking because I was like, uh OK, call the police.
Like, it.
And the next thing I knew, police officers were standing in my mom's family room.
And I was like, OK, well, I guess we're telling them what happened.
Like, what do I do?

(55:45):
Well, his story was that he was coming to get the kids to take them to school, and Iwasn't letting him take the kids to school.
That's why he called the police.
And I say,
No, this is what happened.
Well, we were in the city next to where we were living.
So they had to call the city that we were living in to report it or whatever.

(56:07):
So the police officers go over to him.
He's at our home at this point.
I'm still at my mom and dad's house.
And they say, this is what she's saying.
Like, what do you have to say about it?
He goes, no, no, no, that's not true.
I have a video.
Let me show you.
So he sends them the video that he had taken that night.
And in that video, it shows him pushing me back into a room and throwing a drink on me andnot letting me leave.

(56:31):
And that video was what got him arrested.
didn't understand that.
And I didn't understand the workings of how the justice system worked.
I didn't understand any of that.
I'm still in shock.
I'm still.
thought he was being a smartass too by sending in the video.
I still laugh at that.
No, that's not what happened.

(56:52):
So I just look back and I'm like, OK.
So he's arrested, he gets arrested.
He was, I think if he was arrested that time, he was only in custody for a couple hours.
His mom bailed him out almost instantly.
Of course.
That happened the second time too.
So the second time he was arrested, he was only in custody for like three days.
It was a weekend.
And that was the only reason why he was in custody for a couple days because it was aweekend and they couldn't bail him out until Monday.

(57:13):
So we got a second DV, domestic violence.
This is where it also gets fun.
So the kids and I went back.
Six weeks later, I remember thinking, like, I remember having the very definitive thought,it's not me telling him what he's doing wrong anymore.
The police told him what is wrong.
Like, he's got to know what he did was wrong.
Family, like, it's got to get better.

(57:35):
Like, he's got to know.
And I went back.
And it took me a while.
Like, it took me a couple of weeks.
But I remember.
I look back now and I think that I can identify why I wasn't successful.
I think there were two major factors, what made me not successful that time.
First, the victim's advocate that I had for that city was brand new and starting that day.

(57:56):
I'm the type of person, I like to know what's going on.
I like to know my place in things.
I like to understand it.
And the justice system is not clear.
You will not understand it.
And I kept asking, because I was being told by his mom and everyone that I was doing thisto him.
And I was like, okay, but I'm not.
Like I never said arrest him.
I never said I his charges.
I wasn't the one that said that.
No one even asked me.

(58:17):
So how am I the one doing this to him?
And I was so frustrated by that phrase.
And so I kept asking her, like, what's my part in this?
And she kept telling me, you're important.
I'm like, okay, well, no duh.
No, like I need to understand, like if I wasn't here, would all of this happen anyways?
Do you know what I mean?
Because I knew I wasn't.

(58:39):
Well, he sent the video.
And so she would never give me a clear answer.
She kept telling me to Google things.
Well, I don't trust Google.
I don't trust my own brain at this point.
feel...
our patients and everyone, whatever you do, don't Google.
That's yeah, so it was just the weird so it was hard because I didn't feel like Iunderstood what was happening I get it.
You're moving.

(58:59):
I heard she moved across the country.
It was a big I get it I again, but this is I would love to educate victims advocatesbecause that was huge for me That was so detrimental to my progress and staying gone from
whoa
The unknown is scary as hell too.
hard.
And then I moved back in with my parents, which I think even in a healthy situation is.

(59:21):
wait, so you, he gets his first DV.
Me and the kids, when my mom and dad picked us up, we just went and stayed.
We were there.
We didn't go back for clothes.
We didn't go back for anything.
For six weeks, we stayed with my mom and dad.
At this point, I had not decided I was divorcing him.
remember, thinking back now, I never once thought I'm divorcing him.

(59:41):
I always in my head was like, OK, I'm just going to give it some time.
I'm going to wait until I can think things clearly.
And I remember just the whole time.
I never once even let it cross my mind that I was leaving him.
I look back now and I'm like, why didn't I even let that be an option?
Not at all.
And that's the thing, will, and people ask me now, like, what can I say to people that aregoing through it?

(01:00:04):
You will not say one word to them that will convince them to leave before they.
when they're oh
So, this six weeks we're staying with my parents.
We don't go back for clothes, we don't go back for anything.
People are donating things to us.
My mom and dad are trying to get things for us and I...
you guys talking or seeing each other during these six weeks?
At the first, no.

(01:00:26):
At the end, his friend started reaching out to me for him, and I do, and I think it washim.
And I remember going over and I remember he listed our house for sale while I was gone.
And I was like, this feels crappy.
Like, I have no say in this.
This is where my kids live.
All of our stuff is still in that house.
And so I remember it was his friend that was selling the house that had worked with him atT-Mobile.

(01:00:48):
And I had met this friend.
So I reached out to him and I'm like, can you call me?
Because I'm not talking to him at this point.
I just like, I get him on the phone and I'm like, Hey, like, this feels really crappy.
Like, do I have any say in this?
Like, I haven't even talked to him.
What is he even listing the house for?
Like,
Now are you on the title?
I wasn't listed at all.
So he's like, we don't have to include you and I won't.

(01:01:10):
didn't, did you, he probably just didn't even think.
I didn't.
think about it.
didn't it didn't even cross my mind and So he's listing the house for sale I can see soI'm I go over and I'm parked like a block and a half away and I'm in a car that he doesn't
know and I remember just watching the house and Throughout our whole marriage.
He had had chronic back issues that he had gotten he had herniated discs and all of thesethings So he had always milked that I was required to rub his legs and he was on muscle

(01:01:35):
relaxers and the whole shebang right But I'm sitting here
And I'm probably like two blocks away in this dark car.
It's night and he's only moving things out of the house at night, which I thought wasweird, but he's going in and out of the house and he's walking just fine.
Like nothing, like carrying things in and out, putting it into a truck from what I cansee.

(01:01:56):
Cause at this point I'm not talking to him, so I have no idea.
So I remember later, I don't know if I did this multiple times, but I remember it was onthe same night that I had sat and watched him and it was probably an hour later, I agreed
to see him.
And this was probably like weeks before I went back to him or a week probably very closewhen I went back to him.
And I remember as he was walking down the road, I told him, I'm like, down the road.

(01:02:17):
And he was walking and he started limping.
It was like so dramatic.
And it pissed me off.
I wouldn't even let him in the car.
I didn't even roll down the window and he didn't know.
But I was like, no, you are full of shit.
Like I was so mad at him.
And he didn't know why I was mad.
He said, just let me in the car.
And I was like, no.
Like I was furious.

(01:02:38):
yeah.
But you didn't call them out?
I don't know if I didn't want him to know that I was watching because I still wanted theability to do it.
I don't know.
don't know.
But it just felt like I was being...
I felt crazy.
And I felt like I was trying to figure out what I actually believed and what I didn'tbelieve.

(01:02:59):
And so, I mean, a little bit later, I went back.
It was right before Christmas.
I ended up agreeing.
Like, OK, I want to make our family.
And it was hard.
going back and moving in with your family is not an easy situation.
It's not easy when it's in healthy environment.
I mean, I compare it now when you're a parent and you're parenting a teen, it'suncomfortable to watch them go and like explore and figure things out.

(01:03:27):
You try to control them and rein them in and control the situation.
Well, they were trying to do that to me, but I had just come from being controlled.
I didn't want to be controlled again.
And so I was rebelling against that.
was like, absolutely not.
I would rather go be with him.
If you're going to control me, I would rather go be there, where I'm still able to kind ofbe my own adult.
I'm not, I'm 35.
I have three kids.
I don't need you to do this.

(01:03:49):
And I don't blame them for that.
I think that's a normal parent.
parents, we just want to, and you want to save them and you know, just.
I don't know that I would do anything different if it was my kid.
don't know that it's possible as a parent.
So I went back to him and the second I went back, was bad.
There was not a good minute.
he had a defense attorney at this point and the defense attorney had his friend call meand tell me what I needed to email the city prosecutor to get them to drop the case.

(01:04:18):
And I did.
I sent an email to the city prosecutor saying, I will not support this case.
I want my family to work.
and they dropped all charges.
now looking back, I found out later at second arrest when we were at jury trial that-First, this is still first.
I found out later that I dropped it the day of his sentencing.

(01:04:41):
my gosh.
Which now I know is huge.
Had I just left that in place, the second charge would have been way more impactful tohim.
For sure.
I didn't know that at the time.
So I dropped it the day of sentencing.
Kids and I moved back in.
See, and it's too bad your victim's advocate wasn't telling you all those things.
Well, that's the thing, I just know.

(01:05:02):
that was not good.
Oh.
That's their job.
Well, and again, I don't know if I would have...
I don't know.
I don't know if I would have done it differently had I had all the information.
I don't know.
You can always look back and wonder, but...
Right.
So you go back.
He gets his charges dropped.
Was he like feeling full of himself after that?

(01:05:24):
yeah.
So at this point, he is monitoring everything that's happening.
So I had written a letter to the judge, and I didn't really understand what I was writing.
know at that point, they told me it was a victim impact statement, but I didn't understandexactly what that was at the time.
My victim's advocate wasn't explaining that well.
It was this 28 page letter of me dumping my emotions of what happened, because I'm justconfused and I don't know.

(01:05:47):
I'm like, OK, am I telling them what happened that night?
What am I?
So it's this big old thing of like, what happened?
And this is what I submit to the court.
Well, he sees it.
Well, when I come back, he tells me that I need to write a 28 page letter telling everyonehow I lied and how he's a good husband and a good father and how I made it up because I
wanted attention and I could never write.
I've noticed so many times, like when you've been sharing your story that you say, wasrequired to, you know, like that was like his demands.

(01:06:17):
Well, and at this point, he was physical.
like, knew what was like, I knew if I didn't do it.
And there were a lot of times and I say this all the time.
The words were so much harder than the punches.
Yeah, I would trigger him to hit me sometimes because I knew if he would if he just hitsme, it's done and that part's over and I we move on.

(01:06:38):
Words that he said to me and how I felt that stuff still is in me.
That won't go away.
So um
He tells me that he's like monitoring my phone.
He's monitoring my email.
I never.
Oh, I never ever, ever could.
I tried.
I tried because he kicked my butt multiple times for not writing that.

(01:07:00):
He's like, you can't.
He was just so mad.
He was so mad that I couldn't write.
You can write this letter.
You can write 28 pages.
Why I'm awful, but you can't write anything about how I'm good.
And I'm like, OK, well, be good.
All right.
I don't know what you want me to say.
I just couldn't do it.
Right.
Even though I knew I was going to get my butt kicked, my body would not.
Let me, I couldn't do it.
just physically abusive all the time.

(01:07:22):
So I think it was like less than a month after we went back.
So on December 29th of 2020 probably, this was right after I went back.
So yes, October 31st, I don't know, whatever year he got physical, it was, we went backright before Christmas.

(01:07:44):
And then on December 29th, 29th.
I think I don't even remember now I'm losing track of my days.
No.
Got mad and we were out in his car and I remember I tried to get out of the car and hegrabbed my shirt or something.
There was something that was pulling me back in the car and I was trying to get out but hedrove off and I fell out of the car and my foot went under his back wheel and he ran over

(01:08:06):
my foot and a neighbor saw and called the police and I just like limped in the house.
I didn't
like I didn't say anything I just like we were right outside the house so I just went inand he came back and he agreed to take me to the hospital but we went to a hospital it was
like 45 minutes north because the police had just interacted with him right and so he likeif we went to a hospital there he's scared that they're gonna say something or whatever

(01:08:31):
like
come to the police, come with a neighbor call?
is where it gets fun too.
So at this point we're gone.
We're at the hospital and a policeman shows up at our house and knocks on the door and thekids answer and they call his phone and he hands me the phone and he says make them go
away and I We were on our way to the hospital and I was so rude.

(01:08:52):
I was such an asshole.
Like I look back and I
I was mean, but I knew if I didn't make them go away, I was in more trouble.
I didn't know this person, but I knew what was going to happen if I didn't.
And so I told them that they were scaring my children and how dare they.
And it was awful.

(01:09:12):
survival mode yeah at this point
I know now that they went to like the hospitals that were local like a bit close andchecked, but I was up north.
He's like so calculated though, to make sure it's farther away.
So, I mean, it started very early, right after I went back.
What say when you said, what happened to your foot?

(01:09:36):
don't
I know that I came up with random things.
at this point, the kids and I have moved back in, but he had hired a cleaning company tocome in and throw away everything in the basement that was the kids because it was too
hard for him to look at.
So all of their toys, all of their clothes, all of their baby books, all of theirmemories, everything is in a dump somewhere that I will never ever get back because he had

(01:10:00):
to get the house ready to sell and he couldn't do it.
And so all of our stuff was gone.
My baby books that my mom had given me, like my blessing dress, all of the things, likejust gone.
Everything's gone, in a dump, thrown away.
No, but I'm like, even for your kids, like you would think some of their things were heldonto.
He didn't get rid of all of it, but most of it.

(01:10:21):
So we're back and we all just kind of feel uprooted.
No one feels settled.
No one feels good.
The house is sold.
So we're getting ready to move.
and we're moving to Spanish Fork, which is where my family is from.
So we're in the same city as my family at this point, but we have no communication withthem.
Really.
So he isolated you.

(01:10:41):
Absolutely.
When I went back, he was so frustrated that they supported me and he was just dead setthat I convinced them that he was horrible.
And I'm like, OK, well, I just told them what happened.
I wasn't convincing anyone of anything.
But that's how it came across.
So I wasn't allowed to talk to them.
Yeah, I wasn't.
And no one in his family was coming over.

(01:11:01):
And he had a friend that lived with us.
I thought that was interesting.
Throughout our whole marriage, he always had someone that lived with us.
And it was always one of his guy friends.
And in my head,
I don't, I was like, okay, well they're helping us with rent.
So it's taking pressure off.
don't know, but they always just had their own room and it was his friend and he wouldplay computer games with them or.

(01:11:22):
So we had this friend that was living with us in Payson that moved with us to Spanish forkinto this new house.
At this point, um, he has me switch to an at home position and it's COVID year.
And so all the kids are pulled out of school.
He everyone out of school.
all at home.
We're not leaving the house ever.
And throughout this year, he was physical with me more times than I can count.

(01:11:44):
Like it just was what it was at this point.
I kind of felt just hopeless, right?
I remember when I was working at Revere Health, my boss called me in and he was like, Iknow something is happening.
He was one of the only people to call me out in that way.
And I still love him.
But he would tell me, he's like, start another bank account, like divert some money.
And I'm like, he looks at my pay stubs.
I can't.

(01:12:04):
And when I went back after I left the first time, he took my name off the bank account.
So I'm still the only one employed, but my name isn't on the bank account.
I have no debit card.
I have no cash.
I have no credit card.
have no way to get- I know that I need to stay working because again, we have kids.
have things that I know he's paying things because we're- No, still- Just me.

(01:12:28):
So, and again, that's why having his friend there, I'm like, okay, great.
Like at least we're able to keep our house.
Like our kids need somewhere to be.
Where's the friend when a lot of this is happening?
They just supposedly mind their own business in their room or?
I did call him out in the body cam interview with the police.
I was frustrated.
I'm like, I know you saw it.

(01:12:49):
Whether you say you saw it or not, I know you saw it.
eh cause how do you not hear that?
I know my kids heard it.
Right.
How do you not hear it?
You know?
So it was just weird.
Like there were multiple times he threw me down the stairs or I slept outside in thewinter under a horse trailer that was the neighbors.
Cause he locked me outside and like he would get mad and like put all of my clothes ingarbage bags and then go put them in the neighbors garbage cans.

(01:13:11):
And the kids and I would just have to go find.
my gosh.
So they're really seeing stuff now.
Yeah.
And I'm so I'm like what I'm and the kids will just help me take stuff back upstairs backupstairs and So I mean things are bad.
I'm unhappy I'm I know things are bad at this point, right?
But I feel so stuck like how in the heck what I'm gonna do like I'm talking to no one Ihave a job, but I have no way to access any of the money I have no idea how much money is

(01:13:39):
in the bank account.
I like there was just and he never leaves the house We're always together.
So I went and I don't it did not help
that I left and went back because then when I went back, the kids, he told the kids thatthe kids betrayed him and that they abandoned him and that if they thought life was bad
before that they, he was going to make them clean because they had to earn his forgivenessbecause they abandoned him and betrayed him.

(01:14:03):
And so they were terrified.
And so I remember there was times when I would look at my daughter and I'm like, we haveto go, like we have to get out.
And she's like, I can't leave him again, mom.
I can't.
And I couldn't leave without them.
So we just stayed.
Wow.
So this is 2020.
So he's really in their head now too.
oh

(01:14:23):
Absolutely.
So, in October of 2020, I remember our house had three stories and the basement wasunfinished and that's where I had my work computer and we had a sectional that was down
there because we had a projector set up or whatever, but it was all concrete floor.
And I remember we were down there and, this one's a rough one too, sorry.

(01:14:48):
I looked at him and I was like, I know I don't make you happy.
Just let me leave.
The kids can stay.
Just let me leave." And he said no words.
Just stared at me.
Like, no words were spoken.
Just stared.
And I didn't know what to do.
It felt weird.
And I'm like, okay.
No.
And so I just started walking towards the stairs, like so, so slowly.

(01:15:10):
I just started walking.
And he walked around the side of the couch and he grabbed me by my throat and picked me upand then just slammed me backwards onto the concrete.
And, sorry.
I remember everything was just ringing.
Like I could hear everything ringing and I could see him screaming in my face, but Icouldn't hear what he was saying.

(01:15:33):
And I remember I reached back and I pulled my hand out and it was just covered in blood.
And there was like a carpet remnant that we had set up and I had landed like just on theedge of that.
And I remember he wouldn't take me to the hospital.
So he made me go upstairs and lay on an ice pack in our bedroom for like an hour and ahalf before he realized like, okay, she's dead.

(01:15:58):
Yeah.
So he took me to the hospital because it was COVID, they wouldn't let anyone in with me.
And so he told them that I was down in our basement trying to hang a curtain and I felloff a dresser.
And I got four staples in the back of my head.
I know that they did.

(01:16:19):
ask you, is this true?
And I still look back now like I talk about that one's hard because it was one of the onlytimes he wasn't with me remember laying in a room by myself and I was so incoherent like I
know that did a CT scan I know like they clearly took care of me but like I just rememberlaying in the room by myself That's all I remember and then when I was done they called

(01:16:43):
him to come and pick me up and the kids told me that when
I was waiting, like in in between time he went home and cut the carpet where I had landedand there was blood and started scrubbing the concrete.
No.
And I was just like, okay, so he came and picked me up and brought me home.

(01:17:04):
I just can't believe they didn't.
Were you crying or anything while you were in there?
You just like in shock.
at this point like I had been laying on ice for an hour and a half at home knowing likeI'm actively bleeding from my head like I don't know that I I don't Yeah
Gosh, just the fact that somebody didn't ask.
Say something, just ask the question.

(01:17:26):
My husband now was a first responder.
He was a firefighter.
And we talk about it all the time because I'm like, if you could just separate them.
Like, because he would say all the time, like when we would pick people up, you wouldalways have the inclination that that was what was going on.
You can't accuse someone, obviously.
But he said more often than not, that person's always requesting to come with the personthat's injured.

(01:17:46):
And we let them.
Like, they can have a person.
And an abused person is always going to say yes.
I would never have said no, don't come with Exactly.
right because you know the repercussions of that So he comes to get you back
and at this point, I mean, obviously there's stuff that we have to do to take care of thestaples in there in the back of my head and I cannot see them.

(01:18:10):
Well, he can't look at them.
It's too hard for him to look at.
And so he makes our daughter do it.
And I know she knew, like she didn't know, we didn't like, have so much guilt for that.
Like that's so messed up.
that I made my adolescent daughter clean staples on the back of my head that her dad gaveme?

(01:18:35):
Like, I know she knew.
Well, you can look back on that now and think that, but like all of us who've been inthose situations, when you're in it, you're just in it.
And you know, when people are like, why didn't you just leave?
Why didn't you just this?
Why didn't you just that?
Unless you've lived it and been there and felt that feeling or that numbness that youcan't speak, you can't leave, or you really think in your head, that's my only person.

(01:19:03):
Like, people don't understand.
No, and it's so hard to explain.
It's so hard to explain how you get to that point, right?
But again, I think if it was easily explained we wouldn't be talking today because toidentify right, right So this was October.
I think it was like the end of October 2020 And at this point I knew if I didn't find away out I was probably gonna die.

(01:19:26):
I had come to that realization I remember like coming to that resolution inside.
I was like, okay
I know I need to leave, I just don't know how to leave, and I didn't know if I couldbecause every interaction with him was getting more and more aggressive.
And at this point, he wasn't allowing me to sleep.
So I felt like a psycho.
So I was working like a 5 a.m.

(01:19:48):
to 2 p.m.
shift or something on my at-home job, and he would come down and sit next to me to makesure I'm not talking to people and telling them things.
So he would just sit next to me my whole entire shift or sleep on the bed behind me thathe had set up.
to make sure I wasn't asking for help or doing anything.
go up so you were like a hostage at this point.
jokes all the time.

(01:20:09):
was like, oh no, we don't, I'm not held prisoner anymore.
did that once.
I'm joking and I'm like, I'm kind of real though.
Yeah.
So yeah, no.
Wow.
The whole year, the kids and I were in the house.
We didn't leave.
If we went to Walmart or anything, we went with him.
I mean, that's when delivery and everything started.
There was no reason for us to leave, so we didn't.
And so.

(01:20:30):
you're not seeing your family?
this point I hadn't even spoken to them and over a year, like it had been a minute.
Like when I went back to him, no communication was completely cut off and no one in hisfamily is coming over.
Funny enough, he had had like an on and off relationship with his birth dad throughout ourrelationship.
When I got pregnant with our son, he had a relationship with him, but it caused a lot ofissues with his birth mom and she disowned him because he wanted a relationship with his

(01:20:57):
birth dad.
And so he didn't like that so much.
So he went back to her.
So it's always been kind of a strange dynamic, but that last year, he was one of the onlypeople that he let in the house.
And I still don't know why.
It was only like twice, but he let him in the house.
And I found out later that he was privately messaging my parents, letting them know that Iwas okay because I wasn't talking to anyone.

(01:21:19):
Like no one had seen me.
he making it look like you're the one that didn't want to talk to people?
Of course.
Yeah.
So, and again, I don't really have friends.
don't have, like, it was my family, but I've always really had just like a hardrelationship.
I've never been really close to any of them because I met him so young, but that time whenI would have built that relationship with my family, it was just non-existent.

(01:21:41):
So I'm just stuck.
Like, I just feel stuck.
feel, and his friend is in the house, but again, like, he's still living there.
Friend is still there for all of them.
This guy, who is this guy that he doesn't think like...
Let me help them.
in our jury trial against me.
We'll get to that point, too.
It's so fun.
Yeah.

(01:22:02):
things are obviously happening.
We're still like, there's only a few events that I talk about because there's justphysical stuff happening all the time.
Right?
But at this point, he's not letting me sleep.
I'm working.
And then after, the kids are doing homeschool stuff.
But then I was required to rub his legs or whatever it was.
I was just required to stay awake with him.

(01:22:24):
at all times because I abandoned him and caused him PTSD last year.
And so it was my job to heal him.
And so I couldn't sleep.
And so I got to the point where like if he would fall asleep, I would lay there.
I wouldn't move.
If I had to pee, I wouldn't stand up to pee.
I wouldn't roll over if I was uncomfortable.
Like I was terrified because if he wakes up, that means I'm required to do whatever thehell he wants me to do.

(01:22:47):
And so I just me and sleep do not get along.
We don't have a hell.
We should do it all!
But I mean it was just it was what it was I was not allowed to like if the kids knocked onthe door I had to have my older daughter take care of them.
I was not allowed to leave him to take care of them
so you weren't allowed a moment by yourself.
Ever.
Ever.

(01:23:08):
I really love baths.
I'm a bath girl, not to get clean, but to relax.
I love them.
And if like there were a couple of times where he would like go with his friend orwhatever and I would try and get in a bath and he would come home and if I got in the
bath, he would like punch me in the bathtub because I was being selfish.
So it just got to where I was terrified.
I was terrified to do anything.
And you've probably felt so alone.

(01:23:29):
Yeah.
All the time.
I mean I had my kids, but...
but that's different.
You're not even able to handle your own emotions and feelings.
Then you have kids to worry about too.
And at this point, I feel like they know what's going on, but they haven't seen anything.
This is all still behind closed doors, which is how it stays most of the time, right?

(01:23:53):
And so we hit Christmas.
And December 27th rolls around, and I don't remember what started the argument, and Istill don't.
But this was the day we went to jury trial four.
um It was an all-day blowout.
First, did you guys have normal Christmas?

(01:24:14):
Any other family?
Most equity had donated Christmas to my kids.
I don't know.
mean, obviously, I think my manager kind of knew what was going on.
I think when you're in an unhealthy relationship like that, it's really hard for it not toaffect other parts of your life.
You can see it if they're trying to be a part of your life.

(01:24:35):
If they've been through any sort of abuse or trauma, I think it's really easily spot So Ithink she kind of knew and she was really being like gracious and trying really hard to be
supportive and they were like they were great so December 27th um I don't know whatstarted the argument.
We were arguing about stupid things at this point.
Like it was just all the time.

(01:24:56):
I remember he was in the bathroom and I said something and I remember I saw the look onhis face change
And I knew, like I knew, and he got up and he hit me in the side of the head and I lostconsciousness and I fell to the floor.
And I woke up and he was sitting on top of me grinding his knuckle into my collarbone.

(01:25:17):
And at that point he stood up and I remember I crawled into the closet.
So he had like a big walk-in closet that was attached to our bathroom.
And so was trying to just like crawl away from him.
And he came up and he picked me up by the back of my hair again and I had like a desk setup in the back where I would sit and like do my makeup and stuff.
And he shoved my face into the mirror and he was like, look at that bitch face.

(01:25:41):
How would I love that?
And I like, I remember in that moment, like I wondered if like this was the time I die.
Like.
Right.
I could feel that it was more aggressive and I could see that the look on his face wasdifferent.
And like I could just feel that the interaction itself was just so much more elevated thanwhat it had been in the past.

(01:26:03):
And he threw me backwards and I remember I just huddled into a ball.
I grabbed my head and I just like huddled into a ball and he came over the top of me andjust started wailing on my rib cage like right here.
So I'm just in a ball.
I don't know, like 15 to 20 times.
think the police asked me to like tell me.
I don't know.
Like, I just remember I was like holding my head.

(01:26:23):
I had no idea.
Like I, I was in that moment.
I'm like, okay, like this is it.
and you're not even fighting back or anything and he just keeps...
He was very into bodybuilding.
was very into like self image and all of that.
I wouldn't have stood a chance.
even if there like it just there was no way that even if I wanted to.

(01:26:46):
even that rage that he was displaying to keep like if you were fighting back you know youcan see him even getting more angry I'm gonna hit her harder or whatever but just to keep
going and keep going yeah and you're just like crouched down protecting yourself
So he got up and tried to leave.
the closet area and I think my cell phone was on like our bedside table and he took it andhe threw it at me and I like I moved and it hit the wall behind me and shattered.

(01:27:16):
So at this point my phone's shattered.
I have not like his phone and then there's a there's a home phone that we had that was acell phone that was his friends and the kids would use that if we would like go somewhere
or whatever if they had to get a hold of him that was the phone they used.
So those are the only two phones left in the house at this point that are functional.
So he starts to leave our bedroom.
And know the kids are outside.

(01:27:37):
And so I go run after him because I'm trying everything to keep all of his attention onme.
So ah we walked just outside of our bedroom door and we have like this landing area andour kids' bedrooms are all right there.
And they were all in their bedrooms.
And we got outside and I don't know what I said to him.

(01:27:58):
They pushed me up against the wall and started digging his thumbs into my eyes.
my God.
My kids were standing right there and I could hear my daughter.
She was like four at the time and she was just begging him to stop.
And eventually he did.
even flinching at that though or the kids?

(01:28:20):
So he stops and he threw me across the landing into my son's door So I remember likestanding up he'd run he went downstairs and I remember I followed him downstairs because I
don't know what he's doing and again like right I'm terrified because my kids are allhere.
I know no they've seen it like I they were there I've seen them base like I have no idearight so we go downstairs to the kitchen area

(01:28:45):
And he was over by the sink.
And I remember I sat on the couch in the corner on the sectional because I was like, Idon't even know what to do right now.
Like, this is so much different than other interactions that we've had.
I didn't even know what to do.
And he walked over to me with a knife and held it at me.
And he was like, just go ahead and kill yourself now and do everyone a favor.
And I didn't even know what to do.

(01:29:06):
I grabbed like the I don't even know how I got it from him.
But I think I don't know if he thought I was grabbing it to like do it.
I don't know.
said.
But I grabbed it and I threw it across the kitchen and I got up and I started walking andwe had like the kitchen went into like this little entryway, right?
And then the stairs to go upstairs are right there.
So I don't know if he thought I was leaving.
I don't know where I was going.
I just was walking and he stopped me by the front door and he pinned me up against thewall.

(01:29:31):
And I remember just the look in his eyes was terrifying.
Like there was nothing there.
It was just black.
And I remember he asked me a question and he wanted me to answer it that I don't rememberwhat the question was, but he was so mad that I couldn't answer it.
And he went back and then just headbutt me right in between the nose.
And my son was sitting on the landing and watched him.

(01:29:54):
And I remember just, I sat down on this little like bench that we had in our entry and Iwas just like, I don't, like I knew I wanted to go after him because I didn't want him to
go and take it out on the kids, but I was just.
done.
Like, I didn't know what to do.
And so I went upstairs.
I I walked into our bedroom again, like going after it.

(01:30:18):
Why am I following this man?
I'm insane.
m
Well, you're worried about the kids.
And so I go in and I walk into our bedroom and he falls to the floor and starts telling methat he's having a heart attack and that I'm trying to kill him.
I was

(01:30:40):
Well, if you are like, need to call the police, like we need to call an ambulance.
And he's like, they're not going to do anything.
We just need to go to bed.
So I helped him get in bed.
Pretty sure I had sex with him that night.
And I remember, like my phone's broken at this point.
I'm in so much pain physically.

(01:31:02):
I don't even know how to function.
Like I told everyone I got in a car crash.
because my eyes are black, my nose has a cut, like I look rough.
So I just told everyone at my work I got into a car accident because I'm joining thesezoom calls where I'm like on camera and I had to come up with something.
And so em I'm just in the house with him.

(01:31:24):
Like I know there's a picture of me laying on the couch with him.
Like two days later, we're watching a movie with the kids.
What was I going to do?
Right.
Right.
Yeah, I'm trying to keep him happy.
I don't want that to happen again.
Well, it's even like with people like that, like abusers, you know, it's crazy that theycan do all those things and like an hour later be like, what's for dinner?

(01:31:46):
Yeah.
Like.
Like nothing is yes, and that's how it was all the time.
We didn't talk about it.
There was never any discussion or like, I'm so sorry I did that to you.
Like none of that.
No, none of that.
So I'm in the house and I start working again.
Like a couple days, I think it was like two days later, I have to go back to work.

(01:32:07):
I don't have time off.
I've got to go back to work.
So I'm going back to work and at this point he's up in our room and at lunch I was.
my lunch break, right?
It's around breakfast time for everyone else.
And I was supposed to bring him breakfast.
And so I brought up, I think it was like toaster strudel, I still can't eat toasters.

(01:32:28):
And I remember I brought it to him and I said something about I've been stretching so Ican rub your legs or something like that.
Like I indicated that I was uncomfortable in some way, or form, and he got pissed.
He's like, you're just trying to make me feel bad.
You're selfish.
And threw the plate of toaster strudel across the room at me.

(01:32:49):
And so I knew he was getting mad again.
I didn't know what to do.
I got our youngest daughter and I just held her because in my mind, like maybe it's not asbad if she's with me.
Like he's yelling at me.
She's laying in bed with me.
And it wasn't like I purposely got her.
She was just like, I wasn't going to remove her from the situation.
Cause at this point in my mind, I'm like, maybe this is how I survive.

(01:33:09):
I don't know.
Like maybe if I'm told.
won't do that in front of her.
Yeah.
yelling at me.
He's wanting me to get up and I'm I just am telling him no I'm not I'm not gonna come withyou and so he goes downstairs and gets mad and my older daughter hears and He gets angry
something starts slamming doors And I think he punched me one point that day or somethingthat the the details of that day were very fuzzy and at this point one punch is nothing

(01:33:38):
right like right is let's go right so um
he gets mad and goes upstairs and slams the door.
So my daughter at this point has come to the realization like we need to leave.
She's on the same page.
She knows things are getting worse.
So she says we can leave if we go somewhere that he's gonna trust and that he's gonna feellike we're not betraying him because that's what he told me.

(01:33:59):
The fact that he even got in her head like that, mm.
and I mean at this point she's, so right now she's 17.
She turns 18 in September.
So this was 2020, so five years ago, 13.
I mean she's a baby.
Very much so.
So she agrees.

(01:34:19):
She's like, we need to go, but we need to go somewhere that he's not gonna feel likethreatened by.
So he has this friend that he's known since high school and my kids know his dad and theycall him grandpa.
We've had birthday parties at his house.
He has been in our life the whole time.
And I am like, okay, that feels, I haven't seen his mom at this point in over a year.

(01:34:42):
I'm not talking to her anymore.
I am not talking to my family.
And I know that's gonna feel like a direct threat.
So I'm like, okay, well, this is my solution.
So I packed the kids up very quickly.
I load my work computer up into the car because I'm working from home at this point.
And I know I need to leave and be gone.
I know this.
So I know that I need to get enough.
with me that time to be able to get to where I need to go.

(01:35:05):
So I take enough and I text him as we're pulling out of the house and I say, hey, we'regoing here.
I'll talk to you, I like, we need some space.
Like we aren't okay, we need some space.
Well, he loses his mind to start swearing up a storm, calling me every name you can thinkof.
Like looking at those messages now, it's disgusting to read, it's awful.

(01:35:25):
And...
I go over there and I remember we knocked on the door and I haven't seen this man in ayear.
I haven't seen him since before the first arrest.
And he lets us in, but the first thing he says to me is, I can't believe you did that tohim last year.
You ruined his life.

(01:35:46):
And I just remember, I didn't even know what to say.
I didn't know how to respond.
didn't know, like, and I have black eyes and like a cut across my nose.
like, so how do you look at me and say that right now?
Like I was just so, so I didn't know what to do.
And he tells
That's the safe place for him.

(01:36:07):
Yeah, of course.
So he tells me, well, you can't stay here, but your kids can stay here.
And I was like, I'm, no, like, no.
And two seconds later, he walks in the front door because I told him where we were going.
And so I go to the bathroom because I'm just overwhelmed and I'm crying.

(01:36:28):
And later my daughter told me that she was sitting on the stairs because she wanted tolisten.
She's like, I was Snoopy Mom.
And I'm like, I know kids are.
Yeah.
And she said she was sitting on the stairs and she could hear him telling him that I wascrazy and that I should be put on medication and that I was just trying to ruin his life
and take the kids from him.
And she said they just sat there and had a whole conversation about how I was making itall up and how I had done that to myself to hurt him.

(01:36:54):
And he took the keys.
So I had like our SUV that we had when we were driving around with kids and that's what Ihad packed up and all of our stuff was still in that car.
He took the keys and went outside and I had come back out and he was gone for like 20, 25minutes, comes back and starts screaming at me, whatever, and then leaves.
But like, I don't have the car.
I don't know, like, I don't know where it's at.

(01:37:16):
I don't know what's going on.
And so then he's telling me like, your kids can stay, but you can't.
And I'm like, okay, well, I'm not doing that.
So I guess take me back to him, like take me back home.
And he did.
He took me back to the house and dropped us off when we walked in the front door.
And I remember when we walked in, like he was sitting there waiting for us.

(01:37:38):
And I remember he lined the kids up and he was telling them about all the chores that theywere gonna have to do to earn his forgiveness.
And if they thought life was bad before, just wait.
And I remember looking at him, I'm like, you're mad at me.
Like be mad at me, don't take this out on them.
Like be mad at me.
And he grabbed me and as he was pulling me, I could tell we were going somewhere.
And I, so.

(01:37:59):
I, we walked past the cupboard and I saw the home phone that the kids had used and Igrabbed it.
And he threw me out the front door into our concrete pillar and then threw a shoe at meand slammed the front door.
And so I ran around the side of the house and hid behind the air conditioning unit.
And I had had, so because I worked from home and I was working for a health company, youhad to have like a VPN login where you have authenticated on your phone.

(01:38:21):
So I had to have a phone to log into work.
So he had let me download that app.
Well, it had work contacts on there.
And so there was one friend who I had worked with previously at Revere Health who switchedto Health Equity with me.
So she knew me, but we hadn't seen each other or talked in a long time.
But I was like, okay, well, I'm calling her.

(01:38:43):
this is, we're calling her.
It was so late.
It was night.
It's always nighttime.
feels like.
And so I call her and I'm like, I need you to come and pick me up.
And she did.
And sorry.
um
I know she knew what she was walking into.
That's not an easy situation for someone to walk into, especially knowing how unstable heis.

(01:39:04):
I felt so guilty asking anyone because I knew anyone I asked was then in line of fire withme.
But she came and she picked me up and I left without my babies.
And it wrecked every part of me.
God, imagine.
Sorry.
You had to be able to get out of there though to be safe to then get them.

(01:39:28):
But it just felt like there was so much time between me leaving and going back that youknow what I mean?
Yeah.
I didn't trust anything he was doing.
So it was just crappy.
So she lived a town over from where we were at the time.
We went over to her house.
Sorry, I probably look a disaster.

(01:39:48):
And so I don't know.
Oh, this is how.
So that phone was his friend's.
And you can log in and like the one.
So you can log in.
They both had worked for T-Mobile.
His friend is still working for T-Mobile.
His friend got the job because he got him the job at T-Mobile.
So they know like how to log into the back end system, see who I'm texting and all ofthose things.

(01:40:12):
I don't know.
Like he figured out where I was at.
And I don't know if it's because the phone location was on.
Maybe I don't know.
Yeah, he found where I was at, knocked on the door.
came there.
knocked on the door and my friend was like just answered the ring doorbell thing and she'slike no she's not here like played dumb totally played dumb and she's like we need to call

(01:40:34):
the police i'm like no absolutely like please call the police right so she calls and againwe're in a different city like the whole thing that we're doing all over again so they
call spanish fork police and they say like hey we have this woman here she's not physicalinjuries like here we are this is what her kids are still in the home
Right.
So they go, and we're living in a cul-de-sac at the time, and the police have, like,they're in the cul-de-sac.

(01:41:00):
Well, he had come and tried to get me.
He tried to come find me or whatever.
So he's going back home.
He pulls into the cul-de-sac and sees the police officers and tries to flip and run.
Well, they had police officers across the street, and everyone comes and, they had, fouror five police officers in this little tiny cul-de-sac that were just, like, zooming in
around him.
Well, he's like,

(01:41:20):
No, I was just going to Walmart to buy speaker wire.
Like she's crazy.
She should be on medication.
It's upstairs in our bedroom.
Like actually like nothing is.
he's the master manipulator.
It's chilling to listen to that because you would like he just talks like it's
think he's the victim and you're just nuts.
Yeah.
She did this last year.
She's just we just are having problems.
She's been cheating on me for years and I just couldn't tolerate it anymore.

(01:41:44):
Like just and it was insane.
So they have him in custody at this point and they let me know that they have him incustody and they're like you can come and get your kids.
I'm like done.
I'm on my way.
So I go and I show up and knowing he's in the back of a car sitting right there and I goin and I have probably I don't know an hour hour and a half to get whatever I can grab and
like there's police officers there interviewing me interviewing the kids interviewing

(01:42:07):
Cause, sorry, can you bleep that one out?
Take a **** out of there.
Because he was in the house during the whole interaction.
He's there for here like it's so that whole day that everything like thumbs in theeyeballs headbutting me He's in the house playing his computer game.
I believe I don't think I talked about this I think I went up after I got headbutt I wentin and I asked him for help and I was like help me take me somewhere like just get me out

(01:42:33):
of this house and he looked at me and he's like What happened?
So he's just as much of a piece of shit.
yeah.
yeah.
Oh yeah.
I haven't had as much practice not saying his name.
Sorry.
So yeah, just frustrating.
Like again, how do you do that as a human?
How do you see another human going through that and not just say something?

(01:42:54):
Absolutely.
So at this point, like we're getting out, police are involved, whatever.
He goes, they hold him in custody.
They arrest him.
He goes to jail.
This is a Friday or Saturday.
He's only in jail until Monday because
are the kids like saying, yeah, he hurt mommy?
No.
oh I was terrified of police officers.

(01:43:17):
The kids were terrified of police officers.
And again, I think that's another thing that's so interesting because I think so manyvictims are very scared of law enforcement.
And I don't know how I got there.
Like I never had, you know what I mean?
was.
think it's because you don't you have different experiences and especially when you have amaster manipulator You don't know how are they gonna react?
Who are they gonna believe?

(01:43:39):
And I look back now and I'm like, okay, well, no wonder he was scared of police officersHe was doing multiple things that were definitely illegal and he didn't want me to realize
they were really right but in that moment you're not But we were all terrified so likewatching the body cam footage of like when they knocked on the door because they knocked
on the door to ask like to interview my children and he his friend answered the door withmy oldest daughter and Later he my daughter told me so his relationship with his parents

(01:44:04):
was super messed up, too They had a really messy
divorce and his, so this is the friend, his parents live together still, but the dad livesdownstairs, the mom lives upstairs.
And they constantly were like pinning the kids against the other parent, okay?
So then this friend is pulling my kids into the kitchen before the police officer getthere and say, you know, my mom twisted me against my dad my whole life.

(01:44:30):
And if you don't want to go with the police, you don't have to, you can stay here with me.
You don't even have to go with your mom.
This is your home.
and like coaching them before the police knocked on the door.
I was livid.
I'm like, you're not their family member.
You're not like, and so my daughter, like you can see she's physically scared when theyknock on the door.
She's like playing with her hands and like just was.

(01:44:51):
Yeah.
And so at this point, this night, no one said anything but me.
And I'm mad at this point.
Like I'm furious.
We're not like, I was sad and like even like listening to my body cam interview, all I dois sit and apologize.
Like I just sit and say, I'm sorry, I'm sorry.
I do all the time, all the time.
And there was one police officer, whoo, I'll cry talking about him.

(01:45:14):
ah He was there during the first arrest, because my mom lived in Spanish Fork.
And when he was arrested the second time, he was arrested in Spanish Fork.
And so when I was in the home, like getting all of the things out and like, I was so justnumb and in like, get things, like I wasn't emotional, right?
I was just.
like very focused on what I was doing and he walked in and he looked at me and he goes,you probably don't remember me, but I remember you.

(01:45:46):
And I said, you were probably at my mom's house last year.
And he's like, I was and I need to help you.
And I think it was like the most beautiful call out I could have ever had because Icouldn't justify it.
I couldn't say, you just don't know him or you don't understand the situation.

(01:46:06):
But I'm sure you weren't saying any of that at this point either, were you?
I still was apologizing and saying how much I loved him and how I didn't want his liferuined.
Like it's crazy for me to listen to that interview because I was mad and I knew I was donebut I still was very much like I don't want to ruin his life.
I've never wanted to.

(01:46:27):
for more than half your life at this point.
Absolutely.
And so it was just like, it was, couldn't deny the situation anymore, if that makes sense.
And then he got me in contact with the victim's advocate for Spanish Fork.
And she is one of the most amazing humans I've ever.

(01:46:49):
Whole different experience.
um She was there with me for everything.
She came and helped me move in to my new apartment.
and like came and sat with me and searched on my computer because I was scared to goonline because everything I had done had been monitored.
And so I know that sounds so dumb, but I just couldn't physically do it.
so like, yeah.

(01:47:12):
And so it was just, it was nice to have someone that I felt understood.
Cause I mean, I think so often when you have someone that's been through trauma and thenthey're going to people that haven't really been through that amount of trauma, they can't
understand why you're asking for the things.
They can't relive.
No, and it's like for example, I wasn't allowed to sleep No one knew that but then when Ileft he knew where we were living because at that point we were still married and I had to

(01:47:37):
tell him where the kids were and so he was just driving our apartment complex and So Ijust wanted someone to come and sit at our apartment so that I could sleep I needed
someone to watch so that I could sleep right and no one understood why they're like, okay,but just go to sleep
So it's stuff like that where I'm like, just don't think people understand like where itcomes from or why.

(01:47:58):
Like, you know, they even talk about that.
Like if, even when people, if someone passes away and you know, the wife or the kids,everybody goes back to, they're finding a new normal.
Like people don't understand how much it means to just come and sit with me.
Come and bring dinner.
Like don't even ask, just come and do it.
ask for help ever even though I hate asking for help like I don't like relying on peoplebecause they don't trust it like it's scary Too many times.

(01:48:27):
Yeah So at this point I was so lucky to have my victims advocate get me in contact with anonprofit organization based in Utah.
They're called the refuge and They were able to get me and my kids into an apartmentwithin six days of his arrest Wow, so
Now, all of that was in place.

(01:48:49):
All of that was happening.
were still like, because it was COVID, he was pushing in-person jury trial.
So everything was delayed.
Everything was happening.
But it was very slow.
And I think he was doing that because he thought I was going to back down.
I think he thought if he pushed it long enough.
it enough time.
And I was done.
Like I knew I was done and I think having my own apartment was huge because it allowed meto find my confidence in becoming a parent and my own human and my own person.

(01:49:18):
And so, um, so the refuge helped me.
They got me into an apartment because I had a job.
I just needed
to get like I needed my bank account and I needed time for like them to start depositingmy checks in.
So uh this is all happening.
We're in an apartment and he's got his defense attorney and he's still arguing everything.

(01:49:39):
He's saying that none of it happened, that I made it all up, that he wants 50-50 custodyof the kids.
And I'm like, absolutely not.
Like we aren't doing this.
And so we tried to do like a Zoom.
court thing or whatever, but he was like, no, I want in-person jury trial.
So I was like, okay.

(01:49:59):
Well, that made it so that the kids had to also testify because they witnessed it.
And I think that was another tactic that he had in hoping that I wasn't.
You wouldn't want to put them through that, yeah.
Of course not, but.
But at that point, I told them, I'm like, it sucks.
None of us want to be here, but he's not holding himself accountable.

(01:50:20):
And if we don't, then no one's going to.
Right?
Right?
And so we all, so it took us a year and two months to get to jury trial from the date ofhis arrest.
he was arrested January 2nd, 2021.
Jury trial was February 1st and 2nd, 2022.
And I mean, throughout that.

(01:50:41):
just crazy how calculated he was even and knew how to manipulate the system when COVID wasgoing on.
oh
his mom paid very good money for his defense attorney.
I know that she paid him to be there the two days of jury trial and he came down andstayed.
So, we went the whole way.

(01:51:03):
We went the whole way.
Wow.
Because he just probably, he's so arrogant, he thought he was just going to get out of it.
He would cave.
Most domestic violence situations are behind closed doors.
It's he said, she said, and you have to and it sucked.
It royally sucked to convince eight, I don't remember how many jury people we had that theworst day of my life happened.

(01:51:25):
And in that time,
And that you're not just this crazy lunatic and needs to be on meds.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, it was awful.
So we go to jury trial and in that we have guardian ad litem and we're trying to gothrough divorce things and at this point I'm qualifying for like free services through the
state and that's great.
I'm so grateful that they're there.
But because of how my case played out, it was almost more detrimental to me because so forour divorce, we couldn't go to divorce till after the jury trial was concluded.

(01:51:58):
my divorce attorney was a free one through the state.
Well, that it's I think it's called Utah Legal Services.
They're rotating through attorneys all the time because they're just coming in and going,you know what I mean?
That happens.
So think I went through like four or five attorneys before we even hit divorce.
And so as I was going through all these different hearings, no one really knew my case.

(01:52:19):
No one was really fully educated on it.
And so by the time we would get to things, it was like me going, okay, but wait.
And so it was just really complicated and I learned really early on.
Sorry.
I learned really early on, I'm just gonna hit that multiple times.
ah If I wasn't going to find a way to figure it out, no one was going to.

(01:52:39):
Like even if I had an attorney, I was the one that had to do the legwork to figure out howto get what I wanted.
And so we went to jury trial.
Me and the kids went, my two older testified, and he was found guilty on all five counts,and he was sentenced.
Did you get to see the look on his face?

(01:53:00):
I didn't look at him.
There was one part of jury trial that I looked kind of at him and I still, I don't knowhow I feel about it.
I've tried really hard to conduct myself in a way that my children will be proud of whenthey look back at all of this.
I know that people go through a lot of different emotions and they'll have those timeswhere like, okay, well I just wasn't in the vet's head space.

(01:53:23):
I had one of those and I made a TikTok that was very targeted towards the friend and Istill feel that way.
But I told him to, you know, do some things and they played it in jury trial and they werelike, and you took that down because his attorney told you to take it down.
And I was like, no, I took it down because I realized that wasn't how I wanted to presentmyself to the world or my children.

(01:53:46):
And I just sat there and I just stared at him.
And that was the only time I looked
I would have just wanted to see his face when they said guilty.
The second they did, I told my victim's advocate, I want to stay up and get it.
I want to hear the sentence and I want to leave.
I had been holding my emotions for two days because I didn't want him to see me cry.
I didn't want him to see me.

(01:54:06):
The first day I got up to go to the bathroom and he followed me to the bathroom.
Because there's the men's and the women's bathroom.
And my victim's advocate was nice.
She got up and walked and came and she saw.
But he would do stuff all the time like that.
And I know.
So we go through jury trial.
He's convicted and it has it's um assault, criminal mischief, then assault or domesticviolence in the presence of a child times three.

(01:54:36):
And then something for breaking my phone.
I don't remember exactly what like the verbiage was that what it was.
There was five counts, but they were all misdemeanors.
None of them were felonies.
And so it was just, they all told me like, he's probably gonna leave getting nothing.
Like this is his first charge.
So he's probably gonna get nothing.
Don't be surprised.
Right.
And so we went into sentencing and they gave him 28 days in custody with 30 days housearrest.

(01:54:58):
Well at this point he still doesn't have a job.
He's home all the time.
Right.
So I'm like how is house arrest even a
uh Right, Probation after?
So one year of unsupervised probation, they just let him do whatever.
He had to go to a class, like a domestic violence class or whatever, but it was via Zoom.
And the kids had gone over a couple of times.
We'll get to that part too.

(01:55:18):
And they would say he would join the class and then turn the camera off and go work in thegarage.
So I'm like, why are we, like, why do you even do that?
probably fully telling the truth.
Yeah, like why are we?
And so I remember calling the facility and I was like, if you guys are requiring this ofpeople, why don't you just have them keep the camera on to make sure they're at least
listening?
Like, why don't they get something out of the classroom that is on them?

(01:55:38):
And they were like, we feel really confident in our curriculum.
And I was like, I'm sure you do.
I don't.
And so it was just insane.
Like it was the weirdest life to just kind of sit with.
So I remember after his conviction, they wanted to give him 20 hours of community service.
And I was like, well, I work a 40-hour work week to take care of our children that he hasnot one time helped with.

(01:56:00):
So I feel like we could probably do a little better than that.
So they did 40 hours of community service.
was like, whoopty, or something.
I'm like, OK, awesome.
Yeah.
Did you feel like after that verdict came back were you like in the Twilight Zone?
Like didn't really know what to think, feel?
I think I had come to a really good resolution that it wasn't gonna feel fair.
I knew nothing would feel fair.
And so I had kind of just decided I was okay that it wasn't going to.

(01:56:24):
I just knew it was gonna feel crappy.
And I had kind of just settled within myself that it was gonna feel crappy.
So he goes through all of this and goes in, turns himself in, does his house arrest.
We go to divorce trial.
All right, so I think we're gonna take a pause here because you've got an incredible storyand it's just gonna be a little bit longer.

(01:56:47):
So let's do part two.
Okay, thank you.

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